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Should The Outdoor Industry Really Make Less Stuff?

Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) we're taking a look at one of the founding pillars of the outdoor industry: innovation.

Ever since the material, design and textile boom of the 1970's and 1980's the outdoors has been an example of how innovation could solve problems and fuel commerce.

But over the past 20 years there haven't been that many innovative breakthroughs even though outdoor brands continue to tell us every season that they have the next great thing.

Today on THE ROCK FIGHT Barry McGeough, who's career has been defined by leading innovation teams at brands like The North Face, PVH and Wolverine, sits down with Colin to talk about the state of innovation in the outdoor industry and why we need to make more stuff, not less stuff.

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Episode Transcript

Colin (00:00):

Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truths, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head, and today we're checking in on the state of innovation in the outdoor industry, an industry that defines itself by being innovative. But first, have you joined the rock Fight mailing list. Head over to rock right now and sign up for news from the Front Rock Fight's weekly newsletter. And then make sure you are subscribed to the rock fight wherever you are listening to my voice right now by clicking follow. These really are the simplest ways to support the show, so appreciate you doing it. Alright, let's talk about innovation. Welcome,

Chris DeMakes (00:37):

Rock fight.

Colin (00:41):

Tell me there's an outdoor brand that doesn't invoke innovation or technical acumen in its brand positioning or product marketing. And I'll happily call you a liar. The outdoor industry was founded and grown on the back of technical advances and textiles and design and materials, but a lot of those advances occurred a long time ago. And yet brands still every season roll out products that they tout as being even more capable of keeping you warm, cool, dry or safe. So in 2024, is innovation just all marketing fluff or is innovation still a real thing? But to find out, I reached out to Barry McGuff, currently the vice President of Innovation at the America Group. Barry has been a leader of innovation of brands like the North Face, PVH, and Wolverine, and he's here on the show today to talk about where innovation is going and how the outdoors needs to continue to lead when it comes to how we make consumer goods. Welcome back to the Rock Fight, where today it's the state of innovation in the outdoor industry with my guests Barry McGuff. All right. We are here today with Barry McGuff, who I just learned that I've been mispronouncing his last name pretty much since I've known him, but he has spent much of his career leading innovation efforts at outdoor brands. Great to have you here, Barry.

Barry (01:50):

Thanks. Awesome to be here.

Colin (01:52):

Yeah. I think the first time you and I crossed paths was actually in an innovative conversation. I did about a ten second, that might even be too long of a time. Descriptor stint at D three O and I think you were at Van Husen at the time.

Barry (02:05):

PVH, yeah,

Colin (02:06):

The PVH. Yes. Thank you. And then we were talking about a how do we innovate a new way to create a sports bra, potentially using D three O, I believe, as some sort of a way to control movement, I think. Is that right? Is that what we were talking about?

Barry (02:22):

Shock attenuating, fiber, yeah. Did you guys

Colin (02:25):

Ever get there with that?

Barry (02:27):

No, unfortunately, and I actually did reach back out to them because at Americo where I work now running innovation, we actually do a lot of sports bras and would license the Reebok brand. And the problem statement on bras is that the main way to control jog in bras is pressure. And that's really, really uncomfortable. You can't breathe, right? Yeah. So what if you could have shock attenuation like D three, oh, that could actually make brass comfortable when the breasts are in motion? It's an amazing math problem to solve. I still think there's a There. There.

Colin (03:03):

Alright, well, so D three O, if anyone's listening, make sure you get back to Barry. I will say that there probably no one wants tuned in to hear two middle-aged white guys talk about sports bras and breast movement. So we should probably move on to why I did. But the show, which is I think we have a real innovation problem in the outdoor industry. I think the outdoor industry was built on the back of innovation, sort of the influx of new materials and textiles coming out of the late 1960s and through the seventies provided these kind of young upstart brands, the North faces, the Patagonia and all old guard of the outdoor to gave them the ability to create all sorts of new stuff that could keep us warm, cool, dry and safe, and keep us outside longer than before. And that all kind of peaked around the turn of the century, and at least in my experience, we've sort of been drafting off of those fumes since then. There's some design innovation that continues, but mostly iterative stuff from established platforms. Again, I'm speaking very broadly and that's why you're here as an innovation person to chat about this. So when you look at the current outdoor landscape, where is product innovation happening today?

Barry (04:04):

So I gave a lot of thought to this question and because it's a little non-obvious, I think that everything that you said is true about our brands having started off incredibly avan, sheard, Royal Robbins, there's a lot of great technology that was really well intentioned and it became an explosion when I was running hard goods at the North Face, the outdoor look in the industry was the hot new thing. And I think that what's happening now is as these technologies become part of our society, we wear them in casual daily life, the look is commoditized. A lot of the activities are commoditized, and we're not in the new hotness anymore, we're mature. And so I think you starting to see these brands are mature, so you don't need a nsea jacket on campus anymore. That's not what you're looking for on campus. You're looking for something totally different. I think that if you look at how our industry is aging out, you can see or is kind of a shadow of its former self. I mean it used to be the super show. People that weren't in the outdoor industry would go to the or

Colin (05:23):

People being so jealous that they knew if I got to go to or it's like, oh man, you get to go to that.

Barry (05:29):

And now it's probably more like CES is the show to go to.

Colin (05:33):


Barry (05:35):

So I think that we're looking at commoditized brands and commoditized retail environments and commoditized experience. So you're not seeing things that are not incremental. There's an incrementalism because what's happening in general with our area of industry is we're a new branded era and commodity era. When I was at PVH, the CEO at the time, Ken Dwayne told us that if we didn't understand that America is a value market, that we should take our toys and go home. And we said, no, we represent brands, they own Speedo. I was running Speedo, we're a technical brand, we're technical swim. And so then we said, you're wrong. And he said, well, you will figure this out, the little pat on the head. And

Colin (06:29):

Then she came along and showed you what was true, right?

Barry (06:34):

So right now when we look at the American market, he's not wrong. What's happening right now is there are brands that are doing really, really well that are really connected to consumers. So brands that connect to consumers have almost no MSRP boundaries. So you look at on running, you look at Hoka, you look at Lululemon, Lululemon is growing 15% year on year. That's their CAGR right now over the last five, six years. But they're connected to their consumer from a product perspective and also from a digital experience perspective. Brands that are focused on staying right in the middle, and there's a lot of heat on Nike right now. Some of it's not fair, but what they did is they tried to say we're a solid a hundred dollars shoe. So now they're seeing a contraction. Brands that are understand the commodity level, they're going crazy.


What's happening right now at the opening price point everywhere from drugstore to off price to Walmart, target, dollar General is going through a little bit of a funny time right now, but if you think about the big box stores, they're growing, they're adding hundreds of stores a year. So we're looking at a really interesting place right now where the opening price point of the US market is growing. If you're connected to consumer, you're growing and in the middle there's this great sucking sound. And so that's why you see the VFS and the PDH is doing really having a hard time right now. We talked a second ago about Wolverine and how they're contracting and what's happening at the corporate level with multi-brand parent companies that really aren't connected to the consumer the way they used to be. And so there's a huge fire sale for brands right now.


There's a conversation that Timberland might be on the block from VF and if they sell Timberland, they're going to sell it for less than they bought it for six or seven years ago. It'll be less than the 1.3 billion they paid. So we're in a really interesting place from an outdoor perspective because we are commoditizing, we're seeing some interesting stuff. But your question was where am I seeing product innovation? I see a lot of product innovation on the buzzy brands like Co Epoxy, they're being really innovative on color. That's kind of an interesting place, but it's that doesn't really, how much longevity does color have the one place? I do see a lot of innovation though, and I know this has been a long answer, but the one place I see a lot of innovation is in footwear and primarily what's happening with underfoot technology, it's really arcane, but what's happening in polymer science is actually fascinating and that's really, really neat stuff.

Colin (09:32):

So because everything you're saying, I guess the reason I get frustrated with the outdoor space particularly is because of that history of innovation and the way the industry was built from the 1980s on, it was on the back of that innovation of like, Hey, we have this thing and you should have it in your life. And even if you're not going to go use it for its intended purposes, we still make you want it because it's kind of the cool new, it's cool and new and it's fresh and it will do something more than just be a shirt or a shoe or a jacket. So I kind of wonder listening to your answer, is this a messaging problem or innovation problem? Because you're absolutely right. If you broaden the definition of innovation from we are now weaving or knitting this fabric to do something with a particular outcome to hey, well actually the innovation here is a color opportunity, is a fashion opportunity, those kinds of things, there's probably more evidence of innovation around, but the brands all still kind of market themselves off of like, wow, man, we got the new base layers out this year and it's going to be 0.25% better than what we made last year.


And those of us who know who have been on the inside of the industry, I think it's really easy to call bullshit on that. But to your point, it's a value driven marketplace. People want stuff, they want brands. Even if the brand doesn't have a lot of authenticity, well if there's a brand on it, they're still probably going to buy it. Again, back to the fast fashion issue of it all and how that all plays into all of this. So is my beef more on how brands are messaging versus the lack of innovation that's actually happening?

Barry (11:01):

So there's a lot of meat on the bone, on the raw material side, but I think what you find is if brands are commoditized and it's part of our normal society and there's an outdoor component to things that we're thinking about, then one thing I do think is really interesting is that there are two areas where you're starting to see energy being put into the brands and retail experiences that we have. And that's really around two things, the experience and what's also what's happening on the digital side that plays into the experience. So if we're looking at a democratized outdoor environment, then I think I can look at things like hip camp, how does that in a really creative way, democratize being able to get into the outdoor. So that's the Airbnb of people's backyards and open spaces, things like rooftop tents, which is really neat to see a product perspective.


Lowering the barrier to entry is a really, really interesting place. So putting climbing walls in public lands, what Todd Spoleto is doing there, that's amazing, amazing stuff. Jimmy Chin and what he's doing with the edge of the unknown, putting that on Netflix and making it more and normalizing the experience to bring more people in the outdoors, the product part is incremental and there's a lot going on there, but I think when you think about changing the outdoor experience, making it more interesting, making it less intimidating, and also making it more social. So look how many people that are listening to this have Strava or an iPhone? Most I would say all, yeah, right? But if you think about what's going to happen next now that we can share those experiences and you can cog a gamification, which is goofy, but it is. I mean, if you can map your run, if you can share it with people, you can say you can know your time.


Then also what we can start to do is try to aggregate those things. So there's a really, really great company in Flagstaff called Dash lx, and what they do is they're a SaaS company, super, super switched on guys, and they're working to take all the information on your devices, tie it all together so you can see one view of yourself and then you opt into this. So it's all GDPR, opt in. This is all the technology that we're talking about, not insulation and sleeping bags, but technology. This is ones and zeros that it can tell you what you've done and then it can give you feedback and say, do you need better training? You ran an altitude next time, don't forget to do this. Bringing in ambient data from Google as well, and you choose to do this. It's all opt-in stuff. Brooks Run Club is using these guys prominently to be able to make people run more and run happier and be in the outdoors more.


So it's helping them sell more stuff in gear and that's great, but it's also changing the outdoor experience. So when I say democratization, I don't mean being goofy, I mean making it actually not like metaverse stuff, which will probably get there too. But to really, really making it interesting where you're going to start to use technology, we're going to use ones and zeros, we're going to use aggregated data. We will use AI to a tremendous extent to be able to make the outdoors more interesting and get more people out to, and that's where I see the innovation on the material science side is incremental. But I think the innovation is really around the experience, especially as we go back to that first thing where we've democratized the whole experience and these brands get mature, what do we do next?

Colin (14:57):

So that makes a lot of sense to me because if you go back to someone who was sitting in your chair in 1995, I mean, because I think you even said it, you alluded or alluded to at the beginning is that innovation is problem solving, right? What's the brief, and I learned this when I was working at Polar Tech, it's like what problems are you trying to solve? And then we'll try and give you something to help you solve that problem. And if the old problems were I want something that's going to help me stay dry, but also not let me be all sweaty inside, how do we solve for that? And then you have a material or a textile innovation that helps you with that. So as we've solved all of those problems, it's more like a shift of the perspective. What are the problems that we're solving in 2024? And to your point, they're a little bit more based on either, it could be fashion, it could be something is a little bit more on the surface of things, but then it could also be how do we get more people together? How do we increase participation?


How do we use innovation to solve different kinds of problems in 2024 versus what we were solving in 1995? Is that kind of what you're getting at?

Barry (15:57):

Absolutely. And our expectations, especially as every generation that is now going forward will all be digitally native. We're a transition generation where we spend time both in analog and digital. We see the value of that, but how do we make sure that we're, people are still going into the outdoor spaces that are digitally native. What are their expectations of the experience? What are their expectations around the brands that support it? And so we have to change. So when I got into innovation, I was solely a product person. I just ran product lines annually and season on season to increase the business in the outdoor space. But we started to realize that in order to maintain our competitive edges, we had to innovate. We had to look farther and farther out. Those are now what we refer to as horizons. So horizon one to horizon four from an innovation perspective, which is horizon four is big picture stuff. What's happening in the zeitgeist? Big technology that's not going to hit for five or 10 years to one years. How will quantum affect the outdoor industry? Don't know yet. And horizon one is what can we do about it today?


So when I started running innovation, the very first thing that I got hit with was, Hey, we're doing, this is the north face. This is a dozen years ago. And they said, we're going to do this thing called IO gear where we want to connect tents, sleeping bags and backpacks to electronic hard good technology because they had this dream that early iot

Colin (17:47):

Stuff, what data are you getting from your tent on your device?

Barry (17:51):

They wanted to put a fan and a light and a warming component

Colin (17:57):


Barry (17:57):

Different things. So you could have a light on your tent and then from a hundred meters away you could turn your turn

Colin (18:03):

On or whatever

Barry (18:04):

Find it. Or they wanted to put fans in tents to reduce condensation. That was not a bad thing at all. Interesting. It never went to market. They didn't know whether they were going to sell the hard lines components or whether they're going to sell or already integrated a jacket. Gift

Colin (18:23):

Is an accessory you add to your tent or is it something you build as a individual standalone thing with it already built in? Yeah, yeah.

Barry (18:30):

But from there, when I jumped over to Speedo, we did the Speedo, we did a misfit device that understood that when you put your hand over your head, that was a swimming motion and it was the first waterproof swimming wearable that could recognize your emotions and lap counting and stuff like that. And we put that in every Apple store on planet earth for two Olympics. And people ask me, why are you doing digital stuff? And it's the same thing. They asked me at Wolverine, why are you doing digital stuff? And I told him, nothing isn't digital now. Everything is digital from product creation to the consumer experience. So that's where all the innovation is, is really around what's happening on the digital side.

Colin (19:18):

Alright, let's get one of the big topics we touch on. We touched on it a second before we hit record. So we just described that. Okay. My key takeaways here are innovations all around us. It hasn't really slowed down, it's just different. It's not as much of a black or white. You can market this to the consumer. It's a fabric. It's a technical breakthrough that will have some sort of performance benefit like we've had in the past. That doesn't mean the innovation train has slowed down. It hasn't at all. It just has sort of expanded into all these other different ways that we make products for a consumer base, which we also have determined likes to not pay a lot of money for the stuff that they buy, which is a problem in and of itself. Let's go America, pony up, buy stuff that's going to last longer.


But we still have a lot of these problems. There's still, I feel like a stuff problem. There's still the way we're making things, we're making too much of it. A hundred billion garments annually produced across the globe for 9 billion people. But you maintain, you told me this, that it's not that we should stop making stuff or we're not making enough stuff or we should continue to make more stuff. Walk me through your thinking on this. Why should we make more when we continue to say, well, we have too much in a lot of ways, we have so much that we're offshoring stuff to other countries to dispose of it for us.

Barry (20:35):

So one of the things that is definitely a fool's errand I think is trying to change consumer behavior. That is

Colin (20:43):

True. Agree, good luck.

Barry (20:47):

So the sentiment is right. If we have too much stuff, let's just knee-jerk response, let's just have this stuff.

Colin (20:54):

Unless Taylor Swift said to do it differently, then everyone would just start doing it differently and it would be great. Come on, Taylor's true. We need you to kind of weigh in on this

Barry (21:01):

Tay Swift 2024. Right?

Colin (21:04):

Amazing. What would happen if that happened?

Barry (21:08):

If she ran for president,

Colin (21:10):

She could solve it all. Get Beyonce on board. We got everybody covered. We're in good shape.

Barry (21:14):

It's true. So one of the things and fully well intentioned what Levi's did a few years ago was they did a study and they said, okay, where's the real waste in denim? And they said the real waste in denim is water and water's a really big issue in the apparel industry. And they did an LCA like cradle to grave, and they said most of the water that's used in the lifecycle of a pair of Levi's jeans is in the laundry. So they came out with a campaign and they said, if you really want to be sustainable, buy Levi's and wash your jeans less. So two things. First of all, ew, second of all

Colin (22:02):

What I would salvage denim. I was always told my salvage, I don't wash. That's what you're not supposed

Barry (22:07):

To, right? But that's not for most people. And if I'm working in whatever doing real work, I think it's going to be pretty stinky. But the other thing is, what they did and why it was a huge backfire is they blamed the consumer and they said, oh, you're telling me that it's my fault and that didn't work. So they pulled that down immediately. So changing the consumer is going to be really, really difficult. The other thing is, so that's one part. The other part is just the economics of it all. The way we're set up right now beyond the user experience is that we have businesses to run. So on that note, I worked with a senior executive at socking and his idea to sustainability was really similar. He wanted to make a thousand mile shoe, and this thousand mile shoe would mean that you could run a thousand miles and not have it break down and that you wouldn't have to purchase a shoe for a couple of years, two or three years. And it's a lot of miles. That was totally antithetical to his job to run a business for revenue and profit. So he probably should have lost his job at that point just for saying that. Right. But the other thing is, someone

Colin (23:18):

Call it brave though, that he probably knew that that was a risk of saying that out loud,

Barry (23:24):

Right? So bold new statement, but the kicker is that shoe is still going to landfill. So that's all he's doing is punting, right? So we still have to figure out the William McDonough problem, the cradle to cradle problem. Once it goes to landfill, what happens to it? So we haven't done anything good. We haven't run our businesses. We're not meeting consumer demand. And you mentioned Shein and tamu, the reason why they exist is because we want to consume stuff. So fools errand can't change behavior. We can't change our current system of having these business fee business be in business for profit. We're pissing in the wind if we think we're going to change all those things. Totally. Yeah. So the real solution is get to the chemistry. That's why I'm excited about the molecular level stuff because if we can work at the molecular level and we can solve for circularity, then we can consume whatever we want because then it becomes a commodity that's endlessly recyclable and we're doing something about it, right? Instead of just saying, oh, so sorry, tamu, they're so bad and they went to landfill and we feel terrible about it. So turn it into a commodity that that can actually be used and resold and can create economic activity, commercial activity and circular activity.

Colin (24:51):

Isn't there another side of that coin that clearly I think we should do everything you're describing. Absolutely. If there's an innovative way on the product side to make things better and kind of solve some of these problems, absolutely. But then isn't the quicker way to that, that's where the regulation end needs to come into this, right? We're starting to see regulations coming out of the EU and laws passed in California and then the fashion bill in New York, which has had a tough time passing. We're even getting I think up for a vote in New York, but they're still talking about it. I mean, isn't that another angle to sort of shorten some of those windows of like, Hey, we're going to actually say what you can and can't do. Do you see those as inhibiting or helping the cause?

Barry (25:29):

So I think they're helping, and I do think that going back to that consumer expectation where we as brands wanted to do the right thing, but we're charging more and then figuring out what that means on the economic side and then having consumers expect it but not want to pay for it. So we have that paradigm, which is real. We are at a loss as to what to do from a sustainability side. So what's actually going to be driving sustainability will be legislation and everything you just mentioned, right? European Extended Producer Responsibility Act, the New York Fashion Act, what's happening in California, they're all real. And so a FA, the FDRA, these groups, these industry groups are doing a tremendous job in advocacy for brands and helping us navigate. But I can tell you the working groups that they have on all this countervailing sustainability legislation are sobering. It's coming really, really quickly. And brands that don't know that they're going to have to comply with progeny, digital passports, making sure that we're not uighur cotton or other suspect materials and that we can track end of life so that these things can be chemically or mechanically recycled, actually that's real. And legislation will bring on an era of sustainability that we haven't been able to do either from a brand perspective or from a consumer perspective. That's real.

Colin (27:09):

My instinct when you say we shouldn't stop making things is to say, well, you're insane. Of course we should slow down on making things. But the way you lay it out makes a ton of sense because the brand's responsibility is product creation and earnings. That's what they're there to do. And if it's the dysfunctional side is the regulation side, that hasn't happened yet to sort of keep in check what could actually happen. To put it all back on the brands, this is where I will defend brands. It's like you can't expect consumer demand and you also can't expect brands to say no to the capital that they're going out looking to make because what they're there to do. So the problems have to be solved across the board, but I think you're absolutely right that it's going to get a little messier probably before it all gets figured out. We got some tough sledding ahead of us.

Barry (27:58):

Ryan Geller was recently at Fast Company. They did a fast company week in New York last month and he was challenged about that and he said, we've changed our model. We have one stakeholder and that stakeholder is planet Earth and we have a fiduciary responsibility to our primary stakeholder. He basically in a nutshell said, we won't apologize for making money and making product, but we're going to have to do it in a responsible way. I thought that was really, really smart. I love what they just did. I'm absolutely enamored with it.

Colin (28:36):

What the fashion is not none of our business.

Barry (28:40):

Oh no, no. I love the campaign. That's awesome. There was a lot of, I hate campaign, funny arguments back and forth on that one. It's a

Colin (28:48):

Lie. Fashion is your business. They've been calling you patagucci for 20, 30 years. Sorry. Anyway, what is it? Sorry. Oh, you mean selling the company to Planet Earth like they're the stakeholder? Yes. Yeah, totally.

Barry (29:02):

I love

Colin (29:03):

That as an impact statement. That might be the most impactful statement. A company who has made a lot of impactful statements has ever made for sure.

Barry (29:11):

It was really brave and really, really smart. I mean, if you think about, it's basically doing what Getty did with art, which is creating a fund that will move forward in perpetuity to do something virtuous. And so they said it was, as long as we exist, we're going to expand. And then the money that they make will go back into all the things that they want to do, which is talk about food, talk about water. Their announcement last week with the, I think it was the Tin Shed Fund was really, really also really strong in talking about how can Patagonia and this fund support people that are living in areas where they're working to preserve their community. They're working to preserve resources and preserve culture. Really, really interesting thing to move forward with. So there's some big think in Ventura right now that's really, really impressive.

Colin (30:18):

No, they frustrate me because I think that's a little shows a lack of self-awareness when you talk about the fashion is none of our business as a campaign. At the same time, nobody else will put their money where their mouth is the way that they do and the initiatives that they take on. And I'm sure the amount of money that is given away versus the amount I've actually earned all of that stuff. And so I don't want to ever live a world without a Patagonia. Even if there are times when I'm just shaking my head going, what are you guys doing? Stop saying that. That bothers me so much. Anyway, but I guess the last thing to do is we're talking a lot of big heady topics, things that very inside baseball. I mean, if there's anyone listening to this who's a little on the periphery of that, is there any advice you could leave people with?


Is there anything that you do in your day-to-day with the knowledge that you have, which is more than the average bear on these topics that you can go down, these sort of can open a pandos box on yourself of, again, and I talk about this all the time of you start to feel guilty when you're at a baseball game and you want a bottle of water because you don't want to get the single use plastic bottle of water because you don't want to consume microfibers and you also don't want to just use a plastic bottle. And I'm like, just be kind to yourself, get the bottle of water. It's fine. But is there anything that you can kind of leave our audience with that might be an interesting to help them out in their day to day?

Barry (31:36):

Yeah, that's a really good question. So I feel really, really fortunate that I get to do what I do coming from a pure product place. The idea that I can spend my time thinking about the future and how to actualize the future, how to make it be something that you can touch or something that you can experience. I am just so amazed at what's happening in the startup community and what's happening in the innovation community on all levels. And so what I would encourage everybody to do is start to get, this is a longer conversation, Colin. We can have another talk. But the more I do this, the more I realize that I live in a bubble. I live in a bubble that is, I'm not thinking about things in the right way. And getting out of your bubble is really important. So break your mind, get out of your mindset, whatever the hell your mindset is, that's good advice. Get out of your bubble, break your mind a little bit, put it back together again and figure out what it is that's out there. Because we have our orthodoxy, we have the things that we cleave to.

Colin (32:58):

We'll wrap it up right there. I don't know what else I can add to this conversation. That was incredible. Thank you so much, Barry for coming on and sharing that if nothing else.

Barry (33:06):

Thanks. I appreciate it and it was a fun conversation. Thanks Colin.

Colin (33:10):

You bet, man. Good to see you.

Barry (33:11):


Colin (33:12):

Alright, that's the show for today. Big thanks to my guest, Barry McGuff for coming on and talking all about innovation. And before you turn us off, please make sure you are following the rock fight. Wherever you are listening, head over to rock and sign up to receive our weekly newsletter. And if you want to pick a fight with the rock fight, send your emails to My rock The rock fight is a production of rock Fight LL C. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And here to take us out is Mr. Krista Makes of Gainesville, Florida with the Rock Fight Fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters, rock,

Chris DeMakes (33:45):

Fight, fight, fight, fight. Go to the rock bike where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human power, outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting. Black Five, culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas in for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Welcome to the.


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