The Death Of Misery Marketing, Ultralight Goes Mainstream & Switchback vs. Outdoor Retailer
- 17 minutes ago
- 28 min read
Move past the PR speak and into the boardroom. In this episode of Outdoor Unfiltered, host Eoin Comerford breaks down the latest strategic shifts from the industry’s biggest players before sitting down with the "unofficial mayor of the outdoor industry," Lloyd Vogel.
On the Business Desk:
Amer Sports & Anta: A deep dive into the $6.6B powerhouse. Why are they raising $750M despite 27% growth? We look at the debt, the margins, and the "Arc’teryx effect."
The North Face vs. Merrell: Analyzing the pivot away from "misery marketing." Why TNF is taking a run at owning "Hiking" and what Merrell’s "Secret Garden" approach means for inclusivity.
The Insider Interview: Lloyd Vogel (CEO, Garage Grown Gear)
The Ultralight Takeover: Why "Ultralight" isn't a niche anymore—it's just the new standard for backpacking.
The "Boomer" Impact: How lighter gear is extending the longevity of the industry’s most loyal demographic.
The Trade Show Tug-of-War:Â An unfiltered look at Switchback vs. Outdoor Retailer. Can small, cottage brands save the traditional trade show model?
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Connect with Eoin:Â https://www.linkedin.com/in/eoincomerford/
Learn more about GGG:Â www.garagegrowngear.com
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Episode Transcript:
Eoin Comerford
00:00:00.160 - 00:07:07.940
Welcome to Outdoor Unfiltered, where we dig beyond the PR speak and see what's really going on in the outdoor industry.
Not just what happened, but why it happened and why it matters. I'm Eoin Comerford, a former CEO, advisor to outdoor brands and consigliere to our industry.
Today we're talking about new global ad campaigns from the North Face and Merrill and why Amer Sports is needing to raise some cash.
Later in the show, I'll be joined by Lloyd Vogel, the CEO of Garage Grown Gear, to talk about Ultralight going mainstream and what it's like to be working with both Switchback and outdoor retailer trade shows for this summer. All right, let's get into it and talk about the super interesting new global ad campaigns from the North Face of Merrill.
So let's start with the North Face. So their new campaign is called Never Just a Hike.
You can just search for it on YouTube and basically it's a UGC esque view into the unique experiences we can have and the connections we can make through hiking and being outdoors.
It's really a sharp departure from last year's We Play different campaign, and that was more of like a slickly produced ode to what I call misery marketing. You know, bloody fingers, you know, people on crevasses, you know, all that kind of stuff with a driving soundtrack and a voiceover.
Really kind of a classic outdoor marketing in many ways. You know, I would say this is equally aspirational, but in a totally different and frankly, much more engaging way.
It actually makes me want to get out and hike and spend time with friends outdoors. Overall, I loved it. You know, for a long time, the old rock Fight crew wondered, you know, which brand would step up and try to own hiking.
And really with this campaign, it looks like the North Face is taking a run at it. Okay. Switching to Merrill. Their new global campaign is called It Starts Outside.
This is a beautifully simple ad with a poem from the Secret Garden, which is a classic children's novel that explores the healing power of nature. And that's really the call here. Drop your laptop, leave your phone and get outside. Again, I love this campaign.
It's inviting and inclusive and it makes it clear that anything you do outside is an outdoor activity.
It's actually really interesting to juxtapose these campaigns with the recent Columbia Engineered for Whatever campaign, which was another very strong piece that we talked about on the rockvas. In many ways, it's almost the opposite of these two campaigns. It's wild, it's frenetic, it's Arresting. It's dangerous in some ways.
But in other ways, the messages are similar, which is that there is so much for everyone to experience in the outdoors, whether you're looking for excitement, whether you're looking for connection, or maybe healing. So here's hoping that these three excellent campaigns usher in a new era of growth in outdoor participation. Okay, on to our next topic.
Amer Sports is one of the largest and fastest growing conglomerates in the outdoor space. So why are they planning on a stock offering to raise 750 million in cash? Well, let's start with who is Amer Sports?
They are a conglomerate, and they have three basic segments. Technical apparel, which includes arc' Teryx and Peak Performance.
Outdoor performance, which includes Salomon and Atomic, and then ball and racquet sports, which includes Wilson and Louisville Slugger. Okay, so really a stable of a number of really, really strong brands. Now, who owns Amer Sports?
Well, it is a public company, but by far the largest shareholder is Anta Sports, and they are basically a Chinese powerhouse, and they're probably the largest sporting goods brand that isn't really well known in the United States. They do about 10 billion in revenue. They're third globally behind only Nike and Adidas in China. They're the largest player there.
They have 12,000 stores in China, which is kind of crazy. And they are the same Anta that just bought up 29% of Puma. So, yeah, they're a big player.
They're also the same Anta that just opened a flagship store in Beverly Hills and sponsors Kyrie Irving and Klay Thompson. So. So, yes, they are coming for the US Market, too. The next largest shareholder you may recognize, and that is Chip Wilson.
So, yes, that Chip Wilson, the Lululemon founder that basically accused some women of being too fat to wear his product. Yeah, that guy.
So, Chip, you know, even with Lulu stock being down 52% in the last year, Chip is doing quite well with this sizable piece of the Amer Sports stock. All right, well, how are they doing? Well, quite frankly, they are crushing it.
Total revenue for the last year was 6.6 billion, and that's up a whopping 27% on a pretty large base by comparison. VF Corp. Did about 9.5 billion last year gross margin, a very comfortable 57.6%, which is enviable, I would say, for a lot of brands out there.
And then each of the segments is doing pretty well. Technical Apparel, led by Arc', Teryx, as I said, was up 30%. Outdoor performance was up 31%.
And that was led by Salomon, who hit 2 billion in sales for the first time. And it wasn't that long ago that we were talking about Salomon hitting 1 billion. So yeah, they are really, really growing on the Salomon side.
And then finally on the ball and racket sports segment, which is led by Wilson, they were up still a respectable 13% pales to the rest of the organization, but most companies would gladly take a 13% growth on the year. Okay, so they're killing it. So why are they raising cash? Well, it's really all about debt.
So Prior to their 2023 IPO, they were sitting on a hefty 6.2 billion in debt. And that really came from the leverage buyout, which is kind of typical in these sorts of deals.
Ever since though, with their really amazing cash flow, the IPO proceeds, et cetera, they've been paying down debt. And so this $750 million will basically wipe out their long term debt.
Okay, so in sum, Mr. Sports is an absolute powerhouse in our industry, fueled by huge growth, healthy margins and almost no debt. So really, this is a sign to the rest of the industry. Watch out, these guys are coming.
Okay, well, it's time to welcome this week's guest and it is none other than Lloyd Vogel, CEO of Garage Grown Gear and unofficial mayor to the outdoor industry. Welcome, Lloyd.
Lloyd Vogel
00:07:08.180 - 00:07:17.380
Thank you. I don't know if I totally approve of that title, but I think I will accept it with a, a mixture of consternation and appreciation.
Eoin Comerford
00:07:18.020 - 00:07:24.100
And did you. With a similar mixture. Did you accept the award from the rock fight last year?
Lloyd Vogel
00:07:24.740 - 00:07:28.180
Yeah, yeah, that was pretty much a similar feeling, I think.
Eoin Comerford
00:07:28.180 - 00:07:29.620
What was the award again? Most.
Lloyd Vogel
00:07:30.260 - 00:07:31.620
Most overexposed.
Eoin Comerford
00:07:31.860 - 00:07:32.300
Yeah.
Lloyd Vogel
00:07:32.300 - 00:07:34.540
So I'm really continuing to overexpose.
Eoin Comerford
00:07:34.540 - 00:07:44.640
Exactly. I am, I am just, just fe. The. The. The. The Lloyd of it all. Yes. It's Lloyd's world that we're just living in it. Okay.
Lloyd Vogel
00:07:44.640 - 00:07:45.280
Oh man.
Eoin Comerford
00:07:47.520 - 00:08:06.040
So for before we get into, into, into what we're going to talk about here, I think people, you know, maybe if they, if they've been living under a rock, they don't know what the hell Garage Growing gear is. So could you, or GGG as it's known, could you explain what GGG is all about?
Lloyd Vogel
00:08:06.360 - 00:08:32.040
Yeah. We are a online retailer and platform for ultra light backpacking that focuses the vast majority of its energy on small and cottage brands.
So, you know, if you pop over to our website, you'll see a bunch of kind of nerdy stuff from mostly brands you haven't heard of. And products that you might not have seen before in person that you probably won't find at a bunch of big box retailers. So.
Eoin Comerford
00:08:32.280 - 00:08:32.720
Yeah.
Lloyd Vogel
00:08:32.720 - 00:08:43.580
And then we just like, do a lot of attempt to do a lot of modern marketing for. For small brands that aren't really able to figure out how to be able to do that particularly successfully.
Eoin Comerford
00:08:43.980 - 00:09:01.260
It is, it is fascinating a lot of the brands that you have, and kudos to you because I've had the chance to be involved with some of the seminars that you do for those brands where you're actually talking to them about the industry, ways to get past different challenges with being a small brand. So. So that's super cool.
Lloyd Vogel
00:09:01.770 - 00:09:09.770
Thanks. Yeah. You know, I feel like even up until two or three years ago, I didn't really feel like garage growing was part of the industry.
I didn't really understand what the industry was.
Eoin Comerford
00:09:09.850 - 00:09:10.290
Okay.
Lloyd Vogel
00:09:10.290 - 00:09:32.410
And I think so many of our small brands don't understand kind of the scope in which they're playing in.
And I think, you know, I don't know if you're hanging out in your basement sewing stuff, I don't know how important it is to know how small you are in the grand scheme of things.
But there's a lot to be able to be learned about how to be able to run a successful business when you are able to zoom out a little bit and listen to podcasts like this.
Eoin Comerford
00:09:33.010 - 00:09:54.370
Absolutely. I would recommend it, actually listen to my podcast.
So, anywho, with that as a backdrop, last year you posted a hot take on LinkedIn that ultralight isn't a niche anymore, it's just backpacking. So. Okay. Do you care to make your case for that crazy hot take?
Lloyd Vogel
00:09:54.610 - 00:10:10.830
Yeah, I'm happy to make my case. You know, is it a little bit of hyperbole? Sure. But is it LinkedIn? Yes. So it's supposed to be.
But I still stand by my statement of, you know, I, I first, Owen just wanted to kind of define what ultralight means within our context.
Eoin Comerford
00:10:10.830 - 00:10:11.390
Okay.
Lloyd Vogel
00:10:11.390 - 00:12:30.850
So when in backpacking we talk about ultralight, it is not something that is kind of this ethereal definition. It has a very concrete definition, and that is someone who has a base weight of 10 pounds or less.
So what that means is that minus consumables, so food and fuel, your pack and everything in it weighs 10 pounds or less.
Okay, so that is kind of a traditional definition of you can get into like super ultralight, which is 5 pounds or less, and anything kind of above 10 pounds kind of is in this ultralight space. If you get above 20. It's kind of more into like traditional. There is no like heavy weight backpacking necessarily.
But you know, I think I've got three key points for you here that I will, you know, rest my ultralight hat on.
And the first one is that, you know, just there are a ton of mainstream brands that are coming out with ultralight products from Black diamond has invested in mountain hardware, coming out with an Alula pack, the Kazam, that's, you know, inexpensive pack made out of Alula, kind of to ride the, the Durston hype train. And so you have some of these brands that are starting to dabble into this space.
Ospreys, some of their best selling packs are ones that kind of classify into the ultralight category. But then you also have brands which have kind of always been in this space.
The Nemo's, the Sea to Summits of the world, who's kind of, you know, largely their entire brand ethos is around ultralight. I mean, particularly Sea to Summit.
But Nemo, some of their most successful products of the, the Tensor and the Hornet, those lines are solidly used by ultralight backpackers.
Whereas, you know, I think you look at, on the other side of a lot of the brands that are kind of, that kind of grew up in that traditional backpacking space.
The, the Marmots, the Sierra Designs, the Celtics, the Gregory kind of have faded into obscurity for a lot of new folks coming into the backpacking space.
And a lot of these new products like we didn't see with the new line of big Agnes tents that just came out are very similar to some of the products that you would see within the cottage industry.
And it just feels like if these big players are identifying ultralight as a growth space, they are seeing that there is trends in momentum that are moving people from heavier to lighter.
Eoin Comerford
00:12:31.330 - 00:13:41.070
And hey, listen, I don't disagree with that at all. I mean, Ultralight is absolutely having a moment and a lot of the big players are looking to step into that. Okay.
But there's a big step between that and saying it is mainstream. I mean, my big pushback is, is that the products that these brands are coming out with, they're not exactly cheap. You bring up Black Diamond. Okay.
The lovely folks at Black diamond actually sent me. Yeah, they're deploy down 0.5 jacket for a little Christmas present. It was lovely then. This thing is. It's beautiful. A work of art.
It is a thousand fill power down. It is only 160 grams. It is just chef's kiss.
It also costs $549, you take that, you take a comparable, you know, like Patagonia down sweater, you know, it's $329. You take an REI, their REI, I guess, the magma jacket, $259. You know, yes, it's over twice the weight, but it is less than half the price.
Lloyd Vogel
00:13:41.710 - 00:15:37.670
I mean, that's a good point. I think it is. You know, we've seen REI come out with its own version of a quilt.
I think we've seen, I think we will see REI continue to come out with like, it'll come out with a ultralight down jacket within the next two years. There's no way that they don't. They're just not that hard to make in comparison to what they're already making.
You know, some like 850 fill, you know, 15 denier jacket will hit the market at some point soon and it will be lightweight or at least lighter weight than other things that they've traditionally had. And I think you're right.
Right now it is, you take, you have a lot of small cottage brands that are making products that do not require keystone margins, and then you have big brands that are coming into the market with products that are much more expensive, that do need to have pricing that's ready for retail. And it just feels really imbalanced at that at this particular point.
Niche brands are able to offer more competitive priced products than big brands, which is interesting, but I don't think that will always be the case.
I think like, you know, this is just the first foray of, I mean, like, you know, the Ghost Whisperer and Mountain Hardware, that's a product that has, you know, been in the space for a long time. But you're right, like the deploy jacket is a cost prohibitive product for a lot of people at this point. And maybe that will continue to be a thing.
But I think this is kind of them dabbling into kind of the. Trying to just go straight for the tip of the spear of saying, like, we can make the lightest down jacket in the market. And they kind of did it.
I think maybe Timbermaid makes a slightly lighter jacket than they do. But talking about niche, I mean, I think They've got a 10 week lead time at any particular juncture.
So I think if ultralight is a little bit trending right now, I still think we're on very much the front end of what that trend is. And it'll be interesting to see if the, if the big players in the space continue to lean into it over time.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:38.540 - 00:16:17.670
But, but I feel like with ultralight and, and believe me, I, I think it would be great if I were were backpacking. Obviously I would look to, to get the lightest pack I possibly could, but I could afford it.
But it does seem like there's always a bit of a trade off. It's either a trade off for cost because you're using Dyneema or titanium or you know, Polotech, you know, Alpha or whatever. Right.
So the very cost of materials or you're trading function potentially. Right. So it's, it's, yeah, it's super lightweight, but it's this tiny little stove that, you know, that barely holds a thing or whatever. Right.
Or potentially durability. I don't want to knock ultralight, but I mean these, there are these trade offs. So.
Lloyd Vogel
00:16:17.830 - 00:16:18.190
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:16:18.190 - 00:16:19.190
What say you to that?
Lloyd Vogel
00:16:19.510 - 00:18:58.650
Well, I'd say, you know, I think ultralight traditionally has been an expensive endeavor. I think it is like expense price or lightweight, like pick two. You don't really get, you don't really get all three there.
And I think that's still like, largely holds true.
But I do think that as we've seen the ultralight market grow, which it just has grown like, you know, it could not support a retailer like Garage Grown five years ago and it can now. And there is just like a bigger market share for us now than there was. So I think it is like, there is no arguing for me that it is growing.
The size of that market is highly debatable and if anyone knows about it, I'd love to know it because that would give me a lot of clarity on what the size of the Garage Growing gear could be. But I think as the market's grown, we have seen a lot of cheaper alternatives come into market.
I mean, we've seen you can buy a ultralight backpack off of Teemu, off of Alibaba. The number of like Alibaba ripoff quilts that exist are immense.
And there is like this entire kind of underground, like, don't look at the patents type of, type of ecosystem that exists for ultralight gear that is really fascinating and weird.
And there's kind of this entire culture of like budget ultralighters that it's not just about like how light that they can go, but it's how, like how cheap and how light they can go, which is a fascinating phenomenon. But you know, I think that that will only become more and more of a thing.
Like I think you are seeing people go, going back to sil poly and sil nylon from, you know, expensive dyneema because like Dyneema is never going to get cheaper. Really. It's just like the cost of the fabric is so much.
And so when people look at brands like zpacks and go oh my God, how can you justify this shelters like well it's, it's fabric cost, it's a ton of Dyneema and Ultra is expensive. And so I think like it, it is getting easier and easier and less expensive to be able to do it.
Like the number of you know, kind of 850 fill quilts with a 10 denier, like you can find ones for under $300 which is pretty like comparable market share with you know a, a Marmot or a, or a Kelty or even the REI on brand. And so like I think it is becoming cheaper and cheaper and it's also just, it's being marketed to more general audiences.
Like I think you know, it is when you are, if you go out looking to be able to find like the best backpacking gear at this point in time it just is ultralight stuff. Like the stuff that is Talked about on YouTube, the stuff that is talked about on Reddit.
You know the Reddit ultralight group is, is far more active than backpacking or camping group that exists out there. And partially that's just because it's the ferociousness of a niche.
Eoin Comerford
00:18:59.210 - 00:19:11.650
Yes, exactly. It's, it's, it's, that's all. You're almost proving my point there because if it's super active on reddish it, it is the nerdiest thing out there.
Come on. You know that's true, it's true.
Lloyd Vogel
00:19:11.650 - 00:20:10.900
And, but I think like we used to think even with Garage Grown that our target audience was just like the, the hardcore thru hiker. And what we've seen over the last decade is like that is just not the case. It is increasingly the mes of world. The world. It's the millennials.
I live in a city, you know, I, I, I, I bike to work, I play pickleball during the week.
I you know, play in my rec league basketball league on Tuesday evenings and I go backpacking twice a year and when I do that I want a super dialed kit. And I think that is increasingly becoming a more mainstream audience for what, for what backpacking is.
And it's not to say like you know, places like REI will always sell you know, the four pound Osprey packs because it just like is more accessible and that is totally fine.
But I think when people think about the best backpacking gear, I think 15 years ago that looked very different than it does now where if you're talking about like the best backpacking gear, I think that conjures up ideas of ultralight backpacking.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:12.100 - 00:20:55.910
Yeah, yeah. I mean, as I say, I think if I were to, if I were out there getting a kit now, I would definitely be looking at, at my pack weight.
I mean, it's such a determinant of quite frankly, the pleasure that you have from the experience. Right. I mean, come on.
Unless you're like rucking, you know, these people that, these crazy people that like want to have a big heavy pack to show how, you know, crazy in shape they are. Unless you're doing that, why wouldn't you want to have a lightweight pack? I mean, it just makes more sense now.
I would, I would say that I would, you know, probably have some, some trade offs though, for, for comfort, because that's the other piece. So there's, there's the comfort of being on the trail, but then there's the comfort at the end of day off the trail.
That's, that would be the big trade off for me.
Lloyd Vogel
00:20:55.990 - 00:21:02.910
Oh, and do you identify as a Gen Xer, as a boomer? Where do you fit generationally?
Eoin Comerford
00:21:02.910 - 00:21:06.710
Dare you, sir. How dare you even think that I'm
Lloyd Vogel
00:21:06.710 - 00:21:08.070
Gen Z. Er, who are you?
Eoin Comerford
00:21:08.230 - 00:21:15.750
I am. I. Okay, thanks. Yeah, okay, right. Whatever I am, I am a, A Gen Xer. An early Gen Xer.
Lloyd Vogel
00:21:15.750 - 00:21:15.990
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:21:15.990 - 00:21:16.270
Yes.
Lloyd Vogel
00:21:16.270 - 00:22:48.850
Okay.
Well, I would say, you know, one of the, one of the things that has oddly coincided really nicely with the rise in ultralight is this large generation of boomers who have spent a lot of time really growing up along the outdoor industry and suddenly finding themselves getting a little bit later into life and wanting to be, continuing to be able to do their, the hobbies that they love. And finding ultralight not just as a way to set fkts or go faster and longer, but just a way to continue doing what they love doing.
And honestly, I was shocked at a customer survey we did last year where like 24% of our customer base is over the age of 60, which just kind of like blew my mind.
But it makes so much sense because I think regardless of who you are, ultralight makes a practical sense, but particularly for folks who, yeah, you know, they can do a 15 mile day if they've got a 12 pound pack, but that's not possible if they're carrying 45 pounds on their back. And it really just extends the, the longevity of their ability spend time and enjoy time outside.
And I think that that is a, like, if ultralight in its Best form is allows people to access the outdoors more easily. And isn't this super pretentious, exclusive thing, which I think it has also the potential to be.
I think ultralight can be something that gets more people outside if it can avoid the pitfalls of being a bunch of Graham weenies who, you know, gear shame people into buying $800 tents.
Eoin Comerford
00:22:49.240 - 00:23:24.350
Right. Because those boomer folks, A, they have money, which again we talked about this is not this, a lot of the stuff is not cheap.
But B, also now they've got a lot more time.
I think there are a lot of folks that, you know, who've been in a job or corporate job or whatever that, that have this fantasy of spending three months on the AC and the 80 or the PCT. Right. That's what they're thinking about here.
And so, yeah, if that person has that money, they're, they're retired and they want to do that thing or they want to do the Camino, they're going to invest in, in the lightweight stuff.
Lloyd Vogel
00:23:24.590 - 00:24:29.360
Totally.
And one of the interesting things, and I think you'll, you'll appreciate this given, you know, the extensiveness of your retail background, but one of my biggest pet peeves is going to trade shows and having some sales rep tell me about their, you know, five pound ultralight tent that they're bringing to market and being like, can we stop just like beating that term ultralight into the ground? Like, or at least like, don't use it on me, use it on someone else who like doesn't have a really strong opinion about that.
But I know, I think we joke that there's something like, you know, there's green washing.
But ultralight washing is also very much a thing that is alive and well of people just calling everything, this is a ultralight X, Y and Z version of whatever and being like, okay, this has within this space a very defined identity.
And it is humorous that an idea such as ultralight that to me a decade ago felt like I had to shout into a void to have anyone understand what it was, is now being, you know, monetized by sales reps working for far larger brands at, you know, random trade shows. So what a decade we've had.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:30.000 - 00:24:38.080
It's interesting, I mean, you think back to a decade ago and, and actually Mountain Harbor, I don't know. Do you remember the, the Uli Steck collection?
Lloyd Vogel
00:24:38.480 - 00:24:38.800
No.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:38.800 - 00:25:03.680
From back in the day. Oh, yeah.
So Mountain harbor was actually really early to this and Uli Stek, the famous mountaineer, worked with them to design a whole Ultralight kit. Right. Cool. For now, this is more of imagineering kit. It wasn't backpacking, but Uli Rip was part of that process. They were just unfortunately from.
For man harbor, they're just a little bit early to the game on that front. But. Yeah, but getting back into it now, as you mentioned.
Lloyd Vogel
00:25:04.000 - 00:25:50.690
Yeah, that is, that is interesting because, I mean, like, even a decade ago, there was not like a big reason why the ultralight boom has happened is because of social media, because all of these small cottage brands that existed kind of in their own little bubbles all across the country can now sell all across the world via the Internet.
And it's kind of, it's given rise and visibility to this entire subculture of brands that just didn't have a platform other than, you know, a couple of their friends that they hiked the at with or to really be able to compete with.
And I don't know, this is not an advertisement for Garage Chrome, but, you know, we, we talk a lot about how like our job is not to keep brands in isolation, but it's to thrust them into the middle of the competition because a lot of these small brands can compete with the big brands if they have the visibility to be able to do it.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:51.090 - 00:26:09.650
Well, as I say, I, I definitely agree. Ultralight is having a moment. Garage Going Gear is having a moment, I would say too.
So kudos to you and you know, to those that are listening out there. If you do want to see where there's some really fun, innovative stuff happening in our industry, go to Garage Growing Gear.
There's some really great brands, really great stuff out there.
Lloyd Vogel
00:26:09.890 - 00:26:10.900
Oh, man. Thanks, Owen.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:11.850 - 00:27:02.660
Okay, so switching gears here for a little bit to, to any long time rock fight listeners, the whole trade show thing was a constant source of conversation.
And the interesting thing is you, Lloyd Vogel, Mr. Overexposed, you actually, you know, the, the two big shows that people are talking about a lot coming up this summer are Switchback, which is going to be in Nolan's in June. Thank you. And then Outdoor Retailer, which is going to be in your home city of Minneapolis in August.
Yeah, you happen to be intimately involved with both shows. Okay. Yeah. So now, without getting you in trouble, although I would love that.
But without getting you in trouble, can you share your experiences maybe and expectations with, with both shows?
Lloyd Vogel
00:27:02.740 - 00:28:14.820
Yeah, I'll try not to get myself in trouble here, but, you know, I try to be, you know, fairly honest about my takes on, on most things.
And, you know, I think if anything, trade shows have been such a topic of conversation because there is so much uncertainty around what the trade show market is right now. I mean there's some shows that just have tried and true. Like I don't question what GOA is going to be like this year. It's going to be great.
It has a very clear defined purpose. I know who's going to show up, I know who's not going to show up.
It's going to be a good show and Gabe has done a wonderful job of just having incredible consistency of that throughout the year.
And so with having two shows that both kind of feel like they're at inflection points, I mean switch back, having a great first year show, you know, having still room to be able to bring, needing to bring a lot more people to, to the event, but being able to rest on or to be able to really build off of what they're doing with Tre and, or kind of being at this, this huge inflection point of kind of needing to be able to do something differently, to be able to prove that it's worthy of continuation. I think, and I don't even, I don't think that's being harsh. I think that's just being, being truthful and I think like you know, to.
Yeah, so like we're working with both shows and that has felt at times a little like.
Eoin Comerford
00:28:15.540 - 00:28:22.180
So can you, can you tell us a little bit about maybe what you're doing with like your involvement with both shows just so people understand what that is.
Lloyd Vogel
00:28:22.660 - 00:29:24.490
So I'm not, I'm not formally involved with either in a, like, in any type of leadership role.
I, you know, for transparency was like offered to be a part of, of both kind of advisory boards and I didn't feel comfortable doing that because largely I feel like what Garage Guru and Gear's role is is to as unbiasedly as possible present opportunities to brands, give them the information that, that, that we have and let them make a decision for what is right for their brand and to you know, fully jump in with either show I think would potentially show bias that I, that I don't want and I don't kind of want that responsibility to be honest, because I don't know what's going to happen with both these shows.
So within Switchback we have a sponsored section that of about 30 spaces that's reserved for small brands from Garage Grown Gear and Founded Outdoors.
So that's, that's the, it's, it'll be, you know, kind of a front and center spot but it'll be clearly defined as a like Garage Grown Gear founded outdoor space for folks to discover smaller brands.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:25.370 - 00:29:27.890
Those would be 10 by 10 booths, that kind of thing.
Lloyd Vogel
00:29:27.890 - 00:29:52.010
10 by 10 booths? Yep.
Kind of like you're a very, very kind of traditional looking space within that and, and kind of coming with, you know, kind of traditional booth costs for that. I'd say within Outdoor Retailer we're having a, a pavilion that's going to be there that's going to be a lot smaller space.
You know, we're talking like three by three. Like stands for brands three by three.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:52.170 - 00:29:59.330
I mean, thank God we're talking ultralight, you know, product here because I mean, good luck selling a tent in a three by three booth. But. Okay, got it.
Lloyd Vogel
00:29:59.330 - 00:30:55.080
Yeah, it's small but the idea being that these are extremely low price point spaces that we can put a very large number of brands so talking, you know, 50 to 100 small brands in a kind of central location within Outdoor Retailer with the notion that small brands, you know, within or in the past have still had to pay a lot of money for the visibility that they got. And as. Or has, I'd say struggled to be able to bring the same scale to the show, that cost has become even more untenable for brands.
So this is I think, or saying like if we really want to be able to make a stand here and do something that's different, we're going to invest in newness and difference and really just kind of put a spot here that is full of a lot of really small brands that might not be found at other shows. So we're helping curate that in a similar way that we're helping to curate the, the space within Switchback.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:55.160 - 00:31:04.600
I mean you're talking like a few grand potentially for a booth there. So. Or is significantly less from what I understand for, for those booths, significantly less.
Lloyd Vogel
00:31:04.600 - 00:31:22.700
I mean again, the, the space to be able to tell a compelling narrative is way smaller. So if you, you know, you're, you're more highlighting products than you are highlighting a brand.
But it is an opportun and founder to have a space to be able to have meetings, to have people casually interact with their products and have conversations
Eoin Comerford
00:31:22.700 - 00:31:28.300
with buyers because you're talking 9 square feet instead of 100 square feet. 9 by 9 versus 10 by 10
Lloyd Vogel
00:31:28.300 - 00:31:30.140
if I do my pretty huge difference. Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:30.140 - 00:31:30.860
Yeah. Okay.
Lloyd Vogel
00:31:30.860 - 00:35:50.660
Yeah.
And it really is like, if you think about kind of like the, the displays that used to be kind of like award displays at or where it is like a, it is a panel that has a little spot to be able to, you know, put a Little banner that says your brand and maybe highlight for four or five different products if they're small. So it'll be something that yeah, is not a lot of space. But for small brands that just kind of want to be able to have a location.
I mean you, I, I know both of us were, were there back in the day with or where so many of our meetings happened in random staircases and like back alleys of or this is a space to be able to say okay, we don't need to like pin down a staircase. I can have something that is essentially like a full flag that lets people know where I am, they can see my stuff and I can hang out by this.
So it's I think a different objective and I think, you know, I look at Switchback and I say brands that are going to kind of be at Switchback need to be ready like pretty much ready for retail. Like kind of have enough of their systems figured out where they can kind of justify that boot space.
There's going to be a lot of bigger, more established brands at a place like Switchback than there are going to be at or so if I think you are not able to fill a booth, merchandise, a booth, kind of show up professionally in a very curated way, you're going to stand out against booths that are really, you know, that are, that are professionalized, that have big brand money behind it and designers I think or is can very much work for those brands that are, you know, just looking to open up a couple of doors.
But I think it is also a great opportunity for folks that haven't really boothed in traditional trade shows in the past and kind of just want to first foray into this that want to be able to talk to some buyers. But yeah, can't, can't drop a couple thousand dollars on a big booth space.
Maybe they don't even have the capacity, you know, to like pick up a, a bigger account if they did swing on by. But you know, they could pick up a, you know, a half dozen to a dozen specialty accounts and be able to support that.
So I think it's, it's kind of different expectations. I think you know, Switchback is, is maybe a little bit more of a like sure thing. Like the first year of Switchback felt very professionalized.
It did not feel like a first time show.
I know they struggled to bring the, the number of buyers that they wanted to the table, but I know they've been working really hard to, to change that up kind of in the off season, in between shows and I think like, just the caliber of brands and media attendance that you're going to have at Switchback, it is just going to be guaranteed to have a certain pedigree that I think is going to be high. I'd say with a show like Outdoor Retailer, I'd say there's a little bit more unknowns around it, like it's coming to Minneapolis. They are.
They are trying a million different partnerships to be able to. To make this thing appeal to a wide base of people. That's local partnerships, that's partnerships with the University of Minnesota, with.
With local nonprofits like Save the Boundary Waters, with folks like us at Garage Grown. It's, you know, paying for all of the expenses of any buyer who wants to be able to come.
And, you know, granted, they've done that for a number of years, but, like, they are really pushing the hosted buyer program. So I think what OR offers, I think is a.
At its best, a bunch of innovative small discovery brands that people don't necessarily have access to at other shows. And I think the fear with OR is that it has pool toys, pickleball, and brands that just do not necessarily play nicely within kind of the.
A little bit more of the core of the outdoor industry. You know, I view it as, you know, or still has a. Has a massive ability to be able to wrangle people. And I think Minneapolis is a compelling offer.
We're excited about the fact that it's in our backyard. So, you know, I'm betting on OR this year being better than it's had been the last couple years. I don't think it's realistic for either or.
Or Switchback to become the outdoor retailer of. Of 10, 15 years ago. I just don't see a show of that size and scale being a thing. But I could.
I could see OR being able to reinvent itself here because it's not going to get the big brands back.
But if it can develop a really interesting collection of small brands in the space, that could be compelling and a reason for buyers to be able to show up.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:51.060 - 00:36:20.930
Yeah, well, I'm going to be at both shows, so I'm really intrigued to see how things go switch back year two. Will they make the leap in terms of buyer attendance and other things or.
I actually haven't been to an OR since before COVID so this would be my first chance. I know, right? So this would be my first chance to really see. See the. The new or. And. And hopefully, you know, some. Some interesting.
Meet some interesting new brands. So that's great. Hey Lloyd, thank you for sharing that pretty unique insight between the two. So I really appreciate that.
Lloyd Vogel
00:36:21.090 - 00:36:21.730
You bet.
Eoin Comerford
00:36:22.050 - 00:37:10.120
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