Are Outdoor Stores Worth Saving? Plus: True Crime Reads & Kula Cloth Curiosity!
- colin7931
- 6 hours ago
- 40 min read
In this episode of Gear Abby, host Shawnté Salabert and producer Colin True take on listener questions that span the deeply practical, the unexpectedly philosophical, and the proudly awkward. From the future of brick-and-mortar outdoor retail to murder mysteries in wild places this episode is a reminder that the outdoors isn’t just about gear and destinations, but about how we relate to the systems, stories, and bodies we bring along with us.
Question 1: Are Outdoor Stores Worth Saving?
Listener Scott, a former co-op manager, writes in with a pointed question: why should anyone care if outdoor stores continue to struggle, when Amazon and cottage brands make gear easier than ever to buy?
Shawnté responds by reframing outdoor retail as more than a transaction. Drawing on personal experience, she likens great specialty shops to record stores—places for discovery, community, and human connection. She reflects on the loss of beloved regional shops like Adventure 16, and how those stores functioned as gathering places where expertise, mentorship, and inspiration were freely shared.
Colin adds industry perspective, arguing that while convenience has reshaped shopping habits, specialty retailers still serve a critical role. The future, he suggests, isn’t about scale it’s about intention. Stores that know their community, curate thoughtfully, and offer real human interaction can still thrive in a digital world.
The takeaway: outdoor stores matter not because they’re efficient, but because they’re relational.
Question 2: Outdoor True Crime Reading Recommendations
Next up, listener “Blame My Favorite Murder” asks Shawnté for recommendations on outdoor-themed true crime books—preferably the kind best read off trail.
Shawnté delivers a mini masterclass, rattling off standout titles that blend wilderness, mystery, and investigative journalism. Recommendations include deep dives into unsolved disappearances, murders in national parks, and the unsettling gray area where nature and human behavior collide.
Among the highlights:
Trailed by Catherine Miles
Trail of the Lost by Andrea Lankford
Lost in the Valley of Death by Harley Rustad
Pure Land by Annette McGivney
Nature Noir and Ranger Confidential for ranger-level chaos
Her main advice? These are books to enjoy somewhere safe, warm, and well-lit just not alone in your tent.
Question 3: The Kula Cloth Question (Is It Actually Hygienic?)
The episode’s most vulnerable moment comes courtesy of Shailene, who admits discomfort with the idea of reusing a Kula Cloth on backpacking trips.
Shawnté responds with empathy (and receipts) before bringing in special guest Anastasia Allison, founder and CEO of Kula Cloth. Together, they unpack how the cloth is designed, why antimicrobial fabrics matter, and how moisture management is actually more hygienic than the alternatives.
Anastasia explains how Kula Cloths are engineered with absorbent layers and silver-ion treatments to prevent bacterial growth, and why leaving moisture against your body can be far worse than using a dedicated cloth. She also walks listeners through realistic trail-cleaning practices, including nightly rinsing and a surprisingly effective drying trick involving long underwear and body heat.
The big point: hygiene in the backcountry isn’t about perfection; it’s about intention, design, and knowing your options.
Final Question: National Park Fees for International Visitors
The episode closes with a heavier topic: recent fee increases for international visitors to U.S. national parks.
Shawnté breaks down what changed, why it’s being framed as an infrastructure fix, and why the math don’t add up. She raises concerns about park underfunding, staffing cuts, enforcement logistics, and the broader “us vs. them” implications of requiring ID checks at park entrances.
Colin backs her up, pointing out that the U.S. absolutely has the resources to fund its parks without offloading responsibility onto visitors—foreign or otherwise.
The takeaway: if we care about parks, funding them needs to be honest, functional, and rooted in access not exclusion.
The Takeaway
This episode of Gear Abby weaves together commerce, culture, curiosity, and bodily realities in a way only this show can. Whether you’re mourning the loss of your favorite local gear shop, looking for your next unsettling read, or trying to make peace with pee cloths, Shawnté and Colin remind listeners that the outdoors is deeply human and that smart advice often starts with asking uncomfortable questions.
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Episode Transcript:
Gear Abby Theme Song!
00:00:03.200 - 00:00:06.760
You got questions going out of your mind. Someone with answers.
Shawnté Salabert
00:00:06.760 - 00:00:10.000
Now that's hard to find, like the what and the why and the how.
Gear Abby Theme Song!
00:00:10.000 - 00:00:19.840
Stuff works or just where to go. To avoid all the jerks. She's Gear Abby. Gear Abby. Gear Abby. Advice that doesn't suck.
Shawnté Salabert
00:00:20.320 - 00:01:08.000
Gear Abby.
Hello there, my outdoorsy friends, and welcome to Gear Abby, where we tackle the controversial, weird, obscure, obscure and taboo topics that other outdoor podcasts refuse to touch.
I'm outdoor educator and writer Shantae Salibare, and I'm here to answer your burning questions about our relationships with outdoor people, products, places and pastimes. And I want them all, because remember, there are no dumb questions, just smart advice. Alrighty, Roo. Here's how it works.
You're gonna send questions to.
Dear gear abbymail.com I'm going to answer a couple each week on the show with this guy, my partner in Gear, the producer of Gear Abby, and a guy who dreams of the day that I finally watch every minute of every Lord of the Rings movie. Colin. True.
Colin True
00:01:09.040 - 00:01:27.140
You know, Shantae, you're only hurting yourself at this point. Like, it's. It's. It's not even that. It's one of the most. It's the considered to be the best trilogy.
It's considered to be an iconic franchise on an iconic book series. It's not any of that. It's so in your wheelhouse.
Shawnté Salabert
00:01:27.140 - 00:01:34.540
Listen, it's only an iconic. The most iconic trilogy because they never made National Treasure 3. So let's just be real for a second.
Colin True
00:01:36.220 - 00:01:37.740
I'm anti National Treasure.
Shawnté Salabert
00:01:37.740 - 00:01:39.900
Well, you haven't seen number three yet.
Colin True
00:01:40.860 - 00:01:45.420
Just waiting to bring it all together. It's like the dude's rug just tying the room together.
Shawnté Salabert
00:01:45.420 - 00:01:48.980
This time he just steals the White House. Take it. Take it.
Colin True
00:01:48.980 - 00:01:53.100
Actually, I'm on board with the franchise. If we can make this happen and make it real.
Shawnté Salabert
00:01:53.100 - 00:01:57.850
I have ideas. You guys call me, okay? Disney, whoever owns it, owns it now. Call me.
Colin True
00:01:57.850 - 00:02:05.130
You know, as we're all avoiding the news, not see what terrible things happening, it's like, actually, we're bringing in Nicolas Cage. He's gonna fix this.
Shawnté Salabert
00:02:05.210 - 00:02:16.730
I would actually like if I could just have a personal Nicolas Cage in my life.
I'd like to pick which one, though, because, you know, kiss with a kiss from vampire Nicholas is a little different than like, you know, pig Nicholas. And we could go on.
Colin True
00:02:17.290 - 00:02:21.970
We can make Justin Hausman happy and have a Nicolas Cage draft. He's a huge cage head.
Anastasia Allison
00:02:21.970 - 00:02:22.410
Is he?
Shawnté Salabert
00:02:22.410 - 00:02:57.620
I didn't know that. All right, Justin. I Hope you're listening. I know he listens most of the time. We're summoning you for a Nicholas Cage draft on a very.
We'll figure out a way to shoehorn it into gear, Abby. Okay. Oh, man. Well, and speaking of the news. There is a news.
I know, I know you talked about it on the rock fight a little bit, but I just had to bring up Patagonia, the company named after Patagonia, the region suing Patty Gonia, the drag queen. Yeah, it's. That happened giving me like, Columbia sues Columbia vibes. Remember when Columbia Sportswear sued the university? I mean, I.
Colin True
00:02:57.620 - 00:02:58.420
This is worse.
Shawnté Salabert
00:02:58.900 - 00:03:22.660
I do. Now, here's the thing, okay? On face value, it's like, what the hell, Patagonia.
But when you read the details, you're like, Patty kind of dropped the ball a little bit. It's. It's. It's a trademark infringement thing. I mean, I think it's stupid, but I also think as a company, they do.
This is what companies do, they protect their trademarks. So it's. That's, that's why there's the dollar. You know, the dollar damage.
Colin True
00:03:23.190 - 00:03:23.990
And the legal fees.
Shawnté Salabert
00:03:23.990 - 00:03:27.350
Well, the legal fees are going to be pretty high, I'm going to assume.
Colin True
00:03:27.510 - 00:03:30.550
Patagonia, those lawyers are on retainer. They charge a pretty penny.
Shawnté Salabert
00:03:30.550 - 00:03:32.470
That's going to be what hits win in the.
Colin True
00:03:32.550 - 00:03:35.350
Have you seen the Merchant question?
Shawnté Salabert
00:03:35.510 - 00:03:37.830
Oh, yeah. I mean, I remember when Patty posted it.
Colin True
00:03:38.070 - 00:03:52.350
Yeah. It doesn't. It's. It's. It's so far afield from anything. Looks like a Patagonia logo. And the thing is like, this is just. We refer. If you listen.
Any listeners of the rock fight. You know, rip the rock fight. But anybody listeners to the rock fight. We talked about brand boners.
Shawnté Salabert
00:03:52.350 - 00:03:53.030
Oh, yeah, right.
Colin True
00:03:53.030 - 00:04:09.250
It's like, just like an unfor. This is such an unforced error. You talk about people that are aligned philosophically. And I get it.
At Polartech, we had to frequently sue other textile makers. Cause they were making stuff people like Polar Tech on. You can't do.
Shawnté Salabert
00:04:10.130 - 00:04:14.690
That's my special brand Polar text. That's my drag king name. Polartext.
Colin True
00:04:15.410 - 00:04:44.670
That's a good.
I would go see you, but this is a thing where, like, this is the perfect opportunity for alignment and reaching out and being like, hey, you know what? We're gonna licen. License you. This is what producer Dave said. You're going to license you for a dollar so you can make your stuff. You know, just.
There's. We. They could underwrite the entire merch line. It wouldn't even be a. It wouldn't be a quarter of a drop of the bucket for what it would cost them.
It just. It's so dumb and so blind. You just have blinders on, man. What are you doing? Patagonia.
Anastasia Allison
00:04:44.670 - 00:04:44.830
Yeah.
Shawnté Salabert
00:04:44.830 - 00:05:17.960
And I. I know I don't get, like, we don't.
I don't know, behind the scenes, like, it seems weird to me that they would have spent all that time talking to Patty back in the day and then not just talk to Patty now. So who knows? I don't know all the details. It did rub me the wrong way. But. Yeah, I don't know. Patti does some amazing stuff. Always raising money.
They do different, you know, organizations and stuff. Like I. And that's what that clothing was, by the way. They were selling the clothing to raise money for. For charity.
So it wasn't to line Patty's pockets. So it's very interesting choice. Patagonia.
Colin True
00:05:17.960 - 00:05:25.720
It's just. I don't expect this from Patagonia. A lot of other outdoor brands, if I saw this be like, eh, yeah, that stacks up.
But like, this one is like, dude, Patagonia, come on.
Shawnté Salabert
00:05:25.720 - 00:05:27.200
I would expect it from Columbia.
Colin True
00:05:28.140 - 00:05:29.100
Yeah, kinda.
Shawnté Salabert
00:05:31.180 - 00:06:13.820
I love. I love a little. You know, the thing is now, Colin, people who listen, who know the rock fight, this is the only place you get Colin now.
So you're all gonna have to listen to Gear Abby. People who have no idea what the rock fight is, buckle up.
That's right, those of you who do not know what the rock fight is, it was RIP an amazing outdoor industry podcast, you know, co founded, helmed by Colin. Anyway, so this means we're gonna open the gates a little bit on gear. Abby. I think we should try to get some more. You know, listen, industry folks.
Send us your questions too. They can also. They could be about anything. But if you have questions you think would appeal to a broader audience, send them in.
I want them, like, make your case to come on the show. I want it. Send us your advertising dollars. I want it.
Colin True
00:06:14.300 - 00:06:15.340
We definitely want those.
Shawnté Salabert
00:06:15.900 - 00:06:20.140
All right, well, enough pandering. What. What should we start with today?
Colin True
00:06:21.020 - 00:07:23.210
Okay, well, funny you should say that. This is. This is a little. I guess this is. This is an industry question. Maybe an industry adjacent. That's pretty much in the industry. It's a.
It's a retail question. So here we go. Dear Gear. Now it starts a little funny. It says disingenuously yours. Okay, why should I care if outdoor stores continue to struggle?
Cheap and disposable gear is only a Quick away on Amazon. And cottage makers have all the innovative new stuff. What value does a physical store add? Maybe colin spelled with two Ls.
By the way, I want to point out that the 2L Colins are posers and I won't abide being added that second L. All right, throw the whole email away. It happens. I'm just bitter. It's happened my whole life.
All right, maybe Colin could talk about the financial challenges of a retail store versus an online shop.
I had a long, fun career in outdoor retail, and it concerns me that several large chains and venerable small stores have gone under mi A Luddite signed former co op manager. I'm imagining that's REI co op Scott in Ojai. All right, California streak intact.
Shawnté Salabert
00:07:23.210 - 00:07:31.180
I love it. I love keeping up a California streak. I also love seeing a question come in from somebody in the industry.
See, if you ask for it, it will just happen automatically.
Colin True
00:07:31.180 - 00:07:31.660
That's amazing.
Shawnté Salabert
00:07:31.660 - 00:07:31.940
You.
Colin True
00:07:31.940 - 00:07:32.980
You manifested.
Shawnté Salabert
00:07:32.980 - 00:09:04.870
I am so good at manifesting. So, yeah, listen, because you're a witch. I am. I'm a bruja. That is my grandma was. All right, so listen, you're.
I will say, first of all, Scott, your mention of Amazon did give me a light touch of the ptsd because some years ago, an outside business journal was still snooze. Again, this is an industry thing, if you all know. You know, I spent several months reporting a story about Amazon's effect on outdoor retailers.
And I must have talked to Paul fish of Mountain GE 900 times. Like, bless his heart for being the most patient human on the planet. And he told me afterwards, like, the piece comes out, yada, yada.
He told me afterwards that thinking about all of that Amazon's impact on his business is part of why he decided to close up shop. So I must have spent a full year thinking I was personally responsible for Mountain Gear shutting down. I was like, oh, my God, Paul, I'm sorry.
And he's like, no, no, it's the best thing. But. But yeah, listen, Scott, you're not a Luddite.
I know you said you're asking to just disingenuously because you believe like I do and I bet like Colin does. We'll see. We find out because Colin always has an opinion. I bet you believe that brick and mortar. That is, by the way, physical stores.
For those of you who are not industry wonks who are listening, I think it's important on about 900 different levels. So since we're in California, we're going to stay there for a hot second because, you know, I like to.
It's also warmer here than it is anywhere else in the country right now. We used to have a great specialty shop called Adventure 16 or a 16 to we faithful. And. And they had a couple shops in the LA area, San Diego.
And in fact, the San Diego one was where I did my book launch for the PCT book.
Colin True
00:09:04.870 - 00:09:08.870
Oh, get out of here. That was their headquarters too. That's where their buying office was. Was in San Diego.
Shawnté Salabert
00:09:08.870 - 00:10:22.150
Yeah, they were so great. Like, thanks again, John Mead. Anyway, when they closed shop, a lot of us in the outdoor community here were pretty devastated.
And that's because a 16 was, I think of it like a record shop for outdoor nerds. You could go there, you could browse for hours, just kind of flip through maps and books and sleeping bags and socks and everything.
And if you wanted, the staff would sit, sit and, you know, shoot the with you and not just help you find the right thing, but also answer all of your questions. Kind of like Gear Abbey Analog, I suppose. But yeah, they talk to you about your trips coming up, your sport of choice, some cool movie they saw.
Like, it was. It really felt like you were going to hang out with the cool record store people. They had movie night speakers.
Like rent, they did rentals, they had all these cool discounts. I. I loved it. I loved that place so much. So to me, it wasn't just a place to buy things. It was part of the community.
And I think shopping there to me felt personal. It felt intimate in a way that online retail never will. It just won't.
I mean, I loved it so much, I wrote a whole elegy for Adventure Journal that got passed around. It was, it was like from the heart. But yeah, I'm just.
Personally, I'm excited to hear what you have to say, Colin, because I am sick of just existing in the digital realm. I just.
Anastasia Allison
00:10:22.310 - 00:10:22.710
We.
Shawnté Salabert
00:10:22.710 - 00:10:56.220
The digital realm is nothing. We just push a button and you get whatever you want. And I think it's really wrecked us in a lot of ways as humans. I want realness. I want intention.
I want to be present. I want to have a tactile experience with maybe not people and things, but things. Maybe I do want to have a tactile experience with people, actually.
Anyway, I could keep rambling on here, but Colin, Colin, with one link, Scott specifically invoked your name in that email. Plus, I know you were just bursting with opinions, even if he hadn't. So what are your thoughts on the topic?
Colin True
00:10:57.660 - 00:11:44.270
I'd say Scott, I wouldn't. I don't know if you are a Luddite, but I'd say in this topic, you're maybe being a Luddite. Right. I think the, the thing is it's not better or worse.
It's just, it's different. It's like everything else. Right. Like the. Well, hold on. I'm getting to it.
Like, there's, there's a, there's a general perception in the industry of like, oh, man, digital is coming for the brick and mortar and everything like that. And it's like, well, hold. Let's, let's, let's step back for a second. Yeah, we have more options.
And I'd say I agree 100% in principle with everything Shantay just said, but I got to tell you, if I need my next pair of Lone Peaks, you know, ultra Lone Peaks at a size 13, and I'm think of it while I'm out, like, doing something, and I could just pull up running warehouse on my phone and they'll be there the next day. Yeah, I might do that. I might not have time to go.
Shawnté Salabert
00:11:44.270 - 00:11:49.910
The thing, you know, you want, though, that's, it's. I'm talking about discovery in, in a lot of ways and like that human touch.
Colin True
00:11:50.550 - 00:12:19.450
And that is why the specialty retailer will continue to thrive. I think it's akin to what we see, what we're seeing in movie theaters. Right. I mean, I think big chains, the days are numbered.
Not that they're going to entirely go away, but it's going to be different.
But, you know, every town will probably have a boutique, sort of like movie theater for all the cinema files out there who want to just go see movies in person. Why you bring you. You talked about record stores, vinyls, having this moment. I collect vinyl now. I had vinyl when I was a kid. I got rid of it all.
Now I'm buying it again because it's fun to kind of have real media.
Shawnté Salabert
00:12:19.450 - 00:12:19.930
It is.
Colin True
00:12:19.930 - 00:13:28.410
And I think outdoor stores are that way. I think what we're seeing is there was a time when an outdoor store could open up pretty much anywhere and probably find an audience.
And now because it's different. Yeah, it's not the case anymore.
And I think the people, though the quality of the ownership of independent stores is, has gone up because people know how to run their own business. And I think we're seeing that with a. Of these stores that are, that are still thriving even in this current new world that we're in now.
When you talk about the Reis and the chains, I mean, that's a Bigger question because you, you know, they're talking like 90 plus stores. You know, there's a whole bunch of other stuff that goes with that. But it's still.
I still pop into REI if it's nearby and I need something and I know what's there. But we still have a specialty shop down the road from my house and I go there whenever I can because I want to support them.
And to Shanta's point, it's fun to walk around an outdoor store and before you know, now you're talking to people on the counter and like, oh man, I was up at Joshua Tree climbing. Like, oh man, I'm doing a hike in the San Bernardino's this weekend or whatever. You know, it's like that's the, that's the stuff.
And I don't think that will ever go away. No matter what technology throws at us or how convenient it becomes.
Shawnté Salabert
00:13:28.650 - 00:13:38.330
Wow. I have to say, Colin with one L, that was pretty good. I was expecting maybe a fish shake to happen in there. But you know what you did.
I think the fish shake was for the extra L. So I think you got a little.
Colin True
00:13:38.330 - 00:13:40.330
You got a little one. I got it. Yeah. I got it out of my chest.
Shawnté Salabert
00:13:40.330 - 00:13:58.190
To yell at like one Woo. Wisp of a cloud. And then you said something real nice. So hey, thanks Colin. Appreciate you that make.
You know what, I just, I wish I could go back the A16 that was on the west side of LA was. It was like a little cabin and they had hot cocoa. A little hot cocoa station.
Colin True
00:13:58.190 - 00:13:58.630
Yeah.
Shawnté Salabert
00:13:59.190 - 00:13:59.750
I love that.
Colin True
00:13:59.750 - 00:14:05.990
I still think there's a chance. Louisiana is a really interesting one. I mean there's so many people here, as a lot of people know. Right.
Shawnté Salabert
00:14:05.990 - 00:14:06.510
That is true.
Colin True
00:14:06.510 - 00:14:22.470
City is like a biggest city which. And there's all. There's plenty of people who have money here. There's plenty of outdoor recreation here.
I don't know why there's not a specialty shop or a couple of them outdoor shops in the LA area. And I think that's an opportunity for somebody maybe. Gear Abby's first retail store.
Shawnté Salabert
00:14:22.470 - 00:14:26.030
Gear Abby's Gear Shop. Gear Abby's Gear Garage.
Colin True
00:14:26.110 - 00:14:28.030
Not a bad idea, Shantae.
Shawnté Salabert
00:14:29.470 - 00:14:32.670
Let me think on that. Let me try to get a daily.
Colin True
00:14:32.670 - 00:14:34.350
Book signings with Shantae Salibare.
Shawnté Salabert
00:14:34.350 - 00:14:38.350
It's just we only sell my books. That's right. And Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Colin True
00:14:38.970 - 00:14:40.730
Oh my God. This is the best store ever.
Shawnté Salabert
00:14:41.690 - 00:14:52.330
All right, all right, all right. What do you have for me next? That was the most awkward. I can't even talk Right now because I'm so thrilled thinking about my own store. No, I'm not.
Ask me a question.
Colin True
00:14:53.210 - 00:15:18.150
Okay, here's the second question of this episode. Dear Gear Abby, big true crime nerd here, also a big reader. Just listen to the episode where you talk about outdoor books by women.
So figured you might have some good wrecks for outdoor true crime books. Thanks. Signed Blame My favorite murder, which is my favorite podcast. But yours is great.
Well backhanded at the, at the end you have such a good email until the end.
Shawnté Salabert
00:15:18.710 - 00:15:20.230
It was good. It could use some words.
Colin True
00:15:20.710 - 00:15:23.430
Your podcast is fine. I guess it's okay.
Shawnté Salabert
00:15:23.750 - 00:16:54.890
As long as you can give me murder books. It'll. It'll be second in line. All right. What do I call you? Mfm. I know is the blame. Should I just call you blame? All right, blame.
No, listen, as a fellow book nerd, I think I'm actually reading seven books right now. And in my defense, at least three of them are for my book. But I, I am a voracious reader, so I'm excited to dig in.
First of all, people may remember from that episode I mentioned Annette McGivney's Pure Land and that's about a murder that happened in the Grand Canyon. And just like a multi braided story about it.
Along those lines, I suggest you check out Trailed by Catherine Miles, who has the best name for someone writing about a book set on a trail. Her subject matter is the investigation.
It's her investigation really of the 1996 murders of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans on the Appalachian Trail. Great book, very engaging. Don't read it while you're hiking the Haiti. That's my only recommendation. These are home books.
You read these at home or in a hotel or something like somewhere that's not outside. So I also say in maybe more ambiguous, was it a crime or was it territory? I have two recommendations.
First of all, Andrea Lankford's Trail of the Lost, which I was delighted to discover she used my PCT book as one of her references. So I got to meet her when she.
Colin True
00:16:54.890 - 00:16:56.930
Okay, we'll sell her book in the shop too. She's.
Shawnté Salabert
00:16:57.250 - 00:16:58.150
Yeah, we'll sell her book.
Colin True
00:16:58.150 - 00:16:58.950
She just earned a spot.
Shawnté Salabert
00:16:58.950 - 00:16:59.670
She's written like six.
Colin True
00:16:59.670 - 00:17:02.510
Your books are only books adjacent to your books.
Shawnté Salabert
00:17:02.510 - 00:17:55.860
That's right. It's. It's a very special small web, super specialty, specialty shop. But listen, she wrote an amazing, this amazing book, Trail of the Lost.
It's about her efforts and all of these other people who've gotten involved in trying to solve this like kind of crazy ongoing mystery.
We're, we're like year 11 here of what happened to three different men who disappeared on the PCT in roughly the same area, which is the freaky part, or at least two of them are the same area and a year apart from each other. And the wild thing is I was on trail. So the first guy who went missing, Chris Sylvia, it was in 2015.
And I went past the area, I was on the trail working on my book that summer or that year.
And I walked past where there was all this police tape and it was totally unnerving because it's a very remote part of the desert and you're like, oh, okay, okay. Nothing weird has happened here.
Colin True
00:17:56.500 - 00:18:03.180
Is it like crime fear only or is there like some Bermuda Triangle, like weird, you know, sci fi stuff?
Shawnté Salabert
00:18:03.180 - 00:19:50.070
Yeah, you'll get a little bit of everything in here. It is a quite like they. She really goes deep into a lot of the different theories. It's a really good book.
Like, I loved it and I saw her, she did a presentation here at the Adventurers Club and it was, it was pretty dang good. Along that line, there is another book I really enjoyed which is Lost in the Valley of Death by Harley Rustad, who people might know from the Walrus.
It follows the story of a backpacker who disappeared in the remote Parvati Valley in northern India that's in the Indian Himalaya while seeking enlightenment. So you know what kind of backpacker this was. I don't need to tell you, but another amazing investigation, like what happened to this dude.
And you also get to hear about this amazingly beautiful place in the mountains, so. And why people are drawn there. So that was a very good one. I also slightly different.
I loved Jordan Fisher Smith's nature noir, which is about all the crazy shit he witnessed while he was working as a ranger for 14 years in the west side of the Sierra on the American River. And if you like that.
Actually Andrea Lankford also wrote, she's written many books, but she wrote a book called Ranger Confidential which is about her 12 years as a park ranger and all the crazy shit that happens. So, like, those are great. And if you want to get really wild with it, if you just are like, I would like an encyclopedia of death. Great.
I've got two recommendations for you. There's over the Edge Death in Grand Canyon and Off the Wall Death in Yosemite.
And both of those deal with the ways people have died in both of those parks. So morbid, dark, kind of true crime adjacent because there is definitely some crime in there. But yeah, that's.
And that is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure there's a lot more. Like, send in people who are listening. If you've got other book, Rex, send them in and I'll put them on my Goodreads.
Colin True
00:19:50.550 - 00:19:53.990
I don't know if true crime is something you want to have on the trail.
Anastasia Allison
00:19:54.390 - 00:19:55.070
That's what I said.
Shawnté Salabert
00:19:55.070 - 00:19:56.710
Don't read it on the trail. Colin, where you.
Colin True
00:19:56.710 - 00:20:10.790
Okay, good. Yeah, that was an important warning there. But also there are some like, you know, stereotypes that really do begin with the truth.
And I don't understand the whole. My wife's a true crime person. What is with the, like, middle aged women in true crime? What is it?
Shawnté Salabert
00:20:10.790 - 00:20:23.170
I don't. You know, I always wonder that because I bet she listens to my favorite murder. My mom listens.
Yeah, she got me to listen to it and I was like, I was wondering why I was drawn to it. I'm like, this is kind of fucked up. You know, like, why is this enjoyable?
Colin True
00:20:23.730 - 00:20:42.140
I tie.
I forget what it was, but I basically connected two dots that we're not that close about something that could happen, like to one of our kids or something like that. Like, if something happened and my wife's like, that could never happen.
I'm like, you watch hours of like, stuff where stuff seemingly could never happen actually does happen. So how do you, like, discount what I'm saying?
Shawnté Salabert
00:20:42.140 - 00:21:02.180
It's true, it's true. I have to.
I have to be very careful about sprinkling in any true crime, reading or watching or listening or anything, because I have a very overactive imagination. I am a person who has nightmares at night, so I don't need extra fodder.
I already, to this day, still jump in bed when I'm going to bed because I don't want my feet exposed to the monster under the bed, so.
Colin True
00:21:02.660 - 00:21:03.380
Well, that's real.
Shawnté Salabert
00:21:03.460 - 00:21:03.900
Thank you.
Colin True
00:21:03.900 - 00:21:10.510
But, but if you wanted to go crime but not true crime, would you go like a Cormac McCarthy or something like that?
Shawnté Salabert
00:21:10.910 - 00:21:16.830
Oh, like in true. I was gonna say in true blood. That's a TV show version. That's a vampire version of In Cold Blood.
Colin True
00:21:16.830 - 00:21:26.350
What a singing, like kind of outdoor theme, Western, A lot of, you know, those kinds of themes going on, but very, very crime centric. If you want to go less true crime and more, you know, is that the kind of.
Shawnté Salabert
00:21:26.350 - 00:21:28.310
I mean, is that what you would go for? Maybe you would want that.
Colin True
00:21:28.310 - 00:21:29.750
I'm asking you, like, I just told.
Shawnté Salabert
00:21:29.750 - 00:21:34.210
You What I read. Okay, we just spent. We just spent, like, 10 minutes talking about what I read.
Colin True
00:21:34.210 - 00:21:36.090
No, if you didn't want to do true crime.
Shawnté Salabert
00:21:36.090 - 00:21:37.610
I wanted to do false crime.
Colin True
00:21:37.930 - 00:21:38.410
Yes.
Shawnté Salabert
00:21:38.490 - 00:21:40.450
Fiction. I wanted to do small crimes.
Colin True
00:21:40.450 - 00:21:41.610
You don't do fiction.
Shawnté Salabert
00:21:42.410 - 00:22:02.580
I do do fiction. I do do fiction. Okay. I love fiction. It is my escape. So maybe. Oh, man, Colin, you know, I love. I love when people bring book life to podcast life.
I just. People keep sending in your book questions. It delights me, even if the subject matter is kind of morbid. So keep it up.
Colin True
00:22:02.900 - 00:22:04.100
We gotta bring books back.
Shawnté Salabert
00:22:04.260 - 00:22:09.140
I know. Make reading a thing again. I love to read. I'm thinking about the book fairs we had in school.
Anastasia Allison
00:22:09.140 - 00:22:10.100
What a delight.
Shawnté Salabert
00:22:10.340 - 00:22:19.060
I want that. I want, like, an adult book fair. Not. Not an adult book fair. Like adult. You know what I'm saying? I mean, maybe I do. Maybe I do.
Colin True
00:22:19.060 - 00:22:25.660
I. Why not? Can we hold it at the alien cat house? Oh, my gosh.
Shawnté Salabert
00:22:25.660 - 00:22:28.300
That's right. We could. I bet. We'll give them up. We'll give him a buzz.
Anastasia Allison
00:22:28.300 - 00:22:30.180
We'll see. Well, while.
Shawnté Salabert
00:22:30.180 - 00:22:35.060
While we're planning out our triple X reading future, what question do you have for me?
Colin True
00:22:35.060 - 00:22:49.900
Next Gear Abby. The Penthouse Forum of outdoor podcasts. Okay, so next question. Here we go.
Dear Gear Abby, I have an embarrassing question, but I guess you get a lot of these. I don't know how to feel about that. I mean, is that. Are you being judged?
Shawnté Salabert
00:22:50.140 - 00:22:52.460
Don't judge yourself. Too early for that.
Colin True
00:22:53.420 - 00:22:59.940
A friend just gifted me a kula. Excuse me? A friend just gifted me a kula cloth to use on my backpacking trips.
Shawnté Salabert
00:22:59.940 - 00:23:00.260
Nice.
Colin True
00:23:00.260 - 00:23:21.800
I know a lot of people use them and it's really cute, but I just can't get past the idea of reusing something that I wiped with after peeing. How is it possibly hygienic for question marks? So really make sure they're emphasizing the hygienic part. I don't get it.
I would feel better if I could wash it after every use, but how the hell am I supposed to do that on a backpacking trip? Help. Signed Shailene.
Shawnté Salabert
00:23:23.080 - 00:24:25.410
Oh, Shailene. First of all, there is no need to be embarrassed. Everybody, peace. Myself included. And at this point, I think I own four kulas. That might be.
That might be a minimal number. I may actually have more than that because every time they come out with a cool design, I'm like, I must have another pea cloth.
For people who are not familiar, by the way, kulas are. We use the. The phrase pee cloth, but it's it's an absorbent thing that has a waterproof layer and then an absorbent layer on the other side.
You can clip it to your backpack or wherever you want it. Your fanny pack. If you're that kind of vibe. And if you're somebody who squats when you pee, this could be a useful thing to dab with afterwards.
But anyways, I have many kulas. I also have a shirt and pants set printed with the famous Victorian cat. If you've ever seen.
If you spent that one year that their entire Instagram feed was Victorian cats. I'm a little obsessed, but yeah, I've been using kulas forever, including on long distance hikes, and not once have my lady bits gotten the funk.
So just here, proof positive. And I could just sit here and.
Colin True
00:24:25.410 - 00:24:26.930
Try to convince you from the kula cloth?
Shawnté Salabert
00:24:26.930 - 00:24:49.680
From the. That's right. Or anything else, Colin. Okay, It's. It's a clean environment. But listen, I decided to call in reinforcements, and you are about.
You're gonna. You're in for a treat.
You're about to get the straight shit or the straight pee from Kula Klotz founder and CEO, the absolutely delightful Anastasia Allison. Welcome to the show, Anastasia.
Anastasia Allison
00:24:50.000 - 00:24:52.560
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Shawnté Salabert
00:24:52.800 - 00:24:58.640
Oh, I'm so happy. Your energy is just filtering through the screen into. Into my soul, so thank you for that.
Anastasia Allison
00:24:59.190 - 00:24:59.750
Likewise.
Shawnté Salabert
00:25:00.550 - 00:25:12.150
Great. Well, we love to talk about bodily fluids and stuff on the show, so let's dive in.
Let's actually start with the issue of whether or not a kula cloth is hygienic. I mean, is it like, what's your take on this?
Anastasia Allison
00:25:12.550 - 00:27:10.930
Yeah, so the, the kula cloth, the way that I designed it. Because when I first heard about the idea of a pee cloth, I had a very similar reaction to your listener.
My very first reaction was, this is disgusting. Like, who would ever reuse a wipe to pee? And I was a backpacking instructor at the time.
And so there was this tiny little spark in my mind that was kind of like, but maybe you should give it a try first and see what your actual experience is before you just totally write it off. So first off, I want to say thanks to the listener for just being open to the idea, but your hesitancy is not abnormal.
And as I started using a pee cloth and I was just using like a scrap of fabric to get started, just a piece of microfiber, I had this sort of lightning bolt moment where I realized, wait a second, this scrap of fabric is literally not designed for hygiene at all.
I wonder if I could actually work with a textile company that created fabric that was specifically designed for the purpose of hygiene, to make something that actually is hygienic to be used for this purpose. And I, with literally no experience in the textile industry, dove into learning all about antimicrobial fabrics.
And the kula cloth is created with a special type of fabric that is super absorbent. So when you pat dry with it, it actually is pulling the moisture away from that exterior layer of cloth.
And then actual fabric itself is treated with silver ions. The important thing about that is that not all silver is created equal. It's actually sort of a wash that's kind of washed into the fabric.
And there are silver nanoparticles that can be harmful to wastewater systems.
Shawnté Salabert
00:27:11.010 - 00:27:12.210
Not nanoparticles.
Anastasia Allison
00:27:12.370 - 00:27:35.260
Not nanoparticles. These are ions. Ions become inert, and they are safe to be used against human skin.
The biggest piece that I always tell folks is like, the alternatives to using a pee cloth are either drip drying, which if you just sort of are twerking, or shaking out there on the trail.
Shawnté Salabert
00:27:35.420 - 00:27:36.300
And who isn't?
Anastasia Allison
00:27:36.460 - 00:27:37.420
And who isn't?
Shawnté Salabert
00:27:37.420 - 00:27:38.300
I mean, I am.
Anastasia Allison
00:27:38.620 - 00:27:50.720
It is impossible to. I mean, unless you're just sort of out there air drying for 30 minutes, it's pretty tough to get all the moisture off of yourself still.
Shawnté Salabert
00:27:50.720 - 00:27:51.800
Yeah, yeah. There's.
Anastasia Allison
00:27:51.800 - 00:27:53.640
There's places that moisture.
Shawnté Salabert
00:27:53.640 - 00:27:56.040
That moisture can stay. That's right.
Anastasia Allison
00:27:56.360 - 00:28:29.990
There's. There's a couple places where moisture can say. And invariably, what happens is that your underwear becomes the de facto pea cloth.
And so the concept of a pea cloth is that we are removing moisture from being up against your body and actually creating a more hygienic environment, because especially when you're out in the back country for a day or even multiple days at a time, moisture against your skin, particularly in the nether regions. Not your friend.
Shawnté Salabert
00:28:30.390 - 00:28:31.590
No. Mortal enemy.
Anastasia Allison
00:28:31.910 - 00:29:27.140
Mortal enemy is moisture chafing, infection.
And unbelievably, there's actually studies done by Knolls that demonstrate very, very specifically that hygiene is usually the thing that derails people's trips. It's not, you know, oh, my $70,000 tent failed. It's, I got an infection, or I, you know, wasn't drinking enough because I was worried about peeing.
And I've literally gotten letters before from people who told me that they specifically intentionally dehydrated themselves on hikes because they were concerned about having to pee in the backcountry. And so I feel like, like the kula is pulling moisture away from Your skin allowing you to stay hydrated and peeing consistently.
And all of those are very good things.
Shawnté Salabert
00:29:27.620 - 00:30:10.080
Oh, hell yeah, they are. I mean, I'm thinking my. When you talking about your microfiber early version of a pea cloth, reminds me of how primitive mine was.
It was just a quarter of a bandana and it was the least hygienic thing anyone has ever seen on this planet. So it didn't. It did not. Moisture wick away from my nether. So it was like, who wants to hang out? I want moisture everywhere. All right, so we've got.
We've got. Moisture is being wicked here. We're using, you know, whatever how. So how do we keep it clean? Because that is sort of the other part of this question.
I have my methodologies, but. Which involves a bidet, by the way. I think I've actually talked about it on the podcast. I am a bidet nerd.
But what do you recommend for people keeping these clean while they're on trail?
Anastasia Allison
00:30:10.640 - 00:32:17.390
So while I'm on trail, I will use mine over and over again all day long. The.
The tip I would recommend to this particular listener is, is test it out at home first, because I think that's a really safe environment where you could try using it a few times during the day, like just in your home bathroom and just see how it feels and see if you get used to the feeling of not necessarily washing it off in between. If you genuinely want to rinse it off in between. There is nothing wrong with that. You could literally wash off your coola every single time. It's.
It will likely function a little bit more like a wet wipe, but it still would work. It still would pull moisture away from your skin, and you'd still be cleaning any residual urine off of your body. All of those are good things.
So you could absolutely theoretically wash it off in between uses. But how I prefer to use mine is that I pee throughout the day. I use a coola to pat dry every single time I pee.
And then in the evening, what I do is I take a water bottle, a couple drops of natural soap like Bronner's Peppermint Soap, and I walk at least 200ft or more away from natural water sources.
I add my couple drops of soap, agitate the kula as, you know, sort of aggressively as possible to get it clean, rinse it off, squeeze it dry, and then if you are camping in a damp environment, one thing I found that hanging damp things to dry in a damp environment, sometimes. Sometimes they aren't quite dry in the morning.
So what I definitely recommend to folks is if you want to dry Coola by the morning, take your damp koola, place it on your thigh inside your long underwear. You'll probably hate me for about two seconds because it'll feel like cold and clammy. Keep in mind, it's clean at this point.
I just want to make that very clear. This is a clean, slightly damp kula. And then by the time you wake up in the morning, it'll be completely dry.
If I am just on a day hike, what I'll do is I'll bring the kula cloth home and I will just hand wash it in my sink or I'll throw it in my standard washer dryer.
Shawnté Salabert
00:32:17.790 - 00:32:31.510
Nice.
I, by the way, I cannot get over the fact that the one soap flavor, soap flavor that's not a scent that you recommended that you said you used is mint. You're just putting mints there. And then others like, yeah, I like to keep it.
Anastasia Allison
00:32:31.510 - 00:32:33.230
We, we like to keep it, keep.
Shawnté Salabert
00:32:33.230 - 00:32:39.210
It a little tingly, a little minty down there. All right, all right, Anastasia. We don't kink sh this podcast.
Colin True
00:32:40.250 - 00:32:40.970
That's true.
Shawnté Salabert
00:32:40.970 - 00:32:42.250
It's true. It's so true.
Colin True
00:32:42.330 - 00:32:53.290
I just want to point out too that, you know, there is another half of the market that you could be, you know, addressing here because men are not without drips. It's a different dripping issue, I think, than women and, but at the same.
Shawnté Salabert
00:32:53.290 - 00:32:56.410
Time, you know, a very visceral image right now.
Colin True
00:32:56.410 - 00:33:07.170
Colin, listen, I'm trying to follow the quorum of this conversation, which is radically, much more cleaned up than our typical conversations on this podcast. But, you know, I'm just saying we.
Anastasia Allison
00:33:07.170 - 00:34:29.540
Definitely have men who use a cool. Believe it or not, we actually have a miniature sized kula cloth that is only three and a half heavy. Yeah, three and a half.
By three and a half, it's super tiny. And we literally get requests from men. I've spoken to a bunch of men before who actually use a cooler to dry off after they pee.
And as a secondary usage, and this would definitely need to be a very designated kula for this purpose, we also have a lot of folks who use them as a post bidet cloth. So after you've used your kulo clean or whatever travel bidet that you happen to use, you typically need to pat dry.
And essentially, while the, the primary use that we market kula for is for a pee cloth, it essentially is an antimicrobial cloth. So you could use it for a post bidet cloth. You could Use it for a nose wipe, a hand wipe wipe, something like that.
So that would, I guess, kind of be my final recommendation for the listener is that if the.
The most important thing I always recommend is do what feels best to you, and if it genuinely doesn't feel like using a pee cloth vibes with you, that's also okay. I won't pee cloth shame anybody.
Shawnté Salabert
00:34:29.780 - 00:34:30.180
Good.
Anastasia Allison
00:34:30.180 - 00:34:34.580
But. But you could always use it as a nose wipe or a hand wipe or something else.
Shawnté Salabert
00:34:34.660 - 00:34:35.060
And.
Anastasia Allison
00:34:35.140 - 00:34:38.870
And it's still really practical and nice to have with you on backpacking trips.
Colin True
00:34:38.870 - 00:34:40.750
Dedicated to those uses, though.
Anastasia Allison
00:34:40.910 - 00:34:41.310
Yes.
Colin True
00:34:41.310 - 00:34:42.510
Don't mix the uses.
Anastasia Allison
00:34:43.470 - 00:34:44.870
No, we are not cross use.
Colin True
00:34:44.870 - 00:34:45.470
Okay, good.
Shawnté Salabert
00:34:45.790 - 00:34:46.270
Yeah.
Anastasia Allison
00:34:47.150 - 00:34:50.030
The nose wipe does not become the p wipe.
Shawnté Salabert
00:34:51.310 - 00:34:57.630
Yeah. And listen. And if your thing is having a tingly nethers, you know exactly what to do. Go get some Dr. Bronner.
Colin True
00:34:57.630 - 00:34:58.710
More Dr. Bronner's.
Anastasia Allison
00:34:58.710 - 00:35:00.310
Yeah, Dr. Bronner's.
Shawnté Salabert
00:35:00.310 - 00:35:09.500
That's right. We should see if they can sponsor this episode. Oh, man.
Well, Anastasia, I have about a thousand questions left, but I think we should just have you back on the show anytime.
Anastasia Allison
00:35:09.500 - 00:35:13.740
I'm. I will be here to talk about tingling, peeing, pooping, and anything in between.
Colin True
00:35:13.740 - 00:35:15.180
Oh, yeah, you're just a natural. You're a fit.
Shawnté Salabert
00:35:15.180 - 00:35:24.860
You're beautiful. You fit right in. We might have to hire you as a third host. Sorry, you won't get paid because none of us do. But it's fine.
Not until Dr. Bronner starts sponsoring.
Colin True
00:35:24.860 - 00:35:26.020
Yeah, we need that Bronner's money.
Anastasia Allison
00:35:26.020 - 00:35:29.020
Let's. Let's put that on our vision board together. That's right.
Shawnté Salabert
00:35:29.020 - 00:36:47.550
I like this Bronner's, here we come. Well, thank you so much. I'll send more p Questions. Let's get Anastasia back. She also likes to play instruments and mountains, does a lot of things.
She used to be a park ranger. Like I. She's got a lot going on. So send me more questions. Anastasia, have a wonderful rest of your day. May it be tingly and fresh forever. Thank you.
I really appreciate any opportunity to talk about bodily functions on this podcast. So I want to thank Shailene. Thank you again for that question.
That is a question I've heard a lot over the years and I also love having Anastasia anywhere in my orbit it. So I'm very glad for that question. Yeah, you know what we didn't actually mention.
The reason I started using my Reggaet s pea cloth in the beginning is because I just didn't want to have all that disgusting used toilet paper with me all the time. It was just so much tp.
When you're on a long trail or even, you know, even a weekend backpacking trip, if you are a prolific peer and pooper, like, you're going to have a lot of TP at the end of it and you got to carry it out. We don't bury things here in the west, at least because it's too dry and it just turns into petrified tp. But, yeah, that's why I started using one.
And I. When I got my first kula cloth, it was revolutionary. They snap shut, by the way. Like, I don't know if you've seen one. Colin, have you seen.
Colin True
00:36:47.550 - 00:36:48.430
Oh, yeah, yeah, no, I have.
Shawnté Salabert
00:36:48.430 - 00:36:56.230
You know, the magic. Yeah, they snap shut. So it's not like the wet part is exposed to dirt or anything. It's amazing. They're well engineered, like a plus plus.
Colin True
00:36:56.630 - 00:37:12.140
I'm really glad that Shailene asked the question and sent in the question because I'm sure, I mean, that's a very. These are very natural questions to think of when you see something like that.
But when you think about the circumstances of which you're using a kula cloth, which are usually just filthy.
Shawnté Salabert
00:37:12.700 - 00:37:15.020
What kind of peeing are you doing? My peeing is not fun.
Colin True
00:37:15.020 - 00:37:19.740
No, just being out and backpacking and you're gross and everything like that you're doing.
Shawnté Salabert
00:37:19.740 - 00:37:22.140
Colin, is peeing outside, okay?
Colin True
00:37:22.700 - 00:37:25.380
Correct. But you're also sweaty and dirty and everything else.
Shawnté Salabert
00:37:25.380 - 00:37:26.220
You don't know what I'm like a.
Colin True
00:37:26.220 - 00:37:34.600
Little bit of a little cloth with a little bit of pee on it. Like, not the grossest thing. You could be like the bag full of, you know, of toilet paper. Way grocer. You know, is my point.
Shawnté Salabert
00:37:34.600 - 00:37:45.160
It's not as bad as carrying around a wag bag, that's for sure. All right, all right. Well, I'm sure the people would like us to wrap it up, so. What? Or maybe they don't. Actually, it's better if they don't.
We could just keep going.
Colin True
00:37:45.160 - 00:37:47.320
That's true. Just. We got like, just. We're gonna.
Shawnté Salabert
00:37:47.320 - 00:37:49.000
Marathon Infinite episode.
Colin True
00:37:49.160 - 00:37:53.480
Yes. We will never stop recording. But then will we ever release it? How will this work?
Shawnté Salabert
00:37:53.560 - 00:37:58.120
This is a very meta kind of question, but speaking of questions, let's do it. Last one.
Colin True
00:37:58.600 - 00:38:02.360
Okay, here we go. Dear Gear Abby, here's a hot one for you.
Shawnté Salabert
00:38:02.360 - 00:38:02.880
All right.
Colin True
00:38:03.520 - 00:38:17.280
Obviously you've seen the news that the national parks got a lot more expensive for international visitors. Do you think raising those fees was a good idea? Sean wrote this. Thanks, Sean. But like, come on, man.
Shawnté Salabert
00:38:17.280 - 00:38:19.920
Man, couldn't you just ask me a nice question about poop?
Colin True
00:38:20.320 - 00:38:25.560
Seriously, like, just let me just bait the hell out of you. Here we go.
Shawnté Salabert
00:38:25.560 - 00:38:31.660
I feel like I have to limber up for this one. I feel like speaking of rock fight, someone's gonna. I'm gonna absolutely get rock fight emails for sure.
Colin True
00:38:31.810 - 00:38:39.170
This seriously, I'm going to step aside as the podcast, you know, Fists Shaker at the Clouds. Shantay, I'm tagging you in.
Shawnté Salabert
00:38:40.450 - 00:41:07.940
All right. I think, I think. I don't know if my take will surprise you or not, but. All right.
So for, for any of you listening who are just emerging from a thousand year slumber under a very large rock, Sean is referring to an executive order that was issued last year that raised fees at some of the most popular national parks. So not all of them. I think it's like 11 for people 16 and older who are not US residents to the tune of a hundred dollars per person, not per car.
They do have the option of buying a non resident annual pass for 250 which covers everybody in the car. And that's in contrast to the US resident one, which is still 80 bucks.
Also, I don't know if people realize this how we used to have all those fee free days like, I don't know, Martin Luther King Jr. Day, Juneteenth, two days celebrating Blackness that were taken off of the calendar this year by, I don't know, maybe some people who don't like blackness. Anyway, all of those days, those fee free days used to be free for anyone who entered the park, and now non US Residents are excluded from that.
They still have to pay on those days, which means that somehow park rangers at the entrance stations are going to have to check ID and proof of residents for every single visitor. We're going to get back to that in a minute. So let's talk about this. There's generally two arguments I've heard for higher fees.
First, that it's an offset for the fact that international visitors don't already pay taxes like we do.
And second is the idea that people visiting from other places must have a lot of money to travel, so we might as well just go ahead and fleece them because they'll spend whatever because they really want to be there. And I think at face value, it is not entirely unheard of for parks around the world to upcharge international visitors.
I remember paying a pretty steep non resident fee when I was at Kilimanjaro. Places like Galapagos National Park, Angkor Wat, Torres del Paine, Kruger national park in South Africa. They all do the same thing. In theory.
I'm emphasizing theory. This is designed to bring more money to the parks, especially those parks that see a lot of international visitors and all right.
Our parks need the money. I cannot be mad. In theory. Colin is like, is this a theory? It's. This is in theory, Colin. I don't know if you noticed.
Colin is just holding it in right now. So. So listen, I. I have two issues. We'll just say two issues. Okay? Two issues with this. In reality, two issues with 23 issues.
Colin True
00:41:07.940 - 00:41:09.340
Buried into those two issues.
Shawnté Salabert
00:41:09.500 - 00:41:13.660
7,000. This is why today's episode is an infinite episode.
Colin True
00:41:13.820 - 00:41:14.820
It's just gonna keep going.
Shawnté Salabert
00:41:14.820 - 00:41:32.550
It's just circumst.
So first of all, to me, it is a real head scratcher that even as the current administration says these increased fees will and I quote, improve the infrastructure of or otherwise enhance enjoyment of or access to America's federal recreation areas.
Colin True
00:41:34.630 - 00:41:37.110
Excuse me. Sorry, sorry. I'll edit that out.
Shawnté Salabert
00:41:37.190 - 00:42:58.010
No, no, no.
Colin might be onto something because this very same administration is at the same time actively working to drastically defund an already underfunded park system. Okay, we are talking about this. Listen, this is just facts, people.
We're talking about administration that has laid off a significant number of permanent park employees, leaving people like, I interviewed a guy, I cannot, I'm not going to say where he works or what he does, but a professional person who's worked in the parks for decades, who does things that are life saving and structure saving, who is now doing things like cleaning bathrooms. Okay. While also supposed to be still doing the other side stuff.
Anyway, so they wanted, this administration wanted to enact the largest ever budget cuts to the National Park Service at the tune of more than a billion dollars. And that is while we're already sitting at an estimated $23 billion deficit across the Park Service.
Things that need to get done, fixed, implemented, people who need to be hired, etc, no matter your political affiliation, your thoughts, anything like that. The math ain't math nothing. Okay?
If you think the park should have money, which I do, raising fees can be part of the solution, but the other part needs to be increasing appropriations from Congress in the budget. Like you cannot talk out of both sides of your ass, which is what's happening here. Okay, so that's my first. That's my first point of contention.
Colin is still.
Colin True
00:42:58.010 - 00:43:00.010
That was good. That was pretty concise, you know.
Shawnté Salabert
00:43:00.010 - 00:43:58.210
Thank you. I. Yeah, I'm trying to shake my fist at a minimum here. I want to encourage. I'm a Gentle girl. Okay, so here.
Here's the other main, main part of the issue that I have. The only way.
We kind of alluded to this earlier, only way to determine if somebody is a resident or a non resident is by checking every single ID of every single person. Because again, remember, the international surcharge is per person, not per car, okay?
So that means if there's four people in a car, you got to check four IDs. From a practical standpoint, this is stupid. All right? I'm sure some of you have waited in the already massive lines.
Again, these are our most popular parks that are getting this implemented. Some of you, you know the lines at Arch, you know, like Yosemite, which is one of the parks. It's stupid. And I just want to.
Like, there's also this creepy undercurrent of us versus them. And that seems to be a common theme with the current administration. It's like. Like, I feel like we're living in one giant human purity town test.
Colin True
00:43:58.930 - 00:43:59.410
Totally.
Shawnté Salabert
00:43:59.410 - 00:44:43.180
Like, are the park staff trained to understand the nuances of residency in this country and all the different IDs that cover that? Okay? It's not just a driver's license. It's not just a passport.
Are they going to harass people if they don't think their idea is valid or because they don't understand it? And perhaps to me, most importantly, is facing identification scrutiny going to stop people from visiting the parks?
Like that, to me, is the biggest thing we should be thinking about here.
That and the fact that the administration is going to use the park struggle, which is due to them underfunding the parks to make a pitch for private enterprises to take over in the end. So this is all.
I feel like we're all getting the short end of the stick here, even if you think this is just a weird fee thing for international visitors. So, anyway, thanks, Sean. Gonna go scream into the void now.
Colin True
00:44:44.140 - 00:44:58.620
Yeah, look, it's all. This is Monopoly. This is made up Monopoly money that we have here in the United States. There's other parks. You've been those other countries.
Like, I doubt that they're as wealthy a country as the United States. And it's like we're saying, oh, we can't afford. We gotta, like, off. We absolutely can.
Shawnté Salabert
00:44:58.620 - 00:45:02.920
Ye other things that we could be putting into.
Colin True
00:45:03.480 - 00:45:04.920
Oh, my God. Well, right.
Shawnté Salabert
00:45:04.920 - 00:45:05.400
I don't know.
Colin True
00:45:05.400 - 00:45:24.720
We're going to, you know, like, amp up, you know, more national defense for the. For the War Department to get ready to invade Greenland. Like, that's the. There's the that's what we're doing in Sorry, Greenland.
You know, instead of the thing that people want to more of in this country, which is our national parks. Yeah, you know, Teddy Roosevelt. Talk about rolling in your spinning in your grave.
Shawnté Salabert
00:45:24.720 - 00:45:30.290
Seriously. Jesus. Poor Ken Burns. What's Ken Burns thinking now?
Colin True
00:45:31.170 - 00:45:33.410
He's like, is anybody watching my Revolutionary War thing?
Shawnté Salabert
00:45:34.050 - 00:46:30.550
He's like, if you kind of apt. He's just doing a screening of his national park series on the White House lawn. It's like, hey, guys, remember how we said it was our best idea?
Anyone still with me? Oh, man. That's it for this episode of Gear Abby. Until next time, send your burning questions not about the park service, please, and thank you.
At least for an episode or two about your relationships with outdoor products, people, places and pastimes over to DearGearAbbyMail.com and I'm gonna do my best to answer them or find someone like Anastasia who can. And of course, head over to your podcast listening service of choice and subscribe, rate and review to support the pod and mi' kma day.
Follow us on Instagram at gearabypypod. I finally started posting again. You're welcome. In the meantime. Meantime, this is for all of you.
In the meantime, Today's episode was produced by David Karstad and this guy, Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Genser. I'm Shantae Salibair. And remember, there are no dumb questions, just smart advice.
