Arkansas' Outdoor Playbook: If You Build It, They Will Come
- colin7931
- Aug 19
- 30 min read
Today we open the container with Arkansas' first Director of Office of Outdoor Recreation, Katherine Andrews.
Doug begins the show highlighting the transformative potential of outdoor recreation in revitalizing small-town economies. Because, as we learned from Ray Kinsella's voice "if you build it, they will come."
Doug is then joined by Katherine Andrews. As Arkansas' Director of the Office of Outdoor Recreation, Katherine understands how strategically developed recreational facilities and infrastructure can stimulate economic growth and attract new residents.
Doug & Katherine look at Arkansas as a leader in recreation. A place where successful initiatives have leveraged outdoor activities to foster community engagement and economic sustainability.
Together they explore the role of local governments and community involvement in recreation and emphasize that economic development does not need vast resources or power.
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Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:00.240 - 00:00:06.480
Want to know one way to help grow a small town economy? It's the old Field of Dreams mantra:
The Voice
00:00:06.480 - 00:00:10.160
If you build it, they will come to your small town.
Katherine Andrews
00:00:10.400 - 00:00:21.760
You don't have to have a whole lot of money or a whole lot of power to get started. Utilize different grant programs that are available and you can really start something powerful.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:22.000 - 00:00:31.700
How did Arkansas really put itself in position to be what I think is really the leader in the country when it comes to showing how outdoor recreation can sustain community?
Katherine Andrews
00:00:31.780 - 00:00:47.140
And people across Arkansas are trying to figure out, okay, what's next for our community? How do we really drive economic development in the 21st century? How do we get more people to move back to our area?
How do we get young people to want to stay?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:49.780 - 00:08:56.269
Hey everyone, I want to thank you for listening to Open Container and ask that you please subscribe to the show by clicking Follow on the podcast app you're using right now. Following the podcast is the best way to ensure that we will continue to crack open the container every single week.
Thanks and let's get back to the show. Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzpine. I'm a journalist, writer and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and once cracked a helmet in half on a mountain bike crash and walked away.
On this podcast, we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Let's get some Want to know one way to help grow a small town economy? Build a mountain bike trail. But don't stop there. Build a system of trails.
Open a bike shop. A pizza shop. It's the old Field of Dreams mantra. If you build it, they will come. Recreation drives modern economies.
The numbers are there to prove it. According to the U.S. bureau of Economic Analysis, outdoor recreation creates $1.2 trillion in economic output in the United States.
That's 2.3% of the national GDP. Now, people may argue about that number, what's included, what it really means, but one thing is clear. We work so that we can recreate.
That's the basic truth, isn't it? Outdoor recreation continues to grow in popularity.
In 2023, 175.8 million Americans, or 57.3% of the population aged 6 and older, participated in outdoor activities. That number grew by 4% from the previous year. We spend so much time behind screens, at desks, in meetings.
There's a kind of freedom only found outdoors. And that freedom doesn't just drive economies in the measurable sense, goods sold, services used. It also shapes how Americans build their lives.
So many of us want to live near places where we can enjoy the outdoors when we're not working. It's a stark contrast from the demands of the job.
And though we seem enamored with tech, social media, and AI, the digital world can be confining, hectic, and exhausting. Where we really find ourselves is on the trail, in the saddle. Hunting, fishing, ultra running, bird watching, maybe even just forest bathing.
Reconnecting in some way to the vast web of life and species we're a part of. The world is closing in faster and faster around public lands, open spaces, mountain towns, and rural communities across the United States.
With telecommuting and the ability to work online from anywhere, everything has gotten closer. And the way we work has changed too. That leaves many small towns and rural communities in a difficult position.
They want to keep their character to continue being the hard working communities they've always been, and yet they need to survive economically. A prime example of building an economy around outdoor recreation is Frida, Colorado. It was once just a small farming town.
People would buzz through it on their way from Denver to Moab, barely thinking about what was hidden in the desert around them. For years, dirt bikers had carved out trails in places like Rabbit Valley and on the mesas above the Colorado River.
Eventually, mountain bikers discovered these trails and began purpose building them for bikes. The cycling community took notice. Nearby Moab had great trails, but many were old jeep roads, rocky fun, bone rattling, even the classics.
Fruita's new trails, by contrast, were smoother dream rides for mountain bikers. As word spread, more riders came to Fruita. The town began to embrace its new identity as a mountain biking destination.
And while that kind of change doesn't always come without conflict, there can be tension when newcomers move in and try to reshape the culture. Fruta was largely supportive. It held onto its dinosaur museum and its agricultural heritage, and a new identity was born alongside them.
In the late 1990s, over the edge Bike Shop opened. At the time, Fruita was in a tough spot. Agriculture was bleak, stores had closed.
But now the town brings in over 42 million a year in economic benefits, thanks to mountain biking. It's hard to deny that kind of revitalization now.
Perhaps the biggest outdoor rec Success story Bentonville, Arkansas in the early 2000s, Bentonville made a bold move to become the mountain bike capital of the world. That push, backed by the Walton family, owners of Walmart, which is headquartered there, seemed ambitious, maybe even crazy at the time.
How Could Arkansas compete with places like Crested Butte, Colorado, or Moab or California, where mountain biking is already a way of life? The answer was community and community engagement.
Bentonville prioritized building trails with a fantastic, connected system throughout the region that gave riders of all ability levels something to explore.
But truly, the difference was in the town itself deciding to stake its economic future on fat tires and a new kind of economy, one based on outdoor recreation, on clean living, on openness. Bentonville didn't just build trails and open bike shops. The town encouraged people to move there to build a life.
At one point, they were even offering new residents a free bike and $10,000 if they relocated. And it worked. It really worked. Bentonville proved that mountain biking isn't just about extreme trails or epic views. It's about lifestyle.
It's about the commitment to making riding a part of everyday life. It's about balancing work with passion and time outdoors.
The success of outdoor recreation as a tool for rural development hasn't gone unnoticed by state governments. Today, outdoor recreation departments known as OREX exist in 24 states from North Dakota to Tennessee to Maine to New Mexico.
These offices work to ensure that outdoor recreation is part of the economic strategy, integrating it with local communities, small businesses, and the new residents moving in, chasing the American dream, a good job and beautiful places to enjoy when we're not stuck in front of a computer. OREC offices are doing important work, making sure the outdoors continues to be protected, enjoyed, and beneficial to everyone.
And no state has done this better than Arkansas.
The Arkansas Office of Outdoor Recreation has been busy helping show other states how to build departments that listen to local communities and help shape better futures. My guest today has been at the forefront of that effort and of outdoor recreation leadership in Arkansas.
Katherine Andrews is Arkansas's first director of the Office of Outdoor Recreation within the state's Department of Parks, Heritage and Tourism. She has testified before Congress for the Explora act and the Flatside Wilderness Additions Act.
She has also been selected to be the chair of the Confluence of States, a bipartisan organization of offices of outdoor recreation from across the country. So let's open the container with Kathryn Andrews. Katherine, I know that your resume is incredibly deep, far deeper than that.
What other besides the o wreck work, what else are you currently involved in that you're excited about or taking up your time besides about to have a baby here?
Katherine Andrews
00:08:56.429 - 00:09:32.960
Yes, I am a mother. I've got one now and I've got one on the way.
But outside of being director of the office About Direct, I spend a lot of Time in the outdoors in Arkansas. I grew up hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, climbing, doing anything and everything outside.
Heavily involved in all of the outdoor activities in Arkansas, but also civic work. I've held lots of board positions and various roles like that all across the state.
You know, not just professionally, but I like to make sure that I'm getting back to Arkansas in my personal time as well.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:33.480 - 00:10:06.320
Love it.
Well, I am so excited about your state and I have been for a long time about the state of Arkansas because I think more than any other state, I live in Colorado. Colin, our producer here, is in California. State's really known for their outdoor activities.
I think more than any other state, Arkansas has really embraced what outdoor economies can do for your communities. So I'm excited to have you on. I'm excited to talk about this.
Why don't you tell us something that those of us who don't live there do not know about the outdoors in Arkansas that you've been so involved in.
Katherine Andrews
00:10:06.480 - 00:10:51.690
Arkansas is very unique in this part of the country. If you look at a topographic map of the United States, you can really start to understand why.
West and the east in the United States are very mountainous and rugged. And then you've got a lot of flat land in the middle. But Arkansas stands out. We have the highest waterfall between the Rocky and the Appalachians.
Big game hunting. The only state where you can hunt both an elk and an alligator in the same state. World record trout.
We are home to the mountain biking capital of the world, the duck hunting capital of the world, the trout capital of the USA. Thousands of miles of hiking trails, over 600,000 acres of lakes. Arkansas is a sportsman's paradise.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:10:52.010 - 00:11:06.550
So what are some really magical spots? I mean, I know there's so many and there's probably so many places you want to call out.
Maybe let me know, a kind of magical spot in Arkansas that's really popular and maybe a smaller spot or two that that's on the rise that people might not know about.
Katherine Andrews
00:11:06.710 - 00:12:30.340
Well, one of our most popular is the Buffalo National River. This is America's first national river. It is an incredible place. Floating, camping, hiking.
Most known for floating, incredible clear water that you can swim in. It is a beautiful place. We get over a million people every year come and visit the Buffalo National River. It's an incredible place.
If you haven't been, please go check it out. But there are some other really interesting places that are popping up all across Arkansas. I mean, we were born on hunting and fishing.
Our core activities are have always been hunting, fishing in Arkansas. But over the past few decades, we've seen a rise in mountain biking trails, climbing locations, more campsites, RV sites that are popping up.
South Arkansas is a place that doesn't get as much attention as our partners up in Northwest Arkansas, mountain biking and trails and that kind of thing. But south Arkansas is very unique because it's flat. It's the Delta bayous.
We have the start of the world's longest biobar colony and also a place called the Big woods, where they found the Ivoryville Woodpecker. It looks like Jurassic park when you go in there. I mean, huge cypress trees. It's an incredible place.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:30.740 - 00:12:50.550
Well, and this is one of the great things about doing what, what you do, I think, as an outdoor recreation director, is you get to go to these maybe lesser visited communities and really help them bring out what's so great about them as destinations, as places to be preserved ecologically and to sustain their economy as well.
Katherine Andrews
00:12:50.790 - 00:13:00.390
Yeah, that's part of our job, is to help communities across the state really recognize their potential and then expand upon access to that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:00.550 - 00:13:08.470
And if I go down there, I could both possibly see the extinct ivory build woodpecker and also go gator hunting. Huh. Is that the spot to go?
Katherine Andrews
00:13:09.910 - 00:13:10.870
All of the above.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:10.950 - 00:13:52.380
And obviously with the more popular spots, you know, Bentonville, Fayetteville, have done such incredible jobs. I don't know if you heard on the rock fight where we, you know, we're fighting for them as some of our best outdoor towns.
And I think for the past, you know, two decades, even the towns with the mountain bike communities, especially in Arkansas, have done such an incredible job showing just how community can build itself around outdoor recreation.
Before we get too deep into the work you've been doing, can you kind of explain what an OREC is, what a department of Outdoor recreation is, and, you know, what it does and why it's needed.
Katherine Andrews
00:13:52.540 - 00:14:57.400
Utah was the first state that created an office about the recreation back in 2013, following the first report from the Bureau of economic analysis in 2012.
And Utah was the first one that really said we need a centralized office coordinating agency to expand upon these efforts and really help grow this sector of our state's economy. And so since then, many states have joined on to this effort. We're up to 25 now.
Wisconsin is the latest state to create an office aboutdoor recreation. Arkansas was number 16. So we're proud of that.
And it really is a testament to the leadership in our state who recognize, yes, outdoor recreation inherently is a great part of our, of our state.
We love being A natural state, but it really is a true economic driver in Arkansas, and then created this office as a way to help coordinate a lot of efforts across state agencies, federal agencies.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:14:57.800 - 00:15:08.670
How did you guys pull this off?
How did Arkansas really put itself in position to be what I think is really the leader in the country when it comes to showing how outdoor recreation can sustain communities?
Katherine Andrews
00:15:08.910 - 00:16:24.680
Well, we are the natural state here in Arkansas.
So for years and years, inherently, as Arkansans, we have known how important outdoor recreation is to our state, but only within the last, I'd say, couple of decades, we've really started to understand the economic potential of what that means as well. Communities across the state, corporations, state government, federal agencies, have really joined hand in hand to accomplish that.
And it didn't start overnight.
I mean, if you look at Bentonville, northwest Arkansas, in terms of mountain biking, that started in the early 2000s, really with the Walton family, they started building a couple miles of trail here and there and expanded upon that over time.
One thing we like to encourage our communities, mayors, county judges, elected officials, economic developers, chambers of commerce across the state and Arkansas is you don't have to have a whole lot of money or a whole lot of power to get started. Just build a couple miles of trail here and there, utilize different grant programs that are available, and you can really start something powerful.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:16:25.520 - 00:16:33.360
And what is different about the Arkansas orec compared to a recs in other states and the way other places do it?
Katherine Andrews
00:16:33.600 - 00:18:58.960
There are many different forms of offices about direct across the country, so probably about a third are set up within department of natural Resources, a third are set up within the department of Commerce. Then you've got the rest that are either within the governor's office or department of Tourism or other standalone agencies like that.
Some are very focused on industry efforts. Some are very focused on relationships with federal agencies.
Like, for example, Nevada, over 90% of their land area is controlled by the federal government.
Their focus is a little bit different than, say, a state like Michigan who is focused very, very directly on industry efforts and growing industry within the state. So everybody's a little bit different in Arkansas.
When we first created our office back in 2021, we had to sit down and figure out, who are we going to be, what are we going to focus on? We were set up within the department of parks, Heritage and Tourism.
I have a very strong background in economic development, brought a lot of that knowledge and expertise to this role. We had to sit down with our advisory board and figure out what's our mission statement. How are we different from State parks.
How are we different from Arkansas Game and Fish Commission? Where is our niche and our value?
And what we ultimately came up with in our mission statement is that we leverage the state's natural assets to grow the outdoor recreation economy. The philosophy and thinking in that is that if you build it, they will come.
If you help create these spaces and places for people to go outside, that then helps the industry as well. You get more people outside, you create more trails, you help build more access, more people then get outside.
More people that are outside then are more likely to buy a hunting and fishing license or are more likely then to go and hire a guide for the weekend by helping create and build upon infrastructure, build upon resources within the state, not just physical places to go, that then engages more people to get outdoors and use outdoor products as well.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:18:59.280 - 00:19:16.510
And that makes everyone happy too, right? That makes locals happy because they have more places to enjoy and they feel like someone's invested in them.
And it also shows that you can create an economy on a fairly stable, recession proof industry, right?
Katherine Andrews
00:19:16.750 - 00:19:19.790
Yeah. And a very bipartisan industry as well.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:19.870 - 00:19:33.070
That's one of the great things I think too about, you know, your state in particular, which isn't, you know, known necessarily as being left or right, but can drive up the center and, and show people that this isn't outdoor aggression isn't a partisan issue, which is really important.
Katherine Andrews
00:19:33.680 - 00:19:40.000
We are fortunate in that we've been able to stay pretty middle of the lane and keep our initiatives that way as well.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:43.920 - 00:19:53.600
There's the outdoor direct outdoor economic opportunities. But how do other opportunities expand when you create an outdoor destination?
Katherine Andrews
00:19:53.760 - 00:22:51.190
Well, we've got two partners in the state that we serve. That's what we like to say. First is our industry.
So bike shops, boat manufacturer, river guides, outfitters, making sure that they have connections to resources to grow within the state.
And then second is our communities, our mayors, kind of judges, elected officials, those types of folks, really helping them understand the importance of outdoor rec and what that means for quality of life.
And we really try to drive home that by creating trails, launch ramps, fishing piers, playgrounds, whatever it is that that community wants to take advantage of. That not only helps drive tourism, but it gets more people to stay in an area and it gets more people to move to an area.
So we like to use different examples from across the US.
Utah did a study in 2021 of tech sector employees and the data showed that the number one reason for tech sector employees to live and work in the state of Utah was access to outdoor recreation. And then another One that was recently done by state of Maine.
In 2025, they took a survey of people from the DMV and asked them, why did you locate in Maine? And same thing. Access to outdoor recreation was the number one in terms of rural America.
Rural Arkansas, we see a lot of people moving to urban areas and not necessarily wanting to live in rural America, rural Arkansas anymore. Decades ago, we used to see economic developers chasing smokestacks. Big, huge industrial plants. Those days are largely gone.
Some of those facilities have closed down. Textile mills have closed down, sawmills have closed down. And people across Arkansas are trying to figure out, okay, what's next for our community?
How do we really drive economic development in the 21st century? How do we get more people to move back to our area? How do we get young people to want to stay?
And so we use a lot of these tools to help illustrate that, and we've seen a lot of success with it. So in the very beginning, when we were created in 2021, we did a ton of outreach.
I put a lot of miles on that stick car in the first year, driving around, talking about the importance of access. And now I get a lot more phone calls than I do outreach from a lot of folks across Arkansas who say, hey, we really need help.
How do we get this done? How do we build a trail? Really trying to understand what they can do to turn things around by using outdoor recreation.
And that's one of our biggest assets.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:22:51.990 - 00:23:21.320
No, I guess one of the biggest worries about, you know, adopting outdoor recreation is that it will change the character of a community, Right. Especially places where people have lived a long time. I mean, the west gets this really badly, right?
Where a lot of these mountain towns are gone, are not the same places anymore because of so many people with tech jobs moving in, you know, mountain bikers, whatever. How do you balance that? How do you keep the soul and heritage of a community and yet bring in kind of new outdoor recreation?
Katherine Andrews
00:23:21.560 - 00:23:23.640
That is a hard question, sure.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:23:23.640 - 00:23:24.080
Yeah.
Katherine Andrews
00:23:24.080 - 00:24:53.920
I don't know that we have a great answer at this point yet, or a model quite across the country. But one thing that we like to encourage in Arkansas is for locals to help us figure that out themselves.
So what we don't do and what we don't want to do is come in and tell the community, this is what you need. This is who you need to be. How you need to let all these places take over your town. Rather, it needs to be an organic upswell from the community.
Community needs to want it and want to be changing. Some of the dynamic in their town.
And so we really try to work with communities who have that mindset, Volunteer groups, people within city council, across local government who really want to use outdoor recreation and tourism as a way to turn things around. And one thing we like to encourage too, is, you know, start to do master planning.
Now, if you're really starting to think about this stuff that needs to be part of your long term plan, how are you going to address affordable housing, how are you going to address streetscapes? All of these things that come with these challenges that come with bringing more outdoor recreation folks to town planning for that.
Now, if a community is interested in really getting after it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:24:54.180 - 00:25:11.140
Yeah. And it seems that with your job, this is the difficulty of your job. Right.
In the one way it's great where you can build mountain bike trails and people will come.
But then there's so much nuance and so much complexity and so much trying to make this mosaic of how an economy works, how a community works, to all fit together in what you're doing.
Katherine Andrews
00:25:12.020 - 00:25:25.860
Yeah. And we see most of the communities in Arkansas, they want it really badly. They want the trails, they want access to hunting areas.
And so figuring all of this stuff out is a bonus.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:25:29.940 - 00:25:42.900
Beyond, like Bentonville, beyond some of the places people know more about, what are some of the smaller success stories or some success stories that people might not know about as much in Arkansas that you've been a part of or watched grow?
Katherine Andrews
00:25:43.220 - 00:28:13.340
One of the things that we are working on right now are some really big statewide initiatives. Four of our major state parks are getting some massive infrastructure upgrades, and those are pretty publicly known.
But we're also working with the communities surrounding those big state parks to help build up their tourism infrastructure as well. So Little Rock, central Arkansas, the capital of Arkansas, Pinnacle Mountain State park, is about 20, 15, 20 minutes from downtown.
We're doing a lot of trail building and we just built a new visitor center at the park. And we're also working with the city of Woodarach to help capitalize on some of that.
So building connecting trails from downtown to those areas to really help drive more people from the center of town out. And then other places like the Delta Heritage Trail. So this is an 85 mile gravel bike trail. It's a state park in the Delta of Arkansas.
Very, very small rural towns. It is a big project on the state park side, but may not yet be quite nationally known.
However, we have started to get a lot of people that are starting to come down and use the trail. So I was talking to the other Day, the mayor of Arkansas City, Arkansas City is the south end of the trail.
And she called me and she said, I had a guy in here in my office the other day from New York City who flew in with his bike, came into my office and said, where can I go to get a cheeseburger?
So people are already starting to come and starting to recognize some of these places, and Arkansas and our local communities are starting to see it, biking, especially in the Delta. Delta is very flat. It's farmland. Our locals are starting to use gravel trails and road cycling as a way to draw in more tourists.
We're starting to really build upon climbing in Arkansas. That's one of our strengths as well. And Petit Jean State park, we're opening up climbing for the first time at that park.
Very soon we're going to be creating a Via Ferrata and some additional climbing routes within the park. We just hired a guide service to help us there at the park as well. So climbing has really become an upand cominging sport in Arkansas also.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:28:13.580 - 00:28:31.060
Via Ferrata is great, too, for locals, for anyone who's afraid of climbing. Right. For anyone who's never done it before, anyone can go experience it and maybe catch the bug.
Obviously, you can't talk about Arkansas without talking about the Walton Floor family. You know, one of the biggest employer, I believe. Right.
Katherine Andrews
00:28:31.060 - 00:28:31.340
And.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:28:31.340 - 00:28:41.820
Or one of them, at least. And, you know, obviously puts a lot of money back into the state.
How involved have they been with outdoor recreation and the push to really become a leader here?
Katherine Andrews
00:28:42.380 - 00:29:50.900
Yeah, we are incredibly fortunate to have the Walton family in Arkansas. Walmart is Fortune 1, essentially. Really, it is the largest outdoor recreation retailer in the world.
I mean, you go to Walmart to get your fishing tackle in your kayak and your hunting supplies, your backpacks, your hiking shoes. So Bentonville obviously is. Is their hometown and where they've invested a lot of money and time and building up mountain bike trails.
And you can see the results from that, certainly. But they've also helped with Monument Trails in our state park. Monument Trails are mountain bike parks within four of our state parks.
And I believe it was 2023 when they got named by Outside magazine as best mountain bike trails.
They've been really incredible in helping shape both, again, the infrastructure side of things in Arkansas and then really the perception about the recreation. I mean, Arkansas is now on the map for mountain biking, and that's largely in part on the mountain.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:29:50.900 - 00:29:56.580
That's great to see such investment back into the community and back into things that benefit everyone as well, too.
Katherine Andrews
00:29:56.900 - 00:30:15.950
They're very in tune with that sense of place.
And if you invest your time and resources into a place that will really help attract workforce businesses, create a quality of life, especially for corporations like Walmart.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:30:15.950 - 00:30:25.510
Lives in is a up and coming outdoor brand that's based there. I think maybe. Are we going to see more and more brands wanting to start in Arkansas and build up from there?
Katherine Andrews
00:30:26.150 - 00:31:23.140
We are, yeah. We've already recruited multiple different companies come across the US to come to Arkansas.
A lot of cycling brands are starting to relocate to Arkansas, specifically northwest Arkansas, to be in that seating, be around people of like minds, be around the workforce who have skills in that industry. But we're also seeing a lot of recruitment from companies outside of cycling. So the hunting and fishing space as well.
Arkansas has a huge cluster of boat manufacturers. We see a lot of movement into Arkansas of companies who are either subsidiaries of those or related to that sector of the industry in some way.
And then a lot of growth from local companies in duck hunting and climbing. I mean, we've seen it all across the board. It's exciting.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:31:27.220 - 00:31:39.960
As Arkansas continues to grow and as it continues to gain kind of capital in the outdoor industry, how do you think it's poised to really be a national leader in the outdoor space?
Katherine Andrews
00:31:40.280 - 00:32:21.350
We are doing a lot of work on the legislative side, the policy side, to really get in front of that kind of thing during legislative session.
We worked a lot with our legislators on creating new pieces of legislation as well as creating amendments to some of our big recreational abuse statutes. This year as well, we put forth legislation to create the rules and the terms of how to operate a bike park in Arkansas.
We also got the office about direct creation codified this year. So really working with our legislators is one of the big ways that we like to do that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:21.830 - 00:32:39.040
What can Arkansas teach other states when it comes to developing? Especially states that don't, you know, I mean, states that have orec, sure, but what about states that don't yet have an orec?
What would you be able to teach them in setting up an OREC and also in, you know, engaging with community?
Katherine Andrews
00:32:39.920 - 00:34:28.450
Sure.
I've been fortunate to be able to be on some phone calls with the Outdoor Recreation Roundtable folks and prospective states who want to create offices of outdoor recreation and really using a lot of the experience that we've had and that I've had here in the state to help illustrate why an office about to recreation is needed. And a lot of that conversation revolves around really being the central point of contact and in the know of what is happening across the state.
One agency within state government might be working on some kind of issue, but then another ancillary group in another part of the state could be working on something very similar. And neither of them know what's going on.
And so it's our job within the ops about direct to really understand what's happening across the state, to be able to connect these folks.
And that's one of the real big drivers of value that we see as being connection points, being able to facilitate collaboration for initiatives, public private partnerships, that kind of thing.
An example of that, recently we had a state agency working on our Arkansas Game and Fish Commission working on trying to figure out how do we get more people buying hunting and fishing licenses.
And so we pulled in our tourism division and they've been able to have a lot more in depth conversations about promoting fishing and hunting and boating in Arkansas and really collaborating as agencies on that in a way that they haven't necessarily done that too much in the past before.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:34:29.170 - 00:34:51.580
Yeah, I always think it's great to see the Hun and fish communities and the kind of, you know, whatever you call them, human powered wreck, you know, mountain biking, climbing, you see those communities working together. I think that's when real progress can happen. And I know you're involved in the hunt and fish community.
Do you think there's stereotypes about that community that are now fading away, that are changing as we we start to move forward?
Katherine Andrews
00:34:51.980 - 00:36:51.080
Definitely.
Stereotypes like they don't necessarily want to talk to the other side of the outdoor recreation world when in all reality that is changing so much, especially in Arkansas.
Our Arkansas team fish Commission folks have recently started in the last five to 10 years to embrace more paddle sport watchable wildlife activities really as a way to engage more people.
Again, that philosophy and thinking, if you engage more people, if you get more folks outside engaged with the outdoors, that they're more likely then to buy a hunting and fishing license or those types of products. We've seen our hunt and fish folks really get on board with more trail development, equestrian use, mountain biking use.
The trails at MENA project is a really good example of that.
Once it's done, it will be the largest mountain bike park in the country, we hope in Mena, Arkansas, about two, two and a half hours south of Bentonville in the Ouachita mountains and about 1300ft of elevation.
So you'll be able to ride a lift from the bottom all the way up to the top, which is a state park, and then ride your mountain bike down all the way back. So this is a huge project both for state parks and the U.S. forest Service.
But we've also visited just very closely with our backcountry hunters and anglers in that area to try to collaborate on how do we create more of these mountain bike trails and hiking trails, but also not disturb our bear hunters, our deer hunters, who have historically been on that part of the mountain. And so there's a lot more discussion and open communication about what all of that looks like than there really task before.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:36:51.400 - 00:37:19.560
Yeah, and I think that brings up a really great point, which is, you know, outdoor recreation is always great, but it's also a use of the land. And I think hunters especially, you know, are.
Are really interested in conservation and conserving species and, you know, conserving the land for its own good, you know, and not just building trails everywhere, despite the economic benefits there. So that's also a difficult line to walk, right? How you can. How can you conserve while you also develop?
Katherine Andrews
00:37:20.170 - 00:37:27.450
We're not making more land, and so we all have to work together to figure out how we're going to use it in harmony.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:37:31.450 - 00:37:55.340
Hunting and fishing with buying those licenses. That also puts a lot of money into conservation and into taking care of these places.
And I know our mutual friend Luis Benitez is a very big proponent of a sort of everyone who uses the land paying in to help take care of those costs as well, instead of just putting that burden on people who hunt fish. Is that something you think about?
Katherine Andrews
00:37:55.580 - 00:38:58.370
In some ways. And in Arkansas, we really kind of address that issue in one way. So we have what's called Amendment 75 that was created, I believe, back in the 90s.
Amendment 75 creates a portion of Arkansas sales tax, goes into a fund to fund conservation. So it goes to Arkansas State Parks, Arkansas Family Fish Commission, Arkansas Natural Heritage Commission, and the Keep Arkansas Beautiful.
Our forefathers have really been instrumental in thinking through some of those issues. And so we see a lot of money.
You know, if you go to the grocery store, you go and you get gas or, you know, buy a tv, part of that sales tax goes into conservation. It goes into building trail, building cabins, building fishing piers, that kind of thing in Arkansas.
And so people are inherently already in tune with a lot of that stuff right now.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:38:58.610 - 00:39:17.650
Well, that's great to hear. Just another example of how well your state is kind of thinking this through and building it up.
It's really a great model, I think, for everyone else. Now, we've talked about your Orec and other orecs. You know, how can all these different orecs work together.
You know, how can they talk to each other? What can they do to kind of plan and work together?
Katherine Andrews
00:39:17.890 - 00:40:22.510
So there is an organization called Confluence of States. It is essentially the gathering, the association, if you will, of all of these offices about the recreation across the country.
We are guided by Clyde's pillars within the Confluence of States. We all sign accords when we join, and essentially that gives us a roadmap, a guidebook of how to operate together.
We also have gatherings twice a year.
We have monthly calls where we get on and talk about different challenges that we're having in our states, different initiatives that are taking place really as a sounding board for what's going on. Because again, like I said, the first office was created in 2013. That's not that long ago.
So these concepts of these offices about drug creation are still fairly new in terms of state government world. And so it's imperative that all of us have this network, this convenience where we can bounce ideas, challenges off of each other.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:40:22.910 - 00:40:45.550
Well, I'm guessing that these departments are springing up because outdoor recreation is only becoming more popular, only growing. And I know you told me that in your state you are tasked with doubling outdoor recreation over the next 10 years. How are you going to do that?
What's kind of, what's the plan to, you know, make that sustainable and fruitful over the next decade?
Katherine Andrews
00:40:45.950 - 00:44:25.240
Governor Sanders has tasked us with doubling the outdoor recreation economy in 10 years. So that means growing from 3.5 billion in 2022 to 7 billion in 2032, using the Bureau of Economic Analysis numbers.
So a couple years ago, we commissioned Heartland Forward to do a big economic impact study for us, really diving deep into those BEA numbers and helping us understand where is our growth potential within the outdirect economy in Arkansas. How can we move the needle? If this is our task, how do we accomplish it?
We were able to pull out about four different categories within the outdoor economy and the industry to focus on number one. And number two, really are going to be more along economic development strategy.
So boating and fishing, hunting, shooting and trapping, those are two where Arkansas already excels. Like we've already talked about, those are core to Arkansas's outdoor recreation identity.
Building upon industry efforts, helping with our entrepreneurs in this sector, doing activations at events like Shot Show.
Every year, we work with our Department of Commerce on an Arkansas reception at Shot show, helping recognize the industry, helping say thank you for doing business here in the state, and then helping recruit more companies as well.
And then on the hunting and shooting and trapping Side also is more of that outreach and then the other two where we want to focus a little bit more on the tourism side. The infrastructure development side of things is one, climbing, hiking and tent camping. And then number two is cycling.
So we're already seeing a huge growth in terms of tourism in cycling in Arkansas. A lot of efforts on the industry side, but the activity of cycling in Arkansas has really taken off.
So helping with infrastructure development, helping our communities build up more cycling related infrastructure. We did a an Arkansas House at Sea Otter Classic.
This is I believe our second year that we did it in partnership with Visit Bentonville Tourism and Runway. And this really is kind of same thing as shot show. Welcome folks. Said thank you for doing business in Arkansas. If you do, we want you to come visit.
We want you to experience the mountain biking capital world and cycling in Arkansas. Doing a lot of those activations in partnership with our tourism division, local CBBs.
Really helping spread the word on the tourism infrastructure side of things. And then same for climbing, hiking and tic camping. And then as well on the entrepreneurial side of things.
So a lot of the initiatives that we have right now are focused on small business development and growth. So we have within the University of Arkansas the Greenhouse Outdoor Recreational Program. It's a business incubator.
Folks within Arkansas who have an idea on a napkin and say, I've been hiking in Arkansas for years and I've thought about creating a new backpack or I want to be a guy. How do I do that? This greenhouse Outdoor recreation program is set up in a way that will propel those ideas forward. So what will that with them? Yeah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:44:29.320 - 00:44:33.780
So what's your big vision? What would you like to see in 10 years? Where would you like to be?
Katherine Andrews
00:44:34.100 - 00:44:54.900
Oh my gosh, I would love to see Arkansas in the top five in all of these categories. We already are big players in many of these areas that we've talked about.
But in terms of our overall outdoor recreation economy, I think we have a lot of room to grow. And so I want to see Arkansas in the top five.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:44:55.060 - 00:45:11.800
Love that.
I mean, as I think I told you to start, you know, I think for those of us really in the know have been following the industry, we're so impressed by everything you've been doing and where Arkansas is at right now and how it's been able to, you know, punch up there to the top already. So I think that's attainable easily.
Katherine Andrews
00:45:11.880 - 00:46:22.490
Thank you. Yeah, we're excited about it. And one thing I wanted to mention as well is this buy in from the top levels of state government.
That is one really important distinction for Arkansas. You know, we were 16th formal office about Durac and I mentioned it was a big testament at the time was our creation of this office.
But that was under then Governor Asa Hutchinson.
Now we are under Governor Sanders and she has created in 2023 the Natural State Initiative, which is an advisory council of folks from across the industry, from the private sector, from different state and federal agencies coming together to advise her on different outdoor rec initiatives, policy actions for tourism, all kinds of things to help curtail the outdoor recreation economy at the very top level of state government.
That's one thing that's unique to Arkansas and we're very fortunate to have her buy in as well as the first gentleman as really helping us with a lot of these efforts.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:46:22.730 - 00:46:44.090
Yeah, it's amazing to see politicians who actually want to make things happen make this commitment on this level. It's great that you have that in your state and it shows. And it shows to the rest of the country, I think too.
And I'm going to leave you with the last question that we ask everyone as the last question on this show and that is simply what gives you hope?
Katherine Andrews
00:46:45.540 - 00:47:07.220
The next generation, that's for sure. Being a mom to a two and a half year old daughter and then a very soon being born the second daughter, they give me hope.
Being able to see outdoor recreation and them especially my daughter now experiencing the world through her eyes, that gives me hope.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:47:07.540 - 00:47:11.540
Fantastic. Well, again, thank you so much for being on the show. You give me hope.
Katherine Andrews
00:47:11.540 - 00:47:12.980
Thanks for having me. This was fun.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:47:13.380 - 00:48:02.750
The work you guys are doing in Arkansas gives all of us hope, I think, for outdoor recreation across the country, across the world. So thank you. Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight llc.
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com if you want to learn more about the potential and success of outdoor recreation departments, pick up Luis Benitez's outstanding book, Higher how the Outdoor Recreation Industry Can Save the World. Benitez, who was the first guest on Open Container and Colorado's first OREC director, is a proponent of a national Outdoor Rec office.
Our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True, art direction provided by Sarah Genser. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some thanks for listening.
