Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) outdoor industry insider Eoin Comerford returns to give Colin and Producer Dave his perspective on some of the topics that we've been covering lately.
Eoin discusses the loss of identity and authenticity brands deal with after being acquired by larger corporations. Using Marmot, Mountain Hardwear, and Columbia's new creative push examples their conversation explores the importance of maintaining a connection to a brand's roots and the risks associated with prioritizing short-term financial gains over long-term brand health. They also look at why a brand like Vasque failed when they maintained the same ownership over their lifetime.
Additionally, Eoin highlights the growing opportunity in the secondhand market, emphasizing its potential to make outdoor gear more accessible to younger consumers while fostering sustainability.
Lastly Eoin offers his initial thoughts of what to expect the outdoor industry should expect from a second Trump presidency and why we need to prioritize sustainability, conservation, and inclusivity.
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Episode Transcript
Colin True
00:00:00.400 - 00:01:57.351
Halloween may be over, but there are plenty of scary stories out there about some of our industry's longest tenured brands. But hey, retail buyers, do we have a feel good story for you. Shake off those October cobwebs with Royal Robins. Yeah, that's right, Royal Robins.
If you're like, really? Yeah, really.
Royal Robins is one of the true OGs of outdoor brands, part of that early group of California climbers who kind of kicked off the modern era right alongside Tompkins and Chouinard of the North Face in Patagonia. So if anyone can step up, they can. I spoke a bit with Royals brand president Eric Burbank recently and they're making moves and planning routes.
They're focused on natural fibers, tight merchandising, and a range that knows what it stands for. All stuff that Royal himself would be down with too, I bet.
I'm hoping to have Eric on the Rock Fight soon so we can dig more into the rise of Royal and I will say I've been wearing one of their new wool pieces. It's pretty damn good, guys.
So you can meet the Royal Robins team in Kansas City at Goa Connect November 11th to the 14th, stop by their booth, see say hi, maybe throw a few rocks. If you do, just tell them that Colin sent you. Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True, and today on the show, outdoor industry insider Owen Comerford returns to weigh in on a few topics that we've been discussing around here recently. But before we get to that, we need you to become the Rock Bites number one fan by clicking follow or you are listening.
And on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on also hit five stars. And if you want to be a real champ, write a review on Apple Podcasts.
Be sure to also listen to and follow Gear and Beer, the second podcast on the Rock Play Podcast Network. And hey, are there more pods coming? If that's the second one, stay tuned because we'll let you know more about that in the coming weeks.
But until then, pledge your loyalty to Gear and Beer. Also, if you want to reach out to the show, we encourage you to do so. Send your emails to myrockflight and all right, let's start the show.
Chris DeMakes
00:01:57.423 - 00:02:01.435
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:02:02.655 - 00:02:47.115
Not much to say am I open here today other than Owen Comerford is back on the Rock Fight.
Owen's profile has been rising in the industry lately with lots of in depth and interesting posts on industry topics on LinkedIn and some opinions he's had published in the Daily.
So we were excited to have him come back on and weigh in on the recent run of topics we've been kicking around here on the Rock Fight, things like zombie brands and E commerce. So stick around because it's going to get good.
Welcome back to the Rock Fight, where today we hear from the Rock Fights consigliere and industry insider Owen Comerford. All right, Owen Comerford, the Rock Fights official outdoor industry corps. What are we calling you?
We need to call you something because you're, you know, you're now on the show. What is it? Considering?
Eoin Comerford
00:02:47.695 - 00:02:50.953
Yeah. Industry consolidator. Absolutely.
Colin True
00:02:51.089 - 00:02:57.057
I dig you're a Robert Duvall. That's what someone bring in comfort.
Producer Dave
00:02:57.161 - 00:02:58.681
That's right. I love that.
Colin True
00:02:58.713 - 00:02:59.685
How you doing, man?
Eoin Comerford
00:03:00.105 - 00:03:08.241
I'm great. Well, you know, we're recording this in the day after the election, so we'll say I'm surviving.
Colin True
00:03:08.393 - 00:03:09.685
Did something happen?
Eoin Comerford
00:03:10.505 - 00:03:15.069
I don't know. It was a thing. Something. It was all over the news, I think. Yeah.
Colin True
00:03:15.217 - 00:03:52.951
Yeah, it's rough. We're going to talk a little bit about that at the end.
So the last few weeks have been interesting and you've been posting about some things that we've been talking about on the show and we've been talking a lot about what we've been kind of, you know, titled zombie brands. Right. And it's the notion that they are these once relevant brands that still exist but are a shadow of what they once were.
You know, we've seen the poor states of brands like Marmot and Prana over the last few weeks and the common theme throughout all of it that we've identified, I think you have as well, is the sort of poor stewardship by big corporate owners.
Now, you have a kind of interesting position here because you came into the industry by joining a quote unquote, relatively small retailer, but also one with had a really strong brand in Moose Jaw.
Eoin Comerford
00:03:52.983 - 00:03:53.127
Right.
Colin True
00:03:53.151 - 00:04:18.815
I mean, I remember in my past industry career, you know, Moose Jaw is just kind of one of those dealers that you want to be in because the brand had a presence as a retailer, but then you also have the experience of staying with that brand through some big corporate ownership.
So let's just start with, given your experience on this front, you know, what are some of your observations when you see a brand like a Marmot or some of these other ones that at one time had significant clout but now sort of appearing as a shell of Its former self.
Eoin Comerford
00:04:19.595 - 00:07:14.585
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of reasons why these things don't work out a lot.
One is, you know, typically the founder or the person who really built the company up until it was acquired, exit stays left and so you lose a lot of that. Which thankfully wasn't the case with the Moose Jaw team. We were very much intact after we were acquired.
But that really does create, create a bit of a, that linkage to the past and to the brand and to the authenticity can get a little bit lost.
And you know, so, so the corporate overlord will bring in either somebody from their, you know, team, which is usually awful, or the quote unquote industry professional, you know, that, that sort of 50 something white male that, you know, kind of bounces from company to company. I mean we, we are in an incredibly incestuous industry. You know, it's like we're, you know, the same people keep popping up at different brand.
But that's not to say that those are bad folks, but they kind of get in the same playbook and just aren't connected to the brand itself. And then they're put under very typically very specific edicts and bonus structures. Right.
They've got a pretty big bonus and it's all linked to sales and margin. Right? That's the whole deal. And so you start really getting forced, I guess into making decisions that are very short sighted, right?
I mean you're just chasing the number. And if you're purchasing growth, you've got a few options, right? You can either sell more to your existing customers.
So you start shoving it, you know, shoving it down everyone's throat.
Oh, an extra, an extra pre season discount if you increase Your buy by 20% year over year and you know, yada yada, and that whole thing starts, right? Or you, or you sell more things.
So you decide, hey, okay, yeah, we make these hiking backpacks, but you know, we're going to make panniers and messengers and all these other things. And shoes, everyone should make shoes, you know. And so, you know, you start to expand maybe beyond your core or.
And this happens even worse is like we're, we're going to sell to more people. So, okay, independent specialty. That's a lot of work, you know, with a lot of small players. Let's sell to the big guys.
Let's start to sell to sporting goods and off price and all these other places, you know. And I think, I think Marmot basically did all of those things at some point.
They denied some of it, but come on, I mean you know, them show like the precip was a great example. Right. I mean, this was sort of their flagship product and they're like, how do we make even more money on this?
I know we'll knock off our own product, name it something else, sell it to Sierra and they can sell it for 20% under what we're selling at regular retail. Brilliant idea. You know, I mean, but that's what happens when you've got no connection to the past and all you think about are the numbers.
Colin True
00:07:15.005 - 00:07:50.155
It's just the disease of more. Right. It just continues. I mean, and you don't get sold unless somebody sees financial upside because otherwise why are they buying you?
And because it's not to say that these owners, I guess, couldn't do what the. Couldn't retain that authenticity. But to your point, they're not, they're not. There's not that emotional attachment to it. There's not that thing.
Well, maybe we shouldn't do this. It's just like, how do we grow? How do we grow and just push, push, push.
And at some point, I mean, it works out, I guess in some regards when you have like a North Face or some, or a Patagonia. But it seems like those examples are fewer and far between versus the ones who get acquired and then just kind of lose their fastball along the way.
Eoin Comerford
00:07:50.495 - 00:08:57.465
Yeah, I mean, even like you look at Mountain Hardware is a great example. Right. So Mountain Hardware was actually acquired by Columbia.
I didn't realize this until I was chatting with somebody who was in the business a couple of days ago. They were acquired in 2003, right? Yeah, so, so early days, the first like 10ish years of that, Columbia basically left them alone.
And they did really well. I mean they, they were, I know from Moose show, they were like a top five brand for us.
I mean they, they kind of had a core, they had kind of a cool factor, you know, and there was a definite niche, a higher end brand. And then I don't know if sales started to decline or what exactly happened internally, but Columbia started to get way more involved.
And I think somebody at Columbia had this genius idea, hey, listen, you know what we could do? We could take our Columbia jackets, right, with our own internal, you know, fabrications and you know, two and a half layer technology.
Right, whatever. Omni. Exactly. And we'll just change the brand name. We'll double the price. Consumers will eat this shit up. You know, Q Dry or whatever it was called.
Right?
Colin True
00:08:57.505 - 00:08:57.809
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:08:57.857 - 00:09:14.897
Get rid of all that Gore Tex crap. Who needs that? Uh, and it was just like they, it's like they turned, just turned off the switch.
I mean, we just, like, we just saw that brand just go successively down, down, down, down, down. I mean, for years it was down 20% a year.
Colin True
00:09:14.921 - 00:09:41.955
For years. Well, they decontented stuff too. Even like the fleece programs, they would start using cheaper stuff.
I mean, yeah, the early kind of 2000 teens, mid 2010s were rough times for Mountain Hardware.
I mean, they were definitely, you know, if, if we did this episode a year ago, I'd be talking about them in the same way we talked about Marmot, you know, and I think to. And we're gonna talk a little bit more about Colombia in a minute.
But to credit to them that they sort of let them in this last year feel like really reestablish themselves about what makes their brand interesting.
Eoin Comerford
00:09:42.375 - 00:10:21.717
Right.
And they, they allowed them to, to, you know, it's not all about Gore Tex necessarily, but they allowed them to go outside of the Columbia family and, and, and make the best product out there with the best possible ingredient, materials, et cetera. And the consumer is responding, right? I mean, it's working. So, yeah, you know, having a hands off approach I think is key.
But the problem and I think what with most corporate folks, they'll say going in, oh, we want to be hands off. Right? And typically as long as you're hitting your numbers, they'll stay hands off.
But as soon as things start to get rough, then it's like, okay, now.
Colin True
00:10:21.821 - 00:10:23.397
Don'T maybe come back there, kids.
Eoin Comerford
00:10:23.541 - 00:10:27.613
Yeah, we got to bring in somebody else who's going to get us our 15% a year.
Colin True
00:10:27.669 - 00:10:31.121
We got this guy from Amazon just itching to get his hands on you.
Eoin Comerford
00:10:31.313 - 00:10:41.065
Oh yeah, this guy came out of Quaker Oats. Really knows consumer is really going to come in here and blow it up for us.
Colin True
00:10:41.105 - 00:11:05.845
He sold to Ralph's, so we think he'll do okay with rei. It'll be fine. What do you think happened with Vasquez? I mean, we've talked about Vasque, but Vasquez was one.
I remember when Dave and I first saw the story, we were chatting a bit about it and kind of almost assuming that Red Wing had acquired them and kind of had this similar thing that we're talking about. But no, they were with Red Wing the entire time. They just never really managed that brand well.
Even though they had sort of one of those iconic products in the Sundowner.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:05.885 - 00:11:32.425
I think Vasquez is a, it's a similar story with like Eureka versus Jeff Boyle, Sierra versus Kelty.
You know, in these sort of family of brands, approaches, I think what can happen is when you have one brand that's doing well or, you know, like Red Wing itself really sort of took off a number of years ago and kind of has. You know, it's always been a great brand, but. But it went beyond just a work boot to kind of a cool, hip happening.
Colin True
00:11:32.465 - 00:11:37.885
Yeah, the whole hipster phenomenon, that's partly. It was a north. It was a northwest thing.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:40.305 - 00:11:45.401
There are hipsters that would. That would disagree with you, but no.
Producer Dave
00:11:45.433 - 00:11:57.923
They would have called them the Georgia boot that then got turned into Skechers before all of that. But you're right, they got the. They got some of the table scraps of that, of that movement. Right.
Colin True
00:11:57.979 - 00:12:00.547
I've offended Danner with my health care.
Producer Dave
00:12:00.691 - 00:12:06.535
Danner's the one who really capitalized. But that was many years later for sure. But sorry.
Eoin Comerford
00:12:07.115 - 00:12:52.591
That's okay. We start talking footwear and Dave just can't contain himself. These deep cuts.
But the point is just that in those sorts of scenarios, though, in a company that maybe has some limited investment dollars, the dollars tend to follow the success, you know, with Red Wing doing well. And so they want to lean in there.
And it's not that they necessarily say we're going to lean out of Ask or we're going to lean into Jetboil and forget about Eureka, but it can kind of become that because all the best people want to work on that brand. The dollars go there.
And I think, you know, these other brands get a little bit forgotten or become sort of redheaded stepchildren, and you see what happens along the way.
Producer Dave
00:12:52.743 - 00:13:06.667
Also too, though, it comes out of an organization like a Red Wing. The reason I kind of popped up there is because, yeah, they were the 100 year overnight success in terms of that hipster.
They never marketed in that way. They've never marketed in any way.
Eoin Comerford
00:13:06.811 - 00:13:07.163
So.
Producer Dave
00:13:07.219 - 00:13:32.305
And that's the what. That's the ingredient that Vasque needed to help consolidate and propel and leverage that, especially that 90s trend. Right.
They were never able to move to marketer and demand generator because their organization was never really, in my mind, was never set up for it. They never had to. Right. They had a. They had a position, a market position almost to themselves. Or work was just kind of its own thing anyway. Right.
Colin True
00:13:32.425 - 00:13:37.657
Wouldn't you think that that would be beneficial to Vast then? That they were just kind of like, hey, we got this cool hiking, like, leave it alone.
Producer Dave
00:13:37.761 - 00:13:56.637
It's all great until you want to grow. But look Even look at even those trend, you know, like, oh, they adopted us. You still need to.
Timberland didn't just do nothing and allow, you know, the wheat boot. Oh my gosh, everybody's buying the wheat boot. That may have started it, but it certainly takes some energy and thought to maximize it.
Eoin Comerford
00:13:56.821 - 00:14:10.237
Same thing with Doc Martens back in the day. That boot was actually developed not to be a hip punk rocker boot from the 70s. It was really initially developed for.
It was more of a medical application. Medical and workwear application.
Producer Dave
00:14:10.301 - 00:14:52.195
It was. It was. And then moving into that. It's funny you talk about footwear. Actually was part of the launch of Dr.
Martin's industrial in the late 90s, early 2000s. So bringing that boot to the work market, right? And it's the same idea.
You had this massive brand awareness and even the space, but still you had to market and build the credibility. You had to build the contacts with the, with the. What is it, the. The jobbers in terms of who's hiring and. And all of the kind of form.
Because I'm missing the word of the catalog consolidators that, that you had to buy your work boots from. You're getting all, you know, certified rangers.
Eoin Comerford
00:14:52.235 - 00:14:52.979
Of the world and those.
Producer Dave
00:14:53.027 - 00:15:00.715
Yeah, exactly. So that's a marketing task, right, in terms of bringing all that together. But yeah, nothing.
Colin True
00:15:00.835 - 00:15:14.019
You can say what you want about the yellow boot and the urban crowd or even like the sundowner with like the college kids. There's been no better match than the Dr. Martin and the punk rock scene. Sorry. This is the best thing of all time. And it's persist to this day.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:14.147 - 00:15:16.731
You know, in the 90s, my docs back in the day.
Producer Dave
00:15:16.803 - 00:15:24.807
Yeah, but they were, they were hesitant to use that. Right. Even because back in, you know, they had a department store business. They were making sandals.
Colin True
00:15:24.951 - 00:15:28.635
You know, even the logo like matches kind of the punk rock vibe.
Producer Dave
00:15:29.855 - 00:15:41.151
It's kind of like vans. When they realize, wait a minute, this is our subculture, let's own that piece and grow mainstream growth will grow out of that.
Colin True
00:15:41.343 - 00:16:23.083
Well, so you look, think about opportunities that came out of that, right? So, you know, because as things evolve, it just does open up opportunities, you know.
And so you talked to some specialty shops about old guard using air quotes.
You know, outdoor brands that are meaningful still today in terms of like, you know, important that they have them, that they, they sell a lot of that stuff. But they also seem very vulnerable, like the North Faces and the Patagonias. It just.
They're still a pretty high percentage and Talking to some folks like friend of the show, Wes Allen or Todd Frank up at the Trailhouse. But everyone seems like they're very open to something else as well. Right? So, I mean, are we. Do you think we're at the beginning, Owen, of a.
Of a run of interesting new outdoor brands? Are we kind of at heyday of like outdoor 2.0? Like, where do you think we are when it comes to in the branding scene these days?
Eoin Comerford
00:16:23.179 - 00:18:55.991
I think we could be.
I mean, I work with a ton of emerging brands that are coming up with some really, really fun stuff, some of which have been actually on your show and soon will be. But I think, unfortunately, our industry dynamic is not set up to make that happen. Right.
Because all these brands are trying to break into wholesaler, specialty and the rep environment. And I'm not knocking reps. Let me just preface this.
I'm not rocking reps, but the rap environment is not one that is just built for newness and for new brand launches, right? Because, I mean, ultimately reps, you know, and not blaming them for this, they got to put food on the table, right?
But you know, they have their kind of golden goose brands and they're the ones that they want to spend their time and effort on, you know, and you know, okay, maybe they're only making a 5% commission on whatever Nemo or, you know, Osprey or what have you. And okay, so Maybe they're getting 8 or 10% from this new brand, but 10% of nothing is still nothing, right?
And so, you know, it's like, even if they're repping a brand and, you know, I was talking to one rep, he said, yeah, it's one thing to sign, to sign up a rep or for a rep to sign on a brand, but do they get out of the bag? And I'm like, what, what does that mean?
And it's like, well, what it means is I go into a, you know, I've got X amount of time with a buyer at a certain store, right? And so I'm going to start with the big brand. I'm going to start with whatever the Osprey, the Nemo, the north, whatever it is, right?
I'm going to start there. And then if things are going well, I'm probably just going to keep with that.
If I'm getting my buy, getting my numbers in, I'm going to do that, you know, and at the end of the time, if I've got time left, maybe. Oh, and hey, have you seen new brand? Right? And bring that out of the bag for a lot of reps.
Maybe that brand never makes out of the bag and so it's just tough. And then the other thing also is sort of the whole kind of category exclusivity thing.
So you're some brand that has a new apparel brand or a new pants brand or whatever and chances are that reps already have a pants brand and you know, are they going to give up prana to pick up lives in or whatever? Yeah, probably not. And so our industry is just not set up.
And then we used to have, you know, trade shows where these brands could, you know, overpay for a booth and they could, you know, hopefully get in front of a whole bunch of buyers. That's not really happening anymore in an effective way.
And now I've talked a lot with it with them with Sean, Sean Smith over at or and they're trying to lean into that, which I think is cool.
Colin True
00:18:56.023 - 00:18:57.615
Yeah, the emerging brands, will that be.
Eoin Comerford
00:18:57.655 - 00:19:00.783
Successful and I don't know. Your guess is good as mine.
Colin True
00:19:00.919 - 00:20:57.887
Yeah, this next year is going to be interesting for that scene. I'll beat up on the reps and I'll beat up on the brands too.
As a former sales manager, I think you know, some of the problems you're describing are age old problems. As someone like when I was managing even a GOO when I was a sales manager there for a little while where pretty well established brand.
But to your point, you know, if the, if you have Asics, you know, are you, how long are you spending on goo?
So but then that was my challenge as a sales manager is like how do I create programs, how do I create ways, create ways to help the sales reps understand my role will never be more than as a B plus brand for those reps. Right. So the brand I think needs to pay a play a role with when it comes to that.
But then also, you know, there was always a gap between the really good reps and then the sort of, no offense reps who are listening. The C level, D level reps who, you know, it was always easy to get, you know, get a brand to. They would always take a brand on.
And the good reps to me were the ones who would make that time. Even if it was like I'm at probar, I'm at goo. Hey, I just got through my ASICS presentation. Hey, here's a sample. We had a program running on.
I'll follow up with an email. And they would follow up with the email. But now this is, you know, 10 plus years ago that I was doing this.
And you talk to reps today, and the really good reps today, they have edi, they process orders.
There's a whole other level that some of these really good sales agencies have gone to that make it next to impossible for even some C plus, B minus agencies to match. And so to your point, if I'm a emerging brand, I think you chatted, you mentioned this on something you wrote for the Daily.
The innovations coming from the people who are kind of just doing on their own. Right. It's the Varis and those kinds of the ons.
Those are the brands you've seen grow, who have kind of, you know, pioneered their own brands and their own points of distribution and things like that.
But I still wonder if, you know, a good idea, a good product, a good brand can sometimes, you know, get past some of the bullshit and find traction, even if, you know, there's a lot of roadblocks in the way. So I don't know. I think you're probably right with your answer of, like, it could be we'll see where we are.
I think it all depends on the brands and what the retail response is to those brands.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:57.911 - 00:21:45.955
Ultimately, you know, hopefully the vigorous brands will break through. I mean, you had. You had Scenic on the pod last week. There's a. You know, there's a brand that is doing some different stuff, and we need different.
Right. We need, you know, like, you know, I think I was so. So actually I was at a investor conference where Scenic presented. Right.
And, you know, we had some sort of old. It was an outdoor investor conference, so we had some old guard folks, and we had.
After they presented, everyone presented, we kind of did a little debrief with all the investors about the different. Different companies. And the comment from one sort of one guy was like, about the Scenic hiking place.
Like, those don't look like any hiking pants I've ever seen.
Colin True
00:21:47.615 - 00:21:49.815
Great sales pitch, right?
Eoin Comerford
00:21:49.855 - 00:21:51.655
My answer was, that's the whole thing.
Producer Dave
00:21:51.695 - 00:21:52.955
It's a bumper sticker.
Eoin Comerford
00:21:53.335 - 00:21:58.903
Yeah. It's like, dude, we need different. We need new and innovation and excitement. Yeah.
Colin True
00:21:58.919 - 00:22:30.855
And what's cool about that brand, too, is. And one reason we chose to have them on, even though we don't feature, like, a lot of brand stories, was, you know, we get the pitches you hear.
I think we first heard about them, probably an outdoor market alliance, you know, the CGPR is pitching them, and you hear, like, oh, we have a new outdoor, you know, apparel brand. And of course, Dave and I, both textile backgrounds are like, all right, God, Jesus Christ. Another One. Right.
Like, but then the moment I saw a picture of it, I'm like, oh, just even for the color, even if nothing else was different, like that's a bold choice. And then you peel it back a little bit, you're like, oh, all right. This is very cool what they're doing.
Producer Dave
00:22:31.435 - 00:23:10.035
Right. Well, I think that that speaks to.
While the, our industries, like you said, the gate is getting narrower and narrower in terms of getting into our traditional retail. There are more opportunities for a brand to distinguish itself and establish itself through the D2C through other mechanisms.
And at the end of the day, it's still that innovation piece that's distinguished. Why am I different? Still wins. Right? I mean you look at Viori and on. I mean those are.
They, they created something that attracted massive amounts of money. Okay. So they have purchased their way in.
Colin True
00:23:10.195 - 00:23:11.739
Not waiting it's own form of innovation.
Producer Dave
00:23:11.827 - 00:23:24.571
Not waiting for the sales agencies to catch up. Right.
They powered their way through, but it was because they had other avenues to build that before they were able to force their way into the party.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:24.723 - 00:23:48.743
But it's super hard to be a profitable brand if you're D2C only. It just with the costs of Meta and everything else along the way, you have to have wholesale, you have to have omnichannel if you're going to win.
And so unfortunately, some brands are just going to run out of steam before they get that wholesale piece because the two just go hand in hand. But yeah, absolutely.
Producer Dave
00:23:48.879 - 00:24:03.347
I think that's an underappreciated reality, is the cost of business doing D2C. We see the upset, we see the massive numbers that are potential. Yeah. You see the margin that you get to keep. Oh my God.
Colin True
00:24:03.411 - 00:24:09.995
You'd think everyone would know by now, right? I mean, it's been so well covered. Right? About like, hey, it's not, it's not what you think when you have your.
Producer Dave
00:24:10.035 - 00:24:15.379
Investor conference talking about, you know, that being different in a negative light. There you go.
Colin True
00:24:15.507 - 00:24:16.179
Right?
Eoin Comerford
00:24:16.347 - 00:25:12.845
Yeah, yeah. Fundraising is tough out there for outdoor brands. It really is.
Because, you know, like the VC thing doesn't exist for outdoor because VCs, they want the next billion dollar thing. Right. And let's face it, there's not a lot of billion dollar outdoor brands.
I mean, quite frankly, there's a lot of $20 million outdoor brands that are household names, you know, from, from a volume perspective. So it requires a different sort of funding. Source of funding. Yeah. So. But there's, there's a lot of really cool brands out there.
If retailers are willing to look and give them a shot.
And, you know, from what we've seen, you know, if they don't just shove them away in the corner, if they really do take a chance with some brands and create some interest and innovation, I think it helps everybody. It helps them. It gets the new customers in the door. It gets some engagement and some excitement.
Producer Dave
00:25:12.965 - 00:25:25.105
Oh, and how does a brand that's maybe got some traction going, how do they find their way to outdoor investment? What's the path to do that?
Eoin Comerford
00:25:28.025 - 00:26:11.011
It's tough. I mean, usually brands, as they're starting up, they'll start out with like a friends and family round, right? And so they get some. Some.
Some dollars that way, and then they'll try to go the angel route.
And there are some angel investment groups that are out there or individual angel investors that, you know, have a little bit of cash, maybe they came out of the industry or just have a love for the outdoors that wants to be involved with an outdoor brand, and you can raise some money that way.
And then beyond that, a lot of it is actually some of the best options are more with friends and family, offices of folks that came out of the outdoors, like the Cliff Bar folks or what have you, who made their dollars in the outdoors and still want to be involved with that area of business.
Colin True
00:26:11.083 - 00:26:49.165
So you also.
Last thing I want to talk about in this part of the conversation before we move into something else, is you posted on LinkedIn about an opportunity you see for a brand like Columbia. Like I said, we come back to Columbia.
So what is it about Columbia that makes you think they could overcome what has kind of held back other big outdoor brands as they look to reset creatively?
Because Dave and I talked a little bit about that a couple of weeks ago, I think on their behind, the moves they're making on the creative front, and the upside they see with their brand.
You know, I'm again, as someone who's been doing in this world for a while, it's tough for me to see as Colombia anything as anything other than Colombia, you know what I mean? So why did you want to take a moment to kind of pause and be like, actually, there could be something here?
Eoin Comerford
00:26:49.585 - 00:29:27.277
Well, I think the first thing is they're actually recognizing a problem that most brands are ignoring, which is the fact that we're doing a really shitty job of bringing young people into the outdoor industry. Right. And we're at a risk of kind of aging out.
I mean, you look at the outdoor participation report that OAA brought out, you know what it's Showing is, yeah, there's more people in the outdoors, but the core group are, are participating less. And I think they're participating less because, you know, the knees are gone, the hips are gone. You know, I mean, they're just getting old.
And the average age of an REI member has got to be north of 50 at this point. I mean, it's not great. And so we need to bring young people into the space.
But part of the challenge is the fact that we've got, we've got, you know, first of all, income inequality is crazy, right? I mean, just the affordability of housing and food and all these other things and it hasn't kept up for the younger generation.
So they can't afford a lot of the stuff that we're producing in the outdoor industry, which, oh, by the way, is getting more and more expensive. I wrote this article in the Daily about it where we've seen 20% inflation on average in the industry over the last three or four years.
So what was already sort of expensive is getting even more expensive.
And you know, you get these people into the outdoors, all these participants who probably like, if you got into camping during COVID yeah, maybe there were some people that were out there buying, you know, some high end tents, but a lot of folks were at Walmart or Dick's, you know, buying whatever the hundred dollar, you know, six person tent is, right? They want to move, you know, they want to move up to a, you know, a six person or even a four man from a, from a, you know, an outdoor brand.
They're looking at three, four, five times the price. Right. So that's not to say that that product isn't worth it, but it's a big step up.
So I think Columbia, A, they've recognized the issue, B, they're more at the value end of the spectrum, which I think will help them with that younger generation. So we're not asking somebody.
This isn't like arc'teryx saying, hey, we're gonna go after the young people and see if we can have them step up to a $600 shell. I love Arc'teryx, by the way, but they wouldn't be the brand I would think here. So I think Columbia has a play. That said, it's.
I mean, the corporate world is strewn with brands that decided to go young and it doesn't always go well. We'll just put it that way.
Producer Dave
00:29:27.381 - 00:30:03.825
Well, I would just ask, how does this differ from the last announcement from Columbia with their last creative agency, which had the mandate to go younger and Level set the brand. You know, they returned the Gert Boyle campaign. They celebrated their, you know, their regionalism.
They, you know, they put popular music into their videos. It just, it just seems like this is just next, next group up on the same, the same mission.
And, and will they allow them, will they allow them to do that? What's necessary?
Eoin Comerford
00:30:04.265 - 00:30:46.107
I think that's the real question. Right. And that's the, I think that's the really tough part with any of these things is, you know, you bring in this young, hip creative agency.
Oh, by the way. So it's called Adam and Eve ddb, by the way. If you go, if you look@adamandeve.com in the U.S. don't do that.
Just, yeah, just if you go to that site, maybe just words the wise, you could do it, but you might. Super edgy. This is. Yeah. So to those on the pile that don't know Adam and Eve is actually in the US is a sex toy site.
So obviously I had no idea about that until I went to the site. But the.
Colin True
00:30:46.251 - 00:30:49.107
You kept having to clear your bookmarks and cookies to like go to the.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:49.131 - 00:30:57.015
Other one, you know, not at all. But yeah. So I'm like, wow, are they going to have some kind of like PFAS free latex bodysuit happening here?
Producer Dave
00:30:58.555 - 00:30:59.179
I think you're on.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:59.227 - 00:31:01.399
It would be an interesting collaboration.
Colin True
00:31:01.517 - 00:31:04.291
Dave, there's your answer. That's how they're going to be different.
Producer Dave
00:31:04.403 - 00:31:06.455
This guy. I'm writing that down.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:08.035 - 00:31:11.395
So. But no, but, so, so they've got the hip young agency.
Colin True
00:31:11.435 - 00:31:11.611
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:11.643 - 00:31:42.669
They bring in this guy Matt Sutton from Facebook, et cetera. The tough part in all these things is usually the agency is going to come up with some really great stuff. No doubt about that. Right.
But is the 50 year old white guy going to know enough to be able to say, hey, that actually is cool and fits the brand or I know that, that, I know, I don't get it. But I think it could work in it. You know, it's, it's, it's the whole buyer versus creative thing is. That's fraught with challenges.
Colin True
00:31:42.837 - 00:31:44.185
Yeah. Yeah.
Producer Dave
00:31:44.885 - 00:31:45.421
Yep.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:45.493 - 00:32:30.875
So. But I would say that and, and Jim Boyle. Sorry, Tim Boyle. Tim Boyle pointed out in the announcement that they're doing really well in Europe.
And so I kind of actually talked with some of the folks in Europe and looked at what they're doing over there and it is interesting. They're taking a bit of a different approach.
They've got something called HIKE society and they're really leaning into HIKE as their core brand identity and organizing regional hikes everywhere. Getting out there doing, working with local, local folks, content creators associations and really just trying to make hike the core.
So I don't know, we'll see where it goes.
Chris DeMakes
00:32:33.535 - 00:33:13.665
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Colin True
00:33:17.475 - 00:34:21.175
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If you don't have an appointment, go by their booth and say hi. Who knows, you may run into Travis and Taylor just hanging out and talking socks. And now back to the show.
All right, so you also had a piece published in the Daily about the upside of secondhand, right? And we've obviously talked a lot on the show about used gear and the impact it can have.
And the day before this conversation, I recorded another sit down with Aaron Provine from Geertrade that will come out next week.
And in that conversation I remarked that how that wasn't that long ago where it felt like folks like Aaron and entities like gear trade were sort of almost like pulling us towards secondhand. And I really does feel like that that is now sort of shifted to more of a p towards secondhand.
You know, what is the opportunity that you're recognizing in the used or secondhand marketplace?
Eoin Comerford
00:34:22.075 - 00:36:56.827
So I see used as a key part of the answer to the affordability issue within the outdoor industry.
And it is a way to get really great outdoor gear in the hands of some of the younger folks or maybe people who couldn't quite step up to the, to the new stuff. And over time, those people, some, some will stick with used, some won't, but some will move up and they'll start to buy the new product. Right.
Like talking with Todd Frank from Trailhead when we were at the Outdoor Media Summit. You know, he has a consignment business. It's over 20% of his, of his sales is this, is this used gear store.
But his comment was, I'm seeing a whole new customer come in.
College kids, you know, moms with young kids, all of these folks that would never come into the store before or felt that it wasn't for them, just from a price and everything perspective. They're coming in, they're trying stuff out.
Or a guy who would always complain about the price of Merino picks up an icebreaker shirt and the next thing is he's back in the store and he's just spending 400 bucks to go head to toe in Merino, right? So I just think used gear today in the industry is being mishandled. Brands are looking at used gear through the lens of a liability, right?
It's like, oh, we got this use gear. What are these returns? What are you going to do with this stuff? Or they're looking at it through the lens of some kind of sustainability cred, right?
So we want to make sure that we've got the checkbox, that we've got our little circularity thing done. And so we're going to announce this, you know, bespoke, you know, gate kept used gear program.
And they're doing it all wrong, all wrong because they're not moving the product like most of these brands. If you actually talk to them, they're like, yeah, we've got a shit ton of this stuff because nobody's buying it from us.
And I'll tell you why nobody's buying it from you. Because you don't have used gear customers. You spend all of your time and effort trying to attract new customers, right?
That's all the targeting through Google, the Meta and everything else is who is going to come in and buy new product, right? When they land on your website or on your PDP or whatever, they've already decided that they're probably going to buy a new whatever, right?
And so even if you did give them the used option at that point, they're probably not going to take it. And most, by the way, most sites don't.
It's hidden away in some corner so that they can say it exists, but it really isn't a key part of what they want to do. And they're deathly afraid that, oh my gosh, if we sell somebody a used thing, they won't buy the new one that's also clogging up the warehouse.
Colin True
00:36:56.891 - 00:37:00.515
Yeah, they become marketing for the new stuff. That's all it is, right?
Eoin Comerford
00:37:00.555 - 00:37:58.241
And so they're thinking about it all wrong. And so it should be like let's treat used as an asset. Let's get into the hands of the people that actually have used customers.
That would be the gear trades of the world like Karen. Right. That would be the, you know, the trailheads of the world. Right. Get it into those people's hands.
You know, every brand out there has like an off price person. Right. And they're responsible for selling all of the discontinued merch to whatever to hopefully mostly the retail partners, but probably Sierra.
But okay, hey, have that person also be in charge of selling your returns and your use gear stuff. You know, it's at an even deeper discount. But you're getting it out there, you're getting into the market.
You're kind of helping everybody in the process and I think you're helping yourself in the process as well because you're getting people into your brand. And so that's kind of how.
Colin True
00:37:58.273 - 00:39:41.285
Yeah, that's what we talked about a bit with Aaron.
Not to spoil the conversation that's coming next week but you know, the one thing I pointed out is exactly what you're saying about a lot of these things. You know, they don't, they build a separate website for it. It's a separate thing and it doesn't, it doesn't mean anything.
Then we, he talked, Aaron talks a lot about, about how, you know, the partnering with Jones and Fly Low and how they're approaching it a different way. Fly Low. It's not just send us only Fly low bibs. Like you can send them any bib. Right. You know, Jones is.
And if you go to Jones's website, they are definitely doing it differently where it's a big tile on their front page of their website about their used program and you can send them any snowboard and it'll get repurposed into a new snowboard.
I think the, the thing that I've definitely learned and Dave and I were had that conversation with Sophie Benson not that long ago who's an environmental fashion journalist.
When you, when you put though the, what we're, what we are doing in the outdoor space against the larger fashion world, like we truly are doing some pretty interesting and innovative things.
But it always, and I think everything it comes back to is, you know, can secondhand reaches potential as long as brands are chasing growth at all costs.
And if it truly is like, you know, if it is for some of these brands and I know I'm overly cynical on this topic, but if some of them, they are absolutely just checking the box to say they had it now frankly I'LL throw Patagonia into that conversation. I think they have to be mentioned is because wornwear has been around the longest and it's still less than 1% of their sales.
And at some point you have to ask like, well, what, what are you doing with this?
Now you might, percentage wise, they're a bigger brand, they might have more on there, they might sell more, but you'd think given who Patagonia is, they'd want that to be a much more meaningful part of their business.
And so while I really do applaud the industry as a whole, that we need that we're doing things differently than a lot of other spaces, there's still definitely some things that are tripping us up, it feels like along the way.
Eoin Comerford
00:39:41.945 - 00:40:09.861
Yeah, I mean, yeah, brands just want to gatekeep this stuff and I just don't think that's the right answer. Ultimately though, you know, we've got some circularity legislation coming down the pipe.
We've got stuff happening in California, stuff happening in Europe.
There's nothing will ever happen actually in the US obviously, but state by state we're going to see, I think more of those sorts of things happening to where brands are just going to have to come up with real solutions and not, not just, you know, the use gear tab.
Producer Dave
00:40:09.973 - 00:40:32.145
Yeah, I think you said something that's interesting though, in terms of the targeting aspect.
It really does mean though that if they reallocating part of that budget, reallocating those consumer profiles of who really you're going after, that's kind of that work that's going to have to happen just even in that digital space to make a meaningful difference.
Eoin Comerford
00:40:32.565 - 00:41:23.493
But even if, let's say, even if you do start to target used, part of the challenge with used is that it's, it's so hit or miss from a consumer's buying perspective that if you're taking just this brand only store look, it's just a really tough buying experience because you're going on there and you're like, I want a shell, I want a Gore Tex shell, I'm a size men's medium, whatever. If you're just going on the brand site to get that, the chance of getting exactly what you want pretty low. It's just not a great experience.
Whereas if you go to your local gear store, to a, to a, to a gear trade, whatever, suddenly you've got options, right? There's there, there will be a, a men's medium, Gore Tex shell out there and now you've got options and you can choose the Right. One, right.
So that's why, that's why this whole bespoke brand site thing just doesn't really work.
Colin True
00:41:23.589 - 00:41:44.367
Yeah, and I think that's, and again, like that to tease the thing that's coming a week from now. But like, that's something that Aaron mentioned as well. It's like, listen, we, this is what we do.
Like, you know, we, this is, you know, what our model is. We, we, we. And we don't, we don't bring in closeouts.
This is, you know, this is, you know, something we can do things that other folks can't because it's a big part of what gear trade is. So if you like this part of our conversation, come back next week to hear that as well. Sorry, Dave, did you have another follow up? Sorry.
Producer Dave
00:41:44.431 - 00:41:44.807
That's good.
Eoin Comerford
00:41:44.831 - 00:41:45.435
Okay.
Colin True
00:41:45.895 - 00:42:11.555
Well, I think just the last thing, you know, like we mentioned at the top, you know, it's the day after the election and, you know, kind of hit you up to see if you wanted to weigh in on this a little bit.
I mean, it's, obviously we're all, it's still kind of raw out there, but, you know, as we start looking at, at how the outdoor industry should be approaching a second Trump presidency, it's what figured want to give you the floor and you get your thoughts on what you think that should look like.
Eoin Comerford
00:42:12.295 - 00:44:31.203
Yeah, I mean, I just think back to my personal experience with the last Trump presidency, 2016. Well, first of all, from a sales perspective, the outdoor buyer was in mourning for two weeks at least afterwards.
And we, we at Moose Jaw saw a definite lack of sales. So I think that was, that was an interesting time.
But, you know, me personally, I mean, I would say I wallowed in it, you know, like, I was just all the indignation.
Like, I, I'm, I was never a, like a news program type person, but I was, you know, in the cnn, msnbc, just echo chamber, you know, just soaking up the negativity and, you know, ultimately sort of, you know, I don't know how many months in or like, you know, this is just not healthy. This is not, I'm not doing. Because at my heart, I am a pragmatist. Right? It's like control what you can control, right?
You know, figure out where you can make an impact. And I realized this is just not helping anybody.
So I think the industry kind of has to do sort of a similar thing, which is because one of the things with Trump is that he is great, great at the misdirect. Right? It's like you know, here's all these.
These crazy things like that maybe from a progressive perspective, he's saying, and, you know, it's way too easy just to get sucked into that conversation and just sucked into the indignation and reaction and all that stuff. It's like, guess what? That's not doing anything.
You're actually playing into the game when you just react and take the base and waste all your energy on that stuff.
We as an industry, if you're about conservation, if you're about, you know, inclusivity, we as an industry need to basically shut that out, ignore that, and get to doing the hard work right, which is.
And that hard work has never been needed more than really getting behind things such as sustainability at conservation, inclusivity, and working with the grassroots folks that are still there. They're getting up today. They've got the same work to do, maybe a slightly bigger hill to climb. They just need more help.
And so we just need to, you know, ignore the. Ignore the bullshit and keep on going.
Colin True
00:44:31.339 - 00:44:41.459
I think we could wrap it up there, man. That's a good advice. Hopefully everybody takes it. The consigliere of the Rock Fight, Owen Comerford, back again. Thanks for coming on, man.
Really appreciate it.
Producer Dave
00:44:41.507 - 00:44:42.027
Thank you.
Eoin Comerford
00:44:42.131 - 00:44:43.735
Sure, no problem. Thanks, guys.
Colin True
00:44:45.435 - 00:45:11.947
All right, that's the show for today. What are your thoughts on what you just heard? Send your feedback to myrockfightmail.com the Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight LLC.
Our producer today was David Karstad. Art direction provided by Sarah the avenging Angel Gensert. I'm Colin True.
Thanks for listening and once again we are going to have our guy, Chris Demx, take us out with the Rock Fight, Fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock Fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:45:12.091 - 00:46:10.575
Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock flight.
Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and pic bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
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