Can Trail Running Go Mainstream? Plus: Topo Surges & Back To School Predictions!
- colin7931
- Jun 30
- 46 min read
Today on the show the Monday boys, Producer Dave and outdoor industry insider Eoin Comerford, join Colin to talk about the following topics:
Back to school predictions! Reports are coming in that tariffs are impacting early back to school shopping. What does this mean for the second biggest shopping season of the year? (07:20)
In a recent interview, Topo Athletic founder Tony Post reveals the secrets behind the trail running footwear brands big 2024 growth. Is Topo poised to take the trail running shoe championship belt? (12:40)
Wolverine has launched a made in the USA work boot. Is this the beginning of a wave of loud domestically made product launches? (21:46)
After last weeks edition of TrailCon, an industry strategist posited that trail running is poised to go mainstream. For today's main topic the boys talk about what 'going mainstream' means to the outdoor industry in 2025 and what trail running being mainstream would actually look like. (27:33)
For The Parting Shot we saunter back over to pickleball corner as Colin takes umbrage with a recent survey. (52:47)
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Episode Transcript:
Colin True
00:00:00.160 - 00:00:52.790
Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True and today the Monday crew and I are taking a look at outdoor activities, the outdoor industry, and can it all go mainstream.
But before we get to that, be sure to come back to the Rock Fight this Wednesday to hear outdoor industry insider Eoin Comerford and I talk with Travis Campbell from Eagle Creek and a conversation that was recorded at Goa Connect a couple of weeks back. And that's it for this week. We're going to go on a reduced schedule for the holiday. Next Monday.
You'll get the last of the GOA Connect conversations where Owen Comerford and I have a chat with John Frederick at rab and then our normal Monday crew will be back on Monday, July 14th. Lastly, tomorrow, Tuesday, be sure to check out a new episode of Open Container with Doug Schnitzman, who takes no days off.
Follow and listen to Open Container on your favorite podcast app. Stick around. We'll be right back.
Chris DeMakes
00:00:52.950 - 00:00:56.550
And feel the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:01:00.460 - 00:05:12.020
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Chris DeMakes
00:05:12.180 - 00:05:21.220
Be a shop floor hero. Endeavor's here to stay. Shop Floor Hero Saloo is the way.
Colin True
00:05:24.590 - 00:05:35.630
All right, it's a Monday of a holiday Week I'm here with the Monday boys. Producer Dave Outdoor, industry insider, contiguarity of the rock fight.
Owen Comerford, who's working this week, who's taking time off, like, what's the plan for the holiday here, boys?
Eoin Comerford
00:05:35.790 - 00:05:57.370
Well, I'm working. Yeah, probably Monday through Wednesday. Wednesday night, though is the fireworks on the lake.
And we've been told that our spot is like the premium spot on the lake to watch the fireworks. They basically are going to go off right in front of the. So it's going to be. It's going to be pretty epic.
Colin True
00:05:58.570 - 00:06:02.330
Was that in the listing? Like, hey, you know, if you're wondering why 10% higher.
00:06:02.890 - 00:06:09.450
It was in the listing. And like, there was a picture in the listing of. This is the view of the fireworks from the lake. I'm not kidding.
Colin True
00:06:09.610 - 00:06:14.490
Was it worth that extra 7% or whatever? You know, like, well, we get the fireworks.
Eoin Comerford
00:06:14.650 - 00:06:24.730
I don't know. We'll have to see. You know, I tell you what, I'll give you the update post Holiday. Yeah, you know, did it, did it.
Colin True
00:06:24.730 - 00:06:27.610
Did it, you know, did it live up to the billing? Are you gonna go back to the.
Eoin Comerford
00:06:28.410 - 00:06:29.530
Exactly. Yes.
Colin True
00:06:29.530 - 00:06:33.210
You gotta pursue a refund from your. From the sellers. Like, hey, it really wasn't that good.
Producer Dave
00:06:33.210 - 00:06:35.610
Clawed back the fireworks. Claw back, I think.
Colin True
00:06:37.609 - 00:06:40.330
Plus all that plastic in the lake. Not cool, guys. What are we doing?
Producer Dave
00:06:40.890 - 00:06:41.610
It's paper.
Eoin Comerford
00:06:42.250 - 00:06:45.490
The big question is how is the dog going to respond to this?
Colin True
00:06:45.490 - 00:06:46.010
Oh, sure.
Eoin Comerford
00:06:46.170 - 00:06:59.370
Yeah. Now he's. So far he doesn't seem to be spooked like we are. Prior dog was like a basket case when it came to fireworks.
So hopefully he'll be, you know, just be fine. It'll be fair.
Colin True
00:06:59.370 - 00:07:17.050
So that's the only way I would want to experience the fireworks this year is what you described. It's like at your own home. You're going to be there anyway. You can enjoy it.
I'm not feeling very patriotic these days, so I'm not really, you know, like, putting a lot on my fourth of July calendar. But if I looked out my window and there were fireworks, I would happily sit there in a chair and have a beer and watch the fireworks for sure.
Eoin Comerford
00:07:17.440 - 00:07:20.400
Absolutely. There's nothing more American than beer and fireworks.
Colin True
00:07:20.720 - 00:08:08.710
All right, well, it's time for the Rock Fight Lightning Round. Lightning Round. And the Rock Fight Lightning round is presented by the ultimate comfort of Lem's footwear. Head to lemshoes.com to learn more.
So let's quickly touch on a few headlines that have come out recently. Before we get to the main story.
According to an article on SGB last week, a survey of early back to school shoppers are noticing higher prices, especially when it comes to clothing.
Like we've been saying since the conversation began back in April, the second half of the year is when we'd start seeing the impact of tariffs and back to school.
Back to school, of course, is an important part of the consumer calendar with many regarding it as the second largest consumer spending event of the year after the holidays. So what are our back to school predictions as we sit here? Is this a slow slide into a new reality?
You know, will consumer spending hit a brick wall as we head into the fall? What do you guys think?
Eoin Comerford
00:08:09.830 - 00:09:10.790
Typically, back to school is relatively resilient.
I think most parents tend to put their kids first and so they'll cut back on their own spending on apparel or whatever else before they'll cut back for their kids. The other thing is, the annoying thing about children is they tend to grow. And so year over year you have to can confirm. Yes, right.
Year over year you have to kind of buy them new shit. Right. And like when it comes to sports or whatever, you know, if they're playing soccer, they're going to need some new cleats. Right.
You know, and so I think it's unlikely we're going to see a dip in overall back to school sales for that very reason. But I, you know, it's probably going to be in the usual sort of plus 2%, ish, 2, 3%, you know, retail type numbers.
But the problem I think is that the reality is that at retail, prices are going to be going up more like 10%. And so that's going to put pressure on some categories.
Colin True
00:09:11.270 - 00:09:12.630
Yeah. Dave, is this an opportunity?
Producer Dave
00:09:12.630 - 00:09:13.950
Okay, go ahead, ask your question.
Colin True
00:09:13.950 - 00:09:18.710
Well, I was gonna ask you if this is an opportunity for us to come out with the rock fight, trapper keeper, you know, kind of a line.
Producer Dave
00:09:18.710 - 00:09:22.710
Are you kidding? I would use that in my daily life right now.
Eoin Comerford
00:09:23.430 - 00:09:26.950
Scratch and sniff stuff, all of that.
Producer Dave
00:09:27.510 - 00:09:28.550
What they can do today.
Colin True
00:09:28.550 - 00:09:31.430
Smells like rock, smells like fight.
Producer Dave
00:09:31.910 - 00:10:21.630
Put them together. I was gonna say. I totally agree in the resilience part. It does seem to be a little more immune.
A couple things though, with the price, with that difference, are we going to see a dip based on fewer items in terms they would normally purchase during this time? Just kind of more of just a slight cutback, but still spending. But just like I said, the number of things you buy.
And then also I'm just curious as to where the secondhand resale amongst high school kids has impacted this. Is that tracked in a back to school kind of number or is that separate? Is it big enough to even influence the overall trend?
I just, it's just something that has been building over the last few years and has it taken hold on a big way?
Colin True
00:10:22.190 - 00:10:33.310
Just anecdotally my wife and I have already talked about separate of the tariff conversation. We have two kids entering high school this year and we're like we should go to secondhand shops for most of what they're gonna be looking for mostly.
Cause that's what they'll want to do anyway.
Eoin Comerford
00:10:34.110 - 00:11:15.980
Yeah, there was this same survey did point to some of, some of the.
Well, sorry, I guess it was, it wasn't in the SCDB article but it was a separate article around this issue of inflation going into back to school and a lot of parents are going to look to avoid the price hikes. And one of the top ways was actually secondhand.
The other way was just buying stuff on sale and there's always going to be stuff on sale and the third way was really going down in price.
So maybe you're not going to go for the super duper Adidas sports cleats, soccer cleats, you're going to move down to the nice ones, but not quite as crazy nice.
Producer Dave
00:11:16.620 - 00:11:17.060
Yeah.
Colin True
00:11:17.060 - 00:11:50.070
Do we think as we even look ahead towards the holidays, I mean is it possible that consumers almost either adapt to the higher prices or even is it not going to be so loud? Right. Where obviously we know it's going to impact small businesses, emerging brands or founder led brands.
We've talked a lot about here on the rock fight, but just in the marketplace. To your point, Owen, even in the holidays, I imagine parents are going to put their kids first.
The prices might be higher, but it's probably, I'm just wondering how noisy the tariff price increases might be once they actually kind of really come into play.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:50.310 - 00:12:34.660
I think most companies realize that the average consumer isn't really willing to take a huge hike. I tend to think 10% is kind of the top that you can get to.
And so companies are going to expect that if they're going to go above that, they're going to expect the demand elasticity to be such that they'll probably lose more in volume than they, you know, would make up with the price hike. So you know, it's, it's. Do you accept the mar.
Except, you know, lower margins or lower sales or do you accept the fact that they're going to probably price out of the top items and move and trade down, even potentially trade down into private brand, which would be obviously a challenge for, for folks in our industry.
Colin True
00:12:35.380 - 00:13:49.460
Right. Well, it's all coming. We'll have to see how this plays out. We'll keep an eye on that next story.
In an interview also with SGB this week, Topo Athletic founder Tony Post spoke about the large increase in distribution that the trail running and hiking footwear brand experienced in 2024. From Q1 to Q4, Topo showed a 43% increase in distribution, ending the year with a presence in over 1200 locations domestically, according to Post.
Some of that was an increase in big box. REI, for example, expanded the brand from 50 to all 190 doors and the brand launched into 50 fit to run and shields.
But mainly the brand is known for its presence in specialty dealers. So Topo is definitely, we've talked about them here on the show.
They've been up and coming an up and coming alternative to brands like Altra for a while now.
It seems like they're becoming a serious contender, especially when you look at those numbers, like what a, what a difference a year makes, you know, the biggest advantage I think being that DSW invested in the brand but then left Tony in charge of the brand.
So Owen, when you compare Topo situation to an Ultra or a Hoka who have to appease their sort of big owners, and that's not to say that Tony doesn't have to appease the people who are in the ownership position, but it does seem like he has a little more autonomy than maybe some of his competitors do. You know, is a brand like Topo poised to take a run at being the top dog?
Eoin Comerford
00:13:49.700 - 00:14:36.040
I think what you're seeing right now is the fact that they had room to grow, right. So they really had pretty narrow distribution, primarily in, as you said, specialty retail.
But now they're really growing into the space because they could grow from 50 doors to 190 doors at REI as an example, or they could move into a Shields. Whereas Ultra hoka, those guys, they're already in kind of almost everywhere where they want to be.
In some cases, potentially they're having those tough decisions like do we want to go, you know, if we're not in dicks, do we want to go into dicks? If we're in dicks, are we considering going into Academy or Hibbett or Big Five? Heaven forbid. So you know, I think shots at Big Five.
Producer Dave
00:14:36.040 - 00:14:36.520
Wow.
Eoin Comerford
00:14:36.680 - 00:15:01.830
Sorry.
But you know, so those are key distribution decisions that a lot of brands make as they're Looking at growth, Topo is benefiting from the fact that they have that room to grow. I think the next question is, can they, now that they're in all these doors, to what degree can they grow within that?
So if the, you know, because once you're in now, it's like, okay, we're in with one style or two styles. Can we get three or four?
Colin True
00:15:01.910 - 00:15:02.750
Yeah, yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:02.750 - 00:15:10.310
Which, you know, typically means, especially with. With footwear. I think what a lot of people don't understand is that footwear takes a lot of. Takes up a lot of space.
Colin True
00:15:10.470 - 00:15:10.790
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:10.790 - 00:15:22.150
Because you've got to have all of those sizes in the back room to support the assortment of the floor. And so it really, really. It is like, if you're going to add a shoe, you've got to take out a shoe to make it work.
Colin True
00:15:22.550 - 00:16:13.770
Yep. This is why I was even critical of lower and stuff when they introduced a trail running line.
It's not that the product couldn't be good or wasn't looking at loa saying, you don't know what you're doing. From footwear perspective, it's. Do you have the stomach for how long this is going to take? Because it's.
Even if you get one style on the wall, well, maybe it doesn't sell because you have one style on the wall and it's getting lost in everything else. Right. And so it's that you have to take the long view on that.
And, you know, folks like Low have shown they're going to commit to that, and it's probably. That's the next thing here. It's like, okay, great, now you're in these shops, how do you continue to kind of take them over?
Dave, do you think there's a.
From a brand perspective, would you be willing, if you're in a position of a Topo, to kind of just turn heel and like, leverage some of the, you know, the exclusivity things that Ultra has done with the Olympic nine plus and kind of like really lean into, like, the specialty of it all and kind of almost call out, like, hey, we. We are the alternative. We are the better option here because we play nice.
Producer Dave
00:16:15.770 - 00:17:34.420
Yeah. Nice, Nice, nice. Could work look. Yeah, I think so.
I think anytime you have an opportunity to take share and shelf from kind of established players who have also gone gotten big in their own way and their own rules, certainly gives you an opportunity. I think with Topo, there's a couple other things. You know, number one, the kind of shows the toe box is not a niche.
It's no Longer a category, it's a thing. And so as we talk about mainstream things, this is something, thank God, by the way. Right.
Something that we should look at that it's no longer just like I said, it's kind of section and two color matters. I mean, let's be clear.
One of the things that Topo has done is taken a page out of the HOKA book and they have added color and nuanced, you know, hues and gradients to their line. And that's like you said, that add skew. So you have to be able to handle that, you know, increase in your, in your inventory.
Like, you know, you were just saying you got to have the product to be able to expand with. But yeah, they've really upped their color game. And so I think that does kind of prime them to be able to take this, Take this opportunity.
But like you said, there is also the. Something to be said about being the outsider looking to get. Get in. An inside outsider, I should say.
Colin True
00:17:34.499 - 00:17:55.470
Oh, and as someone who has complained bitterly on this podcast about the amount of, you know, discounted emails you've received over, I think mostly, sorry backcountry to call you up, but I think you're, you're in the prime, the prime target there. And I agree with Owen on that, by the way. Like, okay, we get it. Your stuff's on sale.
One thing in the article is kind of calling out that Tony made sure he pointed out was that they've never run a sale on their website.
Eoin Comerford
00:17:56.190 - 00:18:04.270
Exactly. And that is, I mean, you talk about being friends with specialty. That is the way you become a friend with specialty.
Colin True
00:18:04.590 - 00:18:08.910
Hey, you want to buy my shoes? Just ignore that 50% off sale. You know, don't worry about that.
Eoin Comerford
00:18:09.070 - 00:18:52.400
Yeah, no, have a strong map policy and don't put your own stuff on sale. That's the way it actually used to be in the industry. When I joined, that was normal. That was normal. That was like, yeah, right.
It was like, yeah, that's kind of. That's the way we do things around here. No, and I think actually to a degree, the investment by Designer Brands Inc.
With dbi, or the parent of dsw, has really helped in that regard because what it's allowed them to do is a double their marketing. Double their marketing. Right. Which is, which is key. So that's driving more demand.
So again, you don't have to, you know, you don't have to use discounts to drive demand. You're using dollars to drive demand. Marketing dollars.
Producer Dave
00:18:52.480 - 00:18:52.800
That.
Eoin Comerford
00:18:52.800 - 00:19:39.050
Which helps everybody.
And secondly, also, it Provides you a lot more kind of, kind of coverage in terms of inventory so you can invest in inventory and you don't have to worry about immediately turning that inventory into cash just to be able to afford the next, the next season's production run.
And so I think it's all kind of come together and worked well to say, okay, we can do this thing and we can invest and we can build in a way that is going to be very attractive to specialty retail. I mean, obviously at the end of the day you still have to have great product that consumers want, otherwise it's all kind of bullshit.
But quite frankly, there's a lot of brands out there that do have good product that consumers would want that don't have that. And so they're in this vicious cycle of discount and inventory and cash FL flow, et cetera.
Colin True
00:19:39.050 - 00:20:08.030
Are we entering an age of good, like big owners?
I think it was just reflecting on our own, you and I at the Discovery Marketplace at Goa and talking to the guys from Sanuk and how fired up they were and we're like, oh yeah, lowly bought those guys. Like that's, that's strange. Like I think you're hearing about, you just seen the headline, oh, DSW acquiring a chunk of Topo.
You're probably in, your knee jerk reaction is like, oh man, like what's that going to be? Are they gonna be selling topos in DSW shops? Like that sucks.
And now it seems like Tony's sort of be giving his hands still on the wheel to kind of manage the brand that he founded.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:08.260 - 00:20:41.130
I think the difference there is that you're seeing companies like whether it's DSW or DBI or lowly and those folks, they're operators themselves, they're brands, they understand retail, they know kind of what somebody needs to really run a business and they're going to give them the tools to do that versus it being a purely financial transaction with private equity where it's just like, hey, we're investing this much here, we're loading you up with this much debt and we expect this cash flow boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And just, you know, and that's, it's just a different dynamic I think, right?
Colin True
00:20:41.130 - 00:20:44.810
The profitability becomes the focus versus the brand and the product and everything else.
Producer Dave
00:20:44.810 - 00:20:45.250
The building.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:45.410 - 00:21:42.070
I think the other interesting thing in this case in terms of what you call a good acquirer which came out of this deal was that it stipulated, according to this interview, that Tony actually got to call the shots as long as basically he was in charge. And it was profitable.
He called the shots relative to strategy, relative to pricing, relative to distribution, to the point that they're not sold in dsw. Even their closeouts bets aren't in dsw.
So I think that that's key and it's a good situation, I think, for a founder to look for, if they do get to that, to say, well, hey, you know what, maybe, you know, maybe I don't want to just take the highest price. Maybe I take the, take the one that's got the most upside. Especially if I'm still, you know, involved and still have an equity position.
Because I'm sure, you know, I think Tony still has 20, 20 some percent of the company. I'm sure that 20% looks a lot nicer today than maybe it did, you know, when, when they were acquired.
Colin True
00:21:42.070 - 00:21:45.830
43% increase in distribution. Yeah, probably. They're selling some more shoes.
Eoin Comerford
00:21:45.910 - 00:21:46.310
Right.
Colin True
00:21:46.710 - 00:22:18.120
All right, last story for the lightning round. According to an article in ciso, Wolverine is launching a domestically made boot.
The Workshop wedge will be designed and produced in America with both domestic and globally sourced materials. The $250 boot is now available. Actually it's available D2C on Wolverine's website.
Obviously the show the shoe was in development prior to our current tariff situation. Unless they made pulled that off in three months, not likely. But do you guys think this is the start of a louder domestic product launches?
I mean, I thought that was kind of an interesting piece of coverage on Wolverine by ciso.
Eoin Comerford
00:22:18.120 - 00:23:12.000
That's cool. And I would love to see more domestically produced footwear, apparel, et cetera. I just think at that price point it's a bit tough, right?
So 250 bucks, it may not sound like a lot, but basically the same boot, from what I can tell, which is their loader, 6 inch wedge is $130.
So you're looking at almost double just to have it made in the US which talks obviously a lot to the relative expense of US based manufacturing which we've talked about on this pod. So will there be people that will be willing to pay that premium for a US made product? Yeah, sure, probably.
Will it be a shit ton of people that will cause this whole avalanche of folks just to start producing boots in the US I don't think so unless we can really be more competitive in price.
Colin True
00:23:12.880 - 00:23:30.960
And you can see that. I think that's reflected in the design. Right. It's a pretty good looking basic boot, can be worn fashion wise, probably is relatively functional.
You can apply it a lot of different ways if you have some inventory Left over, you know, you're probably going to sell it eventually, that kind of thing. But double's a tough pill to swallow. Dave, what did you think about this one?
Producer Dave
00:23:30.960 - 00:24:39.000
Well, look, I think any trend moving towards domestic manufacturing of things that have kind of moved off is great.
I do like the story, but kind of to the point moving that kind of basic silhouette up that much in price, you're now actually competing with a fairly competitive market of domestic made high end boots, work boots, not just fashion. Right. So you're talking about, you know, Red Wings and Danners and things like that that are still of a scale but you know, they're good boots.
And so you're going to make sure so you're not, not, you're definitely just playing in a very crowded field. And that's not even the, the litany of boutique, you know, crafted things. Like I'm a big fan of, of Truman boots out of Eugene.
Of course, you know, small just, you know, and then of course, you know, the New England has a bunch and even keen, you know, expanding their manufacturing out of Portland into Kentucky to, to, to kind of give a bigger footprint of that. It's, it's not, it's a specialty item. But it's not going to be any easier selling that against all those competitors.
Colin True
00:24:39.640 - 00:24:50.440
You know what they should have done, and I thought to say this was on the table, but they should have bought the IP around the sundowner. If you're going to have an expensive domestically made boot, why not make it one that, you know, people are missing and wanting?
Producer Dave
00:24:50.760 - 00:24:51.800
I love that idea.
Colin True
00:24:52.680 - 00:25:06.340
Right? I mean otherwise to your point, it's like I get it, like I just said, like ah, look, this is a pretty basic boot. It's really good looking.
Some people will spend that much money on it. But your point, Dave? It's like a lot of other things that are out there.
Get something that y' all used to be able to get this boot, you can't get it anymore.
Producer Dave
00:25:06.340 - 00:25:09.460
Love that boot. It's unfortunate name but it's a great boot.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:09.620 - 00:25:23.980
I, I, I do think though that, that Dave brings up a great point which is, you know, as a consumer, would you, I mean it's a Wolverine boot, which is a fine brand, but it's not. You wouldn't think of it as like premium, premium brand if I forgot Wolverine.
Colin True
00:25:23.980 - 00:25:28.100
Made their own stuff, if I'm being honest. Like I was thinking of them as a parent company at this point. Sorry to interrupt you.
Producer Dave
00:25:28.100 - 00:25:28.420
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:28.580 - 00:26:04.860
No, they do. I mean, yeah, it's a good work boot. You know, sort of mid tier work boot brand.
But it's like, okay, for if I'm buying this as more of a fashion play and a red wing is roughly the same price, I'm probably gonna go with the red wing. I mean, it's a cooler brand, cooler story. Right.
And also people, when they see it, they know that it's made in the US Whereas this one, unless you, there's like a little, there's a little flag on there, which is cool. A little flag. But otherwise everyone's like, oh, okay, you got a nice, you got a pair of Wolverine boots. Okay, that's cool. So, right.
You know, yours, you know in your heart that it's made in the U.S. but maybe, you know, not everyone else.
Producer Dave
00:26:04.860 - 00:26:07.420
Their advertising will make sure, you know, don't worry.
Colin True
00:26:07.900 - 00:26:19.100
Okay, but it's only D2C2 to that point. I mean another missed opportunity to our point about like even like experiential marketing or getting creative about bringing things to market.
Like couldn't you have found like three doors to launch this in and made it a really cool, exclusive thing? Right.
Producer Dave
00:26:19.100 - 00:26:21.900
Maybe they are. Do we know? We don't know their plans necessarily.
Colin True
00:26:21.900 - 00:26:26.070
I mean according to the article, it said it's available on their website, so maybe they're going to do something else with it. So.
Producer Dave
00:26:26.070 - 00:26:27.430
Great. Good.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:27.990 - 00:26:28.430
All right.
Colin True
00:26:28.430 - 00:26:58.560
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Producer Dave
00:26:58.960 - 00:27:03.440
I was actually gonna say so, Colin, do those, do lems feature a more ergonomic toe box?
Colin True
00:27:04.880 - 00:27:05.800
Do they? I think so.
Producer Dave
00:27:05.800 - 00:27:07.840
I believe they do. Yes, I believe they do.
Colin True
00:27:07.840 - 00:27:15.120
There you go, the mainstream foot. Imagine that the shape of our feet are becoming mainstream crazy. Someone needs to tell Solomon.
Producer Dave
00:27:18.250 - 00:27:21.370
I just look at a pair of those and my feet hurt. It's true.
Colin True
00:27:21.530 - 00:29:20.930
Kyle Frost was posting about his new Solomons and I'm like, ah, just they're so cool looking, they look badass. But you put them on like I have a thin foot and I'm like, I feel like I'm getting squished here.
So today's main topic is presented by Oboz, the pride of Bozeman, Montana. Also the cupid to the outdoor world. And this past week in Tahoe, California, the second edition of trailcon was held.
Trailcon is a three day trail long, trail running focused festival that has industry and consumer elements. Think of it more as the trail running version of Sea Otter than maybe a trade show. On the surface this seems like a niche event.
But in a post on LinkedIn, Stephen Holmberg, who is an outdoor industry industry strategist, posted some thoughts from the event. One of them being, quote, the sport of trail running is poised to go mainstream, especially with media attention.
And I had the chance to have a quick call with Stephen after he posted that we should actually probably have him on the show in the future and asked him what he meant by saying trail running is poised to go mainstream and he believes the sport is gaining enough momentum that we'll start to see it show up in places kind of like the Ironman Kona did back in the day when it was on NBC or maybe the coverage we see for Olympic sports. Basically mainstream media dipping their toes into the trail running waters, so to speak.
So I am just fascinated by this persistent idea of outdoor activities becoming mainstream pursuits.
I think this sort of plays into our conversation from last week about the the core versus the casuals, because taking a niche sport and saying it has gone mainstream is something that I've been hearing people say since like the mid-1990s.
And you can go back even way before then to find examples of this because it positions these sports as a gateway for folks who maybe dabble to then also become more hardcore at some point. So I want to talk with you guys today about the evolution of these attempts of going mainstream and what it means for the industry.
But let's start by defining what just mainstream is or kind of like level setting, especially as it pertains to outdoor brands or activities.
Because when I hear the word mainstream, I presume people are talking about, about something niche and not just bringing it to the masses, but the masses also adopting it. But that's not really like what Stephen meant. So kind of do you guys agree with that assessment? You know what, what, what is mainstream?
Eoin Comerford
00:29:20.930 - 00:29:31.170
To me, mainstream means that like it's, it's. So it's widely distributed. Again, I'm the prospect retail guy. That's the way my brain works. And so if it's.
Colin True
00:29:31.170 - 00:29:32.290
How do I put this in a store?
Eoin Comerford
00:29:32.290 - 00:29:50.300
Yeah, yeah. How do you sell it? Sell, sell. But so is there an assortment that's available outside of specialty? Is it in Dick's, Is it in Academy?
That to me is like a mainstream product versus a niche product.
Colin True
00:29:50.700 - 00:29:52.020
Dave, when you hear mainstream, what do you think?
Producer Dave
00:29:52.020 - 00:30:45.950
Yeah, I'll even maybe back up and get even wider. I mean, Colin Owen took it at the product level. That's part of it, the big box.
But you're talking about primetime television, you're talking about top, top 40 radio or music, you're talking about fashion trends. You know that things that are known by the most amount of people, by the deepest amount of people, big and wide, right? Is a mainstream.
Now mainstream can also be just wide, right? It doesn't have to be known like. So if you take a retailer aspect, you know, Walmart is deep and wide as a known mainstream entity.
Urban Outfitters, that's probably just wide. A lot of people know about it, a mainstream level, but not everybody knows about it.
Or, you know, the super bowl is clearly an event that is deep and wide, but the trail running world Championships probably not deep and wide, right?
Colin True
00:30:45.950 - 00:31:06.170
Well, and that's an interesting thing, right? I mean like the probably the left, the leftover from the monoculture is the Super Bowl.
It's like the only thing that everyone still does anymore at the same time at any given point. And like this past year, actually there was new record viewership for the super bowl.
And you could actually argue that was more because of Kendrick than it was the game. So, you know, the Oscars that peaked.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:06.170 - 00:31:20.410
In 1990, I wouldn't argue that.
But what I would say is that the reason why football, and the super bowl in particular is mainstream is because football realizes that it's entertainment. It's not a sport. Right? I love football, believe me, Huge fan.
Colin True
00:31:20.890 - 00:31:27.050
But you know, you just lost your Lions fan card. You're not allowed to root for them any. Dan Campbell's gonna come over later and punch you in the face.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:28.010 - 00:31:29.290
They're not actually.
Colin True
00:31:30.250 - 00:31:31.170
Please videotape it.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:31.170 - 00:32:01.110
Please, Dan, please. I will live off that story forever.
But no, but yeah, to me, a mainstream sport is one where at least one in 10 people could name just one athlete that takes part in that sport. Tell me when exactly in the next decade someone is going to know a trail running athlete well, and this is.
Colin True
00:32:01.110 - 00:33:24.100
Why I'm glad I got the chance to talk to Steven, because that's not what he was in for. And that was what I was worried he was mentioning. He's like, oh, everybody's gonna know what trail running is. I'm like, dude, I Run ultramarathons.
And I don't want to watch a trail running race. Like, you know, I'd be your core demographic. And I'm like, I'm out on that. I think his point was it's. It's evolving. And I.
And also I think this is kind of important to why we define what mainstream is. Because mainstream is so bifurcated now. Like, there's all. There's a niche.
Like this podcast exists to the level that it does because we have identified a niche audience who is interested in the things that we're talking about. Wouldn't have happened 20, 30 years ago because I think it's just so much more broad.
So there's probably room for a lot more for mainstream to be determined, to be defined in a lot of different ways. I mean, so when you kind of look at beyond the outdoors, like, what does it mean to be mainstream in 2025? Like, that's kind of. I was getting at.
It's like, well, you know, that's really like the super bowl and then everything else. Right. I mean, and even tv. I looked this up. The TV episode got the most viewers ever.
It was the mash finale in 1983 when 100 million people watched that. Think about 100 million people watching an episode of television in 2024. It was squid Game and not the show. Not like an episode.
The whole show got 27 million viewers. So it's just such a different world that we're operating in.
So I do think it opens up the opportunity for something like trail running to, you know, get a little bit, you know.
Producer Dave
00:33:24.900 - 00:33:26.180
Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Owen.
Eoin Comerford
00:33:26.180 - 00:33:27.220
No, you go ahead, Dad.
Producer Dave
00:33:27.300 - 00:33:50.260
I was going to say, I think you're talking about the monoculture, and I don't think that's necessarily synonymous with the mainstream. Right. I think monoculture is definitely a period of time that no longer exists in that.
But mainstream is just this idea of being aware of these things. Like, I don't even think you need to know a football player to be mainstream. Football being mainstream, you know that football exists.
Colin True
00:33:50.900 - 00:33:53.900
That's already general awareness. Trail running. Yeah.
Producer Dave
00:33:53.900 - 00:33:58.820
People don't know that it exists. Right, right. That it's even a thing. Right.
Colin True
00:33:58.900 - 00:33:59.460
It's true.
Producer Dave
00:33:59.460 - 00:34:44.079
Right. Like I said, I like to hike. I'm a slow motion trail runner. Right. In that definition.
But, but, but also too mainstream is a sensibility that you want to be connected to those things that everyone else are connected to. Right. And so it's a sensibility. Right. And so I think that if you're looking at both an event and a taste and a. Now you start to fractionalize.
So one of the sensibilities, Colin, that is now mainstream is the idea of niche cultures. That is a mainstream thought. It doesn't mean I know you exist.
But because of the Internet specifically and social media, we now acknowledge on a mainstream level that niches exist and are important even if I don't participate in all of them.
Colin True
00:34:44.159 - 00:34:50.559
And it allows things for trail con to happen and for all of these trail running enthusiasts to come together and celebrate this thing that they love.
Producer Dave
00:34:50.559 - 00:36:07.850
And what he's talking about is the concept of trail, or excuse me, trail trend diffusion, right? When a subculture becomes a niche, when it becomes a mainstream and obsequious, right? That's that process as we, that we move through.
And so I think his contention is that trail running is ripe for trail or for trend diffusion to happen. To bring it up now, I'm not sure I totally. I love trail running. I love the vibe of the sport. I love where it comes from.
Not sure that you could say it's similar to, say, skateboarding, right? Skateboarding went from a niche and subculture in the 70s to a niche into mainstream into the 90s, you know, and there are other examples.
I mean, oh my gosh, hip hop went through it, surf went through it, esports just went through it in that same kind of idea. So I'm not sure it's in that same where it's going to necessarily influence trend and vibe and culture as it moves up.
But I think a spiking of visibility because it has shared kind of more like.
Well, it's actually could be part of the health and wellness kind of thing, but it just has some shared value sensibilities that we're now appreciating in mainstream culture. So it might be able to be lifted up and given a little bit more prominence, but I would still hesitate to call it any form of mainstream.
Colin True
00:36:08.410 - 00:37:26.630
Well, and this is why I think this is a really fascinating topic because this has been going on for a long time, right? Look at like surf culture, the 60s and ski culture in the 70s, right? There were little mainstream offshoots that kind of found their way.
And again, this might be more tapping into the monoculture of it all.
But think about like an Ocean Pacific trend that emerged out of surf culture where people in the middle of the country had to have their OP T shirt in like 1982 or whatever it was. And that's sort of, you know, surfing becoming mainstream at a moment, right?
And kind of having that and kind of taking hold of sort of what, whatever surfing would be, however, be looked at by a lot of folks who maybe weren't going to go get a surfboard and go surfing. You know, I think in the 1990s, outdoors became kind of counterculture, right? It became like this was this sort of brash thing.
This is where action sports, but the outdoor like kayaking and mountain biking being the MTV sports generation, our generation effectively of like how people were engaging with these sports and then how was that leveraged at all sorts of level, levels of culture, whether it was in movies or TV. And you know, Beverly Hills 90210 now has like, you know, a guy rollerblading on it because like that's badass.
And that's what's happening in sort of this side of the outdoor world.
And I think it's just the way to kind of bring these activities in and try to make them relevant to the broader society I think is absolutely fascinating.
And it has to be sort of be taken into consideration when you about what brands are going to do or the products they're going to make or how they're going to try and engage with consumers.
Producer Dave
00:37:26.630 - 00:37:30.990
Except that rollerblading was never badass. It was the pick. It was the pickleball of the 90s.
Colin True
00:37:31.870 - 00:37:36.990
How dare you. I was a double ISA certified inline skate instructor, my friend.
Producer Dave
00:37:36.990 - 00:37:38.230
Notice you didn't say you were a.
Colin True
00:37:38.230 - 00:37:43.150
Certified rollerblader because that's a brand, not an activity.
Producer Dave
00:37:43.150 - 00:37:43.630
I see.
Colin True
00:37:44.110 - 00:37:45.390
Inline skating is the activity.
Producer Dave
00:37:45.390 - 00:37:48.110
But 90210 they were rollerblading.
Colin True
00:37:48.590 - 00:38:00.570
Well, rollerblading had its moment, all right. It was like a very short, small speckled moment, but it was, it did.
There was like an 18 month window where rollerblading was cool and then it wasn't anymore.
Eoin Comerford
00:38:03.610 - 00:38:28.070
Bringing it back to the product lens here for a second, you know, the way I look at mainstream is, let's take for example the sup, right? So Sup Santa paddle boarding was very much a niche, you know, for a long time.
Then it became a more of a premium play where, you know, if you're going to get into it, it was, you know, very much you couldn't touch.
Colin True
00:38:28.070 - 00:38:30.950
They were like surfboards on steroids and everything.
Eoin Comerford
00:38:31.110 - 00:39:18.930
You couldn't touch one for under a thousand dollars. Right.
You know, and so, and then it went mainstream and suddenly you had all kinds of people from all over the world making, you know, making sups at some, in some cases, ridiculous prices. A couple hundred bucks and you get, you see people all over the place.
You know, on Every lake and river and seafront, there's people out there who are not enthusiasts. They don't consider themselves part of some subcl. They're just, yeah, let's do this. So, you know, is.
Is the same thing going to happen in trail running? Let's say where really basically every footwear brand on the planet at every level, you know, is.
Are we going to see a trail, you know, trail specialty trail runners in Walmart, in Target, you know, I don't think so. But, you know, is that kind of where we're going?
Colin True
00:39:20.210 - 00:40:22.080
Well, I think that's interesting. This is where trail running becomes interesting to this conversation. Right. Because.
And Steven and I spoke about this when we chat on the phone the other day and maybe there are numbers to support this, but I doubt there are very many people who just start trail running. You're either a runner, you're probably road running and then you, oh, I'm gonna try something different and you end up running trails.
Or like my path to there was more from hiking like I was already hiking and you know, going on hikes. And then you're like, oh, I wanna try this as well. But it's sort of leading.
But trail running is easily maybe the coolest of the three things, like the most aspirational of sort of those of that little pyramid that it forms. Right. And so, so I could see kind of like that. Remember when NBC had the Ironman competition on?
I could see like, well, you know, maybe like somebody not NBC, but like somebody could tap into. Hey, Western states is happening. It's this iconic thing.
It's this crazy event where people run 100 miles and you know, does it show up in sort of mainstream outlets to achieve kind of like. Dave, what you're describing.
The more just kind of cultural awareness of this thing without it really even resulting in that many more people trailing running.
Producer Dave
00:40:22.800 - 00:40:45.800
Yeah. I think probably it's most direct line to cult mainstreamization is maybe the fashion influence of the aesthetic. Right. That, that it's just as.
Just as we go from. Running is always kind of. I always consider in talking to sports brands, running is the skeleton, if you will, of the athletic world.
It's a basis that everything is built off of.
Colin True
00:40:45.800 - 00:40:46.080
Yeah.
Producer Dave
00:40:46.080 - 00:40:47.600
Everyone and it's always.
Colin True
00:40:47.680 - 00:40:49.120
Or wears running shoes at least.
Producer Dave
00:40:49.120 - 00:41:02.230
And it's always been like running brands created could easily more easily move into other athletic categories where other brands that started in other athletic categories tended to have a tough time to move into run. Right. Because of its specialty nature.
Colin True
00:41:02.230 - 00:41:05.670
So it's like if LA gear in the 90s started making running shoes. We were like, what do you mean?
Producer Dave
00:41:05.910 - 00:41:19.710
And Skechers actually, you bring that up the kind of the heir apparent of LA gear. They've actually done a reverse current job of moving into run credibly.
I think there was definitely a lot of skepticism that, yeah, they sponsored MEP.
Colin True
00:41:19.710 - 00:41:21.230
And a bunch of big runners.
Producer Dave
00:41:21.230 - 00:41:28.150
They spent a lot of money to do it. But I do believe that they did crack that. And so. So, yeah, again, go ahead.
Eoin Comerford
00:41:28.150 - 00:41:38.790
If I could translate for saying, are you saying that basically we'll know that it's sort of gone mainstream when people are wearing Lone Peaks to the bar to try to, you know, pick up the opposite?
Producer Dave
00:41:38.790 - 00:42:21.100
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Without a doubt, Without a doubt. And when it becomes alongside, you know, in terms of, you look at kind of youth.
Youth culture and street eyewear, they start to, you know, again, sneakers are such a part of street wear. So there's already trail styles that have. Have found their way to customization and to, you know, kind of small drop kind of world.
But when you see more and more of that, you know, bigger lugs, you know, light hikery kind of thing, and I would imagine you would see other outdoorsy influences going on alongside of that. So, yeah, that's what I think. It's possibility as a mainstream is really more of a fashion trend as a. As a place for the running trend to go. Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:42:21.900 - 00:42:30.820
Yeah, I could see that from an aesthetic perspective, basically saying, you know, not just, I'm a fake runner, I'm a fake trail runner is even, Even cooler.
Producer Dave
00:42:30.820 - 00:42:54.680
And look at their big cushy shoes. It's just like the running shoe. It's kind of obvious why that became a trend that hasn't really let up. Right.
It really became part of just casual culture, kind of like denim or fleece. Like, it's just, it's. It's lost its original meaning of being a.
I mean, it still has it, but for most people, running shoe is a comfortable shoe, full stop.
Colin True
00:42:54.680 - 00:43:08.520
Yeah.
It's kind of bums me out that we didn't bring up running shoes at our conversation last week when we were talking about the kind of the core versus casual nature. There's no better example than whatever. What's the ridiculous number of like 83% of running shoes sold? Never. Are running people wearing them around?
Producer Dave
00:43:08.600 - 00:43:16.120
That number is for every sports shoe. I mean, except for climbing. You know what I mean? Like, look at the basketball shoe. You know, same kind of.
Colin True
00:43:16.200 - 00:43:20.360
Except climbing shoes. That's a good. Yeah, I'm just wearing these around soccer.
Producer Dave
00:43:20.600 - 00:43:22.410
That's right. They turn into claws.
Colin True
00:43:22.970 - 00:43:23.930
Cleats. Cleats.
Producer Dave
00:43:24.570 - 00:43:42.890
Well, but you know what, though? There was a time actually I'll date my back to the 90s where kids were wearing cleated shoes on the street. And in fact, I know Adidas did.
They did some filing down of some of their classic styles to make them a little more street friendly. But you know, fashion, Fashion, this is the.
Colin True
00:43:42.890 - 00:43:49.930
That people need to realize when they think this industry is about the core. It's like, no, like, oh, we could get people just to buy cleats and wear them.
Producer Dave
00:43:49.930 - 00:43:53.230
Let's file them down. That's right. You'll dig them.
Eoin Comerford
00:43:53.230 - 00:43:57.710
They need to make the lone peak nine minus, which is the mainstream version.
Producer Dave
00:43:57.870 - 00:43:58.190
Right.
Colin True
00:43:58.190 - 00:44:29.570
Dave, you need to get on that image actually for the newsletter, I think the nine minus. Introducing the lone nine minus. And it's a pair of five fingers. And that's what. It's just a pair of slippers, but five fingers. Another good example.
I mean, I was working in a retailer, I did a quick stint at City Sports, and there were people coming in and buying five fingers to just. They had every color, every new release. Like, oh, the bikilas are coming out. I got to get those. And like, like these are.
Was in this in downtown Boston and dudes with puffy coats on and big baggy jeans and are wearing five fingers.
Eoin Comerford
00:44:29.570 - 00:44:30.010
And that's not.
Producer Dave
00:44:30.010 - 00:44:36.610
Yeah, that's not necessarily mainstreamization. That's more of a subculture dropping into a niche or rising up into a niche.
Colin True
00:44:36.610 - 00:44:37.410
But it's a trend.
Producer Dave
00:44:37.410 - 00:45:00.900
It's absolutely a trend. And those are what get pulled further. But some things are going to stop at the niche level. They move from main street or from subculture to niche.
That's a good example of something like, I don't think it ever really had had mainstream potential. But you know what? Niche businesses are pretty darn good and they can be fairly durable. They don't have to just be trend up and down.
They can kind of rise and create gravity and hold themselves for sure.
Eoin Comerford
00:45:01.620 - 00:45:03.940
If they create sort of a tribal signal.
Producer Dave
00:45:04.020 - 00:45:04.420
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:45:04.420 - 00:45:07.020
About something you want to be part of, then it can work.
Producer Dave
00:45:07.020 - 00:45:08.420
That's right. That's right.
Colin True
00:45:08.660 - 00:45:52.980
Well, and this is where we have to bring it back probably to the industry conversation about why we want to talk about in this podcast. Right. Because there is. There are product decisions to be made from a design and aesthetic point of view and then there's retail decisions to be made.
To your point, Owen, we opened the conversation talking about what we're carrying at the stores.
And you put somebody who knows nothing about it and put a pair of five fingers in front of them and say, hey, do you think this is gonna be the next hot shoe at a sporting goods store? And they're like, you're crazy. No, of course not. But it did. And it went from zero to $100 million in like 18 months.
And then it fell off just as hard.
But I mean, maybe not the best example, but that these sort of mainstream, you know, these products, these categories could be coming more mainstream. It kind of was led to the industry becoming the size that it is.
Eoin Comerford
00:45:53.860 - 00:45:54.420
Totally.
Colin True
00:45:54.420 - 00:46:06.900
It was climbing, right?
It was outdoor, like, you know, it was the, the alpinist kind of vibe in the 90s that became the puffy coats of the New York City and everything else. That is what. That is why we are sitting here by talking about this shit on a podcast, right?
Eoin Comerford
00:46:07.620 - 00:46:31.300
I mean, it really gets, gets back to what we said last year, last year, last week. Do brands want to become mainstream? I think it depends on the brand. Some of them would say, no, we're just about the core.
But I would say a lot of brands would be like, yeah, it wouldn't kill us if somebody decided that our latest style of shoe or pant or whatever was the cool thing for people who maybe don't do anything to do with the outdoors.
Colin True
00:46:31.620 - 00:46:51.540
Well, I think it's created a world for people, to be honest about that. So we talked to Bill Amos at Northwest Alpine. He doesn't want to be. Become the. He wants to be the core. Right.
He wants his brand to be small stuff, made in the USA for people who go outside and hike and climb and do outdoorsy stuff. And now that niche audience could probably support a. Can support a brand like that if somebody else, I don't know, maybe.
Eoin Comerford
00:46:52.100 - 00:46:56.660
Interesting thing though is the louder that he squawks about that.
Colin True
00:46:56.820 - 00:46:58.020
Am I gonna have to cut this out?
Eoin Comerford
00:46:58.020 - 00:47:06.000
No, no, no. The louder he squawks about being only for the core, the more he will appeal to the non core core. You follow me?
Colin True
00:47:06.080 - 00:47:14.240
And that's my point, right? It's like it's all marketing at the end of the day, even if Bill is sincere, like, and he is sincere.
Eoin Comerford
00:47:14.800 - 00:47:15.640
Right, right.
Colin True
00:47:15.640 - 00:47:27.040
I mean, it's like the North Face isn't hardcore anymore. It's like you can wear their stuff anywhere and, and it'll work just as well. Like, but. And they, and they don't say a word about.
They just put it out there and then go and collaborate with, you know, Kim Kardashian.
Producer Dave
00:47:27.440 - 00:47:39.030
They do Say a word about it. And they also pay really, really outdoorsy people to do their thing outdoors. Like, it's like that's about as core as you can get, frankly. Right.
I mean, that's a good point.
Colin True
00:47:39.030 - 00:47:41.030
Alex Honnold's still the North Face athlete.
Producer Dave
00:47:41.510 - 00:47:47.750
And their reach, which goes beyond things that make us comfortable inside the core, a la Kardashian.
Colin True
00:47:48.710 - 00:47:59.400
And this is why I think the outdoor industry is interesting, because it is like talking about sports or anything else where you have these just passionate opinions and the way that it is and who's right and that this is better than that. And this is why, you know, this podcast exists.
Producer Dave
00:47:59.400 - 00:48:23.500
Yeah. I think we're talking about cultural influence versus just kind of core product creation. Right. And can you. Can you rise to cultural influence?
I think that's maybe what even what some of these brands would aspire to versus true mainstreamization, which then brings you into that. Where is it sold? How much are you making, you know, that kind of conversations where subculture into influence. That's where you want to be.
Colin True
00:48:24.850 - 00:48:38.690
Well, we should have Stephen come on. I thought I enjoyed my conversation with him and I've heard him on a few other podcasts and he does a great job.
So maybe we'll find some topics for him to weigh in on with us. I thought that was really great. Anything you guys feel like we missed or didn't touch on. That was a really fun.
Producer Dave
00:48:38.770 - 00:49:23.600
No. I liked where last you started taking to the concept of commercialization. And industry has to think ahead of the curve.
And so it's really hard to like when faced with a true disruptive product or something that has the potential to go from a cult subculture in. It's hard to see that.
And so it's the brands and the retailers that are able to pivot quickly and adopt that because subcultures aren't playing on a commercial calendar. They're just being themselves. Right. It's the. It's the larger brands and businesses that are reaching down and pulling those up.
And so you have to be able to have an ecosystem that can support this when something starts to catch. Be able to move and adopt it, produce it, you know, get it to market, just a much different thing. So there's a lot of.
Eoin Comerford
00:49:23.830 - 00:49:24.070
Of.
Producer Dave
00:49:24.230 - 00:49:33.190
There's a lot of points along the way that could fail in the adoption of a subcultural trend or product and creating it into a mainstream, mainstream item.
Colin True
00:49:33.190 - 00:49:52.240
Well, and. And it. And it is kind of to make another sports analogy, right. Like the seasons are long. Right. So we have all this Time.
The Monday morning Quarterback. Quarterback on what worked and what didn't work.
But at some point a brand had to take a shot at something and then someone like Owen, sitting at, you know, the head of Moose Shaw had to say, okay, we'll take a shot at this and there's going to be wins and losses along the way.
Producer Dave
00:49:52.320 - 00:50:04.120
And to that I will just even take the other side. You said it seasons long, not only on the back end trends and these niches move slower than we think they do.
We talk about fads being really fast and you.
Colin True
00:50:04.120 - 00:50:05.120
Except five fingers.
Producer Dave
00:50:05.280 - 00:50:20.930
Right, well, well, that one, yeah. Because you know when I say even fast, like can other brands get on board and emulate it and participate in it?
I don't know if anybody really wanted to get on board with that one. It was just like, no, no, that's all yours. You got that. That you could got your toes.
Eoin Comerford
00:50:20.930 - 00:50:22.890
Topo did they did they did.
Producer Dave
00:50:22.890 - 00:50:27.290
That's exactly where they started. And look where they look where they've come look.
Colin True
00:50:28.250 - 00:50:30.970
Was that, was that right?
Producer Dave
00:50:32.010 - 00:50:55.200
Just my point is that too, that when we get into these, we get hyper fixated on fat and being, you know, staying up to, to, to kind of up to fashion that way. You do tend to have a little bit more time to see what the market's doing, where things are going to go and then make your move.
I mean, it's the classic Apple, Apple kind of view of technology. Right. They just kind of wait to see what shakes out, what's going to hold and then go and improve on it. So.
Colin True
00:50:55.520 - 00:51:16.250
All right. Today's episode of the Rock Fight was presented by Oboz, who wants to take their share that wants to share their love of hiking.
And we want to help them by uncovering all the different reasons we love to take the long walk, including the following.
Snacks taste better at elevation, which is a shame for Owen because he has no elevation around him so he doesn't know how good snacks could actually take.
Eoin Comerford
00:51:16.810 - 00:51:19.570
I've been up to elevation before, just not local.
Colin True
00:51:19.570 - 00:51:20.410
Do they taste better?
Eoin Comerford
00:51:21.770 - 00:51:23.050
Snacks always taste good.
Producer Dave
00:51:24.170 - 00:51:29.210
I think we could revise that. That snacks tastes better at elevation and at the waterline.
Colin True
00:51:30.010 - 00:51:33.450
Oh, there we go. While you're watching the fireworks or just.
Producer Dave
00:51:34.010 - 00:51:35.370
Or just hiking on through.
Colin True
00:51:37.770 - 00:51:41.510
Number two because squirrel. Squirrels don't spread gossip. Dave, is that true?
Producer Dave
00:51:41.510 - 00:51:52.510
No, that is not true. I can absolutely attest. We have so many different squirrels running around our place and all they do is talk shit about the cats.
I can tell you, it's just, it's constant.
Colin True
00:51:52.670 - 00:52:47.150
You were way too prepared for this. Number three, you could finally wear that bandana you bought in 2014. I think this one's more for me. I definitely. I love a bandana I was getting.
It's like, you know, you're shopping for something, you're like, like a pack of three pack of bandanas. Like, I'll grab that and then, you know, you know, when am I going to use this? I'm probably never going to use this, but.
Except maybe you go for that hike, you could use it. Number four. Hiking means the catabatic LT, the katabatic has quickly become an OBO's favorite.
And the LT takes the catabatic collection to a whole new level. With a lighter package and additional environmentally friendly materials.
From fast packing to day hiking, the Katabatic LT is your new shoe of choice and this hiking appreciation moment brought to you by oboz of Bozeman, Montana, certified B Corp.
6 million tree planter and inhabitant of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, Oboes is the maker of premium quality footwear for the trail and the cupid to the outdoor world. Oboz love hiking.
Chris DeMakes
00:52:48.270 - 00:52:50.430
It's time for a party shot.
Colin True
00:52:52.110 - 00:52:54.750
All right, we're gonna head over to Pickleball corner for the parting shot.
Eoin Comerford
00:52:54.910 - 00:52:55.310
All right.
Colin True
00:52:55.310 - 00:54:00.360
We've had some fun at pickleball's expense pretty much ever since the show has started. But in an article on sgp, Atlanta based Pickleball Flash LLC is promoting a national survey they ran recently that says 70% of U.S.
adults ages 18 to 65, 70% identified themselves as either eager to learn or currently learning to play pickleball. 12% said they are avid players, and only 18% surveyed said they had no interest in learning the sport. 70%.
Okay, so is this proof that big Pickleball is now trying to somehow rule our lives? And I say yes. There is no way.
That is not a doctored number or the questions that were asked that survey were leading were worded in a way that made it nearly impossible for them to not arrive at a big number.
And given that pickleball is the Crocs of sports, I'm worried that we end up in the same place that we have with Crocs, where pickleball just wears us down over time. And 20 years from now, everyone's playing pickleball. No one really likes it, but it just feels comfortable. So we do it.
So, you know, we may have public lands to defend, a corrupt government to worry about, but I think this is a sign that we need to take the pickleball threat seriously. Pickleball propaganda is real.
Eoin Comerford
00:54:00.510 - 00:54:00.750
Real.
Colin True
00:54:00.910 - 00:54:03.950
And we can't let them win. That's my parting shot.
Eoin Comerford
00:54:04.110 - 00:54:06.990
The 18 year olds are excited about pickleball. I don't see that.
Colin True
00:54:07.070 - 00:54:10.350
I think, I mean, I'm being silly, but it seems a little weird.
Producer Dave
00:54:10.510 - 00:54:22.590
I think this is just proof that our polling industry is corrupt as well. And there's just no way in the world. No way in the world was it.
Colin True
00:54:22.590 - 00:54:27.150
The CEO of pickleball Flash's household. Like, I've got a few people in here like, what do you guys think?
Producer Dave
00:54:27.470 - 00:54:29.660
I haven't year old.
Eoin Comerford
00:54:30.060 - 00:54:35.300
Your average college kid probably thinks pickleball is a drinking game. I mean, what? What?
Colin True
00:54:35.300 - 00:54:44.620
Yeah, that might actually improve pickleball. You might be onto something there, Owen. Okay, but then kids don't drink anymore, so it's gonna be just for us.
Eoin Comerford
00:54:44.620 - 00:54:45.660
True. Maybe.
Producer Dave
00:54:46.780 - 00:54:47.260
Wow.
Colin True
00:54:49.020 - 00:55:19.860
All right, that's the show. We want your emails. Send them to myrockfight gmail.com. you'll hear me in the comments coming weeks.
But you will not hear Owen and Dave at least together on this show until Monday the 14th. So pine away for this crew. The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight llc.
Today's episode was produced by producer David Karstad, art direction provided by that Sarah Gensert. And for Owen Comerford, I'm Colin Truth. Thanks for listening. Here to take us out like he always does.
It's Kristen makes with the Rock Fight Fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
Producer Dave
00:55:19.860 - 00:55:20.340
Boom.
Chris DeMakes
00:55:20.340 - 00:56:15.930
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Roc. Welcome to the Rock fight Where we speak our truth. Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is, this is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight.
Rock fight. Welcome to the Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock flight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Colin True
00:56:18.410 - 00:56:19.210
Rock fight.
Producer Dave
00:56:19.690 - 00:56:20.970
Rock fight.
