Forming Our Values Through Our Experiences

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Today Doug opens the container with Ian Yolles.

Doug begins the show by invoking the spirit of Henry David Thoreau whose philosophical tenets epitomized the need for individuals to reclaim their connection to nature. Doug also reflects on our experiences held in the wilderness and how they underscore the significant growth of resilience, and introspection.

He is then joined by Ian Yolles who has worn many hats in the outdoor industry and community. Ian is one of the authors of the recently released book, Carry the Flame: The Remarkable Story of the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School. Through over fifty personal stories from alumni, staff, and founders, the book captures the spirit of the school’s enduring legacy.

Together Doug and Ian discuss wilderness not only as a physical space but as a vital component of our humanity.

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Episode Transcript:

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:00:00.240 - 00:07:10.830

Hey everyone.

Before we get started today, I want to thank you for listening to Open Container and ask that you please subscribe to the show by clicking Follow on the podcast app you're using right now. Following the podcast is the best way to ensure that we will continue to crack open the container every single week. Thanks and let's start the show.

Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. I'm a journalist, writer and overall lover of the outdoors.

I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I learned how to find the star Arcturus at a wilderness ranger rendezvous.

On this podcast, we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community.

Let's get some Explaining why he wrote Walden, why he walked away from society to live in a cabin by that now infamous pond Henry David Thoreau wrote, I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teach and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life, to drive life into a corner and reduce it to its lowest terms.

Now, of course, many criticize Thoreau, pointing out that the pond wasn't really that far from town and that he was in many ways a child of privilege. But there's a reason his words and ideas still resonate. That basic desire to live deliberately is, if anything, even more important.

Today we are deeply entangled in society. Much of that connection is good, but much of it makes it nearly impossible to get away, to get lost, to truly carve out space for ourselves.

We're embedded in a web of reels and phones, GPS, streaming services, location trackers, 247 news cycles and social media presences. The answer to anything is always at our fingertips, summarized in a video or explained by AI chatbots. But in all of this, what's often lost is us.

Our self determination, our private identities, our ability to not interact. That's a basic human need.

It's what Thoreau sought to escape the social media of his day, the gossip and expectations of a tightly knit New England town. So he struck out to live deliberately, to take his well being and day to day existence into his own hands.

That kind of freedom is something we need to reclaim. I've been to Walden Pond. Though it's close to Boston, highways and constant noise, there's still peace there.

In the fall you can take in the explosion of foliage and see the foundation of Thoreau's cabin.

In the summer, you can swim out into that chalky blue water and for a moment you feel an escape, even in the middle of the East Coast's urban corridor. But if you want to live deliberately, you need to seek wilderness, or what little wilderness is left.

There are so few places on Earth now where you can't be tracked. I often think of Ernest Shackleton's incredible voyage on the Endurance, how the ship was crushed by pack ice, yet he and his crew all survived.

It's one of the greatest survival stories ever told. But it could never happen. Today, no explorer is truly beyond the reach of our technology.

Even the Apollo 13 astronauts were only briefly out of contact on the far side of the moon, a moon that billionaires now want to colonize. What's left? For the rest of us, there are still places we can escape, at least for a little while. And the wilderness still has so much to teach us.

Self reliance, inner peace, physical endurance, humility. Being alone in the wild helps us rediscover something essential. How to just be. To exist among wildflowers, peaks, snowfields and streams.

To climb sketchy trails and hike until your legs ache. We need this. We need to preserve these places so we can preserve this deeply human experience.

What Emerson called self reliance and what Thoreau called living deliberately. Or as Mary Austin, who discovered herself in the great spaces of the Mojave, wrote, it's good to know what it is to be alone.

The desert holds a mirror. We see ourselves in our wilderness. This past weekend, I had a little taste of that with my wife, Rada.

We escaped into the Mummy Range of Rocky Mountain national park, hiking out from the popular trailhead at Lempy Ridge. We passed through the meadows of McGregor Ranch, the spires of the Needles rising above us until cell coverage disappeared.

We camped in the deep recesses of Black Canyon, savoring simple pleasures, cooking Madra's lentils for dinner, sipping whiskey from a flask and reading Basho's Travel Logs, a mix of prose and haiku that reveals the complexity of the world in a single breath. On our last day, we hiked 20 miles and climbed nearly 5,000ft to reach the Cirque of Crystal Lake beneath the cliffs of Mount Fairchild.

And we returned at sunset. Not once did we miss our phones. This isn't to say the modern world lacks value. But we must remember what we can learn from being alone in the wild.

My guest today launched his career by teaching others self reliance in the wilderness. Ian Yalis began his career at the Canadian Outward Bound wilderness school in 1978, rising from intern to become its youngest executive director.

He then transitioned into purpose driven business, holding leadership roles at the Body Shop, Patagonia and Nike, and co founding the sustainable outdoor brand. Now he is one of the authors of the new book Carry the the Remarkable Story of the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness school.

Through over 50 personal stories from alumni, staff and founders, the book captures the spirit of the school's enduring legacy. So let's open the container with Ian Yalis.

Well, I am very excited to be here with Ian Yalis, who I have known for a long time from his work in the outdoor industry at Patagonia and now and recently I have learned was extremely involved in the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School as director for a long time. Correct, Ian?

Ian Yolles

00:07:11.230 - 00:07:17.470

That is correct. It's a pleasure to be here with you, Doug. I've been a listener and fan of your podcast.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:07:18.450 - 00:08:00.760

I love that, love to hear that. Well, I am a fan of this new book that you were a big part of creating, bringing to life.

It is called Carry the the Remarkable Story of the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School. And it's really kind of a anthology in a way.

There's lots of contributors, including you, including Bob Pei, who was the founder of the school, and a lot of other really interesting folks who've gone, who went through the program in their youth and work there as well. But before we get too deep into the book, I just wanted to ask you a basic question to start things off and it what is wilderness for you?

Ian Yolles

00:08:01.320 - 00:08:28.570

I think very simply, Doug, wilderness for me is a place, any place. But the defining characteristic of wilderness is a place where the wildness of that place and everything that that implies is left to its own path.

It's not disturbed, it's not encumbered, it's not altered by human activity and Canadian wilderness.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:08:28.570 - 00:08:41.929

You guys up there have the ability.

You've got a little more of it than we have, at least in the lower 48, I think, because you are abutting the Arctic and there's a lot of land that's, that's untouched in that way.

Ian Yolles

00:08:43.129 - 00:09:37.420

Well, I think one of the, and I am Canadian, by the way. I'm originally from Toronto, although I've lived in the states for 30 years or so now.

But I think one of the salient and profound and very meaningful parts of the Canadian identity relates to wilderness and the fact, as you just said, that there is such a, a massive expanse of land in Canada, largely unpopulated, most of the Canadian population exists contiguous to its border with the United States.

And I actually think one of the defining characteristics of the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School, which the book is about, was in fact the remoteness of the school and the landscape that we would travel through with students. It was in fact the most remote Outward bound school of any of the outward bound schools around the world.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:09:38.750 - 00:09:39.870

And where was it located?

Ian Yolles

00:09:40.830 - 00:10:28.940

It was in the Boreal forest in the province of Ontario. If you know where Thunder Bay is. Thunder Bay is right on the northernmost shore of Lake Superior.

And we would pick up students at the airport in Thunder Bay.

We'd drive about 60 miles east along the TransCanada highway and then we would make a left hand turn and travel north about another 60 miles along a dirt logging road to, to a magnificent, sublime lake called Black Sturgeon Lake, just south of an even bigger lake called Lake Nipigon. And it was that area and north of that area in a very remote part of the Boreal Forest that our expeditions would take place.

In the summer, traveling by canoe and in the winter by dog team and on skis.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:10:29.660 - 00:10:35.100

When and where have you felt the most in the wild? Where have you felt the wilderness most profoundly?

Ian Yolles

00:10:36.230 - 00:12:22.970

There's a very specific moment that comes to mind, or moments.

I've had the good fortune over the years to paddle a variety of rivers, northern rivers in Canada, rivers like for example the Mountain river in the Northwest Territories. It's right at the Arctic Circle, really pretty adjacent to the border between the Northwest Territories and the Yukon.

In that particular case, we flew in by seaplane with our canoes and all of our gear. It was a two week river remote whitewater trip traveling through the Mackenzie Mountains. So it was an alpine type environment.

But the moment, the specific moment that comes to mind is when the seaplane dropped us off and we unloaded our gear, our canoes and the seaplane took off and we stood there and watched it fly away.

And in that moment, the sense of being in true wilderness, being very, very distant from any form of civilization, realizing that we were, and we were a group of six people on that river, completely self reliant and independent and surrounded by true wilderness and all that that implies and other rivers. Another river that I've paddled and had a very similar experience is the Snake river, this time in the Yukon Territories.

But that moment where the drone of seaplane's engine disappears into silence and the visual reference of the plane disappears over the horizon and there is this deep feeling of being out there and it's.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:12:22.970 - 00:12:33.330

Such a hard feeling, difficult for us to get that experience right now there's so few places left where we can feel left alone into our own devices.

Ian Yolles

00:12:34.530 - 00:17:41.770

Well, it's true, I think that coming back to your question about wilderness, I think the very notion of wilderness has changed dramatically in the contemporary world that we now live in.

And a brief story, if I can, and it's not a story in the book, but it relates to one of the people who contributed to the book, a colleague of mine, a dear friend, John Mordhorst. And back in the winter of 1979, so we're going back, way back here.

John and five friends, several of whom also worked with Outward Bound, John being one of them, embarked on a very ambitious expedition to traverse the Northwest Territories.

So this was a journey that took place over several seasons, beginning in the summer, fall, continuing through the winter, and then picking up the following spring.

They were going to travel about 2,000 miles and the plan was to winter in the barren lands in Canada, one of the most remote wilderness areas one could possibly imagine. And so they were.

They were wintering in the barrens, and John and another colleague of his, also former Outward Bound person, Mike Mobley, were off on a two or three day dog sledding trip, because through the winter they were traveling in the summer by canoe, in the winter by dog team. And they were off on this two or three day, you know, little exploratory excursion on their dogs.

And as they're crossing this frozen white tundra landscape with nobody, I mean, the closest settlement was probably at least 250 miles away, all of a sudden they spotted this very unusual debris scattered across the landscape. And they had no idea what it was, except that they knew that whatever it was did not belong in this wild place.

And at one point they got off their dog sleds and they went over and there was this big piece of charred metal and they shook it a little bit and just kind of wondered what the hell they had, what it was. They then made their way back to the cabin that the six of them were wintering in.

And they had some kind of radio, and they got on the radio, and by the way, the one other thing they had witnessed while they were out there with their dog teams were several planes flying very low and crisscrossing the landscape. So they sort of put two and two together and thought, well, somebody's looking for something. We have no idea what it is, but maybe we just found.

Turned out that what they had just found was a nuclear powered Russian satellite that had fallen from the sky. And the US military had been tracking this Satellite. They knew that it had some kind of mechanical issue and it was going to fall to Earth.

And so they tracked it.

They knew that somewhere up there there was debris from this satellite and they were desperately looking to recover because this was still sort of Cold War era.

And the next day after they got on the radio and said, look, we don't know what those people are looking for, but we think we found it, you know, huge US military plane landed on the tundra at their doorstep and out got these guys with Geiger counters. They had full hazmat suits on and Geiger counters.

Anyway, it's a long story, but the point is, you know, I think in this world that we live in, we almost have this illusion about wilderness. And it was obviously abruptly brushed away when, you know, the US military industrial complex landed on their doorstep.

And, you know, they had made this decision to go on this year long expedition in wilderness in one of the most isolated places you could find literally on the North American content. They had traveled up to that point, I think about 1600 miles by canoe before they wintered.

And now all of a sudden the world literally was descending upon them.

So, you know, to me that's a very sort of profound, maybe a little bit disruptive story about wilderness in the modern age and our definition of wilderness.

And I mentioned John because subsequent to that expedition, he was largely responsible for introducing the dog sledding program to the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School. Having had that experience working with dogs, he had previously worked with Outward Bound.

So he was an important figure programmatically in the evolution of the kinds of programs we were running at the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:17:42.010 - 00:17:48.410

Well, let's talk about the school and let's talk about the book. What was the impetus for creating this book now?

Ian Yolles

00:17:49.050 - 00:24:43.110

Well, the impetus really goes back to 2019. That was the 50th anniversary of Outward Bound in Canada. Of course, as I referenced earlier, Outward Bound schools existed, exist all over the world.

The first Outward Bound school started in Aberduvy in Wales back in 1943. That's a whole other story. Maybe we can explore that. But 2019 was the 50th anniversary of Outward Bound in Canada.

And that event or that moment in time was the catalyst for a series of conversations with three of my dear friends and former colleagues. We all worked together at the Canadian Outward Bound School. In the genesis phase of the school, the school opened in.

The Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness school opened in 1976. And I found myself in conversation with three dear friends and colleagues.

One was Alistair MacArthur Alistair was the second executive director of the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School. He was an Aussie. He had worked with Outward Bound in the uk. He had worked at the Hurricane Island Outward Bound School in Maine.

He had worked at the Colorado Outbound Rebound School.

Alistair prior to that served in the Antarctic as part of the Australian Geologic or British Geologic Antarctic Survey and ran dogs down in the Antarctic. So Alistair was on this phone call. Alistair currently lives in his home country of Australia. Wendy Pei was on the phone call.

Wendy Pei was the founder of Bob Pay. Sorry. Wendy Pei is the daughter of Bob Pei, the founder of the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School.

And Wendy was the school's first program director. So she was there from day one. And the third person on this phone call was Chuck Luckman.

Chuck had previously worked at the North Carolina Outward Bound School, the Minnesota Outward Bound School, came to the Canadian Outward Bound School as an instructor and followed Wendy as the school's second program director. So we were just talking and renewing our friendships and our histories and our lives with one another.

But of course that led to a lot of reminiscing and reflecting not only on our time at the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School, but reflecting on what an impact that it had and how that experience working at the school had really informed the trajectory of our lives in some very meaningful ways. And so these phone calls continued, actually they were zoom calls. And we started to have these monthly conversations.

And at a certain point, Alistair, with a certain amount of vigor, he argued and suggested and cajoled us around the idea that something should be written down that captured the unique sort of spirit and philosophy of this particular Outward Bound School. What the question was that he posited was what made the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School unique? And so eventually we gave in to his cajoling.

But by the way, I certainly never imagined we would have a book. I thought initially maybe we write a paper, maybe we would publish some kind of manuscript and give it to our friends.

Chuck had a nonprofit publishing company and actually it's called Flying Tout Press. He had published some books, books in the past. And in fact, Flying Trout Press is one of the co publishers of the book that we ended up with.

What we did was we found email addresses of everybody that we could who worked at the school back in its early days, former board members, even some students. We invited people via email to respond to the prompt. What made the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School unique?

Over time, content started to come in and some of, obviously some of the content were in the form of essays. But Very different essays. Some were quite philosophical, even scholarly. Some were whimsical.

Some were just, you know, sort of reflecting on stories and friendships and relationships. We got some poetry back.

We got some original artwork, in this case by Lauren Tippett, a great artist who had original drawings he had done while he worked at the school. And so it started to have more substance than what I certainly imagined.

Meanwhile, these monthly zoom calls continued the first Tuesday of every month at 4pm Pacific time with Wendy and Chuck and Alistair. At a certain point, I suggested that we talk to a good friend and colleague of mine, Raoul Goff.

Raoul and I served on the NatureBridge board together. NatureBridge is an organization I'm very dedicated to. It has a similar mission to Outward Bound.

But the reason I suggested we talk to Raoul is Raoul has a remarkable independent publishing company called Inside Editions. It never occurred to me that Raoul would want to publish the book.

I just thought he could give us some guidance, given the sort of manuscript that was in development. Along the way, we got some donations from the four of us, but also many of the contributors to just help get.

We hired an editor, we hired a young person to do some hand drawn maps. And by the time we talked to Raul, and the purpose of the conversation was just to get his counsel and insight and we described what we were doing.

And I discovered that 30 years ago or so, he had previously published a book about Outward Bound.

I had no idea and, you know, 30 or 40 minutes into our conversation or rule said, well, Ian, you know, from the sounds of what you've done and the content that you've created, I think I might be interested in publishing this book. So his publishing company is called Inside Editions. He has an imprint called Earth Aware.

And all of the books that he's published, some beautiful, beautiful books under the Earth Aware imprint, all have an environmental theme. So we signed a contract with Inside Editions. They have a distribution partnership with Simon and Schuster, and that's how it all happened.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:24:43.590 - 00:25:14.290

So moving beyond, I think people dig into the book and hear what you say about making the Canadian branch unique. What is it about Outward Bound in general? You said it started in Wales, all over the country.

I think so many people in the outdoor space and beyond are graduates. I think of Luis Benitez, who we had on the podcast, being a huge proponent of Outward Bound.

What is it about Outward Bound that has lasted so long and impacted people in such a positive way?

Ian Yolles

00:25:14.930 - 00:29:36.590

Well, Outward Bound, as some of our listeners may know, as I referenced, was started in 1943, and it was founded by A gentleman whose name is Kurt Hahn. And that's an important part of the story. And just quickly, some anecdotes. So Kurt Hahn was born in Germany. He was Jewish.

He started a famous private school there called Zalem. He was an educator, had many, many influences in terms of how he thought about education and education of the whole person.

But importantly, part of, I think, understanding Outward Bound relates to Hahn's own experiences growing up as a Jew in Germany as Hitler was coming to power. And there was a famous incident, I think around 1933, that sort of. It's referred to as the Brown Shirts incident.

And Hahn took a stand, in fact, he led a protest with his students against Hitler's rise to power. It was a moral stance. And I think Outward Bound has a lot to do.

The underlying pedagogy and philosophy has a lot to do with the notion of moral education and values based education. And Hahn was probably thrown in jail.

And fortunately for him, because his family had some aristocratic connections, he was able to find his way out of jail and ended up in Britain where he started the famous Gordonston School, where Prince Philip went to school.

And then during the war, the insight that he had was that the British merchant seamen who were out at sea, the boats were being sunk by German submarines. And his observation, or the observation that he made was counterintuitive because what was happening was it was the older gentlemen that.

And they were all men, of course, who tended to survive that harsh ordeal at sea in the cold North Atlantic sea, not the younger men who presumably had, generally speaking, more physical stamina.

And so the insight that led to the creation of the first Outward Bound school and the pedagogy and the curriculum was this idea of character development. And that character was forged out of experience.

And you would develop a certain tenacity of spirit, if you will, that can only really be foraged from experience.

So that was sort of the cornerstone about We're Bound and the idea that you're educating the whole person, that there's an experiential component to the learning process and that risk is synonymous with learning that if we're not willing to take some risks in our lives, we tend to atrophy in terms of our development as a person. There's so much more I could say. Of course, you're not on an Outward Bound course as an individual.

You're part of a community that forms and you're not only developing your own sense of potential and capability and confidence, but you're working very intimately and intensely with a small community. Of people. And so there's an element of teamwork and leadership. And all of those dynamics are a critical part of a network bound experience.

I think one other thing I would mention is that if you go back to the word education itself and the etymology of that word, the Latin root word for education is educare, and that literally means to draw forth or to draw out. I contrast that with more traditional forms of education which tend to be about stuffing information into, you know, a person's being.

Whereas I think the true idea of education is to draw forth, to draw out the innate potential and compassion and resilience that we all have. And I think that's part of the power of an Outward Bound experience.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:29:38.110 - 00:30:01.470

I love that. And I love that Outward Bound at its very roots was a resistance to fascism. And I think that that's what you're saying too.

In that kind of education, right.

A fascist or totalitarian or ideological education is only going to tell you certain things, whereas an outward bound or a deeper education is going to help you learn how to think on your own and react. Right?

Ian Yolles

00:30:01.550 - 00:31:23.490

Well, that's absolutely right.

And just to come back to Han for a second, you know, I think this idea of values and ethics, you know, he talked about creating these experiences in order to give. Initially it was focused on young people, and obviously initially it was only young boys. That all changed over time.

But the idea was to impel young people into what Hahn called value forming experiences.

And more specifically, he talked about sort of the five pillars of these value forming experience, which he articulated as one, an enterprising curiosity, two, an indefatigable spirit, three tenacity and pursuit, four, a readiness for sensible self denial, and five, he said, above all, compassion. Now, he articulated that back in 1943.

And I would argue if you think about those five pillars, those tenets, those kinds of values in today's world, especially for young people, I would argue cultivating those qualities, those values is even more important today than in some ways it was back in 1943.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:31:23.730 - 00:32:04.030

Well, you mentioned Latin roots before. I don't know if you know, but I am an absolute Latin and Roman history geek.

So one of the things that stood out for me in this book is one of the epigraphs at the beginning from Roman emperor and Stoic philosopher Marcus Aurelius.

And it is this, it is all you need are these certainty of judgment in the present moment, action for the common good in the present moment, and an attitude of gratitude in the present moment for anything that comes your way.

Now, how does that apply to what you experience and what you bring back to the world from something like the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School?

Ian Yolles

00:32:04.750 - 00:36:21.270

Well, first of all, it doesn't surprise me that you're interested in etymology and words, and that's reflected in the quality of your own writing and thinking, Doug. So that doesn't surprise me.

But, you know, maybe just to pull that apart a little bit and again, reflect on the experience at the Canadian Network Bound Wilderness School. So Marcus Aurelius talks about certainty of judgment in the present moment.

And you know, as we were talking about a little earlier, we were expeditioning through very remote wilderness. And this is before cell phones and sat phones, and you'd be out on a 16 day canoe expedition in true wilderness. I mean, it would be.

You'd be days away by canoe to get to any sort of communication point. And so, you know, as an instructor, it's not a trivial responsibility.

And ultimately, as an Outward Bound instructor, you're responsible for people's lives.

And so cultivating judgment in an environment that is unpredictable and changing, and cultivating judgment when you're ultimately responsible for the lives of 10 different individuals who are learning how to work together with the team. So judgment was at a premium.

And in terms of the kinds of staff that we looked for at Outward Bound and the kinds of staff training that, that we would do, it all hinged around the notion of having judgment in the moment and sometimes in stressful moments. And by the way, just on the curriculum, that was reflected in what transpires over the arc of an Outward Bound course for a student.

Because the students arrive on day one and they're just learning about one another. They're learning how to communicate as a team. They're learning leadership skills.

They're also learning technical skills that are working, required to travel safely through a wilderness environment.

And the way an Outward Bound course progresses is that over the arc of the course, say it's a 21, a three week course, the group is taking on more and more responsibility and becoming more and more autonomous for their decision making. And ultimately it culminates in what we call the final expedition where the group is traveling on its own.

The instructors maybe would be following them. They might be several hours behind them on a lake or portaging or whatever it may be.

So that idea of judgment and cultivating judgment and the ability to make decisions in the moment is embodied in the pedagogy, the curriculum, and the evolution that a student goes through on an Outward Bound course. And then action for the common good. I mean, Outward Bound is Rooted in the service.

There's a service project on every Outward Bound course where you're helping, you're performing service for some community of people. But also while you're on an Outward Bound course, you have to think of the well being of the group. The group is only as strong as its weaker member.

So you're not only learning about compassion, you're exercising compassion and you're, you're exercising this notion of service to enhance the well being of the group and the community that you're a part of. So that's also embodied in an Outward Bound course and then an attitude of gratitude in the present moment for anything that comes along.

We know that the wilderness is an unpredictable environment and you can encounter extremely harsh conditions.

And I think that notion of gratitude for what's unexpected, not only on our network Bound course or in a wilderness environment, but in life, can be extremely helpful just in terms of dealing with external circumstances that perhaps one never, ever anticipated. And that notion of gratefulness and thankfulness and you have a choice you can make in those unexpected encounters.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:36:23.690 - 00:36:45.370

Well, I think that, you know, you were telling me a bit about Kurt Hahn and I think he would have loved your chapter in this book for its title from the very beginning, which is From Skepticism to Fervent Belief. So how did you become involved with the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School and what made you a fervent believer?

Ian Yolles

00:36:45.530 - 00:42:26.470

Well, the title of my essay, From Skepticism to Fervent Belief was no accident because it embodied my experience with Outward Bound going back to my first encounter with Outward Bound back in. I don't know, it must have been the early sort of mid-70s. There was a documentary about Outward Bound.

It was a documentary that was made at the Colorado Outward Bound School. And I remember watching it. It was a National Geographic documentary film. And in that documentary, there was a.

A moment where there was a student about to rappel off the edge of a cliff and they were roped in.

So physically they were very safe, but they were very anxious, which is not unusual when a person is about to rappel off the edge of a cliff for the first time. And in this particular documentary, what I witnessed, what I saw was the instructor going up to the student.

And again, physically, they were roped in. They were physically very safe.

And rather than sort of encourage them to go over the cliff in the many ways that you might, they basically physically kick their feet out from under them to go over the cliff. Now, by the way, there is an asterisk in the book.

I was informed later by my colleague Alastair MacArthur in the writing of the book that, you know, there was some manipulation that went on in the filming of the documentary to give it a little tension. So there is an asterisk to this documentary, but nevertheless that's what I saw on tv.

And so I just thought, well, this is a pretty kind of off the wall organization.

And then I learned a little bit more about Outward Bound and Kurt Hahn and Gordonston, the Gordonston School that he started in England and it was famous for cold showers in the morning and had a little bit of an authoritarian streak.

And so that's just sort of further reinforce this idea that I had about Bound as being a little bit of a militaristic kind of harsh learning environment.

And then the third encounter, shortly after all of that was a friend of mine, this is in high school, who announced that she was going to go on an Outward Bound course at what was at the time the Texas Outward Bound school. And I said, oh, you shouldn't do that. It's this off the wall organization.

Off she went one summer and tragically, and actually this is very poignant given the flood that just swept through parts of Texas that has killed hundreds of people. They experienced a flash flood on her Outward Bound course. And most of the members of the brigade were able to climb trees.

There was one person who didn't get up a tree in time and was swept down a canyon and was killed. And so, you know, I had all of these ideas of what I thought Atwood Bound was.

But then I went off to college from Toronto in the U.S. and the first experience I had was a freshman wilderness orientation program. I went to North Carolina for a 10 day backpacking trip with a group of my cohort entering college.

And that experience was led by a person whose name was Reli Nadler. Relli had worked at the Colorado, sorry, at the North Carolina Outward Bound School. Relli was a trained psychologist.

Relli was in my mind an exceptional human being, an incredibly skilled, gifted leader with immense insight into people and human dynamics and group dynamics. And he orchestrated that experience in such a sensitive and thoughtful and remarkable way. It just left an incredible impact on me.

Now, it wasn't an Outward Bound experience, but Raleigh was obviously drawing from his experience working with Outward Bound. So that kind of put a big question in my mind.

And then as I started to spend more time whitewater kayaking and climbing, I started to meet people who worked with Outward Bound like Reli. Reli wasn't the only one. And consistently I just thought these people were amazing. And I loved them, I related to them.

I enjoyed hanging out with them. I wanted to climb with them, I wanted to paddle with them. But I had this cognitive dissonance.

Why are such high quality people working for this off the wall wall organization, at least as I perceived it? And so ultimately I thought, okay, I need to find out for myself.

I had a real interest in terms of what I was studying at Antioch in philosophy and education and human development. So I applied to work at Outward Bound. The first time I applied, I did not get a job.

I applied to what was at the time the Northwest Outward Bound School in the Pacific Northwest here in the United States. And then I applied to work at the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School. Wendy Pei was the program director. She hired me as an intern.

And very quickly I realized that everything I had imagined about Outward Bound was absolutely not the case. And hence that idea of from skepticism to fervent belief.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:42:26.980 - 00:42:47.700

And there's something in this chapter you talk about. I love this term. You talk about the holographic participation principle, which is the idea that sort of an organization is bound by its values. Right.

And that's something you learned and developed there. And how has that guided you at Outward Bound and beyond to the other work you've done Patagonia now and the work you're doing now?

Ian Yolles

00:42:48.100 - 00:48:37.230

Well, it relates to the question that we were trying to respond to in the book. What made the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School unique? And I do feel I have a certain perspective on it because.

Just briefly, not to go too far down this tangent, but when I finished my undergraduate degree, I was very fortunate to receive a postgraduate research fellowship from a foundation called the Thomas J. Watson Foundation.

And we don't need to talk about the nature of the foundation of the fellowship, except to say that it enabled me to spend almost two years traveling around the world working at and visiting almost all of the Outward Bound schools worldwide. So I started in Europe.

I went to East Africa, Southern Africa, I went to Southeast Asia, Australia, New Zealand, and then I came back to work at the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School as the program director and ultimately as the executive director. So I did.

And I was really trying to answer the question with that research fellowship, is there some consistent philosophy and pedagogy that is intelligible, that's put into practice and replicated from school to school to school, versus the extent to which each school is uniquely influenced by its broader cultural, political and social environment? So I think I had some perspective on the Outward Bound movement worldwide. But to come back to your question about Holographic participation.

One of the things I would argue, and we argue and articulate and explore in the book that made the Canadian or mound Wilderness School very unique was the notion of community. And it began with your experience as a staff person. And it relates to the idea of a hologram, in my view. I use that as a metaphor in my essay.

So as a group of staff, we were living together in this remote location on this magnificent lake called Black Sturgeon Lake. The closest, you know, the closest community was 60 miles away down a dirt logging road.

So as a group of staff, in many ways, we were living our own Outward Bound experience. You know, how did we function day to day?

You know, we had to cook meals, we had to fix vehicles, we had to make sure the gear was in working condition. We had to create an argue about policies that we thought were important in terms of some of the safety procedures.

There were all kinds of decisions that had to be made as a group of individuals. And so we were living our own Outward Bound experience.

And the idea of a hologram, if you think about it as a metaphor, is, you know, a hologram as it's divided in pieces into, you know, its component parts, if you will, divided into pieces. Each piece retains the entire image of the whole piece within it, but it's seen from a slightly different perspective.

So one of the unique things about the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School was as a group of staff, we were living our own Outward Bound course with one another. And I think that created this notion of a holographic experience. We were living by certain values.

But when we went off as instructors to go and instruct a course with a group of students, we were carrying that experience from our community as a group of staff and professionals, living and working together, making decisions together based on certain values and ideals. We were carrying that directly into our experience with students on a, say, 21 or 23 or 24 day outward bound course. And so I think that's a metaphor.

The notion of a hologram and holographic participation, that, to me, really stood out in my own experience at the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School.

And I would argue that a really healthy organization is healthy when its behaviors and its actions reflect a congruent set of values that the members of that organization hold in common. And if I can put in a little commercial, one of the places I've had the great honor of working along the way is Patagonia.

I think many of us would argue that one of the reasons Patagonia is such a revered, such a respected brand If I can comment on Patagonia for a second, is over decades there have been certain values that have held true there, but Patagonia has manifested those values through a series, continually a series of real world actions and decisions about how they want to function as an organization, what they believe in, how those beliefs are put into practice. To me, that's another great example of this notion of holographic participation.

As an employee at Patagonia, those values are deeply embedded, they're deeply understood, they're deeply shared, they've remained consistent over the life of the company.

Again, the actions have evolved over time and how they've moved, been sort of made manifest, have evolved, but there's a level of congruency and consistency that is reliable and congruent. Yeah.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:48:37.230 - 00:49:00.020

And that seems to be the big takeaway, right, from an experience like Outward Bound and looking forward to way we can create, not just a better planet, better society, better way to move forward is by really having an established set of values that then all actions come out of. Am I correct? Is that.

Ian Yolles

00:49:01.220 - 00:50:02.350

Yeah, I completely agree and I would argue that. And again, I think this was absolutely true at the Canadian Outworld Wilderness School. Again, Patagonia, I think, is a great example.

I think any great organization. Or you could talk about it in organizational terms.

You could talk about it as at the individual level, you could talk about it at the community level, you could talk about it at the society level. I think sort of greatness, if you will, it's built from the inside out.

In other words, if we're talking about an organizational construct like the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School, it starts with the extent to which the core group of staff, the people who work there, not only understand the values, they believe in the values, they're aligned behind those values. And then the kinds of behaviors and actions and decisions that you see sort of externally are reflective of those core shared values.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:50:02.590 - 00:50:11.790

And how can you then take that to a new organization? Or how can you teach people that when you come out of an Outward Bound experience, how can you move that forward in the world?

Ian Yolles

00:50:12.590 - 00:51:16.990

Well, I think it starts with being crystal clear on what those values are. And in my experience, that requires dialogue and debate and a process of distillation to get to a very simple, clear articulation of those values.

So I think that's where it begins. It's. It's a discovery process and an articulation process.

And then of course, the values are not just something that get housed on a pretty piece of paper or in some notebook, but they should, I believe become a reference for decision making. They should inform the decisions that are made.

Those values should show up in the kinds of decisions that are being made and the kinds of actions that are being taken. Again, whether it's by an individual or an organization or at a community level.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:51:17.310 - 00:51:42.030

Well, unfortunately, we're starting to run out of time, but there's two more questions I want to ask you. We got on, and the first, I think is very important, and I think you led right into it, is moving forward for Outward Bound.

How can it respond to a new generation of youth and really a new culture where we're seeing a lot more underrepresented populations need to be involved in these programs that they've been shut out of before?

Ian Yolles

00:51:42.690 - 00:55:07.870

Well, we live in a time of a poly crisis.

Whether it's climate change or the destruction of ecosystems and habitats, whether it's the constant impact of technology on people's lives and the impact of technology and how we think and the growing alienation from the natural world, all of these things leads me to argue that. That Outward Bound and experiences like Outward Bound, especially for young people, are more important than ever.

Not that Outward Bound is some sort of complete antidote to this poly crisis.

But I would argue, and I believe that a lot of the problems of modern society that we confront on a daily basis that are in many ways only growing worse, stem in a very primal way from our deep alienation from the natural world. The sense that we're somehow separate from the natural world.

And perhaps not only separate, but the natural world is there as a resource for us to use in whatever way we want. So I just think an experience of nature in young people's lives is more critical than ever.

And I think, as we all know, anybody who's been interested in their own sort of outdoor experiences, certainly anybody who's worked in the outdoor industry, it has historically been very dominated by white people and probably people who have more socioeconomic capability.

And so I think there's a great need to diversify the opportunity, again, a certain, especially for young people, but not limit young people to have experiences in the natural world. I had the great honor of serving on the board of NatureBridge, a nonprofit organization. I chaired the NatureBridge board for six years.

NatureBridge is a partner of the National Park Service. We have campus facilities in some of the most iconic national parks in the United States, like Yosemite National park park or Olympic National Park.

And the mission of NatureBridge is to introduce young people to both the science and wonder of the natural world with the idea that that will catalyze self discovery, but also help generate the next cadre of environmental stewards. And we serve about 35,000 kids a year. They come as a part of their school group.

But I mentioned NatureBridge because there's a huge emphasis on ensuring that of those 35,000 kids that come on a NatureBridge program every year in these remarkable national parks, that we serve a diverse population.

And so we raise a considerable amount of scholarship money to ensure that we can work with schools and communities that otherwise would never have an opportunity, opportunity to be in these majestic national park settings. So I think there's a huge need to diversify access to wilderness.

I think the outdoor industry has a significant responsibility to help catalyze that process of diversification and access. I think it's critical for our future.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:55:08.110 - 00:55:32.580

Well, I think you are such a great representative of the Outward Bound experience and of a better way world and of holographic participation principles. And it's been so good to have you on. Now, if people want to get this incredible book, Carry the Flame, how would they be able to do that?

Or if they just want to share more stories with you or get in touch with you, how would they do that?

Ian Yolles

00:55:32.820 - 00:56:11.420

Well, of course, the book is available on the ubiquitous Amazon.

If you prefer to purchase the book, and I'd love you to purchase it from independent bookseller, you can go to Goodreads, and through Goodreads, you can find an independent bookseller. Maybe it's available at your local bookstore. If you Google Carry the Flame and Outward Bound, you'll certainly find a way to buy the book.

And if you want to get in touch with me or explore some of the ideas of the book or talk about the book, you can do that. You can find me online via, I guess LinkedIn is perhaps the easiest way.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:56:12.530 - 00:56:18.930

Great. And then one final question for you, the question we give everyone at the end of the show. What gives you hope?

Ian Yolles

00:56:19.570 - 00:58:38.540

I'm laughing, Doug, because. And this again reflects the deep impact Outward Bound had on me.

I have five friends, former, all former colleagues of mine at the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School. You know, we, we met back in the late 70s, early 80s, believe it or not.

This group of friends has had an email correspondence, an exchange that's been going on for, I don't know, maybe 25 years. 20 years.

One of them lives in Singapore, one of them lives in Japan, one lives in Ottawa, one lives in Peterborough, one lives in Vancouver, and of course, I live in Portland, Oregon. The reason I mention it is, well, one, it reflects on the deep friendship that were developed at the Canadian Outwit Wilderness School.

But one of my friends and colleagues argues vociferously through this email exchange that, by the way, touches on every topic under the sun, and some we go quite deep on.

But one of my colleagues, former Outward Bound colleagues, argues that we're past hope, that it's a waste of time to be hopeful, that he uses the metaphor of palliative care, that we we need to accept where we are as a civilization, as humanity, and we need to care for one another in more of a palliative posture. And on this email exchange, we've debated that topic deeply.

Having said that, I think the thing that personally gives me hope or the most hope is I have a great love for engaging with younger people.

And so when I meet, you know, kids in their teens or their twenties or and I and I talk to them and I engage with them and I hear their ideas and I see what they're doing, that really inspires me and gives me hope, perhaps more so than anything.

And, you know, maybe that's a failing on my part because maybe that's a way of saying, you know, it's all on the which I think is in its own way, a little bit irresponsible. But I do get very fired up and very inspired when I encounter the next generation.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:58:38.940 - 00:58:44.940

Love that. Ian, thank you so much for being on, and I think we still have a lot to talk about if you ever want to come on again.

Ian Yolles

00:58:45.020 - 00:58:47.580

Thanks, Doug. I've really appreciated the conversation.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:58:49.020 - 00:59:17.770

Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight llc.

Please take a second to follow our show and whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com find the book carry the the Remarkable Story of the Canadian Outward Bound Wilderness School at your local independent bookseller. Our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Genser. I'm Doug Schnitzvahn. Get some thanks for listening.