Highlighting Humanity In Ukraine
- colin7931
- Sep 16
- 41 min read
In this episode of Open Container, host Doug Schnitzspahn is joined by Jordan Campbell who is a journalist, photographer, mountaineer, and award-winning documentary filmmaker, to discuss his latest project, Ukraine Under Fire.
Campbell, known for his career in the outdoor industry and international expeditions, has turned his focus toward humanitarian storytelling in conflict zones. He shares his experience embedding with medics, civilians, and soldiers on the frontlines of Ukraine, capturing the resilience of ordinary people facing extraordinary circumstances.
Topics include:
How a career in climbing and the outdoor industry prepared Campbell for work in war zones.
The misinformation and propaganda surrounding Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
The resilience and humanity of everyday Ukrainians, from news presenters to frontline medics.
The moral weight of documenting war and maintaining hope amid devastation.
How outdoor values—risk, resilience, and connection—translate into humanitarian action.
The legacy of Peter Fouché, a frontline medic featured in the film who was killed in 2024.
Jordan’s story is one of risk, responsibility, and resilience. It’s about what it means to live with compassion and document truth, even in the harshest conditions.
Learn more about the film and upcoming screenings at ukraineunderfire.org.
Thanks for listening! Open Container is a production of Rock Fight, LLC. Let's Get Some!
Sign up for NEWS FROM THE FRONT, Rock Fight's semi-weekly newsletter by heading to www.rockfight.co and clicking Join The Mailing List.
Please follow and subscribe to Open Container and give us a 5 star rating and a written review wherever you get your podcasts.
Send your feedback, questions, and comments to myrockfight@gmail.com.
Click Here To Listen On Your Favorite Podcast App
Or Just Click The Player Below!
Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:01.200 - 00:00:08.560
Some bristle at the idea that we live on stolen land, but it is true. Genocide was committed in the name of America.
Jordan Campbell
00:00:08.640 - 00:00:16.000
40% of Russia's navy is in the bottom of the Black Sea, taken down by a country that doesn't even have a navy.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:16.320 - 00:00:23.200
The planet is no longer full of empty spaces, yet we still fight, kill, and exist in conflict with ourselves.
Jordan Campbell
00:00:23.520 - 00:00:27.760
This would be like any suburb in, you know, North Boulder or Littleton.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:28.160 - 00:07:11.120
I would fight and die somewhere here if it was necess. Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. I'm a journalist, writer, and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I have even studied poetry in the medieval halls of Krakow, Poland.
On this podcast, we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Let's get some can time in the mountains make you a better person? I think about this question often.
My time in wild places, on peaks, in the beautiful isolation of deep powder in the far reaches of the world, has certainly changed me. It has made me more confident and, I hope, more compassionate.
It has made me more in tune not just with my rhythms as an athlete, a climber and an inquisitive human, but also with the greater workings of the world around us. It's no coincidence that so many outdoor athletes are engaged in climate action right now. They see what's happening to the planet firsthand.
They see how it affects glaciers, wildlife, weather. Of course, the chance to travel the world, to climb, ski, paddle and immerse yourself in it is a privilege.
And with that privilege must come responsibility. Outdoor adventurers are deeply engaged with the fate of the planet and its wild creatures.
Yet all too often, we overlook the human element of the places we visit. To me, this is the most important part.
When we travel to, say, the Himalaya, we are there as visitors in a space that has been understood and revered for generations, long before Westerners paved inroads with guiding companies. I've been captivated by Wade Davis Outstanding book, Into the Silence. Recently.
It chronicles the quest for the summit of Everest undertaken by British veterans of World War I.
It ends with the disappearance of Mallory and Irvine in the clouds on Everest's north ridge, leaving behind the mystery of whether they ever reach the summit.
The book reflects on a different age of the Earth, when nations interacted purely as imperial powers, when there were still parts of the globe untraveled, and when conquest often meant claiming landscapes with little regard for the people already living there Here in the US Our own imperialism consumed the continent. Some bristle at the idea that we live on stolen land. But it is true. Genocide was committed in the name of America.
I don't think shame is the most useful response. We can't return to the world our ancestors inhabited, but we can try to understand the one they left behind and consider how to best live within it.
Today we are privileged and lucky to climb, ski and hike these beautiful public lands. But we must always remember that people were displaced so we could be here. Don't react against that truth. Just carry it with you.
Let it shape how you interact with the land and with the descendants of those who've lived here for millennia. I think our idea of exploration needs to change, and I do see that change happening in the work of the best explorers.
Today, the planet is no longer full of empty spaces. Yet we still fight, kill, and exist in conflict with ourselves and our environment. Can we change that as advocates of the outdoors?
Can we make a difference as explorers?
I think of Killian Journey, racing across the mountains I can see from my backyard, attempting to link the Colorado, California and Washington 14ers in a single month, using nothing but human power.
In that quest, he says he wants not just to move quickly through the peaks, but to understand the American west, its people and its landscapes all at once.
And yet, perhaps even braver expeditions are unfolding now in a world where wars and conflicts rise up again, despite our intelligence and emotional capacity for peace. I look at someone like Jeremy Jones, a snowboarder who seeks out the steepest lines and deepest powder he can reach under his own power.
He has since dedicated his life to protecting our winners, working to ensure that future generations still have snow. Exploration, then, doesn't have to be only about objectives and conquests. That part is beautiful and fun.
But expeditions can also be about connection. My friend James Edward Mills has constantly advocated to tell the stories of black American adventurers and explorers.
This is another way to expand the way we get out on expeditions, to refine narratives lost to history. There are groups that sponsor humanitarian expeditions, groups like Choice.
Humanitarian sends participants out on journeys of what it calls compassion and connections in places across the globe where help is needed. You can find listings of groups across the world looking to help turn privilege into cooperation.
And you can set yourself against the natural challenges and wonders of this planet. Growing yourself as a thinking and compassionate person is the best undertaking of this short life.
My guest today is a longtime member of the outdoor industry who has since turned his focus to humanitarian work. Humanitarian is a powerful word to me, it represents the best we can strive for to use our lives to make life better for others.
Jordan Campbell is a journalist, photographer and award winning documentary filmmaker. He's an accomplished international mountaineer who has written for National Geographic, Outside and Men's Journal.
He is also the director of the award winning documentary film Duck County. Peace Is in Sight in the New South Sudan. And his latest film, Ukraine Under Fire, documents resilience during a time of war.
The film speaks to Ukraine's quest for freedom, democracy and European integration amidst the most significant conflict in Europe since World War II. So let's open the container with Jordan Campbell. I am honored today to have Jordan Campbell on the show.
I've known Jordan for a long time for his work in the outdoor industry and have been just so impressed by the filmmaking, documentary work he has done since. Jordan, welcome to the show.
Jordan Campbell
00:07:11.280 - 00:07:13.280
Hey, Doug, thanks so much for having me.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:07:13.440 - 00:07:27.120
I think to kick it off, I want to just ask you, your most recent film, Ukraine Under Fire, obviously is about the war. And I want you to let us know something that most Americans do not understand about Ukraine and the current war there.
Jordan Campbell
00:07:27.680 - 00:09:01.990
The big top line takeaway I would probably want to present to your listeners is there's just a vast amount of misinformation that continues to be pushed around and floated around. And probably the biggest takeaway is that I think somehow some people think that Russia is winning the war in Ukraine. And that is totally a fallacy.
What they are doing is winning the propaganda war and the misinformation war. So that would be the first thing I would share. And the data on it is just abundant.
All you have to do is, you know, punch it into any open source or just go to the actual sources you want to look for and you'll find that 40% of Russia's navy is in the bottom of the Black Sea, taken down by a country that doesn't even have a navy. You know, there's something like 400 helicopters downed around the country.
One of the senators, I think was Adam Kinzinger, who said, if you'd seen the United States trying to invade Iraq in 2003, which is not a great subject, but it's certainly analogous here. Taking three and a half years to gain 19% of the Southern part of the country, would you call that a success? So that's the first thing.
And then the other side of it is just seeing the misinformation and the propaganda. You know, my father was a diplomat. You know, he really did fight the Cold War.
And I fought with him on many of the subjects around the Cold War, in terms of propaganda and influence and sphere of influence worldwide. The United States is in, like, the eighth or ninth grade, and the Soviets, in this case back in the day, they. They have, like, multiple PhDs.
So I'll just leave it at that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:02.150 - 00:09:20.550
I think that's important to know. Yeah, I think that surprises me. I. I had no idea that that was the case.
I think from national media and from every other source, we hear Ukraine under fire. What was the impetus for you? You know, why did you want to make this film? How did this start?
Jordan Campbell
00:09:21.100 - 00:10:58.650
Well, you know, it really started, Doug, way back.
I mean, I've been following Cold War stories and that whole historical context for years, because, again, my dad was a diplomat way back in the 60s and 70s.
But, you know, there's a big connection to the outdoor industry here, and we should probably bring that up now, and that is that I was working as an executive for Marmot, and we had our international sales meetings, and we would meet with the Russians and the Ukrainians, who were all getting along pretty well. And this would be circa 2010, 11, 12.
And even after Russia invaded the Crimean Peninsula and the Donbass, you know, that there was still a sense of, like, that these were kind of brothers and sisters. And this was just unfortunate. And it was really horrible that they made this decision to sort of snap and grab the land.
But I was really becoming good friends with both the Russian teams and the Ukrainians, including all of our international partners for our company, which was distributed in 56 countries worldwide. I was always told by the Ukrainians, I said, if you ever come to the country, we'd love to take you out to dinner.
And towards the end of my career at Marmot, I was working as an independent journalist, and I went and done an assignment for Men's Journal. And I went to Iraq, and I was covering this pediatric heart surgeon there. I'd already covered a main Libya.
And he said, well, look, I'm also really well known in Ukraine. I've done something like a hundred trips to Ukraine. Why don't we leave Iraq and come up to Ukraine?
And we actually did that in 2017, and I spent a week on the ground seeing what he was doing with heart surgery in Ukraine. And that was part of my story. But basically, I got to see my friends Pablo, which I can't.
I'm not going to try to pronounce Pablo's last name, because it's real. I'm going to butcher it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:10:59.050 - 00:11:01.769
Not as bad as Schnitzbahn Yeah, I've done.
Jordan Campbell
00:11:01.769 - 00:13:28.410
I butchered your name a lot too, Doug, So I apologize for that. But I didn't meet arena on that trip, but I was still seeing her and Pablo as the sales distributors or product distributors in Ukraine.
But what I saw in Kyiv, flying into Kyiv, which was the first and only time I've ever flown in, I've gone five times total. But this first trip, you know, you knew you were in a country that had a conflict way out east, and yet it was like totally normal there.
In Kyiv, at least it felt like it, except for the last day or two that I was there. There'd been a huge anti corruption rally protest there.
And what I saw was a country that was really trying to get away from their former, you know, Russian occupation or the sphere of influence and the corruption that had metastasized across the decades into that country.
And just a side note, I think that's what's also not being clearly presented is how much Ukraine is trying to, you know, overcome the corruption, as it were, and that there's been an enormous amount of work that's been done and it's been largely very successful. But just bracketing that for a second, that that was how I got reconnected with Ukraine, but it was through Pavlo and Irina.
And then if you fast forward, two of the other characters I met with in Lebanon was Igor Palivnik and Alona Levashova. And they're in the medical space, not at all in the outdoor industry. And I met with them for, I guess it was a total of about 10 days.
And we were working in Lebanon. I was. I was working on staff as a communications director for the Global Cardiac alliance. And I'd worked with them in Libya and Iraq and Serbia.
And so I'd been in all these hotspots. I'd been to Benghazi and I'd been to Najaf, and so I had a sense of those hotspots.
But anyway, between those first two outdoor industry connections and my two colleagues there at the Global Cardiac alliance that were Ukrainian, by the time this war began, with Russia striking on February 24 in 2022, I was already applying for a press permit to go into the country and try to get credentials, because I knew this was going to be enormous. And I could feel it.
What took me in, what is in the film, what took me by surprise was when I got on a WhatsApp text with Irina, who had been our distributor. I said, arena, you know, what are you going to do? Are you. Are you Going to leave now or what is your plan?
And she just wrote back, she said, I'm not leaving. We're not going anywhere. I've got to go. I'm building Molotov cocktails in my basement.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:28.410 - 00:13:30.410
Yeah, yeah. And that's in the movie. Yeah, yeah.
Jordan Campbell
00:13:30.410 - 00:13:37.310
And it's absolutely in the movie. Because that was. And at that moment, I think it was that day or the next morning, I booked my ticket, ticket to Krakow, Poland.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:40.590 - 00:14:18.570
I think this is one of the really powerful things about the film you mentioned, Arena Pablo. These are just kind of everyday people who you're showing. They're people like us, right? They're people who love the outdoors.
And I think that's a connection to the outdoor podcast here. I really think the intro to this film was extremely powerful too, where you have Olga Butko, who's a Ukrainian news presenter.
You travel with her throughout the film and she says, you know, right off you always think it's not going to happen to you. And I think that's where this film really hit me hard, is it shows that just people trying to live everyday lives, climbers, mothers, doctors.
I think that's the real tragedy that you show in this film that's happening in Ukraine.
Jordan Campbell
00:14:18.730 - 00:16:58.850
I'm glad you pick up on that too, because it is sort of like we have a. It's an ensemble of a lot of voices. I don't want to say they're talking heads.
We give them the time to be human and be vulnerable and all the little vignettes that we offer. But Olga, this main character especially, she's a professional television news presenter and she's presenting the nightly news every day.
And she has a real life and she comes from humble beginnings out in Kharkiv, you know, so, and, and what's, what's great about her is she speaks great English. So that was helpful.
We wanted someone who was kind of the Ukrainian national treasurer, but also a person with their feet on the ground with those, you know, humble beginnings, so that we could present her to a North American audience or a European audience, a Western European audience. I mean, I think maybe this will resonate.
But part of me, when I first thought about Ukraine 10, 15 years ago a lot, I always kind of this picture that it was this Soviet backwash with really run down and, you know, little old ladies with babushkas and potato farmers.
And to see someone like Olga, who's this really self actualized modern, professional woman working to be the representative of her country, and I think it's really important to get that message.
Across to understand who she is and understand what modern Ukraine looks like originally, before the invasion of 44 million people, it's almost, you know, it's two thirds the size of France, if not more, it's half or more the size of Germany. It's the largest geographical territory in all of Europe. So it's a really consequential country.
And it's, you know, what you're seeing is all these real people going through this real horrendous experience. It's.
It would be just like you and me, you know, living in Boulder, Colorado and having to like, you know, volunteer at checkpoints and learn how to shoot an AK47 and wear, you know, jungle camo and helmets and body armor. That is totally what's happening. And it is that surreal. And that is also part of the messaging to drive home.
And in that ensemble of characters, I grabbed a soldier that I'd worked with on my second trip in the summer. I was in a hospital in Pokrovsk, right, way out east, just outside the shelling. And his name was Max.
And he, you know, he's saying, this is our everyday experience. And you see that he's got a little baby. We went into his kitchen and he invited me in with our production team and which in part was Olga.
She really helped herself, you know, being a translator for us. And then, you know, we just get to see his life unveil. And right now I'm in touch with all these people, I'm even in touch with Commander Kurt.
And they're all out on the front lines and they're risking their lives. And I'm prepared to learn some bad news. Potentially just the way this has been heating up in the last few months.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:16:59.010 - 00:17:29.650
It'S so powerful when you show, you know, Rena, she's talking about, you know, when the war started, just everyday people were welding anti tank devices. They showed like wine bottles. People were collecting empty wine bottles, making Molotov cocktails, asking the police how to do that.
And she says, I would fight and die somewhere here if it was necessary.
When we see Pablo, you know, with his kids, talking about horror of having to raise a child in war, and there's a beautiful scene of a kid looking out the window. What hope is there for these people to survive and get their lives back?
Jordan Campbell
00:17:29.890 - 00:20:38.380
There is a lot of hope. And, you know, I have a lot of faith in this, in the sense that I think that over time, time is on Ukraine's side, not on Russia's side.
If, and that's the big if.
If we can continue as the west being the united, truly like alliance, in an alliance partnership with Europe, European Union, and really give Ukraine what it needs just to defend itself. That's all it's been doing from day one. And again, you know, there's so many myths we can get into and propaganda bullet points.
I've got these all scripted up in my head.
But, you know, fundamentally, yeah, if we can just give Ukraine what it needs to blunt an offensive like Russia's been putting together so miserably, and then combine it with sanctions and liberate the $300 billion in frozen Russian oligarch assets and start having those dollars pay for the artillery and the attack ems and the firepower that they need to push back on this monster. You know, it's a total illegal invasion. It's been going on from the beginning.
And that's another one of these myths, is somehow that this has been started by the west and it's a NATO expansion story. I mean, it couldn't be farther from the truth. And one of the things I would say, too, about it is just back to your point.
Like, this is unsustainable for Russia. They're, like, raging over 20% GDP. Wartime footage. They're having a great week or two. Let's agree with that. I mean, they're out in the world.
Putin is actually landed on our soil, which is beyond my wildest dreams that that could have ever happened. I won't even go down that rabbit hole or we'll spend the rest of the podcast on it. But that happened. I'll just say it that way.
This is their Vietnam in a sense. Like, if you were to take a sort of dark spin on it. But they're certainly their Afghanistan 2.0. And so how did that go for them in Afghanistan?
People say to me, like, well, they're eventually going to take Ukraine. That's not going to happen. I just do not see that happening at this. Especially.
There's so much international realignment than we have seen in ways that we have never seen, like Finland and Sweden joining NATO. These are enormous, huge reimagining of what Europe looks like and what NATO means to Europe.
And then there's, you know, unfortunately, there are these partnerships with China and now maybe India and certainly North Korea. I mean, you know, if you look at what happened to the Soviet Union because they were oppressed, and over time, they.
They completely collapsed under their own weight. And that liberated what became 16 countries which have all joined NATO. And those countries are not joining NATO because they're Scared of Norway.
They're joining NATO because their older boss, their sphere of influence was so outrageous.
Over a hundred million people were living in darkness while we were partying and listening to Madonna and Michael Jackson in the 1980s and making money on Wall Street. These guys had one TV and could smuggle in blue jeans into Bulgaria. I mean, it was a joke. So it had to come to an end.
So the history of the Soviet Union, a la Russia, is not hard to just go back quickly and understand that they invade and fail, and they do invade and occupy, and that does happen. And they can do that for a long time, but their long game doesn't work out. And in Afghanistan, they were squarely pushed out.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:47.050 - 00:21:06.970
We forget, I think especially, you know, those of who grew up in the Cold War, we think of the Soviet Union as just all Russia. They were just all Russians. When we had these very distinct ethnic minorities within the Soviet Union.
Ukrainians, Estonians, Kazakhs, you know, so there's something very different. And those people finally got, you know, in 1989, 1991, they were. They finally were liberated.
Jordan Campbell
00:21:07.210 - 00:25:59.250
Yeah, absolutely. When it all came crashing down, you know, you had a whole reimagining of what Europe looks like. I mean, we traveled to Eastern Europe all the time.
I mean, I. I love Eastern Europe. I'm really excited about Poland. I've spent a lot of time there because that's been my stepping off point to get into the country.
And the film is a story about war and resilience. And, you know, I'm a peaceful guy. Like, I. I don't even own guns and.
But as a journalist that wants to tell humanitarian stories, I felt this, like, incredible moral imperative to go in there and embed somehow with, like, humanitarian aid organizations. And that's what took me over there right at the first month of the war.
And I was there to report on what frontline medics were going through and what an injustice this was. And I didn't go over to make a film at first. If you want, I can quickly unpack that.
Then I went over embedded with an NGO called Global Outreach Doctors. And it was. It was the craziest thing I've ever done.
And I'd been to hotspots and I'd smuggled my, you know, my media in and out of Benghazi, and I went into the city center there and, you know, I did some really dangerous things with my camera. Probably the most dangerous thing I did in Benghazi was smuggling alcohol with my boss. That's story, you know, but anyway, that. That's that was.
But just because we were going to be there for a while, we thought we should have some scotch.
But by the time I, I got to the frontline area of Northern Key, right as they, the Bucha was being liberated, Ukraine was being liberated and you know, Cherni, all those northern oblasts were being liberated. I'd never seen anything like that in my whole life.
I mean it wasn't just, yes, I saw deceased people on the streets that had been, you know, had explosive wounds, but it was the number of blown up buildings and apartment buildings and smashed houses and artillery that had just hit cars and gunfire all the way around. Countless tanks incinerated, the vast majority of them being Russian all the way to the border of Belarus.
And when you saw that, you were just like, I'd never seen war like that. I didn't even know what it would look like. And that was just the beginning of what I would see more of across four total trips.
The second trip was in Pokrovsk. I went back. You know, the first trip was the most terrifying because Kiva just literally defended themselves from getting.
If they'd lost the airport, it might have gone differently, but they didn't.
They were able to just like literally people like just Joe Six Pack, you and me going out there and making it happen with territorial defense teams and with the, with the military and just standing their ground and losing so many civilians.
So many people died in Bucha and Borejonka and Viltoso blasts and then way out east, you know, all of it was, was unclear where the line was actually being formed of the war, if you will. And at that point we didn't know if like tanks would come storming across in some sort of blitzkrieg style invasion. To take Dnipro for example.
I don't think a lot of people knew what was safe and what wasn't. So it was a really scary nail biting time. And I filmed things. I filmed a lot.
I filmed a lot with my iPhone because it was not that easy or appropriate at times to film with a camera. And I didn't want to stress people out who were already totally stressed out. But I was in ambulances riding shotgun for, for days.
And then the second trip I was embedded in a military hospital right in Pocross but right outside of Donetsk. And so we were just outside the shelling.
The line of the, the war had become pretty clear and you kind of knew more or less what was being held by the Ukrainians at that point. But then I saw all the explosive wounds and all the soldiers coming in with massive wounds. And it was just. It was unbearable.
And I was shooting video for basically the same ngo.
And then I came back and I went to Washington, D.C. to the Parliamentary Security Intelligence Forum, which is long story how I got connected with this enormously international group of basically diplomats and parliamentarians that attended worldwide, right there at the Senate. And they just said, why don't you come back and maybe you can present something to us. Us. And there was. So I was like, yeah, I was thinking of that.
And then I thought, I just went to this Christmas party at the Ukraine House out that's kind of connected to the embassy there in Washington. And I bumped into Oksana Marco Rova, the ambassador to United States, just standing by the Christmas tree by herself.
And I said, you know, what are the chances? And I just said, wow, Ambassador Marco Rova, I've been to your country. I've been trying to, like, amplify your story. I can't believe what I'm seeing.
And I said, how can I help? And she said, you know, reach out to my office. And actually, I did. And she didn't really respond.
But it was till later when we did finally take the film to Washington and world premiere it there. But basically, yeah, I think that was the moment right in that window. And I was flying home. I said, I gotta go back. I've got to make a film.
And so I started with a GoFundMe page, and I left in February and went back, and it had been a full year. And that's when we opened up this long story. I got in touch with Olga, the main character, but that's how we got going.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:26:03.250 - 00:26:23.570
You know, to take a step back.
It seems kind of trivial to ask this now, but, you know, obviously this is a, you know, outdoor culture podcast, and you've had a long career in the outdoor industry as well.
Is there a way that your career in the outdoor space and as a mountaineer, did this prepare you for this type of work, to create this type of documentary in a war zone in a way that other filmmakers might not have?
Jordan Campbell
00:26:24.230 - 00:30:44.780
The first thing I would say is that I got interested in humanitarian work through international climbing, especially mountaineering and expeditions. My first expedition to the Himalayas was in 1992. Quickly dating myself. But, you know, it really. It really was a long time ago.
And it was back, especially when, you know, the world was not with GPSs and inreach and digital maps and iPhones. There sure wasn't social media.
I mean, I'd been dying to go to the Himalayas as a climber, you know, in since the 70s when I was a kid, you know, and it was all the expeditions that, you know, all of a sudden you're like in the backyards of all these amazing cultures. And I was in northern India on this trip to do a new route on a face climb.
I was way over my head in terms of like, you know, this is stuff that Jimmy Chin and Conrad Hanker would be stressed out doing. And anyway, you know, I always like, go big or go home. And so anyway, that trip was somewhat ill fated. We can dive into that if you want.
But fundamentally, like, I was trampling around in, in northern India and saw so many people who just didn't have access to healthcare, you know, and I was using, you know, the early, you know, clunky stuff from, you know, other brands and like the North Face. And that was the best you could buy back then for expeditions. But I mean, I was starting to work in that space right out of my university work.
But I went back 10 years later and climbed in Tibet on one of Marmots. It made me not the biggest expedition Marmot ever put together to do a new route on a peak that had never been climbed.
And we did, we, we, our team put two members on top and I got very close to going to the top and all that, but it was really not about that. That's what changed the game for me is we were in Tibet and two things happened.
I saw the occupation of the Chinese over the Tibetans and it just felt wrong in every category of my soul. And I could see that was unpleasant and icky.
And then beyond that, I also saw a lot of people that just didn't have access to basic healthcare services. And I think really at that moment I came back and I thought, you know, I just had a dream come true.
I got to go on Marmot's biggest sponsored expedition with Ace Cavalli and Carlos Bueller and all these, you know, Mark Newcomb. It was just really tremendous. But I really felt like the epiphany was I want to spend more time in humanitarian work and health and development.
And being in the outdoor industry was awesome because it was very international. So I got to meet people from around the world and, you know, we know what it's like. It's a very privileged space. It's a very amazing space to be in.
But you're looking at people who are really well traveled and seasoned, so I can have these kind of conversations. And here we are having this conversation and people get it on a Lot of levels.
But for me, I think it was just kind of like the hybrid of, like, my own personal mountaineering experiences, the goals I had, traveling internationally to rough places. I went to Nepal twice and did expeditions to, like, South America. So I saw a lot of different cultures all struggling to try to get their needs met.
And here I am kind of as a privileged white Westerner climber. And there's nothing wrong with that, but there is something that needs to be addressed in it. And so I felt some moral imperative along the journey.
And. And, you know, by 2005 is when I think I had really spent a few years working with Pete Athens at the North Face. And we.
We came up with our expedition to work with Dr. Jeff Tabin and do this cure blindness expedition with North Face. So that was literally 20 years ago.
And really after that, I mean, we're kind of after that 2002 Tibet expedition is when it all kicked in, and I just felt like I have to do this.
That expedition to Nepal in 2005 was really a kind of milestone where I was using my skills in marketing and communication and working with the media and then kind of working as a climber and working with North Face, who had been one of my employers at one point. And we really just.
We had this dream to go in with North Face athletes and work in remote eye camps with cataract surgeons and help people not just, like, tap, you know, for a half an afternoon. We were there for two weeks, you know, working day in, day out, and then we flew up and, you know, on a helicopter and tried to climb a peak.
And we did some people, some of it, but it was really more about just like philanthropy and what outdoor people can do, what athletes can do, what mountaineers and climbers can do. And I thought that was a really great message for its time.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:30:45.240 - 00:31:16.490
I think there is this idea that, like, oh, if we're in the outdoor industry, the outdoor world, we should only kind of stay in our lane, right? We'd just be about being affirmative, you know, just, oh, happy to be in the outdoors. Good smiling stuff.
But it really seems that the direction you've taken it is saying that we should be talking about, you know, these bigger issues and topics and having a greater understanding not just of the ecosystems we're visiting and the planet, but also of. Of people involved and people who've, both here in North America and in Asia, you know, have lived in these places for millennia.
Jordan Campbell
00:31:16.490 - 00:32:01.770
I absolutely agree, and I, I'm. I'm glad you brought that up, because if you've got a lot of listeners that are, you know, born and raised and or working in the outdoor industry.
It's a great space and there's been a lot of environmental activism in the outdoor industry and there's been a lot. And you've been part of it. Doug. I listen, you know, I pay attention enough. I'm not like completely distanced to it.
I mean I'm how, you know, I go to the your ice festivals and I still climb and ski, albeit not as much. But you know, I'm still connected with people doing a lot of great things and there's a lot of that matters deeply to me.
I've always felt like my story was really chasing humanitarian work. It's all tied to this international giant tribe of people who are mountain lovers and adventurers.
And that's how it at least it started for me and seems to be my story.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:05.530 - 00:32:20.710
I love that idea of humanitarian.
I know Peter Fouche, who is a medic in the film, who in the second half of the film you really spend a lot of time with out on the front lines, he calls himself a humanitarian first. You know, what does that mean? What is that? How do you become a humanitarian?
Jordan Campbell
00:32:20.790 - 00:32:30.630
Yeah, well you got me on one flat footed way there because you know, there is like a definition of a flat of a humanitarian and I don't have it up on my notes in case I got caught.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:30.630 - 00:32:31.950
Like what is it to you?
Jordan Campbell
00:32:31.950 - 00:35:55.700
Well, to me it's really simple. It's just operating, you know, with kindness and compassion towards everyone in your life and helping, truly reaching out and helping.
And I think where I've had that sort of imposter syndrome, even though I've done so much of this kind of work, is that I'll work with like I worked with Dr. Jeff Tabin and his team of cataract surgeons and they're like highly trained doctors and corneal surgeons and cataract surgeons and they're like doing the work and they're like doing this like God's work.
You know, they fix eyeballs and there's, they pull the patches off and the person hasn't seen in 15 years and I suddenly can see 2020 because they've just had a synthetic interlecular lens put in. I just was so impressed with that and I'm so amazed and I.
And you know, just the abilities that these doctors had and the amount of energy it took to just like work 12 straight hours, seven days back to back, I mean I would have died after the second day, you know, and then I Got on board with this cardiac group and they were doing pediatric cardiac work all over the Middle east. And that was transformational. I'd already worked in South Sudan with the cataract surgeons and I did a film there.
And that's maybe worth sharing, but the, you know, and so I'd worked in Nepal and in South Sudan working in cataract surgeries. But then I started working in Libya and Iraq and Lebanon with these pediatric cardiac surgeons.
And most of them, they were, it was a born out of North America, but they were all Eastern Europeans. And so I was kind of brought some more connection to Eastern Europe. And one of them was Ukrainian, another one was Belarusian.
He incidentally moved out of Belarus before it essentially got taken over by the firm hand of Russia.
You know, I was all in these countries watching and filming and documenting and writing articles for Men's Journal and National Geographic about open heart surgeons doing miraculous work in the developing world. It was even bigger story at that point because you're working with deep cuts out of the Middle East.
This is a story about like the impact of health diplomacy or soft power and how that would have downrange effects with those people who are, you know, families and grandparents that are bringing this little child that, you know, if they don't have an open heart surgical procedure done, the child's probably going to die.
And here comes a multinational team led by an American NGO working with the family for maybe up to a year and a half or two years in some cases to fix their baby. So that has a lot of impact. That has a lot of like social impact and capital. And I felt that was really an important story to tell.
So I would, I spent a lot of time and I was doing this while I was working for Marmot. By the end of it, it was as a director, you know, my boss would be like, well, you haven't taken any time off. You need to take some time off.
And I said, well, I'm going to go to Libya then. And he thought, you know, this guy's nuts. And I would, I mean, I was going all over. And then when I finally left, I. I went all over.
I went and did work in Northern Cameroon advocating for women's issues. And then I went to Colombia and did a story about sustainability. And then I did another couple projects.
One back in Nepal just doing a medical mission, and then another one in northern Guatemala. And then I went to Lebanon right after the explosion in the port and tried to document that. And that was all self funded in a lot of cases.
And then When Ukraine hit, I was like, okay, we're going all in.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:35:59.140 - 00:36:31.470
You hear about the incredible stuff you've done, you know, since Marmot, since working in the outdoor industry. And it does make it seem like, wow, what are we doing? You know, we're kind of wasting our time here. But I also love this thing you say in your bio.
You say that climbing mountains is the core of my spiritual life.
And I think that's a good reminder, too, that even if it seems unimportant, what we're doing, spending time in the outdoors and getting out there, it really is something that's essential to doing any work, to doing important work, to getting out there, to being something larger than us on the planet.
Jordan Campbell
00:36:31.550 - 00:38:24.490
I'm glad you brought that point back up, too, because I want to go back to something else. Yeah, I need to be outside, mountaineering, climbing, hiking. For me, a lot of it.
I love the backcountry skiing, even though I just kind of don't do it that hardcore. I just love. Just like all of us do, it resets us, and it's what I've done my whole life.
So, you know, on a personal note, I would say that after four, well, five total trips to Ukraine, but four of them, you know, really hardcore, trying to, like, get the stories and get this film brought back and started working on it, there was a point where I just kind of hit the wall. I had my own ptsd. I had my own mental health issues. Let's just be really frank.
I mean, it was really hard, and it was seeing and experiencing those things for so long and seeing just the sad. And it's not that people are dead or that missiles are hitting buildings. That's incredibly horrible, but it's the.
It's seeing the parents being separated from their kids at a bus station and things like that are. That are hard to describe to people. And I think some of that comes through in the film. But back to your point is the reset has been.
I haven't been back in almost two years now, and it's because I've been working on the film, getting it out in the world, and that's what I feel is my best use of time.
But also there's been time for me to kind of understand what I actually went through, but doing it has all been, like, processing it in the outdoors while I'm outside hiking every day or just backcountry skiing in the winter, just to kind of re. Calibrate, you know, my system to, like, something that feels normal. Because at one point, all I could do was just be in this war.
That's all I could do. It was more than I'd bargained for. And it still goes on. I mean, I'm, I'm on WhatsApp till sometimes one in the morning, checking in with people.
I'm always checking the headlines and finding out what's been hit. You know, I'm on deep state looking at the map all the time. It's, you know, it doesn't go away.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:38:24.810 - 00:38:37.290
Yeah, the reality is really there for you. You talk about the mountains, going to the mountains for healing and all that, but you also almost died in the mountains. Correct.
You had a horrible experience mountaineering where it's affected the rest of your life.
Jordan Campbell
00:38:37.530 - 00:41:00.670
Yeah. And I can just touch on that. And I think that also has kind of made me a little crazy to begin with maybe.
But what you're referring to is when I was in India in 1992 on the south face of Dali Sagar, our expedition, I had, without boring your listeners too much, I, I'd taken an anti malarial drug which had just come to market called methylquine hydrochloride or also known as larium. I was taking it unbeknownst to the dangers of that drug are now widely understood or much greater understanding is out there.
But at the time I was also probably taking double the milligram dose that you were supposed to because they were still essentially figuring it out as they went, as pharmaceutical companies often do. And I was having massive hallucinations while I was climbing at 20,000ft.
And I was essentially creating a chemical brain injury not because of the altitude, just because of the dosage.
And I don't think being at altitude helped, but it really affected me, my nervous system and I've had cognitive problems my whole life and chronic fatigue my whole life because of would be like taking, you know, mega doses of, you know, some kind of like hard drug for four months while you're climbing on an expedition without a lot of great fresh fruit or vegetables. And, you know, I was really sick throughout the 1990s.
And the reason it's valuable to bring it up is that I, I really was so ill that I think, you know, I was kind of like life really wasn't worth living and I went through a lot of suicidal ideations. I still work with that a little bit to this day and I still work with mental health challenges as a result of that.
That drug really, and it's pretty well documented and essentially creates, you know, sclerosis in the right and upper right and frontal lobes of your brain and you have. Sometimes it's like, it's like having Ms. I have bad days and I really shouldn't be out climbing at all.
That's why I've kind of stopped technical rock climbing. I mean, I'll do it, but I mean it's, it's not that safe often. So I have to be very mindful and very selective with how I go and with whom.
And yeah, that expedition changed me because then I saw what it was like for people to be really sick. And so there was a little bit of that humanitarian in me that wanted to help out, give back and, and because I was able to reclaim my life.
And it, it took the best part of the 1990s, the vast majority of it, to kind of get back to a sense of being normal.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:41:03.950 - 00:41:23.900
I think about, I was at Hemingway, say that life breaks us all in some way. Right. And Esau War, he was in, you know, on the front lines, you know, as an ambulance driver, kind of doing what you were doing in some way.
I guess being broken like that, going through that kind of darkness is a necessary part of life and necessary to help you do the work you're doing now.
Jordan Campbell
00:41:24.140 - 00:42:51.690
Yeah.
And you know, that experience climbing in the Himalayas, you know, not even knowing, by the way, what was happening with that drug, I didn't find out till like over a decade later what I was going through.
But being sick and then also risking a lot early in Life, I was 24 on that expedition and so I learned how to like, you know, not that I'm some like risk taking, you know, daredevil, but I mean, risk is like you basically do a risk assessment every day. You go backcountry skiing or hiking or, you know, or, you know, climb a Colorado 14 or you can get killed very easily.
For me, like, I'm like a curious survivalist, I think still here I've survived a few crazy, you know, life threatening experiences in the mountains and. But I'm pretty calculated. What I, I will say about Ukraine is it's so real and you have to be mentally prepared if you're going to go out east.
It's one thing to just get in the country and take the risk of being inside the borders of Ukraine, but, you know, getting out by the frontline area, you know, at this point especially, it is so serious.
The guy I embedded with, Peter Fouche, I was already set up to be with the frontline medical group out of Dnipro and running and out of Bach Mood and running and out of Constantinople.
But somebody Said, you should really check in with this South African guy because he's really the most connected, and he's doing some of the most important work out there with his group called Project Constantine. And so I was, you know, trying to figure out what to do, and I got on a call, and it's in the film, you know.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:42:51.690 - 00:42:54.050
Oh, yeah, yeah. This part of the movie. Yeah, yeah.
Jordan Campbell
00:42:54.460 - 00:43:40.330
And I call him up and I'm like. He's just got this intoxicating, like, South African accent, and he's like, we need you here, mate. You know, the whole. All the rest of it.
And I'm just like, who is this guy? And I just knew, like, if I do this, I'd better be ready. And it was just everything and then some more that I expected would happen.
And we were instant friends. And he just had that same passion. He saw the injustice of it. He saw what the Russians were doing.
He was screaming at the top of his lungs, trying to do his best, even on his social media platforms, to tell the world, like, hey, this is out of control. It's hardcore to talk about all these things. But, I mean, that's why in the film we reference sexual violence and we had to leave that in there.
The things that he says and I. I struggle with keeping that in there because it's so rough.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:40.330 - 00:43:44.370
I think it needs to be in there, doesn't it? It really does to know the truth of what's happening. Yeah.
Jordan Campbell
00:43:44.770 - 00:43:56.160
Just a sidebar. Shout out to my editor, Michael Herbiner. He's the one that pushed for that. And then we did a test screening.
He's had to go through ptsd, just going through all the clips that I've. That you. That didn't make the film, or the.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:56.160 - 00:43:56.560
Just the.
Jordan Campbell
00:43:56.560 - 00:46:37.460
The rough stuff that he got to see, or even the boring stuff, you know, it's just hard to see so much destruction. But it was Peter Fouche that really brought me in and said, you'll be all right with me.
And I think he had been out there already a lot, and he'd risked so much, but his threshold for risk was way high. And I thought, you know, I'd already risked a lot just being there in those hospitals and out in the front line.
And we did a crazy evacuation of 20 people at one point out of Slovians, the first trip. And I just thought, this is that day you could die. And you get into an ambulance and you drive out to the zero line area, and.
And now you're seeing, like, it will.
It was happening then, but just the Russians are targeting everything and they geolocate something with the drone and then they just fire a rocket right into it.
The difference between Peter Pushet and other frontline medics is he and his partner that were there were, were both, they carry guns, they carry AK47s and pistols and the whole bit. And I mean it just was wicked tense a few times.
And then that just the constant barrage of artillery coming into town Santinivka and the constant rockets and garage systems riot throughout the night through the area. And then the cluster bombs, which are the.
Is also really well documented in the film because, you know, they're just flying overhead dropping like 80 grenades over a residential stair area. This would be like any suburb in, you know, north Boulder or Littleton or something. It's just, it's totally surreal and of course it kills people.
And so if you're out like this guy that's in the film, he was probably walking his dog and the cluster bomb hit him and you know, that was it. We, we dived under a couple of trucks a few times. And big picture, you know, Peter was a total hero and I couldn't make up this guy if I tried.
And he became a really dear friend. And so even when I came back, before we finished the film, I'd already.
I brought a six minute teaser to the US Senate and we showed it there and he was thrilled for us. I did show him that. I was about to show him a rough cut of the film and then he was killed June 27th of 2024.
And he was swinging between being a humanitarian and actually joined the actual Ukrainian armed services armed forces. And they, because he was so talented, he was a sharpshooter, you marksman. As well as doing all the aid work. Peter was hit by two drones.
And it was just a gut punch to all of us. And so of course we dedicated the film to him.
But you know, I mean, how many Colorado films that do we have out there where the actual main character, or any film for that matter, I mean, about war, while we're still in the middle of a war, while the film is still being made, we lose the main character? I mean, I can't make it up.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:46:41.140 - 00:46:50.180
He saw the worst of it, right? And you're with him. What did he teach you about how to maintain your humanity in the middle of the worst that people can do to each other?
Jordan Campbell
00:46:50.740 - 00:50:31.210
The main thing that Peter taught me was just being professional in a really, really thorny, difficult place. And that, that being professional means kind of showing leadership, understanding that both he And I were from other countries. We're there to serve.
And the most important thing was just not to get in the way of that service and that you're there to support Ukraine and to, to be part of the solution and then the humanity part of it. I think you, you see it come through in, in how he speaks. I mean, he doesn't mince words.
There was those two sides of him, the total pro to the letter, kind of like I couldn't believe how sharp he would be.
And then there'd be this point where he'd be exhausted, or we'd gotten up at two in the morning to go do a switch out between the battalions and make sure everyone was safe. And then he would be exhausted.
And then he would just like, he went off, he goes off script kind of and just like loses his temper and says, you know, Russian genocidal maniacs. And in many ways, like, that's fine with me. I mean, that, that to me sums it up. So he was not mincing words.
And I think that's what made him so heroic to me too, is that he saw the injustice. He'd seen so many Ukrainians killed. He'd had many brothers and sisters killed.
His counterpart was a woman named Tatiana, and she had been killed nine months before. And I met her too. I interviewed her for the film. I interviewed four people and all four of them were killed.
It's very real that people die, you know, and I, I just, it breaks my heart. And I think the point of the film is not to just make people sad and cry.
It's maybe you'll see the injustice and have Peter's, you know, legacy live on and then understand that the day to day of the conflict is so severe. This is a conflict that needs to be taken very seriously. And now more than ever, it is not getting better.
It's getting more and more internationalized. It is really drawn lines.
And what you're seeing this week with Putin going and visiting China and holding hands with Modi, I mean, these are really big deals.
And if we're going to be an isolationist country and be very transactional with the world and walk and sort of forfeit our leadership position and let these kind of things happen where they weren't really before, I think we're going to be paying for it for a long time. But mostly the film needs to get people back. Like, one of the things I wanted to share was the idea with the film was to share long form journalism.
So it's not like 90 minutes of 20 days in Mariupol. And that director is, you know, my hero.
I mean, that those guys were two AP journalists stuck, right, being surrounded by the Russians, and they were both you Ukrainians, and they're smuggling out footage and it's unbearable to watch that movie. After 90 minutes of that, you're exhausted.
What I had was we don't have that story, but I have these people and their voices, and they're authentic and they're there to tell us something about this conflict. And they're there to show that resilience and to show the injustice.
And then there are these like, issues and threads to pull on, like child deportation, war crimes and sexual violence, you know, and, and just a general sense of, of, of what it's like to be there. And the idea with the film is like, here's something that is.
Got your attention for 40 minutes and this will make you understand and feel something, not just kind of, you know, blur your eyes. And I think most people have an interest in this subject in a big way, but it's so overwhelming, it's so exhausting.
People don't understand that Russia's been trying to do this to Ukraine for a hundred years. All these things are just like, it's very thorny, it's very complicated. But it's also really simple.
Russia just needs to leave the country they invaded and the war would be over.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:50:34.730 - 00:50:43.690
Let listeners know, you know, how they can see the film, how they can learn more about Ukraine and how they can get involved if that's something they want to do.
Jordan Campbell
00:50:44.010 - 00:52:08.560
The film will have some screenings here in Colorado, and maybe the better, best thing to do is have them in the show notes, if you, if you can list them.
We're also in dialogue with Rocky Mountain pbs, and I'm hoping that I'll have something I can announce maybe in the next month or six weeks about that. And in that case, we'd be able to reach 5 million eyeballs in just the Rocky Mountain region.
And maybe it would level up to other, you know, regions around the United States and maybe even at the national level. That is probably the best promise I could make at this point in terms of broadcast.
Otherwise, I'm trying to get it into more film festivals and trying to show it around, you know, in the United States at foreign policy shaping events, if you will. We world premiered in Washington and that was important. We may go take it back to Washington.
I'm trying to European premiere it at the Rome Senate building as well. So there's a lot of that.
But yeah, sit tight for, for your listeners and, and hopefully that would be the best way that they can watch the film in a broadcast sense and then on beyond that, we have a website called UkraineUnderfire.org, and that'll allow people to be, you know, engaged and see what's going on. I'll have more news to update or our team, our impact team, will and people can donate.
We're a 501c3 fiscally partnered charitable film project at this point and that's with the Common foundation there in Boulder, Colorado. And they've been fantastic to work with. That's how we keep it going as an advocacy piece.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:52:08.800 - 00:52:35.230
Well, Jordan, I can't thank you enough for the work you're doing and I'm for the world, for humanity truly, and putting yourself out there and the person you are. We have one last question for you, the final question for everyone on this podcast and I'm curious to know your answer.
After you've seen the worst that people can do, but also been involved in such great humanitarian work and it is simply what gives you hope?
Jordan Campbell
00:52:36.110 - 00:53:24.410
Well, it's kind of piggybacks on the very question itself. I think it's having faith. That's what gives me hope personally, and not just in myself, but like having faith in humanity.
We're in crazy, uncharted times in sort of the international space worldwide. And what gives me hope is cooler heads prevail. Sober thinking wins. Clear thinking, staying open minded and clear eyed, that gives me hope.
Having your listeners amplify the story, share the story and tell people, keep Ukraine in your thoughts and minds and have faith that this can come to an end just like a lot of all conflicts do. Eventually that would be my that's what gives me hope is that this can end. And just having faith in humanity as a general overarching thought.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:53:24.730 - 00:53:31.810
Jordan, again, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you even more for the work you're doing out in the world. It's great to see you.
Jordan Campbell
00:53:31.810 - 00:53:33.730
Yeah, it's been great. Thank you so much for having me.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:53:33.730 - 00:54:29.900
Doug, thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight llc.
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com learn more about Jordan Campbell and his work@ramroglobal.com and learn more about the film as well as where to see screenings@ukraineunderfire.org if you want to learn more about the current war in Ukraine, I suggest you read Yaroslav Trofimov. Outstanding. Our enemies will the Russian invasion and Ukraine's war of independence.
Embedded in the heart of the conflict since the start of the Russian invasion, the Ukrainian journalist delivers uncompromising reporting and larger context on the war. Our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some. Thanks for listening.
