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Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Doug Schnitzpahn joins the fray to talk about how the outdoor industry has lost it's way.
(Look at that 'poet and didn't even know it' type stuff here on THE ROCK FIGHT)
Doug is a journalist and the Editor In Chief for Elevation Outdoors and has been in and around the outdoor industry since the 1990's. He believes that the changes to the outdoor trade show scene that we've talked about a ton here on THE ROCK FIGHT have come with other consequences. Namely that there has been a 'de-centering' of our industry.
Today Doug sits with Colin and Producer Dave to talk about events, recreation, politics and getting our industry back on track.
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Episode Transcript
Colin (00:00):
Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head, I'm Colin True. And today we're taking a different look at how the shift in outdoor industry events has impacted the outdoor community. But first, please be sure to follow in rate the rock fight wherever you are listening. We need those ratings and we need those follows. A five star rating and clicking that follow button is the best way to support this show. And you can reach out to this show by emailing us, send your emails to My rock fight@gmail.com and then head over to rock fight.co and sign up for our newsletter by clicking join the mailing list. Alright, let's start the show.
Chris DeMakes (00:45):
Fight, fight, fight.
Colin (00:49):
We've talked a lot on the rock fight about our current trade show situation in the outdoor industry, but typically those conversations are focused more on the changes that have occurred with those events and how those changes have impacted the trade and commerce part of our industry. Recently I was chatting with journalists and publisher Doug Schnitt and he was reflecting on how the lack of a central event for the outdoor industry has sort of decent the industry for years. When we would gather an outdoor retailer, it would result in some level of unity about what was important to the industry as a whole and there would be accountability to what everyone was doing about those important topics when we'd gather again six months later. This is part of the conversation that gets lost when someone glibly tosses out there that we need to have more gatherings. Usually no one can articulate the real reason why they feel like we should be trying to get together beyond. Hey, it's great to see all of our industry friends. Doug has been in and around the world of outdoor recreation since the 1990s and he's here today to share some of his insights on where the industry has been and where it needs to go. Welcome back to the rock fight, where today it's trying to recenter the outdoor industry with Doug Schnitt Bond.
(02:01):
Alright, well we're here today with Doug Schnitt Bond, who's the editor in chief at Elevation Outdoors Magazine and founder of, I'm going to say it wrong now, artemesia Media and has been covering the outdoor industry and outdoor adventure stories for the past 25 years. Is that right, Doug? Has it been 25 years, Doug?
Doug (02:17):
It has been 25 years. Yeah,
Colin (02:19):
That's kind of crazy. When I was looking through your LinkedIn bio and stuff getting ready, I'm like, yeah, 99. You're an old timer now, man.
Doug (02:26):
It's crazy. Get old past
Colin (02:28):
The good old past. Oh my God. All right, well I started my industry career a little after you, but for the most part we have a similar timeline in the industry and from 99, pretty much through 2017, there seemed to be sort of a status quo in how the industry operated. There'd be trends and ebbs and flows, but there were also sort of a reliable cadence to things. And you and I chatted about this, it's one reason why you wanted to come on the show because we had two iterations of the same trade show, a fairly robust media scene, brands and retailers relatively consistent with things. And then in a pretty short of time we got a surge of direct to consumer initiatives, the Trump administration's, bears Ears fiasco, and then finally the pandemic that sort of took everything and just shook it over and Topp toppled it around. So when you look back on all this, just start at a big picture, how do you reflect back as a journalist on your arc over the past 25 years in the outdoor industry?
Doug (03:20):
Yeah, I think that's a really good question and I guess my time in the outdoor space dates back even before the outdoor industry because before I was working in magazines and journalism, I was doing environmental work and I was also, for six years I worked for the Forest Service building trails, fighting Fires, wilderness Ranger. But I think when I first came into the outdoor industry about the same time as you 25 years ago was sort of the golden age of this shit. I think at that time we had
Colin (03:53):
Is that true or was that just our age?
Doug (03:55):
No, I think it is true. I mean because you think about at the time, because internet was new, there was no social media, there was all this energy around, especially around kayaking. We had extreme kayaking where if you remember, you went to the show and the kayakers would be the king of the show. I think the Outdoor Retailer show was at its peak. Then when you would go and it was just this massive party I worked for hooked on the Outdoors magazine. We had Frank Black play at Salt Lake City for outdoor retailer, which was crazy. We had a cracker play and I hung out with David Lowry, I took him to find whiskey in Salt Lake City. People would be walking down the street. There were so many brands, new brands, they had to build out the Salt Palace to contain everyone. I think there was a lot of excitement centralized in one place. And I was thinking about this question too, and I think the biggest difference on a philosophical point too is that as I was saying 25 years ago, it was like extreme kayakers were king, right? Yeah. That was really the shit as well as extreme skiers, Macon,
Colin (05:04):
Whoever, climbers the whole
Doug (05:06):
Deal climber. Exactly. Everything was based on the extreme. The craziest biggest thing was really the face of the industry and aspirational where we're at. That's all anyone cared about sponsoring athletes. And now in a good way, I think we've come to an evolution where the industry has become more inclusive, not just demographically, but just to show that being outside can be doing anything, which it always was. It always was poking around in your local creek as a kid or whatever you did. So I think that's a really good transformation. We still have the extreme athletes. I saw Alex Honnold was a answer in the New York Times crossword this weekend, so that's still there. That's still part of it, but I do think in a good way we've opened up a lot more to think about outdoor industry as more this fabric of life thing from a bad way.
(05:59):
I think we've talked about this too. What we've seen is when the industry was so focused and so together, especially at Outdoor retailer, it seemed like everyone was working on the same page for causes that we all cared about for conservation, for sustainability, for inclusivity. And now I think what's happening, especially post covid, but I think it began before that too, is we're spiraling off into, if you look at the outdoor industry as brands, as commerce, all these brands wanting to be their own islands and do everything by themselves and there no longer is a national stage. There's no longer a great big gathering and a great big voice even when we're splintered into everyone kind of being their own voice.
Colin (06:46):
I think that's a really interesting point because ever since first the move the show of outdoor retailer to Denver and then as it kind of started to die off over the last few years with the pandemic and been tough to come back, you hear consist like, oh man, we need to have it back. We need to have it back. And from an absolute just business perspective, it's really hard to say, yeah, we do because business is getting done right? It's like it isn't The trade and commerce part of it, which what the show was founded on, it's called Outdoor Retailer, this isn't the big outdoor show or something like that, it's outdoor retailer. Those things have been relatively solved with technology and the way we go about our business. So we don't necessarily need it you and if that's the foundation of what the show was, we don't necessarily need it anymore.
(07:31):
But you're right. What else do we lose? I mean definitely I think if you can look at the show and objectively say it kind of got high, big in fat and probably bigger than maybe even it should have, but to your point, all of these other things then were brought into the fray. I mean the conservation piece, all the politics even that would show up and everybody would be together for the opening breakfast on some topic that we all were told, this is what we're caring about now. And we kind of took those lessons back to our brands or businesses we worked with. And when you look at how it all shakes out and where we end up, that is now the missing piece. That is the stuff we don't talk about. I look a lot, every brand now has their own secondhand shop, like their own secondhand version or to kind of check that box. You wonder, well, if we were all sitting in the same room twice a year, would there be some sort of drive to how do we coalesce that around into a new marketplace or something like that? I, I'm pulling that one out of my ass. I dunno if that's something that would actually happen, but you know what I mean? We lost our high school reunion that happened twice a year and what did we ultimately lose because of it? And it wasn't really the commerce piece
Doug (08:36):
And I think people are trying, the outside festival are trying to bring people together. There's a bunch of different efforts to bring things together. I dunno, I know more about the history of outdoor retailer than I ever thought I'd want to. The first time I went I was just thought I was there for a job, whatever. But it started as a bunch of guys who were pretty passionate climbers in some hotel rooms selling stuff, Avan, k Claus, Obermeyer, they drove around awesome. They were just dirt bags who were just supporting the habit by selling stuff. So they started selling stuff and as they started building this show into more of an industry, into more commerce and bringing other brands in I think who were tangential to say climbing or something as that happened, I think we all had the idea that hey, what we're doing, we don't want to just be another kind of business.
(09:25):
We want to be a business with really high ethics and that can do more than business. So I think as the show evolved from hotel rooms or whatever it was in Reno and Vegas as it moved into Salt Lake, as the show evolved, as a business gathering along with it, this really advocacy aspect grew and it's why we're all, it would be great when other people from other industries would come to Outdoor Retailer and they'd be, this is incredible. This isn't like any trade show I go to. So it was all something we wanted. I mean obviously we all want to make money too. We all want to be successful and secure and take care of our family. So it's important to have that business part too. So I think as the show evolved, that advocacy part became more and more important. Like you were saying, the opening Breakfast Conservation Alliance breakfast, I mean I remember Terry Tempus Williams bringing everyone to tears talking about Rwanda, the Conservation Alliance breakfast and that kind of commitment that everyone put in every booth had a fundraiser for it. I think also it was great because, well on two aspects, the Big Central show was really great for these small brands that would show up like Cloud Veil first showed up at the show having one little booth and the softshell idea which blossomed and grew,
Colin (10:46):
Pour a little out for Cloud Veil, maybe the most talked about brand in the history of the industry that I don't even know if I even owned any cloud veil at any point.
Doug (10:56):
Yeah, right. Which Steven, now he's got stio, which is interesting, right? Yeah. And Keen, I remember being at the, when Keen was at the first show and Martin Keene had his one ugly ass shoe and I'm like the next show, the next show there were more people and there was a booth with all this soul material on the booth and the next show it was massive and Martin Keenan wasn't even there anymore. So these small brands, so these small brands got a chance to grow, which was really cool. It was like this incubator, but even more important I think, and what I was seeing more and more recently was it was really becoming a place where people with small voices and big ideas had a chance to get out of the mainstream and get in front of someone. People working for diversity, people working for boundary waters or some small conservation costs.
(11:43):
They would be able to get there and get a lot of attention and take center stage and I think that was really important and losing that is really sad now. We saw trade shows, you said you went out to a retailer, it's still a good show, it's a good show for small brands, but it's nothing. I mean it's sad when you go to Salt Lake and remember just being crowds of people. I remember hooking up with this group of people from VU who was just walking down the sidewalk and we're like, come go to this party with us, and that's all gone. It doesn't have that aspect anymore.
Colin (12:16):
Yeah, you can kind of question. I mean it is kind of the weird thing about the space. We talk a lot about it on the show because of this is an industry billion dollar, let's call it a billion dollar industry. The trillion dollar number that gets thrown around is the larger sort of outdoor, entire outdoor world. But the human power industry that we talk about the most here on the rock fight is more of a billion dollar industry, so billions of dollars that is related to something that is incredibly passionate and the work that needs to go in on the more social side to maintain the health of what we build a billion dollar industry on top of. And so that's why it's always, I think, a fascinating thing and that's why I feel like you can easily be critical of brands. It's like, well on one hand if a brand isn't breaking any laws and they're polluting a river when they're making something, it's like, what do you do?
(13:05):
But it's like, yeah, but you're an outdoor brand. You need to care. You need to care because the people you're selling to, they care. So that's why these conversations I think are always going to be super fascinating, but when it goes back to was it almost it built all up on the back of trade? I mean should it have, I mean at some point should the more social aspect of it pulled off because now the trade piece of a change and now we don't have a home for the more social conversations that we used to have twice a year
Doug (13:31):
And that is a really good and difficult, I mean that's a basic massive economic question. I dunno. I think it does benefit everyone when some type of responsible commerce can go hand in hand with issues that matter, right? I spent a lot of time in Scandinavia, I was a judge on the Scandinavian outdoor awards, that kind of stuff, and these Scandinavian brands, they just do it as the way they should do business as the right thing to do. They don't think about doing it to try to sell to consumers. They don't think about doing it for any other reason except that it's really the right thing to do with the fabric of what you're doing and that makes sense. If you love the outdoors, you don't want to create a brand that's destroying things. So yeah, good question. Should those two things have been tied together?
(14:19):
I mean think so. Another reason why they should be tied together is I think it really would put brands' feet to the fire being together like that. In that big community you kind of have to live up to what you're saying and what everyone else is doing as opposed to when everyone's on their own little island, you can put out your own messaging and say what you do, but you're not held to the fire in the same kind of way. I think when it comes to inclusivity and diversity as well, it's a lot easier to hide when you're not all there in one place.
Producer Dave (14:53):
Colin, before we move on to that, I think what we're bringing up is a larger issue than outdoor is that is business more than a transactional commodity, and I think that's what he was alluding to earlier, this idea that the outdoor industry has always had a different sense of itself. It was founded by people that was just trying to fuel their dirtbag lifestyle, making products that didn't exist. It's always attracted people who not only were good at their business life, but also had this outdoor life that you couldn't separate the two and outdoor retailer or the central shows at that time was bringing all of those pieces together. And what we have lost is that second, and I would say the conservation efforts, the soul of the industry are related to the same kind of forces of the people who identify and love to be outside. You put those together. That's the other side of the coin, and I would've to wonder if the addition or the valence of venture capital of consolidation, these type of forces really are at the heart of why we don't have not just a central meeting point as a show, but just why these values of our brand seem to be diminishing or dissipating. Just as a thought that this is more of an existential question for our industry than even just a nuts and bolts of will a show return to its form?
Colin (16:35):
Oh, I wasn't even thinking about the show return to, but it's just like if the platform's important to regain and what is the right form that that should take, knowing that the trade show scene is changing and that people are bringing new shows up and is like, will
Producer Dave (16:52):
It come back? But does the industry have to ask itself, does it want, what does it want of itself? Well, what does it want before you can tell if there's a platform for it
Doug (17:01):
And we could also serve as a guide for other brands and other industries that you can do this
Colin (17:07):
And success. Well, I've said that. Yeah,
Doug (17:08):
Yeah.
Colin (17:09):
We should be held up as an example of this is how you do it.
Doug (17:14):
Then
Colin (17:14):
You go to REI and you see this is a green jacket and it has one fiber in it that was recycled.
Producer Dave (17:21):
It actually has a green fiber in it. That's it. I believe that's right. Well,
Colin (17:26):
It's green. See? It's green.
Doug (17:27):
Yeah. Yeah. And here's the thing, people, consumers, there are a few odd crazy consumers who would drive you nuts and how do you about it, who really care about sustainability, but for most people it's just added value. Most people are like, what's the price? How does it look on me? What need do I have it? Oh, it's sustainable. That's great. So you have to do it. You're not doing it as a selling point, you're doing it. It's the right thing to do. Do
Colin (17:49):
You see
Producer Dave (17:50):
Changing at all? I was going to say, do you see any of those forces moving in the other direction similar to what you were talking about being in Scandinavia?
Doug (17:59):
I always thought when I did wilderness ranger work, I was working for the forest service and I came straight from, I had done a K noles course. I was so agro leave no trace. I would find Cairns, I would rip them down. I destroyed so many lakeside campsites, that kind of stuff. And then I went to this wilderness Ranger rendezvous, they, it was held somewhere in Montana and I don't remember where. It was awesome. As wilderness rangers from all over the country got together to discuss ideas, and I remember this woman spoke from Rainier from Rainier National Park, and her big thing is people do what's easy, obvious, and convenient. She was like, it was a good easy place to cut the switch back in the trail. They're going to do it every time. If there's a good campsite in the lake, no matter how many times you rip it up, they're going to go and go back to it. Granted, I would put pungy sticks and make it really hard for people to do some. No, no, not really. Geez, man, we can make it really hard. Do we need
Colin (18:55):
To call the police?
Producer Dave (18:57):
They know about him.
Doug (19:00):
There's a good sideways story from a New Jersey boy. The first time I started working, I grew up in New Jersey, New York, went to school in Boston. The first time I started working for the Forest Service in Montana, we were driving. I had no idea on the East Coast, if you're a government worker, that's a good thing or it's honorable to work for the government. I didn't know this western idea, especially in the early nineties of hating the go. So we're driving this, I'm with this guy my first kind of day. We're driving down this dirt road and some truck's coming down with us and the guy has his hand out the window giving us the bird, and I come by and I'm like, fuck you. I give him the finger back and the guy next to me is just freaking out this Montana boy. He's like, you can't do that. You're in a government rig. You can't do that. I was like, yes I can. I'm from New Jersey. That guy can't go by. I don't care what rig I'm in. Anyway,
Colin (19:51):
And that's how Doug lost his leg later that day. That's right.
Producer Dave (19:56):
Why they call him lefty.
Colin (19:58):
Lefty, yeah, right.
Doug (20:01):
Hey, lucky Craig is one of my favorite people ever. But going back to that easy, obvious and convenient thing, what I love about that is I think that also applies to sustainability, totally making better brands. It is really hard to get people to change behavior, but you change, if you make it an easy way for people to do things that are more sustainable or better for the world, they're going to do it. So I think that's always the better path to do is not make them have to, when it comes to a buying decision, it doesn't have to be a hard buying decision. It needs to be an easy buying decision. It needs to be an easy path to go down to help them to be that way is a good way to make things happen. I was thinking before we were talking about making changes and Eric Reynolds, who was the founder of Marmite and then Sweetwater now and now he's the appellate stoves in Rwanda, but when I first met him, he was on this mission to get an amendment in the US constitution that every brand or every corporate charter had to have the phrase to do no harm in it, which I thought was wildly idealistic but also incredibly beautiful and unfortunately never happened.
(21:13):
But I do think about now the brand that they had, which was an incredibly forward thinking brand that was going to be sustainable, that was going to change the world. The only thing was it was really hard to buy stuff from that. If you went and bought it from the store, you couldn't take it home. You had to buy it from a kiosk. So it was kind of breaking that rule of doing something that's easy, obvious, and convenient so people just wouldn't do it.
Colin (21:37):
Not to turn it around on Patagonia, but that do not harm. I loved, I always loved the no unnecessary harm. That's sort of their mantra before they went into we're in business to save our home planet, which I feel like that's just, what does that mean? Before it was just like, listen, we're acknowledging we're making things and there's going to be some mark where we're going to do the best we can with and how we do that. I just felt very honest and pure and yeah, I'm on board with that. I get it. And now it's just like, oh, we're going to save the planet. It's like, okay, settle down. I love that. I wish that had happened. I wish that never could have happened, but I wish it would've happened. That was a great suggestion. But, and I think too, as we kind of look ahead and maybe this pivot, we pivot into some of the things you're doing over at Elevation Outdoors, some of the articles you're publishing over there, we talked about it's this integration of wild places and our experiences with a consumer goods industry that makes it sort of an interesting thing that we talk about when it comes to the industry, but it's still for a long time politics, I dunno, I always felt like they were kind of kept at arm's length unless you were a Patagonia who was comfortable wading into those waters.
(22:45):
But then lately you guys have been dipping your toe in, right? You've got an Elevation outdoors. You've got articles about Caroline Gly who's running for US Senate in Utah as a Democrat. Then you had a q and a with Caroline by Drew Simmons. You also featured a piece by Luis Benitez about how candidates for office are missing an opportunity to attract voters from both sides of the aisles when it comes to the outdoors. I mean from your purview, I mean, is it time just for the outdoors to go all in on politics?
Doug (23:10):
Yes, but I think we always have too, right? I mean, I think we're always there to defend what we care about most. So I think it's always built in, I think outdoors, going into partisan politics is never going to work, right? That's just going to piss people off. That's going to isolate people. People obviously feel stronger than ever, but don't think, I think it is a mistake to get too deep into partisan politics, but getting to the politics of what the outdoor industry needs is really important. And I think Luis says that in his piece in Elevation too, that he thinks that a director of outdoor recreation department nationally is a nonpartisan ideal. Everyone loves the outdoors. So I think it is a nonpartisan politics that we can get into the outdoors, I think, and everyone, hopefully in all parties is seeing more and more the effect of human works and industry on a vastly shrinking world, and I think that makes a difference. Like I said, I feel like when I first moved to Montana early nineties, there was a really different vibe. The Western states were a lot more isolated, and that isolation is gone now with Covid flight, with work from home, working remotely. It's just a different world out there now, and I think people on all sides of a political aisle are seeing how important it is to preserve what little we have left and has so much pressure on it right now
Colin (24:45):
In the offices of Recreation. I think that's the one that I keep coming back to. And I know I've talked about it probably a bunch over the last year or so on this show, because if you look at just the basic problems with having all of this rely on a trade event or just an economic driven sort of event like out in an outdoor retailer or a trade show, and when you're trying to say, well, we have all these other things that we want to talk about. It's like, well, some people just want to come as they want to book orders, they want to see product. And you have these individual offices of outdoor recreation that are now holding their own economy conferences, but we don't have a national presence. And there are still several big states like California and stuff that doesn't have one of these offices, but you look at what it can be and there could actually be a trade component to some of them as well. You could have brands like local brands and participants who care about that part of it, but then you also, it's a natural place for four politicians to show up and for trail advocates and outdoor advocates to show up. It just sort of seems to check all the boxes of how we get back, what we've lost and some of the things like you talked about at the beginning of the show, but very few of the problems that you have by putting that on a trade event. Do you see that as a path forward?
Doug (25:57):
Oh yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. Having the government, having it be a government or a state thing is a great idea where it can bring everyone together as we do for other industries. We can look out for industries and help 'em because it or not, we need to make money. We need to support our families and do things. It's an expensive world and until things change in different ways, we have to do that. So we have these brands that can do that sustainably. We've got recreation. I think the outdoor industry is having a tough time now because they're inventory problems and people bought all the crap they needed during Covid and don't need to buy it now, but they're still out there, right? They're still recreating. So I think it's more important than ever to bring in a lot of the advocacy stuff. We've got all these new people out to places that once were more isolated, they're putting a lot of pressure.
(26:49):
Every trailhead you go to has more pressure on it now than it ever did. You need reservations and parks like you never did before. I was in Zion earlier this summer and it was insane how many people were there hiking the narrows. I couldn't even get a permit to go hike Angels Landing. So there's more pressure than ever. So I think it is more important than ever that we look at recreation as a major part of our economic and social fabric, outdoor recreation, and see how we can better support the people who are in the industry as well as create better advocacy for the places that are being used.
Colin (27:30):
When you print stories in Elevation Outdoors, whether it's the interview with Caroline or the coverage from Louise, do you get reader feedback? I mean, are we even right now talking about the things that your readers are thinking about or is it resonating with?
Doug (27:46):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think there's this stuff people want to, people who are involved. There's not a whole lot of voices out there anymore for the outdoor community. There's a lot of social media voices that are great or whatever, but they don't bring things together in that same way. And yeah, I think it is exactly what people want to hear, especially for Elevation. We're a little more local, Colorado and Wyoming, Utah, New Mexico. So when we have a story about how rivers are being managed about this new toll trail, this trail that's going to go from Boulder over to Winter Park, this kind of stuff, people really want to get information on outdoor policy for sure. And right now, I think outdoor politics is even more important. That's what I wrote about. I think in the piece I wrote about Caroline too, my editor's letter of her being a new kind of candidate, I think we're going to right now, it seems weird.
(28:42):
She popped up, she had a great opportunity, she had an opportunity no one else wanted, and she was brave enough to hop up there and take it right and run for Senate, which is wild, being nothing more than a ski mountaineer and an advocate. But I think that's beautiful, and I think we're going to see more and more of that happen because more and more of us look at, there was that meme going around that Tim Waltz was an REI hire, right? So I think as more and more get older and become politically involved, we're going to see the outdoor industry fabric be more and more important to candidates, to politics, to our lifestyle because it really is a part of what we all do. Outdoor recreation is such a major part of what we all do now. It's not just some, as we were talking about earlier in the show, right? We were like 25 years ago. It was like, ah, the extreme. The extreme. It's no longer extreme. It's part of what we all do. And I think that's great because that's also going to engender a greater responsibility for the planet
Colin (29:39):
As a journalist. And as someone who's publishes a magazine, do you feel increasingly alone to talk about these topics? Is there a bit of a third rail in outdoor media to go there on some of these things? It feels just anecdotally anyway, it's like it's either inspirational stories, tragic stories or gear stories kind of like, and that's always been the case, but it also felt like there was a time when outdoor media would look to go there and talk about things that maybe made people uncomfortable. Does that stack up with you or do you feel it feels, is it kind of the same as it's always been from where you're sitting? I
Doug (30:11):
Mean, I think, as I said, as outdoor recreation becomes more of what people do, I think we can go broader and broader what we do. I've always thought of Elevation Outdoors as a lifestyle magazine too. We cover beer, we cover music. What we are supposed to be is for someone who lives in Denver, heads out to the mountains, goes to festivals, likes good beer, kombucha, whatever it is they like, but it's more than just a trail guide, more than just some kind of outdoor niche. So maybe that's always been the idea is that this is about a lifestyle that more and more of us are really born into, and it's part of who we are. Does that make sense?
Colin (30:52):
It does. I just go wonder, do we have too many the top five hiking boots to wear on your local trails articles and not enough Caroline Go's profiles in outdoor media? You know what I mean? Yeah,
Doug (31:03):
I think so. What is, we don't have a whole lot of outdoor media left anymore. What is, well, that
Colin (31:07):
Could be part of the problem,
Doug (31:10):
But I think it's important to always, it's integrating more. And that's the great thing about Caroline too, right? And it was interesting. Where was it Vox maybe, or maybe it was New York Times picked up on her. They were more interested in her as an influencer, which was interesting. That was the big thing, that she was an influencer. Less so that she's, what she's influencing for all the time really is for inclusivity in the outdoors, is for how the outdoors creates a certain vulnerability, which I think is something really beautiful in what she's doing. Yeah.
Colin (31:43):
Alright, we can start wrapping it up, but I guess the last big picture question is recreation truly the answer to all of these things when you look at it kind of as a broad all we're talking about, we're talking politics, we're talking about conservation recreation, we're talking about trade. How does it, you boil it all down? Is this the answer to all of the problems that we face as outdoor and nature enthusiasts?
Doug (32:08):
I think we were talking outdoor recreation. As I said, it's a use, right? It is an impact. It's not the answer for the outdoors. It's still just fulfilling a human desire to be out there, to make money off it, to use it. Where what I think, I hope that we all hold in common, everyone in the outdoor industry from different political standpoints, from different users, is a respect and a feeling we get when we're outdoors. That goes beyond any kind of use or anything that's within us. And I really, I think that hooks back to politics here where there's this, our Boulder City council member, Tisha Adams, ran with this idea that she is really interested in making Boulder a center for outdoor business, outdoor community, this infrastructure tourism. At the same time, when she started Launch Star campaign, she talked about the right for water and land to exist for themselves to have a value on themselves. And she's been talking to me a lot about what's called the Green Amendment. You guys know about the Green Amendment?
(33:15):
This is an idea and there's a movement to put these green amendments in state constitutions across the nation, much like the outdoor recreation. And according to the Green Amendment's mission statement, a Green Amendment establishes a constitutional mandate recognizing a healthy environment as inherent indefeasible, generational, legal right of all citizens. So basically saying that the right to clean air, clean water, and land are basics of our liberties for people. They're also basic not to give land and water a personhood, but there's also this idea that there're also things we need to protect. And I'm a big fan of EO Wilson, the biologist, EO Wilson, who came up with the idea of half Earth that we're going to have to preserve half of this earth for the other species we share it with, which seems pretty fair considering we're one species and there's millions of other things of the Fed on this earth.
(34:11):
I think we're going to see a movement towards this. I think as we get more candidates like Carolyn Glitch in office, more people who really care about the outdoors, we're going to see an evolution of our laws even of how we care about the outdoors. We're going to see water, land, wildlife, ecosystems legally respected in a way they haven't been before in a way that might annoy some people who only care about recreation, right? Because they're going to say that these places have a right to exist beyond recreation, which is going to be a tough battle, I think, at that point too.
Colin (34:46):
Doug, thanks so much for coming on Appreci. Appreciate it and we'll definitely have you on again soon.
Doug (34:51):
Awesome. Loved it.
Colin (34:53):
Alright, that's the show for today. Big thanks to my guest, duck Schitz Bon. You can find his work by heading to elevation outdoors.com. Send your thoughts on this episode and every episode of The Rock. Fight to my rock, fight@gmail.com. The Rock Fight is a production of rock Fight LLC. Today's episode was produced by David Kasad with Art Direction provided by Sarah. I'm Colin. True. Thank you for listening and here to take us out. It's the voice of the Rock Fight Podcast Network Krista makes with the Rock Fight Fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters
Chris DeMakes (35:32):
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