River Time: Reclaiming Your Place In The World
- colin7931
- 2 days ago
- 41 min read
Today Doug opens the container with author and river guide Bridget Crocker.
Doug opens the show describing the magic of river time. The feeling when one goes on a river trip and the confines of our modern lives go out the window. Where the simplicity and routine of the tasks required on the river take over and how this is especially true for those with ADHD.
Doug is then joined by Bridget Crocker, a renowned river guide and author of The River’s Daughter; which is available to the public on the same day this episode comes out.
Bridget shares her insights on how navigating rivers can serve as a metaphor for personal growth and healing from trauma. She recounts the lessons she learned from a life on the river and the learnings it provided her as she navigated her own family trauma and subsequent healing.
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Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:03.120 - 00:05:10.850
Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzspahn. I'm a journalist, writer, and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I have kayaked alongside beluga whales.
On this podcast, we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Let's get some My favorite thing about going on a river trip is slipping into river time.
You put away the watch, you tell time only by the rhythms of the day, where the sun is in the sky, how your body feels. It's a wonderful thing to fall into. You eat at more regular times.
Your mind focuses on what's in front of you, unloading the boat, setting up camp, scouting rapids, moving the oars through the water. It's an essential experience for those of us who suffer from adhd.
Without the distractions of screens, deadlines and clocks, we find the space to thrive out here. You react, you breathe, you take your time, you get the job done.
And throughout it all, the overriding controller of how you live is simply the flow of water, never ceasing, calming in its consistency, beautiful in the song you can almost hear if you listen closely enough as it moves.
When I'm out on a great river like the Colorado through the Grand Canyon or the Owyhee through desolate sagebrush steppes with cliffs of rhyolite formed from the first eruption of the Yellowstone hotspot rising on either side, I feel a sense of the eternal. And I think about how our conception of time is limited by how we measure it.
It's important to go on a river trip, to experience time in this way, as a function only of how you live and observe. We are not meant to live in a binary world.
Much of our distress comes from being forced to conform to screens and devices that are supposed to make our lives easier but instead leave us less happy, chained more tightly to our ever scrolling routine that takes us farther and farther from nature. So I suggest take a river trip when you can.
You can feel a similar rhythm on a backpacking trip or climbing adventure, but there's something unique about returning to the water each day, this moving source that carries you forward. It's an easy metaphor for life. Of course, Heraclitus knew that river guides know it.
In the book Siddhartha, Hermann Hesse wrote of Gautama Buddha becoming not a God but a person, finally finding enlightenment.
As a simple river keeper, he says, have you also learned that secret from the river, that there is no such thing as time that the river is everywhere at the same time. At the source and at the mouth, at the waterfall, at the ferry, at the current, in the ocean and in the mountains. Everywhere.
And that the present only exists for it, not the shadow of the past or the shadow of the future. It's a metaphor, yes, but one that we need.
One of the greatest moments of my life was sitting in a small pack raft floating down the immensity of the Colorado river in the Grand Canyon in utter silence. It has stayed with me and comes back to me.
When we feel that sense of the eternal, we become better able to return and function within a world constrained by the limits of technology and jobs. But it's always good to remember what's out there, that we can always return to the flowing of water, to the peace the river gives us.
Because the eternal is the only thing we truly have to offer. Our solace and all the other noise and production in our lives do not. My guest today understands river time and the healing power of rivers.
A leading whitewater expert, Bridget Crocker has guided expeditions down many of the world's greatest river canyons. Her work has been featured in Outside Men's Journal and National Geographic Adventure magazines, among others.
And she's a contributor at Patagonia, Lonely Planet, and the best women's travel writing.
Her new book, the River's Daughter, has been called a powerful narrative of resilience and self discovery, navigating the tumult of family upheaval and personal trauma by author Adrienne Brodeur. And it is a must read for those of us who have spent time on rivers and who have found healing in the wild.
Now let's open the container with Bridget Crocker. Okay. And today we are opening the container with Bridget Crocker, the author of the River's Daughter, an incredible book that is coming out on.
What's the exact date we're coming out?
Bridget Crocker
00:05:10.850 - 00:05:12.330
June 3rd is our pub date.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:05:12.810 - 00:05:16.490
Fantastic. And look for that. And where can people find it?
Bridget Crocker
00:05:16.730 - 00:05:21.370
Anywhere you buy books. But hopefully you're going to buy books from your local independent bookseller.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:05:21.690 - 00:05:22.410
That's right.
Bridget Crocker
00:05:23.060 - 00:05:25.140
Or bookshop.org is a great place, too.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:05:25.220 - 00:05:47.300
Yeah. Anyway, I'm extremely excited to have Bridget here. I've been trying to get together with her for a long time to have this conversation.
And I'd like to throw a kind of good, fast pitch for you to start the interview. And wanted to ask you something that's prominent in the book, I think. But do rivers really speak to you.
Bridget Crocker
00:05:48.830 - 00:05:51.950
Like in a voice or speak to Me, metaphorically.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:05:53.070 - 00:05:54.030
Both. Both.
Bridget Crocker
00:05:54.430 - 00:08:00.130
Okay. Well, certainly, you know, capture my imagination and have since I was very young.
I grew up in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, on the banks of the Snake river south of town. And I spent a lot of time, you know, just with the river and finding solace and refuge from a troubled childhood on the banks of the river.
And it's a place where I went to be nurtured and just to kind of reset. It was and still is the place where I go to reset my nervous system. And I also am from a long line of people with adhd, which I think is interesting.
Talking in an outdoor industry podcast. I've long said that most river guides have adhd.
Like, it's kind of a prerequisite to be successful on the river because you have so many things coming at you so quickly all the time. You have to be able to take that all in. And growing up the way I did in such chaos, I learned to be hypervigilant at a young age.
And my nervous system developed in a way where it was like, highly attuned to a lot of different input then. I also genetically am predisposed to adhd.
One of the other great benefits, aside from being able to really multitask in a natural environment, is that the ability to hyper focus and get into a deep state. I do that when I'm writing and I also do that when I'm on the river and next to it.
As a kid, when I get in that hyper focused state, I am able to blend into my environment in such a way that I become the environment. And so it is speaking to me. It's like in my imagination. It's. Sometimes it is.
I can hear a voice sometimes, but often it's just like a very intense awareness, you know, a thought, and it kind of vibrates in my whole body.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:08:01.170 - 00:08:14.840
Yeah. And I don't think it's a. I don't think it's like a hearing voices thing. Right. A crazy thing. I know I certainly hear rivers sing.
I've slept by the banks of rivers before, and it's almost like you hear this music or singing or sound in the background. Right?
Bridget Crocker
00:08:15.640 - 00:08:36.280
Yeah.
And also, just as somebody with a highly attuned nervous system, almost like a clairsentience, like I can feel the energy of people, you know, very intensely. And also of natural beings, you know, trees, rivers. It does. It's not just limited to rivers, it's to all creatures and beings.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:08:36.760 - 00:08:45.970
Yeah. And I think what you say about ADHD is really interesting too. I know I've been Told I have it and I'm. I guess I'm not surprised, but.
And as you said, most outcome.
Bridget Crocker
00:08:45.970 - 00:08:49.490
I bet that 90% of the people listening right now are like, yeah, me too.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:08:51.570 - 00:09:26.200
I guarantee you're right. And hopefully they'll make it all the way through. And I do think that. I do think it's interesting. Right.
Like, we're probably, those of us with ADHD are probably not programmed to sit in front of a computer or do the office work or that we're more programmed to deal with sudden challenges that you have to face. Being a river guide, working in the outdoors, being an emt, as I was. Right.
Like, in some way, we're more attuned to these things that we used to have to do as human beings for hundreds of thousands of years. Right, right.
Bridget Crocker
00:09:26.200 - 00:09:41.480
It's evolution. Yeah. Being able to survive in your environment, that's key.
And luckily, you know, for me, the way that I grew up perfectly prepared me for a life as a river guide in running serious whitewater.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:41.900 - 00:09:46.460
And how do you think that ADHD helps for whitewater? Even.
Bridget Crocker
00:09:49.020 - 00:10:27.070
The ability to get into that deep meditative state when I'm really on. And I think skiers experience it too. I grew up in Jackson Hole, so I'm a skier.
When you get into that hyper focused state and you're just in that zone and flowing, that is a function of adhd. That's the other side of it also. Just being able to make quick, quick decisions.
I've noticed, like when I'm in a boat with other people, like I r twoing with another guide, that my ability to see what's coming and happening happens a few beats before other people. And I think that's because of this, like, super hyper vigilance that I grew up with.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:10:27.470 - 00:10:43.320
Yeah. And that's interesting too.
I think for, you know, if you're a parent of a kid who has these kind of behaviors, like, it's really important to get them doing outdoor sports maybe or, you know, something that has them reacting to the world in a different way than school might.
Bridget Crocker
00:10:43.880 - 00:11:18.340
Yeah. And I was fortunate to have my father had severe ADHD. He wasn't diagnosed until he was in his 60s and we had no idea.
Like, my dad had severe learning deficits that went undiagnosed for most of his life and contributed to his inability to self regulate, which is a big part of the book and theme of the book.
But, you know, once he did get diagnosed and got the help that he needed and was able to, you know, we knew what the problem was and There was a solution. It was like a whole different deal.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:18.340 - 00:11:36.340
That's fantastic. I guess getting back to rivers for a moment. Is there. You know, you've been on rivers all across the world. You've been a guide.
Is there one river in particular that really captures your imagination, that really gets you going as a river guide?
Bridget Crocker
00:11:36.740 - 00:11:39.820
You know, it's interesting. That's the question I'm asked the most, is, you know, like, what's the.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:39.820 - 00:11:41.060
Okay. Oh, no, no.
Bridget Crocker
00:11:41.060 - 00:12:25.090
But it's asked the most because I think that what people are really asking with that question, like, what river should I go on next? In some ways, and, like, what is the best river? And, you know, each river has its. It's like saying, what's the best person?
Everybody has different personalities, but one that I go back to again and again is the Snake river, because it's my home river, you know, so it's like going home. And another that I do, I try to do every year is the Pecuari river in Costa Rica. I love the quarry. It's just a magical, magical place.
And it completely envelops my heart. And, you know, it's. It's where I feel love the most intensely.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:26.050 - 00:12:27.410
How long have you been going there?
Bridget Crocker
00:12:27.970 - 00:12:39.890
The first time I went there was in, like, 1996, and I lived in Costa Rica for a while and worked down there for a number of years.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:40.900 - 00:12:56.499
Interesting. Is there one particular river that scares you or one spot that you're like, oh, man, I don't want to go back to that one.
Or that one's got something for me. I mean, I know I feel this way about certain peaks or maybe ski runs or something. Right. One that's got a hex.
Bridget Crocker
00:12:57.700 - 00:13:51.350
A hex. That's interesting.
You know, I talk about the Zambezi a lot and Yami Nyami, the river God of the Zambezi, and how of all the rivers I've ever been to, I think Nyami Nyami and the Zambezi are the most in need of anger management therapy. But very similar to my father before he was able to get diagnosed and treated for his learning deficits.
I love the saying that anger is hurt's bodyguard. When there's that kind of anger and rage emanating from being, there's hurt underneath it. You know, the challenge, the hex is like.
And the challenge is how I would look at it is getting underneath that anger and the scariness to, like what's underneath it and finding that connection.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:52.550 - 00:13:59.430
And that's because the Zambezi, it's an incredibly high flow River. Right. It's a. It's an absolute blast of water.
Bridget Crocker
00:14:00.310 - 00:14:10.750
But it's also, in Tonga tradition, the Zambezi is very angry because of the dam that was built Kariba, that created Kariba Lake, that separates him from his wife, Kitapo.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:14:10.990 - 00:14:18.350
Have you. I mean, have you felt the river anger? Do you think the river's a little more okay with you because you're understanding and a guide?
Bridget Crocker
00:14:18.830 - 00:14:25.070
No. Very angry, you know? No. I didn't get any special treatment on the Zambezi. I got my ass kicked on the regular there.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:14:25.790 - 00:14:32.750
So for people who haven't been there, don't know about it. I mean, how would you describe just the experience of going, of running that river? It's insane, right?
Bridget Crocker
00:14:33.400 - 00:14:49.000
Like being lost at sea in a squall. Yeah. It's super huge hydraulics. And even if when you're online, like you could flip, it's like 50, 50. It doesn't matter. It's just rolling the dice.
Yeah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:14:50.040 - 00:14:51.880
And did you go down, have you flipped in it?
Bridget Crocker
00:14:52.520 - 00:15:18.140
Yeah. I describe flipping in one of the chapters and going down to the dark, still place in the river. There's a nyanja word for it, mwangala.
And it's where the river is cold and deep and still. And that's where Nyami Naomi lives. The name of that chapter is Nyami. Nyami's lair.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:15:18.780 - 00:15:43.000
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of us who've spent time in water, fortunately or unfortunately, we've been to that place before. Right.
That still cold place when you go under or you're way down deep. I mean, I used to experience it diving down. If you're in the grew up on the beach and the ocean.
When you go way down in deep water, there is that stillness down there. And it's both frightening, but also in a certain way it's compelling as well to be there, isn't it?
Bridget Crocker
00:15:43.480 - 00:16:23.360
Yeah, well, I think in an ocean you're expecting it to be that deep, but most rivers don't get to be 20ft deep. And so it's unique in that way. The gorge is.
You have, you know, 100,000 cfs cubic feet per second flowing over Victoria Falls and then constricted into this very narrow, gorgeous. So the river, the water has no choice but to just go deep. And it's like 20ft deep in a lot of places.
So when you swim there, you know, don't let go of the boat. I learned that I swam once, let go the boat, never again.
And to this day, like, I never am I away from the boat when I fall out, like, I find a way to cling onto it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:16:23.680 - 00:16:38.870
Right? Yeah, yeah. And you said the Snake river, though, is your. You know, that's your home. That's where you keep going back to a lot.
It's also a river you enjoy sharing with people. And does it continue to surprise you? Does it continue to bring new things to you as well?
Bridget Crocker
00:16:39.430 - 00:17:19.810
Yeah, absolutely. You know, the. The Snake, I think, has always been the river that holds up a mirror for me, you know, and shows me, like, who I.
Who I really am and who I'm being. And if there's a discrepancy between those two things, like, I'm. She lets me know right away. And I love going there.
Last year, I started teaching on the faculty with Jackson Hole writers, and I teach a class on the river, the river as Guide and writing about the river and on the river and kind of how to channel those stories and use the river to spark creativity. And I look forward to doing that again this July. I'll be there.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:17:20.530 - 00:17:49.470
Yeah.
And I loved how in the press materials for your book, there was this great quote from you where you said, may the river's daughter encourage and guide those who feel disconnected and disempowered to reclaim their volition and place in the world. And I love that coming from someone who's a guide themselves on the river.
Thinking of this book that's a memoir as also a guidebook, that it's something that can help people navigate the kind of life difficulties that you've had to navigate.
Bridget Crocker
00:17:50.110 - 00:18:20.660
Yeah. That was really the impetus for writing and publishing the book.
It started out as just a way for me to chart the obstacles that were in my life in the same way that I charted the obstacles on river expeditions. And then it became sort of a way to help others navigate those obstacles.
Because as a guide, it's just part of my DNA, to help people and to guide people. So it is my hope that it finds its way to people who need it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:18:20.980 - 00:18:25.140
Who, ideally, do you want the book to reach and talk to and speak to?
Bridget Crocker
00:18:25.410 - 00:18:51.810
Well, I think there's a lot of us who just feel very disconnected in many ways, from ourselves, from our families of origin, from nature, from the society we find ourselves in, you know, and we're stronger together.
And that's one of the things that I've learned, being a part of the river industry, the river culture, that, you know, we can overcome a lot of things together. And building that connection and trust with the people around us is so essential.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:18:52.310 - 00:19:02.070
Yeah, it's an important Part of being both a river guide or spending any time on the river. Right. You have to have systems in place. You know, when things go wrong on the water, it goes wrong very quickly. Very quickly.
Bridget Crocker
00:19:02.150 - 00:19:02.670
Trips.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:02.670 - 00:19:03.110
Yeah.
Bridget Crocker
00:19:03.110 - 00:19:06.950
Single boat trips are not a good idea. Two boats or more.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:06.950 - 00:19:34.090
Yeah. So, I mean, that's a great thought, too, is you're not running the river alone or you can't be safely. Right. And that happens in your book as well.
What do you think is the key to what? Rivers. And spending time on rivers and learning how to properly run rivers. I mean, what do you think?
At its base, the most important thing we can learn is spending time on river trips and. And learning more about the water and how to be on the water.
Bridget Crocker
00:19:34.570 - 00:20:54.990
Well, I mean, there's so many different components to. And that's what, you know, feeds the ADHD mind, too.
It's like, oh, there's the gear and there's the skill set they need to navigate, you know, and learning, like, the hard skills. Skills of rowing and. And then there's reading water and then there's group dynamics.
You know, there's so many components that keep you busy on river trips.
And I think what I found is, like, in guiding, you know, thousands of river trips over the years in many, many countries, a lot of people come away with this sense of that they're stronger than they think that they are. You know, and that's like, a lot of people, like, wow, you know, I really am capable of a lot more than I thought I was capable of.
You know, people come from all walks of life. I've taken people from Park Avenue and, you know, people who just from this.
From cities with no backgrounds in survivalist culture, which I was raised in.
And, yeah, just learning skill sets and being surprised constantly that they do have the ability to adapt and to connect with nature in the way that they'd always imagined. You know, all of us do with. With the help and guidance of other people who have those skills.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:55.870 - 00:21:08.430
Have you had some clients in particular who you really saw change and transform on a river trip and maybe connected with them later and were able to really see how much you'd help guide their life, even.
Bridget Crocker
00:21:08.430 - 00:23:36.380
Right. Like. Oh, yeah. Even recently. I just. This was a crazy thing that happened. I was. For 17 years. My husband was a life.
Well, he's a lifeguard supervisor for state parks in California. And so we lived in employee housing at Leo Carrillo State beach and raised our girls there for 17 years. And we survived the Woolsey Fire in 2018.
And I wrote a story about it for Westways magazine. And I was walking in the campground with one of my daughters, and this couple was like, are.
Are you the woman who wrote the story in West Waste magazine about the Woolsey fire? And I was like, yeah. How did you know that? Well, I recognized you from the illustration.
I said, well, that was an illustration of the back of my head. Like, that's wild. And then we start talking, and then, you know, they're real friendly couple, and.
And they asked me where I was from, and I said, I grew up in Jackson, Wyoming. And they said, oh, we went there once in, like, the early 90s, and we went rafting on the Snake River.
And I said, well, I used to be a guide on the Snake River. And they were like, well, we went with somebody that was. She looked like you. And then they start reciting, like, my safety talk back to me.
It couldn't have been you. It must have been somebody else. And this girl, she had leg hair.
And I was like, I was the only blonde river guide with leg hair in 1999 in the Snake River. It was me. I was your guide. And so, you know, we formed this fast friendship. It was. I mean, this is like 30 years later or something.
It was crazy to just bump into them and then have them start, you know, in California, have them start reciting my safety talk to me. And one of the things that I love about guiding trips and, like, imparting, like, here's how you survive in nature to people who.
Who have no idea, there's a moment where there's a switch, you know, where they go from, like, this trepidation of, like, maybe I don't belong here. I don't know what I'm doing. To kind of, like, when you're on a roller coaster or something, and you.
You, like, get into this zone of exhilaration and surrender, and then it's like, yeah, they're just, you know, fully open to the experience, and it's fueling them, and they're, like, channeling it, and they're. They're aligned, right? That's when they.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:23:36.380 - 00:23:37.020
Yeah, yeah.
Bridget Crocker
00:23:37.930 - 00:23:46.650
And that. I've seen so many people go through that process, and that's. I mean, that's what I love about guiding, is being there for that, witnessing that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:23:47.130 - 00:24:16.790
I think also, I mean, for me, on river trips, one of the most beautiful things is going on to river time, right? When you basically throw the. Watch out. Throw the phone out, you don't do anything, and you really understand time.
I mean, maybe this is a good thing for those of us with adhd. And people listening here will know those of us not good with deadlines or being on time.
Maybe we get back into the hour, actual rhythm of time when we're on a river, when we're not looking at watches and electronics. Right.
Bridget Crocker
00:24:17.350 - 00:24:53.810
Yeah. Well, much to my family's chagrin, I am always on river time.
And so my daughter's like, set an alarm on my phone, like, mom, don't forget to pick us up. Because I get writing. I'm, you know, like, super deep in it, and then I'll, like, just, you know, come out of it with a start. Like, oh, the children.
I have to go pick them up. And there's an alarm there for me, which is great. So that's, you know, one of.
One of the benefits of being a creative person is, like, that ability to lose track of time and space, but it's not great for, you know, having to run a schedule.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:24:54.690 - 00:25:29.720
Yeah, I think we're way too similar here, Bridget, because that sounds like. I'm sure my kids are like, that's my dad. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, in another way, like, do we experience time more realistically when we're on.
On river time or on, you know, writing time or, you know, in these spots? Like, does it have to be that time is parsed into, you know, small, obviously, real divisions, minutes and seconds?
Or is there something else about the way the brain and the experience take in time that we can connect to when we're out there on a river trip or in the wilderness in general?
Bridget Crocker
00:25:30.200 - 00:26:13.180
Well, yeah, you know, that presence of being, being in. Aligned in time and space to what you're doing.
It's essential to how we were created as beings, you know, And I think that's what feels so like a balm to your nervous system when you get into that place where you can just click into alignment and there's. I mean, for me, it's like this. This calm that washes over me, and then I can just be fully present. And I love that feeling, too.
I try to get into that zone every day with a walk or, you know, just to get out in nature and watch the birds, whatever it is that I can fit into my day. It's so important that we continue to nurture that connection.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:26:13.580 - 00:26:25.420
And do you think the people who go on river trips with you, do you think they can go away and bring that back to their daily lives and find a way to unplug in the same way? Or can that only happen in the wild?
Bridget Crocker
00:26:25.420 - 00:27:04.520
It's interesting. I've been Doing these women's adventure wellness retreats with a friend of mine, Jeremy Anderson, who does Ayurveda, and she's a river guide.
We guided together on the Kern, and we decided that we would put together these women's retreats with writing and Ayurveda and the river, and we had no idea how it was going to go. We're like, let's just, you know, she has adhd, too, because she does. Let's just see how it goes, and we'll throw all this stuff together.
And it ended up being this amazing experience. And we brought. For the first couple of retreats that we did, our friends were kind of, you know, the ones that were showing up on these trips.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:27:04.600 - 00:27:04.760
And.
Bridget Crocker
00:27:05.150 - 00:27:33.260
And so I had the benefit of, like, having that experience with friends of mine in LA who are writers.
And maybe not, you know, they're maybe not people who are outdoor people, necessarily, but they're just interested in going with me on a trip to see what it's like and, you know, then coming back and they did have that experience on the river, and they're still cultivating it in their lives. You know, a year later, it's. Their lives have changed. And it's awesome to see that continuum.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:27:34.300 - 00:28:15.660
You know, we were talking earlier about the river speaking to you, and there is one very specific scene in your book, in, I believe, the first chapter early on when you were young and you fall in the Snake river, and it does speak to you, and it tells you to swim, which is awesome. And that made me think, too, about, you know, another thing we can learn from the wilder rivers is, is to listen with our instincts, right?
That we can. That we get cut off from that. Otherwise, I wonder how you're still able to. How you learned from that throughout your life.
I think the book goes into it, obviously, but for the podcast, maybe you can talk about how the river telling you to swim. How is that guide for the rest of your life? Maybe.
Bridget Crocker
00:28:15.660 - 00:29:26.730
Yeah.
And that's an awesome question, and that's a huge part of why I wrote this book, was to illustrate how our instincts inform us and how do we find them, how do we reconnect with them, how do we listen to them, how do we implement them in our lives? Because there's like several steps, just like surfing and learning to stand up on a surfboard. How do you learn how to surf? Like, oh, stand up.
There's a lot of pieces to standing up before you get there, like the paddling out and the learning to pop up and just so many components.
And I Wanted to be able to break that down because I think it's such an essential part of who we are and how to navigate our lives with intention and a spiritual connection. So, you know, for me, my instincts, you know, I grew up in a family where there was a lot of denial and gaslighting.
And so I had really strong instincts from the beginning because I was, you know, super hyper vigilant and I'd had a lot of chaos. And then I was told that the things that I saw and witnessed weren't happening. The things that, you know, had happened to me weren't true.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:29:26.730 - 00:29:27.090
Yes.
Bridget Crocker
00:29:27.090 - 00:33:41.920
So that, you know, that sends you into a spiral of like, can I even trust my own instincts? You know, like, can I even trust myself?
And just like on a river where you end up swimming in a hole and you're recirculated and you don't know which way is up and how to get out, how do you get out of that? You're just caught in this cycle where you're just getting worked. We call it getting maytagged in rafting.
You're just getting maytagged in, you know, gaslighting and denial and that family system, you know, which I talk about overcoming the multi generational cycles of trauma and abuse. And that's a huge part of it, of the cycle is gaslighting and denial. That's how you keep the system going forward. Right.
So when I became a river guide and I was started to rely on my instincts to survive, you know, I had to and it's what I had going for me.
And, and when I would rely on my instincts, when the river would tell me which way to go, you know, I put my hand in the water and I always ask for safe passage and for the river to show me the way, you know, show me the line and let, let my hands be your hands and let, you know, let my hands and my actions honor you. You know that it's a relationship that I'm having where I'm.
I'm sur to the power of the river and asking for that inspiration and that instinct to put me where I need to be, to have a good run and to be safe.
The more that I developed that skill and that relationship and it worked out for me time and time again, you know, where I was having great lines, you know, people were, my co workers were always like, how do you always have such great lines?
And I'm like, well, the river tells me where to go, you know, and I just listen and go and, and I started to realize like that was a working part of my skill set and that I could trust it. And then something happens, and I talk about it in the book.
Something happens next to the river where I'm confronted by a male coworker, and it's a scene of sexual harassment next to the river.
And my instinct as a trauma survivor is to disappear and dissociate, you know, because that's what's kept me safe for, like, you know, what the generations of women in my family have done to survive, you know, sexual trauma. And so I start to do that, but the river's right there, holding up a mirror, like, who are you being right now? This isn't who you are.
This isn't who I know you to be.
And that extreme dichotomy of, like, who I am in the river, to the river, in that relationship and who I was being, you know, as a response to a traumatic upbringing, I chose to lean into, you know, what I trusted with my instincts on the river. And that mechanism, like, changing that mechanism was probably one of the hardest things I've ever done.
And that's a huge part of, like, how do you stand up on the surfboard? How do you pop up? It feels so foreign. It feels like you're swimming underwater or trying to scream underwater.
And, like, everything in you is like, no, be small. Go in the cave. There's this part of you that's like, you know, wanting to change that.
That mechanism and change your story, change the narrative, change it, your legacy, right through your DNA. It's like an evolutionary moment of shift, and it takes so much energy to do that.
And I was so lucky that I was able to be on the river next to the river and to lean into that and have that aid from the river coming, you know, coming to my aid. And it came to my aid a couple of times in those situations and reminded me, like, no, you know, this isn't who you are.
And stepping, like, constant making that choice and constantly stepping into who I was becoming and growing into, you know, because rivers, you know, it's such an easy metaphor, but, like, no river is the same, right?
Like, it's always changing, and we're always growing into, like, the next version of ourselves, you know, so it's just a great reminder to lean into that next version, and that's what helped me shift.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:33:42.320 - 00:34:04.630
Well, and I do think it's very powerful in the book and in your life how even though rivers change all the time, there's also been this, you know, constant support that you've had that's far deeper, as you were saying, than any, you know, any of the difficulties we have to deal with in life, that you can always go back to it. Right. It's always there for you.
Bridget Crocker
00:34:05.180 - 00:34:21.820
Yeah. It's something I can trust, and my relationship with the river is something I can trust.
You know, I know who I am there, and it's a place from which I can go out and have that belief in myself and know that I'm always welcomed and I always belong there.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:34:22.300 - 00:34:43.260
There's a great Hemingway quote about. He's in Paris, and he's like, it's a beautiful day. The only thing that could ruin it was people.
And it seems like for those of us who are close to nature. Right. This is the way we are. Like. Like, we're okay. We're at home. We're peaceful. We're not hurt.
When we're in those places in nature, it's dealing with. It's dealing with the people that's difficult. Right?
Bridget Crocker
00:34:43.500 - 00:34:58.620
Yeah. And with people who have been hurt, you know, who are. Who are suffering and don't know how to get out of that cycle.
So, yeah, it was a huge part of me wanting to release this book in the world to help people, you know, learn how to recognize and break out of the cycle.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:34:59.500 - 00:35:35.430
Yeah. And, you know, I think we were talking about this.
I was thinking when you talked about the river God, the anger in the world and anger and bullying and all that coming out of hurt. It seems like when we were children, there was definitely a lot more of that, and it was gaslit a lot more. It was allowed to happen.
It feels like we're getting. We were getting in a better place, maybe with that. And now a lot of that anger is coming out more. And I think people are still in denial. Right.
I mean, how much sexual harassment still exists in places where people don't want to believe or don't want to admit it exists. Like out in the wild, on. In the outdoor space, in the guiding space. It's still there, right? It's still ugly.
Bridget Crocker
00:35:35.990 - 00:36:49.470
Yes.
But I think that there has been a huge shift since, you know, people are telling their stories and sharing their stories because we're as sick as our secrets, you know, and when we. Like I thought I was the only person this was happening to. Right.
And it was something that I hid because I thought it would hinder me from moving, advancing in my career. So it was just something I dealt with kind of by myself. And we didn't talk about it.
And also, it was like each of these instances didn't seem all that bad, you know, in and of themselves. And we're conditioned to think like, oh, you know, whatever. It's just a little bit of hazing, you know, that happens.
And, you know, it wasn't until 2016, before the second wave of the MeToo movement, that there was that report filed by 13 women who had experienced sexual harassment while working for the Grand Canyon River District of the National Park Service. And that report detailed a pattern of sexual harassment. At that time, it was the U.S. department of the Interior who had done a report.
Well, you can't even find that report now. It's been scrubbed from the Department of Interior website. Yeah, I just tried to look it up the other day, and it's not there.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:36:50.510 - 00:36:57.230
But the thing is, we can't hide from this behavior. Right? People can't pretend it didn't exist. You can't just scrub it away.
Bridget Crocker
00:36:57.230 - 00:39:14.430
No, exactly. But what's interesting. So, like, there are people who are trying to hide that it existed, that it happened at that level.
But my personal experience of that was when I read that report, you know, I was sitting. I remember it clearly. I was sitting on my patio having lunch, and I was reading these. The details of these women, what they'd gone through.
And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. And then I started writing in the margins, like, you know, situations that I'd gone through that were identical to all of these claims.
And I was like, oh, that's sexual harassment. I didn't realize that.
And when you have, like, when it's compiled all in one place and you see it, it's like death by a thousand cuts, you know, like any little thing is, you know, you can overcome it, but it's just that constant, pervasive culture that's targeted at, like, tearing you down, tearing you. You know, those microaggressions all the time. You know, the jokes, the derogatory, the shitty scheduling, you know, the.
The retaliation that happens when, you know, the constant sexual object, the constant, like, putting women in these positions of having to absorb the sexual energy of everybody there, you know, and still be able to do their job. It's just like, something that we learn how to. How to navigate and still do our job.
But when we all started, like, saying, like, no, these are the things, and here's what it looks like. And I think a lot of, like, even guides that I worked with when I would. I, you know, I did a couple of stories, and I.
And I would say, hey, you know, would you be able to talk to this reporter? And Just verify that this thing happened. And, like, you know, I never really saw any sexual harassment. I was like, what about then?
I would, like, detail something that had happened, and they'd be like, oh, yeah, that's sexual harassment. Like, oh, okay, now I'm okay. I see that now. But it's like something that we didn't. It looks different than we thought it looked. Right.
But now that we know what it looks like and now that it's become, like, in our consciousness and so many people have come forward and done stories and told, you know, shared their stories, and people are more aware of it. One of the things that happened just with me, with my story, when I wrote an essay, I don't know if it's pronounced snooze or snooze.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:39:14.430 - 00:39:15.630
Snus. Yeah. Yeah.
Bridget Crocker
00:39:15.950 - 00:39:17.670
Okay. So I did an essay for snooze.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:39:17.670 - 00:39:19.660
I remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bridget Crocker
00:39:19.660 - 00:41:59.320
And so I got this message from the river ranger in the Bridger Teton National Forest who's responsible for managing the Snake river and sexual harassment on the river. And so he contacts me, and he's like, you know, I'm. I was your river ranger at the time, and I didn't know this was happening. What could I have done?
Your essay really moved me. What could I have done to help you and protect you? And I was like, well, one. I didn't even know you existed.
So that would be helpful to know that, you know, like, maybe in the bathroom or something, there could be a note. Like, if you're having problems, contact, you know, me at this number, like, maybe a hotline.
Because, you know, I was reporting sexual harassment to, like, my supervisors who were the creators of the culture, you know, and it was. And sometimes they were the ones doing it. So, like, I'm supposed to report the behavior to the people who are doing it. Yeah.
So having a third party, having a way, you know, somebody that it could be anonymous, like. So we went through this whole thing of, like, what could have helped me and developed this. This protocol.
And then he invited me to come to do a panel, the first ever panel. This is in 2018, the first ever panel for managing sexual harassment in the river industry at the River Management Society Conference.
And from that panel, sharing of stories. I shared my personal story. And then there were some other folks there doing some sharing as well.
The Adash Collaborative, the Anti Discrimination and Sexual Harassment Collaborative, was born in 2019, and it provides consultation and training for outfitters and agencies and support for individual guides in the industry. And so now it's. It's gone to where?
Like, if you're an outfitter and you're not having sexual harassment training for providing that as part of, you know, like, you always have to recertify in first aid CPR at the beginning of every season. And now it's like you have to do the sexual harassment training, too. We never had that. We never had any sexual harassment training.
So I think that there's this huge awareness and a huge shift and happening and that it's not as prevalent as it was when I was a guide, thank God. And, you know, we have people like Maria Blevins doing amazing work on static with statistics.
And so we have measurable data now, which is huge to be able to point to specifically, like, this percentage and like, kind of where it's happening. Because, you know, when I worked in Idaho, it was a whole different situation than when I worked in California.
Different regions have different cultures.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:41:59.880 - 00:42:25.100
Yeah. And I think that as a man, I think men have a huge responsibility to be there and be supportive.
As you said, the other gods who wouldn't admit that it was going on. I think you do have these abusers or toxic personalities out there who are also gaslighting and controlling and bullying the men around too. Right.
So it's this whole complex.
Bridget Crocker
00:42:25.740 - 00:42:45.660
Yeah. But, you know, it's the denial. It's denial. It's part, you know, any kind of an oppressive system employs denial to keep the system functioning.
Just like, you know, coming from a dysfunctional family, there's denial. And it's the same situation in. In these guiding cultures as well. It plays out in the same way.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:42:45.900 - 00:43:10.310
And it also seems important to me that men need to shut up and listen far, far too often than, you know, my. They tend to. That it's really important to listen and, and not try to, you know, form an opinion or say how it is or say how it affects you. But as a.
As a man hearing reports of sexual harassment, we have to stop and, and really listen and respect what we're hearing.
Bridget Crocker
00:43:10.550 - 00:44:22.120
Yeah. I mean, and that's the moment of transformation. Right. The going from like, no denial, going into that small cave inside yourself.
This isn't happening. I, you know, I'm not dealing with this to the screaming underwater, you know, the moving forward.
Like, how do we shift the mechanism, how do we shift the machinery into going downstream? It's like, you know, going from being in the eddy to being in the downstream current. How do we get across the eddy line?
And, you know, it takes focus, commitment, and like you said, listening, but also a willingness to see it differently. And you know, like my friend when I was like, no, remember that time when, because I didn't sleep with the guy, he didn't let us use his rafts.
And so we had to run around and try to find gear, like at the 11th hour. And he was like, oh. And I'm like, yeah, that's retaliation. And he's like, oh, yeah.
You know, and he had this shift of like, this awareness, like, oh, okay, that's what it looks like. And I'm willing to accept that point of view and like, integrate it into the way I. I'm seeing the world too. Because it's hard to make that shift.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:44:22.360 - 00:44:22.720
Right.
Bridget Crocker
00:44:22.720 - 00:44:36.690
It's so much easier to be like, ah, no, that wasn't really happening. Maybe you're exaggerating, maybe you're making it up. But to be like, yes, I.
I'm willing to consider that that's true and tell me more and be curious about it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:44:36.690 - 00:45:04.150
Well, and I think you also, in the book, get into this and you're talking about it here too. It's really hard to break past these cycles of generational trauma as well. Someone's been abused, they're going to continue the abuse in some way.
Someone's been abused, they're going to continue to live in a state of denial, as you said you found yourself in. How can we break those generational cycles? How can we help other people break those generational cycles?
Bridget Crocker
00:45:04.780 - 00:46:19.040
Such a great question, you know, for me, I mean, it's the kind of the same answer for both family and the river culture, which I consider to be my family too, you know, and it really, like, for, you know, for me, with my dad, the work that we did to break the generational cycle of abuse in our family was. It was. It was very difficult and we had to take breaks a lot. I mean, it was.
We went to counseling together and, you know, we'd have to hash out these really intense details of our relationship. And, you know, he would.
I would talk about how I felt when think, you know, there was physical abuse and he would get super angry and get into denial and that never happened. And how dare you and be really defensive. Right? There's a lot of that.
Your initial reaction is to be defensive and to not want, you know, you talk about listening, you can hear it. But to, like, take it into your heart and consider it and then like, how.
How can I make a change and a shift in my behavior to meet this person where they're at is. So it takes a lot of courage and a lot of like, surrender. It really.
You know, it takes a lot of surrender to step into that space with somebody and trust.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:46:19.360 - 00:46:19.760
Right.
Bridget Crocker
00:46:20.000 - 00:47:53.330
So we had a really deep trust of, like, okay, we're going to do this together. We're going to, like, R2 that. This, like, gnarly canyon together.
And I have to be able to trust you because I'm going to throw some heavy stuff in the boat and. And so are you. And we're going to have to, like, work this out. And it was not, you know, sometimes we flipped.
You know, sometimes it would be this, like, you know, huge disaster. Like, one time he overturned a table at the therapist's office, and the therapist is crying and, like, freaking out and, oh, wow. Yeah.
And then he storms out and the therapist is like, oh, my God. He's. You know, he's so intense. I'm like, yeah, no shit. What do you think I've been coming here for? This is what I'm talking about.
But then, you know, like, coming back to, like, how, like, taking breaks. We'd have to take breaks to cool off and then come back together. Like, okay, we're still working on this.
And I still trust, like, you haven't abandoned our project that we're doing together. I trust you're still in this. Us. And we're still paddling.
But sometimes, you know, when you flip the raft and you're in between Maytag and Son of Maytag, you have to, like, right. The raft, you know, take a breather, drink some water, like, kind of pull yourself together before you drop into the next one.
So, you know, that commitment to. I think it's like, the commitment, like, I know you're in it. I know we're doing this. You're not going to bail on me.
You're not going to hike out in the middle of this expedition. But also, you're going to respect when I need to have a break, or I'm going to respect when you need a break.
You know, but we're still going to come back to this.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:47:53.650 - 00:48:00.450
It's such compassion and love from you and from your dad to be able to make it through that.
Bridget Crocker
00:48:00.770 - 00:48:31.790
Yeah.
And that's, you know, I feel like my relationship with my father is definitely one of the most significant relationships, and he's almost my soulmate in that way, because we did have that deep commitment to overturn this together. Like, we set out with this goal. Like, we're going to change our legacy. We're going to change our family trajectory. We're going to do it together.
And I trust that you have the fortitude to do it and vice versa and just that intense commitment right up to the end.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:48:32.510 - 00:48:42.190
And I think that's a really important thing. People can learn from the book, from your experience, right. That this is actually. It's possible to work through these things to make it to change.
Bridget Crocker
00:48:42.750 - 00:49:05.560
Yeah. And you know, I wasn't necessarily going to publish this book, but my father made me promise, you know, it was a deathbed promise that I would do it.
And you know, and so I did to honor him and to. And he really wanted our story to be known, that it is possible. And that's our legacy.
You know, that's what we worked on together and that's what we have to share with the world.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:49:06.680 - 00:49:26.320
That's beautiful. And you know, I guess we talked about how wild places and rivers and being out there can get you through trauma and help you resist it even.
What about, what about healing? How have you found healing in nature, in the river, in your. The way you live your life?
Bridget Crocker
00:49:26.640 - 00:50:13.400
Well, I think there's, you know, just. Just having that unconditional love that I didn't necessarily have growing up provides a sense of healing.
Like there's, you know, I'm not constantly trying to win approval or, or trying to get someone to see me in a way that I want to be seen. You know, I just, I just am accepted as I am, you know, and I can.
And that when you're not constantly having to like do this tap dance underwater like of trying to get approval from, from the people who are charged with providing your, you know, care for you and you can just be yourself and be loved for who you are. That for me has provided the healing.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:50:13.950 - 00:51:03.290
Now maybe on a lighter note or a more fun note, one of the things I loved about this book I thought was so great is it's almost got like a beat feel to it as far as just what it's like to live in a mountain town. It captures mountain town life in a fun way in a lot of spots, despite dealing with so many heavy things.
And in a way, I always feel like this outdoor mountain town life is sort of marginalized in the American experience. But you really bring it front and center in this book as it being a real and valid part of life today.
How important is it to you to be sort of this muse of mountain town culture, as I was going to say, in everything from car racks to speed to powder days, as part of the day to day experience of life?
Bridget Crocker
00:51:04.330 - 00:51:49.450
Yeah, that's one of the things I loved about writing this book was I'M a closet anthropologist and I studied anthropology at university and I have a minor in Native American American studies. Like, I love ethnography and just culture and language. And so I worked with what I had. You know, that was the culture I was raised in.
So I really wanted to represent that and explore it in all the ways and share that because I think, you know, I think it is super special and it's quirky and it's got a lot of, A lot of attributes and characteristics that people who aren't from a mountain town don't understand.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:51:49.930 - 00:52:19.860
And it's one of the successes, I think, of this book too, is despite dealing with really heavy, heavy stuff, it's also a fun read. It's also a lot of fun in there, especially if you spend any time in a mountain town.
And also, I love the joy of your childhood in the book is very prominent as well. And I wonder how now, as a mother with two daughters, how do you share that joy with your children in a really, you know, positive way?
Bridget Crocker
00:52:20.420 - 00:54:46.940
Yeah, you know, basically my whole parenting philosophy is just guiding. You know, I just guide my kids.
Like, we were on a lot of river trips and they've been guided, like going on trips with other river guide families with other kids.
And they, since they were little and they had binkies on their life jackets, you know, and we go with kind of a big group of us and all the kids have grown up together and they're like, they call each other river cousins and they like that lifestyle and just the freedom. They love being in kid pack and just running free when we're in camp.
Our oldest daughter paddled the San Juan by herself when she was 10 in her little inflatable kayak. And she felt so accomplished at the end of it and went back to school and, you know, what'd you do on your spring break?
Like, oh, I paddled, you know, the entire length of the San Juan river by myself.
And here are the blisters on my hands to prove it, you know, and to see them gain that sense of accomplishment and self esteem, you know, because we, we gain self esteem by doing esteemable acts. And kids are so disempowered in so many ways now. Like, and, you know, with helicopter parenting, like, everything things taken care of for them.
And like, there's this, I think Gen X, we were so, like, not protected that we've gone the other direction, you know, to like, make sure nothing happens. But, you know, being somebody who feels the most comfortable in nature, like, I trust nature more than I trust Society, right, and human culture.
I, I, I've taught my kids the skills that they need to survive and then, like, let them go. And it's just a joy to see that flourish, you know, and carry. Like, they came home the other day and they were so upset.
They'd seen some girls from school, the yucca flowers bloom here in June, and we all love yucca. And they'd seen these girls, like, pull the, the flowers out before they'd even bloomed and were using them as swords, and they were horrified.
They came home just so upset because now they can't bloom this year, you know, and how could you? They were just devastated. So that's how I keep the magic of life and just continuing to nurture that relationship with myself and with my family.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:54:47.340 - 00:55:21.540
So getting back to the dark stuff, anger, bullying, harassment, it feels like we're in a time now when that stuff is being legitimized again. And we also have this current violence and destruction facing public lands and wild spaces.
It feels like, you know, you and your voice and your, your presence right now could be a really good guide for people on how to navigate what's going on in the current times. How do you see yourself helping people through what we're facing now?
Bridget Crocker
00:55:21.700 - 00:56:35.710
You know?
Well, I think all of us, you know, should, and for me especially, like, I look at, like, how can I do what I can, where I am, with what I have, like, stay in, like, what's my lane? Because I can't do all of it. But, you know, the Channel Islands is outside my door.
And my husband and I met on San Miguel island in the Channel Islands, and it's very important to us and to our family. And it's being threatened with deep sea mining right now.
And it's been proposed that Santa Rosa island be taken out of Channel Islands national park, which is insane and absurd. So, and I was sharing that with my girls this morning.
They were completely outraged and like, no, that can't happen, you know, because that's, we're stewards of the Channel Islands. We're stewards of this place where we've grown up.
So I think all of us taking ownership, I don't even like the word ownership, but, like, taking responsibility for the relationships with the land that we are nurtured by, you know, like the places that inform us and, and speak to who we are, we have to continue to speak for those places and use what we have to do. So.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:56:36.270 - 00:56:49.070
So unfortunately, we're running out of time and we're down to the final question that we ask everyone at the end of this podcast, and it is a very simple one, and I'm excited to hear your answer. And that is just what gives you hope.
Bridget Crocker
00:56:49.470 - 00:57:21.310
I love that question. And I think there's always hope.
You know, I get a lot of hope from people who are still wanting to learn how, you know, how to grow in their relationships, how to grow in their skills, how to grow as outdoor people and stewards, environmentalists. You know, just the question, like, what can people do?
Like, it speaks to wanting to grow into that next version of ourselves that this moment is calling from all of us. So that gives me hope for all the people who are answering that call.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:57:21.860 - 00:57:36.780
That's fantastic. Well, thank you again for being on the show. And one more time, the River's Daughter. It's a beautiful, difficult, and fun book.
If something can be all those three things together, I hope it's great, just.
Bridget Crocker
00:57:36.780 - 00:57:37.699
Like a river trip.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:57:38.900 - 00:57:49.120
That's very true. Yes. I hope that people flock to it. And once again, what's the best way to find that is through independent booksellers would be your advice.
Bridget Crocker
00:57:50.150 - 00:58:03.750
Yeah. Or you can go to my website. I have all the links there. Bridgetcrocker.com there's all the information about trips that I'm running and book events.
I'm coming to a mountain town near you this summer, so I hope to see all of you on the road.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:58:04.550 - 00:58:13.350
That's fantastic. And I hope people come out to see you. Please do. Bridget, it was really amazing to have you on the show.
Thank you so much for all you do and all you bring.
Bridget Crocker
00:58:13.430 - 00:58:16.090
Thank you so much, Doug. It was such an honor and a pleasure to be here.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:58:16.320 - 00:58:45.850
Her thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight llc.
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfight gmail.com learn more about Bridget Crocker and her new book, the river's daughter, @bridgetcrocker.com Our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensar Hurt. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some thanks for listening.
