Is NEMO’s Swing At Sustainability Necessary? Plus: Another Attempt To Sell Our Public Lands

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Today on the show we're bringing you the first interview recorded at 2025's GOA Connect and then checking in on the latest attempt to sell off our public lands.

First up Colin and Eoin Comerford sat down with NEMO's Cam Brensinger to talk about 20 years of building a bullet proof reputation and ponder if outdoor gear needs to go as far with sustainability initiatives as apparel.

Then Colin is joined by Tania Lown-Hecht from the Outdoor Alliance to discuss the news of the Senate's attempt to require the sale of 3 million acres of public lands. Get your emails and phone calls ready, it's time to get back to work. Or just click here to get it done quickly.

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Episode Transcript:

Colin True

00:00:00.320 - 00:00:49.660

Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.

I'm Colin True, and today we're talking about Nemo Equipment as well as the latest threat from our own government to our public lands. But before we get to that, come back to the Rock Fight on Monday to hear us preview Switchback Spring.

Will it be the new event that is written in pen on the calendar of the outdoor industry? We're about to find out. And if you'll be in Nashville next week for Switchback, so will the Rock Fight.

Be sure to put the Rock Fight live on your agenda for Tuesday, June 17th at 5 o' clock in the trailheads Theater. I'll be there with producer Dave, with Owen, with Shantae. If Switchback's gonna be the event to the summer, this will be the event of the event.

Don't miss it. Come to the show, stick around and say hi afterwards. Love to see you. All right, stick around. We'll be right back.

Chris DeMakes

00:00:49.660 - 00:00:53.500

Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.

Colin True

00:00:55.610 - 00:01:24.780

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Chris DeMakes

00:01:24.860 - 00:01:26.220

Floor hero.

Colin True

00:01:27.740 - 00:02:16.350

It may be lunchtime, but between sandwich bites, he learned about fog fighting tech and snow goggles. An hour later, that knowledge helped a customer pick the perfect pair and add a helmet too. Learning on the go, selling with certainty, adding value.

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Chris DeMakes

00:02:16.510 - 00:02:25.550

Be a shop floor hero and give us here to stay. Shop floor hero. SALTW is the way.

Colin True

00:02:25.850 - 00:05:23.240

Hey.

Liz and Royal Robbins were known as American climbing royalty.

Part of the first group of Yosemite based climbers that would scale routes yet unclimbed who would promote the ethic of clean climbing and who, with a core group of startup brands, would serve as the foundation of our modern outdoor industry.

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From Rock Craft productions coming spring 2026 to a specialty store near you, Royal Robins presents Being Royal Robins it's the story of how the Royal Robins Men's desert pucker became an icon and spawned the new Camino Pucker.

And it's the story of how an innovative brand launched mosquito protection technology to keep you protected without the use of chemicals, and why the Salith hoodie is possibly the most unique hoodie in our outside world, and how you can experience this uniquely American story of adventure through the thoughtful clothing choices of Royal Robbins.

Available for streaming everywhere you find actual water based tributaries and don't miss a sneak preview at Spring 26 GeoA Connect this June Being Royal Robins because nature and adventure are good for the soul okay, this episode is coming out on Friday, June 13, which is spooky. And just yesterday, June 12, the latest edition of the Grassroots Outdoor Alliance Connect show came to a close. And I was there at the beginning. Of the show, as you probably heard earlier this week.

And while there, I had a chance to interview a few brand leaders for future episodes of the Rock Flight. And today we're sharing the first of those with you.

On Monday at GEOA Connect, Cam Brensinger, Founder and CEO of Nemo Equipment, sat down with Owen Comerford and I to reflect on the journey Nemo has gone on from being a weird upstart gear brand making tents that traded poles for air beams, to being a brand that has a pretty bulletproof reputation in 2025, at least when it comes to the quality of their products and the level of thought that goes into their design. Now, the plan for today was to just share that conversation with Cam.

But then late Wednesday night it was reported that the US Senate introduced a spending bill that would sell off more than 3 million acres of public lands. According to the Outdoor alliance, this is perhaps the most extreme proposal ever. It comes to the sale of public land. So I picked up the bat phone.

And had a chat with Tanya Lone Hecht at the Outdoor alliance about what's happening and what we need to do to ensure that this piece of shit legislation gets squashed. But first, let's talk to Cam and learn about Nemo.

Welcome back to the Rock Flight, where today we're Talking about outdoor gear sustainability and yet another public lands mess. Joining Owen and I today. Is it breast? Is it Brensinger?

Cam Brensinger

00:05:24.120 - 00:05:25.160

Bren Singer.

Colin True

00:05:25.160 - 00:05:27.960

Bren Singer. You'd think that'd be more intuitive. You read that?

Cam Brensinger

00:05:27.960 - 00:05:32.360

Yeah. For 49 years I've thought that would be more intuitive. It's always Brezinger. Yeah.

Colin True

00:05:32.360 - 00:05:35.680

As a guy whose last name is true and I have to spell it for everybody. I feel you.

Cam Brensinger

00:05:35.680 - 00:05:38.760

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eoin Comerford

00:05:39.880 - 00:05:42.600

Wait, try having a name that starts with three vowels.

Colin True

00:05:43.880 - 00:05:49.000

So what is your name again? The founder and CEO of Nemo Equipment. Welcome to the show, Cam.

Cam Brensinger

00:05:49.000 - 00:05:50.360

Thanks so much. Happy to be here.

Colin True

00:05:50.360 - 00:05:56.600

This is an historic moment, guys. This is the first ever in person interview on the rock fight.

Cam Brensinger

00:05:57.000 - 00:05:57.800

Oh, wow.

Eoin Comerford

00:05:57.880 - 00:05:58.480

No way.

Colin True

00:05:58.480 - 00:06:10.440

Yeah, yeah. We have not. Everything's been digital. Justin and I did one recording together at Outdoor Media Summit last year.

Otherwise it's been all over some software. So congratulations.

Cam Brensinger

00:06:10.440 - 00:06:11.640

Like, are you afraid of germs or.

Colin True

00:06:13.160 - 00:06:27.430

You know, honestly, sometimes it's like, you.

Know what, maybe we should just all go to a room and click a link and it'll be easier. But, but anyway, so thanks for being here.

We are at GOA Connect here in Reno, Nevada and we want to take advantage of being in the room with some interesting people and happy to have you on.

Cam Brensinger

00:06:27.750 - 00:06:28.950

Happy to be here. Yeah.

Colin True

00:06:29.110 - 00:06:38.310

So let's start with just, you know. We only have a few. For a few minutes. I remember seeing Nemo at Outdoor retailer, probably around 0506 when I started going to Outdoor Retailer.

Cam Brensinger

00:06:38.310 - 00:06:38.670

Yeah.

Colin True

00:06:38.670 - 00:06:44.720

Which I imagine is about a year or two after you had launched the brand with the Airbeam tent. Is that accurate?

Cam Brensinger

00:06:44.720 - 00:06:45.160

That's right.

Colin True

00:06:45.160 - 00:06:59.680

Okay. All right. Long journey.

So from the time, you know, Nemo, generally regarded as a. And now regarded as a brand with one of the best reputations in the outdoor industry when it comes to, you know, product quality.

You know, 20 years, does it feel a little more like 40?

Cam Brensinger

00:07:00.480 - 00:07:55.450

It depends on the day in the last few months. Sometimes it feels like 40 years. But yeah, it's. It's been an epic journey. We were, I founded the company in 2002.

We debuted in the summer of 2004 in the pavilion at the back of OR. And it was, you know, that first year we showed up, actually we thought we wanted to be a direct to consumer business.

We were really there to just sort of unveil the brand, which was naive at the time. And then we were lucky enough to win this ISPO brand new award in 05 and we kind of showed back up at the or kind of with Our tail between the legs.

Like, wait a second. We do want to be a wholesale brand.

And it was fun to watch the progression of our credibility over the years, because in the first few years, people would say, oh, it's such cool stuff. Those weird Airbnb tents. Like, it's fascinating. Do you want to sell it in your store? No, we'll wait and see how it does. I just think it's cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eoin Comerford

00:07:56.730 - 00:08:20.360

One of the things I personally love about Nemo is just the level of innovation that you've brought over the years. And, you know, when I see a Nemo product, I don't even have to see the logo. I know it's a Nemo product. Right.

Just because of the level of differentiation. This might be an unfair question, but if you had to pick one innovation over the years that Nemo has brought to us, what would you pick?

What's your favorite?

Cam Brensinger

00:08:21.080 - 00:08:24.880

I would say our Stargaze chair. So we make somewhere.

Colin True

00:08:24.880 - 00:08:27.160

Justin Hausman is very happy. He loves that.

Cam Brensinger

00:08:29.320 - 00:08:38.750

We make a chair for the campfire. Really? That was the first swinging and autoreclining chair. And do you want me to tell you why?

Colin True

00:08:38.750 - 00:08:40.790

Yeah, go for it. Of course.

Cam Brensinger

00:08:41.030 - 00:10:22.640

So, first of all, I did the first sketch for that chair in 2012. We launched it in 2017.

So it was a patient development I recognized in the early days, 2012, 2013, we didn't have the internal horsepower to move into that category and do that chair right.

So we ended up hiring a designer out of Apple, an Engineer out of GE, MIT PhD Engineering, and three of us worked together for a couple years to bring that chair to market.

But when we started out on that project, our rule, as is always the case, was we have to do something that is totally different than what's been out there. And so we kicked off the project with building a slideshow for ourselves of the history of furniture, and came to appreciate.

And I'll say this, as an industrial designer, the chair has been an obsession of creative people and designers for literally thousands of years. I mean, we found drawings of really cool folding Egyptian chairs. And so it was a high.

Like to say we're going to make a totally new sitting experience in a chair was a very high bar. And at the end of the day, we did.

When we launched Stargaze, there had never been, as best we can tell, essentially like a hammock and the form factor of a chair with that kind of swinging and auto reclining. And nonetheless, our forecast for the first year was really humble. We thought we would sell maybe 3,000 of them, maybe 4,000 of them.

And we sold 45,000 of them the first year.

Colin True

00:10:22.960 - 00:10:23.400

Wow.

Cam Brensinger

00:10:23.400 - 00:10:47.120

And it was $219 when we launched, which was almost double the typical price of a camp chair. And so it was a great lesson all around. You know, it was a proof point of the value of true differentiation.

It was a proof point for us that we could move into kind of a whole new category and tackle a hard problem like that. And it was rewarding. In the end, it kicked off our furniture program.

Eoin Comerford

00:10:48.800 - 00:11:15.640

For me, my personal car camping tent is a wagon Top four. Love it. And similar sort of thought process. I can see that you didn't just start with other tents and say, how do we make them better?

You just said, no f that we're going to just build the best car camping that we can build. Yeah, I love that as a. Because I'm more of a car camper than a backpacker. And so much in our industry, I feel like car camping gets the short shrift.

It's like that's not core, right? I mean.

Colin True

00:11:15.640 - 00:11:16.240

No, we don't.

Eoin Comerford

00:11:16.400 - 00:11:22.880

So tell me a little bit about sort of that evolution and how. How Nemo really sort of embrace car camping a little bit as part of what you do.

Cam Brensinger

00:11:23.040 - 00:12:22.420

Yeah, I mean, a couple. A couple of thoughts come to mind there. 1. So I wouldn't put the wagon top on our list of. Short list of successes because I actually loved that tent.

We had to cancel that tent because it was. We weren't selling very many of them. It was very expensive.

And there's this sort of paradox that happens with tents where the larger they get, the less the consumer expects to pay for them. Kind of driven by, you know, this sort of Walmart segment of camping.

And so when we set out to make Wagontop, the mission was to make standing height over as much of the interior square footage as possible. And you might appreciate that if you think about your tent, it's these very steep walls. It had a unique pole architecture to make that possible.

And then we took advantage of that unique pole architecture to kind of build in permanent vents with it. It had some really a single wall tent. So you didn't have a separate rainfly. Like there's a lot about it that was cool and different.

But the problem is you can buy a passable family tent of that size for under a hundred dollars.

Colin True

00:12:22.580 - 00:12:22.980

Right.

Cam Brensinger

00:12:23.220 - 00:12:51.520

And so that's been a difficult. So I'd say we would love to. To make more camping product, but it has this sort of built in paradox.

But the other thing Is, you know, we often in this industry, we have this trope of like, is it core or not? My question is, which generation of core are we talking about?

Because core when I was 18 and falling in love with outdoor activities was a different thing than I think, than core in 2025.

Colin True

00:12:51.680 - 00:12:52.200

Agreed.

Cam Brensinger

00:12:52.200 - 00:13:00.840

And I think we have to be thoughtful about that because Core from 1990 is a very small portion of the market today.

Colin True

00:13:01.080 - 00:14:32.830

We talk about that.

I think it's just more proof that it's our generation and maybe some folks who are older than even the three of us who are still sort of running the industry.

When you look at what I have an almost 20 year old and what she considers to be outdoors, and she's an outdoorsy kid, she likes to mountain bike, she likes to hike, but she does not look at the brands and the products the same way at all that I did or do. And I think that is just the shift that probably needs to continue to happen. Yeah, kind of pivoting into the kind of sustainability conversation.

Because the conversation around sustainability in the industry lies mainly around apparel, which, given the amount of apparel that we make in general, makes a lot of sense when it comes to gear.

It does feel like longevity or length of time something can be of use becomes the primary sustainability story, which is a primary sustainability story that we all talk about in the outdoors, Right. Like, how long can it stay in circulation? How can you make sure people continue to use it? So recently though, you guys been.

And I know not recently, it's always been important to you, but you've been pushing those boundaries, right, with the endless Promise collection, you know, aiming to keep the gear out of the landfill.

The one thing I want to ask you though, and if you want to consider this, like the rock we're going to throw at you like on this episode, you know, given how long many of the products you will make will be useful and the steps that will be naked that will need to be taken by consumers to ensure the worn gear gets recycled. Gets recycled. Like, how challenging is that going to be, right?

I mean, could you make the case, like, hey, are you even going to be around in 30 years to take the thing back? Because it's probably how long the tent's going to last. Right? Those kinds of things.

So I mean, understand there's a principled matter here, like just doing the right thing, but it is sort of like the practical matter of what the collection is. You know what I mean?

Cam Brensinger

00:14:32.830 - 00:16:27.830

Yeah, yeah. Look, I think it's so many thoughts come to mind, but.

But one of the issues is, you know, sort of fundamentally, like we could make the argument, right? If really what we care about more than anything else is our impact on the planet, how can we justify that? We make stuff in the first place, right?

So on some level, like I accept we are a for profit business. We are here to make gear that enables adventure and that has certain implications that aren't planet friendly.

But, you know, some Years ago, around 2020, we reached a scale where it struck me, like, how much stuff we're making every year that ultimately will be in the landfill. Like just. Yeah. And then we're still a small brand in the industry. Multiply that out across the entire industry, right.

And we know that our livelihood, our future, our daily activities are dependent on a healthy planet. Like, that's just a reality.

It just struck me as fundamentally upsetting that the industry is making millions and millions and millions of items every year that are faded to be in a landfill. They cannot be recycled. And 100% of what we made in 2019 could not be recycled. And so we decided in 2020, two major commitments we made publicly.

One was we would cut our carbon intensity, like, in other words, the amount of emissions it takes to make our products on average in half by 2030, and we would move toward making all of our product recyclable.

Now, we started to do that in the last few years and as you say, I mean, we have not recycled a single item yet, which is good because those things have only been in the market a few years.

Colin True

00:16:27.830 - 00:16:28.790

So why are you recycling?

Cam Brensinger

00:16:28.790 - 00:16:49.720

They were already. End of life would be a problem, but we'll see how that all plays out. Exactly. But I feel like on some level we have a responsibility to sort that out.

And that is the hardest problem. It is very easy to write a check to, quote, offset your emissions. It is hard to figure out how to make a technical product recyclable.

Colin True

00:16:49.800 - 00:17:15.300

And this is where I come back on the innovation thing, which is the buzzword that we, I think probably attack a lot here on the rock fight is it's kind of like, what is innovation? What does it mean? And it's like, and it's the bold swings.

And it's like, if I'm sitting here saying, he, listen, we need to do better on sustainability, it's like, well, it's going to take someone like you trying what you're trying in order to kind of get to the point, maybe this isn't the thing, but it definitely will help us, lead us to the thing, right? And without anybody even trying what are we doing?

Cam Brensinger

00:17:15.300 - 00:17:39.389

Yeah, yeah, well, you said longevity. I think that's the first responsibility. Right. It's just to make stuff that lasts.

Like if as an industry we're going to do nothing else and of course we're doing all kinds of things, but if we were going to do nothing else, I think the requirements should be only bring things to market that deserve to be in the market. So meaningfully improve what's out there and make them to last as long as possible. And those are core principles of ours.

Eoin Comerford

00:17:40.749 - 00:18:07.100

So back on sustainability, if there's one main function for a tent, it's to keep the rain out. And so for a long period of time, people didn't want to mess with any sort of DWR or what have you. Nemo.

I don't know if it was the first, but one of the first certainly to come out with, I guess it was carbon zero, right? Yeah. Was that a scary proposition to lead the way there?

Cam Brensinger

00:18:07.820 - 00:19:36.640

Well, you're triggering emotion in me right now. We've been so engaged with our industry trade association with many working groups around sustainability and things over the years.

It's been such a priority for us. We saw coming. The PFAS issue is really what you're getting at, Owen. Many years before that kind of reared its head.

And for maybe listeners who don't know, PFAS is these long chain fluorocarbons that are the forever chemicals that we hear about in the news. And they really kind of came into the spotlight in the last couple of years.

California, as is often the case, was the first to put forward regulation to ban them. And then our industry's kind of retail apparatus followed and said we're not going to carry PFAS stuff anymore. Well, we saw that coming.

So we, we planned PFAS out of our fabrics quite some time ago and, and were prepared for those regulations to pass in these recent years.

But boy, that was, that was, that was not an awesome moment for the industry because many big brands either didn't know that or didn't plan accordingly for it.

And so last year we saw just a massive amount of PFAS laden stuff dumped at a discount into the inventory, into the industry and perpetuate the inventory problems we've had coming out of the pandemic. So PFAS is a sore subject.

Eoin Comerford

00:19:37.520 - 00:19:50.120

Yeah. So I mean the dumping late last year in the tent category alone was, it was obscene and it's going to pull forward a whole bunch of demand.

That is going to be hard, make stuff hard this year, quite frankly.

Cam Brensinger

00:19:50.120 - 00:19:53.900

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was irresponsible and unfortunate for the industry.

Colin True

00:19:54.780 - 00:20:29.940

So last thing we want to talk to you about is we're recording this, like we mentioned, at a trade show. We're at Gway Connect, which is a unique trade show, let's just say it.

Owen and I have been commenting, you know, since we both came here for the first time last year. And for me it was sort of like a. I never got a chance to come during the time when I was working in the industry.

And then you are just realizing if you're not in meetings that boy, it is quiet in here. It is not. This is definitely an interesting show, but it is a trade show nonetheless. How do you view the current industry scene? What's important to Nemo were those old OR days essential to your growth? How do you view what you need and what the scene offers you right now?

Cam Brensinger

00:20:30.260 - 00:21:56.140

How many minutes did you say we have left? Yeah, well, enormous credit goes to GOA for recognizing their place in that ecosystem and being very successful at it.

I mean, through the disruption of the recent years, this show has continued to be successful and important. It's, it's quiet out there because this is a business show. This is, this is come here and get shit done.

And I think that's, you know, the retailers, you know, they're, they're, I think their most precious commodity is their time. And this is a, this is an extremely efficient event for them and we love it for that reason.

You know, GOA does a lot of work to keep the cost down for the, for the brands and kind of curates this whole experience to make it efficient. It is one little piece and what I think ultimately makes a healthy ecosystem for the industry.

And absolutely, I don't miss the OR show per se because it was masquerading as a trade show. This is a trade show.

The OR show is a major convening, marketing event, party, kind of knowledge sharing, community building events that I think a number of entities have tried to replace since I think we desperately need and I really hope we can find a lasting solution for that aspect.

Colin True

00:21:57.820 - 00:21:59.660

No. Or, or switchback for you guys?

Cam Brensinger

00:21:59.980 - 00:22:28.660

Well, we really like what switchback is up to and think there is, with some adjustments, there's a future for that. For one thing, it cannot be next week, it should be in August. But we do think there's a future for that.

But yeah, at the end of the day, it's only going to work if it reaches a critical mass. And that's going to require, I think, all of us remembering what value there was in convening and being ready to make that investment again.

Colin True

00:22:28.820 - 00:23:04.470

Yeah, we've talked a bunch about that, I think even on a podcast that came out when we're recording this. That.

Energy and that sort of the party, which became definitely, you know, a little much. But also that is kind of the thing that is missing too.

Like, that is like, how do we get in the room with each other and still, like, even if you're not doing business.

But it'd be interesting to see, like, to a group of people who maybe don't normally get to see what Nemo's up to, to see a curated collection of what is happening at Nemo. Right. And who might be walking by at a show like that. I mean, think about the.

Just all the different kinds of people or attracted when it was at its peak.

Cam Brensinger

00:23:04.470 - 00:23:04.710

Yeah.

Colin True

00:23:05.180 - 00:23:12.780

Even if we were more concerned with Bob Awards and bringing in Mack trucks to be in our booths and all the things that was happening back then.

Cam Brensinger

00:23:12.780 - 00:23:52.520

But, yeah, I agree in some ways it got out of hand. But I also think that there's so much squishy, intangible benefit that we got from that.

I think we're all feeling the lack of the marbles are slowly coming out of the jar there.

And I think the isolation and kind of the breakdown of communication, the compartmentalization between different groups in the industry, like, I think we're feeling that, but it's just so hard to put a finger on that. And I think that's why we're at risk of losing it, is because you can't. It's not exactly in the P and L, but it is. It's just buried.

It's behind the scenes.

Eoin Comerford

00:23:52.600 - 00:24:08.000

Right.

I mean, I would argue that some of the discounting that we've seen going on in D2C with these brands wouldn't have happened if we were still sitting across the table from each other at least twice a year and having to sort of justify our actions as retailers and brands.

Cam Brensinger

00:24:08.000 - 00:25:15.030

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot there we could say. But I would just say quickly, to me, the lifeblood of all of this is product innovation.

Like everything else in the flywheel follows that. Like, if we don't have that, we are not specialty. This whole world goes away. I think the OR show did a lot to inspire innovation. Right.

Like, just seeing your competitors there, seeing competition, seeing opportunity, being reminded, you know, of the. The inspiring values of the industry. Having all those athletes around, like, just the whole thing just stoked stuff. And.

And I think that breaks down a little bit in this era when there's so much private equity ownership, there's so much consolidation, there's so much isolation and it's, you know, I think about my own team.

I mean we're in some ways in the fringes of the industry being in the Northeast because so much of the group sort of the gravity is in the, is in the Rockies and in the west coast and we used to take a big portion of our team every year out to or and they'd be reminded like what we're doing, what our purpose is and we'd come back super pumped up and filled with ideas.

Eoin Comerford

00:25:15.830 - 00:25:38.750

And you talk about private equity there. One of the things that I notice in Nemo that I think is important is it still being a founder led company.

And maybe not, but I feel like if I look at a company, look at its level of innovation, the product that it puts out, I could probably pick out a founder led company from one that's private equity backed.

Cam Brensinger

00:25:38.750 - 00:26:11.790

Yep, yep, I agree. Yeah, yeah. I mean, in fact we are in the process right now of buying out.

So, so we had a few rounds of growth equity investment earlier in our, in our trajectory.

We never gave up control of the business and we're in the process of buying out the last of those shareholders and you know, the next two years should be fully family owned business. And yeah, it's the decisions we get to make.

The horizon we get to think at is I imagine completely different than, you know, if we were majority owned by an entity that wants a 2,3x return in a 3 year time frame.

Colin True

00:26:12.190 - 00:27:06.730

Well, I think that we're coming up with the era. We gotta remember the era, right? I mean you're coming out of the 90s when outdoor becomes hot, you know, brands start ascending.

You know, North Face shows you, oh my God, you can cross over to all these different categories. And then, you know, now we get these acquisitions of these big brands and they're ascending like we're gonna be the next billion dollar brand.

Yeah, I mean even as late as the 20, early 20 teens, when I was at Polar Tech sitting with brands, I heard that from people like we want to be the next big thing, we want to get acquired at this level. And in my back of my mind going, I think we found all the billion dollar brands we're probably going to have at this point.

And so, so I think there's a bit of mindset shift.

And now like folks like yourself now you crossed over considering where you started, but I would imagine thinking about someone, people have been on the show before like, like an Andrew at Liveson who's like starting like I just want to make a great brand and I want to own the great brand and make great product and if we make some money along the way and work with good people, like that's the win. And I wonder if that mindset shift is kind of coming back or starting up. Maybe that didn't exist before.

Cam Brensinger

00:27:06.890 - 00:27:12.650

I hope so. I mean I wish all of those folks tremendous success. I think we should.

Colin True

00:27:12.650 - 00:27:15.850

Unless you make tents, then Cam wishes you burn in hell and die.

Cam Brensinger

00:27:16.170 - 00:28:07.330

Great. No, please, no. We would truly we would welcome the competition that ultimately, you know, makes a healthy ecosystem.

You know, and I, and I don't I humbly put out there because I'm sure there are many factors but, but when I look back, I think we had a confluence of a few things there. The 2008 recession, how well the industry did kind of put us on the radar of a lot of folks.

And then we had, you know, so many of the iconic brands in our industry were founded by folks in the 70s. They hit retirement age not long after that 2008 recession and power to them wanted to have a nice cash out.

And retirement I think lives in and many other brands in here that are young entrepreneurial startups bringing fresh ideas and energy. We absolutely need that. Absolutely need that. All right, man.

Colin True

00:28:07.330 - 00:28:18.810

Well, thanks for joining us. Appreciate you coming on the show. Hope it's a good show for you.

We'll let you know what you missed at Switchback and you can just help that inform you decide next year and appreciate it. Thanks for making some time to hang out with us.

Cam Brensinger

00:28:18.890 - 00:28:21.290

Love what you're doing. Honored to be on. Thank you.

Colin True

00:28:21.570 - 00:30:08.360

Thanks, Cam.

Today's episode of the Rock Fight is presented by Oboz. Who wants to share their love of hiking and we want to help them by uncovering all the different reasons that we love to take the long walk.

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This will be the most comfortable thing that you will step on. You're listening to Rock Fight Radio. Oh, you got DJCT back with you spinning the hits.

And it's that time because we have another new song from that hit machine, Fitz. And Fitz wants to ask you why just settle for a smart sock when you can opt for a smarter sock.

Rock Fight Radio!

00:30:08.360 - 00:30:58.220

You've got a million choices lying on the floor Thin ones, thick ones even some you never wore but there's a sock who specs rise above the rest don't settle for a smart one when the smarter sock is best option for the smarter sock fits fits is the smarter sock fits Whole foot comfort is the answer to the question of the knit fits Opt for the smarter sock Whole foot comfort is the goal it's only common sense with four different pack tents the difference is immense.

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Tania Lown-Hecht

00:30:58.220 - 00:30:58.620

Fits.

Rock Fight Radio!

00:31:08.090 - 00:31:17.050

Opt for the smarter sock fits fits is the smarter sock fits Whole foot comfort is the answer to the question of the knit fits Opt for.

Colin True

00:31:17.050 - 00:31:34.350

The smarter sock fits and now back to the show. Okay, let's get into my conversation with Tonya Lone Hecht of the Outdoor Alliance.

Okay, everyone, Tanya Lone Hecht from the Outdoor alliance is back on the Rock Fight, which is your sign that something as terrible has happened in the world. Of our public lands.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:31:35.070 - 00:31:36.190

Sorry to see you again.

Colin True

00:31:37.230 - 00:32:10.490

Equally equally. We are recording this on Thursday, June 12 about noon Pacific time. So if anything else has come out about this by the time you hear. It, that's why we don't talk about it.

Because last night Senate Republicans introduced a spending bill that is proposing the sale of upwards of 3 million acres of public lands are put up for sale. And for a context that is four times the size of Rhode island, which.

Is a really arbitrary thing that people really throw out there, the size of Rhode Island. But, but I think in this, in this regard, I mean, it takes, it's. Like 60 miles, I think, across Rhode Island. So times four. That's a lot.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:32:11.050 - 00:32:11.530

Yeah.

Colin True

00:32:11.530 - 00:32:13.530

So can you walk us through what happened, Tanya?

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:32:14.330 - 00:34:13.000

Yeah. So basically, the last time we talked, the House had released a version of the same spending package. It had a bunch of public land sales in it.

The outdoor community and lots of other folks wrote to their lawmakers, fought back against that, told them it wasn't a good idea. The final bill that they passed didn't have any land sales.

So we did a great job getting it out, and we were feeling pretty good about advocacy working. And the Senate has to put together its own version of the bill. So yesterday they released the text of their version of this spending package.

And while we had expected it to be a little bit more moderate, maybe a little bit more reasonable than the House version, it was actually worse. As an escalation, it's a lot more extreme. This version of the bill mandates.

So it didn't just open it up, it makes it required that the Bureau of Land Management and the Forest Service sell off at least 0.5 and up to 0.75% of their land.

And this is like, it can basically be any land that isn't, doesn't have like a protective layer on it, like a national park or wilderness area, but anything else, all multiple use land is up for grabs, and it could basically be anywhere. It's at the discretion of the Secretary of Interior.

For the BLM lands, there's some hat tips to the fact that they want it to be about housing, about creating more potentially affordable housing. But there's lots of pieces written in that would allow, like, landowners to buy extra land if it's adjacent to their property.

So like, if you, you know, live in Jackson Hole and you would like to buy up a bunch of the land around your huge second home, then it opens up the ability for you to do that. And there's very few constraints in terms of the suggestion that it's for housing.

There's few constraints, constraints about what kind of land they can sell off and where they can sell it off and any requirements to make it into housing, stuff like that.

Colin True

00:34:13.240 - 00:34:17.160

So when you say it's required, is. That, does that mean, what does that mean?

Rock Fight Radio!

00:34:17.800 - 00:34:18.240

It's.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:34:18.240 - 00:34:25.600

I mean, it says in the bill that the land management agencies must dispose of this much land.

Colin True

00:34:25.680 - 00:34:31.120

So if the bill passes, it's not like a, hey, you can. It's a hey, you have to.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:34:31.600 - 00:34:32.960

Requires the sale.

Colin True

00:34:33.280 - 00:34:35.440

Is there a date, like a deadline on that?

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:34:35.840 - 00:34:47.109

There doesn't appear to be a deadline on that, although I think a lot of the time, the time frames are something that comes afterward when you're implementing the passage of a bill. So.

Colin True

00:34:48.389 - 00:35:01.029

So what do we understand? Do we have any understanding of the differences? Right. So the whole thing in the House proposal was. It was specific land in Utah, Nevada.

This a little bit more general. Is this retaliation for them having to. Pull it out of the House bill? Like, what do we think?

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:35:01.189 - 00:35:06.589

This is not retaliation. This is just. This is. So Mike Lee, senator from Utah, is the.

Colin True

00:35:06.589 - 00:35:09.149

He's getting a lot of mentions on rock fight pods these days. That's all.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:35:09.149 - 00:35:15.229

Yes, he really loves the idea of selling off public lands. He's really, really keen on it.

Colin True

00:35:15.780 - 00:35:20.260

So the government's keeping it from us. You know, they're keeping us. They're keeping it from our birthright. Tanya?

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:35:20.660 - 00:36:10.460

Yeah, so he is. This is his idea, I think, and he really just wants to see more land sold off. And so this is something that he introduced.

I don't think it's like, you know, he's not. It's not vengeance for getting out the amendments in the other bill. This is just.

And this is a much worse version, because at least in some of the prior bills and prior suggestions we've seen, it's like, if the BLM has categorized some lands as suitable for disposal, meaning the BLM has to look at all its land and say, you know, some of this land we could give away if we have to. This could be any land. It's not just land that they've identified that's suitable for disposal. It could be anything.

It could be, like, your favorite trail, your favorite campground, your favorite, like, dispersed camping spot. You know, it could be anywhere, which is really alarming.

Colin True

00:36:11.180 - 00:36:28.820

I just. I try to say the end game here. It's like, if you were. The thing about the United States, like, as kind of as much as we lead the world in all sorts of different things, and the population here and.

Everything, so much of our country is empty. Like, it's not like, hey, we are restricted in where we can build things. I mean, it's just like there's, you. Know, and it's like, when you.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:36:28.820 - 00:36:29.340

100.

Colin True

00:36:29.660 - 00:36:47.380

Mike Lee, you're from Utah. Have you driven through Utah? Like, I mean, and we're not lacking for building new places to build things. I don't know, it just, it just seems like such a weird fight to pick. I don't really get it.

And also, what's with all of these late night shenanigans? Like, why do they keep doing this at nighttime? They're in charge. Why do they have to hide?

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:36:47.380 - 00:36:59.300

They are in charge. Well, they're in charge, but they know some of this stuff is unpopular and they know in particular, I think, that public land sales are unpopular.

That's the thing that's a little bit baffling about this is they were so unpopular in the House version, they got stripped away.

Colin True

00:36:59.540 - 00:37:00.020

Yeah.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:37:00.420 - 00:37:25.810

A lot of people heard about it. A lot of people were really displeased. A lot of senators or a lot of House lawmakers were really displeased about the land sales being in there.

They were talking to their Senate colleagues and saying, no matter what happens, just be firm on this because we can't pass this. You know, it'll be a bloodbath for us.

And so the fact that the Senate has now introduced a version that's even more extreme is puzzling because it's so far off of what voters, red and blue voters want.

Colin True

00:37:26.290 - 00:37:33.410

Well, and I also don't know, what do you think you're hiding? Okay, so you. Hey, we're sneaking it in at one o' clock in the morning. I still wake up to an email from you.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:37:34.130 - 00:37:36.770

Yeah, I was like up till 1 o' clock in the morning.

Colin True

00:37:36.930 - 00:37:53.330

Thank you. On behalf of the outdoor community. Community. Thank you, Tanya. Well, the other thing that happened earlier this morning, I got a press release.

From the Land and Water Conservation Fund that was celebrating the fact that a hundred million dollar cut to the USDA Forest Legacy Program was removed from the House pass reconciliation bill.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:37:53.650 - 00:37:54.050

Yeah.

Colin True

00:37:54.050 - 00:38:03.860

Is that plus the fact that the Nevada Utah public lands cut were 86 from the bill? Is that a sign that we can sort of win this, you know, proposal as well?

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:38:04.340 - 00:38:11.860

We can win this. I am, I am cautiously optimistic that we can win this. But we do really need people to like call and write their senators.

Colin True

00:38:11.860 - 00:38:15.060

I can't get tired of doing that. Just because you did it once doesn't mean you don't. You have to do it again.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:38:15.540 - 00:39:01.310

It's really hard because you do feel like you're playing whack a mole a bit. You're like, okay, we got it, we conquered it. And then it's just going to come again. It's like a bad penny.

And we have to just keep calling and writing because the thing that's most important is, like, lawmakers are looking to their voters to figure out what their voters want and don't want.

And if they hear that their voters are really pissed off about something, they aren't going to do it because ultimately, the voters still have to, like, keep them in a job, and they're afraid of that, and so they want your vote.

And so if you're saying, hey, I'm, like, really, really pissed about this, even if you don't see them publicly change their mind, they may be going behind the scenes and asking other people who are in less precarious positions to change their votes or something. So it does really, really matter to write your lawmakers. And please keep it up.

Colin True

00:39:01.310 - 00:39:10.830

Yeah, I woke up to an email. From you and the Outdoor Alliance. I clicked the link, sent my emails. Off, and then I emailed Tanya and. Said, do you want to come on.

The podcast to talk about this?

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:39:11.470 - 00:39:13.310

Thank you for doing that. Yeah.

Colin True

00:39:13.950 - 00:39:42.379

Yeah. And so. But also, with everything going on in the world, it's. Everything is. We know distractions are being sown, chaos is being sown.

And so, yes, it's exhausting. This is one, though, where before you get out in protest this weekend for. You know, no Kings Day, hit that. Link, sign up for the Outdoor Alliances.

Or another organization that's doing the same thing, whatever. Make your voice be known to your. Representatives and then go protest. But don't forget to send your emails or call or write or whatever.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:39:42.379 - 00:39:44.780

Yep. Call. Right. We've made it really simple.

Colin True

00:39:45.660 - 00:39:49.900

Okay. All right, well, we'll keep an eye on it. Anything else we should. Anything else to talk about on this one?

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:39:50.380 - 00:40:08.350

No, you know, I guess the last thing is, like, there. There have been some ups and downs. Like, we've gotten some good news, we've gotten some bad things removed from. From the House bill.

We had some, like, temporary good news on a couple things. Things are really rolling up and down. It's hard to keep up. But the thing that feels very clear to me is that advocacy is continuing to work.

Colin True

00:40:08.510 - 00:40:08.910

Yeah.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:40:08.910 - 00:40:10.990

As long as people are doing it, it's working.

Colin True

00:40:11.550 - 00:40:14.670

That's good news. And we're sure on good news these days, so thank you for that.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:40:14.830 - 00:40:17.630

Yeah. Yeah. And I know there's so much going on right now.

Colin True

00:40:17.790 - 00:40:22.110

This is easy. You guys make it easy. Click the link, and then it's all you got to do. All right. Thanks, Tanya.

Tania Lown-Hecht

00:40:22.430 - 00:40:23.250

Thank you, Colin.

Colin True

00:40:24.280 - 00:40:55.150

All right, that's the show. No parting shot for today. Thanks to my guests Cam Brensinger and to Tanya Lone Hecht.

We want your emails, send them to myrockfightmail.com and the Rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight LLC. Today's episode was produced by me producer Dave, just sleeping on the job right now. Art direction provided by that Sarah.

For Owen Comerford, I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And here to take us out like he always is, even if he's on tour, which he is right now.

It's Chris D' Makes and he's here to sing the rock fight fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.

Chris DeMakes

00:41:07.390 - 00:41:55.930

Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.

We talk about human powered outdoors activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock flight Rock fight, rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight Rock fight Rock five.

Welcome to the rock fight Rock light, rock fight? Rock light, rock light, rock fight? Until the rock fight? Rock fight Rock fight, Rock fight.