Judging The Health Of Outdoor Media Plus: Everest FKT's & Pickleball Corner!
- colin7931
- May 28
- 40 min read
Today Colin is joined by outdoor journalist and host of Open Container Doug Schnitzspahn to talk about a couple of stories to come out of the outdoor community before taking a look at the current health of outdoor media. Here's today's docket!
Everest season comes to a close with multiple FKT attempts. (05:39)
Pickleball Corner returns because campgrounds are now building pickleball courts. Colin will offer his opinion after the blood stops gushing from his eyes. (12:15)
Is our outdoor media scene healthy? Colin and Doug take stock of the health of outdoor print, digital, and podcasts. (19:06)
Lastly for The Parting Shot, Colin reminds everyone heading to a trade show that you don't need to dress like you're about to go on an adventure. (44:17)
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Episode Transcript:
Colin True
00:00:00.800 - 00:02:09.800
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And even though we have our own consigliere who advises on other matters, we've got to consult a lawyer now and then on the legal structures that every business needs. But for a small business like ours, the cost to hire general counsel or pay your retainer is a non starter. So what's an outdoorsy founder to do?
I mean, come on, we're not flashing around that outside money. Enter Conatus Council.
They can help your business with fractional general counsel and legal services, from strategy consulting to advocacy and government affairs to real world implementation for outdoor recreation industry businesses. Forrest over at Conatus Council has helped Rock Fight navigate some of these areas.
And let me tell you, knowing someone has your back means you can focus on running your business. I mean, he had at least three edits to this read to quote unquote, protect us from ourselves. I mean, that's what I'm talking about.
So you got questions? Conatuscouncil.com is where you go to get in touch with Forrest. Hey, and the first six hours are free. Wait, what? I can't say that.
Oh, initial consultations are free. Okay, fine. Head to conatuscouncil.com today. Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True, and today Doug Schnitzbahn is opening his container with me.
Doug is here to talk about some headlines as well as weigh in on the state of outdoor media. Before we get to that, did you catch the top five apparel brands on this past Monday's episode of the Rock Fight?
If you missed it, go back and listen as we name the top five brands going in the outdoors right now. And lastly, are you heading to Switchback this June?
If so, be sure to put the Rock Fight live on your agenda for Tuesday, June 17th at 5 o' clock in the trailheads Theater. You'll get to hang out with myself and Shantae Owen. Producer Dave it's got to be the event of the summer. At the event of the summer.
Don't miss it and stick around. Be right back. You're listening to Rock Fight Radio.
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00:02:09.800 - 00:02:37.580
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Dough Schnitzspahn
00:02:37.580 - 00:02:38.060
Whoa.
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Colin True
00:03:07.200 - 00:03:49.250
Well, you got DJCT right here with you. And that was bolt sock. The first big hit we ever had from Fitz.
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It will be sure to put a smile on your toes. And now back to the show. All right, Doug Schnitzbahn is here. You can read his stuff in the latest issue of Mountain Gazette.
You can find any number of magazines he's published, including Elevation Outdoors. It was exit 205 and a new issue just came out, if I'm not mistaken or coming out.
Perhaps most importantly, you can hear him right, you hear him right here on the Rock Fight podcast network as the host of Open Container. What's up, Doug?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:03:49.570 - 00:03:51.330
Colin, good to be here.
Colin True
00:03:51.570 - 00:03:56.050
Yeah, man, good to have you on. What's, what's going on? What's happening over at Open Container right now?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:03:56.690 - 00:04:24.930
We have some great stuff up. The newest episode is with Betsy Gaines Quammen, who is the author of American Zion and True West.
She's talking about the Sagebrush Rebellion and the people who want to make public lands their own private places, as well as mythology of the West.
Also the week before had an amazing conversation with musician Greta Morgan, who lost the high end of her voice and found healing in the desert and has a new book out called the Lost Voice.
Colin True
00:04:26.200 - 00:04:59.780
Some other great episodes.
The one thing I liked as I was working on the episode with Betsy is because we've been talking about the public lands issue, but mostly in like, panic mode, right as like these things are coming up and we bring on, you know, Adam and Tanya from the Outdoor alliance and say, hey, what can we do?
Like, you know, get people involved, but the context around it and not like the history around it and sort of understanding this isn't just like an out of left field thing that like is happening now with the Republican led Congress. This is like been in the works, right? Like this is. This has been things that people have been talking about for decades, basically.
It was really interesting to hear Betsy talk about that.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:05:00.260 - 00:05:34.330
Yeah, the whole sage brush rebellion thing, taking away the public land, they really believe it is their right to do. You know, Mike Lee in Utah thinks that it's a. It's like a feudal state. He thinks that feudal.
That public lands are like a feudal state, which to me really overlooks the fact that we are the populace, we are the people and we want to be on these lands.
And most of the people who want to take them away and have them as their own would lock us out or make us pay surf wages to work on their public on their lands.
Colin True
00:05:34.890 - 00:05:52.720
All right, we'll link that in the show notes for sure. Make sure you guys are following open container. All right. Top stories today presented by your hub.
For ultralight gear garage grown gear, head to garagegrowingear.com check them out. First things.
Probably the last time we'll talk about Everest news until next year, hopefully anyway, because it gets a little more important to talk about Everest news.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:05:52.720 - 00:05:53.400
Hopefully. Yeah.
Colin True
00:05:53.400 - 00:06:16.210
I'm bringing it mostly because you're here. I want to hear your take on the scene of Everest. But the thing that was interesting, there were dueling attempts to set an FKT on Everest this year.
As of this recording, it looks like it won't happen due to high winds and dwindling safety in the Kumbu icefall. And I guess just yesterday, American Tyler Andrews turned around on his third and last go at the fkt. I don't know, man. Does a.
Does an Everest FKT do anything for you?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:06:16.450 - 00:06:28.610
I mean, it's. Sure. It's an amazing accomplishment, right? It takes amazing dedication. I wouldn't want to take anyone away from Tyler or anyone trying to do it.
Am I excited about it? Do I care? No.
Colin True
00:06:30.850 - 00:06:46.210
I mean, I guess it's better than standing in line for, you know, an entire day at like 28,500ft waiting for your turn to go. Stand at the top for 30 seconds. It'd be an interesting way to approach it as opposed to. Especially with the xenon gas.
Did you hear about the xenon gas people this year?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:06:46.210 - 00:07:39.230
I did hear about those guys, yeah. And again, great. That's great that they figured out how to do this.
But it seems I've been reading the incredible book into the Silence by Wade Davis, which goes through what I can't Recommend it enough, but it starts in World War I and really gets to the whole attempted ascent and loss of George Mallory on Everest. Uh, but it's deeper than that. And you read that book and you see these places as really aesthetic explorations.
Even though they were trying, you know, they wanted to conquer the mountain, of course, but there was also a certain beauty and difficulty to it now. And it seems like in the present day, we're just racking up new ways to try to do it.
You know, the xenon gas being the, you know, low point of that, I think, really, you know, how much can we modify our bodies to climb Everest faster? I don't know.
Colin True
00:07:39.790 - 00:08:09.520
The adventure always gets overlooked. I feel like now, I mean, like, you started coming up in outdoor journalism, like, during the heyday of Everest, right?
Like, late 90s, when it was like, that was, like, the thing to talk about. And it was cool.
And it was like, I found inspiration in all the Everest and big, big climb stories to go, like, do winter climbs in, like, the White Mountains, New Hampshire, thinking, like, oh, my God, I want to get out in the mountains and kind of be like, these people who are doing these big, audacious things. I mean, when you look at it to where we are now versus where we were, are you surprised at how it's evolved?
Is this kind of where you felt like it was always gonna end up going?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:08:09.840 - 00:08:46.100
Sadly, I think yes. I mean, it's just gonna become more and more of a, you know, a paid experience, right? A kind of paid thing you can go and do, which is really sad.
I mean, I think of, you know, talk about when I was coming up, I think of Marco Siffredi, you know, the French snowboarder who got to the top of the Hornbeam Koolwire, was gonna go down it and was never seen again. And despite his loss, there is something really brave and audacious about that, about him just going out there and snowboarding it, you know, and it.
It seems a. And now it's a business more than ever. More than even in the crack hour.
Colin True
00:08:46.100 - 00:09:17.620
Days, which I still. I think Shantae and I talked about this a couple weeks ago, like, I find weird, right?
Because if I'm going to pay for, like, an outdoor trip, like, I'm going to. I want to go on, like, a big, like, cushy river trip.
You know, it's like, let's do something really fun and, like, oh, and I don't have to do the dishes. I'm gonna have, like, a guide service, you know, like, that Makes sense to me. It's like, I'm paying. That's. That's like a paid adventure vacation.
I'm gonna climb a big mountain. I want to earn that. I want to, like, go and put my time in and learn to climb.
And, like, I have the skills to, like, get to the summit and not just be dragged up, you know, and paid a hundred thousand dollars in order to do it.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:09:17.860 - 00:10:26.600
Yeah. You know, and. And guides are incredible, right? Guides are amazing, and the work they do is amazing. I don't want to take any away from them either.
But if I were to go do Everest, I'd want to do it with a group of friends, because I believe for me, a lot of the climb would be the logistics, too. And figuring it out and figuring out with people I trust, I feel like that is the climb as well. I think that would be a different experience.
I'd want to go do it and do the Northridge where Mallory disappeared and was later found.
I would want to do something that really required relying on myself and the group of people I trusted to figure out the whole problem of the mountain. Now, on the other hand, I also think, you know, going with a guide is one of the classic ways to climb in the mountains.
Ever since people have been going up to the mountains. And I also think that for, you know, Everest in particular, you know, the Sherpa people, it really should be their mountain.
So, you know, much like something like Kilimanjaro, maybe we should get to a point where you can only go if you're, you know, with Sherpa guides or with people whose. Whose mountain it really should belong to.
Colin True
00:10:27.480 - 00:10:40.440
Yeah, I guess anybody. Any locals in Nepal right now. Want me to shut up. Right.
Because, like, this is how their economy is fueled basically by, you know, the people who come to pay to be taken up the mountain. I mean, did you ever have any aspirations?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:10:41.160 - 00:11:34.930
Absolutely. I'd still want to go. Yeah. I mean, I would. I would love to do it, but again, I'd like to do something.
You know, maybe I'd go do Broad Peak with a group of people I trusted or do something where I felt confident we could figure it out as a group and wouldn't have to be paying someone to drag us up there. But that's my opinion. I don't want to take away from anyone who wants to do things another way.
I think it's just another example, though, of how Eric Larson and I talked about this on Open container.
The planet's just shrinking faster and faster, and our access to wild places you know, and I think this comes up with the Sagebrush Rebellion people too, in public lands. I mean, they're still living back in the past 50 to 100 years ago when you know, you could have this space, you could do whatever you wanted with it.
And now there's just so much pressure with so many people and you can be online anywhere and it's just the world's different now.
Colin True
00:11:35.650 - 00:13:14.030
All right, our first story, garage was brought to you by Garage Drone Gear. Who is your go to hub for ultralight backpacking gear from the coolest and small ultralight brands out there.
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Speaking of climbing big mountains, you want to get the lightest certified ice axe in the world, go to garagegrowingear.com via the link in the show notes. That's quite a combo. You get small batch apparel, backpacking meals from trail goods. I've never tried those. And then a light axe, you can get it all.
Garage grown gear. All right, well, our next story is presented by Oboz, who loves hiking.
And as the cupid of the outdoors, Oboz wants you to love hiking just as much as they do. And for this story, it's been a minute since we have had an addition of pickleball corner here on the Rock Fight.
But per a press release by the camping app the dirt, the number one new amenity being added to the campgrounds in 2024 was indeed pickleball courts. Data collected by a survey held by Toyota Trucks shows that those surveyed.
Of those surveyed, 17% of private campgrounds that added amenities last year chose to install pickleball courts, which was twice as much as the second amenity added WI fi, which that's kind of surprising.
Also, according to the press release, pickleball courts were 29% more likely to add pickleball were to be added in 2024 than any other amenity, including swimming pools with hot tubs, dog parks, kayaks and canoes and bicycles. Look, man, when are we going to get an open container addressing the scourge of pickleball?
I think we should just have a fully dedicated rock Fight week about anti pickleball week.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:13:14.110 - 00:13:16.670
Yeah, we don't mention pickleball. That's what we do with pickleball.
Colin True
00:13:18.110 - 00:13:18.990
Have you ever played?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:13:19.870 - 00:13:24.630
I have played pickleball. Yeah. And you know, if pickleball is your Thing Good for you. That is.
Colin True
00:13:24.630 - 00:13:25.390
Yeah, totally.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:13:25.390 - 00:13:32.270
Do we need pickleball in campgrounds? I really don't know why that would be the biggest thing we're getting in campgrounds.
Colin True
00:13:32.510 - 00:13:34.030
More than kayaks or canoes.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:13:34.190 - 00:14:03.980
Yeah, exactly. Why? Why? I mean, great. Have fun however you want. I'll tell you. My family. My family has a history with pickleball, though. My mom is a.
Is a tennis purist, and she moved into this place, Anthem Ranch, here in Lafayette, Colorado, and, you know, was happy they had tennis courts. And then she just cannot stand the pickleballers. Just drive her out of her mind. It's kind of a family joke how much pickleball gets to my mom.
So I love.
Colin True
00:14:03.980 - 00:14:08.580
And she's in the demo for. They. They tell you that who should be looking to play pickleball, Right? Like, out of older folks.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:14:08.740 - 00:14:18.900
Yeah. She wants nothing to do with it. She complains about him all the time. She's mad that the pickleball. Oh, yeah.
She's mad that the pickleball courts have taken away from the tennis courts and the beauty of the game of tennis.
Colin True
00:14:19.700 - 00:14:37.430
Well, kudos to you, Mrs. Schnitzbahn, where that is. That is the right attitude. I didn't like pickleball before. I kind of hate it now. Like, I just like.
Like, even a swimming pool, like, if you go to a private campground, they have a swimming pool in the summertime. They're like, I've seen that plenty of places. We're like, no, no, no. You know what we're gonna do? We're at pickleball courts. Like, not cool.
Not into it.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:14:37.430 - 00:15:09.060
I'm gonna tell you. Colin, I know you've been wanting to hear this for a while, but when I hear pickleball courts and swimming pools. I grew up.
My grandparents were nudists in Pennsylvania. I grew up going to nudist camps in Pennsylvania in the 70s.
And first of all, the thing to know about nudist camps in Pennsylvania in the 70s was there was the people you did not want to see naked.
And second of all, I'm sure the nudist camps are adding pickleball courts because they had tennis courts and horseback riding and pinball and anything else you don't want to imagine naked people doing.
Colin True
00:15:09.540 - 00:15:14.820
Maybe it's time to bring back co ed naked. Remember those T shirts in the 80s and 90s? Coed Naked Pickleball?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:15:14.820 - 00:15:16.500
That's about the place for pickleball.
Colin True
00:15:17.860 - 00:15:25.890
Wait, you grew up going to pick. They have, like, kids programs and be like, what was going on? This sounds a little Shady, if I'm being honest.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:15:26.130 - 00:15:31.090
God bless the people who are nudists. But, yeah, it wasn't a fun place to be a kid.
Colin True
00:15:31.970 - 00:15:32.770
That's amazing.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:15:34.930 - 00:15:41.410
I appreciate the nudists for who they are. As I said, most of them, you really would not want to see naked.
Colin True
00:15:41.410 - 00:16:05.320
So I can see that this is probably a losing gripe on my part. Just like gripes Crocs has been over the course of the last 20 years. I've conceded. I've lost that battle.
I still think they make you look like a dumbass when you're wearing them, but obviously, like, billions of dollars can't be wrong. So I'm if all the new pickleball places opening up, including at campgrounds, I get it, but, man, I still don't like it.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:16:05.320 - 00:16:11.320
So maybe you can. It'll come out with a crocs for pickleball. A pickleball soul on your crocs.
Colin True
00:16:11.720 - 00:16:23.110
I think it might have. I feel like we may have already talked about it. If it hasn't, it will. You know, I'm sure that's in the works. The hey dudes, Crocs crossover.
That's all pickleball focus. Like that is, like, you know, a nightmare, but it's coming.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:16:23.430 - 00:16:30.550
But you know what I do like. What was that? Remember that beach game? That was just a paddle. It was just a paddle on a ball.
You play that on the beach now, that's a good game, that.
Colin True
00:16:30.550 - 00:16:31.270
And that's hard.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:16:31.670 - 00:16:33.190
That was. Yeah, that was a fun one.
Colin True
00:16:33.350 - 00:16:42.910
I did see a thing. Apparently it was some Instagram reels or something like that, but it was like a clinic, like an orthopedic clinic.
And they're saying that the number one cause of injury for, like, angles in that clinic was pickleball.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:16:42.910 - 00:16:49.650
Again, if people are getting active, if they love it, I don't want to take that away from them. But I don't want to see them playing naked either.
Colin True
00:16:51.810 - 00:17:12.690
Today's episode of the Rock Fight, presented by Oboz. Who wants to share their love of hiking?
We want to help them by uncovering all the different ways we love to take the long walk, including the following reasons. Number one, this week, campfire plus beer. Well, that equals instant philosopher. You're down with that? You're kind of. You're a Zen guy.
You know, you believe. You're into the Buddhist mantras. Campfire, beer. Does that work that way?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:17:12.770 - 00:17:16.090
Yeah, there might be another substance in involved there, too. I'm not sure.
Colin True
00:17:18.010 - 00:17:21.450
Number two, you could finally wear that bandana you bought in 2014.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:17:21.930 - 00:17:22.330
Really?
Colin True
00:17:22.810 - 00:17:34.250
Well, you know, if you're out hiking, sure. Everyone needs a bandana. That was like a.
Remember, like, working in, like, retail and then outdoor retail in the 90s, you have like the stack of like, three bandanas. Like, everyone just always buy them. I don't know, whatever anybody ever did with them, but I feel like that was the thing.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:17:34.250 - 00:17:35.450
The bandana is back.
Colin True
00:17:36.410 - 00:17:51.510
If not, they should be what they never should have left. Number three, mosquitoes. Hey, they keep you humble. That's true, actually. God, man, how many times do you like this?
So often will be not expecting the mosquitoes when they're. I'm in the most obvious place for mosquitoes, right?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:17:51.670 - 00:18:12.480
Oh, they come out. They're incredibly, incredibly good. Way to ruin a good day. Here's a Buddhist philosophy for you. There is one of my favorite haikus by Kobayashi.
Isa goes like this all the time. I pray to Buddha I can't stop killing mosquitoes.
Colin True
00:18:14.400 - 00:18:18.000
It's kind of a merge of the spiritual and the real world there, right? That's life.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:18:18.080 - 00:18:19.360
That's life. That's how it is.
Colin True
00:18:19.360 - 00:18:44.250
That's a good summation. Number four, hiking means the Bridger Boot collection.
The Bridger Ridge is here to help you smooth out the rough trails in front of you with enhanced stability and protection. The Bridger Ridge is Oboz's first boot with Gore Tex. So bring on the smiles and the miles and the Bridger Ridge.
And if you find yourself near Hadley, Massachusetts, or Keene, New Hampshire, this summer, pop into Sam's Outdoor Outfitters. You can get your own pair of Obo's Bridger Ridges. I've been to both those locations. Great stores.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:18:44.250 - 00:18:46.930
Love Keene. Love that area. Mount Monadnock nearby.
Colin True
00:18:46.930 - 00:19:53.100
Yeah, not far. Pac Manadnoc, a little further to the east. This hiking appreciation moment is brought to you by oboz of Bozeman, Montana, certified B Corp.
6 million tree planter and inhabitant of the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem system. Oboz is the maker of premium quality footwear for the trail and the cupid to the outdoor world. Oboz. Love hiking.
All right, our main story today is presented by Lem's Footwear, who's looking for retailers to come say hi and see what Lem's can offer their shoe wall when they exhibit at Switchback next month. And for those of you who may not be familiar, like we said at the top, Doug, you've been working in outdoor media since, God, the 1990s, right?
I mean, kind of got your start back in the heyday. You've operated all sorts of capacities.
Writer, editor, Publisher, and you've worked on the community side of things as well as the industry side of things. I think last time you're on, we were talking about Bob Woodward and Snooze. And so you've definitely kind of been across the spectrum here.
So the point is, if you ever want to dig into what's happening in outdoor media, Doug's the guy to talk to. So let's just start broadly as we kind of start. I want to take a peek at outdoor media in general today with you here.
So when you look back over your career, how do you summarize where things sit today compared to where you started?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:19:54.140 - 00:21:46.920
You know, I think where I started, I just missed the super glory days. Right. I just was at the end of that. You know, I got into outdoor.
You know, I got into the idea that I could write for magazines and travel around the world because of my buddy Mike Finkel, who was writing this Alpine Circus column for Skiing magazine. He was going off to ski Iran, China, you know, all over the world.
He kind of pioneered this idea of, like, adventure skiing in these faraway places and. And had this incredible charisma and ability to talk to people all over the world and connect with them.
And, you know, it's about the same time that the crack hour, you know, Thin Air came out. Mark Bryant was at Outside. I think Outside was at its peak of this place of incredible, like, fun adventure storytelling, the world being open.
And you got paid well for it at that time, too, right? So that was a just an incredible time to be there. And there were so many outlets, so many ways to do it. You know, I first tried getting in.
I was living in Rome, and I was traveling to Corsica, and Corsica is an incredible destination. And I was trying to write about Corsica for a National Geographic Adventure for my friend. Michael Frank was an editor there.
Wasn't my friend at the time, but. But I contacted him and he wanted me to write this story.
I was all excited that my career was going to take off when I wrote this big Nat Geo adventure story about Corsica. And I kept emailing him and calling him, and he was like, yeah, you know, just, we're going to do it, we're going to do it.
We got a big Europe package coming up, and it's just like, just chill out. And then finally I emailed him one time, and I got this email back. It's like, I am no longer at National Geographic Adventure.
I'm now moving to Forbes for vehicles editing. And I was like, oh, my God. And it said, please contact That's a gig, though, right?
Colin True
00:21:46.920 - 00:21:48.040
Is that part of the gig?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:21:48.200 - 00:21:59.160
Yeah. And it said, please contact Jerry Beelinson to continue. And I sent Jerry messages and phone calls and never heard from him.
Later became friends with him, however. But that's kind of the way.
Colin True
00:21:59.160 - 00:21:59.880
Did you write that story?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:22:00.280 - 00:22:32.160
I never got to write that story, unfortunately. I did write about Corsica for some. There was a startup.
You know, there was also all these crazy startup websites at the time I worked for, like in 2000, 2001, maybe. One was called followtherabbit.com and it was like this travel site. Yeah, yeah. And there was another one called Soul Gear.
I read for this website called Soul Gear. There was a startout one, this guy, Scott Banerjee. I never. I don't know what happened to those guys at all. I just kind of disappeared.
But there were those opportunities. Then you were able to get in on.
Colin True
00:22:32.240 - 00:22:43.900
Well, and then one day we're going to do the oral history on Rockfight Co of the Hooked on the Outdoors. And then there was her dad, Joyce Simmons. We're going to. We got to go deep on that.
There's a lot of stories that we need to tell, but I wouldn't have time for that today.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:22:43.980 - 00:22:49.100
The beautiful rise. The beautiful rise and quick downfall of Hooked on the Outdoors. Yes.
Colin True
00:22:49.340 - 00:24:10.390
Well, so sitting from where I sat, where I was in the industry, but on the brand and retail side and everything you're saying, like, lines up with how, like, as the person experiencing those things. Right. Of, like, just. It was a companion to, like, you know, fuel wanting to go out and do more things. Right.
Kind of our conversation about Everest, like reading all those media pieces, all the things happening, and it was still pretty new and fresh, even though I understand what you're saying about. It was a little.
Maybe just passed when it was really original, but it was still, you know, there was still a pretty small community of people who are going to do these things. Oh, yeah. And so it was such an important part. I still credit reading an article about the middle fork of the Salmon river. And Backpacker was a.
It was a rafting trip description in backpacker. But it was just this thing of like, I'm like, this is before I even moved to New England. I'm in Pennsylvania going, you can do that.
Like, that's a thing. You know, like didn't even occur to me that that could be a thing.
And I remember that being that is stuck in my head as something that kind of helped for me. And then you fast forward today, and it's just radically different.
And look, I understand, like, media in general has undergone incredible shifts and changes. That's well documented and that's across the board.
But when you talk about just a category that is so primed for such interesting things to talk about and growth opportunities for just being a human as well as just fun, you'd think, I don't know, it kind of shocks me sometimes when I think about how it is today versus how it was then.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:24:11.010 - 00:26:01.410
Yeah, it's sad. I mean, I think what happened is, I mean, I think magazines and publishing, all that stuff was still in its heyday.
You know, print was in its heyday, what, in the 2000s still, for a while.
And really the problem was, I don't know if it was a problem, if it was even solvable, that, you know, the online stuff was just kind of pushed to the side and no one really thought about how to deal with it. There wasn't a lot of foresight on how much digital was going to take over. Right. So would just put stuff up on digital.
And I think it was when that first started that people missed the chance to monetize it. And that really put a lot of brands under. But I think at the same time, no one really understood how to monetize it.
I can't tell you how many times in media at that time someone came up with this big scheme that people were going to pay for stuff online. And the truth of the matter is, the way the Internet started, the beauty of it was it was this free and open resource.
So the idea that you were going to get people to pay for anything online at its very start was sort of broken. You know, that's not what people were there for. And then I believe, you know, publications, especially traditional magazines, rely on advertising.
And once advertisers realized that, you know, they could advertise cheaper online or they could tell their own story online without having the help of magazines. I mean, I think that really was the death knell for a lot of traditional print magazines as advertisers pulled out.
And then I think you have a new generation of people with magazines disappearing and losing their influence who just want to look at stuff online. And it's a really tough battle for print not to stay relevant, but to stay active as a business.
Colin True
00:26:01.730 - 00:26:19.580
So that's kind of what I want to look at. Right. And I've broken it down into those basically those same three categories, and I'm going to throw one more into it. You have.
You have print, you have digital. I'm going to add podcasts as its own thing because it's kind of like the growing part of media.
And obviously it's a little self serving considering we're on a podcast. But I think it's an important component thing to consider when we're talking about this. Who's that?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:26:19.980 - 00:26:21.340
Everybody's got a podcast.
Colin True
00:26:21.580 - 00:26:45.440
Well, you know, it's not hard to get one, but those, you know, this is where, you know, the big entities where media companies and brands play.
I mean, we could talk about social media too, but I feel like when I talk, when talking about the outdoors, probably the best social accounts I'd argue are more individually driven.
Not that, you know, there aren't brands or entities that do a good job, but like when I talk about, think about the, what drives the conversation in the outdoors, I think it's more in the print, digital and podcast side.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:26:45.520 - 00:26:46.160
Absolutely.
Colin True
00:26:46.160 - 00:28:48.470
So I'm going to state the category, give it a little rating, and then you can agree or disagree with me. All right, so first is print. And I'm going to say that print is. And this is.
I definitely you, you could disagree with me here, but I feel like print is sneaky healthy in that it's not what it once was and kind of like you just described. But I mean, what print category is what it once was. I love what you said about the Internet because people forget.
So easy to Monday morning quarterback it now and look back and be like, man, you should have monetized from the get go. But that wasn't there wasn't even, it didn't even feel like it was on the table. And it's so funny to think about now.
Like, my homepage of our living in New Hampshire was Boston.com, which was basically the daily digital version of getting the Boston Globe for free. And no one once probably for five years said, hey, we should probably put a, put a paywall on this.
And before you know it, oh my God, what's happening? Well, no one wants to pay for the thing anymore because they get it for free.
So I mean, obviously the print landscape in general has changed across the board, but when you step back and look at it, I think right now in the outdoors, print has a pretty clear definition audience and kind of amazing options. Right. 10 years ago.
You know, it's easy to kind of, you know, you look at, you know, a lot of people look at what's going on with outside and I'm sure we're going to talk about them a little bit, but like the last four or five years have been their own thing to talk about. But it wasn't like that outside was, like, killing it. Like, the magazine had sort of declined through the 2010s, right?
It wasn't what it once was, you know, and I think right now, if you're interested in outdoor storytelling, you do have really good options, because folks like Mountain Gazette and Adventure Journal and Trails and, you know, the Summit Journal and all these folks are powders coming back. People have figured out how to do it in the. In the new sort of reality.
And, you know, it's like, I think if whoever first said, hey, you don't need to have one of these once a month or once a week, and if you could do it four times a year, and it can be really good and people will pay for that, and you get to do it on a smaller level. That was sort of the moment pipe things flip. So I do feel like it's not what it was compared to was it's radically different.
But generally speaking, I feel like print's pretty kind of in a healthy spot right now. What do you think?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:28:48.630 - 00:30:47.970
Absolutely. You know, and on Open Container, Art talked about this with both Mike Roge and Steve Kazmiro.
And I think the thing is, people are hungry for the kind of stuff they could get in print and what they're not hungry for.
The problem was print really, I think in 2000s especially, really started to try to look like websites with all the listicles with the abs with all this stuff that's really better served online, if you want to find that. But what people really still want are the deep, good, meaningful stories.
I can't tell you how amazing it is for me to write something for Mountain Gazette. And like, just yesterday, I got a message from someone on LinkedIn who I hadn't been connected to, who told me he read my story about.
About fishing and my dad in New Jersey and that he, you know, spent all this time fishing with his dad, who now has prostate cancer, and he wants to connect to him. You know, other stories I've written from Mountain Gazette, you know, I've got notes from Germany.
You know, people want to read and be affected by things. And as a writer, I. I want what I write to matter to people, to affect them in some way.
And I think that those magazines we're talking about, Mountain Gazette, Adventure Journal, Trails, they're still doing that. They're still giving that need out. And I think it's a myth, too, that young people don't want that.
Sure, young people interact on their phones far more than other people, and they're better at interacting with their phones than we are in different ways and getting information there. But, you know, I have kids who are 18 and 21 and they still, you know, read. They still want to find this stuff.
You know, they like vinyl, they like having a beautiful magazine, a beautiful art piece.
You know, they're overwhelmed by the digital stuff and they're overwhelmed by being told that that's all they can do is, you know, have the shortest attention span. And I think that's really discounting Gen Z when you say that especially.
Colin True
00:30:48.450 - 00:31:12.130
No, I think my kids probably handle being online better than my wife and I do. You know, and I think. I'm not saying there aren't problems with kids and social media. Clearly it's a contributing. But I kind of.
I don't know, I just feel like it's the. The generational thing that for us it was, you know, AC DC and video games. Right? You know, like, oh, no, they're all gonna. Right, they're right.
Oh, the devil speaking to them while they play yards.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:31:12.370 - 00:31:18.140
What was the tipper. What was the Tipper Gore thing? The getting rid of the double music. Yeah, that's right. Exactly.
Colin True
00:31:18.380 - 00:31:37.900
And for this generation, it's social media. And I don't know if we plan a day to go outside and do something that doesn't involve phones. I don't know. My kids kind of go along with that.
Do they sit around and look at their phone for probably hours on ends on some days when my wife and I are busy with other things, sure. But what was I doing at their age? I was probably watching he man reruns. You know what I mean?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:31:39.420 - 00:31:41.260
Lighting things on fire. I don't know.
Colin True
00:31:41.580 - 00:31:45.340
Well, right. There was definitely some pyromania in our Gen X.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:31:45.740 - 00:31:48.700
You know what happens when you put a tennis ball in gasoline?
Colin True
00:31:49.420 - 00:32:34.780
What could happen if I did this? Yeah. Safer for them to be looking at TikTok for an hour and a half. But anyway, I'm with you on that.
And I think that's actually a good sort of lead into. The second category is digital, which I'm reading as absolute disaster. I think digital content for outdoor enthusiasts sucks. All right?
And I say this and look, you know, the prints up for as good as it is, it's just as bad on the digital side. And here's the context for that is that for other interests that I have, I kind of have like daily drivers. Right.
Websites I'll go to, whether it's sports, pop culture, news, politics, whatever it is, I have options, right? And it's like, oh, what's happening. Oh, what were the score? I missed the games last night.
I'm going to like ESPN or like, oh, what's happening in culture. I'll go to the ringer, whatever it is.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:32:34.780 - 00:32:35.460
Yeah, yeah.
Colin True
00:32:35.460 - 00:33:16.310
There is nothing for the outdoors that, that I feel like is worthy of that status. And I think both of the big players gear junkie and outside. I don't provide a great experience and I'm not even talking about the content yet.
I'm talking about the experience. They're not a fun website to go and visit and when talking about the content, I could pick some nits there too. But I think it's an opportunity.
I'm not just trying to beat those guys up. I think it's an opportunity. I feel like that is still what is the spot where it's like, oh, did you see this on right.
Oh, Doug, did you see that latest thing on. And it's not just another sponsored article or just, you know, some sort of lame run back of a listicle. Right. I think that's an opportunity.
What do you, what do you think about the digital side?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:33:16.310 - 00:34:07.850
Yeah, I think, I think it's. It's still a really tough space to compete in. Right.
Because how are you going to drive digital traffic always seems to be the problem when people talk about media finding this way to do it. You know, people want it paid. You know, they want like a paid membership and people don't want to.
Again, people don't want to pay, you know, unless it's the New York Times maybe or something really good. Right. So they're not going to do that. And yeah, how, you know, how do you drive people to content?
I mean, I think did digital for news, for breaking news. You'll still go and read those stories if you want them, but it's really hard to get people to go to just pure digital content. As you say.
You just have those couple of websites you go to and your attention spans about that. Social media, does it really drive people to stories? That's a tough question most of the time, I think.
I mean honestly, how often do you go to a link in a bio like it's an extra step that you're not going to do, right?
Colin True
00:34:07.930 - 00:34:08.650
Almost never.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:34:08.810 - 00:34:51.400
Yeah. I mean how often do you follow a link in social media? It doesn't happen that often unless it's put in a real or something.
Maybe, you know, for our podcast. Of course people are going to go to those, but they should. I think it's just hard to get people to go to digital. Yeah. And you're right.
I, I'm not sure where the, you know, where the news is coming from. I'm not sure. You know, I think it speaks to the, it's a national problem too, right.
Where people getting their news, they're just getting what they want to hear from their own little community. Oh.
That said, I think there are, you know, I think some people in social media do a good job of, you know, getting news there and trying to drive traffic digitally, but it's tough.
Colin True
00:34:51.400 - 00:36:01.200
Yeah, well, and I look at, I still think it's an opportunity. I look at what the folks like at Escape Collective are doing and that is a subscriber based platform.
I think it's a matter of kind of maybe re envisioning what it should be in terms of resources or how often you have to put something out or the care that goes into the story.
I'm not sure, I'm not saying I have all of the answers, answers here, but I feel like for a, you know, again, a $1.2 trillion economy that we like to tout around, and I understand that's a, that is a number that is fraught with complication. There's a way to do it. And I, and I just feel like it has not been tapped yet.
And I'm wondering, I think the, it's being held back by, you know, the, the nervous nervousness around saying the wrong thing or people not wanting to have an opinion or just kind of go the more basic route of like there's these sort of guardrails that have been put in place that didn't used to exist back in the time when you were describing 90s. Right.
It was just like, you know, it was a little more open to kind of talk about stuff and, and take a risk and not worry about the, you know, the someone disagreeing with you.
It just feels like everything that kind of gets published now has to have like a 98% universal acceptance rate right before for order to make it on some of these bigger platforms. Kind of make it out into the universe.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:36:01.200 - 00:36:01.560
Yeah.
Colin True
00:36:01.560 - 00:36:03.080
And I think that's really holding it back.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:36:03.400 - 00:36:34.320
Well, and also think about when you're going to digital content.
You're already so drained by the time you've got to spend, you know, the time you got to spend in front of your own laptop, the time you have to spend on social, posting your own social stuff.
The time you've spent, you know, scrolling through the phone while you're taking a dump and should just be doing that in silence and you know, 8 million other times you're so overwhelmed by the, by this digital world that it's tough to want to then go and find more stuff online that you're going to focus on. Right?
Colin True
00:36:34.810 - 00:37:46.750
Yeah. Next one is podcasts. All right. So yeah, yeah, I'm going to rate that on the rise. I'm not going to pump our tires too much.
I think pods are in a similar position as digital and you can make the argument that they're part of digital. Yeah. I think the beauty of the pod is that they're effectively tailor made content.
You know, if you're doing your pod right, there's an audience out there for you now you can decide if you know if you want it to be bigger or not. And if you need to try to attract a larger audience, that's on you, the creator. But outdoor pods, I think there's an issue right now.
There's still, it's still kind of like amateur hour, right? I think most individuals making pod are. It's mostly individuals making podcasts, which is part of what makes my podcast interesting.
But it also continues to be an opportunity and I still think that again, look at the sort of underserved nature of the category. I think pods are going to. And like, I think we're trying to. That's exactly what we're trying to prove here at rockflight. Right.
That we're trying to kind of create a network and sort of like step into that place and like fill that void with interesting voices that frankly, like I look about you and Shantae and Justin and people we brought on the pod from the outdoor media world.
I feel like you guys are the most interesting voices out there that have largely just been held at arm's length and say, hey, write us another listicle for a long time. And I think that's where the podcast can really make a difference.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:37:47.550 - 00:39:21.850
Yeah, I think it's a tough one. We gotta be careful because we don't wanna pump ourselves up too much.
But I would say, like I was saying before, you know, I think people are, are so tired of all the using their eyeballs. Right. I've got to look at all these screens or whatever. So it does seem that podcasts are really popular with people.
I am really impressed and surprised by how much feedback open containers getting, how much I hear about how I was joking around on Rock Fight the other day and might have said something that sounded bad for my buddy Chris Denny. He was an amazing person and just incredible. And he was like, oh, I can't believe you said that. I was like, oh, it's just a joke.
But these, you know, Rock Fight carries a lot of weight in the outdoor world. Now. Not to, again, not to pump us up too much, but that's just what I'm hearing. And I think a lot of it is. Comes from that exhaustion. Right.
That people are so tired of reading these things. A podcast is great to just put on and relax to almost, or drive to or whatever.
You know, I think if you look at outdoor podcasts, I still think that a normal cast and I think Dirtbag Diaries, Fitz K.
Hall have just been, I mean, totally just been doing such an incredible job for so long and have such great dedicated audience and really, really know how to do it and get people involved. And I think there's a lot of. I'm excited to be working in podcasts.
I'm excited to be listening, working in a medium where I feel like people are listening and tuning in and being affected by it, because that's what you want as a media person, creator, writer, whatever we are.
Colin True
00:39:22.410 - 00:40:08.440
I still, but again, to kind of turn it around. I, I don't think we're doing enough either. I think there's.
This is, this is the, this might be the category that can grow the most in the next 10 years. Right. For. For the outdoors. I don't know. But I just, you know, I, it is a. When I look at what others are doing, I think more could be done. And I'm so.
I'm almost like welcoming competition. So I guess there's where the self serving part ends, where I like, I'm not just saying, hey, we're doing it the best.
And she only listen to what we're doing. It's like, there's room for more. Right? And it's like. And there's, and it's, and there's.
Because, because everybody wants something different from the pods they listen to. I guarantee you there are plenty of people out there who hate the rock fight. That's a good thing, right? It shouldn't, it shouldn't be for everybody.
So anyway, I just think that's something that, I think that is maybe the highest upside of the things that are going on right now in outdoor media. Yeah.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:40:08.440 - 00:40:29.940
And I think there's some people, you know, I think that you could still do a really good niche podcast too, or individual podcast. I know there's Taryn o' Donnell, who follows us a lot. She's got her tearing podcast where she talks to women.
She does such a great job, you know, with that. So. And, and she's doing that on her own. You know, I think there. I think there's really a lot of great voices out there that are. They're being heard.
Colin True
00:40:30.340 - 00:40:32.740
Oh, Rick Saez has been doing his thing for Rick Saez.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:40:32.740 - 00:40:41.860
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you don't have to be, you know, I think it does serve the, you know, that anyone can start doing it and be effective is really amazing.
Colin True
00:40:42.820 - 00:41:06.640
Well, it's second nature. I think those guys, what they do, like, they're.
They call themselves an industry podcast, too, but I think they talk about stuff in the industry that's different than what we talk about in the. Like, that's a perfect example right there. It's like, there's no reason, you know, I love that they exist.
It kind of validates what we do because it's, you know, it's like, hey, more people are interested in listening to outdoor industry stuff. You know, I think what. What you're doing on Open Container is. Is interesting.
And just stay tuned, everybody, for Shantae's podcast, which is coming, which is going to blow us all out of the water.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:41:06.640 - 00:41:14.160
Shantae's top. Yeah, it is going to be popular, as you can tell, since she's already beating us with her list of big cities as best outdoor towns.
Colin True
00:41:14.160 - 00:41:23.900
Makes me so mad. What's wrong with the rock fight listeners? Like, how's Shantae in the lead with our Outdoor Town draft? I mean, I thought.
I thought you for sure, like Sean, like Scott New York on there. There's no way Shantae's gonna.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:41:23.900 - 00:41:27.820
I think we might have split the. Split the core vote, and she got the city slickers.
Colin True
00:41:27.980 - 00:42:26.970
We'll probably wrap up the voting for that later this week, But I, I don't know if maybe one of us can rally. Anybody out there hasn't voted yet. Go vote for the Outdoor Town draft. So. So Doug or I can win. But I guess to wrap this up, like, I, I don't know.
I kind of look at this as. I think this does come back to. We need to. We need to toughen up a little bit. I think this is where I.
We don't look at the ourselves in the outdoor industry and community the same way other categories do, where we face discourse with trepidation as opposed to, hey, criticism is normal. And we are talking about an industry that's worth a lot of money. And it's like, you know, at some point, it does come down to that.
It's not, you know, we act like we're doing everything for free a lot of times, and the way we talk about things and cover things and we. Our feelings get hurt or whatever it is. It's like, look, we can be passionate and critical.
And I think that is something that is missing in the outdoor space. I think that is that. I think that would benefit us to kind of level up a little bit in the approach to how all these things are covered.
That's sort of my, my two cents about where the outdoor media scene is right now.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:42:27.130 - 00:43:09.140
Yeah. And it's even more, more important than ever that we need to get our voices out there.
I mean, it feels like, you know, there's an attack just not on public lands, but on the whole outdoor industry, where tariffs are threatening to wipe out all these small businesses. You know, public land sales are threatening to take away the places we rely on. The lack of centralized trade shows is taking away the way we gather.
So this whole thing that used to be this cohesive industry is really spread out thin now. So it's really more important than ever that we have a lot of voices that get together and talk about issues that matter to us in different ways.
Colin True
00:43:09.620 - 00:43:12.980
Well, there you go. We solved outdoor media today.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:43:13.380 - 00:43:39.440
And I would say one other thing I'd say too, is we're pumping our entires on the podcast thing. But there's a reason I'm here, because I feel the excitement. I feel like podcasts are exciting.
I feel like it's a new form, a form that does what I want to do as a media creator, to use that word. But I want to reach people. I want what I'm saying to resonate with them. I want to connect with them. I want to bring up issues.
And it really feels like a great platform to do it right now. And that's why I'm here.
Colin True
00:43:39.440 - 00:45:19.680
We love having you, buddy. So glad you're here. All right, well, big things are coming this fall at Lems.
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Swing by their booth, meet the team and get a first look at what's ahead, especially you retail buyers. Go see what Lemz has going on. The fit on the LEM shoes is spectacular.
And then in the meantime, you can Explore more@lemshoes.com It's time for a party shot. All right. For my parting shot, I'm going to. We're going to.
Instead of Being all kind of like, I don't know what we were just doing on outdoor media, I'm going to piss some people off because trade show season is upon us.
So over the coming weeks, brands, retailers and media members and conservation groups are gonna be gathering at places like Goa Connect, regional rep shows, outdoor retailers, switchback, et cetera.
So for my parting shot, I'd like to tell all those people listening who will be heading to those places that you don't need to dress like you're going out on an adventure. I understand the want and need to present to the public.
As an outdoorsy person, it's cool when I'm in an airport or somewhere else and I spot someone wearing like a plaid button down shirt and like a five panel flat brim hat and a pair of chacos and I can look at them and say, hey, there's one of my people. I know what that person's all about.
But when you're at an outdoor event, we know you're part of the tribe so you can relax and dress like a normal person. You could put on a pair of Chucks or some vans, right? Wear some pants or shorts made from cotton. You know, maybe a solid black T shirt.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:45:19.680 - 00:45:27.320
Concert T shirts. Concert T shirts, yeah. Burn Brody Casmiro, Shannon Walton. We also used to do that at or like have your concert T shirt day.
Colin True
00:45:27.320 - 00:45:28.480
Concert tees, great one.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:45:28.480 - 00:45:29.640
Wear your concert tee.
Colin True
00:45:30.140 - 00:45:49.260
It's your chance to go nuts.
I just have always found it funny when I walk into a trade show hall that is half filled with folks that look like they're dressed for their first day on a river trip. So embrace the normal outdoor folks. Trade show season is the one time of year when we can all do that. That's my parting shot.
I refuse to wear outdoor shoes to a trade show. No way. Oh, I'm wearing my Chuck Taylor's or something else.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:45:49.260 - 00:45:50.860
Docs. We'll see you there in docs.
Colin True
00:45:51.820 - 00:45:57.140
Yes, actually that should be required for all Rock Fight personnel. Gotta wear your doc Martens.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:45:57.620 - 00:46:00.340
This is my daughter's thing is outdoor goth.
Colin True
00:46:01.380 - 00:46:03.260
That should be a thing. Can we make that a thing?
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:46:03.260 - 00:46:04.660
She's making it a thing. It is a thing.
Colin True
00:46:04.660 - 00:46:06.980
I have a feeling like producer Dave's daughter might be in on that too.
Dough Schnitzspahn
00:46:07.140 - 00:46:09.380
Go to the Arc' teryx in Boulder and talk to her.
Colin True
00:46:10.500 - 00:46:33.470
All right, that's the show. Send your emails to myrockfightmail.com the Rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight LLC. For Doug Schnitzbahn, I'm Colin True.
Thanks for listening and you know what? I'm gonna wear a Leston Jake concert tee to a show this spring based on this conversation alone.
Cause Chris Demaicz is here, the official voice of the Rock Fight podcast network. And he's gonna sing the Rock Fight Fight song. We'll see you next time, Rock Fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:46:33.470 - 00:47:29.170
Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth Places sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree we talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music the latest movie reviews Ideas that aim for the head this is where we speak our truth this is where we speak our truth Rock flight Rock flight Rock Rock fight welcome to the rock fight Rock fight Rock fight welcome to the rock flight Rock flight Rock fight Rock flight, Rock fight Rock fight welcome to the rock fight Rock fight Rock fight.
Colin True
00:47:31.730 - 00:47:32.290
Rock.
