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Today on The Rock Fight (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Colin and Justin run through several of the stories that are dominating the current conversation in the outdoor community.
First on the list is the significant impact of the ongoing wildfires in Los Angeles. Colin and Justin discuss their personal connections to LA as well as the alarming frequency of such events, emphasizing the need for awareness and action in the face of climate change.
Then they are joined by consigliere to The Rock Fight, Eoin Comerford, to discuss the implications of REI's recent decision to shut down its Experiences division as well as the fall out from the Park City Ski Patrol strike that was resolved last week.
Lastly Justin pays tribute to The Endless Summer's Mike Hynson who passed away this past weekend at 82 before they wrap things up with The Parting Shot.
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Help those who have been impacted by the Los Angeles wildfires by clicking here.
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Episode Transcript
Chris DeMakes
00:00:00.080 - 00:00:07.460
Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Flight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:00:08.400 - 00:00:25.592
Welcome to the Rock Flight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True, and joining me today, he and Vail Resorts just figured out their latest collective bargaining agreement. So he's back from his strike. It's Justin Ousman.
Justin Housman
00:00:25.656 - 00:00:35.720
Yeah, they're still paying me $0, but I feel like I earned, you know, I feel like I got what I wanted out of the deal, which is a hat. Sent me a hat. I'm not going to say anything bad about.
Colin True
00:00:35.760 - 00:00:38.632
You might have gotten more than some actual employees over there if that was the case.
Justin Housman
00:00:38.736 - 00:00:47.592
Yeah, right. Sounds like it. It was funny listening to that.
Listening to our show from last week where we talked about it, I still, like, couldn't believe how little they paid us to keep control of people.
Colin True
00:00:47.776 - 00:00:49.384
21 bucks is ridiculous.
Justin Housman
00:00:49.512 - 00:01:01.990
I knew that at one point I'd say something about how I could make more than that or at least the same amount of my local grocery store. And then sure enough, I said it in the show and. Yeah, and I was like in disbelief about that, but it's true.
Colin True
00:01:02.330 - 00:01:33.406
Well, today on the show, like I mentioned, we're going to talk about the LA fires. Of course, it's the. The topic of the day.
We also have our Rock Fight consiglier, Owen Cumberford joining us later on to talk about the REI shutting down their experiences division, as well as a little bit of the Veil Ski Resort, the. The ski. The Park City Ski Patroller strike resolution. But before we get to that, some housekeeping and programming reminders.
Just a reminder that we do want your emails. Send them to myrockflightmail.com what's your feedback? Do you want to yell at us? Do you want to laugh at us? Do you want to get along with us?
Do you want to hang out with us?
Justin Housman
00:01:33.478 - 00:01:33.998
I don't know.
Colin True
00:01:34.054 - 00:02:08.730
Just send it on over easy. You know, Justin's address is just kidding. If you missed Monday's episode of the Rock Fight, be sure to go check it out.
Owen joined on that one as well.
And we spoke to Wiley and Josh from Rumple, broke the news of their new management switch up over there, and then come back this Friday because I have a conversation coming up with Andrea Kelly, who's the founder of a organization called make plus Equal, where we're going to talk about the business upside for brands who add plus sizes to their product lines. Justin, what, what do, what do you. What else do we have going on at Rock the Rock, the worldwide headquarters of Rock Fight.
Justin Housman
00:02:08.850 - 00:02:13.930
Well, folks, have you subscribed to the Rock Fight weekly newsletter? If not, I have not.
Colin True
00:02:13.970 - 00:02:14.714
Tell me about it.
Justin Housman
00:02:14.802 - 00:02:49.142
Well, it's full of wonderful content you can't get anywhere else other than into your email inbox unless. Oh my God. Unless we send it to you on your own. I guess. Either way, it's still going to go to your email inbox. What do we got in there?
We got good stories, we got some essays occasionally. We got some fun AI based camp stories and action figures and all kinds of fun stuff. Trust me, you're gonna love it. Comes out every Tuesday.
There might be an occasional special edition here and there, but yeah, it's. I'll just go ahead and say it's the best newsletter in the outdoor business, in the outdoor industry. Wouldn't you agree, Colin?
Colin True
00:02:49.206 - 00:02:50.886
I would. And you know what else is cool about it?
Justin Housman
00:02:50.958 - 00:02:51.526
What's that?
Colin True
00:02:51.598 - 00:02:52.342
It's free.
Justin Housman
00:02:52.446 - 00:02:56.710
It is 100% free for now. It is 100% free today.
Colin True
00:02:56.830 - 00:02:58.950
Get it while it' free, everybody.
Justin Housman
00:03:00.410 - 00:03:28.322
Anyway, head over to RockFi Co and you'll get a little popup, as you might expect. And you just click right there where it says join the mailing list and then we'll take it from there. You're not going to want to miss out.
And if you're new around here, we would love to have you subscribe and join the Rock Fight by hitting the follow button on whatever podcast app you are listening to us on. And while you're doing that, go ahead and give us that five star rating. We, we've, we've earned it, I think.
And I think, you know, maybe even a six if you could somehow work that in, maybe you send an email on the back end. I don't know.
Colin True
00:03:28.426 - 00:03:32.430
Yeah, podcast. I want to give this show six stars. How do I do that?
Justin Housman
00:03:32.470 - 00:03:38.958
Yeah, what do I do here? Anyway, we would love to have you follow us, subscribe and give us that five star rating.
Colin True
00:03:39.134 - 00:03:52.846
Hey. Lastly, before we get into the the episode here, the Rock Fight's open for business folks.
If you want to seek out some advertising opportunities on this show, check out our media kit and rate card by heading to Rockfight Co. Reach on out. You can send another email to myrockfight gmail.com.
Justin Housman
00:03:52.918 - 00:04:00.654
Yeah, I know, I know we're not supposed to reveal this kind of information, but all the people that advertise with us, they're seeing thousand percent profit increases.
Colin True
00:04:00.702 - 00:04:01.090
Yep.
Justin Housman
00:04:01.150 - 00:04:04.570
Yeah, I mean it's, it's incredible.
Colin True
00:04:04.650 - 00:04:08.858
Yeah, we're going to be featured in Forbes for the effective advertising that we're doing.
Justin Housman
00:04:08.994 - 00:04:17.710
Yeah, we did sign an NDA about that, Colin, so that's probably going to get killed, but yeah, you got it. I mean, don't miss out, folks.
Colin True
00:04:18.930 - 00:05:34.050
All right, let's get into our top story for today, which is presented by your hub for ultralight gear Garage growing gear. The top story is the Palisades fire and all the wildfires happening in Los Angeles.
You know, I don't think I need to spend too much time summarizing our lead story. It has become the story of the moment around the world, which is at this time, as we're recording this on January 13th, it's still burning.
These fires are still burning in and around the city of Los Angeles. Longtime Rock Fight listeners know that Justin is from California.
I've lived here for just shy of five years, but I'd say that LA is a very important place to both of us. As we record this, another round of Santa Ana winds are poised to hit Southern California, including where I live.
So hopefully there are no fires that flare up down here. But it's kind of put everybody on edge. It's all anyone can really talk about for, for good reason.
You know, I guess we want to talk a little bit about, about what it, what it kind of means and what it, how it pertains to outdoor activities. If you go to hockey. Hiking guide.com, who's a Southern California YouTuber, primarily posts a lot of, you know, video hiking guys.
Really great channel actually. You should check it out. But he put up a video last week showing the impacts of the fires in the LA area and how it's hitting areas with trails.
And it's a fair amount of that because obviously where it started, I don't know. Justin, where do you want to begin with this one?
Justin Housman
00:05:35.950 - 00:09:20.810
I mean, hear you say that just now, Colin, about how, you know, you're, you're going to be getting the Santa strong. Santa Ana wins as well.
Like today, in the next couple days just makes me feel like, I mean, honestly, this could be, you guys could be out evacuating in the next like week. You know, you just never know. That's never, that's just what's going on now in California.
And you know, one of the things that I'm always surprised by when I go to Southern California, which isn't often, is how like rugged Los Angeles is like, you know, you, it's, that's flat by the ocean.
But I mean, it doesn't, you don't go inland Very far before you start hitting these like really rugged, complicated canyon systems and stuff like that.
I mean, it's just kind of set up to have these like, raging fires just like rush through burning from east to west, especially with the winds like this. And so I don't, I don't think a lot of people who haven't spent much time in Southern California realize that, that, that L.
A is surrounded by mountains. And so when these fire hit, you know, typically fires like to climb up things, not go down.
But it just the nature of the, of the, of the wind, it's, it's just, it's unbelievable.
But I, I guess like the only thing that, that I, I can really think about in times like this is just what a reminder this is of how, you know, the entire, the entire outdoor experience, the entire outdoor industry is built on the back of like a very favorable and, and like stable climate system that everybody sort of assumed to be there forever.
You know, I mean, whether it's ski resorts that like wouldn't even fathom the idea that, you know, prolonged droughts would, would eat into snowpack and maybe have no snow years and maybe now you're a mountain bike resort, not a ski resort. And all these kinds of things, I mean these things that we take for granted aren't fixed.
They're, you know, the earth is changing for better or worse all the time.
And it's just a reminder, I think that like, this is tenuous, you know, and like, I wouldn't say that you shouldn't fall too in love with like places that you like to hike and surf and all these sorts of things, but you just never know what's going to change. I remember reading the poet Gary Snyder, he had a really, really cool line once about hiking in the Sierra.
And he just like an offhand remark in his poem about how the Sierra will one day be desert. And like every geologist and every, you know, ecologist knows that just the nature of how things will shift climate wise.
And you're like, yeah, I guess that's probably true, you know, and it's, it's just a.
I don't know what to do with this information, but I just think it's important to remember that, that these things aren't forever, you know, and that the places that you love to adventure in are every, they're all subject to change more now than ever. I mean, I just wrote a story for National Parks Traveler about how rising sea levels is affecting a lot of different parks on the West Coast.
But part of the research that I looked into for that was some sc Channel Islands, the University of Channel Islands State University, which is down kind of near Ventura.
They, you know, they, they have maps now that show, you know, what, what rising sea level will do to beach access in the next, like, you know, 100 years and we lose. California loses like a ton of beach access points. And it's, you know, just a reminder that, that, like, surf spots will change.
Beaches that you use, that you used to love going to will be gone. New ones will form, I guess, you know, it just, it's just all in motion and, you know, it's like we're lucky to have it when we have it.
But if you spend your entire life outdoors and, and building a love affair for natural places, I mean, these are the places that are going to be most affected by things like wildfire, by natural disasters.
So again, don't know what to do with that information other than, I guess, like, hold the places that you love closely, you know, because you don't really know when all of a sudden the trail you've been riding every day for 20 years is just going to be burnt.
Colin True
00:09:21.170 - 00:09:31.530
Well, I really do hope we'll see some sort of shift. I mean, I understand if you look at how things have progressed in the last 20 years, you know, we have a lot of data to go off of now.
Justin Housman
00:09:31.570 - 00:09:31.722
Right.
Colin True
00:09:31.746 - 00:10:00.692
I mean, one thing in that video I referenced from, you know, hiking hiking guy.com, he talked about how just this past October, there's an area called Chantry Flat that had just reopened after being closed for four years from another wildfire. You know, that's the.
If there's something to take away from again, this happening in Los Angeles, it's a little like Hurricane Helene happening in Asheville, North Carolina, or Hurricane Sandy happening in Manhattan.
And like all of these kinds of things that are happening now, we have a track record of these things happening in places where they're not supposed to happen.
Justin Housman
00:10:00.796 - 00:10:01.172
Yeah.
Colin True
00:10:01.236 - 00:10:02.468
And so how do you predict for.
Justin Housman
00:10:02.524 - 00:10:04.228
Like, how do you deal with that? I mean, like.
Colin True
00:10:04.284 - 00:10:29.104
Well, it's not to say. Well, this is like, it's the, It's a great point. Like how do you deal with it?
But it also is if we need any more evidence that, you know, something is going on. I mean, it just reported. Was it last week. We were just looking at before we hit record about how, you know, we are.
We have achieve that 1.5 centigrade, you know, temperature rise that everybody's been saying is like the, you can't go past point. If we want to save what we currently have. Well, we're past that now.
Justin Housman
00:10:29.192 - 00:10:29.680
Yeah.
Colin True
00:10:29.760 - 00:10:40.384
So, you know, whether it's, you know, doing what you can on a daily basis or, you know, lobbying for an immediate increase in nuclear energy, which is kind of what I'm thinking I'm going to start doing.
Justin Housman
00:10:40.472 - 00:10:40.912
Right.
Colin True
00:10:41.016 - 00:10:59.326
Like, because that's, like, that's the fastest way to getting off of oil. And if we can reduce emissions, maybe we can recoup something in the next 50 years. But it also feels completely.
To your point, like, I don't know what to do because it seems like, you know, the current political landscape makes it impossible to see any hope of this changing in our lifetimes anyway.
Justin Housman
00:10:59.438 - 00:12:32.230
Well, I mean, we've been whistling past the graveyard here for. For decades now, and I don't even know if this sort of thing changes that. You know, like, I don't know what it takes.
I mean, if you lose your home, you know, if you lose or, you know, I read.
I read a story in the New York Times this weekend about a, like, a scientist who worked at Caltech in Pasadena, and they moved a couple years ago, fearing fire in that area. And sure enough, that house that they had is gone, but they moved to North Carolina, you know, and, like, had to deal with the flooding there.
But, you know, you can make. Well, that's the thing. It's like, we're in terms of affecting, like, outdoor. The outdoor space. I mean, the places that people want to go to are the.
Are the places that are the most, like, prone to these sorts of disasters. Right. I mean, like. Like, it's.
I mean, remember a few years ago, South Lake Tahoe was almost burned, you know, and, like, it's probably going to be at some point, you know, where I live. Yeah, it has to be. You know, I mean, it's. We like to think we get enough rain, but, I mean, it's not.
It's not supposed to rain here for, like, another. There's no rain at all in the forecast. And if it hits, like, August and it hasn't rained again, like, it's going to be like tinderbox out here.
You know, this is. We could be having the same conversation about my house burn. And, you know, like, it's. It's. And so it's like, what do you do?
Do you change your calculations for where you want to live and where you want to play and what you want to do? You know, like, I don't. I don't.
At this point, I have no idea where we would relocate to if we Needed to, because not, you know, your first thoughts are mountains. But it's like, well, I don't know anymore, you know, I have no idea.
Colin True
00:12:32.390 - 00:12:39.090
I don't want to take a heavy situation in a conversation and make a little lighthearted, but you realize this could be your opportunity to move to Hawaii. Final.
Justin Housman
00:12:39.450 - 00:12:48.178
See. Well, yeah, but I mean, Hawaii is running out. Like they run out of water, you know, like they, like Maui.
Yeah, yeah, but it's not like they're immune or like.
Colin True
00:12:48.314 - 00:12:51.458
No, I know. No, yeah, look at what happened last year on Maui. It's a good point.
Justin Housman
00:12:51.514 - 00:13:16.108
Right.
And, and as the endless like, you know, everything burns in California and everything floods in the east, like things are going to cost more to make and it's going to be cost even more to get it in Hawaii. And it doesn't even matter because there'll be like economic calamities that we haven't even experienced.
I mean, what happens now with the billions and billions of dollars going to take to rebuild Pacific Palisades?
Everyone, you know, in California, including you and me, we're all going to lose our homeowners insurance probably this year, probably because of it, you know.
Colin True
00:13:16.164 - 00:13:16.332
Right.
Justin Housman
00:13:16.356 - 00:13:55.548
So like, what does that mean? Like we can't live. We can't. We literally would have to move.
Like, it's just, it's astounding what it's going to do to reshape like classic kind of adventure hubs, I think because they're all going to be victim with, to of, of various kinds of climate change things that we are not really ready to deal with because we all just want to go about our day. Like what? I'm not going to do anything different today than I did a year ago today based on the Palisades fires.
I drove my girl to school in my V6 truck. It's not very far, but it was freezing cold this morning. I didn't feel like riding the bike.
You know, it's like at no point did I go, oh dang, climate change, fossil fuel. And make a direct link. And then my behavior didn't change, you know.
Colin True
00:13:55.604 - 00:13:57.484
Right. So like convenience wins out.
Justin Housman
00:13:57.572 - 00:14:19.610
Yeah. And so, you know, you bring up a good point about things like, like really that your our best bet is a lobby politically.
I mean that's, that's by far the most impact that we can have. So you support thing, you know, if you want to support things like protect our winters, great.
You know, but, but really we need to, you need to make sure that we're like getting people in office. They're going to actually do something about it. Unfortunately, that's not going to be the case for at least four years.
Colin True
00:14:20.070 - 00:14:22.030
So that is the case.
Justin Housman
00:14:22.150 - 00:14:37.120
Buckle up. But I don't know. I don't know what to say or what to think or what to do. I guess you don't really have to say anything. You know, you just.
I feel really, my heart goes out to all these people. I don't know what I would do if my little town burned. I can't imagine the, like, pain and sorrow I'd feel.
Colin True
00:14:37.240 - 00:15:04.750
Well, and that's kind of the thing, right? I mean, there have been towns that have burned, like, at the Front Range, Colorado, in the last few years.
You know, it happened here, obviously, in California, especially up near Ventura, like, and, you know, there are homes that were lost. But just the scale of what we're seeing in a city, the second largest city in the United States, I mean, it's.
I mean, if there's, if anything's gonna shake us out of this and maybe start maybe taking some action, this. This should be something. But it's already being politicized in so many bad ways, you know, that it's, like, ridiculous, you know?
Justin Housman
00:15:05.290 - 00:15:05.762
Yeah.
Colin True
00:15:05.826 - 00:15:35.316
So. Well, later this week we are going to talk to outdoor journalists. A author, a friend of the podcast, Shantae Celebr, who's based in la.
She was evacuated last week. Her home seems to be, at least for the moment, has been spared. But she has been spearheading some fundraising efforts in the city.
So we're going to bring her on. Are you going to join with that one? I forget. Did we say. Yeah, that'll be. We'll have that up either later this week or early next week.
That spreadsheet she's putting together, that. That's linked in the show notes. So if you can spare a few bucks, there's plenty of people out there who really need it right now.
Justin Housman
00:15:35.388 - 00:15:37.940
Spreadsheet about where you can, how you can help, how you can up go.
Colin True
00:15:37.980 - 00:15:43.300
Fund me's a whole variety of different things. So we, we definitely appreciate any support you can give.
Justin Housman
00:15:43.420 - 00:16:08.830
I also hate this kind of thing because it's like I'd never been to Altadena. And now that. And like, now that I'm.
Look, you know, I've spent some time researching it and hearing such great things about it, how sad people are that it's. I don't know if it's, like, all gone or just a lot of. It's gone. Like, a lot of businesses got torched. And, man, it seemed like a really cool place.
Like, I get it. I get why people want to live there. Like Pasadena, same deal. Like, like eastern Pasadena is really, really cool and you know, God, it sucks.
Colin True
00:16:08.990 - 00:17:01.384
Yeah. I'm not just to go off for a second because I. And I. And sorry for anybody listening who is.
We catch some heat from talking probably a little bit too much about California sometimes. Louisiana's cool. I mean the cool thing about la, it is a massive city.
Like I said, second biggest city in the US but you're exactly what you just said.
I probably visited there a of times where you realize, oh wait, there's 10,000 foot peaks surrounding this incredibly large and diverse city with the ocean and then all of these pockets of interesting places with trails.
And that's kind of drove it home of like what actually burned down and how these were places that are like go to mountain bike trails, go to hiking trails for tons of outdoor enthusiasts in Southern California. And it's just LA is a really special place and everybody has their opinion about it and I get that. And that's fine.
When you're a big city with a big reputation, you're going to develop a lot of haters. But, but this is, this is rough on all sorts of levels, especially when it comes to the outdoor side of things. For sure.
Justin Housman
00:17:01.472 - 00:17:20.072
Yeah. I mean I, I would think that that zone probably had such epic trails.
I like when orange parts of Orange county burn pretty, pretty regularly and like in the Laguna area and man, that's just, that's just loaded with mountain bike trails. Like so much better than anything you can get a Marin and you know, and I don't know, you know, we, we did stories at age they might.
Colin True
00:17:20.096 - 00:17:21.816
Kick you out of Marin for saying that you would be careful.
Justin Housman
00:17:21.848 - 00:17:51.840
Oh, they know what everybody here complains. I know but, but like we did a story about like what happened when it, what happens when a trail burns.
And I don't think a lot of people think about that. It's like, well, the trees burned like what? You know, but like the trail still there. But it's just, it's sort of like it's.
You lose the, like you often lose it. Like the trail can be gone. The ground is different. I mean it's, it's.
These fires are so freaking hot and even still, even if it's still there at the end, like do you really want to ride to like a scorched earth situation? Yeah, it's just a whole different thing. So. Yeah, I don't know.
Colin True
00:17:51.960 - 00:18:06.752
All right, well, we'll keep talking about it as we get more information Today's top story was presented by Garage Grown Gear, which is your one stop shop for ultralight backpacking gear. Their specialty small and cottage outdoor brands. Hundreds of wildly cool products to help you lighten pack.
Justin Housman
00:18:06.896 - 00:18:07.984
Wildly cool.
Colin True
00:18:08.112 - 00:18:41.962
Wildly cool.
And this ad read comes from a recent and real customer testimonial that was left on garagegrowngear.com David on that site wrote, GGG is everything REI wants to be and everything Amazon can never be. You occasionally might find the same gear somewhere else a teensy bit cheaper.
But if you care about the Internet not sucking, it's well worth the money to spend it here instead. Cottage brands or not, GGG is doing the work of finding good gear and having reviews you can actually trust and aren't spam nonsense.
It's my favorite place to buy anything on the Internet.
Justin Housman
00:18:42.026 - 00:19:00.872
Wild David, that's a good one. Yeah, you know what? That's it right there.
Generally speaking, folks, if you care about the Internet or just things in general, not sucking, sometimes you have to spend a little bit more money and be a little more thoughtful about it. But that, like that, that is the rock fights freaking like mantra like seriously should suck less. So let's do what you can to help that.
Colin True
00:19:01.056 - 00:19:14.986
So if you want to have the same shopping experience that David had, head to garagegrowngear.com and start shopping today. All right, let's get into our conversation with Owen about REI experiences and.
Justin Housman
00:19:15.058 - 00:19:19.066
Yeah, come on over, folks. Come on in. Come on into this little conversation that we already had. Come on over.
Colin True
00:19:19.218 - 00:19:21.242
What was the other thing? Oh, Vail. We talked about, we talked about Park.
Justin Housman
00:19:21.266 - 00:19:27.510
City Ski and Vail. Yes, that's right. And the ludicrousness of skiing costs these days.
Colin True
00:19:33.010 - 00:19:43.246
Well, joining Justin and I now is outdoor industry insider and consigliere to the Rock Fight, Owen Comerford. Oh, and your first appearance on Wednesday with Justin and I. Welcome to the Wednesday show.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:43.398 - 00:19:50.050
It's. Yeah, the people are just gonna be so sick of me. It's just. Yeah, it's true.
Colin True
00:19:50.790 - 00:19:54.142
So we should leave you Mondays only. That's it. That's all that we're doing from here on.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:54.166 - 00:19:58.010
I don't know, unless there's just like an outcry. This is, you know, more, more.
Justin Housman
00:19:58.470 - 00:20:05.130
We're hearing this more and more from our, from our, from in our emails. More. Owen, that'll be our first, our first.
Colin True
00:20:05.170 - 00:20:08.154
Merch for Rock Fight. Just hashtag more Comerford. That'll be the.
Justin Housman
00:20:08.242 - 00:20:16.154
God, you know what? I. I'm gonna say it. I've never bothered to Google it. I Don't know what consigliere means. Yeah.
Colin True
00:20:16.202 - 00:20:17.146
Should we just hang up now?
Justin Housman
00:20:17.218 - 00:20:23.626
I'm not. This sounds like a neat. This sounds like a vaguely Mafia, there you go sort of thing, but, like. And I'm. I'm out here.
Colin True
00:20:23.698 - 00:20:25.310
Have you seen the Godfather?
Eoin Comerford
00:20:26.130 - 00:20:31.306
Kind of like yours, like a sort of a trusted second in command kind of.
Justin Housman
00:20:31.378 - 00:20:31.706
Okay.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:31.738 - 00:20:32.192
Yeah.
Justin Housman
00:20:32.306 - 00:20:32.740
All right.
Colin True
00:20:32.780 - 00:20:36.756
Robert Duvall was. Was Don Corleone's consiglierian. The Godfather.
Justin Housman
00:20:36.788 - 00:20:38.676
I have never seen the Godfather.
Colin True
00:20:38.788 - 00:20:39.604
Oh, my God.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:39.652 - 00:20:40.480
Come on.
Justin Housman
00:20:40.780 - 00:20:54.916
It just happens. It just. It's just one of those things that just happens. I'd love to. I like. I do like Mafia movies. It's just. I'm not going to remember this today.
I'm gonna watch the Rams game tonight, so I'm not watching it tonight. By tomorrow, I've forgotten this conversation. And that's how it's been for the. For my entire life with the Godfather.
Colin True
00:20:55.028 - 00:20:59.028
I'm sorry I could end like that. We're not gonna let you forget it now. Multiple times a week.
Justin Housman
00:20:59.084 - 00:21:06.698
I only. Recently. I only saw Goodfellas for the first time, like, two years ago. It's not like. I'm not like. I don't necessarily seek out the. The Mafia movie.
Colin True
00:21:06.714 - 00:21:07.610
Yeah, but it was awesome, right?
Justin Housman
00:21:07.650 - 00:21:11.990
Dude, it's one of the. It's like, I probably watched. I watched it, like, two times in a row. It's so good.
Colin True
00:21:12.290 - 00:21:19.114
I would say if you're gonna watch only one, I would probably say you should watch. Goodfellas is a more entertaining film, but the Godfather is.
Justin Housman
00:21:19.202 - 00:21:24.954
Yeah, I'll watch it. I promise. And then I'll get you. Then I'll finally be able to appreciate the Casiglieri term.
Colin True
00:21:25.042 - 00:21:30.954
Of course, of all the. The people out there who say that our podcast is a little too bro. Y. This is only getting worse. If we're talking about the Godfather.
Justin Housman
00:21:31.002 - 00:21:32.650
Yeah, but I've never seen it, so that's next.
Eoin Comerford
00:21:32.690 - 00:21:33.322
Scarface.
Justin Housman
00:21:33.386 - 00:21:38.438
We're opening it up to people that, like May is a safe space for people who haven't seen the classic dude films.
Colin True
00:21:38.454 - 00:21:39.974
I guess that's true.
Justin Housman
00:21:40.022 - 00:21:40.342
Yeah.
Colin True
00:21:40.406 - 00:22:48.274
All right, well, let's. Let's get into a couple topics here. Why we asked Owen to join us on Wednesday.
So, last week, news broke that REI would be shutting down its Experiences business.
Experiences launched as REI Adventures in 1987 and was designed to be an adult adventure travel program that provided guided trips for activities like hiking, biking, climbing, and kayaking. Adventures was rebranded AS experiences in 2022 after ending trips outside the US in 2020.
Last week's news means that 80 full time employees and 248 part timers will lose their jobs.
And according to REI company, it's according to a REI company wide letter sent by CEO Eric Arts, the shuttering of experiences is being is being attributed to the fact that the business was losing, quote, millions of dollars every year.
There's obviously the, I guess purely business way to look at this, but as everything has to do with the outdoor industry, there is an emotional side as well. So I guess let's start with the business side.
Oh, and if you take Eric Arts at face value, I think this is, I mean, it's a pretty simple decision, right? It might sound kind of cold and we'll get to the emotional side, like I said, but at some point it's just math. I mean, would you agree with that?
Eoin Comerford
00:22:48.362 - 00:24:55.130
Clearly it's about cash flow right now with rei. It was interesting. I posted on this and in some of the comments, one person said, hey, I love the idea of this REI experiences. I've never used it.
And if getting rid of it basically means that we have a healthier co op for a longer time and it's about the survival of the co op, than I get it and I'm all for it. So that was an interesting commentary and it got me thinking, well, how tough is it from a cash flow perspective?
Because as I think you talked about on this podcast, they did a lease buyback in all of their FCS late last year. And even in this announcement, Eric Arts actually referred to the fact that they were getting close on profitability and on positive free cash flow.
Now, I've never heard anybody from REI use the words free cash flow in a sentence before. So it tells me that really cash is king right now within rei.
And so they're turning over pretty much every rock that they can to right the ship from a cash perspective. So obviously there were the corporate layoffs earlier in the year.
They restructured their store retail teams to cut some positions to make that more efficient. They've cut this. They're going after the return people or people who are abusing the return policy. It does feel like it's like all hands on deck.
Let's cut the bleeding from a cash perspective for the company. One interesting thing that I can't quite figure out is they have zero debt on the books.
You look at their audited financials, zero debt on the balance sheet.
And that tells me that potentially, and I don't know this, this is me totally speculating here, potentially taking on debt as A co op or based on the charter of this co op is problematic because, quite frankly, that would be the easy answer, right? They're a big company. They do billions of dollars a year.
They should be able to go out and get a fair amount of debt to see them through the tough spots, but they're not doing that. So that tells me what's going on here.
Justin Housman
00:24:56.790 - 00:25:58.100
I have a question, which is something that occurred to me after you and I talked about this the other day. Colin and Owen, I think you could probably shed some light on it.
I'm sure there are complicated ways to do this, but one of the things I was wondering is if you're a CEO or you're anybody who's looking at the financials of a big corporation like this and trying to kind of see where there's savings to be made. I'm wondering if there's a way to quantify how much money people that took these REI experiences ended up spending at rei. Like, I mean, I.
Like, I can see how. I'd just be wondering how they would know it's losing millions of dollars. I mean, is that. Is that because they. They. Like, what's the.
Of course it's going to lose millions dollars because you're spending money on it. I mean, unless it's just people aren't signing up and paying for them or.
Or, you know, I'm not really sure how the structure of the experiences thing worked, but I'm just wondering if. If they can quantify that.
Like, okay, we spent $3 million this year program, but we project that these people will buy $3 billion worth of shoes and parkas in the next, like, two years. Like, is there a way for a brand to do something like that?
Eoin Comerford
00:25:58.640 - 00:26:59.590
He could. The challenge is the causality, right? Is it like, hey, is this person.
Does this person go on REI adventures and experiences because they're a really loyal customer? Or they're. Or are they a really loyal customer because they went on REI adventures and experiences? So it is tricky.
I think you could do, like, a comparison potentially, to say, okay, here's a set of people that do and who don't, and what are the implications there from a cost perspective and a revenue perspective? But in the announcement, they did say that they served 40,000 customers last year, which is. That's a chunk of people. But that.
That is only, I think they said, 0.4% of all members of their members. Right? So it is a pretty small group in the grand scheme of things. So is it really going to impact revenues suddenly if this goes away. Probably not.
Colin True
00:27:01.410 - 00:27:26.214
Do you think the co op model matters here? Because I was looking through some of the Comments on your LinkedIn post about the story.
It does feel to me that there's some folks out there who don't really understand that REI is different from the other brands or retailers that we talk about. They see top line revenue in the billions and understand that rei, they kind of looked at REI as like oh, just another billion dollar company.
But doesn't the being the co op model kind of make it different or kind of does that limit how much money they can spend or what the cash flow situation is for them?
Eoin Comerford
00:27:26.302 - 00:29:02.776
Co op model definitely has implications around how they run the business, even how they, how they compensate their executives for that matter. I mean most executives of three plus billion dollar businesses would have some kind of equity based compensation, right?
And they can't do that in a co op. So that's a challenge. But I do think that there are restrictions on what they can and can't do.
Again, I'm guessing from a loan perspective, I don't know that that's just me hypothesizing, but I think the bigger impact actually has been that over time they have, in the good times, they haven't really shelved away a whole bunch of money. Right? Because you look at how they've done over the last number of years and the size that they have and where they are in the industry.
And as a co op with that whole vibe, it always felt a little dirty to make too much money. It's like, hey, if we're making too much money, we should be giving it back to the co op members.
That's the theory of the co op right now they sort of formalized it into this 10% dividend thing. So it never really was a true dividend from the perspective of like, hey, we made more money this year, so you get more money back.
But still it always felt like we can't make too much money.
And so they would find ways to use the money, in some cases giving it back to their own employees, in some cases donations, in some cases maybe inefficiencies within the company. But the co op model I think has led REI down a path of not being the most efficient business. It would be in a purely capitalistic sense.
Justin Housman
00:29:02.808 - 00:30:14.286
I guess I'm just sort of thinking about how, and I'm not trying to drag Owen into this socialist sort of utopia that Colin and I talk about sometimes, but one of the things I think is interesting is like we, we kind of like we like when Colin and I, when you and I talk about stores we like and the outdoor experience that we like. Like, we're more of a fan of smaller operations. Right. Like, we don't like that. We tend to not like the big.
Like, we both have a soft spot for rei, but we both tend to prefer the smaller shops, the more local connections, all that sort of stuff.
And what's funny, though, at the same time, we lament when REI does something like this, like, actively get smaller, you know, and it's funny, it just seems like if our, like, we would end up running shows about how it's such a shame that REI has gotten much, much smaller over the year. Like, if it just keeps. If it keeps shrinking and it just keeps.
And they're slowing down stores, and now it's just because, you know, like, it's not a bunch of big box retail anymore. It's funny. It's like, is it getting to where we actually kind of want places to go? Like, it just got too big. Big.
Like, it got too big, it grew too much, you know, like, it's trying to do too much. And maybe now they're just. They're just trying to find a happy medium. And it's, it's.
It's funny, we sort of lament that when theoretically we should be support. We should be supporting that.
Colin True
00:30:14.438 - 00:30:28.862
Yeah. I don't know, what if there's a. If there's a right or wrong way to say how big or small they should be?
I mean, because if you talk to, like, a lot of the specialty retailers that, you know, you're.
You're mentioning, like, the West Allens of the world, you know, you know, sunlight sports and things like that, they'll say a healthy REI is critical to the outdoor industry. Right?
Justin Housman
00:30:28.886 - 00:30:29.646
Like, that's true.
Colin True
00:30:29.678 - 00:30:30.430
The small guys say that.
Justin Housman
00:30:30.470 - 00:30:30.990
Yeah, that's true.
Colin True
00:30:31.030 - 00:30:52.310
So. So that's why, again, take emotion out of it.
It's sort of like, well, if this is the right call, just from a numbers perspective and it's gonna lead to a healthier rei, I can understand why you would make a decision like this, as difficult as it is to do. I mean, do we. Owen, do you have any kind of insider kind of information on that or thoughts on that about, like, what a what, What.
What is the right size for an rei?
Eoin Comerford
00:30:53.130 - 00:32:53.140
If you ask rei, it's bigger. Is the right. Is the right answer?
Because I do think it was interesting after I posted about this and an REI executive reach and said, hey, it's not just about the money. It is about focus, which is an interesting commentary, which is to say, hey, yeah, we're going to save millions of dollars here.
Potentially cool, but we really need to focus on the retail side of things. So cut. Yes, the. If you want to call it the fat or whatever, away from the business. But also, it's also about.
Let's focus on what we really need to do to deliver an amazing retail experience, and probably an amazing retail experience in more places than it is today. I don't think they want to slow down on store openings.
I think they want to free up cash to fund ongoing store openings and potentially even remodels of existing stores that are out there to grow that piece of it. Now, I think there are members that say, hey, I don't need just another retail store. That's not what makes REI special.
So I think that, to me, is really the nuance here is, are they losing some of the local flavor? That's part that experience is brought to these stores. They're keeping the classes. They made that clear.
It wasn't very clear in the letter, but they did that same executive did confirm to me that, yes, we're keeping classes. We're just talking about more the hikes and stuff that we would do locally. That's going away. We're not going to do snowshoeing and what have you.
Okay, cool. You're getting rid of that. But how do you keep that local flavor? They have a local buying program.
I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with that, but each store has a certain amount of their budget where they can buy from local providers to add that local flavor to the merchandise, which I think is cool. I hope that doesn't go away, because that's part of it.
But if this ultimately means REI just gets more nationalistic or corporate, I think that would be a mistake.
Justin Housman
00:32:54.440 - 00:33:04.670
One thing we didn't talk about at all, Colin, when we talked about this before, is do you remember when they changed the name from Adventures to Experiences? No, I think it was like.
Colin True
00:33:04.710 - 00:33:21.342
I mean, that's kind of the problem I had. Not problem. There's one thing. I thought of this when this came out. I didn't even know this still existed, frankly. Like, that's sort of like that.
Like, if you had told me, said to me last week, hey, does REI still have a travel program? I'd be like, no, I would have had to guess. I didn't. I couldn't have told you it told you it still existed.
Justin Housman
00:33:21.406 - 00:34:34.366
So I just remember when they. When they did it, they made a Big announcement. They were changing it from adventures to experiences. And it. It. You know, this is kind of in the.
In the peak. I guess we're still there peak. Like every outdoors are for everybody sort of movement, which is great. But it. I remember we.
We covered it at Adventure Journal with the thought of, like, huh? Like, what does this mean? Like, what are you saying now? Like, if it's not an adventure anymore and it's an experience, like, an experience is not.
That's not very, like, motivational word, right? An experience. I mean, that's. That's such a flat thing, right? An adventure. Adventure has a meaning as a purpose, has, like, a motivation behind it.
It's an action word. But experience is just like. I mean, I'm experiencing cold right now. Like, what does that even mean? And it just felt like an odd.
It felt like an odd choice. And, And, And. And we wondered what that direction sort of meant. And part of me wonders if.
I don't think that has anything to do with, like, why people might have been taking fewer classes or anything like that.
It probably speaks more to the focus thing where it's like, you know, if you're an adventure company, you're an adventure company, you're selling things for people going on adventures. If you become an experienced brand, that's a completely different source of personality. Brand personality.
And so, again, I doubt that has much to do with why this happened, but I don't know. I just think it's worth mentioning that they, you know, they make this big branding change, and it seems to fall really flat. Yeah.
Colin True
00:34:34.398 - 00:34:40.170
I heard the REI Cocaine Experience was their number one book trip. I feel like that 2022, you know.
Justin Housman
00:34:40.630 - 00:34:46.782
But cocaine is more of an action word. You know, cocaine experience is different than just an outdoor experience, but I think.
Eoin Comerford
00:34:46.806 - 00:34:50.958
More as a. Yeah, more of a magic mushroom experience type of company.
Colin True
00:34:51.094 - 00:34:53.466
That's true. That's a little more. That's tr. That's probably better.
Justin Housman
00:34:53.538 - 00:35:00.074
Yeah. I mean, I get why they made the change, the name change, but never sat well with me.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:00.242 - 00:35:31.366
So I think the big question going forward is, is this truly the end or is there a bit of a respite? And then they come back with something that is basically an outsourced model or, you know, I know I'm Mr.
Marketplace, but, you know, or is it like an adventure marketplace model to where they have vetted these folks both nationally and internationally, and they're taking a bit of a cut as they then hook people up with local guides in the local markets or even for offshore trips?
Colin True
00:35:31.558 - 00:35:39.526
Makes sense. I mean, your expertise is in the gear and the stuff, right? Find partners to fulfill this. Why take on that added burden of the expense?
Eoin Comerford
00:35:39.638 - 00:35:40.490
Exactly.
Colin True
00:35:40.830 - 00:36:11.474
We'll keep an eye on it. Obviously, if it comes back, there's more to talk about other things.
I think producer Dave may want to weigh in on the brand side of this down later in the week, so we'll see if there's any more we have to say about it. Before we let you go though, Owen, last week also saw the resolution of the labor dispute between Vail Resorts and the Park City Ski Patrol.
Justin and I chatted about this a little bit last week.
I just want to ask you again, from an industry perspective, what do you think the long term effects of the strike will be both to the snow sports industry and the outdoor industry, if at all? If you think there will be any long term effects of this, one of.
Eoin Comerford
00:36:11.482 - 00:36:49.978
The interesting things was that it brought some focus to how crazy expensive downhill skiing is.
And actually I did a post on this on LinkedIn where I said, for a family of four one day on the slope, right, with lift tickets, lessons, lunch, gas, whatever, you're looking at fifteen hundred dollars easy, right? And most of the posts I got back were not like, hey, Comerford, you're, you're crazy. No one's paying that. It was, where are you going? That's cheap.
100 bucks for lunch for a family of four. No, you can't do that. You know, like people were saying, you know, fifteen hundred dollars, double it.
Colin True
00:36:50.114 - 00:36:50.570
Wow.
Eoin Comerford
00:36:50.650 - 00:38:33.530
Holy hell.
And so it was this, the juxtaposition of, hey, we're only paying these people 21 bucks an hour with, hey, we want you to pay $350 for a Lyft ticket to stand in line for two hours each time you want to go down the slope. So I think it's really interesting and what it brought to me was just the issue.
I think a big part of this is the issue with the whole season pass model that has come up. And it sounded like a great idea at the time when they came up with it because, hey, we can lock people in.
They're going to pay over $1,000 for this season pass. They're locked in, yada, yada. You have this issue now where as a buyer of the season pass, you want to get your money's worth, right?
So I'm going to go and ski as much as I possibly can.
So it's this dilemma of the commons scenario where everybody wants to use this limited resource in a downhill ski time in this limited amount of time.
And I think they're killing the industry quite frankly with this, they're killing the industry with this very short term focus because not only are you a killing the experience of being on the slopes because of all these long lift lines on good snow days, but also you're making it unaffordable for new people to enter. So the only people that are getting on the slopes are the kids of rich parents who bring them and then they sort of sign up for the same thing.
So it isn't surprising that, that, that downhill skiing is the whitest of white outdoor sports because it is the most uninclusive, exclusive activity that there is. And I think this has really brought that into focus for a lot of people.
Justin Housman
00:38:34.150 - 00:38:42.574
Do I sort of assume that part of the reason that lift tickets cost so much is because they're trying to push people into buying the season pass? Is that, is that like an obvious business play?
Eoin Comerford
00:38:42.742 - 00:38:46.624
Well, absolutely. They're saying, well, hey, you know, yeah.
Justin Housman
00:38:46.632 - 00:38:48.432
Why pay 350 for a thousand bucks?
Eoin Comerford
00:38:48.496 - 00:39:04.752
Yeah, for a thousand bucks, you know what you'd pay for this weekend? You'll pay. But then also, and not everyone is obviously paying 300 bucks a day.
That's if you kind of leave it to the last minute and you want to go at peak times. But still it's just, it's crazy how much it costs.
Justin Housman
00:39:04.896 - 00:39:43.592
I think what needs to happen is unless I don't know how many of these resorts charge for, I don't a lot of them won't let you do it at all. But I remember when the Bluebird no lift resort thing came out. Yeah, yeah, we talked a bit about ski resorts that charge back country ski.
Yeah, we talked a bit about ski resorts are only charged like 15 if you, if for to, to hike up basically or skin up. Like you can, you can, you can ski all day but you just can't get on the lift.
And I don't know if that, how many of these big resorts allow that at all. But it would be kind of fun to just, just do a takeover and just have people, you know what, Screw it. Like we're not paying this anymore.
Like, oh, there are definitely some people just show up and just start like trudging up the hill and just be like deal with, with it.
Colin True
00:39:43.616 - 00:40:06.136
You know, they definitely there they have rules around who can skin up. If you're, if you, if you show up, are you allowed to go up on your own or you have to take the lifts? I mean it's, it just sucks the fun out of it.
That's kind of been my whole thing about it before. Even this story is, it's just like it's, it's such a fun activity when you get the right conditions on the right day.
Not even the conditions, just like just the right day. And you, if you're out with some, some friends and it can be so fun.
Justin Housman
00:40:06.208 - 00:40:06.680
Yeah.
Colin True
00:40:06.760 - 00:40:11.554
But everything about how it's set up now just sucks all the fun out of it.
Eoin Comerford
00:40:11.642 - 00:40:34.306
So I think really what's next is going to be more exclusivity, I. E. It'll be, hey, listen, we've got XYZ runs here that are only for people that have the platinum ticket.
So you've got your regular season pass that gets you on all these other runs. But we want to make sure that the people who we can really milk.
Justin Housman
00:40:34.418 - 00:40:34.642
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:40:34.666 - 00:40:48.306
If we can milk you for 5k a year to get on the best runs and not have to wait an hour, hour, we will milk you for that too. But of course you're continuing to kill the golden goose. But they don't seem to care about the long term health of the industry at this point.
Colin True
00:40:48.378 - 00:40:55.442
We talked about it last week. Just treat it like you do at the amusement park. It's like, well, if you pay the really good price, you can go to the front of the line.
Justin Housman
00:40:55.546 - 00:41:11.576
I think they have, and I think they just have the, they have like the real data about like how little it's going to be snowing in the coming years. And they're not worried, they're not worried about the long term health of skiing. Get this while we can get it, folks. Then we're out of here.
Eoin Comerford
00:41:11.728 - 00:41:56.754
There you go. Personally, I think part of the issue is the fact that now Vail Resorts, et cetera, are publicly traded. And so they're living quarter to quarter.
And that's what's creating the issue, is the fact that you've got this publicly traded company who now has to answer to their investors. And so they're shortsighted by nature basically because of that being public.
I will say though, I think actually that helped get the deal done because their stock was off by like 7 or 8% as this thing was going on. So their market cap, they lost hundreds of millions of dollars in market cap over this thing.
And so ultimately it really actually gave the folks the leverage to get this deal done.
Justin Housman
00:41:56.922 - 00:41:57.682
Good.
Colin True
00:41:57.866 - 00:42:05.070
All right, Owen, well, thanks for coming on, man. We'll see you next time for more amazing insights into the outdoor industry.
Eoin Comerford
00:42:05.880 - 00:42:07.696
Thanks, Kellen. Have a good one, Justin.
Justin Housman
00:42:07.728 - 00:42:09.820
Great see you, Owen. Yeah, you too.
Colin True
00:42:10.120 - 00:42:11.620
Good seeing you. Thanks, Owen.
Justin Housman
00:42:13.640 - 00:42:25.360
Now is about the time those New Year's fitness resolutions start to peter out. It's. It's. We're recording this on January 13th and I. I'm gonna. I'm gonna guess right now 75% of people have already stopped over there.
Colin True
00:42:25.400 - 00:42:26.000
Just jettison.
Justin Housman
00:42:26.080 - 00:42:52.666
I didn't make it this year, so I'm good. But anyway, how about one that will keep you going every month of the year? Resolution that is. Okay. Okay.
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Colin True
00:42:52.698 - 00:42:54.282
How does it work, Justin? How does it work?
Justin Housman
00:42:54.386 - 00:43:02.330
Well, it works like this. You head over to feelgoods.com and you assemble your own feel goods box. Digitally speaking, of course.
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Colin True
00:43:02.370 - 00:43:05.498
Actually be pretty cool if you rolled up. You're like, hey, I'm here to put my box together together.
Justin Housman
00:43:05.554 - 00:43:07.962
They're like, what are you talking about, bro? Just do it online.
Colin True
00:43:08.146 - 00:43:10.266
I heard this ad said you, I can put together a box.
Justin Housman
00:43:10.298 - 00:43:28.634
I assemble my own box. You assemble your own feel goods box with items that are just the right for you. The ones that you need, the ones that you want.
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Colin True
00:43:28.682 - 00:43:34.352
Really? Like, you think there's an Earnest. Is Ernest a person? Or do you think they just went for the name like, hey, versus Ernest?
Justin Housman
00:43:34.466 - 00:43:37.236
I bet it's. I bet. I bet they went. I don't think it's a person.
Colin True
00:43:37.308 - 00:43:39.652
That was. That's a dated reference.
Justin Housman
00:43:39.716 - 00:43:47.560
I mean, I've never even seen that other than maybe a cartoon once or twice as a kid. I never watched those Havern as Earnest. Anyway, he's not involved in the Ernest eats.
Colin True
00:43:48.540 - 00:43:52.292
Jim Varney is not. Does not endorse feel Goods rip.
Justin Housman
00:43:52.356 - 00:44:05.420
He passed away a while ago. Colin. Or. Or if you like, you can just order one of their pre assorted sports specific options like the rider box or the runner box box.
Do they have a surfer box? They should have a surfer. It just has a burrito in it. A burrito and a horse.
Colin True
00:44:05.500 - 00:44:08.140
That's genius right there, frankly. Yeah.
Justin Housman
00:44:08.300 - 00:45:18.204
Each box curated to give you a diverse assortment of items to try. And you can buy something once or set up a subscription. Feel goods. That's pretty easy and convenient.
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So stop what you're doing and head over to feelgoods. Right now to get started. Yeah. Before we get to the parting shot, I'm probably gonna. I'll let the cat out of the back.
Probably write a little piece about this for the. For one of our newsletters. I just want to give, I don't know, Raise. Raise a glass, I guess, to Mike Hinson, who died over the weekend, I think.
I assume over the weekend. Mike Hinson is the blonde guy from the original Endless Summer. If you're not. Not. I mean, he's a legendary surfer.
But if you're not a surfer but you've seen Endless Summer and you vaguely remember it, it's those two, these two guys from California heading out to around the world on a surf trip when this was really not done. Movie came out. I forget, in 62, 63, something like that. The movie itself, nothing.
Colin True
00:45:18.252 - 00:45:18.700
There's really.
Justin Housman
00:45:18.740 - 00:46:18.558
I don't think there's ever been anything quite like it in terms of its impact on, like, something so niche having such a huge impact on American society at large. You will meet people. People, Colin, you'd be surprised. You should ask people.
You, you will meet people in California that moved here because of Endless Summer. It's not uncommon at all to meet people that are, like, in their 70s. It's like, I moved out here after I lived in Kansas. The movie came through town.
We saw it in my theater, and I moved to California like a week later like that. So big, big important deal. The Endless Summer and, and Henson and, and Robert August were the two guys in. In it.
And Hinson had just an amazing surf life. They became, as you can imagine, pretty big stars after the movie was. Was out and the movie, you know, was in theaters for quite a few years.
This is in the 60s. That's kind of how it worked. But he, he, he had some issues.
He ended up getting into, I mean, the entire surf world really, like, embraced LSD and the sort of counterculture lifestyle with gusto, especially in Southern California, where he was from.
Colin True
00:46:18.634 - 00:46:19.014
Sure.
Justin Housman
00:46:19.102 - 00:47:38.730
And so he ended up, you know, joining some kind of a legendary Sort of group that was trafficking LSD all over the place and spent some. I don't know if he ever, like, spent time in prison, but law enforcement was, you know, had their eye on him for years.
But he also continued to just make, like, really good surfboards, made amazing boards, always experimented, was always one of the best surfers in California. And he's just, He's a legend. I mean, he's, he's, he's. I don't know.
I don't know why we always insist on ranking things, but probably one of the Most, you know, 25 most influential surfers in history, if nothing else from Endless Summer.
And, like, if you haven't seen that movie in a long time, it's still my favorite surf movie, even though it's so dated, you know, it's kind of hard to watch with a lot of, like, misogynistic and vaguely, like, racist, you know, undertones that at the time were harmless or seemed harmless. So there's some cringy moments, but still nothing will make you want to surf like that movie will. And again, that movie, surf travel is a.
Is a thing because of Endless Summer. I mean, the idea that you could just get on a plane and go to another country and there were waves, like, baffled people.
People thought you could surf in California and Hawaii and that was it, maybe Australia. And that set the standard for like, just getting you and your buddies and scratching out some cash and going on a trip and.
So anyway, just wanted to say, you know, thanks, Mike. I think he was 82. Life well lived. And, you know, pour it out. Catch away from Mike next time.
Colin True
00:47:38.770 - 00:47:39.872
82 is pretty good.
Justin Housman
00:47:39.976 - 00:47:44.144
Pretty good. Yeah, he looked good. Dude was handsome. Whole life, handsome.
Colin True
00:47:44.272 - 00:47:53.552
All right, well, let's get into the. The parting shot. I think it's your turn. We just gave a tribute to you guys. Let me. I'll go first.
Justin Housman
00:47:53.576 - 00:47:54.464
Yeah, you go first.
Colin True
00:47:54.552 - 00:49:05.882
Okay. Well, we talked a lot about some heavy stuff here on the old rock fight today, so I'm just going to go a little bit lighter with my parting shot.
I'm not going to get too angry about things or get. Make it too outdoor industry focused. I just, I had a moment this past week that I thought of this as a parting shot.
Last week, I traveled to my hometown of Pennsylvania, which has grown quite a bit in the decades since I left there, which is great. Good for them. Lancaster, Pennsylvania. And whenever I travel, I always try to seek out good coffee and breakfast places more than anything else.
As soon as I'm checking into a hotel, I've got the Google Maps app out. I'm searching hipster coffee. Where can I get good coffee? Because I'm a absolute coffee snob.
So I'll also drink shitty coffee, but I really like to find good coffee. So. So one morning, and here, by the way, this is something that you're gonna be jealous of, but you're not that far away.
Maybe a few years away from this. So we all had separate hotel rooms. Kids in one room. We are in another room.
And then we just left in the morning, didn't tell anybody where we're going, went and got breakfast. It was great, but it was bitterly cold. We went out for breakfast.
We found a place looked like it had good hipster coffee and also some relatively healthier breakfast options, which they were. They were great. They had baked oats with yogurt.
Justin Housman
00:49:05.946 - 00:49:06.298
Love that.
Colin True
00:49:06.354 - 00:49:07.162
Berries and granolas.
Justin Housman
00:49:07.226 - 00:49:08.202
I love baked oatmeal.
Colin True
00:49:08.266 - 00:49:09.194
Fucking outstanding.
Justin Housman
00:49:09.242 - 00:49:09.742
Ye.
Colin True
00:49:09.866 - 00:49:18.886
My wife had avocado toast. I think it was kind of worthy. What you might find out this way. It was quite tasty.
No offense, east coast, but, like, that's kind of a west coast thing.
Justin Housman
00:49:18.958 - 00:49:19.850
Pennsylvania.
Colin True
00:49:20.270 - 00:49:44.976
Yeah. I'm sure they're more expensive there because they all came from here, so.
But then I ordered a cortado, which I believe is the greatest espresso drink that we have. It's my favorite. Problem is, though, I didn't order. I just ordered a cortado and it came sweet. So apparently they use in.
They put this on the menu, and I didn't look at it because I just ordered a cortado. They use a sweetened espresso for a cortado and. Yeah, I guess.
Justin Housman
00:49:45.088 - 00:49:47.680
You know what? Honestly, that seems like an east coast thing. I get that.
Colin True
00:49:47.800 - 00:50:29.800
It's gotta be, right? Cause I've seen other places, coffee places try this, where they put their own spin on things. Here's my parting shot. Espresso's perfect, right?
If you make it well enough, you make it the way it's supposed to be made. It's genuinely one of the few perfect things in the world. I feel like, that humans have accomplished.
And it's unassailable if you make it the right way, so. So don't fuck with it or. Cortado does not need to be sweetened.
I mean, if you want to sweeten it, you can, but I feel like you're ruining one of our great pleasures. It was really just disappointing. I'm like, oh, this looks good, smells good. I'm like, why is it sweet? It's like on the menu.
Oh, we used a sweetened espresso. I'm like, fuck that, I don't want a sweetened espresso. I want good espresso. So that's my parting shot.
Learn how to make perfect espresso at coffee shops and then serve it in its perfect state.
Justin Housman
00:50:29.920 - 00:50:40.516
So as you can imagine as a Californian, like the first time I went, the first few times actually even now, would freak me out. Like going to New York or anywhere on the east coast and you order coffee and they just like ask if you want like, you know, sugar in it.
Colin True
00:50:40.588 - 00:50:42.324
They want to put coffee, cream and sugar.
Justin Housman
00:50:42.372 - 00:50:54.020
Just like, what are you talking? Like, I'm so baffled. Like I. I'm a half and half always half and half user, always.
And like, I like baffled that when I see people put sugar in their coffees, I'm just like, jesus, I forgot people did that.
Colin True
00:50:54.060 - 00:50:57.876
But yeah, a regular at Dunkin Donuts is just like cream and sugar. That's a regular.
Justin Housman
00:50:57.988 - 00:51:04.196
See, that's wild to me. Like, that's. I'm sure if I went right now, I'd be like, can I just get a coffee? And if they just said regular, I'd say, sure.
And I would assume that would be black.
Colin True
00:51:04.268 - 00:51:07.412
Come out that way and then you immediately get diabetes for the amount of sugar they put in it.
Justin Housman
00:51:07.436 - 00:51:33.824
It's like the first. When I moved to San, San Diego and I went and ordered my first California burrito. And at the time I was vegetarian and my like 20.
Actually, I didn't live there yet. I was just, I was in San Diego and my like, dumb ass, like 21 year old. In my mind, California, it's probably vegetarian.
I didn't even like, didn't even think about rational. Yeah, I'll get that. I'm like expecting like black beans and avocado. No, no, no, no, no. French carne asada with fresh fries and cheese.
Colin True
00:51:33.872 - 00:51:35.892
Yep. That's amazing, isn't it?
Justin Housman
00:51:36.056 - 00:51:37.404
Anyway, so good.
Colin True
00:51:37.492 - 00:51:39.036
Yeah, I love a California burrito.
Justin Housman
00:51:39.068 - 00:51:48.956
Well, all right.
I actually was gonna go with a whole different parting shot, but for some reason this just popped into my head and it's a little bit lighter, so I'm gonna go with the slightly lighter one because it's been a bit of a heavy, heavy episode.
Colin True
00:51:49.068 - 00:51:49.644
It has.
Justin Housman
00:51:49.732 - 00:51:59.080
So my five year old daughter is really good on a bike, great bike rider, and she's been riding a bike with no, you know, like a pedal bike now for at least a couple years.
Colin True
00:51:59.540 - 00:52:00.636
That's awesome.
Justin Housman
00:52:00.828 - 00:52:15.898
But like, you know, even though I live in a very small town, that ostensibly is very bike friendly. The roads are narrow, cars are big and they drive fast. And there's a lot of times where it's not safe for her to ride on the road.
So gasp, we ride on the sidewalk. Okay.
Colin True
00:52:15.994 - 00:52:18.938
Oh my God. Right to jail.
Justin Housman
00:52:19.034 - 00:52:46.032
That's the thing.
It's like if you, if you see a five year old girl with a pink helmet on, on her little bike, like yesterday she was wearing like a little, she was going to a tea party after our bike ride, so she had like a little cockpit tail dress on, kind of like sparkly, with like black sparkly boots. I mean she could not have been cuter and like, you know, 80, 75% of the people that we'd encounter on the sidewalk.
I might be walking my bike, you know, because I'm an adult.
Colin True
00:52:46.176 - 00:52:47.712
You yield to the pedestrians.
Eoin Comerford
00:52:47.776 - 00:52:48.384
Yeah, of course.
Justin Housman
00:52:48.472 - 00:53:22.490
But like the amount of people that looked at me like, get this girl off the sidewalk. I couldn't believe it.
There are a couple people that you could tell, wanted to say something and I'm just like, it's not like we're riding through like Times Square or something. It's a nice big sidewalk. There's plenty of room. Oh, just let the kids ride on sidewalks.
Like I get just, I mean, I get it if you're mad about, you know, 15 year old dudes on like those Super 73e bikes. Yeah, I don't want them on the sidewalk. I don't want adult people like blasting through on their bikes.
But a tiny little girl, let her ride on the sidewalk. You want her to ride in the street?
Colin True
00:53:22.610 - 00:53:49.238
As a general rule, I agree with the, the rules. You shouldn't ride bikes on your sidewalks. But there are circumstances where it's like, look, that's fine little girl with her dad.
As long as you guys aren't just like barreling by everybody. No, my last summer, my teenage, my middle school girls, they were all riding bikes everywhere, all over the place.
And we have some really busy roads around here. So I'm like, ride on the sidewalk, I don't even care, you know, Like, I don't, I, I don't trust you riding in. And we have bike lanes.
Every road has a bike lane. Nah, I don't care. Ride on the side.
Justin Housman
00:53:49.294 - 00:54:19.952
Yeah, sometimes. And like if I see somebody coming, I'll hop off, you know, but like exactly. There's nobody around.
But yeah, in fact we, at one point we, we rode a little ways to the next town over and then we rode back and there's this ancient charming sign that's like welcome to Fairfax. And it has like a map of like all the cycling routes you can take and on the top it has like an old school, like here are the rules.
And like I read the first one and the second one is right, stay off the sidewalk. And I'm like, you know, and then it, hey, actually, let's just keep on going. Let's just keep on writing, right?
Colin True
00:54:20.136 - 00:54:24.076
Don't worry about that one, honey. So anyway, that's a good one.
Justin Housman
00:54:24.148 - 00:54:25.436
Just let the kids ride on the sidewalk.
Colin True
00:54:25.468 - 00:54:26.332
That's it. I agree.
Justin Housman
00:54:26.436 - 00:54:27.324
Thanks, man.
Colin True
00:54:27.492 - 00:54:29.308
All right, man. Well, we can wrap it up there, I think.
Justin Housman
00:54:29.364 - 00:54:31.132
I don't want to, though. I want to just keep rock fighting with people.
Colin True
00:54:31.156 - 00:55:06.650
Just keep on rolling. Just like just going to keep break. Let's do next week's 12 hour long pussy. All right, everybody. Well, we'll wrap it up there.
Please send us your emails. Reach out. Do you want to advertise? Do you want to send some news? Do you want to just yell at us for something?
Send it to myrockflightgmail.com the The Rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight LOC for Justin Hausman and consigliere popping in today. Owen cumberford. I'm Colin true.
Thanks for listening and well, you know, you expected this and I expect you to stick around and listen to the whole thing. Kristen makes his back to sing the rock fight fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:55:14.600 - 00:56:02.150
Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
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Eoin Comerford
00:56:04.290 - 00:56:06.130
Rock fight Rock fight.