Today Doug opens the container with Danica & Mike Carey of Seirus Innovation.
Doug begins the episode by reflecting on the need for innovation within the outdoor and ski industries. He talks about his 25 years of working within those industries during which he has observed how the outdoors is adept at prioritizing creativity and problem-solving over mere profit maximization.
Doug is then joined by Mike and Danica Carey of Seirus Innovation, who talk about the significance of fostering an inclusive culture that welcomes diversity, recognizing that a broad spectrum of perspectives can lead to greater creativity and innovation.
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Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:02.880 - 00:05:59.472
Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. I'm a journalist, writer, and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I'm the best skier on this mountain. Today, our focus is on innovation. I've worked for 25 years in the outdoor and ski snowboard industries.
I've even had some people tell me I've covered so many outdoor businesses that I could have an MBA in the field. And in all that time, the biggest difference I've seen in these industries is how they continue to bring innovation and new ideas to the forefront.
This isn't because, like in far too many other industries, that could matter. The people running the businesses just want to make money. In fact, it's the opposite. The people running outdoor businesses want to innovate.
They want to create gear and solutions for problems that they face in the outdoors. Those are the people who are the most successful.
I think it's a pretty common experience for all of us in the outdoor industry to see a large company or group take over a once beloved outdoor brand and suck the soul right out of it. They lose touch with that basic connection of serving in need of being like the people who buy their stuff.
It's really a lesson that all businesses should learn from. They have to put product and service to the customer first before anything else. This isn't just the way to build a good brand.
It's also how you succeed with bigger goals about the mark you want to make on the world. When I first started in the outdoor and ski industries, the outdoor retailer and SII shows were the places to be in their heydays.
They were giant carnivals of business connection. Outdoor Retailer was too big to fit inside the Salt palace in Salt Lake City.
It spilled out into tents and even to the Delta center where Jazz Play, which really pissed off the people who ended up exhibiting there. Sia was a massive party in Vegas.
At my first show, the company I was working for, hooked on the outdoors, threw a big party one night at the House of Blues with Pennywise, still one of the best punk rock shows I've ever attended. All the big brands were at these shows with massive booths and free espresso and beer and God knows what else.
But the thing that would really draw me in was the small brands. These were the true innovators. I remember first meeting Martin Keane at Outdoor Retailer when he was just one guy with an ugly looking shoe.
The next show there were a few more people working for Keen in a booth. That's design ethic was nothing but scraps of rubber on the floor. Sort of as slow tech as you could go and then boom.
As you know, the brand exploded from there.
Likewise, the guys at Cloudvale, everybody's favorite dearly departed brand, were in the ballroom at outdoor retailer back in the day with this new idea of a soft shell. We all know how that became a standard of outdoor apparel.
At the SIA show, the small brand innovation was even crazier and any forward thinking skier or rider could show up with a new idea for better, cooler new boards and skis. I think one of the best things I ever saw there was a Japanese company called Kicker Fucker Chicken kfc.
Beyond having one of the best names I've ever heard for a brand, they were selling ski bling, a ring for your glove and such. This was one of the best functions of these big shows. You could see real innovation or in the case of kfc, at least real fun evolving.
I hope we won't lose that now that the shows have been shrunken into pale shadows of what they were getting.
All these people together who make up the community is still such an essential part of what the outdoors can bring, not just to customers, but more so to the larger business communities. This is the really important thing about outdoor and ski brands. They can teach the business community.
They can teach better capitalism, how to make it work for the planet, for people. This is essential to our lives. We need to make money, we need to have jobs. But the way we do it needs to be smart and make sense for the planet.
This is what outdoor and ski brands strive to do and so many of them are so successful at it. If all business could run like this, we could be living in a better world.
My guests today exemplify how to run a business with ethics learned from the ski world and I admit a bit from playing football. Mike Carey and his wife Wendy founded Cirrus Innovation in 1979.
In 2007, he took a spot as chairman of the board for Snow Sports Industries America sia. He is an inventor who owns or shares eight ski apparel patents and millions of football fans might know him for his work as a referee in the NFL.
From 1995 through 2014, he was the first black referee to oversee the super bowl, taking on the job in the legendary Super Bowl 42 between the New England Patriots and the New York Giants. His daughter, Donica Carey, is the director of Marketing Operations at Cirrus Innovative Accessories.
She has helped the brand develop and launch products that bring technical gear to outdoor enthusiasts. Following the Guidance and inspiration of her parents.
She is humbled by the privilege of watching the business built from an idea and continues to evolve her ability to contribute over many roles and constant learning experiences. Now let's open the container with Mike and Donnica Carey. As I said, we're excited to be here with Mike and Danica Carey from Cirrus Innovation.
Really excited to talk to you guys. And I think one of the big things I'm excited to talk about is just what's in the name of the company, which is innovation.
But why don't we get started by you telling us the genesis story, how the company began, where it came from.
Mike Carey
00:05:59.656 - 00:06:01.900
Oh yeah, the longer. The short story.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:06:02.360 - 00:06:04.528
Yeah, yeah, we can go longer. We can go longer.
Mike Carey
00:06:04.624 - 00:07:35.608
That's a good story of it is probably since high school and I started observing friends, parents and what kind of businesses they were in that I knew I would want to have be in a business that gave opportunity for input and a meritocracy based existence. And it's so hard if you have more than two people for politics not to come involved.
And so I wanted to be in an environment where it really would make it collaborative for me and everybody else. And then I decided if I want that, I'm going to have to create that.
And so before I thought about ski industry, I knew I wanted to be in a business that offered anybody who came in an opportunity to have their voice heard and see it show up in whatever product or service that we provided. So that's always been the kind of fundamental. And on the snow sports side, on ski side, is that it just so happened.
I went to school in Northern California and I played football there at University of Santa Clara. And a lot of my friends were skiers. I couldn't ski because playing football, they wouldn't let you go on the mountain.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:07:35.704 - 00:07:36.200
Right.
Mike Carey
00:07:36.320 - 00:09:08.740
My senior year I got to go on the mountain and eventually my girlfriend at the time, now my wife did her senior year in the mountains and I got exposed to skiing.
And this is right in the days where they were, the boot and binding companies were having problem with a lot of lower leg injuries because there was not a universal fit for the boots and bindings.
You know, the government stepped in and said ASTM on United States side and then on the European side, you had to make a universal sole dimension boot that had an integral fit with the binding system. And I had been following that as I was trying to learn about the sport.
And I got a bright idea that, well, if you're going to make it a precision Fit. Walking around your ski boots is going to jeopardize that. And my intuition was correct.
I invented a product that protected that relationship by having a walking sole on it. And I was nice, naive enough to make it. And. And it was successful.
And then started inviting other people to come in and find problems and solve the problem with either a service or a product. And that's really been the lifeblood of what we do now.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:10.080 - 00:09:27.730
Love it. Dedicate anything to. How did you become involved? It's great to have. I have to say, it's great to have a father and daughter working together.
I love my daughter and I can. You know, I know there's a lot of people who can't imagine working with their family, but I. It's great to see you guys working together for.
For how long now? How long has that happened?
Danica Carey
00:09:28.070 - 00:09:30.970
I'm 44 this year, so.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:31.750 - 00:09:32.846
So 44 years?
Danica Carey
00:09:32.918 - 00:09:37.290
Yeah, just about. I mean, probably closer to 20.
Mike Carey
00:09:37.830 - 00:09:39.870
Well, can I interject one type thing here?
Danica Carey
00:09:39.910 - 00:09:40.930
Oh, I'm scared.
Mike Carey
00:09:42.550 - 00:10:10.120
So my wife works in the business as well. Cause she was a scare before I was. And during the time we were incubating the business, all of the things that we do were from home.
And both our kids were with us 24 7. So we got to spend the first probably seven or eight years of both their lives at home working, playing and.
Danica Carey
00:10:11.380 - 00:10:13.452
Creating, problem solving, everything.
Mike Carey
00:10:13.556 - 00:10:15.692
So they're always part of it, whether.
Danica Carey
00:10:15.716 - 00:10:18.180
They'Re helpful or not. Yeah.
Mike Carey
00:10:19.000 - 00:10:20.736
So tell them about the. What.
Danica Carey
00:10:20.888 - 00:12:22.008
Yeah, so when he's talking about the invention of the cat tracks, that was in 78, brought it to market in 79. And I was born in 1980. So the business started my. And my sister was born in 79.
So the business started like all things happened kind of in a snowball effect. Right. Start a company, you know, not that they're had a full launch or anything. Like he said, it's out of their. Out of our house. So in our garage.
And I think by the time I was like three or four was when you first hired Bob.
So they put up a flyer at San Diego State, which was just across the freeway from our house, and looking for someone to help with shipping and fulfillment. Bob Murphy, who is now our VP of operations, pulled the number, gave call, came up. And so as. As I like to tell it, it's.
I've always been involved in the business.
It just went from being a pest to a benefit at some point, you know, Bob's out in the warehouse trying to ship orders, and my sister and I are either just you know, climbing all over the boxes. And he eventually figured out, like, you know, how a lot of kids, you buy this great gift and all they want is the box.
All we ever wanted was the box. So he'd throw a big. The biggest box he had and a Sharpie at us, and we outline what we wanted for a fort.
He'd cut it with a box cutter between shipping and doing whatever he needed to do, and then would just like, throw it on the other side of the house and be like, there's you playing that. And then by the time they moved into their first office about then I could do a decent amount of math and knew the Alphabet. So I.
We'd come in and start filing.
And then when we were old enough to, you know, not break too many things in the warehouse, we were allowed to work in the warehouse and help with assembling fanny flasks, which I don't know if how many people know that we were actually the first to bring fanny packs to the ski industry back in the 90s with.
Mike Carey
00:12:22.064 - 00:12:23.944
With beverage containers.
Danica Carey
00:12:23.992 - 00:12:26.536
With. Yeah, with. With liquid bladders in them.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:26.608 - 00:12:28.648
Hydration, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Danica Carey
00:12:28.664 - 00:12:39.778
Well, yeah, hydration wasn't necessarily like as big of a priority back then, but yes, they were hydration packed. Um, and.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:39.834 - 00:12:42.130
And the fanny pack is big now. The fanny pack is big again.
Danica Carey
00:12:42.170 - 00:13:56.120
It's a fanny pack is huge again. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, that was kind of always our after school slash summer job or just environment that we'd hang out in. It was.
There was always the business building going on around us and free child labor, though. Yeah, definitely. We won't. We won't talk to California about some of it, but.
But yeah, so I really got to watch them build the business literally around us and being a part of that in any way that we could be helpful as we continued to grow. And then, you know, I went off to college and really didn't intend to have my degree support. What I would end up doing here, it was.
I ended up getting a marketing degree because I really couldn't decide what I wanted to do in college. And my. And I played sports in college. And so our academic advisor would just kept pushing me towards, like, just study business.
That'll give you the basis in anything. And I just still couldn't decide by the time it was time to commit. And he's like, you know, what do marketing?
Then that kind of gives you an open, broad scope to just about anything. So I did major in marketing and now running the marketing department for them. So I guess that helped Out.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:56.980 - 00:14:02.220
But it probably helped out before too, right? Just understanding how a business was running from the very get go, right?
Danica Carey
00:14:02.260 - 00:16:08.926
I mean definitely I felt like, you know, as you get into college and you get those like real world experience, like they'll partner you with a local business to do a project. And it felt like I had already gotten the benefit of having so much of that real life, real world experience.
And especially the way he's already mentioned his vision behind what he wanted a business to look like and how he wanted it to operate. Like he, the, the curiosity that comes from the top down for what everyone thinks.
And I mean, top down isn't really the right way to say it because there's really a, a massive collaboration effort here and it's really strong with the people who have been here the longest, no matter what their title or role or what other hierarchical businesses might put their status at. And so I always had a really good understanding of how they ran the business.
And then it was interesting learning like how people teach business or how other businesses approach things and so kind of being able to analyze it and react and respond to things and recognize the places where we had something really special going on here comparatively, and then seeing how business has kind of tracked in the direction that they started the business, you know, 40, 44 years ago has been really cool thing to be a part of.
And I think, you know, as I've grown and learned more, I appreciate it more now when, you know, fresh out of college, I'm just like, I've got so many ideas, here's how we do things. And they're like, that's cool, you've been here, you learned that five minutes ago. How about you come back?
But then I think that integration of what you think, you know, what you're excited about, and how you really kind of spot test it with the other humans that you're around that care as much as you do about things being successful, no matter what their education, degree, background is really, really purposeful for all of us in each of our roles.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:16:09.118 - 00:16:23.678
So I guess I had a kind of broad question then, is for you guys, what is innovation? How do you see innovation, you know, working through business, working through industries, you know, what exactly is it?
Kind of a broad question, but.
Mike Carey
00:16:23.814 - 00:17:40.600
Well, I can tell you what is for me and I'm sure Danica will chime in as well. Innovation is just new, right?
And so if you offer a space that you critically think about everything that you do, creatively think about everything that you do, and try to see what do you see, either internally or externally in the snow sports industry that you think can be better. And you bring those problems to the table and everybody has a perspective on that problem and then offers something in the pool. You stir that pot up.
And we've been lucky that what comes out of it is pieces of everybody.
Even those people who say something that really sounds like it doesn't fit, it usually triggers somebody else to think about something that does fit based on what they said. And so almost everybody can see part of what they are offering in what we do. And that's just been. That's the whole essence of teamwork.
And it's just been, you know, we've been very fortunate.
Danica Carey
00:17:41.740 - 00:20:22.230
Yeah. I think it's something that you actually said in the very beginning and retouched on it there. But it's. It's really. For me, it's problem solving.
And then I think once you recognize what problem you're attempting to solve, there's a ton of stamina that you need.
You know, like, it really takes a lot of persistence because you might envision an idea, but bringing it, like having an idea and bringing it to life and then sampling it and testing it all the way through the process, and at each point, kind of letting either people who have already been involved poke holes in it or showing it. Like, every time you show it to someone new while it's still in the development stage, like, you're like, oh, my gosh, like, am I going to.
Like, you're. You. You have to be willing.
You have to be so flexible and willing to literally be willing to start over, no matter how far down the line you are, or make a massive adjustment to what you see as your vision in order for it to be the best it possibly can be.
And then there's also, of course, the pitfall that can happen with, like, you know, too many cooks in the kitchen or that idea of, like, having too many people collaborate, that you're trying to make something for everyone. But I think, of course, that's a pitfall that can happen, but if you're aware of it and you keep.
You have to keep the drive to move the thing forward and keep relating back to, like, what was the problem we were trying to solve? Is this doing it? So there's. There's a lot of.
For me, it's a lot of persistence and just willingness to keep trying and keep going towards, what is this thing? Do I still believe it's going to solve the problem that we're talking about?
Is the problem big enough to be worth creating because we're a product company. Right. So is it big enough to be worth creating a new thing?
Is the new thing newer enough and different enough from what's out there that we're willing to figure out how to make it play, play a positive role not just for the people utilizing it, but, you know, where is that going to play into the sustainability of our planet? What's the environmental impact?
Like, all of these things that you have to put into play as a product company and then at the end of the day, like, is it going to be successful enough to have been worth the hours and bandwidth put into it? So it's like, you know, there's a like very flowery version of innovation where it's like, yeah, you get to play around and try new things.
And that, that's all really fun. But, you know, there's. For every product we bring out, there's probably 15 that we didn't do because it didn't beat that.
So, yeah, it's constant evolution.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:22.390 - 00:20:48.898
But I think this also leads us into something I know that you guys wanted to talk about, which was kind of the concept of expert beginner.
That trying to create product that it can appeal both to hardcore users, people who are doing uphill apps, and also maybe to, you know, like you back in the day, Mike had been like, wow, I'd like to try skiing, but I've never done it before. Am I going to be cold? Am I going to. Right, but, but making product that appeals to a big spectrum of people. Really.
Mike Carey
00:20:48.954 - 00:22:07.370
Yeah.
So going through the beginner stage of it, you realize that once you start, the product that you need as a beginner is unlike that you need as an expert. So when an expert rarely has their hands in the snow, that melts.
And you know, but when you're a beginner, you guys are in the, on the ground all the time, you know, and that's just one element that you want to help develop products for. And because, you know, we're a San Diego based company, but we take everybody's skiing that wants to go. Sure.
And their first experience, they're going to come back saying, hey, I experienced this. That wasn't so hot. What can you do? And then we throw that in the pot.
And then we also have collaborative meetings with our internal product development staff, sales department, and then we invite in our reps and most importantly, some of our key retailers because they have the closest touch to the consumer. And so we get this broad spectrum, people coming in, looking at problems and coming up with a way to solve those problems.
And that's been the genesis of how we, most of our products begin.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:22:08.190 - 00:22:21.110
Well, yeah, let's talk about, I mean as long as we're talking about skiing, where are some of your favorite places to ski and what are some of the experiences you've had on the mountain that really have kept you coming back?
Danica Carey
00:22:21.230 - 00:22:22.690
You got to tell the first time.
Mike Carey
00:22:23.120 - 00:22:24.904
You got it, it didn't start as.
Danica Carey
00:22:24.992 - 00:22:26.312
It didn't start so Magical.
Mike Carey
00:22:26.376 - 00:22:26.552
No.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:22:26.576 - 00:22:28.780
Yeah, it's a hard sport. It's a hard sport.
Mike Carey
00:22:29.120 - 00:23:19.900
So I went skiing for the first time in 1969 and, and that was a year was one of the. I went to school in Bay Area, so Lake Tahoe is where everybody went to ski.
So I went up and night skiing and this, this, and this is my first experience in the snow. And I didn't know that, you know, six foot wall tunnels of snow was out of the ordinary. And you.
And so I drove up there at night, then went night skiing. And I think it was Homewood. I couldn't stand up to save my life.
You know, I fell down one time and this little kid comes skiing up to me and stops right in front of me and says, what's the matter, mister? Can't you ski?
Danica Carey
00:23:20.560 - 00:23:21.816
And then skis off.
Mike Carey
00:23:21.888 - 00:24:23.578
Yeah, and sk. Yeah, a little whipper snapper. But then I was determined I was gonna to learn how to do the sport.
And I've had just great, great fun in it ever since. But no, the first time and I was soaking, soaking wet in jeans with gators gloves that were just sopping wet.
You know, and sometimes that Lake Tahoe snow can be very, hold a lot of moisture and so just not the best environment, not, not the best first experience, which I think a lot of people have. And so that's one of the challenges of the sport is it's not an easy sport to learn. And so retention is a huge issue.
And so we, you know, we, the industry has been trying to work on it all the time. I don't care if you're the trade part of the industry, the manufacturing part of the industry, the retailer part of the industry.
Everybody loves the experience, but boy, it's hard to do. It takes a lot of equipment, takes a lot of time. Yeah, it takes a lot of money.
Danica Carey
00:24:23.714 - 00:24:57.126
Yeah. Especially when night skiing is a lot of people's entry into it. I mean, that's how I taught most of my friends because it's a, it's less expensive.
Right. It's after hours.
So people have jobs, you can go after work and almost all of them have that miserable experience because from east coast to west coast, it's pretty icy at night, no matter how good the snow is during the day. So it, and you know, the visibility, abilities to challenge.
So I think, you know, a lot of people's first attempt isn't as magical as it becomes, you know, three, four times later.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:24:57.198 - 00:24:59.270
Of course not. No. No one's out of it, right?
Danica Carey
00:24:59.310 - 00:27:07.526
Yeah, yeah.
And, and yeah, I think as far as the favorite mountain goes, like, it's so hard to pick a favorite place to ski because I think the one universal, the one commonality that's so amazing about being out in snow sports, skiing, snowboarding, telly, whatever you're doing. The landscape is really similar, right. There's a lot of mountains and lakes go together.
And so wherever you are, whether you've, whether it's a mountain that you're able to hike up or if you're taking a chairlift to the top, the scenery at every mountain is beautiful. And just being able to be connected in such a way to outdoor spaces.
And then as you continue to progress or however much you like speed, like just the feeling of literally whipping down the hill, I mean, it's, I think, one of the fastest things you're able to do without being motorized.
And I know, I think, I just think every, the first time I go to anywhere new is my favorite place because I like more of the exploration side of things. So there's a lot of fun in knowing where you're going and having paths that you know where your favorite features are and things like that.
But I'm not the biggest fan of routine. So I really like exploring new mountains. Big and small. Small.
You know, I've got an indie pass this year and I'm excited to check out, like, some of the lesser known resorts around the country that I think really are the next best place for people to discover their first love for skiing or snowboarding or even just snow parks all around the country that exist as a first way to get into it.
You know, I think there's a lot of energy and information put, put out about some of the, like, Mecca resorts, which is great because those are beautiful places.
They have a lot of challenging terrain, but that's not where everyone needs go, especially for your first time when we're talking about the cost barrier.
So I love getting out to explore places I've never been before and just kind of like learn the new environment, see how that town interacts with the, with that area.
Mike Carey
00:27:07.598 - 00:27:52.490
And yeah, no matter where you go it's always in the outside and crisp environment. And unlike any other sport that I think of, you're. You're doing the same thing at the same time with 3 to 10,000 people. What sport lets you do that?
So you have that bond that you culminate at the end of the day in a restaurant, in a bar, walking around town. Everybody's had a common experience. Not the same experience, but a common experience. And that's rare to have. And so it's a great socializing sport.
And so it's just got all those things that you like, except for it's not cheap.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:27:54.510 - 00:28:10.566
It's not cheap, and it's hard to get into. So how do I know you've worked on this for years and years with SIA and everything else.
So how do we grow the sport and how do we make a not very diverse sport more diverse? We've been working on this for years and years. Right.
Mike Carey
00:28:10.718 - 00:29:25.554
You just keep working at it one person at a time. And the resorts are doing what they can, the brands are doing what they can, and the retailers are doing what they can to lower that bar of entry.
But it really takes most people that I know who started skiing got schemed because somebody said, hey, you want to try this? And we just need more of that. We do sometimes get the benefit of. They like to. The media likes to glamorize, you know, the snow sports industries.
You'll see them in ads all the time. You'll see them in, you know, action ads. You know, this. So it is the freedom next to flying, it's the closest thing to flying. Yeah. You know, so.
And so that exhilaration most of us really enjoy. And so if you can introduce somebody to it and then keep it going, we just need to do it in a more universal way.
And we have basically three different industries. We have the resort industry, we have the manufacturing industry, and we have the retailer industry.
And if we could combine them similar to what the NFL does, I mean, everybody's for football.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:29:25.722 - 00:29:26.098
Right.
Mike Carey
00:29:26.154 - 00:29:32.110
And combine to do it. I think easier said than done, though.
Danica Carey
00:29:32.650 - 00:29:59.828
Yeah. And I think supporting organizations that do that regional work to get people outside is the biggest deal.
You know, there's organizations across the country like Sharewinter, sos, There's localized organizations, outdoor outreach here, Black Outside in Texas. There's a lot of organizations around the country doing the work to that is because I think you have to do it regionally. Right.
Like, you need to know your area.
Mike Carey
00:29:59.964 - 00:32:31.150
And on the individual level, I think that might be one of our biggest Opportunities. Is that just human nature? We're tribal. Right. And so our human nature is at first glance not to welcome outsiders.
You know, and if we recognize that and try to reverse that in ourselves, I think we'll be more successful. We have a tendency in the industry to see a novice and kind of shine away from them because they're not part of the group.
And if we can learn to embrace them more, no matter where they come from, most people recognize a novice when they see him. If you're a local or a frequenter of the mountain, if we can change that subliminal ostracism to a conscious welcoming.
And I think a lot of us are doing it, but it's very easy. When you work first walk into a new resort, you, you get vibes about, well, you're not from here. Right. We can reverse that.
People feel more, more welcome.
And not to say that, I mean, millions feel welcome in the snow sports industry, but it's hard enough to retain people when they've have all the resources to come. And if you can have the social invitation from those who are around there, great.
You know, we just went through probably our, We've had a couple revolutions that we've able, we've been able to overcome. We had a revolution when snowboarding came in. You know, the ski sliders on the mountain weren't as welcoming as we could have been. Right.
And when snowboarders had critical mass, they weren't as welcoming to skiers as we could have been. Now it's much more integrated.
The next big wave is when the resorts realized that they could probably help the industry better by selling passes that are universal passes. It gave access to a lot more people to come. And I think we saw a lot of the locals feeling invaded.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:31.230 - 00:32:31.534
Yeah.
Mike Carey
00:32:31.582 - 00:32:51.606
And I, I think that's, that's, that pendulum is swinging because they realize if we don't get more people, all of us are going to be squeezed out of skiing because the cost for the mountain is not going down. And I think that's a cultural thing that we're learning, but we just need to be better at it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:51.678 - 00:33:06.184
And what do you think about on the manufacturing side? I mean, you guys are one of the few black owned businesses in the industry. How could we get more black owned businesses in the ski industry?
How can we get more diversity in the manufacturers and the entrepreneurs we're seeing come into the industry?
Danica Carey
00:33:06.342 - 00:36:52.956
Yeah, that's really, that's a really awesome and also complex question because it's so, it's so personalized and individualized. Right. I think one of the things that we still continue to struggle with as a society and as a community is credibility based impression.
You know, there's a certain credibility that people of a certain demographic are afforded that not all of us are.
And so the amount of resistance or pushback, conscious or subconscious, that happens for organizations or individuals, whether you're trying to get a job or you're trying to perform as a business, that goes on a lot overtly and covertly. And so I think just acknowledging what you can within yourself or when you see it and being a part of the extrication of that in our.
Because anything, anything against that progression is just a social construct that was built in, it was learned.
And so there's been a ton of conditioning that has gone into our society to convince all of us that certain people, certain demographics are just not as good, not as capable, not as skilled. And so that is built into some degree in all of us, even those that represent for those communities. It is built into all of our systems.
And so I think if you're able to recognize that consciously and then recognize if and when you are ever participating in it and if and when you're coming up against it and how to compassionately and consistently work through that with the person and in the environment that you're in, I think it becomes really challenging when there's, there's a explosive response or someone feels like they're being told that they're wrong or they're, they shouldn't, that they're being kicked out.
Then it, it seems to, there seems to be a real big boomerang effect right now with this whole idea of cancel culture where like cancel culture is not new, let's be real. It's just been a lot quieter and only been happening to certain demographics.
So now that it's, now that it seems to be able to bring down, let's say just about anyone, I think there's been a calibration that's happening that's really scary for people that have never felt like their position could be questioned. And so I think all of us need to recognize that we are bringing some level of preconceived notion to any conversation or any interaction.
So there's a lot of. That's just kind of the personal side of it, right?
The emotional intelligence side that really weighs into people's interactions and potential for success because it takes all of us to be able to make each other successful. Right. No one's, no one's a billionaire because one person gave him a billion Dollars. It's because a billion people gave him $1.
It's more about how many people are willing to believe in, give chances, invest in trust, try. So it's, I mean, it's such a bigger answer than I feel capable of solving. But I do feel like the more people that are just willing to.
It's like innovation. Like, there's persistence.
You just keep going, you keep getting new information, and you keep being willing to recognize that the problem you're trying to solve or the solution that you want to see as part of the outcome is present in the things that you're doing and how you're operating and who you're engaging with.
Mike Carey
00:36:53.028 - 00:39:23.350
Yeah, that's a great point. And I, I think it, I always come back to, you know, we are basically an animal. We're a social ammo animal with a lot of primitive DNA.
And in this industrialized world, success of a company is, is really material. You know, it's, it's on the precipice. I don't care how big you are. We've seen everybody have their difficulties.
And so you pretty much go back to the well that you feel comfortable in. And generally it's doing what you've done before and trying to stay in that, that sphere. And I just, like, I hearken it to. If you look at sports in.
Back in the early 60s, you saw very little diversity in sports.
Then you got a couple people seeing something, being aware of more than the little conclave, and they started recruiting, going out, finding someone with a meritocracy look to it, not of, oh, he's my friend's friend, he can play, let's play him. And then now you see more diversity in sports because they do recruit.
They go out and find it's, it's a very successful model and we need to do more of that. And, and it shows.
It falls a lot on the shoulders of those big companies that have that critical mass that can afford to do that without any of the executives feeling like their business in jeopardy. And then you'll find if you bring more in, and one of the mistakes we've made is diversity was bring in one. And you're diverse. Right.
But you found that it's incrementally, almost exponentially better if you bring in multiple, because then there are more shoulders that you rub against. And everything is about exposure. You get exposed to somebody new over and over. You get to know that they're just like you.
They're just somewhere, somewhere else. They look different. They do. But we all have the same Innate things. And then all those barriers seem to erode.
So it's just have to be more active in what we're doing.
Danica Carey
00:39:23.810 - 00:39:53.798
Yeah, it's a really interesting part of that social construct that, that attempted to marry kind of people's external looks with an internal quality. We all have the same mix of internal qualities.
Whatever we develop, it can be due to our culture, our demographics, our region, our education, whatever. Like, there's so many factors that go into that that I think separating those two is a big deal.
Mike Carey
00:39:53.854 - 00:40:47.966
And we've been trying to celebrate that we're all the same and we are at that basic element.
But it's, I think also equally as important to recognize and celebrate our differences because it's in that differences that you get to grab something that you hadn't seen before. And that's where something new comes about and it blossoms instead of shrinks. I mean, nature shows us that diversity is what the.
That's how everything grows in nature. You know, you have enclaves of things that are the same, but it's that cross pollinization that really brings new things that makes.
Makes the world what it is. Nothing's monolithic. And in nature, you know, I'd certainly.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:40:47.998 - 00:40:53.290
Love to see ski movies that are a lot more interesting than the same, same old, same people skiing all the time.
Mike Carey
00:40:53.330 - 00:40:54.630
Right, right.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:40:55.570 - 00:41:08.070
Anyway, so the final question we always ask everyone at the end of the podcast is what gives you hope? What gives you. I think now people are extremely down where the world is. But what's giving both of you a lot of hope?
Mike Carey
00:41:08.610 - 00:41:13.430
Looking forward, I wake up and my eyes are open.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:41:17.010 - 00:41:19.430
That might be the best answer I've ever heard for that.
Mike Carey
00:41:22.300 - 00:41:33.600
And just sharing, just sharing things with human beings, it's just. And just being alive, Just being alive and trying to share that joy of life.
Danica Carey
00:41:35.820 - 00:42:43.300
Yeah, I mean, I could point to a bunch of individuals and organizations that I feel like give me hope. But I do feel primarily that the community building that I have seen happen in the last few years in the industry gives me a lot of hope.
It feels like I'm not responsible for carrying as having as heavy of a pack and that there's a lot of like shared responsibility for movement forward. You know, like Danny Razacosta, who you had on the show, she's a massive one. National Brotherhood of Snow Sports.
They've been around for 50 plus years now.
You know, I think, I think the recognition that's becoming a little bit more common for those of us that have been here a long time that can help to support that representation that it's possible, it's realistic, it's a positive move forward. And continuing to see that network and community grow year over year, I think has been really cool.
And seeing the embracing that's happened from those that are excited about and interested in that forward progress and being a positive outcome is.
Mike Carey
00:42:44.160 - 00:43:07.544
And you represent hope, and not just you personally, which you do.
But having the interconnectivity that we get from media and the Internet that we're mostly afraid of is really giving us a chance to bond with those things that help us elevate as well.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:07.632 - 00:43:08.200
I love that.
Mike Carey
00:43:08.240 - 00:43:56.098
And if everybody participates and grows from there, we have much more blossoming than we're going to do. And I think negative things win. And that's all primitive, too. You see. Better to say me no like that.
But now we are able to say, so what do we want to do to enjoy and have everybody come together?
And it's people like you and other people who, despite the negative things in that medium, are using the medium to spread things that bring us all together. And so thank you very much.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:56.154 - 00:44:14.170
Well, thank you. And thank you both Mike and Danica Carey, for being on Open Container and being here to talk today.
It was such a pleasure to talk to you and I think we had a great conversation. And I'll be out there doing laps in your base layers.
Danica Carey
00:44:14.830 - 00:44:16.118
Nice. Thanks for having us.
Mike Carey
00:44:16.174 - 00:44:18.850
Well, we're honored to be on your show. Thank you very much.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:44:19.630 - 00:44:42.080
Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight llc.
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com our producer producers today were David Karstad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sara Gensert. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some thanks for listening.