Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Colin opens the show reacting to last weeks earnings report from Newell, owner of Marmot, that shows how the once great outdoor brand is sliding further into mediocrity.
Then Colin and Producer Dave discuss the historical significance of Marmot and its innovative past, contrasting it with mistakes that were made by their various owners (here's that Super Bowl ad they talk about).
The pair also discuss the recent earnings report that show Hoka's growth continuing to the point where they are now a $2b brand and the news that Dick's Sporting Goods is closing most of their Public Lands stores in order to convert them into House Of Sport locations (just like Colin predicted).
The wrap things up with their Parting Shots where Dave talks about the new creative team at Columbia and Colin throws a fit about a new Crocs collaborator.
Chapters:
01:42 - How Marmot became a zombie.
26:35 - Hoka continues to crush it. Can they be stopped? Where's Ahnu?
30:53 - Dick's to close Public Lands
36:24 - The Parting Shot!
Hurricane Helene Relief Links:
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Episode Transcript
Colin
00:00:00.360 - 00:01:42.451
Western North Carolina businesses need your financial support now more than ever in the aftermath of Hurricane Helene this month, Darby Communications, based in Asheville, North Carolina is donating its ad space here on the Rock Fight to help other outdoor businesses in Western North Carolina get back on their feet. Asheville Local endurance brands Fuelgoods and Precio have started a fundraiser through their Together We Rise t shirt campaign.
100% of these t shirt sales will go to local outdoor businesses that have lost everything, like rockgeist Bikepacking usa, a local bag maker, and Asheville Adventure Company, owner of Asheville's only climbing gym. Both businesses lost everything in the unprecedented flooding from Hurricane Helene.
And you can get your Together We Rise shirt and support Western north carolina@fuelgoods.com welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True.
It's Monday and I'm here with producer Dave to give you some insights into some of the latest headlines that come out of the outdoor industry. But before we get to those, we have some housekeeping items and some programming reminders.
If you're new around here, we would love for you to subscribe and join the Rock Fight by lobbing a stone at the follow button on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on. Also, if you give us that five star rating, that would be lovely.
And be sure to come back to the Rock Fight on Wednesday where Justin Houseman and I will be doing our annual Halloween outdoor movie review. Last year we did the Blair Witch Project. This year, the original 1980 Friday the 13th.
And be sure to check out our other podcast on the Rock Fight Podcast Network. And that's called Gear and Beer. And you can find it on the app you're using right now. All right, let's start the show.
Producer Dave
00:01:42.523 - 00:01:46.575
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin
00:01:47.675 - 00:08:49.485
All right, subscribers to News from the Front, Rock Fight's newsletter will recognize a few things I'm about to say because it was also the subject of my main piece in yesterday's edition of News from the Front. And if you're listening to this and you like this podcast, you really do need to subscribe to that newsletter.
Just head over to rockfight Co and click Join the mailing list. There's a lot of stuff that we talk about on the show. We expand over there. You get our action figures ahead of time.
Anyway, there's our, there's the free ad for our newsletter. But anyway, so this Thursday it's Halloween. That's my favorite holiday of the year.
But I gotta admit that given the turmoil of our presidential election, I really haven't felt much like celebrating spooky season. We don't have a lot of decorations up at my house this year, which is not normal.
But there was one story that hit the outdoor trade aggregators this past week that sparked me to get into the Halloween mood. And especially coming off the heels of last week's episode on the Rock Fight, where we took a look at the demise of Vasque at the hands of Red Wing.
Because in some ways, Vask got off easy. I really feel like it's better to be put to death than to become a zombie, which is what has happened to Marmot.
And I bring Marmot up because this past Friday, SGB reported the Q3 financial results of Newell Brands on the outdoor front.
Newell owns Marmot, Coleman and Ex Officio as well as a few others, and the news wasn't great, with the company showing a nearly 21% decline compared with Q3 last year, and outdoor brands and owners of outdoor brands having a bad quarter isn't really all that surprising these days.
But when one of your brands in your portfolio has a rightful claim to being on the Mount Rushmore of brands that built the modern outdoor industry, and I'll get to that in a second, it's worth the pause to ask, yeah, what? What happened here? So let's pull the curtain back on Marmot and talk about him for a minute.
So Marmot started in 1971 as an outdoorsy club, and they first launched their products in 1974.
And did you know the original order that really got them going was a order of custom parkas that were used in the film the Eiger Sanctions starring Clint Eastwood. Little fun fact there for all you outdoorsy people to take around and impress your outdoorsy friends from there.
For the next 30 years or so, Marmot was an integral component to the growing outdoor industry. And like I said, it truly has a legit claim.
Not saying they're definitely there, but they have a claim to be on the Mount Rushmore of brands that the industry was built upon alongside the North Face, Patagonia. And I say Timberland.
And despite my personal bias conflict of interest in doing so, I put Timberland in that fourth spot because we need a footwear brand.
They started in 1973, and despite their fashion or pop culture leanings, I mean, who else has had as large of an impact in the outdoor footwear space now that Vasque is no more and before producer Dave answers, I want to let him know that that brown sneaker brand, Merrell, has been disqualified for being lame. So until the early 2000s, Marmot regularly released innovative new products that kept their name in the conversation as one of those brands.
And that outdoor enthusiast would rattle off when considering who they wanted to buy a new piece of apparel or gear from. And that innovation pipeline culminated in 1999 with the release of the Marmot Precip.
It was a sort of crossover SUV of outdoor apparel using proprietary waterproof membranes and the Prec performance chops, but carried a more mainstream price tag of about $130. So the perfect jacket for a day hike when there was iffy weather, but also the perfect jacket for the commuter.
The raincoat for the commuter, let's say. And I can't emphasize enough the impact the Pre sip had on the outdoor apparel market when I was in Golight in 2007.
So eight years after the Preip launched, we launched a product that we described internally as the, quote, $99 Marmot Precip, right?
Like, oh, we're going to do just like the Precip, but it's going to be cheaper, so we're going to eat their lunch, you know, and it, like much of what Golight tried, failed. But through that, I learned the root, that rooting the value of something in the price tag rarely works. So at least something good came from that.
The last thing Marmot made that was pretty cool was the Isotherm, which was part of Polartech's Alpha installation launch in 2013. But even that was quickly forgotten as Marmot descended further into irrelevancy? And you kind of have to ask, what gives?
Why did Marmot's Mount Rushmore peers ascend while Marmot lost footing to the point that I'm calling them a zombie brand? And like with most things, you have to look at their ownership.
And like with most outdoor brands who have been around long enough, that's an interesting story.
So Marmot's founders were Eric Reynolds, Dave Huntley and Tom Boyce, and they owned the brand from 1974 until 1990, when after botching their entire winter product line, there was a lot of botching in most outdoor brands at that time, a lot of inconsistency.
The brand at that point was taken over very briefly by a Wall street investment firm called Spear, Leeds and Kellogg, who then sold the brand to Odyssey International.
This is where it gets interesting, because Odyssey was a Hong Kong based conglomerate that at the time also owned Sierra Designs, Head and The North Face. At one point, one owner had all of those brands.
Then in 1993, Odyssey went bankrupt and Marmot's management brand rallied to raise $3.5 million to buy the brand out of bankruptcy.
And this might be the high watermark for Marmot, because while they went back to being independently owned pretty quickly, while Sierra Designs and the North Face were impacted by the Odyssey bankruptcy for much longer, which allowed Marmot to grab market share.
That lasted pretty well until 2004 when Marmot was acquired by K2, who was then acquired by Jarden, who truly kicked off the vanilla vacation of Marmot because then Jarden was acquired by Newell in 2016, who really finished them off. And for a 50 year old brand, there's a lot of typical stuff here.
I could probably do a whole other episode on the aforementioned Sierra Designs, who actually predates Marmot by seven years in terms of when the brand was founded.
But while Sierra Designs is an important brand in the history of our industry, I don't think anyone would slot them alongside the others I put on Outdoor Mount Rushmore. And unlike the others on outdoor industry Mount Rushmore, the recent run of ownership has repeatedly let Marmot down again.
There are all sorts of examples here, but the bottom line is that when a brand moves independently owned to being owned by a corporate overlord, the emphasis moves from innovative ways to solve the wants and needs of the outdoor enthusiast to make more money. It's kind of like that scene in Goodfellas when Sonny Buns gets Paulie to become a partner in his restaurant.
Only instead of, you know, being, you know, mobster and restaurant stuff that then, you know, Paulie and Sonny have to deal with. It's just outdoor gear stuff, you know. Hey, that new Colorway didn't land with consumers. Fuck you, pay me.
Our product launch was delayed because the factory lost a shipment of zippers. Fuck you, pay me. Our entire outerwear strategy was wrong. Fuck you, pay me.
And sometimes that leads to a brand being sold or shuttered, like we talked about last week with Vasque. And if you ask me, getting old yellered is definitely preferable to becoming a zombie outdoor brand like poor Marmot.
So, Dave, I'm sure you have a lot of additional thoughts on Marmot and zombie brand. So get on in here. Come on in, Dave.
Producer Dave
00:08:50.945 - 00:09:36.645
That's where I need the sound effect of the door creaking shut coming out of the shadows. Right, Right. We're opening the cave door, which is interesting. We'll talk about that in a second.
But I think the zombie brand is actually a perfect description of brands like this. They're just kind of ambling along, neither dead nor alive. And I think that fits Marmot well.
Look, I'm going to focus kind of just on the last, what, 10 years or so in terms of where they have come.
And it does seem to me, and this is actually now that I say that probably predates this, but it seems that even before the Newell acquisition, Marmot has done everything, done their level best to not stand out. Right. If you look at their communication, that's.
Colin
00:09:36.685 - 00:09:38.925
A little too bold. Guys. Let's dial that back.
Producer Dave
00:09:39.005 - 00:11:04.103
That's right. Do you have something in a beige. This taupe is really outlandish, right?
Towing, I guess what you would call the core outdoor line of branding, their shift into apparel away from equipment look all very solid reasons, but it's just definitely the core outdoor playbook.
It's kind of like it's a raft of unshaven metal men and women smiling while hiking and holding their camp made cup of coffee with steam wafting into the morning air. You know, look, I get it, I love that whole theme, but that's just kind of where they've stopped and started with their brand.
And like I said, I'm guilty of deploying these same kind of tropes in messaging. You need them to show that you belong, but that's just kind of what their brand is.
And I would say that Marbit, really, especially with their kind of, let's call it up and down past with, with different forms of PE ownership, they've never really considered their brand as a co. Equal part of their innovation equation. Right. You know, and as an OG brand then they didn't really need to. They could stay focused on their product.
They helped define the norms of the industry. They had placement already within this narrow and gate kept channel. You know, reorder was on speed dial for a few of those brands.
Well, actually there was, there wasn't speed dial back then. So maybe it was just more like they were on a notepad. But, but the idea.
Colin
00:11:04.159 - 00:11:05.675
They're still using notepads.
Producer Dave
00:11:06.055 - 00:11:27.015
Right? Right. So you can see why they would build into that type of kind of, I don't call it rut, but definitely a, a line of thinking.
But, but, but clearly we have seen where the industry is going for 20, 30 years. The importance of brand is not something that has crept on us and caught us by surprise.
Colin
00:11:27.135 - 00:11:28.255
It's everything. Right?
Producer Dave
00:11:28.375 - 00:11:35.091
Well look, North Face, Pat, Merrill, Timberland, they all got the memo. They all got the Memo in the 90s.
Colin
00:11:35.163 - 00:11:37.363
Oh I'm breaking Meryl's balls. But like they know, they know who.
Producer Dave
00:11:37.379 - 00:13:56.845
They are and based and they invested in communication of who they are to both a core and outside audience, broader audience a long time ago. So they have all kind of, they saw that coming.
And brands like, because of that ownership sketch and look North Face really, as much as we also like to kind of pick on vf, they knew what they had with North Face and they helped it grow and realize what it could. But this goes back to this kind of these, the folks that are getting into these outdoor brands.
I feel like what you have is this larger sense of decisions about themes and tactics that are meant to stand out and be noticed, that are meant to embrace this niche culture that has always been a little bit outside of the mainstream and prides itself on such. You have the folks that make these decisions that are typically people who've spent most of their time blending in.
They are not the mavericks and the pioneers who pioneer the industry or that leverage their life savings into a houseful of unsold inventory based on a dream or an idea.
They're not the folks who self define their counterculture or that live off the beaten path or take these activities and do these things that most people don't do. The choices that they make, the brands that they choose to associate, they're from outside of that. And that's not necessarily a crime in itself.
It's just, it means it's tougher to catch the vibes of what those consumers are going to be attracted to, what may be the permissions that your brand actually does have within the market and which then gives you a guidance of how quickly or where we can take steps to broaden without alienating that group. And those can be product decisions, they can be brand decisions. So I think all of that goes into how kind of Norton Marmot finds itself.
And I've for a long time called it a, you know, a pink shirt or a neon shirt theory, right? That basically brands that stand out is alike someone who's wearing that neon shirt and you know, and it takes a braver soul to do that.
And if you look around the boardrooms that are making these decisions, you're not going to see a lot of neon, you're going to see a lot of khaki, you're going to see a lot of collars. And I'll say it, Colin, you're going to see a lot of white shirts. And their instinct is to blend pregnant.
Colin
00:13:56.885 - 00:13:58.541
Paws between white and shirts.
Producer Dave
00:13:58.653 - 00:14:49.179
Their instinct is to blend in and so what this means is you get folks who are used to blending in, making decisions about these brands and what will connect with people and identify with. And it just does. It always falls short. And so these folks making these decisions, they don't have a real read on the consumer.
And so at best, you get me too. Okay, which is again, the kind of the typical outdoorsy thing over and over. At best, you get me too.
Blend in, type marketing, you get incremental product, lowercase I, innovation or iteration, and you get this maniacal focus on broader, wider, faster market saturation versus a deliberate build of that foundation. Right. And I think so with, with that, it's not really surprising that Newell is struggling with what to do with Martin.
Colin
00:14:49.277 - 00:16:51.695
So after they published the results, SGB did a follow up with comments from Muellbrand President and CEO Chris Peterson. They did it also released on Friday. And by the way, if this gets to Chris Peterson, you're always welcome to come on the show. We'd love to have you.
I would love to hear a little bit more about the strategy for Marmot.
The thing that I found interesting in a lot of the comments that were posted in this SGB article from Peterson were they're largely focused on Coleman. And I think this goes into support a lot of what you're saying. Coleman is a, you know, a legacy brand hundreds of years old.
The Lantern is a big deal, right? They're finding we're running collectors now for their old products. They've launched a new campaign on Thursday Night Football on Amazon Prime.
Coleman is, pardon the pun, but like, is a prime brand to go on a broadcast like that on that platform on Amazon, given what they sell and what they do, not a mention in here about Marmot. And, you know, and I don't know their balance sheet maybe, you know, I don't know how profitable.
Maybe they're making just enough money on Marmot that they, they can kind of just keep it in that zombie state forever and it doesn't matter. You know, all I know is, you know, again, I mentioned it in the newsletter yesterday.
I sent, I shot some texts and emails to some folks I know at the retail market and the overwhelming response is, yeah, they don't matter anymore. Like, they're irrelevant. And the thing that's kind of sad to me about that, and this echoes back to the vast sundowner of it all.
We're just the vasque of it all exiting the 90s. I mean, you heard that part in the history that I talked about about how they got a leg up on the North Face.
Now I think that probably didn't last super long because shortly after that the North Face hit in a more pop culture sense. But from an outdoor authenticity point of view. I was working outdoor retail in the 90s. Marmot was the shit.
It was right up there with Dana Designs and Gregory.
And when hardware came along, all of these brands and to just sort of now you get to the point where we're multiple generations past that you can't rely on that. How do you even leverage that history to kind of get it back?
Young people aren't going to care unless you're just truly going to go after guys outrage, right? And even then we're going to be dubious because it hasn't mattered for 20 years.
Producer Dave
00:16:51.735 - 00:17:12.799
People aren't going to care if you don't give them reasons to care. Colin. So it's a self fulfilling prophecy. Could they care? Of course they could.
You have all of the pieces that you need from a brand storytelling to create a contemporary, desirable brand. But you have to choose to do that. And I can see too, I mean I can see the allure of why Coleman for sure, much bigger upside in.
Colin
00:17:12.807 - 00:17:13.823
A sense, makes so much sense.
Producer Dave
00:17:13.879 - 00:17:33.005
Right. And I can also see those meetings right now, right. You know, they've seen what's going on with the category of tumblers.
I mean, look what Stanley has done, you know that they're sitting there. Why can't we have Stanley? We've got Coleman. We can be cool too, right? So let's go on Amazon and be cool.
Colin
00:17:34.345 - 00:17:37.241
Okay, well, popular is different than cool.
Producer Dave
00:17:37.313 - 00:19:10.163
Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Again, it all makes sense. It all makes sense.
And look, but this is okay, I go back to this is really not surprising from a Newell and why they are struggling to what to do with Marmot. And just what you said, kind of what they're doing with Coleman makes a lot of sense. They're going straight to the Broad, right?
Going to leapfrog all of that foundation building work that you need to do. Okay. To go straight for the Broad. And this is what they did actually with Marmot.
So if you go back to when they bought the brand in 2016 or before that, the first major kind of push that they did.
And again, I can see them talking around, you know, how can we let we're going to leverage this authentic brand that we have and it's going to be this big juggernaut like Colombia and Patagonia. We're going to go out there and this is going to be huge broad. Oh my gosh so what do you do to get big fast? You do a Super bowl commercial.
Oh my gosh. Right? And it's a Super bowl commercial. We'll anthropomorphize the marmot. It'll be cute.
And we'll use music from Flight of the Concords to show that we're also cool, that we've got alt credibility, the quirky.
And we'll have this safe white guy enjoying nature with this cute rodent running around the outdoors until the joke turns into some kind of weird how dare you try and kiss me thing at the end. And it's to pay off this broad tagline called fall in love with the outdoor. They have the guy trying to kiss the marmot who rejects him. Like what?
And, and for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, I am not linked.
Colin
00:19:10.299 - 00:19:11.195
I'm sure it's on YouTube.
Producer Dave
00:19:11.235 - 00:19:14.235
I am not kidding. Okay. This actually does happen.
Colin
00:19:14.355 - 00:19:16.523
Okay, I swear I am not making this up.
Producer Dave
00:19:16.579 - 00:19:56.779
The dude hits on a marmot and is rejected. And that's the culmination of their multimillion dollar spot on the super bucks right there. Oh, more than that.
And you know, and they went with a big ad agency to make it like it is. Has it, has it, has it has Pixar level cgi.
I mean, the marmot's fur looks great, but this is what they deemed appropriate and as a spend to ignite and fortify the marmot brand. And I can see on paper why this was attractive. I mean, look, I think crass animal puppets can also be funny too. This was just not funny.
Colin
00:19:56.867 - 00:21:17.439
No. And then so that was the big launch right from there, which by the way, doesn't speak to anybody based off of the creative.
And even still putting marmot in a Super bowl ad doesn't make sense to begin with because you know how many people watch the super bowl who know even what marmot is. Then the next thing, the only other thing they really tried since then was back in the.
Just a few years ago they were trying to kind of there a lot of articles on outside online and a few other places about, oh, marmot's going to reinvigorate and change their product line and get with the times. And here comes the resurgent of marmot.
But the overwhelming theme of that sort of rebrand, not rebrand, but like rejiggering of the product line was we're going to be more for everybody and less about for the person who climbs Everest. And if you go back and look at the products that have made Marbit who they are and successful. They're top of the mountain products.
And so that's a much harder thing to do, frankly.
Like we're going to go now compete with everybody who's already doing it well and even though we have a heritage in a certain point and I, and I get it and it speaks so much easier on paper to say let's just make a lot more, you know, interesting outdoorsy looking stuff. It clearly hasn't worked. I think a year and a half, two years ago, no, probably less than two years ago they had a layoff.
All those people who worked on that project now seemingly gone. And now we are where we are where Newell is largely talking about Coleman.
Producer Dave
00:21:17.527 - 00:21:29.743
The reason you do that is because it's much easier to find the research data in your presentation to management that supports why we should go after that market opportunity because it's way bigger and those numbers are bigger and the dollars data is.
Colin
00:21:29.759 - 00:21:32.075
I took a picture of the floor at rei, right.
Producer Dave
00:21:33.035 - 00:21:54.539
So I can see why they would do that. But again I think what you're talking about now is kind of issues of brand life cycle.
Where does Marmot fit in, the ability, can they get to super bowl brand status? Of course they can. Can that be used actually as a tactic for a consumer good to get broad awareness quickly? Yes, you can.
In that way, the way they executed that's we go back to execution and.
Colin
00:21:54.547 - 00:21:56.211
Reading, even going for the bestiality crowd.
Producer Dave
00:21:56.243 - 00:23:04.907
Maybe they're loyal but I would say that yeah, since that time really the brand has never recovered. And it's not because of the shock of its poor execution. It's just more of the types of tactics that they've taken.
I've seen nothing, like you said, there's nothing but shrinkage and layoffs and hand wringing and what we're not, we're not doing. And let me, let's just be clear too, this is an ownership issue. Okay.
I have entered and you have to interacted with many people from Marmot over the years.
People who are thoughtful about the industry, they are passionate about their brand, they know what needed to be done right and they just weren't supported in this way or had these crazy unrealistic expectations that were never actually in the cards, at least in that timeframe. And I expect that there are folks there too that are doing that right now.
And so this is definitely just an inability to read the room of the brand that you have now.
And how do you build the stair step structure to broader, broader acceptance while also Reinforcing and making yourself relevant with that core industry that you're a part of.
Colin
00:23:05.091 - 00:24:02.147
Yeah, it's a good point.
I mean, I kind of yada yada yada over the Jarden years, at the time that Newell acquired them, I don't think they were any worse position probably than like a Mountain Hardware was or anybody other sort of the more quarter core brands that were now not as cool as they used to be. But whereas you saw Columbia over the last few years really invest in hardware, invest in a rebrand, invest in the legacy.
And their rebrand last year at Hardware got a lot of notoriety because it was like, oh, it's like 1993 again. Let's lean into what made us the cool brand back in the 90s. Marmot.
To your point, we just highlighted the two biggest things that have come out of Marmot in the last 10 years. It's a Super bowl ad, a poorly executed super bowl ad, and then an attempted rebrand to appease the masses. And when you kind of.
To your point, it doesn't mean you're right. They could definitely come back.
I think it's just going to continue to get harder and harder because the brand just doesn't mean anything to anybody anymore.
Producer Dave
00:24:02.331 - 00:24:06.175
This is where the zombie sound effect would be important.
Colin
00:24:07.795 - 00:24:10.339
Actually. We're apologizing to the Marmot that was in that commercial.
Producer Dave
00:24:10.467 - 00:24:15.963
We are, yeah. I've heard he's had a very checkered, checkered future from that.
Colin
00:24:16.019 - 00:24:19.515
That paid scale, you know, alcohol. They didn't let him at the craft services table.
Producer Dave
00:24:19.555 - 00:24:24.755
I think we had a story about that rogue pack of marmots in the national parks. I would not be surprised if.
Colin
00:24:24.875 - 00:24:30.715
I think he would now. He's just an ext and those things. I used to be a star.
Producer Dave
00:24:31.255 - 00:24:34.595
That's right. He's like the Corey Feldman of rodents.
Colin
00:24:36.295 - 00:24:38.831
Hey, Corey Feldman's having a moment, at least on TikTok.
Producer Dave
00:24:38.983 - 00:24:39.955
Go, Corey.
Colin
00:24:41.375 - 00:25:06.005
Well, again, Chris Peterson, anybody over at Newell, we would love to discuss this more. I'd be curious. Maybe there's something we don't know.
I think it is a brand that has a long history in the industry, so it'd be interesting to see what the plans are for it going forward. But until we get one of them to come on the show, I think it's just time to move on to say that it's time.
It's time for our weekly segment to be sure you're getting more out of the outdoors. It's time for more with Thermore.
Producer Dave
00:25:10.265 - 00:25:12.793
Maybe. Maybe Marmot could use some Thermore.
Colin
00:25:12.929 - 00:25:14.353
Just give him something to talk about.
Producer Dave
00:25:14.369 - 00:25:15.369
Connecting the dots here.
Colin
00:25:15.417 - 00:25:17.577
Yeah, maybe right about Coleman.
Producer Dave
00:25:17.761 - 00:25:29.267
Why not? I could see insulated lanterns, dude. Right? Insulated lantern with a thermos. The insulation in the thermos and lantern.
A lantern thermos with thermostat.
Colin
00:25:29.331 - 00:25:37.595
We can't keep giving you these good ideas for free. Like, let's go. You know, like, this is a. That's right. Renegotiate our ad rate for 2025.
Producer Dave
00:25:37.675 - 00:25:42.035
Coleman Thermos lantern with thermore insulation. Yeah.
Colin
00:25:42.115 - 00:25:42.499
Amazing.
Producer Dave
00:25:42.547 - 00:25:42.803
I think.
Colin
00:25:42.819 - 00:25:43.507
So into it.
Producer Dave
00:25:43.531 - 00:25:44.415
I am too.
Colin
00:25:44.715 - 00:27:15.809
Well, last week in the segment, we talked about low insulated quilted joggers, which are warm as hell thanks to Thermore Ecodown. And this week we're going to keep the lolay love going and highlight another piece that they made with Thermore's Eco down.
And that's the women's three Quarter Bomber jacket. It's one of the more popular pieces on Lille's web store.
The three Quarter bomber jacket is made with a feminine quilted design, a water repellent finish, and an incredibly soft hand. But the best feature is the one we already mentioned. It's Thermore's Eco down. 100% recycled. It's vegan.
Eco down is the sustainable alternative to down feathers and is doing all of the heavy lifting in the three Quarter Bomber jacket by working to keep you warm on chilly days while out for a hike or enjoying a day in the city. Because whether it's making amazing new garments or thermoses, or staying warm and safe out on the trail, you can do more with Thermore.
All right, let's get into a few more headlines here. First, per the Daily, thanks to another incredible quarter for Hoka, Dekker's has raised their 2025 outlook.
Hoka ended the third quarter up nearly 35% over Q3 of 2023. They weren't alone.
Other outdoor brands in Decker's outdoor portfolio recorded profitable quarters, with ugg being up 13% and Dave's favorite Teva up 2.3%. Other brands at Decker's marked a 15% decline. It really was, though, a HOKA leading the charge.
So Hoka hit $2 billion for the first time when looking back over the preceding 12 months, another big development for them. So I don't know, Dave, is there anything that can stop or slow down hoka? I mean, they're a freaking rocket ship right now.
Producer Dave
00:27:15.897 - 00:28:11.563
Yeah, other than an extinction level event? I don't think so. Look, part of this is clearly trend, so they have got the wave and they are fulfilling it. And that's just. You just can't stop.
And that will have a horizon to it for sure. But at the same time, they've created a new elevation of a product that I think it fulfills just this innate sense of comfort.
It looks comfortable, it feels comfortable. Those are really strong personal benefits to have a brand wrapped around.
And so I don't see why they would necessarily need to back away from what they've got this place in the market to stand for, that type of benefit, you know. But in terms of just the crazy growth piece of this. Yeah, I don't. There's clearly a trend element to it.
Colin
00:28:11.739 - 00:28:26.803
I'm trying to think about the last brand, at least in the footwear space. That would be a comp. Yeah, Ugg, I mean, you know, I go to five fingers, but that was so short. Like this is now like sustained over a long time.
The original, when Ugg first showed up.
Producer Dave
00:28:26.819 - 00:29:06.275
In early 2000, it shares the idea that it was fulfilling this innate human need of comfort. And it's a product that exudes that sensibility from its sight line. Like, you just look at it and it looks comfortable.
The hoka, its profile on the wall. And you look at footwear as a kind of a profile type business. Right. What is that shape? What is that appeal on the wall?
From a profile, it just looks comfortable. Right. And they're standing for that. And now their colors are attractive. That's part of the trend piece.
So they attract your eye to something that's comfortable. I think that that's what UGG was able to do as well at its time. Right.
You just looked at it and that you instantly got what it was going to provide you as a customer.
Colin
00:29:06.575 - 00:29:29.913
I saw someone posting on threads and they said, can't HOKA just make like some normal looking shoes? Like, color wise, they were talking about not the. And I'm like, you, no, let them be weird and wild and crazy colors.
Like, I feel like that is integral to their brand. And also for those of us in like the 2000s who wanted different colors and all we got were like, like brown and gray and black. This is great.
Like, yes, please let colors flourish. They're running shoes. They don't need to be boring.
Producer Dave
00:29:29.969 - 00:29:57.585
There's navy and there is a dark green. So I see what you're complaining about, right? Yeah.
I would love to know how many kind of black, gray, blue HOKA cells versus some of their other things, because that's all we see. And look, we do see them in the wild too. It's not like they're just ending up on newspaper articles or in the window. Right.
In terms of like you people are buying them and you're seeing them on feet. So there's something, there's something going on there.
Colin
00:29:57.585 - 00:30:02.409
Airports, where you go to see the shoe trends, what are people wearing at the airport? And it's all Hoka.
Producer Dave
00:30:02.457 - 00:30:16.365
Well, which again, which though that might be a little bit of a self selective environment because I'm traveling and I'm totally dialed for comfort. But still I just, I love, I love seeing what they've done. Their color, their color selection is fantastic.
Colin
00:30:16.755 - 00:30:34.115
So the other brands showing a 15% decline leads me to ask, or notice anyway, that in this report, Anu the Super shoe. Notice glaringly absent from any talk about how the new launch of Anu, AKA the Super Shoe is doing. I can only imagine.
Producer Dave
00:30:34.195 - 00:30:35.855
AKA White Hoka.
Colin
00:30:36.555 - 00:30:39.651
Yeah, exactly right. White and black Hoka.
Producer Dave
00:30:39.843 - 00:30:41.011
White Hoka.
Colin
00:30:41.203 - 00:30:42.575
Where are you? Anu?
Producer Dave
00:30:43.405 - 00:30:44.465
Uh huh.
Colin
00:30:45.125 - 00:32:56.935
No, we're going to keep tabs on Anu right up to the point where they can it for a second time. All right. All right. Next I'm going to take a victory lap because as I predicted here on the Rock fight.
Last week the Daily reported that Dick's Sporting Goods announced they would be closing five of its eight public land stores. Those five stores will be converted into other Dick's, you know, quote unquote banners, most likely their House of Sport franchise.
The remaining Public lands, which have a smaller footprint, will remain open to test the viability of a smaller format store in the outdoor specialty market. This to me is what has made sense all along. House of Sport is an experiential format for Dicks that includes outdoor elements.
There's a climbing wall, there are yoga classes. There's also batting cages and golf driving ranges and services like bike servicing. They have bike techs in there and golf regripping.
This fits what Dick's is more than trying to mold their brand into being traditional outdoor. They can dabble in the more athletic aspects of outdoor while being truer to the Dick's brand.
Kind of reminds me of what maybe a large format played against sports would be without the used gear, obviously and unfortunately or as our northeast listeners will recall, a large format city sports which also when it was around blended outdoor and athletic and traditional sporting goods. So I made my prediction that Public Lands would transition to House of Sport when House of Sport debuted to rapturous reviews.
And I understand why Dix would want to go full outdoor and try to compete with rei. But House of Sport just simply makes more sense for who and what DIX is.
And as for the remaining Public Lands shops, I mean, I guess I'm going to keep it. I got to ride my prediction. I guess they won't last very long.
And especially if House of Sport grows, they'll either close those smaller formats or create a smaller footprint of House of Sport because those shops are too small to be a traditional Dick Sporting Goods. But mostly, though, just want to say you heard it here first on the rock fight, folks. Public Lands is going away now. I did reach out.
Todd Spiletto, who's the president of Public lands over at dix, exchanged a few emails. I'm trying to get someone over there, if not Todd, somebody else to come out and talk about this on the show. I've not set that up yet.
I'll keep you guys posted. But Dix, what do you think about DIX in Public Lands here, Dave?
Producer Dave
00:32:56.975 - 00:33:58.485
Well, look, like we said, we've seen this coming. It's for sure. It was always kind of an imperfect fit. Look, I don't like it when any kind of anybody who's putting their.
Their dollar in support of outdoor recreation and the industry I am down with. So even when they launched, is it a perfect match? No. But is it a, you know, is it good to have a. Another big box option?
Yeah, a big box option to even rei. Yep, it sure is. You know, and I still think there's probably a space for where they were trying to fill.
It's probably being filled by Sierra right now. I mean, in a weird way. Yeah. How long until Public Lands is just a shop and shop within this House of Sport, which. That's what I see coming. Right.
Which would make sense too. It's just not its own independent store. But why not brand your outdoor section of your larger multi sport experience that way?
I just totally makes sense. So, yeah, like we said, I just, I like to see the effort. Good for them.
Colin
00:33:58.645 - 00:34:32.353
Totally. I think it's cool. And I like the fact that they're willing to pivot.
I mean, I think we get so much stuck in these, like, it's got to be this way because it always was this way. Or we don't want it to try something new. And it's like, look, you know, do I think about.
We've talked on the show about how I'll go into a Dix and it's.
There's a lot of what I find at REI at a traditional dix, so they're already succeeding with Patagonia as a vendor and the North Face as a vendor and all this stuff. Why not? Of course. And then they also then to say, well, let's evolve that to this house of Sport model.
And like, well, this is killing it because it's closer to our original brand. Well, let's move off of this, you know, true outdoor thing. It makes a lot of sense.
Producer Dave
00:34:32.409 - 00:34:39.745
Will we see a tight marmot collection in the public land? Shop and shop in the Dick's hall of House of Sports.
Colin
00:34:40.125 - 00:34:47.237
You know, Dicks, you might want to give Newell a call. They might be. There might be some open to listen on the marmot brand. They could be. Could become your house brand.
Producer Dave
00:34:47.381 - 00:34:50.877
Listen, open to buy. I think we have something here.
Colin
00:34:51.061 - 00:35:15.897
Yeah. Well, anyway, good on you, Dix. We'll keep an eye on that, I suppose.
All right, well, we're going to take one quick break to hear about the Great Malden outdoors, and then we're going to come back with our parting shots. This episode of the Rock Fight is brought to you by the Great Malden Outdoors, an outdoor enablement campaign in the city of Malden, Massachusetts.
And the brains behind this initiative, Darren Joosse, he's here with me right now. Darren, first of all, what is an outdoor enablement campaign?
Darren Josey
00:35:16.001 - 00:35:26.633
An outdoor enablement campaign provides four things. Advertising, resources, programming, and youth development.
These are the four things that I believe are really important to getting more people outside.
Colin
00:35:26.769 - 00:35:30.233
So why is this campaign important to DEI efforts in the outdoor industry?
Darren Josey
00:35:30.329 - 00:35:57.129
We have to start by getting more people outside, and that can start their journey from one, becoming someone who just enjoys outdoor recreation as a lifestyle. But two, a path for a job. No one told me that going outside and rock climbing could lead to a job one day or fishing or bike riding.
Didn't know that was a thing until I got into the industry. And I want to change that and start that journey a lot earlier for way more people in our society.
Colin
00:35:57.217 - 00:36:00.721
Hey, man. And lastly, how can outdoor brands and retailers help or participate?
Darren Josey
00:36:00.833 - 00:36:18.769
Go to thegreatmaldenoutdoors.com, click on the contact button and reach out. We are always looking for donations for gear, funds and expertise.
You can lend your existing staff to lead an online course, or if you're in the New England area, come on down and lead a class. We're looking for more programming.
Colin
00:36:18.817 - 00:36:39.619
Head to thegreatmaldenoutdoors.com and click Contact to build a partnership today. All right, it's time for the parting shot, Dave.
Producer Dave
00:36:39.747 - 00:37:22.195
So, okay, Colin, My, my parting shot has to do with the announcement of Colombia undergoing a massive quote unquote rebrand, which, you know, I'm usually good for a good rebrand, you know, when it makes sense and.
But what I my shot is the fact that they have gone outside of the country, in fact to find a London based ad agency, big ad agency, you know, McDonald's, Unilever, you know, big, big brands to take on their, to take on their rebrand because, you know, Portland, Oregon and North America didn't have enough creative juice for them.
Colin
00:37:22.975 - 00:37:24.831
God, if only New York City was part of the agency.
Producer Dave
00:37:24.863 - 00:38:19.155
Well, they've got, you know, to be fair, the agency does have a New York location, of course, you know. Right, right, right. But look, I hope they take this in a great place. I don't have a lot of confidence in Columbia's ability.
They've worked with some pretty great creative people in the past and they've just never ever really put out stuff that I would think is interesting. We're going to move the market in any way.
I think they tend to have an interesting view of themselves as not really this outdoor brand that they are even a mainstream outdoor brand. I think they aspire to be something far more sophisticate. Yeah.
Which it just always seems to be a little bit of, you know, incongruity there, but who knows. But good for them.
They're going to spend a ton of money and they're going to do a lot of iterations and a lot of binders with multiple pages and we'll a lot of research and we'll see, we'll see what happens.
Colin
00:38:19.695 - 00:38:40.935
Do you think they'll.
Because if they could stay in the lane that Columbia sort of owns, is that sort of, you know, that we're talking about earlier, like the khaki Larry outdoor lane, is that could they come up with something what could be interesting about that? Or do you think that now the chops of this creative agency are way too well. They won't do anything that boring concept.
Producer Dave
00:38:40.975 - 00:39:09.379
It's going to be high concept and it'll be beautiful and it'll be thoughtful and like I said, it belongs on a big mainstream broadcast. And that's their brand is at a size of that. It's just the nature of the individual who likes to go outside or to see them.
You know, it would be the same thing if only advertising an SUV is something to pick up a drink order at a drive through. Right. I mean, is that the reality? Yeah, of course it is. But that's not, that's not what you wrap your brand or your capability.
Colin
00:39:09.467 - 00:39:10.379
That's not your commercial.
Producer Dave
00:39:10.427 - 00:39:10.771
Yeah, right.
Colin
00:39:10.803 - 00:39:11.939
That's not your super bowl commercial.
Producer Dave
00:39:11.987 - 00:39:25.225
Right, right. So like I said, it's just, it's just kind of a.
It's just kind of a what you want your brand to aspire to be versus being literal about what it is on paper. Right. And I just.
Colin
00:39:25.265 - 00:39:27.925
When do you think we'll see results of this higher year?
Producer Dave
00:39:28.225 - 00:39:41.489
Oh, yeah. Again, they just did the announcement. I don't know how long down the path they are. I mean that, like I said, there's going to be.
Oh, there's going to be a lot of revisions in that column. There's going to be meeting after meeting after meeting to revise this fall 25.
Colin
00:39:41.537 - 00:39:42.845
Is probably when this will be.
Producer Dave
00:39:43.185 - 00:39:45.265
Probably. Probably. We'll see.
Colin
00:39:45.385 - 00:41:28.815
All right, well, we'll keep an eye on that. My parting shot. Well, folks, if the notion of another Trump presidency wasn't enough to make you think that the apocalypse is nigh, than this should.
Crocs has partnered with Bark to create crocs for pets. That's right. You can now buy crocs for your dog.
And I often feel like the lone voice, a reason lobbying to return to a croc less world where we can only.
Where we only create shoes that require real design, craftsmanship and manufacturing acumen rather than slipping our feet into foam prisons that make you look like a dumbass simply because they feel squishy.
And while I long ago recognized that I can be objectively right about this, because I am, I also know that my pushback on crocs will have zero impact on the world, given how the crocs virus has spread in the past two decades. But God damn it, what fucking good does it do you crocs enthusiasts to put fucking crocs on your fucking dog?
Outdoor dog booties have been a thing for a very long time.
And there are specific instances where you do want to protect your dog's tootsies from snow or sharp rocks or other elements that can ruin your favorite hiking buddy's day. But I know when I'm going to see crocs on a dog.
And it's going to be at the airport on a giant doodle whose fur has been dyed to match their Gen Z owner's hair, who is claiming that their dog is required for their mental stability to fly like an hour and a half from San Diego to fucking Phoenix or something ridiculous. And that's the dog that's going to have crocs on.
And everyone should right now give me kudos for my ability in that instance to Just shake my head and let that shit go without saying something. So long as my seat is not next to them on that flight. Crocs are dogs. Crocs for your dog are dumber. Please, everyone, let's just stop being dumb.
We can do better. And that's my parting shot.
Producer Dave
00:41:29.955 - 00:41:30.735
Wow.
Colin
00:41:31.115 - 00:41:32.187
Yes, wow.
Producer Dave
00:41:32.331 - 00:41:42.255
Well, I can tell you, Colin, that there are folks in like, say, Florida that will agree with you completely. Because down there, crocs swallow quite a few dogs.
Colin
00:41:44.395 - 00:41:47.651
Crocs? Crocs for pets. Not what you think.
Producer Dave
00:41:47.723 - 00:41:49.375
That's right. That's right.
Colin
00:41:50.745 - 00:41:54.809
This is a pet euthanasia agency. Crox for your pet.
Producer Dave
00:41:54.857 - 00:41:56.245
I got a marmot for you.
Colin
00:41:57.665 - 00:42:01.089
My God. All right, man. Well, I guess that's the show. Should we wrap it up there?
Producer Dave
00:42:01.177 - 00:42:02.205
I think we better.
Colin
00:42:02.625 - 00:42:24.017
All right, well, the Rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight llc, our producer today, you heard him. He had a lot to say. It was David Karstadt. Art direction provided by Sarah Genslert. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And he's here to take us out.
It's Chris Dem. He's gonna sing. He's in Australia right now, but he's gonna sing it right now from here for us. The Rock Fight Fight song. We'll see you next time.
Rock Fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:42:24.081 - 00:43:19.915
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree we talk about human powered outdoor activities and pic bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head this is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock Fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the Rock Fight Rock fight. Rock fight.
Welcome to the rock flight Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the Rock Fight Rock fight. Rock fight.
Colin
00:43:21.935 - 00:43:22.535
Rock fight.