People Do What’s Easy, Obvious, and Convenient
- colin7931
- Aug 12
- 36 min read
Today we open the container with environmental journalist, Sophie Benson.
Doug begins the show discussing the need for sustainability; both due to consumer behavior and in order to achieve environmental conservation. He explores the idea that individuals gravitate towards choices that are easy, obvious, and convenient, which directly impacts their decision making processes and spending habits.
Doug is then joined by Sophie Benson, a journalist whose work focuses on sustainable fashion, the environment, workers’ rights, and consumerism. Their discussion takes a look at the complexities of human behavior in outdoor settings, where hikers frequently opt for shortcuts, underscoring the challenge of encouraging environmentally responsible practices.
Doug and Sophie go on to examine the relationship between sustainability, economic viability, and the welfare of our communities while positing that meaningful change necessitates a holistic approach that integrates ethical considerations with practical solutions.
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Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:00.240 - 00:00:14.640
People do what's easy, obvious and convenient.
If hikers are going to continue to cut a switchback in one spot because it's the easiest way to descend a hill, it makes no sense to try and force them to go a quarter mile around.
Sophie Benson
00:00:15.120 - 00:00:25.480
Put me in like a full body puffer suit in bright pink and orange and I would be happy. I will very briefly work with some artisans and we'll repackage it and brand it as our own.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:25.480 - 00:00:30.480
How can we take care of people and at the same time not destroy the place we live?
Sophie Benson
00:00:31.120 - 00:00:43.900
Yeah, that is. That is the kind of fundamental question.
And I think our economy sort of hangs really perilously on the necessity of a cycle of overproduction over consumption.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:46.940 - 00:09:37.560
Hey everyone, I want to thank you for listening to Open Container and ask that you please subscribe to the show by clicking Follow on the podcast app you're using right now. Following the podcast is the best way to ensure that we will continue to crack open the container every single week.
Thanks and let's get back to the show. Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. I'm a journalist, writer, and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and no matter how much it bothers you, I make some damn good vegan barbecue.
On this podcast we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Let's get some I was trained in Leave no Trace by the National Outdoor Leadership School Knolls.
I spent a month kayaking in Baja, paddling to deserted beaches and having lunch in the tiny town of San Nicolas with locals who gave us Jamaica to drink.
To refill our water containers, we hiked back into a narrow canyon and scrambled up to a small, sheltered pool of water in the desert, a tanaha stuck between saguaros and cholla where water spiders danced on the surface. Leave no Trace is a guiding principle at Knowles, and a good one. It was here that I first learned these ethics.
Of course, the one point of Leave no Trace that stands out to everyone is pooping. I admit I was horrified by the idea of using a rock as toilet paper, but I understood the ethos.
As the trip progressed, I gained an admiration for very smooth stones.
What I learned about the planet, about Leave no Trace, minimizing impact and simply doing as little damage as possible, was not just good for the health of the ecosystem, but also for our communities and humanity in general.
It also helped me develop the personal taking care of yourself and making sure, you cause as little damage in your wake as possible is a powerful personal commitment. I've tried my best to live by it ever since.
When I started working for the Forest Service, especially doing wilderness ranger work, I was hardcore Leave no trace. I would find a cairn at the top of a remote peak I'd scrambled up to and rip it to pieces.
I would destroy fire rings, scatter the rocks, and drag logs into campsites to obliterate them. I took these ethics seriously, almost too seriously.
At one point, I went to a Wilderness Ranger Rendezvous, a gathering of professionals and seasonals who worked in wilderness areas for the Forest Service, National Park Service and Bureau of Land Management. It was a powerful gathering, full of ideas, and of course we discussed ethics. My mind changed then and there.
I gained a deeper understanding of the ethics in my own heart and how to teach them how to really make a difference. A wilderness ranger or manager from Mount Rainier national park gave a speech mostly about people cutting switchbacks on trails.
She brought up a principle that has guided me in multiple ways, from working on trails to making business decisions ever since. It was simple. People do what's easy, obvious and convenient.
If hikers are going to continue to cut a switchback in one spot because it's the easiest way to descend a hill, it makes no sense to try and force them to go a quarter mile around. You have to work with what people will do naturally.
You have to construct a trail that follows that shortcut or give them a compelling reason to take the longer way around.
Likewise, she said, if you destroy a lakeside campsite and it's one of the few good spots to camp around the lake, people will still camp there despite Leave no Trace ethics suggesting otherwise. The better solution is to make that one spot as durable as possible so that people camp only there and don't damage the pristine surroundings.
People do what's easy, obvious and convenient. That's the key to successful efforts. When it comes to sustainability, we can't force people to do the right thing.
Think about when consumers make buying decisions. We'd love to believe that sustainability and ethics are driving those choices. And for a small vocal subset of people, that's true.
But generally, buyers look at price. They look at how good it looks on them. They look at how it's going to be used. This reality isn't a bad thing.
If you want to make a sustainable product. If you want it to succeed, you have to make the better product. Also, the easier, more affordable and more attractive choice.
That's the secret to success and to good Business sustainability is a buzzword that's used so often and sometimes so vaguely that we don't even understand what it means anymore. That opens the door for greenwashing, talking about sustainability without doing anything to actually reduce our impact on the planet.
And let's talk about that impact. Currently, we are a blight.
We continue to use up resources, pump pollutants into the groundwater and atmosphere, and consume as if our resources will last forever. All of this while our population grows exponentially and our ecosystem faces increasing damage. We only have one planet, and yes, it's resilient.
But our ability to live and thrive on it depends on making responsible choices.
The United nations defines sustainability as meeting the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. That's a definition worth living by. Sustainability is a difficult balance. It has to include people and economies.
That means truly sustainable systems must take care of communities, provide markets and businesses that allow people to live healthy and safe lives. I've often heard the refrain, if you want to be sustainable, buy nothing and make nothing.
But there are many countries and people already stuck in difficult economic situations, buying little, making less. These are not sustainable situations. The root problem is that sustainability is not always easy, obvious, or convenient.
The easy thing to do is pollute, to cause damage, to ignore the consequences for business, for industry, for human impact. And we have plenty of politicians and groups who will continue to do the easy thing.
In fact, we're now seeing a rash of laws that make it even easier to do the wrong thing. This shortsightedness is catastrophic. If we want a more sustainable planet, we have to work very hard for it.
We'll have to find ways to make sustainability easy, obvious and convenient. We'll also have to ensure that sustainability includes people.
And this, I believe, is a place where both the right and the left can agree hyperlocalism.
Having brands and businesses tied to a single region or town can be a powerful way to create businesses with lower impacts that also respects people, their traditions and their work. This is true in the US where companies like Recover Brands have done incredible work.
They make products from sustainable fabrics and maintain a supply chain within 100 miles of their Charlotte, North Carolina headquarters, all while supporting the region's once thriving textile industry, where knowledge, craft and hard work still exist.
Likewise, in developing countries, we can use microlending and other forms of support to help people create thriving businesses without placing undue burdens on resources. Once again, people are the key to sustainability.
My guest today is doing incredible work supporting sustainability in the fashion space and has deep insight into both sustainability and style in the outdoor industry. Sophie Benson is a freelance journalist working with a focus on sustainable fashion, the environment, workers rights and consumerism.
She writes for publications including Vogue, Vogue Business, the Guardian, the Independent and Raconteur. Her first book, Sustainable Wardrobe, provides practical advice and projects for eco friendly fashion. So let's open the container with Sophie Benson.
I am excited to have the most glamorous person we will ever have on Open container here today straight from the uk. Sophie Benson, thank you so much for.
Sophie Benson
00:09:37.560 - 00:09:41.240
Having me and for the very, very probably nicest intro I've had.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:41.320 - 00:09:45.320
Well, Sophie, tell me, what is a stylish outdoor look?
Sophie Benson
00:09:45.560 - 00:09:59.480
I'm going to differ from most people here because to me a stylish outdoor look is like pure 1980s clashing, puffer everything, just absolute bad taste. Nothing about me is, is subtle.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:59.560 - 00:10:07.160
Do you think that outdoors is actually kind of gaining some credence? Is it kind of a thing now in the style and fashion world that you run in?
Sophie Benson
00:10:07.750 - 00:10:50.270
Yeah, for sure. I mean it's just absolutely infiltrated everything. I mean you've got huge collaborations.
So you've got like Moncler Genius which does like outerwear, puffer jackets, like really conceptual kind of outerwear. Like North Face has collaborated with everyone you can think of, like Gucci, Juno Otanabe, Margiela. It's just everywhere.
Acteryx, I think is just now lots of people just wear that as like a fashion brand. Hoka.
And on go to Fashion Week you will see everyone wearing those shoes and then obviously like you've got things like Gorpcore, I don't know did that come to the US but you can go and walk down the street, you know, in the middle of London and you'll have people walking around like they're going to go on a, on a hike. So 100% it has infiltrated, it's everywhere.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:10:50.750 - 00:10:57.790
And now most of those people probably aren't going to go on a hike. Or are they? Is it going, is it cross pollinating? Are people now doing a little more.
Sophie Benson
00:10:58.030 - 00:11:29.850
I think it's hard to say. I would say that the way I'm seeing it is that I think fashion is kind of taking the aesthetic, aesthetic side of it.
I mean, I'm sure there are definitely functional elements to the clothes and looks just by kind of definition, by design. But I really think that fashion is more just taking the, it looks great.
We like the look rather than here's our fashion editors and they're all going out on a hike.
You Know, I'm definitely seeing kind of outdoorsy shoots and lookbooks and things like that, but I can't see yet that it's translating to, like, a big relationship with the outdoors.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:30.250 - 00:11:35.050
So we're not seeing people getting on climbing walls or not that kind of thing yet. Right.
Sophie Benson
00:11:35.050 - 00:11:54.630
I mean, I'm sure you've got your core of people who've always had that sort of run between the two different worlds, but I don't think yet it's translating into we are converting people to being like outdoorsy people. It's starting with the clothes. Then maybe someone will look at their North Face Gucci jacket and think, you know what?
Actually, that could be really good for a hike. Maybe that's a little bit further down the line.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:55.670 - 00:11:59.910
They're going to see you in that full puffer bodysuit and definitely want to be like you and get out there.
Sophie Benson
00:11:59.910 - 00:12:02.710
No one will be able to resist. Everyone's going to want to be in on that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:06.680 - 00:12:10.440
Where do you go in that fall puffer suit? Where do you like to be outside?
Sophie Benson
00:12:10.920 - 00:12:27.880
I'm lucky to live in kind of quite a green area in the north of England, so I don't have access to, like, mountains and things, which I would love to. So I'm more of like a parks, like to go to the beach, that kind of thing. So just any kind of nature.
Spend a lot of time in my garden as well, which I know isn't quite mountaineering, but as much as much time in the outdoors as I can.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:27.880 - 00:12:46.590
I think there's a lot of people in the outdoor world who get upset about this. Right. That outdoor brands are losing their authenticity by bleeding more over into just fashion and casual.
There's other people who think that's a great thing because the brands and the aesthetic need to evolve so that gardening can be just as much outdoors as mountaineering. Right?
Sophie Benson
00:12:46.750 - 00:13:48.180
Yeah, I think so. And I do get that.
But at the same time, I think when you start to move past even the kind of gatekeeping of an aesthetic, then maybe that's a gateway into, okay, you're opening up the world in general.
Like, if someone might not have heard of, like, Platter Museum, for example, the everyone's wearing the back their bags that they have with the Caribbean. It's like they're a big thing. People probably hadn't heard of those until, like, they saw their mate who works at a magazine wearing one.
But then maybe if they're introduced to that, and then they start following them on Instagram, for example, and then they think, oh, okay, maybe this Looks like a good pastime. So I do get that. I do kind of get that protectionist kind of response that people would have.
But I think if there's any way to kind of spread the appeal of actually being outdoors and then therefore actually build a relationship with nature, with what we're taking from it, with natural resources, then I do think it's a good thing. Is it happening on a grand scale? Maybe not.
But if you're kind of getting the message out there and opening the doors to it, then, you know, I think that can only be a good thing.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:48.340 - 00:14:04.650
Well, and I guess there's the utility too, right, that outdoor brands are using materials that are going to hold up better maybe than some other from outside. The outdoor brands as well as usually outdoor brands have a good sustainability story too. And I know that's another focus of yours.
Sophie Benson
00:14:04.970 - 00:14:30.450
Yeah, definitely. There are huge conversations in fashion at the moment about things like durability, about things like repair and circularity.
And that definitely has just has been a thing in the outdoor community for a while, whether it was like gaffer taping up a hole in your coat or actually re waterproofing it, all those kind of things. So I think if we can kind of borrow that ethos, then great. Definitely you want to see more of it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:14:30.450 - 00:14:44.050
What outdoor brands? Get it. What outdoor brands? I mean, Arcarix you mentioned, right.
Are there other brands that you think really understand how to keep their core authenticity yet also move into a broader appeal?
Sophie Benson
00:14:44.290 - 00:15:41.180
For me, I mentioned them earlier, but the one who I think is kind of is just absolutely infiltrating fashion like appeal pace I've never seen before is definitely the North Face. I still consider it one that is trusted for its quality and still has that kind of, I guess, like believability and authenticity on both sides.
So I think that's a good example of kind of a brand that I think couldn't bridge both. But then also I think there are brands that haven't tried to do that, but have just kind of been adopted into the fashion world anyway.
So like coat epoxy, for example, I have a lot of time for that brand. What they've done really well is that, yes, I think they're built on really great values, but also they just look great.
So someone like me, for example, I'm really drawn to like the colors and the clashing and things like that. And I think that's a really great, great way to. To get a new audience and kind of stealthily get sustainability into people's wardrobes.
Just actually by Looking really great and being really desirable just by design.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:15:41.580 - 00:16:02.320
Yeah, that's a great point. I've always thought that, you know, as much as people push for sustainability, it's not really a consumer choice. Right.
I always think the first thing people are going to look at is price.
For most people, there's people who don't care about price, then they really care about how it's going to look on them, utility, how they're going to be able to use it and then sustainability, sort of an added value at the end, right?
Sophie Benson
00:16:02.400 - 00:16:42.860
Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
And I think research has shown us that time and time again that for every survey that says people are willing to spend like 30% more to get more sustainable clothes, the intention versus the action is very different. And we know that when you're being interviewed for a survey that you kind of say things that, that reflect well on you. It's kind of a proven thing.
We're not very reliable narrators of our own intentions. So absolutely, you have to hit those, those points. And I would love it if everyone's first choice was is this got emotional and physical durability.
But it's just not the case. You have to hit price. You have to hit like you say, the other aspects too. It's just non negotiable.
And someone's not going to buy something just because it's sustainable. It has to tick all the boxes.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:16:43.270 - 00:16:59.990
Yeah, I think some of those brands you talked about too. I mean, arc', Teryx, I put an arc' Teryx jacket on and it just feels and looks good.
First of all, right, Cotopaxi as well, you're like, you know, I think especially with younger demographics, it's caught on, it's really big. So fashion still rules no matter where you are, right?
Sophie Benson
00:17:00.150 - 00:17:23.840
Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean even with me like my whole everything about kind of what I do, what I write about is 100% kind of driven by sustainability.
It's, it changes, it impacts everything I do. But if I don't like how something looks, it's not going to work in my wardrobe, then I'm still not going to buy it.
It could be made with the best materials out there by someone who's paid incredibly well. But if it's not my color, if it's not my style, I'm not buying it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:17:26.880 - 00:17:44.190
I know that another one of your focuses is consumerism and I love that as just a focus in general to think about how we buy things. And why do you think that the outdoors kind of as a sector is getting overly commodified overly consumist. Is that a problem? I don't know.
Sophie Benson
00:17:44.430 - 00:18:50.950
Yeah, I mean, I think it suffers from the same pressures that the rest of the apparel industry does.
For all of the kind of wishes and wants for things to be used, for life, for generations to be repaired, etc, brands still have the pressure to actually to keep selling. So of course that is going to come in to the marketing.
And I think there's just an inflation of consumption that we've seen across the last sort of 20, 30 years. So whereas before, you know, you might have had an outdoor co and that would kind of work for all scenarios.
You know, you might want the new season limited edition, you might want one that you go skiing in, you might want one that you go walking in, whatever. And I don't think we take a sort of multifunctional approach to things from a sort of consumer perspective anymore.
It's that consumption inflation that I think every, every industry is suffering from, including the outdoor industry. And it just inherently seeps into marketing strategies. It kind of has to, to survive, which is a really sort of sad fact.
But I think that is, that is kind of the way it is at the moment.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:18:51.190 - 00:19:16.440
Cross country skis run into this problem.
If you create something that you're going to own for 20, 30 years or more, it's hard to keep going as a business because you've made that one sale and you can't make another sale. To me, that always seems to be one of the biggest hurdles if you're trying to work in sustainability and work in consumer society. Right.
How do I make money and do the right thing is tough.
Sophie Benson
00:19:16.440 - 00:20:15.140
Yeah, yeah, but I mean, I guess that's where you have to look at other revenue streams. So you have to look at things like repair, you have to look at things like resale and even like, especially for outdoor wear.
I think this is, it's way more appropriate for outdoor gear than it is for fashion is things like modularity, like can you sell a core piece that is supposed to be last for 30 years, but then does it have a hood? Does it have like, I don't know, zip on mittens or like a rain shell or something like that.
I think you can build in really interesting like functional modularity models that have real world scenarios. I think it makes so much more sense for outdoor gear than it does for fashion where you kind of want a new look for every event or whatever it is.
If you take the creativity that you need to design clothes and actually add that to your business model, I think you can make money without just having to sell, sell, sell new things every season. But it just takes a bit of bravery, and it's hard to be the first brand to do that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:18.500 - 00:20:26.040
Well, let's back up a minute maybe, and I'll ask you a broader question, which is, what is sustainability? What does it mean to you?
Sophie Benson
00:20:26.680 - 00:21:47.820
Yeah. God, that's so hard. And I. I kind of feel like the definition has changed because the goalposts have moved.
So, honestly, if you'd asked me kind of 10 years ago what sustainability, I would have said things like, it's using better materials, it's resale, it's repair. But I think. I think now we've kind of realized it's not enough. So I think realistically this is what it should have meant the whole time.
But I think now I frame it more specifically in terms of kind of planetary boundaries. So what actually can physically the planet sustain? So are we using resources at a rate faster than they can be regenerated?
Are we creating waste at a rate that's faster than it can be. Can be dealt with?
I think the answer to that currently, across the board, is yes, until we are willing to, and I know the word degrowth I think is thrown around a lot, but until we're willing to actually reduce output to a level that is in line with safe planetary boundaries. And I don't think we can really claim sustainability because the fact is it cannot literally ecologically be sustained.
And I think we have to start looking at it like that as we start to cross, you know, various tipping points. I mean, it's such a tricky question. I think sustainability means lots of different people, but I think we have to be that literal about it.
Like, can the Earth literally sustain what we're doing?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:21:48.300 - 00:22:01.700
What brands do you think have really walked that walk? What brands have not just led the way, but actually, like, done the work.
When it comes to real sustainability, as you're talking about, there's some that are.
Sophie Benson
00:22:01.700 - 00:24:40.060
Favorites of mine that. And I think the fact is as well that they're not operating at huge scale. So I think inherently they obviously have less of an impact.
And so if you're already a big brand, of course that's something that you have to grapple with. There's a really great brand in the UK called Story mfg. It's a slow fashion brand, so it uses natural fibers, natural dyes.
But also it is really invested in working with kind of traditional techniques and artisans, and it's really invested in showing that process and demonstrating the inherent value in the Human skill and the natural resources that go into its clothes and the messaging on its clothes. So it's almost a little bit kitschy. So it might have a slogan that says, like, soil maze instead of soul mates. It does kind of fit.
It feels like an ode to nature in a way. And I really like.
It doesn't just have the connections, nature in terms of how it works, but actually it makes, like, an aesthetic and an ideological connection there as well, which I think is great. Working slowly, not making more than it needs, not giving things away to influencers. Therefore it's not devaluing. I think that's fantastic.
So that's a side that I think, you know, a brand that is creating things from scratch, I think is doing really well. And on the other side of things, a brand that is working with existing resources. There's a brand called Palm Wine Ice Cream.
The design is called Kusi Kooby. And so he has Ghanaian heritage. Ghana is obviously a huge. It's become a huge kind of dump for. For clothes from the West.
And so he has seen the impact of overconsumption, overproduction.
So his brand takes what already exists and upcycles it into really kind of cool and interesting clothing and then also combines it with local fibers as well. And he. He describes himself as being a bit of a bridge between, like, sort of Ghanaian heritage and the London fashion scene.
And again, he's kind of working within the boundaries of what already exists and sort of using that as a. As a catalyst to be really creative. So for me, those are two brands that I think are doing it fantastically.
And then, you know, if I look on a bigger scale, I was reading through Cotopaxi's impact report the other day, and I thought it was really interesting because they said they're considering the implementation of a cap on the number of products they produce per season. And I have not really seen brands start to commit to that before.
And I think that's a way that you can start to actually think about boundaries, like, how much can we responsibly create?
And so I would love to see more brands who are already operating at a big scale actually grapple with the volume, because that's at the core of so many problems.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:24:40.460 - 00:24:59.220
Wow, this is great. This gives us so much to talk about here.
The first thing I want to ask about is when you say Ghana is a dumping ground for clothes, that's the kind of thing I know here in the U.S. like, we have the super bowl, and they always joke about, like, the super bowl loser. T Shirts that they printed up beforehand go to. So I'm kidding. Africa, is this the kind of thing we're talking about where it's. It's excess clothing?
Sophie Benson
00:24:59.220 - 00:25:06.180
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So there's a. I mean, there's a huge export business. So here in the uk we have charity shops that you call them. Thrift store.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:25:06.180 - 00:25:08.260
Not thrift stores, but vintage or thrift stores.
Sophie Benson
00:25:08.260 - 00:26:22.810
Yeah, yeah. So you'll donate your clothing, but very often it's not good enough to be sold.
So it will be exported and by the millions of tons it will be exported to lots of countries in Africa and other countries in the global south. And Ghana is a particular hub. The biggest secondhand market, contementary market is in Accra and Ghana.
And they receive, I think it's about 15 million garments a week. And approximately half of that leaves the market as waste because it can't be sold or it's not suitable for the climate, the sizes aren't right, etc.
And so, you know, there are really impactful images of clothing just piling up. It's impacted into the soil, it's tangled into meters and meter long. They call them tentacles, you know, actually on the beach, in the ocean.
So it's massively impacting the local community, the local environment.
But it's also our influx of waste has also kind of decimated local textile industries because the cheap price of it undercut local textiles, left people without jobs. They were forced to work in secondhand markets.
So the impacts are so far reaching that I think brands have to take responsibility or be accountable for the waste that they generate before it goes offshore.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:26:23.900 - 00:27:09.760
That's wild.
No, the second thing you brought up, and I think's really interesting, is talking about, when we talk about sustainability, we're also talking about the people, the artisans, right? Not just the artisans, the knowledge, right. The knowledge base from cultures, from communities, from all of that here in the States.
Often conservatives, well, love to make fun of some liberal idea of sustainability or something, but this actually gets in what's also a conservative idea, right, which is scaling back from globalization, might be a place where these two opposing political ideologies actually meet.
That sustainability that includes local craftspeople and local communities is something we can maybe all agree on and can help beyond just what we typically think of as sustainability.
Sophie Benson
00:27:10.560 - 00:28:32.800
The model that we're seeing at the moment is, I think, is fairly extractive. So, and this is, you know, my perspective from, from the fashion side of things.
So a brand will kind of go in like the look of something they'll like technique. And they go, oh, we want that.
Maybe we'll steal the idea, or maybe we'll very briefly work with some artisans and we'll, we'll repackage it and brand it as our own.
Whereas there is really a move to kind of, as any community should have, actually reinstate that agency that they own, that intellectual, that cultural intellectual property, that they own that technique and that they should benefit from it. And then any use of it should be based on kind of consent and consensus.
When you start to look at it from, from that point of view, then I think things start to become a lot fairer.
And then what you can also see is an industry that can work in tune with more traditional, not just production techniques, but actually production timelines, which are obviously a lot slower than what we're used to. I think that'll be something to grapple with, but I think it's.
For me, that is definitely an avenue to just a much better, more grounded and localized industry, like you say, which I just think is a really interesting point you make about that. It's weirdly a middle ground between the left and the right.
We kind of all want near shoring and on shoring, but I don't think we maybe don't want it for the same reasons, but maybe we can make some progress there.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:28:36.400 - 00:28:45.930
We talk about greenwashing. What are some greenwashing tricks that maybe brands are pulling now that people aren't as aware of that they should be?
Sophie Benson
00:28:46.490 - 00:29:52.370
We're still definitely seeing things like small scale collections being used as sort of the, the driving narrative for sustainability, where realistically it represents maybe 1% of a brand's overall output. But, you know, things that I'm seeing now that I think are a bit more under the radar.
We're using digital sampling methods, for example, so therefore we don't have any waste. But, okay, well, maybe you're designing digitally so you're not sampling, but then you're making your garments out of 100% plastic.
Also things like, are we using AI forecasting so we can kind of forecast demand more accurately, but they're not actually talking about what are the volumes that you're, you're pumping out.
I'm seeing a lot of, kind of reliance on the use of technology to say that, oh, we're cutting waste without actually an acknowledgement of what's the core business model. It's overproduction. I'm expecting that we'll see a lot more of that. It's what I'm seeing in my inbox in terms of press releases.
So I think if they're sending it to journalists who are going to scrutinize it, then certainly it'll be going out to the public.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:29:52.850 - 00:30:06.720
That's great. So that's a big red flag if we're using kind of tech to make our process better.
Is something you have to, maybe not red flag, but something you really have to look at to prove that it's effective or what it's supposed to be.
Sophie Benson
00:30:06.720 - 00:30:27.770
Yeah, I think so because it looks at such a small element of the chain. It says we're like we're reducing sampling waste or, or things like that.
But it's like, okay, but what about the waste at the end of the chain, for example?
So if it's not holistic, if it's just focusing on a really, really tiny bit of the supply chain or the production chain, then you know, I would argue what, what kind of impact is it really happening?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:30:27.770 - 00:30:36.810
And on the flip side, is there, you know, what can brands do? Maybe even small efforts that might not get as much attention, might not sound as good as a press release, but really make a big difference.
Sophie Benson
00:30:37.130 - 00:31:30.200
A thing that I always think is, is great and that I will champion is actually just really boring, which is financially supporting decarbonization and climate adaptation within the supply chain. That really doesn't roll off the tongue.
It doesn't sound particularly exciting, but it's things like funding your factories in your supply chain who you don't own but make a lot of money for you to move away from things like coal fired boilers and installing solar panels. It doesn't sound great in Instagram posts. It's not going to be in your lookbook.
Given that the production of garments is where the biggest impact lies and where the biggest carbon emissions lie, that kind of behind the scenes financial support is actually really huge. If I see a brand talking about they're actually making financial commitments decarbonizing the supply chain. I'm like absolutely fantastic.
Talk to me more about it. Which boilers are you using?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:31:35.080 - 00:31:48.250
You have this great book Sustainable Wardrobe with practical advice, projects and hacks for a more eco friendly closet. Do you have any insights for our listeners for assembling a more eco friendly outdoor wardrobe? Outdoor closet.
Sophie Benson
00:31:48.410 - 00:33:23.710
It's definitely the same principles. I think it's just really the basics. So buying secondhand or even using not even.
You don't even have to buy it like what your parents have, what your friends have, what your family have. So using what already exists, 100% repairing.
And I think that's becoming easier as brands are actually offering more repair services, especially online, when you can send things in and you have a sort of direct access to it. Taking care of your garments again is another huge thing.
Really small things like actually washing it according to the washing instructions, which I know is so boring, but so many people actually don't read the label. But that can extend the lifespan by years. You know, those are all things that I think are really important.
And then I think, you know, there are some really cool people out there doing great work. So only recently I learned of an organization called Reaction Collective.
I think they're primarily based in Europe and they're all kind of outdoorsy people. You're like, you know, climbers, hikers, people who have built their, you know, their livelihoods and their personal lives in the outdoors.
And they're just trying to collectively, as a cooperative tackle the glut of outdoor gear together.
So they're doing things like repair, resale, rental, but what they're also doing is taking the money that they generate from that and kind of redistributing it, I guess within nature, you know, and funding really important programs and initiatives. So I think looking out for things like that as well.
So if you're looking for a new coat, can you just have like a poster on your laptop or something that says, oh, firstly, secondhand first is always my rule. Let me, let me see if I can find a collective, let me see if I can find resell.
And then if that really doesn't exist, then let me go down the other avenues.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:33:24.110 - 00:33:48.890
Yeah, and that touches on something I think is really growing and becoming even bigger, Especially with the Gen Z kids out there. Got an 18 year old and 21 year old and they really seem drawn to use gear to thrifting to vintage gear and all that.
And I think it's going to become a bigger part of the market. Is that a trend that even in the fashion world you see expanding?
Sophie Benson
00:33:49.210 - 00:35:19.850
Oh, 100%. I mean in the sort of fashion space there's, there's so many platforms now.
You've got like Vestia Collective at luxury and you've got deep up and vintage kind of more affordable pieces.
And people sort of within my peer group, within my wider network who are lifelong fast fashion fans, are using those kind of platforms because it has that same kind of functionality. You can like click on something and buy it. But it's secondhand.
The secondhand apparel market is on track currently to grow faster than the overall kind of new global apparel market, which I think is really exciting and definitely needs to happen because if you just think about how much stuff is out there, it needs to go somewhere. It's not just the sustainability appeal. I think secondhand ticks the boxes of the things we were talking about earlier. So it ticks like price.
Because where else are you going to get like a great jacket for like half the price, 20% the price. And you wouldn't you. There is the story time that I was talking about before.
Like one of my favorite things about buying secondhand is if I find, you know, like a receipt or I found like theater tickets in the pockets of things and it's that little bit of history. And I guess with outdoor gear you can make up these stories. Like you could imagine like what mountains has this been up?
Or like what rivers has this been down. I kind of love to almost like give the clothes. I find a bit of a history and that makes ones keep them longer as well.
So I think people who are sort of have that narrative mindset, I think that's kind of a really interesting, interesting aspect to, to resell secondhand as well.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:35:19.930 - 00:35:43.900
Oh, I'd love that. And I'd be interested in seeing retailers do that. Right. Are retailers going to curate these pieces? Right.
Or are they going to show like, hey, here's a Cotopaxi jacket from the first year Cotopaxi existed or whatever and that might one people want it more. Yeah. Here's a jacket. When someone brings something into consignment, I would love that if they got to tell the story.
Like, yeah, I took this jacket to Finland and I took it to ski in Japan or something like that.
Sophie Benson
00:35:43.900 - 00:36:22.320
Yeah. Well if anyone uses that campaign then just they can send a check to me. We might see maybe more access to that kind of thing.
We have like digital product passports coming in in EU where you will have access to the story of your garment beyond the first point of sale.
So you, if you maybe you can see if it was repaired in, I don't know, in the French Alps or something and then I buy it in Manchester and then so you could actually create a picture. These sort of, these initiatives that are coming through from legislation could actually help to kind of bring those, those narratives in as well.
So I'd be really interested to see how people interact with those on a personal level.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:36:22.910 - 00:36:50.140
Yeah. And I mean thinking about supply chain stories even too. Right. I've always thought it'd be interesting.
Almost impossible to do story on taking a, a sneaker, a trainer as you call it, and looking back and looking like everyone who touches that or has some part in the economic chain before it gets to you, right? From the person who sells it to you, from the, where the materials are coming from the people who assembled it.
There's such a story behind every thing we wear, everything we buy.
Sophie Benson
00:36:50.140 - 00:37:09.340
Right, that aspect. Exactly. What you said then was pretty much what changed my entire approach to fashion.
When I actually thought about the hands that have touched the garments that I'm wearing, all hands along the way. And I thought about human impact, that was a complete kind of eye opener. I was like, right, something needs to change about the way I'm doing things.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:37:09.660 - 00:37:26.910
When we say like if we stop making things, we taking economic livelihood away from people, right. I mean that's always the most difficult balance I think when it comes to sustainability and caring for the planet.
Like how can we take care of people and at the same time not destroy the place we live?
Sophie Benson
00:37:27.150 - 00:39:12.110
That is the kind of fundamental question. And I think our economies sort of hangs really perilously on the necessity of a cycle of overproduction over consumption.
And we saw, you know, during COVID when sales dropped how Gant workers were really the first ones to suffer. Brands were kind of shoring up their revenues and saying we're not paying you. People going hungry, you know, people weren't receiving their wages.
So if volumes just fall off a cliff, that would have huge social impacts. And as much as sometimes when I just see the piles of stuff, I just want to say we just need to stop making stuff now.
There's not the sensible approach to it. And so, you know, there are lots of discussions about how we have a just transition. So how do we move to things like localized economies?
How do we transition factories that are employing very underpaid workers, making fast fashion to well paid productionized recommerce factories, for example. It's going to have to be a really strategic economic move. We can't just fix it in fashion.
We have to kind of look at it holistically and it will have to be a really protracted kind of long term view.
I know that I mentioned cantamonto market earlier who are of course they're absolutely the front line of all the stuff that is being exported and they have called for a mandated reduction in production volumes.
And yet even they say well, it needs to be phased from X percent reduction and along the years because you know, they are aware of the impact suddenly falling off a cliff would have.
So I think we can do it, but we just have to think really carefully about, about livelihoods and making sure we're transitioning to Kind of circular employment in a. In a really kind of meaningful and thought.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:39:16.890 - 00:39:30.250
You sort of started to mention it, I think, when you talked about thinking about where the apparel came from. But how did you get where you are now?
How did you come onto this path of fashion, of sustainability, of looking at this broad view of apparel and stuff?
Sophie Benson
00:39:30.490 - 00:40:44.330
Yeah, so I actually started my career as a stylist. I specialized in working with kind of small independent brands.
But the thing about small independent brands is that they obviously have small budgets too. So I was kind of making ends meet by working in fast fashion studios and doing e commerce work. So you would have like a rail of 200 garments.
You have to shoot them all in day. And it was really fast. And I just became so aware of the lack of quality, just sheer volume of just rubbish product that was going out there.
And also just the tension in the offices and how unhappy people were working in these environments. And so that kind of made me think really carefully about what do I want my input into the fashion industry and the world to be.
And that's when I started thinking about who's making these garments, how long are they lasting, what's happening to them at the end? And so I kind of made decision that I needed to move away from that. And I'd always kind of written along the way. I'd have blogs.
I used to have a little indie magazine. So I sort of transitioned and decided to draw on those skills.
And yeah, I moved into journalism and just had no experience and no qualifications and just started pitching editors until they would actually, actually listen to me. And in the end it worked, but it took a while.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:40:45.130 - 00:40:58.490
Well, and it seems that you were on the leading edge, though, of this wave. I think in fashion, as fashion is, and I think as more younger people come into fashion, of adopting more sustainability. Right.
More sustainable efforts and making this a part of everything.
Sophie Benson
00:40:59.290 - 00:41:24.180
Yeah, definitely. And I think there was a.
Definitely a huge shift maybe like eight, nine years ago, where fashion started reckoning with itself and started publishing more on sustainability. And because I had sort of been in editor's ears saying, you need to be writing about this. Here's my pitch on this.
I think when they finally realized, okay, we need to cover this, they were like, oh, who was that person who was in my inbox, you know, six months ago, a year ago. So, yeah, I kind of got in there before the wave.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:41:24.180 - 00:41:36.510
I think, luckily right now, I think sustainability is obviously being recognized, but we're not fully there with brands. But is there a tipping point when you think we'll really see major changes everywhere when it comes to sustainability.
Sophie Benson
00:41:36.670 - 00:41:45.150
I think maybe if you'd asked me that a few years ago, I would have believed it more. But I think it's really interesting because this not to be Seneca.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:41:45.150 - 00:41:45.950
You got jaded.
Sophie Benson
00:41:45.950 - 00:42:54.220
It did. I did, yeah. Because there's such an interesting phenomenon that we have.
It's really interesting that we have a really politically engaged, you know, younger generation who at the same time are the biggest consumers we've ever seen and who hold two things in their mind. So they're very, very acutely aware of the impact. And at the same time they will shop at Sheehan because they deserve the low prices.
And it's really hard to kind of fight with that. And, you know, at the same time, we've seen like a move towards the right on the political spectrum.
So I think at the minute I'm finding it hard to see that. I think we would. I think we need to see more of a political shift to force brands to change.
Because at the minute, if you are big capitalist brand and you're flourishing and you're making profits and you kind of fit into that mindset, then is there really an incentive to change? So I'm not as confident in that as I was a few years ago. I think we need to see broader change, not just in the fashion industry. It has to.
Has to come from elsewhere in the ether as well, I think, to sort of force the hand.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:42:54.300 - 00:43:07.660
I mean, this is where the outdoors kind of comes in though, Right.
Because there are brands in the outdoors who are simply going down a sustainable path because they want to, because it's the right thing to do, because it's what they believe in. Right. So there's some hope there that other brands might.
Sophie Benson
00:43:07.660 - 00:43:11.260
Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't. I. Yeah. I don't be too disheartening to everyone.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:11.260 - 00:43:11.900
Oh, no, no.
Sophie Benson
00:43:11.980 - 00:43:46.340
100%.
You know, despite the kind of current climate and the massive incentives to do the wrong thing, I find it really inspiring that there are still people who. Yes. Who just do it because it actually is the thing that you should do.
You know, servitude to the next generation, servitude to, you know, the environment, etc. And acting as a stewards rather than kind of extractors and exploiters.
So, yes, I'm really happy that those, you know, those kind of brands do exist and really stick to their values on days and I'm reporting on the absolute ugliest side of the industry. I really, really cling to their existence.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:48.510 - 00:44:02.350
So on a more Positive note. Moving forward, how do you see both the fashion and outdoor industries evolving?
Like, what are we going to see in the next couple years, the next five years, as far as you can tell, or as far as you hope?
Sophie Benson
00:44:02.510 - 00:45:29.450
There's definitely a lot more investment in the circular economy. You have fast fashion brands who are launching repair, which I didn't think I would see. So that's huge like that.
Actually, the giving consumers the kind of agency and ability to actually hang on to their stuff for longer is massive.
So I think we're going to see more of that and we're definitely seeing slowly and incrementally, but we are seeing the life cycle of clothes increasing, which is fantastic. So I think that's great. And, you know, you have things like emotional durability actually being regulated, which is a difficult thing to do.
But, you know, if those kind of considerations are built in at the design stage, then that's fantastic. I think and hope that we're still going to see discussions about brands kind of really coming to terms with the fact that volume is the issue.
You know, I mentioned the Cotopaxi thing earlier, but they're not the only ones who are kind of having this discussion and being open about how much they actually produce. So I really want to see more transparency around that, and I think we will.
And then also, you know, I think textiles, textile recycling kind of had a bit of a falter a couple of years ago, but it seems to really be gaining steam again. So I think we'll see a lot of investment in that space, which is obviously for things like polyester, that's really important.
So I really want to see outdoor brands investing in that.
I'm seeing a lot of kind of activewear and fashion, but yeah, I'd be interested to see outdoor brands with high tech materials investing in that and kind of taking accountability for the end of life when things are too worn out to be repaired.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:45:33.850 - 00:46:02.970
Sophie, I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this conversation.
It's really great to talk to someone who, with such broad and nuanced knowledge, when it comes to sustainability, when it comes to apparel, when it comes to markets, you're just amazing. So it's been great to talk to you.
I want to know if you could let listeners know how they can learn more about your work, how they can read your work, and also how they could contact you if they want to learn more about sustainability and anything you have knowledge on.
Sophie Benson
00:46:03.050 - 00:46:33.830
It's been such a pleasure, as you can tell. I just love. I can talk about this stuff all day. So I'm the same name on everything. So Sophie Benson.com I'm Sophie Benson.
Instagram, and that's pretty much all I'm posting on at the moment. Sustainable Wardrobe is my book and that's available online and at various different retailers of your choice.
Feel free to contact me, you know, Instagram, LinkedIn, my email's on my website. I'm always really open to conversations and to hear from people who are doing things differently and trying to change the rules.
So yeah, yeah, Sophie, Google me. Sophie Benson. I'm sure I'll come up.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:46:35.190 - 00:46:43.490
Fantastic. Well, I have one final question for you. The final question we ask everyone on the show and it is simply, what gives you hope?
Sophie Benson
00:46:43.810 - 00:47:26.170
That's a really good question for me.
What gives me hope is the people who I have met who are on the front lines of the climate crisis, who are continuing despite everything that's thrown at them. I think it's really, really easy to despair. And I think it's a privilege to do that when you're not faced daily with the consequences of our actions.
So if a community who is dealing with drought, with their plants not growing in the way they used to, with their culture changing because they don't have access to the same resources they did, if they can continue to be resilient in the face of that, then so can I. And I find that really hopeful that there is still that determination despite everything.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:47:26.650 - 00:47:32.580
What a fantastic answer. What a fantastic person you are. So glad to have had you on as a guest. Take care.
Sophie Benson
00:47:32.980 - 00:47:34.020
Thank you so much.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:47:37.540 - 00:48:23.240
Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rockfight llc.
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockvitemail.com learn more about Sophie Benson and her work and order her book Sustainable Practical Advice and Projects for Eco Friendly Fashion Ophibenson. Follow her on LinkedIn and Instagram @ Sophie Benson. Our producers today were David Karsad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Genser.
I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some. Thanks for listening. It.
