PFAS Isn’t Over: What Comes Next for Outdoor Brands?
- colin7931
- 12 minutes ago
- 27 min read
Today on The Rock Fight, Colin and Eoin Comerford sit down at the Grassroots Outdoor Alliance Connect show with Alex Lauver, the former Director of Materials & Sustainability at Outdoor Research, now leading Douglas Strategies LLC, a consultancy focused on impact reduction and supply-chain transparency.
They unpack the state of PFAS (“forever chemicals”). Once the outdoor industry’s biggest story, now quietly complicated by regulation, cost, and unintended consequences.
They dig into:
PFAS bans and the fallout — where the legislation stands and which states are next.
Who benefits most from PFAS removal (hint: supply chain workers).
Legal gray zones — what brands can (and can’t) claim as “PFAS free.”
What’s next — new concerns around solvents, BPA, phthalates, and antimicrobials.
The rise of natural fibers and the myth of “cotton kills.”
The F/M/K round: “PFAS Free,” “Non-PFAS,” and “No Added PFAS.”
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Episode Transcript:
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Colin True
00:01:27.720 - 00:06:20.320
Welcome to the Rock Bite where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True and today we're coming to you with our first conversation recorded at GEOA Connect in Kansas City. But first, some programming reminders. Be sure to follow the Rock Flight on whatever podcast app you are listening to us on right now.
Then also head over to the Gear Abbey Feed Rock Fight Sister podcast here on the Rock Flight Podcast Network and subscribe to that show as well.
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And let's get into it because this past week I was joined by my fellow Rock fighters Owen Comerford and producer Dave as the Rock Fight set up shop at what is perhaps the most consequential outdoor trade show we have going on right now, the Grassroots Outdoor Alliance Connect Show. Longtime rock fighters may recall some episodes that came out of our attendance at the Reno show this past summer.
The Reno edition of Goa Connect and The good folks at the GOA were kind enough to welcome us back for the fall event in Kansas City. And bonus for us is that the Chiefs lost on the same day we arrived.
So not only did we get to go to the show, we got to revel, revel in the sadness of all the Chief fans in person. You see, folks, even in these trying times, every so often a little ray of sunshine comes down from above to make it all worth it. Eat shit, my homes.
Anyway, just like last time, we were able to record a bunch of great stuff for you. Next Monday you're going to hear producer Dave Owen and I talking about our favorite things that we saw at goa's Discovery Marketplace.
And we also captured interviews with folks like Amy Beck from Oboz, Nathan Dopp from Phoenix outdoor, and Tony Post from Topo Athletic. And we also spoke to today's guest, Alex Laver.
Alex was the head of materials and sustainability for a long time at Outdoor Research and he recently launched his own consulting firm that focuses on helping organizations reduce impact and improve supply chain transparency. Alex was pretty vocal as the outdoor industry started grappling with the removal of PFAS from our products.
And I wanted to bring him on the show because while in 2024 PFAS was probably the biggest industry story, it's a story that's kind of gone quiet in 2025. So did we resolve the problem? And Alex sat down with us at GOA Connect to talk about where things are with PFAS right now.
So welcome back to the Rock Fight where today it's pfas. It's all good, right? With Alex Laver. And that's coming up right after a few words from our sponsors.
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All right, first interview. Goa Connect Kansas City, November 2025. I'm here with Owen Comerford and we're joined right now by Alex Laver. Am I saying that right?
I don't ever said your name out loud to you. I just assumed it was pronounced that way. Laver.
Alex Lauver
00:07:49.540 - 00:07:49.900
Yeah.
Colin True
00:07:49.900 - 00:07:50.380
Okay, great.
Alex Lauver
00:07:50.380 - 00:07:52.620
You've Called me lots of things, but you've never used my last name.
Colin True
00:07:52.620 - 00:07:53.660
Do you want to say lover?
Alex Lauver
00:07:54.140 - 00:07:57.370
I get lower a lot. People are afraid of the V. I guess not.
Colin True
00:07:57.530 - 00:08:08.210
So Alex is the former Director of Materials and Sustainability at Outdoor Research. He's now out on his own, operating as a unique voice when it comes to outdoor textile innovation and sustainability. What is that exactly?
What are you doing exactly?
Alex Lauver
00:08:08.210 - 00:08:34.630
Yeah, I kickstarted Douglas Strategies LLC in April. We're a strategic consulting company that helps organizations of all sizes with strategic approaches to reducing impact.
And my background in supply chain materials, innovation, sustainability kind of all revolves in that world. And it's interesting to be which side of the the industry.
Like we're here talking to retailers and working with retailers and my experience in the last decade has been more on the brand side. Yeah, in that sense. So it's kind of an interesting environment.
Colin True
00:08:35.590 - 00:09:23.160
So we wanted to have you on and we've been trying to do this for a while and I've had the most like hellacious schedule anytime. It's been related specifically to when you and I were supposed to speak.
But we wanted to check in on PFAS because 2024, 2024 was the year of forever chemicals. Right. That was the probably number one topic of the year.
The issue's been around for a long time, but it kind of came to a head last year as California made moves to ban forever chemicals, including on textiles. We had Meg Carney's multi part podcast on the topic.
We had outdoor brands all seeking accolades for removing them from their products, even though they were a little late. Maybe you could say so.
But then in 2025 now it seems we've kind of moved on to other topics, understandably so, given what's going on with tariffs and whatever. But just, you know, starting top level, what's going on? Have we solved the problem? Is it all over?
Alex Lauver
00:09:23.800 - 00:10:27.360
I mean, they are called fore chemicals. So like, you know, they're not going to go anywhere. Colin? No, there's a lot of things happening.
I mean, we're entering into a period where the world's fourth largest economy has banned these chemicals.
So the big shock and the big headline is kind of passed and you're either compliant or you're not, or you're not talking about it, you know, to some extent, let's be like totally real and honest. But like you said, the political cycle changes on an hourly basis. So it kind of lost its luster. But there's a lot of things that are still happening.
The original, the original legislation was California AB 18, 17. But there are other states that have now moved on as well. So originally it was if it's California, then it's like the whole world.
But it's not just California. It's also in Maine and Colorado this year in 2026, Rhode island in 27, Connecticut and Vermont in 28.
So I mean, there is a series of states that are still coming. There's a whole bunch of things that are happening. You mentioned tariffs.
One of the other really interesting issues is where DWR is used to get advantageous duty rates on importing products. Owens nodding. I think you've seen this. I think you guys have mentioned it and talked about it.
Eoin Comerford
00:10:28.210 - 00:10:45.570
Yeah, actually. I mean, Columbia in their investor call recently talked about how they have a whole team that this is what they do.
They actually work on optimizing how a product gets categorized. Like they'll add a feature that maybe actually doesn't help the product, but they'll add it so that it gets categorized as a lower tariff category.
Alex Lauver
00:10:45.570 - 00:11:53.470
Yeah, and rainwear or weatherproof products usually have a reduction the other one that often. I know my wife has noticed. I'm sure the ladies in your life may have this weird zip pocket kind of on the torso of their garments.
I think it's called like a nursemaid's pocket pocket or something. And it changes the duty rate for a lot of these products.
So if we're removing DWR for PFAS reasons out of products that don't need it for a performance oriented need, there could be dollars and cents reasons. So that, I mean, that is something that will continue to go on long term. The other one that I think closer to my heart is California.
I hate saying this out loud, but we're on a podcast where you're allowed to like say things that are, you know, this is the podcast. This is the podcast to be. To be. What's the right word I'm looking for?
But California may have made it illegal to mechanically recycle textiles because if you're mechanically shredding up and then re spinning fibers and that fiber or fabric had PFAS in it, is it previously used or is it new in its second life and second generation? You're not removing those chemicals, you're not washing out any of those contaminants. But it's a new garment, but it's made of old material.
So there's a lot of dialogue happening right now in terms of that.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:53.550 - 00:11:55.790
So how does that live with SP707?
Alex Lauver
00:11:56.550 - 00:12:04.630
Yeah, just like I fed you that question. Remind me to give you a $5 bill later. The answer is we don't know yet because they haven't actually fully come through with that.
Eoin Comerford
00:12:04.630 - 00:12:37.650
But to those of the listeners that aren't aware, 707 was a responsible textile recovery act, where basically California was saying that as a manufacturer or as a seller of apparel or things with textiles, you are responsible for their life post use.
And then you have to contribute to something called a pro, where an entity that will actually take on the responsibility of reuse, upcycling, what have you post that initial first life of the product.
Alex Lauver
00:12:37.650 - 00:13:20.010
Yeah. And without getting overly dorky, the pro also has an eco modulation clause. It's also in the.
We're talking about epr, extended producer responsibility. That's a real thing in packaging right now. It's coming for textiles, which is something that we're talking about with my clients.
So whether or not your garment has pfas may change your eco modulation, which is the fee that you'll pay that pro in the future. Without getting overly dorky, it's also probably worth noting that that bill is currently stuck. It was, I don't remember the legal term.
You're a California guy where it like they moved into the second year and then it's highly likely to die on the floor versus actually be like canceled or whatever. There's a term. And my lawyer buddy is cringing because I can't remember the name at the moment from the oia. But.
Colin True
00:13:20.170 - 00:13:44.730
Well, my next question was, you know what, what are some examples of good news on the topic? But it sounds like it's just complicated across the board. Right.
All these other states that are kind of putting it on the table, they're going to, you know, it's going to be, continue to be brought up like PFAs. We can't, we have to, we have to create solutions to not having it in the, in the, in the world.
But also all of these things, it's, you know, the banning of it is going to continue to create other problems in addition to, you know, the original problem itself.
Alex Lauver
00:13:44.810 - 00:14:18.080
Yeah. And obviously, big tip for you, if you've never been on a podcast before, they usually send you some of the questions ahead of time.
So I was looking at this, trying to come up with things to say. And there are a couple of good things.
I mean, I would be, I'd be a terrible consultant if I didn't say out loud that this is good for the planet and it's good for the supply chain workers. Right. Like the, from an apparel standpoint, the Citizens of California are not that much safer, sort of broadly speaking, by removing PFAs.
But really, and I've been pretty public about this, the people who will benefit literally today and tomorrow are the supply chain workers that are exposed to, to this. So that is a good thing.
Colin True
00:14:19.040 - 00:14:22.160
Kind of went under covered in a lot of ways if you think about it.
Alex Lauver
00:14:22.160 - 00:15:02.440
And I was pretty loud about it because I think that's something that's worth mentioning when we talk about our values as an industry. It's the people who make our product as much as the people who use our products.
A couple of other really good Things though, like Governor Newsom actually vetoed SB682 recently, which was a sort of follow on bill in other categories. It's pretty politically complicated. But I think what was interesting is that in the moment of PFAS being an easy yes button, he said no.
And it's complicated. But his main quote from his response was he wants to consider the consequences that may result from a dramatic shift of products on our shelves.
And it was related to lower income families and cookware, which actually cookware is one of the areas where you.
Colin True
00:15:02.520 - 00:15:04.280
Right where you're ingesting, you have a.
Alex Lauver
00:15:04.280 - 00:16:11.270
Little bit of a risk, let's say.
So there are people who are willing to say this legislation is not correct and unfortunately we don't want to be in the way of progress, but we need to get it right. And I thought that was relatively good news in terms of signaling get things right.
We are seeing some states that are now asking for public comment regarding some of the changes, which again is an opportunity for us to sort of weave and say, well, and the whole 50 to 100 ppm is contamination. Like there's no real scientific basis for that. They just kind of picked a number. So there is an opportunity for some course correction, I think.
And then the last one here is that one of the really interesting things, there's a good article on Scientific America, if you're a reader and science Y, that there's research happening that they have found some microbes that will actually break down PFAS naturally in the environment. So we don't want an IM legend moment of releasing, you know, genetically modified organisms into the world.
But if there are ways for us to address this and the broader landscape of PFAS has more to do with groundwater, which is where it is really toxic to citizens of the United States and the world around, then that is an opportunity for us to be able to mitigate the forever chemical piece of the pie. And I think that's actually really interesting.
Colin True
00:16:11.990 - 00:16:13.390
From an industry perspective.
Chris DeMakes
00:16:13.390 - 00:16:13.670
Right.
Colin True
00:16:13.670 - 00:16:41.110
And a few months ago you wrote a multi part story on LinkedIn about your journey to remove PFAS from outdoor research as apparel line. I'll link it in the show notes people should check it out.
Still exists out there, you know, I mean, so clearly PFAS has lost some momentum in the public eye, but it sounds like things are still happening, you know, and not to spoil what you wrote for anyone, but what, you know, what's your big picture takeaway for the industry and like, you know, what is actually happening?
Do you feel like in the industry today, given kind of in the seat you sit in now and you can be a little more open about it, you're not working for like one brand.
Eoin Comerford
00:16:41.110 - 00:16:41.430
Right.
Colin True
00:16:41.430 - 00:17:05.940
So like how do you think the industry's response is going?
It's interesting you bring up the, the factory workers risk when you hear a lot of brands like, oh, we really wanted to take our time with this and figure out what our solution was going to be. And it's like, yeah, okay, well in the 10 years how many people were exposed to the bullshit you were putting on there if you knew about it?
Like that's kind of, that's not all right. That really has gone a lot. Pretty unaddressed in a lot of ways. So as the industry sits today on this topic, like how do you feel like we're doing?
Alex Lauver
00:17:05.940 - 00:18:10.029
Yeah. And obviously pfast is not the only thing that's in our products. That is, that is not great for people.
So I think there's kind of three pieces to this. The first one is it's not over for the end users. Right. As we were getting ready to turn it on, we were having a quick conversation.
We'll rehash that to basically say multiple retailers have approached me at this show and said, hey, we've got consumers coming in who are looking to buy a new high end piece of rainwear. And they're like, how do we communicate to the consumer that it's different?
Like what has changed and how do we tell them to expect it to not behave the way that it used to? We've lost that moment in the political changes and the news cycle shifts of like we're not really talking about that.
And this is the venue at Grassroots Outdoor Connect show where we should be educating and talking about it and we're not. So the consumer is going to continue to see a change and I don't think that anyone is prepared for that the way we should have been.
We've had A year to deal with it, you know, the second one is get ready. This is the beginning of regulation in apparel.
If you're in climbing hard goods, if you're in the bike industry, if you're in cookware and edible type products, you're used to some of those rules. We've never. It's been the Wild west and technical.
Colin True
00:18:10.029 - 00:18:13.350
Apparel, you could argue, really overdue. Yeah, sure, right.
Alex Lauver
00:18:13.350 - 00:18:15.590
I mean, it's like safety and ppe, so.
Colin True
00:18:15.590 - 00:18:17.350
And sustainability, all of these things.
Alex Lauver
00:18:17.430 - 00:18:55.720
Totally.
So I think that is the really big pivot point that we haven't learned a lesson from with pfas and how to deal with the things that are coming next, you know?
And then the third one is, I think it's really interesting to walk around and see how people are saying C0DWR on their boots here and they're saying the words PFAS free. From a legal perspective, it's not PFAS free. You're not PFAS free. It's in your blood.
So I think that we're also not learning the lessons in terms of the unfortunate levels of United States legal code of you can't really say anything free. I mean, the green guides at a high level would suggest you can't do that in sustainability at a minimum.
And here we are talking about it from a legal basis.
Eoin Comerford
00:18:56.290 - 00:19:04.690
Right. I mean, what I'm seeing is some brands say that not sort of intentionally added is basically. I don't know the legal words, but.
Alex Lauver
00:19:04.690 - 00:19:05.730
That is the legal way to say it.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:05.730 - 00:19:46.990
Yeah. We haven't intentionally added it, but yeah, it's probably here, right? Totally. It's everywhere. Yeah.
So looking back on the end of 24, let's face it, it was a bit of a shit show. Right. I feel like having been in the industry, I mean, this was a train we saw coming from miles down the track. Right.
Did something change in 24, especially on the tent side of things, where they felt, oh, we don't have to worry about it, because Q4 of 2024, if you were trying to sell a tent, it was a disaster. So I don't know if you can talk to that at all as to why that went totally sideways.
Alex Lauver
00:19:46.990 - 00:21:09.650
One of the reasons I love listening to you guys, Owen, is you ask really intelligent and well thought out questions and I hadn't anticipated that one. So I don't have a good answer for you on the spot, candidly, Which I know you guys are all cheering silently if you can't see them right now.
Dave, especially, you're handling this very well, it's interesting where it did come from. I mean, to your point, there's, there's been an underswell of, of removing fluorine from DWR for at least 10 years.
We've known that PFAS has been toxic forever.
There's been lots of activists and other groups who were trying to push legislation and talk about this in the outdoor industry, like it or not, is a performance oriented industry. And anything that is against performance or degrades the performance of our products, including flammability, intense.
You know, there's a lot of reasons why that was in there. Safety and liability should be noted here. And it's been difficult.
But I think one of the reasons it was so slow and why when it did happen, it was such a shock to us is that until there was a pressure that says thou shall remove, optimizing and making the best versions of it was not possible. Like my first experience at a high level with non fluorinated DWR was a disaster.
And it was chalking, which is when they overload the chemistry and you can run your fingernails down, it kind of looks like waxed canvas almost.
If you see that in some garments, that's just an overloading of the DWR chemistry to try to boost that initial performance for the brand's, you know, performance specs.
Colin True
00:21:09.810 - 00:21:19.770
When Matt Dwyer from Patagonia was on that was interesting, him saying like, you know, one reason they, they did take a long time, you know, despite some of our, was like when we tried to take it out, like our products didn't work.
Eoin Comerford
00:21:19.770 - 00:21:20.130
Yeah.
Colin True
00:21:20.130 - 00:21:29.530
Like it would been so ingrained in the manufacturing of these things that we had to really start from scratch on a lot of products. That's not as, that's a time consuming as, you know, as a materials guy, that takes a while.
Alex Lauver
00:21:29.530 - 00:22:22.440
Yeah. And you said it earlier, I get to be a little more open now that I don't represent a brand specifically.
I think Patagonia, now that I know some of the people on that team are doing. I know Matt personally and he and I've traded a couple of notes on his appearance on your podcast and mine on a couple of others on the same front.
They, they do their homework. Patagonia is certainly very, very, very sciencey. Even though they have this sort of, you know, loose appearance at times, they do a great job.
Keen is another brand that I'd point out who has very much been managing PFAs the right way and has a very well done testing regime. So they know it's not in their product. They don't just have like a test report they can wave around. So it's.
Yeah, it's been interesting for sure in some, in some of those struggles. But our, our first launch at a brand I was at with non fluorinated DWR was a mess.
And I think that was part of it is like, why don't we want to deal with this right now? I don't have to deal with it. And then all on a sudden, however it came to be, I wish I had more history there. It was like, we gotta do something now.
Colin True
00:22:22.600 - 00:22:28.280
Are there any skeletons lurking in the closet and is there a next PFAS that's out there that we need to be aware of?
Alex Lauver
00:22:28.280 - 00:23:28.290
Absolutely. There's all kinds of stuff out there right now. Like I'm trying to look through my notes again.
Not everybody can remember anything off the top of the head. There are a lot of efforts in solvents, which is the chemistry that you put into liquid polyurethane and then you run it through a heat oven.
It creates pores. It's how you make waterproof breathables. Some of those are really, really, really, really nasty. Dmf, mek.
I've been exposed to those and toluene in my career.
And like that's kind of the deal where you walk into this weird fully enclosed room and the workers are wearing some form of like PPE and kind of smells gluey and you're like, I feel funny. It's like I'm kind of dizzy. And they're like, yeah, we're gonna get out of here real fast. Just wanted to show this to you.
I mean the whole room is just soaked full of solvents. Right? Seriously, you want to talk about horrors of the supply chain? 20 years ago I walked into one of those rooms.
A lot of them now have, have better VOC control and they have better respiration and they have capture systems and abatement systems, but especially the good ones. So solvents is a big one. BPA is back. What did you know about that?
Colin True
00:23:28.290 - 00:23:30.170
No, I thought we there 10 years.
Alex Lauver
00:23:30.170 - 00:24:02.970
Ago, 15 years ago in recycled polyester and some spandex derivatives. It's a catalyst. It's a non intentionally added catalyst that appears in some of the formulation of those textiles.
We all know that BPA especially we talk about women reproductive age is toxic. They're finding it in like sports bras, high compression next to skin garments.
And I don't have the facts, somebody got sued, it's been a whole thing but like you can't really test whether or not it's in there, but yet people are finding it somehow or they have reason to believe and it's creating like lawsuits.
Colin True
00:24:03.290 - 00:24:07.570
I don't know if Clean Canteen has a booth here, but a chill just went through there like whatever, just by the measure.
Alex Lauver
00:24:07.570 - 00:24:07.970
BPA.
Colin True
00:24:07.970 - 00:24:10.130
Oh God, it's 2010 all over again.
Alex Lauver
00:24:10.130 - 00:24:42.150
It's kind of messy and you can't really remove it the way you could. I'm air quoting if you can't see from the water bottle and food industry. So like BPA is going to come back.
Another one that is really hard to spell so I won't even attempt is phthalates. There's a P in there if you Google it. There's a P in phthalates. That is messy. In plastics, which is everywhere right now.
Our world is half plastic and then the other one that's really interesting that there has been some outspoken people and I'm not going to name names necessarily, but the OIA had somebody on I think this week to talk about it is antimicrobials.
Colin True
00:24:42.150 - 00:24:48.070
I saw an article about this recently. Yeah, the inherent dangers in the silver antimicrobials, I believe.
Alex Lauver
00:24:48.150 - 00:24:49.230
Silver. Silver salts.
Colin True
00:24:49.230 - 00:24:52.950
If people don't work either, by the way. So just to let you know, you can defeat them pretty easily.
Alex Lauver
00:24:53.270 - 00:25:13.690
Just get really sweaty and it doesn't really do it. So there's a lot happening in that space as well, like drug resistant bacteria that we're seeing MRSA and some of the other crazy things.
I mean that's coming from the overuse of antibiotics and some microbes on your body are a good thing, just like in your gut. So antimicrobials might actually be one of the first things to go away pretty soon in apparel.
Colin True
00:25:14.090 - 00:25:28.150
So for our friend Gear Abby Shantay Salibair, are you ready to admit that cotton Kills is actually a big front? It's all propaganda by the big plastic apparel industry and that the resurgence of natural fibers is on the way.
Alex Lauver
00:25:28.390 - 00:25:29.750
I feel targeted right now.
Colin True
00:25:30.470 - 00:25:31.430
Shantae should feel.
Alex Lauver
00:25:31.510 - 00:26:00.650
I mean, I think and it was interesting. My partner for the presentation I did here at goa, Rick Crawford, big shout out.
We were just having a conversation as we were wandering around the last 10 minutes before this, talking about cotton versus poly and supply chain in carbon in impact. Like is natural fiber or synthetic fiber? Like there's a good discussion in here. We may actually do an episode on his podcast about that.
So it could be a cool way for us to link up maybe in collab on that. That's a cool dialogue that I don't think People are really having right now.
Colin True
00:26:00.650 - 00:26:17.490
I mean I definitely just a bit about the cotton kill thing, but it's also, it's a look that was at the time it was a education point of like, please don't go in the mountains wearing your cotton T shirt and your jeans. Right? It's like, well, now there's a little more nuance, like how you're.
A lot of different ways you can go outside depending on what you're doing and how you're doing it. And maybe that's where the shift in the dialogue needs to happen.
Alex Lauver
00:26:17.570 - 00:26:46.510
We have a lot of people first time, second time outdoor type users in the last handful of years with COVID and there was an educational need that resurfaced in those moments to be like, hey, if you're just going for a little day h, you're with your family, there's people everywhere. Wear whatever you're comfortable in.
But if you've got some audacious goal to like stretch above your skill level and do something new and challenging, first of all, great. Good for you. But do it safely.
And you may not want to go in your blue jeans and your cotton T shirt if you're trying to summit a 14er in June in Colorado. Might not be a great idea.
Colin True
00:26:46.510 - 00:27:12.140
Last real question on the ingredient brand front.
Obviously ingredient brand and brand in ingredient brands are important to, you know, the history of producer Dave and myself being from Polar Tech and whatnot. And you know, the, you know, a lot of times the innovation, the industry being led there.
I can say we definitely when I was my time at Polartech, PFAS was on the radar and they were creating solutions and there was a fair amount of meh when kind of approached approaching brands in the 2000 teens. Who do you think is leading right now in the greedy brand?
Alex Lauver
00:27:12.220 - 00:27:46.450
It's such a great question.
This was another one that I was kind of trying to figure out how I wanted to answer, who I wanted to make angry and who I wanted to make sure I gave a shout out to. Polartech deserves a nice shout out.
The Milliken group went PFAS free very quickly and they made a very public stance even across the defense and military side of their business, which was gutsy. So kudos to them for making the right choice in a time where it was challenging.
I'd be remiss, probably not mentioning one of my big clients, Nikwax right now who is doing a great job. And come on, if your jacket's not working as well, the first thing you can do is wash and Dry it and reproof it like waving from the.
Colin True
00:27:46.450 - 00:27:48.650
Background going we never used it totally.
Alex Lauver
00:27:48.650 - 00:28:11.260
Like we were right the whole time it turns out. But there's other groups out there. I mean Nik Wax is who I'm working with. I think they're the best.
But there are other people that have cleaning and retreating products. So they. They're a huge. Seeing a huge boost right now in the. The new industrial DWR is a really cool story from an innovation standpoint.
I know you and I talked about it recently as well being good thing to follow up on. I think there's a couple that are not and I don't necessarily want to throw rocks.
Colin True
00:28:11.580 - 00:28:12.140
Come on.
Alex Lauver
00:28:12.140 - 00:28:13.460
I still think you can say it.
Colin True
00:28:13.460 - 00:28:15.580
I'll bleep it out and you'll bleep it in post.
Alex Lauver
00:28:15.580 - 00:29:05.340
I think that W.L. gore is still struggling with this is probably is not a shock to everybody.
I mean one of my favorite arguments in the PFAST era was is EPTFE A a PFAS and a lot of like abbreviations. There is expanded polytetraethylene, a polyfluoro alkyl substance. And the answer is it doesn't really matter.
So essentially it was Gore Texas is what I'm saying. It doesn't matter because their membrane failed the test methods that were done in SB in SP the. Thank you. Because they have fluorine in it.
The F is fluorine. So the answer is it didn't matter whether Gore Tex was a pfas. It doesn't pass the screening method.
But yet there's a lot of people walking around the show floor with an EPTFE heart stent put in that saved their life is keeping them alive and being with their families. So it's complicated.
Colin True
00:29:05.660 - 00:29:12.620
You can't just villainize and vilify everybody. Like it's just like there's absolutely. This is a conversation, not a bullet point.
Alex Lauver
00:29:12.620 - 00:29:54.410
Their business was really impacted by it.
I think there's a lot of other membrane folks out there who are experimenting with new ways to make waterproof breathables without solvents, without some of the same chemistry levels. There's a.
There's a new one on the scene that I think uses minerals that get dissolved to create porosity through kind of a natural sort of erosion maind. Yeah, there's a lot of castor bean stuff that's really More on the Nylon 11 side there's a little bit of membranes.
Nylon 11 doesn't inherently have the same absorption of breathability rates. So you don't get some of the MVTR ratings that consumers like, you know, big numbers or better performance. So I think that's a trickier one.
So there's. There's some interesting innovation happening as a result of this.
Colin True
00:29:55.130 - 00:29:57.930
All right, well, let's wrap things up with a quick F. Mary kill.
Alex Lauver
00:29:57.930 - 00:29:58.290
Oh, boy.
Colin True
00:29:58.920 - 00:30:06.880
You got PFAS free. Non pfas. No added pfas. This is a Producer Dave special right here.
Alex Lauver
00:30:06.880 - 00:30:17.160
That was a good one. He did it on the fly. I watched him typing furiously, and I was like, this is gonna be good. I mean, you gotta marry the non. Intentionally added.
That is the right way to say it right now from a legal perspective.
Colin True
00:30:18.760 - 00:30:20.760
Brands take note, man.
Alex Lauver
00:30:20.760 - 00:30:25.800
I would have to kill PFAS free because that's the one that gets a lot of people in trouble. So what was the third option?
Colin True
00:30:26.200 - 00:30:27.240
Non PFAs.
Alex Lauver
00:30:27.240 - 00:30:36.620
Non PFAs. I'm gonna switch around. Actually, non PFAS seems even more dangerous to me because it doesn't actually give you a stance either way, given the.
Colin True
00:30:36.620 - 00:30:42.340
Choice between how you want to label your product PFAS free or non PFAs. PFAs free. Probably a little better, right? Non PFAs.
Alex Lauver
00:30:42.340 - 00:30:43.100
Yeah, it's kind of like.
Colin True
00:30:43.100 - 00:30:44.740
Hey, it's. It's just non pfas.
Alex Lauver
00:30:45.140 - 00:30:46.820
It's kind of like, yeah, don't worry about it, huh?
Colin True
00:30:47.860 - 00:30:54.340
So, Alex, thanks for coming on, man. I really appreciate having you here. And. Yeah, let's. Let's keep. Let's bring you back. Let's stay in touch.
Alex Lauver
00:30:54.420 - 00:30:56.410
Hey, thanks for having me. It's been a lot of fun, guys.
Colin True
00:30:57.360 - 00:31:25.140
All right, that's the show for today. The Rock Flight is a production of Rock Flight llc. Today's episode was produced by me, producer Dave Owen. We all kind of produced this one.
Art direction provided by Sarah Genser for producer Dave For Owen Comerford, I'm Colin Truth. Thanks for listening. And here to take us out is Chris Demaicz. He's here to sing the Rock Fight Fight song.
And we'll see you next time, which will be on Monday. Make sure you come back to the Rock Fight. Listen to the show. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:31:25.140 - 00:32:20.440
Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Welcome to the Rock Fight.
Where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting, like pop culture, music, the latest movie review ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock Fight. Rock Flight. Rock Flight.
Welcome to the rock flight Rock flight, rock flight welcome to the rock flight, rock flight, rock fight, rock flight, rock flight, rock flight welcome to the rock flight, rock fight, rap.
