Public Lands Move To The Front Of The Pack
- colin7931
- May 9
- 30 min read
Today Colin is joined Adam Cramer the CEO of the Outdoor Alliance to talk about what is happening with our public lands. And there is a lot happening.
Over the last few weeks, we’ve seen or heard the following:
A leaked document from the Department of the Interior.
Last week the administration released their budget guidelines for 2026 which included upheavals for the Park Service including things like transferring National Parks sites over to state control as well as a number of cuts to things like NPS Historic Preservation Fund.
The Forest Service and the BLM have been directed to come up with parcels ready for "disposal" that are near big population centers.
Agencies are currently sorting out their “RIFs” which means Reduction In Force, where they are losing about 30% of their staff. This on top of the cuts that already happened a couple of months ago.
And just two days ago, literally in the middle of the night, an amendment was voted on to sell off somewhere between 11,000 and 500,000 acres of public lands in Utah and Nevada.
So what is an outdoor enthusiast to do? We get into it on today's episode.
And stay tuned to The Rock Fight in the coming days and weeks for actionable updates from the Outdoor Alliance so that you can help protect our public lands!
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Episode Transcript:
Colin True
00:00:00.160 - 00:01:55.090
Hey everyone, before we keep going here, I need to tell you about our teammates at Darby Communications.
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Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True and today Adam Kramer from the Outdoor alliance joins me to talk about public lands.
But before we get to that, if you missed all of our shows this week, go back to hear Monday's episode and learn about the impossible tariff decision facing brands. And listen to Wednesday's episode to hear Shantae Salibar and I discuss some recent stories to come out of the outdoor community.
And hey, are you heading to Switch back this June? If so, be sure to put the Rock Fight live on your agenda for Tuesday, June 17th at 5 o' clock in the trailheads Theater. I'm going to be there.
Producer Dave is going to be there. Owen's going to be there. Shantae's going to be there. It's if Switchback is going to be the event of the summer, this will be the event at the event.
Don't miss it. And hey, stick around. We'll be right back. Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Hey everyone, let's dial things back.
It's time for a new segment we're calling Catalog Lullaby and today we're featuring catalog copy for the Yarn packs Mountain Magic 50 Pro backpack. The AR Mountain Magic 50 Pro.
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Colin True
00:02:34.160 - 00:04:49.410
Sweet dreams. Plan to visit ARN at Switchback or Geoa Connect this June.
If you can't make it there and you're not too sleepy, head to Arnpacks and hey, sweet dreams everyone. So tariffs have obviously been a huge story for the outdoor industry. And we've been talking about them a ton here on the Rock Fight.
But the other major story that has been top of mind both for our community and industry has been the issues surrounding public lands. And we've talked about that, too. But the tariff situation has really kind of sucked the oxygen out of the room lately.
But this week there have been some developments that are nudging the threats to our public lands to the front of the pack. Like we talked about on this Wednesday's episode of the Rock Fight with Shante Salibair.
Last Friday, the Trump administration released their budget guidelines for 2026, which included upheavals for the Park Service, including things like transferring national park sites over to state control, as well as a number of cuts to things like the NPS Historic Preservation Fund.
And this past Wednesday night, as part of a mega bill Republicans in Congress are trying to pass, an amendment was voted on to sell off somewhere between 11,000 and 500,000 acres of public lands in Utah and Nevada. And all of this follows the budget and staff cuts that have gutted our national parks and our Forest Service over the past few months.
But if there's a frustrating thing when there's a crisis based situation like this, it's where to go. For information and where to take action. We've had Jess Turner on from the Outdoor Rec Roundtable.
We've also had Kent Ebersol on the show from the Outdoor Industry Association.
But one group we haven't had a chance to talk to yet is the Outdoor alliance, which is a nonprofit that protects the interests of most of the human powered outdoor sports we talk about here on the Rock Fight. Adam Kramer is the CEO of the Outdoor alliance and he's today to talk about who the Outdoor alliance is, what's happening in D.C.
and what we should all be doing to participate in protecting our public lands. And these conversations aren't going to end after today.
After we stopped recording, Adam and I talked about having more regular updates on the ever evolving public lands conversation here on the Rock Fight. So stay tuned to hear more on that front.
But in the meantime, welcome back to the Rock Fight, where today we're talking about the threat to our public lands with Adam Kramer. All right. We're here today with Adam Kramer, the CEO of the Outdoor Alliance. Welcome to the show. Adam, thanks for being here, man.
Adam Cramer
00:04:50.050 - 00:04:50.810
Thanks for having me.
Colin True
00:04:50.810 - 00:05:03.010
Colin, how are things in D.C. and I mean like just in general, not like what you think. I mean, we're going to get into what you think I mean, but in general how's life in D.C.
on May 7? Pretty good.
Adam Cramer
00:05:03.810 - 00:05:08.850
It's great. Great. Weather's good. Good vibe. Yeah, I'm enjoying it.
Colin True
00:05:08.930 - 00:05:12.450
Are we past the cherry blossoms? They've already. They've come and gone.
Adam Cramer
00:05:13.170 - 00:05:14.850
Oh, yeah. Way in the rear view mirror.
Colin True
00:05:14.930 - 00:05:23.690
As a paddler, do you get to the point where the Potomac is like just bathwater in the summertime when you can just go out and paddle around? There's a pfd, no dry top, any of that kind of stuff?
Adam Cramer
00:05:23.690 - 00:05:31.970
Oh, yeah, yeah. Rashguard. You know, you gotta protect for the sun, but yeah, for sure. And it's probably in the 70s now.
Colin True
00:05:32.370 - 00:05:39.600
The water temp. Yeah, that was fast. Oh, yeah, that heats up quick. Where are the headwaters of the Potomac?
Adam Cramer
00:05:40.720 - 00:05:48.080
Way like West Virginia and the border between Virginia and Maryland?
Colin True
00:05:48.240 - 00:05:48.720
Yeah.
Adam Cramer
00:05:48.800 - 00:05:51.840
Potomac and then the Shenandoah dumps in at Harpers Ferry.
Colin True
00:05:52.080 - 00:05:52.480
Right.
Adam Cramer
00:05:52.880 - 00:05:56.160
It's like the watershed's really big. It's like 12,000 square miles.
Colin True
00:05:56.400 - 00:05:56.800
Right.
Adam Cramer
00:05:56.960 - 00:06:02.720
So, yeah, a lot of water. Endless supply of water. It's like makes it the best whitewater city in the world.
Colin True
00:06:03.080 - 00:06:09.160
Okay. We're just scrapping the whole outline. We're going to go to get into that. The best whitewater city in the world.
Adam Cramer
00:06:10.040 - 00:06:12.920
Yeah. As far as the city. As far as a big city.
Colin True
00:06:13.000 - 00:06:17.480
West Coast. You're not getting this. Adam Kramer says no, it's, it's D.C. let's go.
Adam Cramer
00:06:18.200 - 00:06:22.360
Totally. I got, I got class five, three, 65, 15 minutes from my house.
Colin True
00:06:22.600 - 00:07:06.640
All right, well, let's get into the, the, the actual stuff, which I'm sure is dominating your life these days. And I kind of want to start a little more broadly, though, before we kind of get into the.
What's happening in the day to day, because I think there's things that are still confusing when it comes to who does what in advocating and working on behalf of our public lands. Right. You know, everyone in the industry.
You're definitely familiar with what we've had on, you know, Jess from, Jess Turner from the Outdoor Rec Roundtable. We've had Kent Ebersol on from the oia. You know, you're the CEO of the Outdoor alliance.
And it's not so much to understand that, like, you know, oh, there's basics that we can understand about what all the organizations do, but it's more like some clarification I think is important for the outdoor community, especially when we're a time when people are going to be asked to do certain things and where's the messaging coming from? So let's just start with what is The Outdoor Alliance.
Adam Cramer
00:07:07.280 - 00:07:40.520
Yeah, it's. It's a nonprofit organization, conservation organization.
We unify the voices of backcountry skiers and paddlers and mountain bikers and climbers and surfers to conserve and protect the places that they love. And we're also a coalition.
In addition to being an organization, we're made up of these 10 organizations that have been around doing amazing work for decades, like IMBA and Access Fund and the American Alpine Club. And what we do is Outdoor Alliance.
We bring these organizations and their respective constituencies together to throw down for public lands and waters.
Colin True
00:07:41.320 - 00:07:48.239
So why. And I say this and take this in the best way possible, why do we need both the Outdoor alliance and, like, the Outdoor Recreation Roundtable?
Adam Cramer
00:07:48.239 - 00:08:38.220
Oh, yeah. Different constituency. Outdoor Recreation Roundtable.
The memberships are businesses and organizations that, you know, build and sell things, and they have got their own agenda, and it's important, and it makes sense for them to form coalitions and advocate for that agenda. And our constituency are people. Right.
And more specifically, like kayakers and mountain bikers and climbers and surfers, individual people, human beings that might use a lot of the products that the folks at ORR sell or OIA sell, but it's a different perspective, a different sensibility. And are there. Is there alignment between ORR and OIA and Conservation Alliance? Absolutely.
And that's what makes things really pop when you find that alignment. But it's a different. It's a different constituency.
Colin True
00:08:38.620 - 00:09:49.930
Yeah. And I ask this question not to, like, cast doubt, but more just to clarify. Right.
Because it is, you know, so we had, you know, Paul on from the Conservation alliance, and he came on because we were, Charles, chatting with the head of comms over at Patagonia about what was going on for the brands for public lands. And then there's also then the Outdoor Industry association, which advocates on behalf of some of those brands.
But their fault, like, hey, Paul's the one who's really heading up this initiative. And then I know in talking with Jess that the Roundtable is a little more. It's broader. Right.
They represent the, like, the 92 different categories or whatever it is in the BEA report. Right. They kind of COVID all the categories of all outdoor rec. It's not just kind of the stuff maybe that you or I are into doing personally.
And so if you're saying, you know, you're more of, like, if I.
If you're an outdoor enthusiast and you're kind of interested in what's happening with public lands, you might be a good resource for that, I guess, ultimately, when it comes down to it, I don't think these things probably under most normal circumstances, but when we're kind of being bombarded with the fire hose of public lands are under threat, you know, all of the stuff's coming out of our presidential administration. It's a little like, well, who should I be listening to? Like, where should I go for my information?
And it's not to say that anybody has bad information. It's just sometimes it could be simpler to be like, no, no, listen, what are you interested in? Here's where you go for that info.
You know what I mean?
Adam Cramer
00:09:50.660 - 00:10:31.970
Totally. It's like, who's your tribe? Who are the people hanging out with?
You know, and you know, they're going to adjust content and opportunities based on their, their constituency, the people that they represent and the people to whom they're accountable. You know, we're accountable to climbers, we're accountable to mountain bikers. So we look at the world from that perspective.
And if you're, if you're a mountain biker or you're a climber, you're a surfer, you know, the stuff that we have and the opportunities we present might feel more comfortable, more familiar, more inspiring. But it's usually these organizations you're talking about, we work a lot together.
Colin True
00:10:32.290 - 00:10:33.730
Yes, similar.
Adam Cramer
00:10:34.450 - 00:10:42.930
Yeah, we're not at cross purposes. So, like, go where it gives you joy, you know, where you feel comfortable. That's where you should go.
Colin True
00:10:43.550 - 00:10:48.190
So there is collaboration, though, between the organizations. You guys are in contact with each other on a regular basis.
Adam Cramer
00:10:48.430 - 00:10:53.550
Yes, and has been for years. And they're all delightful, highly effective people in organizations.
Colin True
00:10:53.550 - 00:10:59.070
That's so nice. I still think there's probably some behind the scenes strife. There's gotta be some, like, good throwdowns. Come on.
Adam Cramer
00:11:00.830 - 00:11:02.190
We are on rock fight, right?
Colin True
00:11:02.190 - 00:11:42.330
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, come on, let's talk about the motorsports right now. Come on. No human powered rules. No, I'm just kidding. We're not gonna go there.
All right, well, let's. Thank you for clearing that up. I think that's. But I think it's just, it's an important distinction. Right.
Because again, it is if, just if you have an Instagram feed like mine and you're kind of like, you know, zipping through and seeing what's going on and it's like different voices kind of championing some of the same things, you know, at a higher level, it just can get a little maybe overwhelming and so kind of like to put a, you know, stamp on, like, this is what he. This is. This is how you should engage as an enthusiast with each of these organizations or what you might seek them out for in terms of information.
I just think it's just helpful.
Adam Cramer
00:11:43.210 - 00:11:58.090
Yeah, it's like stereo vision. You know, you have different perspectives and you can see things in 3D. And you've got, you know, you pull the stuff together.
You have a clearer sense of what's going on, and you understand their, you know, their perspective and helps you navigate the world a little better, so.
Colin True
00:11:58.410 - 00:12:52.640
Right on. Well, speaking of the world, let's talk about what's happening in the world.
Over the course of the last couple of weeks, when it comes to public lands, we've seen or heard the following. We've had a leaked document from the Department of Interior detailing the Trump administration's plans for public lands.
Last week, the administration itself released their budget guidelines for 2026, which included upheavals for the Park Service, including things like transferring national park sites over to state control and cutting things like the NPS Historic Preservation Fund. The Forest Service and the BLM have been directed to come up with parcels ready for quote, unquote.
Disposal agencies are sorting through their reductions in force, which are, you know, or they're losing up to about 30% of their staff. That's on top of the cuts we've had a couple of months ago.
So we could probably spend, you know, our entire time listing out all these other things, too.
But how do you just sort of summarize, based on your history, working in this space, like, what's happening right now in the United States as it pertains to our public lands?
Adam Cramer
00:12:52.640 - 00:15:19.640
It's pretty rowdy. It's a lot. Right. And, you know, I think there's, you know, so where to begin? Right.
You talked about the, the Interior Department strategic plan and the budget. There's an attempt to do a reset what public lands mean. And there's this focus on extraction.
Almost like really interesting, curious over focus on extraction and energy dominance and oil and gas and mining and timber and not there's this shift from in the past was like this idea of multiple use. You got all these different things that public lands provide, clean air, clean water, habitat, recreation and extraction and timber.
But the goal is how do we find a sustainable balance through time? It provides benefit for the whole country.
And what's going on now, as far as I could tell, is there's this effort to shift things in a really severe way towards big things out of balance. So tilt towards extraction and development and the narratives that they're using are to make things cheaper over the short term.
It's kind of a payday loan mentality. And thinking about all these resources as items on a balance sheet, which it's not like they don't have economic value.
They do, but they also have all these other attributes, other value in terms of they're part of our country, part of our identity. They're very meaningful beyond just dollar figure and that's just kind of pushed to the side. And this vibe of.
Or anxiety around national security in terms of a justification for energy dominance, it's like, oh, my God, AI, we need a limitless source of infinite energy to protect our country. It's like, come on, man.
Like, not that national security is not important, but it's this shift from let's help make sure everything kind of fits in a thoughtful way and different people could have different ideas as to how to strike that balance.
To like, no, shove everything over everything towards development, extraction, everything over to the short term and not thinking about the long term. And that's kind of the through line that I'm discerning over the last, I don't know, since the beginning of the year.
Colin True
00:15:19.960 - 00:16:10.990
Yeah, January 20th, maybe somewhere around there. What's the vibe on Capitol Hill, though, Right?
Because speaking of the beginning of the year, we're not that far removed from a unified Congress passing the Explore Act.
We talk about how the outdoors is this nonpartisan topic, not even a bipartisan, a nonpartisan topic, that everybody loves the outdoors for different ways and reasons. And generally speaking, when it comes to policy, there's always common ground to be found and people.
I mean, what, what, how many, you know, sponsored bills had. Had, you know, both sides of the aisles on them, on them from the past few years that didn't include public lands? Probably not that many.
So what's the vibe on Capitol Hill? I mean, you're there, right? You see this on a somewhat regular basis. Is it just people hanging on for dear life?
I mean, why aren't we hearing more from the, from the, the people in Congress?
Adam Cramer
00:16:11.230 - 00:16:35.130
It's a bit fraught, right? Like, the margins are really narrow in terms of the House and the Senate.
Like the, the there's a Republican, unified Republican government, but by like the smallest margins, like, so it's really, really hard to get things done with those small margins. And I think, like, like the vibe in terms of public lands or the vibe generally?
Colin True
00:16:35.210 - 00:16:40.230
Like, I'm both, I guess, you know. Yeah.
Adam Cramer
00:16:40.310 - 00:17:28.459
I think there's this sense that administration might be getting out over its skis A little bit like they came in and they want to shake up a bunch of things and changing and evolving things and making things better. That's good.
It's a responsible thing to do, but there's everything all at once and this kind of almost like a bit of a destructive vibe, like everything in D.C. is, is a problem and needs to be taken down. I don't know, it's a little too far.
And so I think there's this effort to reconcile the desire to make things a little better with the energy and the intensity that makes it difficult to evolve things in an iterative, thoughtful way. It's like it's too much.
Colin True
00:17:28.939 - 00:19:34.370
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what I keep coming back to on this is the premise is flawed in this. Right. And, and it actually kind of pisses me off.
I mean, I may have said this on an episode recently where, you know, I, I'm, I'm generally very pragmatic on things. Like, even on this show, right.
When I talk about, I don't know, brands and sustainability and I, you know, and people like, you know, if, if, if you, if mostly holding you accountable to your own public statements, brands, when you talk sustainability, if you're saying to me, hey, the outdoors matters and where, how we manufacture matters and everything, and then you find out you're like polluting a river in China to make your stuff, it's like, well off. No, you don' hold you to account for that.
If you are going to say we're going to make this stuff the cheapest possible and, and sell it for the biggest margins we can.
I won't really support your brand or like, what you do, but I like, hey, well, that's your prerogative to do it and thank you for being honest with me so I can make my decision.
And I think it's the same thing here where this premise of, you know, I mean, freaking Rand Paul said something a couple weeks ago when it came to tariffs about like there, you know, the premise that there's an emergency here is not accurate. Right. And that's Rand Paul.
So the fact that we're just creating these quote unquote emergencies, especially when it comes to energy, when I think we've had the biggest surplus of oil we've had in maybe a long time, is pretty dubious.
And so, yes, couldn't there be any argument to be made that maybe there are some public lands out there that could be sold off to help a crisis of housing in a certain location? Maybe, I don't know.
But if you make that case to me in a thoughtful way and point to like, hey, no one's recreating here, and if we did this, we could do X, Y and Z and it would really help things. Well, I'm open to that conversation, but for you just to say, hey, we're going to.
Was an emergency, so we're going to do whatever we want and cut all these things and be really not thoughtful about how we go about it and lay people off and lay waste to departments who make sure that these things run properly.
So, yeah, I'm going to get angry about that, you know, and like, I think that's kind of where I'm at, where I'm like, I would like to hear some more voices, sort of like saying no. Right. And we're not. We want to be a little more vocal about this, I guess. I don't have a question in there. I just need to rant for a second.
Adam Cramer
00:19:34.370 - 00:19:45.170
But you, you kind of. It's kind of articulated like this. It's like this emergency fetish, like this fixation with like, oh, it's an, like, everything's an emergency.
Colin True
00:19:45.170 - 00:19:48.890
Well, it gets them around Congress. Right. I mean, that's kind of the point. Yeah, right.
Adam Cramer
00:19:48.890 - 00:20:02.170
It's like, is it an emergency or you just can't build some consensus and do some thoughtful piece of policy making? Oh, let's make it an emergency. Not that emergencies don't exist, but like.
Colin True
00:20:03.050 - 00:20:04.170
You know, not like this.
Adam Cramer
00:20:05.050 - 00:22:37.210
No, no, it's like kind of a. I don't know. It's disappointing. But, you know, we asked about Congress. It's like, that's the hedge, right? I mean, that's.
Those people are accountable to you, to where you live. You know, you got a congressperson, you got two senators. They're directly accountable to you as a constituent.
And it kind of makes it into, like, it breaks government to this. You think of it this huge thing. But your representatives and your senators make it much more accessible to you.
And you can't talk to everybody, but they'll listen to you. You got standing and that matters.
And then if you organize around that and start building some momentum around certain ideas, then your lawmakers are like, huh, this is what I'm hearing back in the Skitton district. I got to take that into account, my decision making. So it's like, you look at all this stuff going on and it's disorienting. It can be disappointing.
But there is a play as a citizen and more so if you're part of a community, like being part of the outdoor Community, you got an agenda. You got certain things that are important to you, and there's a way to communicate that as an individual, but also as a collective.
And that kind of stuff matters. Those narratives matter.
And we were talking before about this, you know, this narrative of, like, shifting towards extraction, like, everything all at once. And, you know, it's. It's rickety policy.
But rather than getting, you know, nerding out and getting all lawyerly, you got to offset that with another narrative, more hopeful narrative, something that makes sense to people and that people could relate to. And then the policy, it follows from the narrative.
Like, you know, if you get too wound up about policy and too outraged about certain ideas, not that you shouldn't be upset about them, but if you don't have, like a substrate of a narrative, it's really hard to get anywhere. It's hard to get anything done. And that's what I think some of the superpower is within our community, in the industry.
Like, we've got a sense of self. We got a pretty good narrative, and it resonates with people. And you said earlier, you know, what's this? Is recreation bipartisan?
Is outdoor bipartisan or is it transpartisan? Does go beyond partisanship. It's like it does in certain regards, because everybody, regardless of your political stripe, you could.
You could project yourself into the outdoors. You could relate to it, you know, in your own different version of it. And, you know, that's a huge asset, navigating these times.
Colin True
00:22:40.810 - 00:23:51.110
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It will be sure to put a smile on your toes. And now back to the show. I do wonder if that's the. The blend of the two is sort of the. I think I put our outline right. The outdoors.
Could the outdoors become a third rail topic? They sort of, that sort of gets some things happening.
And I think the combination between public lands like we saw, you know, the alignment coming out coming out of Montana over the last week. Right.
Adam Cramer
00:25:28.560 - 00:25:29.000
Yeah.
Colin True
00:25:29.000 - 00:26:07.360
And the right. And, and even then on the tariff situation, like I said, Rand Paul, speaking up, speaking up.
Even if nothing was going to come of that, like I just still see it as a sign of things heading in the right direction on that front and just the impact that, you know, that specialty retail, that big box retail that outdoor brands will have because of the tariffs and then also because of a, a poorer version of a public lands policy. I do, you know, everybody wants to think that, you know, they're the most, you know, they're the hero of the story.
I do see a path here where the outdoors becomes the hero of the story here. Right. And just like, it becomes sort of the bandwagon that people could jump on to maybe, you know, bring things back around in a. In a positive way.
Adam Cramer
00:26:07.440 - 00:26:14.650
Hey, why not take that opportunity? I mean, if they'll. If they'll have us to do that, to be the hero, why not? Right?
Colin True
00:26:14.650 - 00:26:30.170
Well, yeah, we do need our leaders to speak up. If I'm a little angry at the Dems right now, it's like, hey, guys, maybe you should talk a little more.
You know, like, you're sending strongly worded emails to people who are on, like, you know, podcasts and cable news, like, yelling into microphones. It's not really working the same way.
Adam Cramer
00:26:30.170 - 00:27:46.490
You know, it's difficult terrain, for sure. But, you know, I admire how OA came to town. They lobbied. They, they. They had, like, their agenda. They met with people, you know, they show up.
TCA is coming to town next week doing the same thing. A month before, I had all the CEOs of Outdoor alliance, of the member organizations of Outdoor Alliance.
Well, went into town, met with Secretary Bergam, met with Congressman Sinke, met with these people that are making decisions and informing how they think about things by channeling the values and the sentiments and the perspectives, you know, of our community, you know, to talk about, you know, things that are really pressing these days, like how to fund the Forest Service or whether people should be employed there or not, or, you know, public lands and tariffs and all of it. It's like, it's rowdy, but, like, I'm sure you've heard that saying, the world is ruled by those who show up. Like, you have to show up.
And our industry and our community, I admire that they're showing up, they're being sincere, they're being earnest. They're not just, like, going to the basement and curling up into a ball. Right. Which some people do.
Colin True
00:27:46.810 - 00:28:15.700
I do want to ask you about showing up. It's kind of the last thing I want to hit on, but I do. I'm curious your point of view on this. Right? So if you.
Because you're right, it's all that, you know, the group from the OIA and the NRF showing up. They had. I believe they had a meeting with Secretary Bergam as well. And you see these meetings happening and people showing up, like you said.
And then after all that, you still get the budget release about the way things are going to go down. I mean, how deflating is That, I mean, how.
How do you operate knowing that, like, well, we showed up and it didn't seem like it had much of an impact on the powers that be.
Adam Cramer
00:28:16.820 - 00:29:29.990
Yeah, it's, well, long game. Right. And. And the budget is like, it's like, it's the presidential budget, and you're like, it's the President. And this is how.
It's a bit more of like theater and messaging. The President, whoever it is, could say, this is how I want to spend money. This is how it's going to be. But Congress is like, sit down, son.
We're the ones that decide how much money to spend and where to spend it and which agencies get it, what to invest in. And when the President and Congress is of the same party, is there more alignment? Sure.
Is Congress going to take into account these things, take certain things more seriously? Does this come from a president of their party? Yes.
But is there a direct connection between what a president just comes up with and what ends up happening? It's a couple of things along the way, and that's why Congress is so important.
They're the ones making the decision, and those are the people that are accountable to all of us. So, like, you can't go in, like, all of us can't talk to all senators or Congress people.
Colin True
00:29:30.230 - 00:29:30.550
Right.
Adam Cramer
00:29:30.550 - 00:29:43.030
But there, but there are a few of them that you can, and it adds up. So it's like, it's grim and it's deflating, and you're like, are you serious? This is the stuff you want to focus on.
Colin True
00:29:43.510 - 00:29:43.910
Right.
Adam Cramer
00:29:44.230 - 00:29:49.580
But there is a play. There is a line to take. There is a. There is a response to that.
Colin True
00:29:50.060 - 00:31:04.510
Yeah. I think if some people would probably, especially in this administration, particularly kind of get concerned of it. Yeah.
President's overstepping his bounds in a lot of different ways, and Congress doesn't seem to be willing either side to sort of hold him to account. So when it comes to this. Yeah. There's traditionally rules in place of, like, how this should go.
At the same time, though, where I see if there's a positivity, and this is kind of a good segue into kind of our last thing about what should we do if we're going back on.
Okay, well, if public lands and getting outside and recreating is a kind of universal thing that is typically does not divisive, and there's going to be things in the plan that is going to be discussed for 2026 that is going to harm your ability, regardless of who you voted for in the last presidential election, to Go do the things that you love. Oh, and hey, by the way, guess who's up for election in the midterms? Oh, it's your representative, it's your senator. Those kinds of things.
That's where the things can all start to kind of come together.
And that's where I feel like if there's going to be times when potentially the, you know, the folks who are just kind of going along for the ride with our current president, maybe they'll start to sort of jump off the ship and say, oh, hey, wait a minute, I'm not going to get reelected unless I fix this. Okay?
Adam Cramer
00:31:04.510 - 00:31:12.280
Or so you're totally right. You're totally right. And they're already doing it because they anticipate that, you know, 20, 26, not that far away.
Colin True
00:31:12.520 - 00:31:13.320
No, it's not.
Adam Cramer
00:31:13.320 - 00:31:41.090
And both Republicans and Democrats have pushed back on this administration with the approach they've been taking on public lands in terms of hiring with the layoffs and the rehiring and the layoffs, again, especially with national parks. And some Republicans are overt about it in public and some are not, but they're still doing it.
And we're hearing that they're going back to the White House going like, what are you doing? You're killing me, man. Don't do this.
Colin True
00:31:42.290 - 00:31:45.330
I like hearing that angle. They won't say it's true.
Adam Cramer
00:31:45.330 - 00:31:56.930
I mean, that's, that's what we're hearing. And I take them at their word. So there is questioning, there is pushback. Is it as public as I'd like to see it? Yeah, not yet.
Colin True
00:31:57.250 - 00:31:57.730
Yeah.
Adam Cramer
00:31:59.890 - 00:32:39.450
But essentially what we're doing is like, we're putting, by showing up, you're putting weight in the scale, you're putting a price tag on the political decisions and the policy decisions that they're floating. And our job is to say this bad stuff, it's way expensive. It's too high a price to pay.
That if you pursue these ideas, if you start selling off more public land, if you don't fund the agencies properly, the political cost is too high. And if they start thinking in those terms, then I'm not going to lose my job over this.
And not because they're like so overly self interested, but their job is to represent the interests of their constituents.
Colin True
00:32:40.810 - 00:32:42.810
Some of them are pretty self interested. Let's see.
Adam Cramer
00:32:42.810 - 00:33:09.750
Well, I mean, they are, they are, but like they also like just being objective about it. Like they, they're like, what's the gig? It's like, well, you got 700,000 people that you have to represent their interests.
So you got to figure out what they want, and then you got to show up in D.C. and, like, make decisions with them in mind, primarily. And that's, like, it's hard to do. You can't talk to all of them.
Colin True
00:33:10.070 - 00:33:10.830
Right, right.
Adam Cramer
00:33:10.830 - 00:33:39.780
But once the ones that show up, you'd extrapolate. And people that show up through organizations or businesses and they start modeling out, like, what do. What do my constituents really need?
Or what do they want? And I believe it does have an impact. They don't always make the same decisions that you'd like.
But the worst thing is not showing up, not putting weight in the scale, because then it's free. Then they get to decide whatever they want, and that doesn't help them or us.
Colin True
00:33:40.100 - 00:34:05.950
Well, so I guess, last thing, we've mentioned a few things, but how should we show up? What can we do? I get an email from you guys at the Outdoor alliance encouraging me to reach out to congresspeople.
I did, and I do, but I'm in Southern California, and I'm pretty sure my congresspeople are generally aligned with how I feel about these things. Um, you know, is that all we can really do right now?
What can an individual do at time right now when there is kind of some, you know, people are worried and they're upset with what's happening.
Adam Cramer
00:34:06.590 - 00:34:15.550
Yeah. So keep doing that call. And if we. You get an email, every email we send, you got to open it up, you got to take action.
Colin True
00:34:16.190 - 00:34:20.230
Okay, so one time's not enough. Right. So if I've already done it once, do it again.
Adam Cramer
00:34:20.230 - 00:34:22.110
I'll just play. I'm just. I'm just playing.
Colin True
00:34:22.110 - 00:34:31.940
I'm doing, you guys. Make it real easy to do. By the way, anybody listening to this, click link. Click, click, click the link, and then you click another link.
And basically, that's all you got to do. It's real simple.
Adam Cramer
00:34:31.940 - 00:35:37.560
Well, yeah, that's our job.
We're like, there's all this gobbledygook going on, and it's our responsibility to translate it to practically, what does this mean and what can you do about it? And that's what we do all day. Right.
And that's why having 10 member organizations, all representing their respective communities, like, working together, we've got, like, this kind of machine where we can figure out, you know, of all the squirrel, like, what's the most important and how to. How to make it actionable. You're a kayaker surfer, a mountain biker. So, yeah, staying up on the emails is important.
And then you might say like, all right, my congressperson or senator, they're totally, you know, we're. We're a lock on everything I care about. But letting them know that it gives them cover. It gives them some incentive. It makes.
It makes it clear to them that this is valuable and they need to stand up for it and then maybe take an extra step, push back a little harder on bad ideas, not just agree with you, but help them be a champ on this stuff. Help them be a leader on this stuff. So whoever your representative is, dip in and check in with them and let them know what you think.
Even if you don't like them, even if you didn't vote for them, they're still accountable to you.
Colin True
00:35:37.640 - 00:35:38.040
Right?
Adam Cramer
00:35:38.120 - 00:36:51.700
So I think, like, the first step is just trying to stay as current as your interest and appetite permit.
You know, we try to make this stuff as accessible as possible, but just being aware in tune of what's going on and when the opportunities to take action present themselves, take action. And if you want to, like, level up, you want to make a phone call, the emails are super easy. Phone calls are, like, super impactful.
They got people that work at these offices. It's their job to answer the phone call, and they keep lists of things, and they keep checklists and, like. And then they have meetings.
Like, how many people called about this? People called about that. And that's how they extrapolate in terms of what's important. Town hall meetings. Super, super important.
Just showing up yourself or going with a group.
And then if you got a certain tilt towards, like, you know, surfing or climbing or mountain biking, you know, whatever your little subculture is, like, be tuned into what's important to them, you know, because as a collective, you're able to get stuff done way more effective than if you're an individual.
So it's like, use that individual agency that you've got, but get your bearings, get your orientation from your friends and the people you care about and people you respect.
Colin True
00:36:51.940 - 00:36:53.060
Done. Let's do it.
Adam Cramer
00:36:53.220 - 00:36:56.020
All right, man. And then we'll go. And then we'll go kayaking.
Colin True
00:36:56.020 - 00:37:04.500
Yeah. As I say, all else fails, like, fly out to D.C. adam will take you out on his boat. We'll go. You go paddle. The best.
The best paddling city in the world. Yeah, it's right there.
Adam Cramer
00:37:04.500 - 00:37:05.060
Stand by it.
Colin True
00:37:05.060 - 00:37:06.020
White water. White water.
Adam Cramer
00:37:06.260 - 00:37:06.900
White water.
Colin True
00:37:07.940 - 00:37:15.460
I appreciate it, man. Thank you for making some time to come on with us. I think. I'm sure this topic's gonna persist, so I. Hopefully we can do this again.
Maybe then I'll see you just in future.
Adam Cramer
00:37:15.540 - 00:37:17.780
Anytime, man. Anytime.
Colin True
00:37:17.780 - 00:37:19.740
All right, buddy. Appreciate you coming on. Talk to you soon.
Adam Cramer
00:37:19.740 - 00:37:20.340
Thank you.
Colin True
00:37:21.380 - 00:38:41.560
All right, that's the show for today.
Learn more about the Outdoor alliance by heading to outdooralliance.org Like I said at the top, we're gonna be staying in touch with the Outdoor alliance going forward. If something develops that you should be aware of, we'll be helping to get you that information here on the Rock Fight.
And come back to the Rock Fight on Monday to hear producer Dave Owen Coverford and I run down the inaugural class of the self inflicted hall of fame. Check out the latest from the Rock Fight podcast network, Open Container with Doug Schnitzbahn. Check out that show.
And the Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight llc. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And he's here to take us out. It's our guy. Chris Demaikz is going to sing the Rock Fight Fight song right now.
We'll see you next time. Rock Fighters. Rock Fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Welcome to the Rock fight Where we speak our truth Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
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Chris DeMakes
00:38:41.880 - 00:39:01.810
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