REI’s 'Peak 28' Unwrapped + Hobie Hooks Up with Bass Pro
- colin7931
- Oct 6
- 36 min read
Today on The Rock Fight, Colin, Eoin Comerford, and Producer Dave tackle a packed week of outdoor industry news!
First up, the crew reacts to the latest ripple effects of Outdoor Retailer’s Minnesota move and whether the industry is being too quick to jump on the “OR is back” bandwagon. With questions around the “Leadership Village,” the role of run and lifestyle categories, and whether the show truly knows who it’s for, Colin and Eoin argue that defining the audience is the only way forward. (05:56)
Next, the conversation turns to Bass Pro’s acquisition of Hobie. Once a pioneering surf and sailing brand turned kayak powerhouse, Hobie has faced dealer frustration, supply chain nightmares, and brand drift. Will Bass Pro revive Hobie, turn it into a house brand, or alienate specialty retailers even further? Dave dives into Hobie’s rich heritage and what Bass Pro could do with the name; if they think beyond fishing kayaks. (13:23)
The lightning round brings more industry headlines (21:20):
Kohl’s pushes its FLX line into kids’ activewear.
Keen jumps into the crowded trail running shoe market with “The Seek.”
Arc’teryx shrugs off PR fallout from its controversial Himalayan fireworks stunt.
Support those who support The Rock Fight! Today's sponsors: Ibex, Fjallraven, Lems Shoes, Royal Robbins, and Conatus Counsel! (26:18)
Finally, the hosts analyze REI’s new strategic plan, Peak 28. With four lofty pillars—culture, assortment, service, and membership—the co-op hints at big changes ahead. But with payroll bloat, declining margins, and vague promises, the question remains: will REI truly reinvent itself, or is this just frosting on an underbaked cake? (30:37)
The show closes with The Parting Shot presented by Garage Grown Gear, celebrating a big week for women-led outdoor brands like Wild Rye, Gnara, and Title Nine’s Pitchfest. Proof that despite the challenges, inspiring things are happening across the outdoor landscape. (39:59)
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Episode Transcript:
Producer Dave
00:00:02.080 - 00:00:39.830
This just in. Breaking news from the Rock Fight.
A group of San Francisco based tech investors have announced they are launching a subscription based publishing ecosystem of adult themed outdoor magazines. Gear Hunky plus will debut this spring with an orgy of coverage of all things uncovered outside.
The first issue will feature Alexi Handhold's attempt at the first clothing free solo of El Capitan in Yosemite, complete with centerfold listicles and affiliate links.
Gearhunky plus glossy full color print editions harken back to a day when people had to pay for their adult outdoor content or find it in the woods behind their house like everyone else.
Colin True
00:00:40.950 - 00:01:47.600
While that may not be true, you know what is true? Ibex Merino is as home in your shop as duct tape on Denali.
We're talking authentic heritage, real sustainability, privately owned and of course premium performance that has become legendary.
From everyday essentials like the goatee to expedition ready pieces like the mammoth hoodie, Ibex has a premium merino lair ready to outfit any of your customers. Schedule some time with their team at GEOA Connect in Kansas City this November.
You know, maybe it's time to make a little room for the goat in your store. Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes, sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True and joining me today, they've packed their trade show bags and they're on their way to Minnesota for a 10 month outdoor retailer tailgate. It's the Monday boys. Owen Comerford and producer Dave. What's up guys? I love that. You never know what I'm gonna say. It makes me so happy.
Producer Dave
00:01:48.000 - 00:01:48.800
I just.
Eoin Comerford
00:01:48.880 - 00:01:50.680
Just don't even know where to go.
Colin True
00:01:50.680 - 00:01:53.280
Come on, you're headed out. You're so excited about the news.
Eoin Comerford
00:01:53.360 - 00:01:56.320
Just gonna soda for the crazy, crazy week.
Producer Dave
00:01:56.720 - 00:01:57.080
Right?
Eoin Comerford
00:01:57.080 - 00:01:59.100
I go, I go away week people.
Producer Dave
00:01:59.740 - 00:02:05.140
Right? And the prospect of $12 soft drinks and cold sandwiches.
Colin True
00:02:05.140 - 00:02:13.700
She's gonna live. Are there buc ee's along the way between your respective homes in Minnesota? I hope Bucky's having a moment on like Instagram reels and tick tock.
Producer Dave
00:02:13.700 - 00:02:14.540
I don't think so.
Eoin Comerford
00:02:14.620 - 00:02:20.700
No Buc EE's? No, they're spawning as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, right.
Colin True
00:02:20.700 - 00:02:25.870
What's the percentage of the global supply chain and stuff in Buc EE's? I think there's probably sp pretty high.
Producer Dave
00:02:25.870 - 00:02:28.990
Amount right there, right? It's impressive.
Colin True
00:02:28.990 - 00:02:29.990
Yeah, that's one word.
Producer Dave
00:02:29.990 - 00:02:30.670
It is impressive.
Colin True
00:02:30.670 - 00:03:04.450
All right, well, today we're going to offer some follow up thoughts to the big outdoor retailer news as well as weigh in on the latest from REI and some other headlines to come out of the outdoor industry. But first, some programming reminders.
We never want you to miss an episode of the Rock Fight, so please click follow on the podcast app you are using right now on no new open container tomorrow we're taking a week off or so to reload the container with some fresh stories. Working on a bunch of amazing things happening over there with Doug Schnitzbahn.
But you will on Thursday get an all new new episode of Gear Abbey with host Shante Salibair who answers all of your burning outdoor questions. So make sure you're following both of those podcasts.
Eoin Comerford
00:03:04.770 - 00:03:33.910
And gotta ask you like Colin on the Gear Abbey front, do we. Does it come with any kind of warning?
Because I just listened to the last episode and two phrases stick in my mind banging animals and the other one is poo stew. Okay, those are two actual phrases from that show and I feel like there should be like if you're in any way squeamish, I don't know, some sort.
Colin True
00:03:33.910 - 00:03:37.310
Of parental warning, I don't know.
Producer Dave
00:03:37.470 - 00:03:42.510
Yeah, pretty sure those were the warm up acts at the Hawthorne Theater last night.
Colin True
00:03:42.510 - 00:03:43.910
Ah, Poo Stew is a good band.
Producer Dave
00:03:43.910 - 00:03:46.590
I'm just saying. Yeah, right.
Colin True
00:03:47.390 - 00:03:54.190
I don't want to speak for Shantae. She's not here to defend herself. But my guess is that I think she's writing these episodes with how can I offend Owen in mind.
Eoin Comerford
00:03:56.180 - 00:04:01.300
I don't feel offended. I just. It's just like, okay, we went there. Oh, we went there too.
Chris DeMakes
00:04:01.460 - 00:04:02.260
Okay, cool.
Colin True
00:04:03.540 - 00:04:06.660
About our whole episode where we talked about horny salmon. So that was.
Eoin Comerford
00:04:08.340 - 00:04:11.380
Wow. Okay, sorry. Yes, please. Back to our regular.
Colin True
00:04:11.380 - 00:04:16.980
Can't wait for her to hear this. Dave, what should our listeners do if they want more from the Rock Fight?
Producer Dave
00:04:16.980 - 00:04:33.290
Well, I guess if you want more from the Rock Fight, you're gonna have to subscribe to the newsletter News from the Front, our semi weekly newsletter, semi monthly newsletter, Rockfight Co. Rockfight Co. Sign up today.
Colin True
00:04:33.450 - 00:04:42.570
And Owen, you know, if we want to hear from you, you specifically, since you left us, how can we hear from you? No, how can our listeners write into the Rock Fight?
Eoin Comerford
00:04:42.570 - 00:04:57.780
This is a tough question. Well, they should email us@myrockfightmail.com they can also reach out to us on LinkedIn.
Just search up the Rock Fight or on Instagram where we are Rock Fight Co. All one word and slip into Collins DMs.
Colin True
00:04:58.740 - 00:05:01.300
How are we feeling about the state of LinkedIn?
Eoin Comerford
00:05:01.300 - 00:05:03.380
These days, LinkedIn.
Colin True
00:05:03.700 - 00:05:08.100
LinkedIn. Is it still as fun as it was like a year ago or, you know, are we getting jaded?
Eoin Comerford
00:05:08.100 - 00:05:33.660
Was LinkedIn ever fun? No, no. I don't know. I mean, I would say so much of LinkedIn is just self congratulatory bullshit.
It actually, it's, it's good for me because I, you know, actually spent some time trying to put together some content that has some thought and worthwhile and isn't all about how brilliant I am. Although that's the underlying current, obviously.
Colin True
00:05:34.140 - 00:05:35.620
Did you notice how smart I am?
Eoin Comerford
00:05:35.620 - 00:05:54.920
Yeah. Do you notice? So, but yeah, yeah, no.
So much of it is just horseshit or people who are just sort of fishing for follows or oh, isn't working from home great or whatever. Whatever. Yeah. But I find actually some good content out there.
Colin True
00:05:56.040 - 00:06:39.490
All right, so first thing I want to talk about today is a little bit more on the big news of last week, which was the outdoor retailer, news of the show, moving to Minnesota and moving to August. So we're recording this today. After Owen and I chatted with Sunny and Lindsey about all of that, we heard from a lot of people in the last 24 hours.
And so I have some follow up thoughts that I want to discuss with you guys. And also we need to get Dave's take on this. The first one is. And back to our LinkedIn conversation. Oh, and like shiny object syndrome.
I feel like in the outdoor industry is real. I saw a lot of people, both personal text messages on LinkedIn and in some other places, people have just been pouring dirt on outdoor retailer.
And then a lot of the messages and posts I saw being like, hey, or is back. They're moving to Minnesota. So I thought that was kind of funny, like just how easily excited a lot of folks in the industry are.
Eoin Comerford
00:06:39.730 - 00:06:43.810
It's actually a more positive reaction than I would have expected. So. Okay, cool.
Colin True
00:06:44.170 - 00:06:52.730
But it does seem, you know, it's a little disingenuous. Like, you know, I don't think they got it anymore. I can't go to or anymore. Now it's like, are you moving to Minnesota? Oh, yeah.
I always believed in you.
Eoin Comerford
00:06:52.890 - 00:07:02.170
We'll see. Will people actually, you know, be excited to get away from their, their LinkedIn keyboards and on a plane? So that's going to be the big question.
Colin True
00:07:02.970 - 00:07:36.120
The second thing is, and we talked a little bit about this with Lindsey and Sunny and I think Owen, you and I did as well. I am a little concerned about the old school kind of outdoor approach this team is starting out on. Right.
The leadership Village, as they're calling themselves. It's a very much an industry, old school kind of outdoor industry group of folks. The first roster kind of feels like we've been here before.
So I do want to see where this plays out. Like we talked about, you know, run and casual, those are the driving categories right now for outdoor.
And I think for them to find success, I think that I just want to reiterate, I think that is going to have to be addressed at some.
Eoin Comerford
00:07:36.120 - 00:08:03.540
Point or 2.0, which I'm now calling this, or 2.0. It can't just be you're not going to get back to or those days are over. I think you've had that conversation many times with Sean and others.
So, yeah, you need to develop a show for today, not for 10 years ago. And I think they will need to expand the roster a little bit to get some of that in here as.
Colin True
00:08:03.540 - 00:09:10.490
They'Re looking to do that. I think if they really want to enjoy is my last point. And I want to hear. Dave, want you to jump in here with your thoughts.
You haven't had a chance at talk about it yet. If they really wanted to get to that return to form. And again, I think we said this, it was one of the first questions I asked Lindsey.
You got to define who the show is for and give those people a reason to show up. And I'm not just saying that's for or I think Switchback has a similar challenge.
Anybody who's making a show or putting on a show, this is something that there's a lot of options out there. There's a lot of things that people can come and do and places they can spend their time.
And I'm not sure, and I'm not really talking about the industry days and the panels. I don't think those things are enough.
I was actually catching up with our friend of the pod, Wes Allen, who owns a brick and mortar shop and Cod, Wyoming. He's been on the show multiple times. I'm sure we'll be having him on again sometime in the near future.
You know, he's consistently lamented any shows being other than GOA being held in June. And he loves the idea of the show being in August, but that's because he is a brick and mortar retailer who has a lot to do in June.
So if he's the target audience, if the GOA accounts are the target audience, then yeah, this is kind of like a home run for that. Like, you know, hey, the people we want to have come here, here's who's going to come. This is what they're looking for.
We're going to accommodate that.
Eoin Comerford
00:09:10.730 - 00:09:30.410
But they, in fairness, they answered that question and they said very clearly it was brands and retailers. This is a show for those folks.
And so, you know, like we said in the show on Friday, if ultimately, if all of these things doesn't move the needle for those folks and get them back to the show, then it didn't work.
Colin True
00:09:30.810 - 00:10:03.800
You're absolutely right. I think what I'm saying is the. A lot of the.
I don't want to call it fluff, a lot of the sort of other parts of the announcement in terms of the panels and the events and stuff like that kind of overshadowed that piece of it.
And I think a simple message to the people you really want to have come and the value in that and it's not in having an industry day and those kinds of things. I think that's kind of what I'm getting at. I think that's sort of the make the proposition. This is what we have. Here's why you come.
And then you can do all of those other things. Right. Just to have them happen. But it needs to be. That's the frosting. That's not the cake, I guess, is what I'm saying.
Eoin Comerford
00:10:04.280 - 00:10:37.330
Totally.
And, you know, it's the classic chicken or the egg scenario, which is, you know, we've got to get the brands to get the retailers, but we have to have the retailers show up to keep the brands coming and vice versa, you know, and we saw that. I think we saw that in the first switchback, where I would say we have more brands than retailers.
So I think, if anything, I think they're leaning on the retailer side this time with the GOA Scholarship and that kind of piece. To me, the bigger question is brands. If you don't get some core brands showing up, then I think it's going to be tricky.
Colin True
00:10:37.570 - 00:10:42.530
All right, Dave, get in here. It's your first time. Everybody stand back. It's been since Thursday of last week.
Producer Dave
00:10:42.610 - 00:10:43.330
Setting this way.
Colin True
00:10:43.330 - 00:10:44.930
No one's heard thoughts.
Producer Dave
00:10:45.090 - 00:10:47.370
What is there to say? You guys have covered it all.
Colin True
00:10:47.370 - 00:10:48.010
All right, good.
Producer Dave
00:10:48.010 - 00:11:56.400
I mean, look, you know, creating a unique and compelling reason to show up. That's every brand's challenge is to do that. So that's no different than anybody else. It has been their unique challenge, for sure.
You know, we still haven't answered the question, does the industry need multiple national shows for retailers and brands? I don't know the answer to that question.
I'm just saying that that's one that's out there kind of where you guys were just talking about, too, in terms of, you know, it's about retailers, it's about brands. I'm not sure that they haven't gone through all the exercise of what can be radically rethought. Right.
I think timing, okay, that's always the issue for everybody. But what setup, what format would make this so compelling as to have to be there? You know, is this the speed dating of trade shows?
And everybody gets a table, not a booth. And one after the other, and it's a lower cost to get into. And I don't know, is there just something that uses technology?
Plus, the IRL leaves more time for mixing, but it compels people to come in and be able to do business in one or two days.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:57.040 - 00:11:57.200
Right.
Producer Dave
00:11:57.200 - 00:12:21.120
Bam. Get in there. And again, I don't just.
It's just more of an idea of just how do we make this such a compelling format that is distinct and unique and different the way we've always done it and start building? Because maybe the second year of this version doesn't look like the first, doesn't look like the third. Right.
But at least, what is that to get out of the door and just remake how we interact together.
Colin True
00:12:21.760 - 00:12:51.710
And this is why it's such a compelling thing. I need to talk about and why we do talk about trade shows so much. And we're interested in it because. Right.
As you said that, like, what about a table? I'm like, well, then like a brand like the North Face could BRINGING what, like three products? I mean, like, you can't get your.
They can probably get their line into a 20 by 20 booth because it's so big. Right. They can't show their whole line. So. But you know what I mean, like, immediately you're like, okay, well, there's nits to pick.
But then if you don't do that, then you're back to, well, we all have big booths again. I mean, it's like, it's totally. There's no real black and white solution to any of these things, which I think what makes it so compelling.
Producer Dave
00:12:52.670 - 00:12:55.790
Yeah, right, right. There's workarounds for all of that.
Colin True
00:12:55.870 - 00:13:14.190
I do want to share with you guys, and I won't say who it is, but I was texting with somebody else in outdoor media about all this, and we were mentioning, you know, the Minnesota of it all and the Lloyd Vogel of it all, and they wrote to me, hot take Lloyd is the Trader Joe of outdoor gear. And I'm like, yes, can we get Trader Lloyd Merch going immediately.
Eoin Comerford
00:13:14.270 - 00:13:16.030
We need him in a Hawaiian shirt.
Colin True
00:13:16.430 - 00:13:20.190
Yeah, Trader LLOYD Coming summer 2026.
Producer Dave
00:13:21.310 - 00:13:23.070
Yes, I want that. I want a tote bag.
Colin True
00:13:23.870 - 00:13:58.240
All right, first story that really get into this week, aside from stuff we talked about last week, per Kayak Angler mag, retailer Bass Pro Shops has acquired Hobie and will move production of Hobie products from Mexico to Bass Pro's Missouri based factory.
Since the last sale of the company in 2021, Hobie has endured a myriad of issues, let's say, with dealers facing backlogged orders and copious warranty claims. On top of that, there are new concerns with Bass Pro's ownership when it comes to how specialty retailers will be serviced. And that's putting.
There's a lot left out in that little synopsis there. I could talk for the next five minutes about the issues they faced.
Eoin Comerford
00:13:59.440 - 00:15:16.360
Can I give you my favorite Hobie story? So this was sort of the in between story with the new buyers. A different kayak brand was visiting a paddle sports dealer. Okay.
And they asked to use the wi fi and the guy's kind of sheep and asked for the password. And the guy's kind of sheep, as he said, well, the password is fuck Hobie. And so they're like, okay, we gotta get the backstory on that.
And basically the backstory was Hobie to hit some of their credit terms, they needed to realize revenue.
So they didn't tell the retailer and they just shipped them a truckload, literally a semi full of kayaks to show up on December 24, Christmas Eve, while they're in the throws. Yes. In the throes of trying to service their customers who are trying to get all the last minute shopping. It shows up, pull it.
They got to pull people off the shop floor to unload this, this semi complete disaster.
So anyway, I'm not going to name the retailer or whatever, but yeah, so that was kind of part like, if that gives you a sense of what folks were dealing with with the last version of Hobie, it wasn't great. You're not going to find a lot of people in the industry that.
Producer Dave
00:15:16.680 - 00:15:19.720
Oh, and but were they. Were they pedal powered guys?
Eoin Comerford
00:15:20.840 - 00:15:21.520
Yes, they were.
Producer Dave
00:15:21.520 - 00:15:22.360
I'm just checking.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:22.520 - 00:15:23.480
Okay. All right, good.
Colin True
00:15:23.480 - 00:15:34.660
There's so much there. I'm trying to picture the person at Hobie that's like, we got to make our number. It just ship them a bunch of kayaks. Then who did it?
How do they decide who to ship it to? Who's the biggest sucker who might actually pay the bill?
Eoin Comerford
00:15:34.820 - 00:15:35.300
All Right.
Colin True
00:15:35.380 - 00:15:41.340
Those guys. Great Senate. When should arrive? I don't care. Get it there before December 27th. We have to. We have to have it in.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:41.340 - 00:15:47.220
Boom. Exactly. It's got to. We got to get all of these kayaks delivered so we can recognize the revenue before the end of the year.
Colin True
00:15:47.940 - 00:15:58.300
This is like, this is the business version of the brand asshole. Dave. Like, what is this? Like the supply chain asshole? Like, I don't know what we call this. Like, it just sort of like who kicks in the door on.
This is like, no, no, guys, you cannot do this. You're going.
Producer Dave
00:15:58.540 - 00:15:59.180
This is the.
Colin True
00:15:59.420 - 00:15:59.980
Just the.
Eoin Comerford
00:16:00.780 - 00:16:01.220
Yeah.
Colin True
00:16:01.220 - 00:16:10.220
Wow. Well, I mean, that's kind of. That's getting into like, what I wanted to ask you, Owen, because, I mean, they're. It's an old brand.
I mean, they're like a first ballot hall of fame outdoor brand.
Eoin Comerford
00:16:10.620 - 00:16:11.020
Right.
Colin True
00:16:11.180 - 00:16:20.180
And it's been a rough few years, but it also doesn't sound like Bass Pro is maybe a natural owner for them. I mean, what's the motivation for Bass Pro in this?
Eoin Comerford
00:16:20.180 - 00:16:52.100
Oh, maybe this is. I think it's a home run for Bass Pro. I mean, they are. They are getting the fishing kayak brand.
The fishing kayak brand for I. I'm guessing a pretty nice discount because, you know, things are not great. I'm sure a lot less than whoever, whatever they paid for the brand, you know, four years ago. So they're getting this amazing brand.
Like Hobie hosted the Hobie Bass Open Series. Right. I mean, they are, they are the kayakers, the anglers kayak. Really. Right. I mean, they, they really.
Colin True
00:16:52.660 - 00:17:02.560
Some of the pushback from dealers. Like, they don't. They're worried about Bass Pro owning them from deal perspective. So is it just a. Like, screw the specialty dealers.
This is just a Bass Pro brand now? Is that how this is going to go? Probably.
Eoin Comerford
00:17:02.880 - 00:18:29.040
I think there's a number of ways that this could go. So Bass Pro may just say, hey, now it's just. It's basically a private brand for Bass Pro. You know, it's. It's under their. Their.
Their White River Marine Group. And you know, if you want to. To get Hobie, you're going to have to come to Bas Pro. That's one option. Right. In which case, obviously the.
The dealers are. Are. Are sort of fully out of now.
Well, in, in that, in that scenario, potentially the dealers, they're servicing the products and doing some other pieces, and maybe they're selling accessories or aftermarket accessories or whatever for the Hobie product. So it might work. I mean, Most of these dealers have been surviving without Hobie boats for two years anyway. So, like, I guess, what's the difference?
But. So that's sort of one option. I don't think. I don't think they'll go that way. You never know. That's possible.
The other one is sort of a tweener where they say, okay, we're going to have maybe more of a different line, maybe more of an opening price point line for Bass Pro and then a premium line for the Independent channel, which could be good or bad, depending on how those, those two are kind of positioned. Or they just say, no, no, no. Hobie is still Hobie, and we're selling to Bass Pro is one of our customers.
We're selling to the other folks as well, and we're going to fix all of the supply chain stuff and, you know, which would be great news for the independent specialty guys. So it really could go above a bunch of different ways, and they haven't really indicated which way at this point.
Colin True
00:18:29.440 - 00:18:37.680
So, Dave, with all those stories, I hand you the keys to the Hobie brand. They say all the distribute. What do you do? What do you do with this, Dave? How do you recover?
Producer Dave
00:18:38.960 - 00:19:02.190
Well, recover, I guess. What are you trying to recover? Like Owen said, segmentation would be the first kind of approach. They are a vessel brand now. They're a fishing brand.
That they have become this. And for those that don't know, Hobie started in the 50s, was one of the first to use like fiberglass, you.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:02.190 - 00:19:07.230
Know, into surfboards, then a catamaran branch. Right. I mean, that was that.
Producer Dave
00:19:07.390 - 00:19:15.150
Well, that wasn't even until the 60s. That wasn't even until the late 60s. Right. So for 15 years, they were this core surf brand in Southern California.
Colin True
00:19:15.870 - 00:19:16.430
It is.
Producer Dave
00:19:17.410 - 00:21:00.020
I don't know if it's settled law, rather, they invented the polyurethane skate wheel for skateboards in the mid-60s, early-60s, like, so they were such a part of board rider culture in Southern California. Like, like you said all the way back, this is the body gloves. And, you know, in that kind of.
That world and in the late 60s, made this shift to fiberglass, like the holes, like, okay, the catamaran, and really kind of blew the whole sale. And for the 70s and 80s were really a part of sail culture and bringing that up.
And of course that kind of, you know, rode the 80s and they became a licensing brand. And now you got sunglasses and all these other swimwear and just everything part of that world.
But then in the last 15 years, 20 years, this is where they've pivoted really into being a fishing first. You know, like I said, vessel brand, like you can kind of get everything. So that's what the. That's what Bass Pro is buying today. Is that right?
A piece. But if you say, what would you do with it? Yeah, cultivate that. Create some segmentation of their premium line and their vessels.
But the real kind of gem here, and we talk all about soft goods, is, man, this is a legitimate surf brand that you could develop on.
I mean, there's a whole category of surf birdwell to hang 10 to catons that all play off of this so that you could separate those out and create kind of a different type of brand for people to be reintroduced to, separate from this fishing work. Because fishing kind of looks a little bit like NASCAR in terms of the way it brands. Right. It's like more like aftermarket car parts. It's just.
It's not the same type of branding stories that you would tell in a heritage surf brand and a certain kind of products. But you could see how that maybe could live together and extend its customer off of that same authenticity.
Colin True
00:21:00.020 - 00:21:03.290
All right, Bass Pro, we heard him give Dave a call. He's got some ideas for you.
Producer Dave
00:21:03.850 - 00:21:05.050
Right. Come on.
Colin True
00:21:05.690 - 00:21:07.130
No, we're just going to make fishing boats.
Eoin Comerford
00:21:07.130 - 00:21:08.570
Yeah, yeah, we're just going to make.
Producer Dave
00:21:09.290 - 00:21:11.330
We're going to make pedal powered kayaks.
Eoin Comerford
00:21:11.330 - 00:21:13.850
D I think they're just going to make pedal power kayaks. Yeah.
Colin True
00:21:15.530 - 00:21:17.450
Right. Well, you. But you could do this though.
Producer Dave
00:21:18.170 - 00:21:19.610
But you could, but you could.
Colin True
00:21:20.250 - 00:21:21.770
All right, guys, you ready for the Lightning round?
Chris DeMakes
00:21:24.250 - 00:21:25.610
Lightning round.
Colin True
00:21:29.260 - 00:21:44.940
First up in the Lightning round, per retail dive, Kohl's expanding their private label FLX activewear line to include products specifically for kids. So, Owen, you're our business consigliere. Like, just how big is the untapped children's crossfit and yoga market? It's gotta be huge, right?
Eoin Comerford
00:21:45.340 - 00:22:37.630
Massive. Absolutely. I don't know. I think that there. There is always a market for little girls that want to look like mom and maybe little boys, too.
I don't know, but I don't know how huge it is. Also, the challenge with the kids market in general is it tends to be very price point and discount oriented.
We used to sell strollers back at Moose Trout. We just gave up. It's just like full price. You never sold a stroller. You went on sale. Oh, we sell a million strollers. I mean, it's just. Yeah.
And then the other challenge is that there's a lot of make that goes into these Things there's almost much make or labor that goes into a pair of, you know, 12 year old girls leggings as there go as that goes into a women's medium's leggings. Right. You know, yes, a little bit less material, but the price expectation is so much lower. So I don't know, it's a tough business. Yeah.
Colin True
00:22:38.030 - 00:22:43.950
So it's not just that. The upside is that, you know, the people making the stuff are also the fit models for the stuff themselves. Or.
Eoin Comerford
00:22:45.790 - 00:22:47.710
Okay, not touching that one, Colin.
Colin True
00:22:50.280 - 00:22:58.760
All right, Dave, next one's for you. Per Trailheads by Switchback footwear brand Keen has unveiled a new shoe called the Seek.
Would you like to take a guess at what kind of shoe this is, Dave?
Producer Dave
00:22:59.240 - 00:23:00.520
What are my choices, Colin?
Colin True
00:23:00.520 - 00:23:02.040
Trail running. That's it?
Producer Dave
00:23:02.680 - 00:23:04.120
Only just trail running?
Colin True
00:23:04.760 - 00:23:05.879
What else would you make?
Producer Dave
00:23:07.080 - 00:23:08.600
I'm gonna choose trail running.
Colin True
00:23:08.840 - 00:23:10.520
Big winner here on the rock fight today.
Producer Dave
00:23:10.520 - 00:23:16.100
Yeah, right, right. I am always gonna support somebody who sees a crowded opportunity.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:16.170 - 00:23:16.650
Opportunity.
Producer Dave
00:23:16.650 - 00:23:20.450
Who sharpens those elbows and says, you know what? There is room for me too.
Colin True
00:23:20.450 - 00:23:21.690
It's the mosh pit approach.
Producer Dave
00:23:21.850 - 00:24:19.310
All kidding aside, I have looked at the shoe, looked at the way they've been marketing it for a while and actually, I gotta say, I think this is right on for Keen. I just, I think they're, their product fits the profile.
They've been super clear and clean in their language and their points of how they're marketing.
It's very process driven, which is what you kind of expect from Keen, but they're leaning into the wider toe box, which is definitely kind of the trend du jour. It's still feature benefit driven in terms of the rationale. Right. But that's always a great opening play.
My question with Keane is, well, what are you gonna do next? And will you ever move to aspiration, which is more emotional than just the literal kind of rational piece to that. But that's that next play.
But I have to say, just from what I've seen overall, it's a really solid hitting all of the. Hitting all of the marks in your go to market of the new technology in their brand.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:19.790 - 00:24:34.270
I totally agree with Dave. I think, you know, they made the Keen tree running shoe, they didn't make a trail running shoe. So that's right. That was the key.
Like if they had come out with a super shoe with carbon fiber, yada, yada and all the stuff, right. I'd be like, come on, Keen. No.
Colin True
00:24:34.540 - 00:24:42.100
You think they think they did wear testing at the trails around the Costco. You think that's where they did the testing for it. Or that's a bunch of dads out there.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:42.100 - 00:24:43.260
Bunch of dads. Yes.
Colin True
00:24:43.340 - 00:24:45.740
Bunch of toddlers and strollers. Hey, these are great.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:46.620 - 00:24:49.100
They do come with a free pair of cargo shorts, in fairness.
Colin True
00:24:50.700 - 00:25:11.250
All right, last one, Dave. Last week we said that arc' Teryx would weather the PR hit from their Himalayan fireworks display without any real issue.
It appears it's already over as Wells Fargo has upgraded Amor stock this past week, indicating there's no real concern with the public response to their mountain art installation. I mean, what should other brands take away from this, Dave? That detonations lead to explosive sales growth?
Producer Dave
00:25:11.410 - 00:25:18.610
Deny, deny, deny, ignore, deny. That's what we've learned here. And I'm pretty sure they've followed along.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:19.090 - 00:25:24.730
And blame the Chinese team. That's right. That's actually what we've learned, to me is.
Producer Dave
00:25:24.730 - 00:25:25.250
That's right.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:25.250 - 00:25:44.860
The biggest takeaway actually is it really helps to have Chinese ownership who are friendly with the CCP and who can censor social media. I guarantee you that if this had been a US or European owned brand, this thing would be full throttle shit show right now all over China, you know?
Yeah. So.
Producer Dave
00:25:44.940 - 00:25:48.340
Well, if that had been the case, they wouldn't have gotten the permits to do it in the first place.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:48.340 - 00:25:48.940
There you go.
Colin True
00:25:49.500 - 00:26:32.920
The world, guys. All right, all right, let's take a quick break to hear from some sponsors and then we come back. We're going to get into the news from rei.
All right, Winter's unpredictable, guys. Mild one week, freezing the next.
You know, I grew up in the mid Atlantic and every inch of snow was exciting until it melted into a soupy mess and then make things worse, it would refreeze in the driveway, making it impossible to walk across. Going outside became its own adventure, and that includes choosing what to wear.
And that's why people have trusted Fjallraven jackets for more than 50 years. Born and tested in Sweden, they're made to handle everything from everyday cold to true arctic extremes. The philosophy symbol simple build.
Outerwear that performs, protects and lasts. Oh, and I know you were wearing Fjallraven on the golf course last week. Not arctic conditions, but still it performed.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:32.920 - 00:26:36.600
Yeah, well, it was a lovely insulated vest for those 50 degree mornings.
Producer Dave
00:26:37.640 - 00:26:43.640
Well, to be fair, we've seen Owen golf and there's a lot of hiking involved, so I think that probably was a good call.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:43.720 - 00:26:46.920
A lot of time in the. A lot of time is spent in the woods.
Producer Dave
00:26:47.800 - 00:26:49.240
That's right, the back country.
Colin True
00:26:50.470 - 00:27:12.950
Oh, there's my Ball.
From the cab Gore Tex jacket to the expedition pack down hoodie, you'll find something to suit the winter conditions you know are on the way for your neck of the woods. And retailers want to see the best winter jackets you should be carrying in your shop.
Schedule an appointment with Fjallraven at GOA Connect in Kansas City this November. The rest of you, check out fjallraven.com adventurous calling. Are you ready to answer?
Chris DeMakes
00:27:13.510 - 00:27:13.790
No.
Colin True
00:27:13.790 - 00:27:16.550
I'm like asking you guys, are you ready to take this call? Adventure's calling.
Eoin Comerford
00:27:17.020 - 00:27:20.700
Yes. Hello? Hello?
Colin True
00:27:21.020 - 00:27:55.520
Coming early in November, Lemz is dropping a bold new lineup of minimalist boots and trail shoes. Built to go wherever the season takes you. Meet your new trail companions, the Trail Thrasher and the Trailblazer Mid.
Engineered with tough, full rubber outsoles for serious grip and designed with an urban edge, they're made to move seamlessly from rugged backcountry treks to city streets. And these are just two of the many new styles hitting the lineup soon. Get ready to explore more. And also retailers again.
I hope you're listening, retailers. Be sure to go see the Lem's team when they exhibit at Goa's Discovery Marketplace at the Connect show in Kansas City this November.
Producer Dave
00:27:56.160 - 00:27:57.520
What is an urban edge?
Eoin Comerford
00:27:57.520 - 00:28:01.120
That's the curb you hit when you fall on the extra driveway.
Colin True
00:28:01.600 - 00:28:03.120
That's right, a curb.
Producer Dave
00:28:03.120 - 00:28:03.440
Yeah.
Colin True
00:28:03.440 - 00:28:36.250
Ah, the urban edge got me right. All right, guys. A few weeks ago we learned that mosquitoes kill more humans every year than any other animal.
Unlike the Dalai Lama once said, if you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito. But I doubt the Dalai Lama was sleeping in the wilder pant from Royal Robins.
Because the Wilderpant, like everything in Royal's MPT collection, has mosquito protection technology. Relying on protection through construction. MPT is the chemical free solution to mosquito free days in the outdoors.
Oh, and while you were golfing, how was the mosquito situation? A little late in the season, but were they around?
Eoin Comerford
00:28:36.490 - 00:28:43.880
I know I was on an island off the coast of of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. So it, no, it wasn't bad. I think I did get one bite though, in fairness.
Colin True
00:28:43.880 - 00:28:55.480
To shop the entire MPT collection for Royal Robins, head to royalrobbins.com and retailers. Again, three times the charm. Make sure you schedule an appointment with Royal Robbins at GOA Connect in Kansas City this November.
Eoin Comerford
00:28:56.040 - 00:28:57.480
We'll be there, right?
Colin True
00:28:57.720 - 00:28:58.360
We will be there.
Eoin Comerford
00:28:58.360 - 00:28:59.000
We will be there.
Colin True
00:28:59.000 - 00:29:01.160
So yeah, schedule an appointment with Colin and Owen.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:01.320 - 00:29:02.440
Absolutely. Say hi.
Colin True
00:29:03.320 - 00:30:57.200
Don't let our Big time production value and celebrity names fool you. Looking at you, producer Dave. But Rockvite LLC is a small business and growing brand.
And even though we have our own consigliere, he advises on other matters. We've got to consult a lawyer every now and then on the legal structures that every business needs.
But for a small business like ours, the cost to hire general counsel or pay a retainer is a non starter. So what's an outdoorsy founder to do? I mean, come on, we're not flashing that outside money. Enter Conatus Council.
They can help your business with fractional general counsel and legal services. From strategy consulting to advocacy and government affairs to real world implementation for outdoor recreation industry businesses.
Forest over at Kannadas Council has helped Rock Fight navigate some of these areas. And let me tell you, knowing someone has your back means you can focus on running your business.
I mean, he had at least three edits to this read to quote, unquote, protect us from ourselves. I mean, that's what I'm talking about. Forest Care cares just as much about the outdoors and the outdoor industry as our listeners. So, got questions?
Conatuscouncil.com to get in touch with Forest. The first six hours are free. Wait, what? What? I can't say that. Oh, initial consultations are free. Okay, fine. All right, guys.
A lot happened last week, but besides the outdoor retailer news, the biggest story was REI's announcement of a new strategic plan they're calling Peak 28. Via a letter from CEO Mary Beth Lawton.
The announcement attempts to lay out the path the co op will be taking over the next three years, including four strategic pillars that will guide their actions. Those pillars are, number one, connected, focused and trailblazing culture. Number two, authentic culturally leading assortment.
Number three, elevated service and experience. Number four, reinvented membership. I think the announcement of this plan has led to some confusion.
Maybe the rather true understanding of REI's plan for the next three years. We'll talk about that in a second. But to start off with Owen, you know, what was your initial response to Peak 28?
Eoin Comerford
00:30:58.080 - 00:33:01.380
Well, ultimately, you know, this plan has to get REI back to profitability. That's the whole deal here. And if you look at the financials and dig in the way I have, really, their biggest P and L issues are twofold.
One is very high payroll. So their Payroll ballooned from 20% of revenue in 2019 pre Covid to 25%. Okay, so that's a huge number. 5% of revenue Delta there.
So payroll is a big issue. The second one is margins Margins dropped from over 45% in 2019 to 40.4% in 2024.
So between those two things, you've got almost 10% of revenue that went away. And whatever this thing is, whatever this plan ultimately turns out to be, has to solve for those things.
And I think it's really interesting that in the memoir to employees, MB said that they're going to need to make tough choices to do this. And, you know, I mean, prioritization is part of any kind of planning process. But I really do think that there are going to be tough choices here.
Like what, you know, how are, how are we going to get here on the employee side? I think some of the tough choices are going to be about, like, we're talking about doing all these great things.
And if you read the objectives, it's hard to disagree with them being good objectives to have. But it's like, okay, how do you do all these things?
How do, like, how do we solve for the payroll issue and add all these experiences and add all this new level of service and add all those other things, you know, tricky, right?
And then, you know, how do we offer all of the priced right assortment and do all the rest of the stuff and a more differentiated membership experience and solve for the gross margin issue, for example, is part of this whole new and imagined membership. Does the dividend change or go away as part of this? Because it's not really affordable in the new world.
Colin True
00:33:02.100 - 00:33:14.720
So is this kind of a conscious. Like, we're going to be intentionally vague while kind of establish, kind of tipping our hands towards.
There's some, there's some pretty wholesale changes coming to rei coming down the road is kind of what. Is that how you're reading this?
Eoin Comerford
00:33:14.720 - 00:33:59.050
I think so.
And I think, I think most people would agree that there have to be wholesale changes that structurally things have to change to get to a better place.
The other challenge, and I think this, what this is the opening salvo to, is you have to get the green vests on board and you have to get the members on board that this is the way that we're going to go and that ultimately it's the right answer for the co op long term. So I think putting the, the, the objectives at first, which are all, you know, things you can kind of get behind, is, is maybe like the step one.
It's the details, the devil in the details, then of like, okay, well, okay, what's actually. What. What are those tough choices? And is everybody going to be on board with those tough choices?
Colin True
00:34:00.090 - 00:34:05.210
All right, do you Want to go through each of these objectives and kind of give us your thoughts on them and see if we can kind of figure out what they're trying to say here.
Eoin Comerford
00:34:05.210 - 00:36:15.100
Sure. So let's start with the first, which is connected, focused and trailbl.
So I think some of the tough choices are, okay, what roles need to change, what roles are going to be added and more importantly, what roles are going to be eliminated to become this high performing culture as the objective says. Then also this talk about being a purpose led organization. Okay, what purposes are we talking?
Public lands, which I think that they've come out more strongly of late, DEI sustainability. So what are those elements and are we going to have to pick and choose there to have a bigger tent or a smaller tent, et cetera.
So those would be the first two, the authentic, culturally leading assortment. There's a lot of talk about their target customer. Okay, well, who is that target customer? Again, you got to make choices there.
Are you going to focus on the core and that's who you're going to be? Sort of old school, rei, backpack, climb, camp, whatever? Or is our target customer lifestyle, casual, et cetera?
Are we going to broaden that definition? And then when you do that, okay, which brands and categories are going to change? You've only got, whatever it is, 25,000 square feet in a store.
Something's got to give. Right. If you're going to go more after run, you're going to go less after hike. Right.
So those things are going to be tough decisions in terms of open to buy. Some brands may no longer be part of rei. And then the other piece is private label.
If we're going to do all these things, if we're going to deliver this price right trend, right assortment as it was called, is that really that the REI private brand is going to be priced right Trend. Right. And then we're going to basically fill that with these other brands.
So these are all the kind of the big, the big issues from an assortment perspective. Then we get into elevated service and experience again. Okay, how do we elevate service?
How do we elevate experience when we really have to tackle payroll? And then finally this whole reinvented membership thing. Okay, we're going to have all of these highly differentiated offerings.
How do we add those without adding a whole bunch of cost? Does it mean actually changing the rebate? And so, yeah, a lot on the table here.
Colin True
00:36:15.340 - 00:36:27.040
Dave, before I move into the next piece here, you and I had talked about this off Mike, when it comes to the experience and the service piece of it. They made a pretty big move recently to kind of. That affected a lot of that.
Producer Dave
00:36:27.200 - 00:37:17.660
Yeah, well, like Owen said, it's the details in all of these. You can't really disagree with any of these. And more service and experiences. Yeah, that's great.
However, they just did shed that entire sector of their company. So that's a lot of institutional knowledge that has just been drifted away. And so how are you going to bring that back into it?
You reinvented membership. Love that. And, you know, Owen focused on the dividend.
But something that they kind of helped pioneer in the sense of this kind of membership aspect in retail is now, I mean, so it's. Is there just a new day of what that means with subscription models and the kind of the.
The customer focus and building that core, that VIP aspect and brand experiences? There's so much that that could start to take on that really, you know, that gets. That gets to that, that, that new. That new membership.
Colin True
00:37:17.660 - 00:37:48.770
But is for maybe for both of you. I mean, is there an upside to talking about this now? Like, it seems there's. Are they up against some meeting or deadline?
I think it's fair to say this left us wanting more. I mean, even, like the Gear Junkies newsletter this week said it was kind of a cryptic release. A lot of people kind of wondering.
There's a lot of questions that have come out of this. So, I mean, I understand the motivation, especially the way Owen.
You described it in your color there, Dave, but I'm not going to say it is half baked, but it feels a little like we want more. Like, what do you mean here? There's a lot of questions, more than answers coming out of this to keep.
Eoin Comerford
00:37:48.770 - 00:38:22.620
Our cake metaphors going here. I don't know, the cake is half baked, but all we're seeing is the frosting on top. Right? That's all we're seeing.
We don't know what went into the cake. We don't know what the ingredients are. We don't know anything about it. It could be a brick under all that frosting. We have no idea.
So, yeah, I think that's the bigger question. But by the same token, I wouldn't expect them to lay out, oh, this is what all this means. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
It makes sense from a communication strategy to say, okay, well, let's get the stuff out there that people can kind of get behind, and then changes are.
Colin True
00:38:22.620 - 00:38:24.580
Coming, things are going to happen, and.
Eoin Comerford
00:38:24.580 - 00:38:27.380
Then we follow up with what that actually means. Yeah.
Colin True
00:38:27.540 - 00:39:08.710
All right. Well, for our listeners, the Rock Fight. We've been in touch with Rei. We're trying to book MB to come on the show and talk about Peak 28. We'll see.
Rei is considering it. We'll see how it goes. We hope we can welcome her on the show to kind of offer some of that color. Maybe when they're ready to do so.
Also, while we're in the REI world, they announced this week several new board members to fill three vacancies after elections earlier this year. Those names were Eric Sprunk, who's formerly of Nike, John Vandemore from Skechers, and Lisa. Is it Bouget? I'm going to assume. Buji.
I'm sorry, Lisa, if I'm messing up your name. Bougie, a partner from an early stage VC fund that specializes in climate tech. All three of them are joining REI's board.
Owen, can you glean anything from maybe the go forward strategy for REI from these appointments?
Eoin Comerford
00:39:08.790 - 00:39:28.530
I mean, it's really more of the same in terms of whether it's overall executive team leadership or board leadership. You know, it's the well trodden ground of ex Nike execs and cpg folks. You know, it's.
This isn't an outdoor focused team, but yeah, I guess it's more of the same.
Colin True
00:39:28.850 - 00:40:10.810
All right, well, like I said, hopefully we can bring MB on the show to talk about us more. And regardless of that, we'll make sure we weigh in on anything else new that comes out of rei.
If you want your gear grown in a garage, go to Garage Grown Gear. Friend of the pod, Lloyd Vogel and Garage Growing Gear. Been with the Rock Fight for a long time. We love having them here.
And now they are the presenting sponsor of the Parting Shot. All right, guys, part time for the Parting Shot. Pretty short one today.
I just want to say congrats to former Rock Fight guest Cassie Abel of Wild Rye for the launch of Wild Rye's new outerwear line.
Now, we don't want to make a habit of calling out line extensions or congratulating brands on launching new products here on the Rock Fight, but if you've been paying attention, especially if they're not.
Eoin Comerford
00:40:10.810 - 00:40:12.530
Gonna pay us to do it.
Colin True
00:40:13.010 - 00:40:19.090
Good point. If you wanna advertise a show, man, we will talk about you all day long. Come on board. Water's warm.
Producer Dave
00:40:19.810 - 00:40:22.010
Or if you introduce a trail running shoe.
Eoin Comerford
00:40:22.010 - 00:40:23.730
Right, right. Yeah, true, true, true.
Colin True
00:40:23.730 - 00:40:25.650
Now, now the line's getting long because.
Producer Dave
00:40:26.850 - 00:40:29.010
Well, gotta get in line sometime.
Colin True
00:40:29.010 - 00:41:48.080
But look, if you've been paying attention to way things have unfolded this year and the impact that the tariff situation has had on brands like Wild Rye, then you have a small sense of how big of a lift it was for Wild Ride to launch their outerwear line. And I just want to highlight it here and say, say congrats.
And it was actually a big week for women led founders in the outdoor industry as in addition to the good news for Cassie and Wild Rye, Gigi and the team at NARA opened a pop up shop on Pearl street in Boulder. And then last week Title 9 held their annual pitch fest where they bring together women founders to pitch their brands and land a Title 9 PO gear.
Abbey herself, Shantae Saliba was at Pitch Fest and we'll be coming on the Rock Fight to talk about that in the next couple of weeks. So congrats to all of them and it's a good reminder that, you know, there are good things happening in the outdoor industry. Right.
It is still an inspirational segment that we talk about here, even if we get in the weeds and some of the things that make us raise an eyebrow. But I thought that was, it was nice to get some good news from these folks. All right, everybody, that's the show for today. We want your emails.
Send them to myrockfightmail.com the Rock Fight is a product of Rock Fight LLC. Our episode today produced by producer Dave with art direction provided by Sarah Gensert for Owen Comerford, I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening.
Back again to take us out. He can't be stopped. It's Chris Demaikz to sing the Rock Fight Fight song and we'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:41:48.160 - 00:42:49.860
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock flight. Rock fight. Rock Fight. Rock fl.
Welcome to the ride bike where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is the way we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock flight Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
