Rutabaga’s Last Paddle: Another Outdoor Retailer Closes Shop
- colin7931
- Sep 22
- 36 min read
Today on The Rock Fight, Colin, Eoin, and Producer Dave are joined by Darren Bush, longtime owner of Rutabaga Paddle Sports in Madison, WI, to talk about his decision to close one of the most beloved specialty outdoor retailers in the U.S.
Here is the full rundown for today's episode:
VF sells Dickies for $600m 8 years after acquiring the 103 year old workwear brand for $820m. How does this benefit VF and what does it mean for the outdoor industry? (03:10)
Is an increase in participation driving fresh M&A actitivity? Capstone Partners says that is. The Rock Fight's consigliere weighs in. (11:25)
Support this weeks partners of The Rock Fight! Ibex, Fjallraven, Royal Robbins, Lems Shoes, and Conatus Counsel! (22:12)
The Monday Boys are then joined by Darren Bush to talk about the following topics (26:22):
Why Darren is closing Rutabaga after more than 25 years of ownership.
How his personal journey—from epidemiologist to retailer to chaplain—shaped his outlook.
The state of specialty retail, from margins to customer service.
Why experiential opportunities like paddling schools and Canoecopia still matter.
The challenges of succession planning and selling independent shops.
What the closures of Rutabaga, Summit Hut, and Next Adventure say about the industry.
Darren’s proudest moments and the thousands of hugs he’s received from grateful paddlers.
Finally for The Parting Shot, Colin thinks the outdoor industry may be a little too concerned with that 'seat at the table' and could stand to be a little louder in the face of recent events. (43:40)
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Episode Transcript:
Producer Dave
00:00:02.080 - 00:00:39.870
This just in. Breaking news from the Rock Fight.
A group of San Francisco based tech investors have announced they are launching a subscription based publishing ecosystem of adult themed outdoor magazines. Gear Hunky plus will debut this spring with an orgy of coverage of all things uncovered outside.
The first issue will feature Alexi Handhold's attempt at the first clothing free solo of El Capitan in Yosemite, complete with centerfold listicles and affiliate links.
Gearhunky plus glossy full color print editions harken back to a day when people had to pay for their adult outdoor content or find it in the woods behind their house like everyone else.
Colin True
00:00:40.910 - 00:01:40.770
While that may not be true, you know what is true? Ibex Merino is as home in your shop as duct tape on Denali.
We're talking authentic heritage, real sustainability, privately owned and of course, premium performance that has become legendary.
From everyday essentials like the goatee to expedition ready pieces like the mammoth hoodie, Ibex has a premium merino lair ready to outfit any of your customers. Schedule some time with their team at GEOA Connect in Kansas City this November.
You know, maybe it's time to make a little room for the goat in your store. Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slays sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True and joining me today here to promote their new running shoe called the Creative Consigliere, it's Owen Comerford and producer Dave.
Congratulations guys. You're getting into the game.
Producer Dave
00:01:41.170 - 00:01:42.970
Yeah, I'm always up for a good mashup.
Eoin Comerford
00:01:42.970 - 00:01:43.890
Absolutely.
Colin True
00:01:43.890 - 00:01:51.570
Yes, yes. Very excited about that. Everyone's getting running shoes. You may as well start making them on your own instead of buying other people's nails.
That's, that's, that's what we're going to do.
Eoin Comerford
00:01:52.690 - 00:02:02.210
It's a maximalist barefoot crossover combo, gravel slash, treadmill situation.
Colin True
00:02:03.010 - 00:02:05.330
Just, just put it all like it's the kitchen sink.
Producer Dave
00:02:07.330 - 00:02:07.810
Nice.
Colin True
00:02:09.010 - 00:02:39.740
All right, well, today we are going to be talking about, you know, some outdoor retail stuff. We'll be talking about a bunch of other topics come out of the industry the last week. But first, some programming reminders.
We never want you to miss an episode of the Rock Fight, so please click follow on the podcast app you're using right now. Be sure to also follow Open Container and Gear Abby, the other podcast here on the Rock Fight Podcast Network.
And also if you want to get more from the Rock Fight, head to rockflight co to send. Sign up for our sort of weekly, semi weekly newsletter. I'M going to get around to the next one pretty soon here, guys.
Producer Dave
00:02:39.740 - 00:02:42.900
Just sign up sometimes often. Sometimes sometimes often.
Colin True
00:02:43.060 - 00:03:49.420
Maybe. Maybe there'll be a week where there'll be two. We don't know. Keep you on your toes.
And then lastly, reach out to the show by sending us an email@myrockfightgmail.com. you can find us on LinkedIn, you can find us on Instagram. On Instagram. We are Rock Stockfight company. Follow along, send us a message.
We want to hear from you.
Like I said coming up later in this episode, the three of us sit down with the owner of Rutabaga Paddlesports, Darren Busch to talk about his decision to close one of the more notable Goa outdoor retailers in the U.S. but first, let's check in on a few stories to come out of the industry over the past week.
And the big story of the week really was, per SGB, was VF's decision to sell off the 103-year-old workwear brand Dickies for $600 million in cash to Blue Star alliance, which is a New York based brand. VF had acquired Dickies back in 2017 for $820 million.
And it looks as if the move was made to allow VF to refocus on its big three Timberland, the north facing vans, and on outdoor in general. So, oh, and last year VF punted on Supreme. This year it's Dickey's.
What did these moves say about where VF's priorities lie as they build towards the future?
Eoin Comerford
00:03:50.220 - 00:03:53.980
Well, really the priorities lie in paying down their debt, quite frankly.
Colin True
00:03:55.260 - 00:03:56.700
Good fiscal responsibility.
Eoin Comerford
00:03:56.860 - 00:04:30.990
Well, yeah, I mean, they took on a bunch of debt to buy supreme and Dickies, among other brands. But then times get a little bit tough in terms of profitability or ebitda, their earnings. Right. To service that debt.
And so now they've basically become what's called over leveraged. So in other words, they're at least from the banker's perspective, they don't have enough profit to cover the debt that they have. Or ideally. Right.
And that over leveraged situation actually has caused credit rating agencies like Moody's to downgrade their debt.
Darren Bush
00:04:31.060 - 00:04:31.380
Debt.
Eoin Comerford
00:04:31.380 - 00:06:09.390
Okay, so now they've been downgraded like late last year to speculative grade, which is a nice way of saying junk status. And then actually a couple of days before the Stickies deal was announced, they got downgraded even further. So it's tough.
And the combination of that downgrade combined with pretty high interest rates currently means that it's really pretty expensive for VF Corp. To refinance its debt. And it actually has $588 million worth of notes that were maturing early next year.
And so, you know, just by magic here, they're getting 600 million which will cover those notes that are maturing.
So it really does get them out of a little bit of a pickle there and gets them into, into a bit of a better, you know, I guess more solid footing from, from a, a debt perspective. But that said, though you listen to them, it was actually a bit of a surprise.
They, they hadn't, they hadn't necessarily been actively shopping Dickies that, you know, from, from commentary from the, the, the CEO of VF Bluestar actually kind of showed up with an offer and they said, oh, well, this is pretty good.
And I actually believe him because you wouldn't have moved this brand, which is a iconic Fort Worth brand, from Fort Worth, Texas to the vans headquarters and just complete that move in May and then turn around and basically sell them three months later.
Colin True
00:06:09.790 - 00:06:11.950
Yeah, so this one came out of left field, basically.
Eoin Comerford
00:06:12.350 - 00:07:00.050
Yeah. And it's going to be a little bit messy. Right, because now they are.
You've got this Dickies group and you got a feel for these poor Dickies employees. Right. That have just been absolutely dragged all over the place. Right. I mean they were.
Because actually the, the, the, the Fort Worth, they had just moved into a new headquarters in Fort Worth in early 24 that they had spent four and a half million dollars. Then they uproot moved to California, although apparently most people didn't move with them. They lost over 100 people as part of that move.
Maybe that was part of the plan. They get to California and now they're being sold.
So I would think they may have to move again because it doesn't really make sense for them to share a campus with one of the F brands brands. So the whole thing is. Yeah. Interesting.
Producer Dave
00:07:00.130 - 00:07:27.870
Well, it's an interesting ownership for poor Dickies as well. I mean, they've made the move to fashion a long time ago, but they still have this work business piece of that.
And that definitely seems like a big outlier kind of to the new portfolio that includes Off White Scotch and Soda, Hurley justice, you know, brands like that. Now under that portfolio, it's, it's like half their business seems to fit.
Eoin Comerford
00:07:28.510 - 00:08:09.970
But see which.
Because I think one of the challenges that VF had was, you know, are we purely a workwear brand that just kind of shows up in streetwear or are we going to, are we leveraging our workwear Heritage and really want to, you know, lean into streetwear and kind of be cool. And this, this brand and I, in talking to some people, it feels like they somehow kind of fell in the middle.
So with this go forward with Blue Star alliance, which way are they going to go? Are they going to just say, okay, let's go back to the workwear thing, let's kind of milk that and resolidify that base?
Or are they thinking more on the Hurley line? Like, no, no, no. This is basically sort of a workwear fashion approach and we're going down that path.
Producer Dave
00:08:10.450 - 00:08:14.050
That's what I would get. Based on their other brands that just would make the most sense.
Colin True
00:08:14.210 - 00:08:21.670
So from the VF perspective, what can we deduce from this decision that will apply to the broader industry? Like what it seem a new spending.
Eoin Comerford
00:08:21.670 - 00:08:23.150
Spree call and they're out of debt.
Producer Dave
00:08:23.150 - 00:08:25.630
This is like, let's go, let's go build it up again.
Colin True
00:08:25.710 - 00:08:26.990
I don't know if that's the case.
Eoin Comerford
00:08:27.550 - 00:08:40.430
No. So, so this, this basically is going to get their debt level down from like four and a half billion to like four billion roughly. So there's still a.
Colin True
00:08:40.430 - 00:08:42.910
Credit cards don't seem like such a problem right now. I'm being.
Eoin Comerford
00:08:43.310 - 00:09:10.920
Yeah. So there is still quite a bit of debt. I really don't see VF going on another spending spree anytime soon.
And I think actually they're pleased with the stable of brands that they have right now. Obviously Vans needs to turn around and they're working hard on that. North face is showing some strength, I think, which is great for them.
Timberland, the 6 inch boot is back again.
Colin True
00:09:11.720 - 00:09:16.040
Again. That's why the Vans is right around the corner.
Eoin Comerford
00:09:16.440 - 00:09:53.720
Exactly. And then I think. But the other one, the one I think that they're really looking to lean into is, is Altra Ultra. Is Altra is their entree into.
We've talked about it. The biggest category that's growing in outdoor, which is running.
And you know, they obviously a very well respected brand, lots of, you know, trail running cred behind them. Can they leverage that to move beyond being a trail runner or a, you know, distance hiking shoe and become more part of sneaker culture?
I think they would love that if that were, if that were the outcome.
Colin True
00:09:54.430 - 00:10:01.470
Now it makes sense. They have a new brand campaign out. I mean, it's just all the stuff we've been talking about with running.
Obviously you guys launching your own running shoe. You know, you've done the market recently.
Eoin Comerford
00:10:01.470 - 00:10:02.190
Oh, absolutely.
Colin True
00:10:03.470 - 00:10:17.150
But no. And you sent that over earlier this week. You're like, wow, VF really leaning into Ultra.
And it's like, well, for everything we've been saying, sure, it's their only sort of run specific brand. Other, other cat. Other brands have dabble. But that is, that's their running brand. Right. So that makes a lot of sense that that's where that would go.
Eoin Comerford
00:10:17.230 - 00:10:17.710
Yeah.
Colin True
00:10:18.510 - 00:10:25.470
I imagine there's some buyers remorse or some regret with the, the Contour Helly Hansen spin out if they're sort of doubling down on outdoor at this point too.
Eoin Comerford
00:10:26.280 - 00:11:26.610
Well, I don't think that there's regret from the perspective of Contour ended up buying heli. It's more around the fact that Contour was the not sexy. Right.
Wrangler Jeans, Lee Jeans, the not sexy cash cow of the F Corp. And really selling Contour actually in some ways led to their current problems because they didn't have all the cash to service the debt that they had on the books. So. So I think that's the regret.
You know, I think actually if you talk to VF executives, they like the stable of brands that they have and they like now especially having Offloaded supreme and Dickies, they like the fact that they can really focus on outdoor and outdoor fashion and that, that whole arena and have this, you know, sort of shared services model or even, you know, around things like branding and everything around that outdoor customer and being able to service them from every, every different angle as opposed to like, oh no, we're over here, we're in workwear, we're in street, we're in this, we're in that. No, no, no, we are outdoor.
Colin True
00:11:26.770 - 00:11:55.120
Well, so next up we also have, and it's also per SGB this week, a new report by Capstone Partners says that the continued rise in the popularity of outdoor recreation is equally fueling a rise in growth in the outdoor recreation market.
With Capstone stating, quote, that as more individuals seek nature based experiences, sector operators have actively worked to capture this expanding consumer base. End quote. Owen, do you agree that the rising participation is what's driving the increase in deal volume here?
Eoin Comerford
00:11:55.280 - 00:11:55.840
Not really.
Colin True
00:11:57.840 - 00:11:58.560
That's a good story.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:58.640 - 00:13:30.090
It makes for a nice headline, but I think it's kind of bullshit because if you look at it right, so yes, obviously the number of transactions are up, but actually the sale prices are down because.
So in the deal market we talk about EBITDA multiples, which basically means if you look at the amount of profit, what, what multiple of that are things selling at? So right now it's at 8.7. So 8.7 times EBITDA is the average sale price. Well, during the go go days of COVID into 21, it was at 12.1. Right.
So record multiples and then even pre Covid it was around 9.9, 10. So we've got depressed multiples, which does not mean that we're in this incredible seller's market.
I think what we're seeing is yes, there are some good deals out there, premium deals like Contour Helly Hansen coats buying ortholite, et cetera. And those are what I would call full price premium deals. But there's a lot of bargain shopping happening too. Right.
Whether that's you look at big five distressed deals, backcountry and then even backcountry buying level nine. These are distressed deals that are out there that are pulling down multiples. So it's a combination of factors of yes, there's outdoor participation.
It's still a good market and could generate cash. But there are also a lot of distressed deals out there that are now looking to, to find new owners.
Colin True
00:13:30.490 - 00:13:42.950
So why even say that though, by Capstone, is it just a nice easy headline to be like, ah, participation's up. So we're going to, you know, and these, some of these deals have been pretty good. So we, we expect to see this continue.
I mean, like what, what's the, why do you even make that correlation?
Eoin Comerford
00:13:44.310 - 00:13:54.870
It's pr, quite frankly. It's the folks at Capstone wanting to be front and center when people are talking about M and A so they can get their next deal.
Colin True
00:13:55.910 - 00:14:07.190
Well, there's also a lot of moving parts right now and a lot of these deals given what's happening with tariffs. But if you try to look out five or so years from now, I mean, what do you think on this front? What can we expect as the industry expands?
Eoin Comerford
00:14:09.520 - 00:15:57.480
Well, absent a recession, I would hope for steady growth. I don't see the outdoor industry exploding at an overall industry level. In the 10 to 15% a year growth.
If we can manage 3 to 5%, I think we'll be good.
I'm hoping we'll see more emerging brands, add a little bit more excitement to the channel, and I feel we're potentially getting there a little bit of a push.
I think the biggest change that we're seeing today and that we will continue to see over the next five years is the casualization of outdoor, both from a product perspective, a brand perspective and a retail perspective, where the days of, oh, let's go into my local gear shop and get totally outfitted for a backpacking trip, a camping trip, a mountaineering trip. Those days to me are gone. Right. In a world of, you know, aging. Core, core participation in a world of the Amazon, of everything. Right.
It's the outdoor. The role of the outdoor gear shop is changing and it is really more about an entree to the outdoors, a welcoming entree.
So it's a little bit more lifestyle, more casual. It's accessories, it's this, it's that. And so I think that's going to be the biggest change that we'll see.
Which then probably points to the fact that the old guard outdoor gear stores like the, you know, the, the Summit Huts, the Next Adventures, the Midwest Mountaineerings, those may not, you know, well, obviously we're seeing. They're not, they're not hanging around right now. And then obviously the latest one being, being being Rutabaga today.
Colin True
00:15:57.960 - 00:16:39.000
Yeah, great segue, right. Because you know, that increase in potential mergers, acquisitions. I don't know.
It's an interesting segue into our main topic based on the comments you just made. Right. Because another notable outdoor retailer, Rutabaga Paddle Sports, has announced they're going to be closing this year.
Joining, as you mentioned, Next Adventure and Summit Hunt. We're going to be getting into our conversation with Rutabaga owner Darren Bush in a minute. Let's talk about this.
Let's just start actually with this. So we made a bunch of predictions at the beginning of the year and we've mentioned often like we had no idea how much we'd end up talking about.
Tariffs over the last few months was not on our, you know, on our radar at all. I don't think anyone had the closing of three notable Goa accounts on their bingo card to start 2025. I mean, are you surprised, Owen?
We're at number three now on the year.
Eoin Comerford
00:16:39.240 - 00:17:16.810
I'm not surprised that we're seeing some closures. I'm just surprised that at the iconic level of the stores involved, right. I mean you look at Next Adventure doing everything right.
A really a strong customer base. They had an amazing used gear section. Rutabaga just experiential, all about, just a core pillar of the paddle community. Summit has been there for.
They just celebrated their 50 years in business. I mean that's the shocker to me. It's not that their stores are closing, it's that these stores are closing.
Colin True
00:17:16.970 - 00:18:37.490
Interesting in talking with Darren and everybody's going to hear this in a second. Not really what I expected. The reasons why they're closing the store, very personal reasons. Not to spoil the conversation. And also it's a.
He admits that the world has changed, the industry has changed, but that wasn't the primary driver here like it seems to have been for Next Adventure and Summit Hut.
But the thing that really stuck out to me in our conversation with him is how important and everybody knows people in the industry definitely know that Rutabaga is very tied to Canoeucopia, which is a big paddling event that they do every year. And the thing that he repeated several times, I feel like was that sort of important. Part of what Rutabaga brought to the.
To the community was experiential opportunities for people to try out kayaking and then buy a boat. And he really seemed to hang his hat on. That's really what the differentiation was here.
Not just, hey, we have the mom and pop, we have a lot of folks who will give you good customer service and things like that. Sure, that exists as well. But he seems to believe that the things that we're really going to miss in this sort of shift that feels like it's coming.
We've talked about it a lot in the show and you just reiterated it, Owen, that we're gonna lose that. And I don't know how. If we are gonna get more into a digital world and things are gonna change, I think that's gonna be harder to replace. Is the.
How do we get more people trying things through their local shops? I think that's more.
Producer Dave
00:18:37.490 - 00:19:02.270
Is it just moving? I see. Is it just moving? One thing we have in common in all of these places that they're actually in urban centers, not in.
Actually next to the recreation areas themselves. And so will those places become the gateway aspect where you're going to this location?
You' that's where you'll then engage in that type of experience where what we're losing in a sense is the middle of the industry.
Darren Bush
00:19:02.350 - 00:19:02.630
Right.
Producer Dave
00:19:02.630 - 00:19:33.030
We're getting kind of the. The big box and the digital has become the entree into it.
You're still going to have your super premium, but it's how people access that first touch to the industry has shifted massively and is changing.
So I think it's the middle that's that we're losing, but it's just shifting where those experiential and those call it that former core retail experience will be. And I don't think it will necessarily impact as much the places, like I said, that are nestled next to the.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:33.590 - 00:19:54.210
Recreation hubs in terms of the whole digital thing, are you more likely to feel safe and Prepared to go on your first paddling adventure by watching a YouTube video. Or if you have somebody right there next to you, literally holding your hand as you get into that kayak and demonstrating to you how to do it.
Producer Dave
00:19:55.240 - 00:20:00.440
I think you have to do the YouTube video to show you that you need to go talk to somebody in person.
Colin True
00:20:02.680 - 00:20:03.680
That'S gonna teach.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:03.680 - 00:20:04.120
Hmm.
Producer Dave
00:20:04.120 - 00:20:07.880
You know what? This isn't like fixing the garbage disposal. This looks a little.
Colin True
00:20:08.200 - 00:20:09.000
I could drown.
Producer Dave
00:20:09.480 - 00:20:15.000
I could die in that. Right, so. And that tanker looks awfully big. What are they doing there?
Colin True
00:20:15.560 - 00:21:12.870
I'm remarkably optimistic because it does seem, I think humans have proven that if there's a need for something, someone will come along to fill that need. I think the needs, just like the shopping experience will be different.
Maybe that is, you know, maybe it will more guiding services or maybe more be more meetup style groups that people get, hey, let's get people together and bring all your stuff and we'll teach you how to do it. And before it was kind of one stop shopping. You come here, we show you how to do it, we give you a boat, whatever.
So I don't think that it's going to go away because if people want it, if there's demand for it, people will find a way to fulfill that.
But it is, you know, if anything, at minimum, it's just, it's sad because like, you know, and you talked about it, Owen too, that experience of the gear shop and there's the experience of walking in and feeling like, ooh, I now want to go to the out, I want to go outside because I'm in the store. Well, it's a whole other thing to say, hey, I actually started my journey kayaking, hiking, climbing, whatever it is because of that store.
And that was so cool and like it's a little bit of a visual representation of your personal outdoor journey. And that's just not going to be the case anymore.
Eoin Comerford
00:21:12.870 - 00:21:41.880
Yeah. And hopefully others will join and other businesses will come up to fill that void a little bit.
Like I look at an outdoor collective where they actually run events regionally where people can then show up and test a bunch of different experiences, whether it's rock climbing or kayaking or backpacking or what have you in sort of a safe environment where they can then go beyond that and figure out what works for them.
Producer Dave
00:21:41.960 - 00:21:51.850
I just got an unfortunate vision of the future where the new wing of the historical society is the gear shop where we get to go and we.
Colin True
00:21:51.850 - 00:21:55.290
Recreated rudabaga brick by brick in the Smithsonian.
Producer Dave
00:21:55.530 - 00:22:05.930
It is a square to the square foot, a reproduction of the kind of like Almost Famous did of Rolling Stones offices. Right? Just a. There you go.
Colin True
00:22:06.330 - 00:26:32.400
All right, let's take a break to hear from some of our sponsors. When we come back, we'll be joined by Darren Bush, owner of Rutabaga Paddle Sports. Just in time for fall.
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Don't let our big time production value and celebrity names fool you.
Looking at you producer Dave But Rockvite LLC is a small business and growing brand and even though we have our own consigliere, he advises on other matters. We've got to consult a lawyer every now and then on the legal structures that every business needs.
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All right, everyone, we're here today with Darren Busch, the owner of Rutabaga Paddlesports in Madison, Wisconsin. Welcome to the show, Darren. Thanks so much for joining us.
Darren Bush
00:26:32.480 - 00:26:33.920
Oh, it's great to be here. Thank you.
Colin True
00:26:34.000 - 00:26:38.440
I think we should start. I mean, Owen maybe wants to know more than anyone, you left LinkedIn.
Darren Bush
00:26:38.440 - 00:26:39.480
Oh, I did, right?
Eoin Comerford
00:26:39.480 - 00:26:43.120
I was like, where is he?
Colin True
00:26:45.200 - 00:26:46.840
It's a little more quiet without you.
Darren Bush
00:26:46.840 - 00:26:53.820
You know, I call it Tinder for MBAs, so I totally hate it. And tell me I'm wrong, right?
Producer Dave
00:26:54.220 - 00:27:00.460
No, but most of those are, most of those are extension courses, so they're not actual MBAs.
Darren Bush
00:27:00.620 - 00:27:04.780
Yeah, Phoenix University or whatever. Right? Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
Colin True
00:27:05.180 - 00:27:20.960
All right, the real reason we're talking today, right?
So this conversation is going to run on Monday, September 22, and by then the news will be out that Rutabaga, the shop where you have worked since 1998 and have owned since 2002, will be closing at the end of the year. Let's just start with the big question, you know, why did you decide to close?
Darren Bush
00:27:22.080 - 00:29:13.230
It's a great question. So to back up, so when I was in eighth grade, which was 50 years ago, I took a test to see what I would be best at when I grow up.
And it came out as pastor. And I'm like, really? No, because my church, and I'm nlds, and my church is a late clergy. We don't have paid clergy.
I'm like, well, I just qualified for a job. I'll never get paid anyway. So 50 years. Fast forward 45 years.
Five years ago, I started working as a hospice chaplain, as a volunteer, and just got more and more into it and spent a lot of time with people who are on their, you know, by definition, hospice is the last six months of your life, but usually it was closer to a month. And just helping them go through the transition, help them with figuring out how to deal with, you know, the social work part of it.
I'm just, I'm good at helping people work through things that are hard and ask hard questions and write obituaries while they're still alive and have them be part of that. And I love it. So last year, year ago, I got A phone call from a guy who was the director of spiritual care at the large hospital in town.
And he said, I heard some things about you from one of my other mentors who's an Orthodox rabbi. So my mentors are Unitarian Orthodox rabbis. So it's almost like a bar joke. Right. Three, you know, a Mormon, Unitarian and a rabbi walk into a bar.
Right. So at any rate, he called me, we had lunch and ended up talking for two hours. And he said, well, all you need is the cpe and then I'll, I'll.
I'll hire you. And that's an acronym for Clinical Pastoral Education. So I'll. I'll be a certified clinical pastor. I just a hospice guy.
But all the way through this, it's been about the people in the community, not about stuff.
Colin True
00:29:13.790 - 00:29:25.670
Yeah, you kind of have me on my heels now. I was kind of expecting, like, ah, times are tough. You know, like, prices are going up, tariffs. You're like, no, hold on.
I'm actually just starting a second chapter in my life. That's. That's pretty. That's. That's amazing.
Darren Bush
00:29:25.670 - 00:29:35.270
Actually, my third one because I was an epidemiologist before I sold canoes. So I don't know what I want to be when I grow up, but I think I'm settling on hospice Chaplain.
Colin True
00:29:35.270 - 00:29:38.750
David, is Darren the most interesting man in the outdoor industry, Right?
Producer Dave
00:29:38.910 - 00:29:47.790
I think so. I do think we should probably get a real concise, like, for people that don't know Rutabaga.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:48.430 - 00:29:49.350
Where did it start?
Producer Dave
00:29:49.350 - 00:29:50.590
How long has it been there?
Darren Bush
00:29:50.910 - 00:31:41.180
Yeah, so Rutabaga has been around since 1976, I think, in kind of an abbreviated form of itself. It was kind of a. Not a high quality retail shop. It was basically a garage sale on steroids.
And I came on part time in 1990 and just loved talking to people about boats. And I was a boat junkie and loved paddling. And so it was easy, right? People come in, I want to paddle, I'm there. I love to paddle.
And, you know, it wasn't really sales. It was just talking to people. And then in 94, it became apparent that I wasn't growing in my previous job. I was marking time and my, My life.
My life path has always been when you stop learning, time to move something else. And I thought, well, I'll work here for four or five years and then I'll. I'll be done and I'll stop. Stop learning and then I'll go on.
But I didn't stop learning. It just kept going. Right. Because they kept on moving from, you know, employee to GM to owner to part owner to owner.
And every time that happened, I learned something. And so about a year ago, like I said, I had a heart attack two years ago. And an lad, if you look that up, they're kind of ugly.
It's called the widowmaker. And it set me on my heels. And I'm like, well, we got to start planning on the future here.
Because you don't just put a sign in front of the shop and say, hey, for sale, and started doing more chaplaincy work. And I'm not going to say the economy didn't have an impact in my decision. If I were 40, I probably would have stuck it out. But I'm not.
I'm 63 and I've had a heart attack. And all these things come together and it's like, yeah, this is what I'm supposed to do.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:41.340 - 00:31:53.180
Darren, you talk about the economics there, and you've been in this industry for over a quarter century. How have the economics changed over the years and then more recently?
Darren Bush
00:31:55.020 - 00:34:07.030
Well, I would back up and get more macro than that. I think that retail in general has changed. I mean, when I started at the business, the Internet wasn't a thing.
You know, when I started the business, basically the two places to buy things were at big box stores and not very good ones. I mean, like, big five in places like that, right? And specialty retail.
And I think what happened is, as time has gone by, specialty retail has suffered, not just in the outdoor space, but everywhere. And I think the reason is we got fat, dumb and happy. So if you go to. I mean, well, here's an example. I buy my dog food online, right?
It comes every month.
The reason I do that isn't because I love supporting an online dog food company, is when I went to the local dog food place every month to buy stuff, I got nothing. You know, and, you know, one time they changed the place where the dog food was. I said, hey, my dog food's not over there.
And she said, yeah, it's over there somewhere. And then back on her phone again, right? I'm like, where? What aisle? She's like, I don't know.
I'm like, okay, so you just told me I don't matter anymore. And that's fine. That's fine. Their decision was to give poor service and still try and do brick and mortar. So add to that everybody.
So online sales, we just handed that to them, right? I mean, Macy's. I was in a Macy's. And it's like there's stains on the carpeting, and there's no one there. And the clothes are just piled up on.
This used to be a premium retailer, and now they're a dump. And they have seven people working there where they used to have 20. So it's not just outdoor. It's everywhere.
And the level of service you get when it's great, I'm surprised. And, you know, we have 4.9 star Google for a reason. We give really good service, and that's what we like about it.
And people, like, always comment, man, this is amazing. I'm not used to this. I'm like. And that's a scathing indictment of our economy.
Colin True
00:34:07.510 - 00:34:19.530
But specifically for rutabaga, how's it going? I mean, to your point, you said if you're 40, like, you'd probably keep going. It's obviously different.
But, you know, to Owen's point, like, some definitely different, but, you know, how is it right now?
Darren Bush
00:34:19.690 - 00:35:09.150
I could write it out, but, you know, a lot of people are out there working for free. Right. And that's no fun, but it's. It's okay, but it's not great. You know, one thing that hurt is the cost of money doubled.
So if I'm financing inventory, you know, my EBITDA is fine, but my P. L. Looks crappy. So if you look at it that way, we're fine. We're bankable. I just don't want to go through this again.
I thought about selling, but I don't know anybody who can do it like we do it and would have the same commitment to customer service and to taking care of people. I don't want to Hobie it. Right. We sell it to a couple of guys that think they know everything, and pretty soon it's in the toilet.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:09.860 - 00:35:44.870
Yeah, not a lot of love lost for Hobie in the paddlesports retailers that I talked to. You talk about working for free.
And I do see that with quite a few independent retailers as actually a big impediment to potentially being able to sell their businesses come the time to move on or retire.
Because unless somebody does want to do that, want to basically live in the store, be the gm, almost live and breathe it, the business model doesn't really exist in many cases unless you're willing to do that.
Darren Bush
00:35:45.350 - 00:36:32.670
I would agree with that. And that's happened three years in the 27 years I've owned it. And there is an impediment. The other impediment that I don't.
People talk about enough is that I bought it when I was 40 and I had a house and I had an IRA and I had some assets to leverage. People in their 30s who would be a natural people moving into that role. That generation doesn't have any real estate.
They're in a different situation than people my age. I don't know that they're bankable unless they have some family money they want to throw in there. But I don't know those people.
And I'm not going to put it for sale and say, hey, anybody who's got family money wants to buy this place. No, just not who I am. That's not what I do.
Colin True
00:36:32.990 - 00:37:05.930
The announcement comes at a pretty interesting time given that just shy of two years ago, we lost Midwest Mountaineering. Just over the last few months, we learned that Next Adventure in Portland and Summit Hut in Tucson are also closing this year.
There's been a trend in recent years where accounts in the goa, the Grassroots Outdoor alliance, have been able to find new ownership. But, you know, now we have three pretty significant names in the space just outright closing for different reasons.
It sounds like mostly across the board. But how do you assess these recent closures?
Is this a coincidence that, you know, three, your store included, are shutting down this year, or is this a sign of more to come?
Darren Bush
00:37:06.090 - 00:37:35.870
If I knew that, I would be trading stocks. And one of the problems, I think with retail in general, especially retail, is all across the board is getting a real number for that is tough.
And, you know, Keith Miller closed California Canoe and Kayak too, and sold one of the stores to one of his employees. But I don't know the details of that. But Keith's in his mid-70s, I think, and that's. I don't want to be a guy in the 70s working in a kayak shop.
Producer Dave
00:37:35.870 - 00:37:58.170
You guys seem to be one of the early movers to expanding from just kind of having gear to experiential kind of offerings. The paddling school, the canoe acopia, things like that. How has that helped through this time frame?
Like you said, you know, just how has that changed kind of your value and kind of what you bring?
Darren Bush
00:37:59.610 - 00:39:09.700
So, you know, like I said before, my business is. It's kind of part of my spiritual practice, right? And that's getting people outside. Anybody can sell stuff, right? Stuff's easy.
You can get stuff anywhere. But getting stuff, getting to paddle it on site, getting signed up for a class.
You know, we just finished doing Camp Rutabaga up north northern Wisconsin, and we had 108 people there, and we made a little bit. But Mostly they came back and bought boats because they came out of the class going, oh, I get it now.
And I was working with a woman who's probably in her mid-40s. She's like, I don't know how to do this. And at the end of three hours, she's like, I get it now. I can do this.
And it took her boat from being a, you know, a waste to something she could use. So skills are super important. Community is super important. You know, Kunucopia is our big show that's staying, which people are like, really?
I said, yeah, because that's community is what's. What people want. And, you know, there are people that came to our camps, you know, Camp Rutabaga and then before that the Door county symposium.
And they didn't even need to take the classes. You know, they'd already taken them three times. They just wanted to be up there with their, with their people and enjoy that community.
Colin True
00:39:10.500 - 00:39:23.140
Is that going to be an issue, do you think? Because I think the two are pretty inextricably linked, right?
If you say some, you know, if I mentioned rutabaga, like, oh, yeah, they do Cano Copia or have you been to Canoe? They're part of that retailer in Madison. I mean, is it. How do you think that's going to play out?
Darren Bush
00:39:23.540 - 00:39:54.630
I think it's fine because I was talking to one of my vendors yesterday. After I told the staff, I started calling people and he said, I said, I don't think it's gonna make a difference.
He said, dude, half the time people pull out a credit card and say, what do I pay you? Right? And half them like. And the other has, where's the rutabaga booth? I'm like, dude, the whole thing's a rutabaga booth.
I would say a vast majority of attendees know there's an affiliation, but it's a business at a different time with a different, different spirit to it.
Eoin Comerford
00:39:55.430 - 00:40:24.210
That is kind of the model that we're seeing working. Well now, if you look at paddle or bike or even overlanding, is this more consumer driven approach, Sea Otter, et cetera.
Whereas some of the industry trade shows are kind of struggling. I know you were involved with the big gear show, but that's no longer with us, unfortunately. But this consumer piece is. What do you think?
Think about that, that whole landscape.
Darren Bush
00:40:24.770 - 00:40:35.010
If you can't teach people how to use stuff, you're selling dog food, right? If I go to a dog food store and say, hey, have you tried this new one? It's good for dogs with skin allergies. I am a customer for life.
Eoin Comerford
00:40:35.890 - 00:40:39.890
Do you think that the outdoor industry is in a healthy place right now?
Darren Bush
00:40:41.010 - 00:41:20.370
No, because no industries are in a healthy place right now. Again, there's vending machines, there's specialty retailers, and there's big boxes, slash, you know, Internet.
You know, Amazon's cap is what, three times Walmart? I mean, you see five Amazon trucks going down my street every day. That's because we gave them that business.
We made it easy people to buy from them and we didn't do our job as retailers. I'm talking across the board, right? So yeah, it's struggling because they haven't changed their model yet.
The people that are doing experiential stuff, stuff, they're going to be fine, I guess.
Colin True
00:41:20.370 - 00:41:32.650
You know, one thing I'm back bringing back to the, the Goa of it all, when you think of it, is some, a pretty big hit, right? The three accounts that we mentioned, yours, Summit Hut and Next Adventure. What, what do you think is in store for, for that organization?
Darren Bush
00:41:33.770 - 00:42:25.050
I don't know. I really don't. I mean, they have 9,000 members, something like that. So I don't know that that matters that much.
I'm, I'm, I'm more concerned for the local customers in finding a place to go and getting stuff. And there's some small box stores like Scheels. Scheels is a great merchant. They do a really good job.
If they dropped the shields in Madison, I think they would crush rei because REI sucks right now. The one in Madison is like, they fired everybody.
There's four people wandering around asking if you want to buy a membership and everything's dusty and yeah, no, it really is a shame. And, but you know, I was on the OI board 20 years ago and REI was pretty cool. They were still relevant. I don't know that they're relevant anymore.
Eoin Comerford
00:42:25.530 - 00:42:29.850
So Darren, looking back over your time in the industry, what are you most proud of?
Darren Bush
00:42:30.010 - 00:43:19.390
Putting tens of thousands of people on the water and making their lives better. And I had a, a woman I taught a private lesson to one time. She bought a canoe and didn't know how to use it.
I said, let's just go do a one hour private and we get out of the, off the water and I put my boat, I turn around, she just grabs me and hugs me. She says, you just changed my life. Like, really? She's like, yeah, my husband's a nerd. He's a computer programmer.
He uses his body to carry his head around. He has no interest in doing anything athletic. I can do this myself now. So I probably get hugged by customers a couple times a day. That's.
That's powerful stuff. Right? That's why. That's what I'm going to miss about the brick and mortar at Kunucopia. I'll make up for it.
I mean, my hugging muscles get tired after three days of Kinucopia.
Colin True
00:43:23.310 - 00:43:36.670
Well, Darren, we really appreciate making a few minutes to spend with us. Congrats on an incredible career at Rutabaga, and definitely good luck.
I mean, it sounds like your future is bright and excited to, you know, track that. It won't be on LinkedIn, we won't be tracking. Tracking it there, but excited to see what you do next.
Producer Dave
00:43:36.670 - 00:43:42.010
And I think there's definitely a Van Dyke that meets in the middle between your two experiences, for sure.
Darren Bush
00:43:42.090 - 00:43:50.170
Oh, my life is a giant Venn diagram. The center part of is empathy and compassion. That's what I do.
Chris DeMakes
00:43:52.490 - 00:43:54.650
It's time for a parting shot.
Colin True
00:43:56.330 - 00:47:30.900
Okay, it's time for the parting shot and for my parting shot today. I've lost Dave, I've lost Owen. I'm on my own.
And honestly, I wasn't going to do a parting shot because I figured after our interview with Darren, that would have been a good enough episode. But I occurred to me that I think our industry needs to get a little louder.
And let me explain what I mean, it occurred to me last week when ABC kicked Jimmy Kimmel to the curb and the backlash from the entertainment world got real loud real quick, that we are still just way too passive here in the outdoor industry when it comes to what's happening in Washington, D.C. and the Trump administration. Sure, there's been a push to defeat Mike Lee's public land sell off.
And over the past few weeks, we've seen many brands and individuals and organizations talking about commenting on the proposal to rescind the roadless rule.
And that's great, but honestly, it's starting to feel to me like we're protecting that, quote, seat at the table instead of understanding what is actually going on. Because eventually the roadless rule may be the least of our concerns. And honestly, the not too distant future.
So there's two things I want to say, and then I'll wrap this up. I reached out to Paul Hendricks at the Conservation alliance last week to ask what was happening with Brands for Public Lands.
He came on this past spring, told us about Brands for Public Lands was a big splash, and it kind of felt like maybe things had gone a little quiet. Aside from things like the roadless rule commenting and the public land sell off.
So he told me what the organization was focused on and he also encouraged me to sign Rock Fight up to be part of Brands for Public Lands, which I immediately did. And when I did, I discovered that Rock Fight is the first media outlet to join that effort.
No one else in the outdoor media scene has joined Brands for Public Lands. So if you're listening to this and you work for one of those outlets, please sign up for Brands for Public Lands. Now that surprised me.
And it wasn't the only media related thing that surprised me last week as I found out that Wes Seiler, the well known and respected journalist who is now running for office in the state of Montana, was let go from his contract with Outside after announcing his candidacy specifically because he's seeking office. And sorry to take another shot at Outside, but holy shit, talk about a missed opportunity.
Maybe they have some rules around people running for office and doing work there. Whatever. Figure it out. You could have had Wes posting blogs about what it was like to be an outdoor journalist while running for office.
There's so many interesting things about what he's going to do and how it affects our outdoor world. At the minimum, it was a missed opportunity. At worst, it's just kind of shitty.
So I know I probably sound a little disjointed today, but that's because it feels like we're just lying down and waiting for the end at the exact moment when those with the biggest voices need to be standing up.
It's been acknowledged by many in the media that the domino that fell that led to Jimmy Kimmel being suspended last week was Disney bending the knee earlier this year in a Trump lawsuit against ABC News. So if you're trying to dance between the raindrops and be careful right now, I don't think that that's the best strategy given who we're up against.
So that's my parting shot. Outdoor industry, let's rise up. Let's talk a little louder.
Outdoor media sign up for Brands Republic Lands Support everyone out there doing things that are gonna help our current situation. Cause it feels like we really need it right now, guys. And that's the show for today. We want your emails.
Send them to myrockplatemail.com the Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight LLC. Today's episode was produced by producer Dave Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert for Owen Comerford. I'm Colin True. Thank you for listening.
And here to take us out, it's Chris Demaicz. And he's gonna sing the Rock Fight Fight song. We'll see you next time, Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:47:39.470 - 00:48:32.120
Welcome to the rock bike? Where we speak our truth? Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree? We talk about human powered outdoor activities?
And big bites about topics that we find interesting? Like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews? Ideas that aim for the head? This is the way we speak our truth? This is where we speak our truth?
Rock fight? Rock fight? Rock fight? Welcome to the rock fight? Rock fight, Rock fight? Welcome to the rock fight? Rock fight? Rock fight? Rock fight?
Rock fight, Rock fight? Welcome to the rock fight? Rock fight? Rock fight? Rock fight, Rock fight.
