So What Is An Emerging Brand Anyway?
- colin7931
- Oct 10
- 35 min read
Today on The Rock Fight, Colin digs into the question: what the hell is an “emerging brand” anyway?
Joined by Emily Holland (Founded Outdoors) and Lloyd Vogel (Garage Grown Gear), the conversation talks about what life is really like for small outdoor businesses.
Defining “Emerging”: Why the term is so fuzzy and whether it even matters.
Founded Outdoors: How the organization is creating a free, vibrant community (and consulting arm) to support founders, minimize gatekeeping, and provide resources for early stage outdoor companies.
Success & Failure: Why most small brands don’t flame out dramatically, but quietly fade away and how expectations play a huge role.
Product vs. Brand: The chicken-and-egg debate. Do you lead with killer gear, or build a story first?
Why Small Brands Matter: Faster innovation, closer ties to real community needs, and local economic impact.
They also debate whether the outdoor industry is too insular, how outside perspectives (Sephora anyone?) could add value, and why supporting small brands doesn’t always mean paying a premium.
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Episode Transcript:
Ibex!
00:00:01.600 - 00:00:48.850
This just in. Breaking News from the Rock Fight Rumors are swirling about a merger between two outdoor footwear titans.
While news blackout protocols are in effect, we are unable to name brands involved in the transaction. However, this hasn't stopped wild speculation from populating LinkedIn that a monster RE release is in the works.
Plans for a potential collab were recently spotted near a local watering hole. Adding to the frenzy, the new item, called Jungle Croc, comes in at 17ft long and contains nearly 900 pounds of proprietary closed cell resin Fury.
Placing the new shoe has reportedly been difficult as floor models consistently eat their smaller trail ridding neighbors, with some Jungle Crocs even taking down the occasional 10 inch logger boot or small child who's touching things they were told not to.
Colin True
00:00:49.730 - 00:07:12.840
Alright, while that may not be true, you know what is true? Ibex Merino is as home in your shop as Dale's in a drag bag.
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And that's not a Croc welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, sleaze sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True and today we're talking about emerging brands. And what does that even mean?
But first, some programming reminders. We never want you to miss an episode of the Rock Fight, so please click Follow on the podcast app you're using right now.
This Thursday you're gonna get an all new episode of Gear Abbey with host Shantae Salibair who answers all of your outdoor burning questions.
Be sure also to follow Gear Abby and if you have a question for Gear Abby, send it to her@deargearabbymail.com also follow that podcast on this app that you're using right now as well. And lastly, if you want more from the Rock Fight Podcast network, head to Rockfight Co and sign up for News from the Front our semi weekly letter.
And if you'd like to see some video clips from our episodes, head over to Instagram and find us there. Where we are rockflight company to follow along.
But for today, you know, pretty often in our outdoor industry conversations we talk in big broad strokes when describing the brands that make up the industry.
On one side we have the incumbent big outdoor brands like the North Face, Marmot or Mountain Hardware, and then everyone else tends to get labeled as emerging brands, which I think we all just assume means younger, more upstart brands who are looking to become as entrenched as a Patagonia or Outdoor Research. But a good amount out of these brands are well beyond emerging, and in fact they're fully emerged and are established in their own right.
Maybe not to the degree as some of the big guys, but why does that matter so long as they have a customer base that loves them and as a business are earning their right to survive.
So really who we're talking about in that regard are the startups, the brands who haven't maybe quite earned that right to survive yet and are looking for a constant edge to help them get to that place.
Since we spend so much time here on the Rock fight, talking about the big economic driving brands, and rightfully so, because they are driving our industry's economy, I wanted to dig into this notion about emerging brands a little more. So today we're bringing in two different points of view on the topic, and both of them you've heard here before on the podcast.
First, we have Emily motherfucking Holland, and those are her words. I want to clarify. I was required by contract to say it that way.
Emily wears a ton of hats in our space, and one of those hats is the Management of Community Engagement for Founded Outdoors and Found. It is an organization that exists to help new outdoor industry founders along their entrepreneurial journey. And second's our guy, Trader Lloyd Vogel.
The Trader Lloyd part. Those are actually our words.
You know, Lloyd as the CEO of Garage Grown Gear, the online retailer where a ton of their vendors are young and emerging brands. Both Emily and Lloyd are here to chat with me today.
Although I should mention that we recorded this before the announcement was made about outdoor retailer moving to Minneapolis. So if you're wondering why we didn't touch base on that with Lloyd, there you go. But let's get into it.
Welcome back to the Rock Fight, where today it's what the hell is an Emerging Brand Anyway? With Emily Holland and Lloyd Vogel. And that's coming up right after some words from our sponsors.
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You know guys, winter's unpredictable. It's mild one week, freezing the next.
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Adventure is calling. Are you ready to answer? No, I'm serious. Are you ready to answer?
Because coming early in November, Lem's Shoes is dropping a bold new lineup of minimalist boots and trail shoes built to go wherever the season takes you. So meet your new trail companions. You got the Trail Thrasher and the Trailblazer Mid.
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Hey retailers, be sure to go see the Lem's team when they exhibit at Goa's Discovery Marketplace at the Connect show in Kansas City this November. All right, we are here with a couple of returning champions of the Rock fight.
We got Emily Holland, who has on her founded Outdoors Hat, which is, I think, hat number 856 of the more than 1000 hats that she wears, as well as the CEO of Garage Grown Gear, the Dyneema enthusiast himself, Lloyd Vogel, is back on the show. Welcome back, guys. Good to have you back here.
Lloyd Vogel
00:07:12.920 - 00:07:13.800
Thanks for having us.
Emily Holland
00:07:14.360 - 00:07:28.760
Yeah, good to be back. Let's just talk over each other, Lloyd, the entire time.
It's funny that I'm the one who wears the hats because Lloyd wears a hat every single day of his life. That's true. He actually probably does have a thousand hats, so.
Colin True
00:07:28.760 - 00:07:33.560
But you do turn up across the outdoor industry, Emily. It's kind of like there's a thing happening. It's like, oh, Emily's involved.
Lloyd Vogel
00:07:33.800 - 00:07:34.480
You know, she's.
Emily Holland
00:07:34.480 - 00:07:38.440
She's here once again. We can't get rid of her. She's just always showing up.
Colin True
00:07:38.760 - 00:07:41.240
Is that a good penny, bad penny situation? What is it?
Emily Holland
00:07:42.280 - 00:07:45.480
Yeah. I don't know. That must be a Gen X saying. I don't really know what that means.
Colin True
00:07:45.720 - 00:07:48.280
What's a penny? Do we use this anymore?
Emily Holland
00:07:48.680 - 00:07:50.240
Coin. I'm confused.
Colin True
00:07:50.240 - 00:07:55.640
Oh, you were born in the 70s. I did just turn 50.
Emily Holland
00:07:56.680 - 00:08:01.360
Yes, I know. And I've told you many times, your hair is incredible, especially for your age. Let's move on.
Colin True
00:08:01.360 - 00:08:06.340
Colin, I'm a little worried. Are you going to like it as much when it goes completely gray? That' I'm worried about.
Emily Holland
00:08:06.340 - 00:08:15.620
Oh, I'm gonna love it even more. That's like, especially because it's so straight. It's like, so silver fox. You're gonna be such a silver fox. Yeah, I love it. I feel fine saying that.
Yeah.
Lloyd Vogel
00:08:16.260 - 00:08:22.580
Personal satisfaction when you lose all of your hair and join the ranks of bald men like myself.
Colin True
00:08:23.140 - 00:09:21.560
Well, guys, we're talking about emerging brands because both of you obviously involved in emerging brands. I think we, Lloyd, before we hit record, made a good point of, like, what is an emerging brand.
That's an interesting conversation starter right there. But I do want to.
And I do want to start by defining who we're even talking about, because the outdoor industry was not built on outdoor pursuits really. It was built more on the brands who are seen as enabling our outdoor pursuits.
And our brands are really the celebrities of our space, with many of us looking to get jobs at those brands. And then when we have those jobs, our friends and families sort of geek out when you tell them where you work.
And the point being that there's a real weight to being an outdoor active brand. And I imagine that attracts a lot of folks who want to try and make it in our space.
And so when you think about someone looking at entering the space, creating an outdoor and active brand, you know, what does that look like? What, what is, I mean, to Lloyd to your question, like, what is an emerging brand look like? Is it the product? Is it the positioning?
Is it really the desired point of distribution? Like, what are we even talking about when we're talking about these new brands?
Lloyd Vogel
00:09:21.560 - 00:10:37.000
Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of arbitrary to some extent. Like, I think it largely has to do with what perspective on the industry you have.
Like, if you are someone who only has familiarity with the big companies in this space, you could look at, you know, companies with $100 million of revenue and be like, oh yeah, the small players in this space.
And then I think, you know, if you go down into the garage grown gear world of things, you know, our small makers might do less than $250,000 in revenue. And when those folks look at a big brand, that might mean $5 million in revenue.
So I think there is kind of an arbitrary nature to it and there's like so many different terminology, parts of terminology that get slung around with that if that's small, if that's startup cottage emerging. And I think all really kind of just have different associations, but none of them have particularly clear definitions.
And I think people try to put their own definition on it and I don't think it really matters.
I think some, like, I don't identify it as a, a startup to me that like has connotations of like tech and money and newness and it's very product centered. But I also don't identify as emerging because I don't really know what that is.
Colin True
00:10:37.000 - 00:10:38.040
It's like you're giving birth.
Lloyd Vogel
00:10:40.360 - 00:10:42.840
It'S emerging. I am here.
Colin True
00:10:43.240 - 00:10:47.320
I have birthed this brand. I was like, what does that mean?
Lloyd Vogel
00:10:48.280 - 00:10:55.680
Yeah, yeah, I don't really. And like emerging I think implies like some form of goal that you are emerging towards.
Colin True
00:10:55.680 - 00:10:56.120
Yeah.
Lloyd Vogel
00:10:56.120 - 00:11:48.060
And I'd say most of the business owners that I know don't necessarily like, when have you, if you're emerging, when have you actualized, like, isn't that just like constantly a state of, of being in flux? So I mean, I identify as being a small business owner.
I identify as having a lot of the brands that are in the garage grown gear sphere as being small. And I think it is something that you kind of identify as. It's not a label anyone can just slap on you. It's like, if you identify as a startup. Sweet.
If you want to feel like you're emerging, cool, emerge and you know, do whatever makes you feel seen great.
I think my only real beef is when you have brands that are like suddenly it's Small Business Saturday and you've got some, you know, $500 million company being like support our small brand and you're like, right, feels a little off.
Colin True
00:11:48.140 - 00:12:19.830
So typically an outdoor brand though that has any clout is like kind of looking to solve a problem though we're trying, if we're trying to hone in on like what a brand actually does and then you how an emerging brand might fit into that. You know, enthusiasts looking for better solutions or more comfortable ways of going outside.
So when I look at what Found It Outdoor does and Emily, I'm kind of curious like how do you, when you hear some of that of like sort of like the discourse around like what an emerging brand is, like who are the people who come to Found It Outdoors?
Like how do these folks who maybe have good ideas come to an organization like Founded Outdoors to kind of get a leg up versus in the past it was like, well I guess I'm going to try to make this thing and see what happens.
Emily Holland
00:12:20.230 - 00:14:06.150
Yeah, I think that the Lloyd's really spot on. Like it's so different. The definitions are all over the place and it also almost doesn't really matter in a way.
For Founded Outdoors the way that we think about the community is not really about if they're calling themselves emerging or small. We personally call them small because most of our brands that are in the community are definitely making less than 500k annually top line revenue.
Right. And many of them are less than 5 million, less than 10 million. And that's like the highest, highest range. Like the very few are making that.
So it's not really about like their size or their stage. But they have to be actively working on their business. They can still be like prototyping and, and working on pre launch, pre revenue, that's fine.
But they also need to be targeting the outdoor consumer as their main target audience. There are some folks that have like multiple target audiences, that's fine. But they need to have outdoor as one of their main.
And so we, we look at it a little less of like size and time spent in your business because there's some businesses too that have been in business for five years and they've made very little headway. Maybe they've still had a full time job. They're just doing it on the side. They can't fully go in yet. Fine.
But there's some people who in their first year are getting huge orders at REI and like fully, you know, locked in. So the parameters of small are kind of up to our discretion, I would say.
But for the most part, people come to Found it outdoors when they're very early on or within those like first five years, I would say, and get the most value in those first five years.
Colin True
00:14:06.470 - 00:14:20.710
So what, what are some of the things that found it offers some of the folks that come to you guys. Emily, like what, what are some of the actual.
Like if I have started a brand, whether it's, you know, Lloyd, to your point, small, medium, large, whatever. But I kind of fit into that criteria that you're looking for. What, what are the, what is the offering to a person like that?
Emily Holland
00:14:21.750 - 00:15:30.810
Yeah. So Founded Outdoors has two parts of the business.
I would say the first part is the community, which is more of what I think we're talking about today. And that's a free space for anyone, like I said, who has already started their business and their main target audience is the outdoor consumer.
So when they come in, the main thing that we offer, I would say is peer to peer knowledge sharing and having a space for people to do that in a way that's very actionable and engaged. So we have a huge Slack channel. By huge, I mean it's around 530 people and people are really popping off in there.
Like there are so many questions, so many great insights being shared. There's a lot of connections being made and if I do say so myself, it's one of the best Slack channels out there.
I'll just toot my own horn in that situation. But it's amazing. It's amazing how much people give and take and it's a free community. Right.
Some people say, like for community you need to have it paid for people to invest in it. And I just don't think that that's fully true. We've kind of proven that it's not necessarily true and we're keeping that free as of right now. So.
Colin True
00:15:30.810 - 00:15:40.430
So like you can. Almost anybody can take advantage of that. If you have an.
Or if you've started an outdoor brand or you want to start an outdoor brand, that's just a resource that's out there for people to tap into.
Emily Holland
00:15:40.590 - 00:16:24.680
Yes, if they are aspiring and have an idea, but do not yet have a business plan, prototype, et cetera, that's a bit too early for us. We've noticed that we need to have them actively working on their business. To get value and to also offer value in the community.
So that's a big part of it. And then we do tons of virtual events. Like we have webinars and workshops on all kinds of things.
This year alone we've had sales how to crush trade shows, like how to deal with the tariffs.
And then we partnered up with Lloyd and Garage Grown Gear to do a monthly webinar series called the Ascent Series, which is a panel that Lloyd runs usually on a specific topic that we know small slash emerging slash startups, slash cottage brands care about.
Colin True
00:16:24.680 - 00:16:35.300
We definitely need a word. I think like you said it was Owen, it came up with emerging. I think you might be right but like it's just not.
There's not a good all encompassing word. Let's work it. We'll take this offline. Sor Emily didn't even know.
Emily Holland
00:16:35.300 - 00:17:05.940
Maybe it's a chatgpt job. You just put all those in there and just like say come up with a term for this.
And then finally we, I mean we try to at least have extra resources too. So we have a resource guide that kind of holds everything that we've done.
It's all of our recordings of all of our workshops, webinars, anything people share in there that's helpful. Full list of any outdoor events.
And then when we are at outdoor events we'll do, you know, happy hours and try to meet up in person as much as possible. So that's the community side. So that's a lot.
Lloyd Vogel
00:17:05.940 - 00:18:06.470
And honestly like it is the best. I mean as someone who I've had the privilege of interacting with Founded Outdoors in a lot of different ways over the last couple of years.
But as a free resource, it literally is like the biggest no brainer if you are a small outdoor business. Like if you are not part of founded outdoors. I'm not sure exactly like what you're doing. Like it just, it has so many resources.
Like you don't, like I don't engage all the time with it, but I try to and I. And it's something that like can either be a very active or very passive part of what you do.
The Slack Channel is a great way to be able to pull knowledge from hundreds of other founders who have done it before because we all like to think that our story is very unique, but it's, it's really not.
And like everyone else has pretty much always had had the same challenges as you and just being able to have people, especially you know, if you're a small solo entrepreneur, being able to kind of, yeah, have Some camaraderie and solidarity with other folks. It's, it's brilliant. I love it.
Colin True
00:18:06.630 - 00:18:12.950
So you said that you mentioned there's two parts of founded outdoors. You mentioned the community part and everything. What is the other side of the organization?
Emily Holland
00:18:13.030 - 00:19:25.670
Yeah, so the other side is our consulting and partnership side. And so we consult with economic development groups, outdoor business alliances, outdoor rec offices, sometimes other nonprofits, or even county.
Different counties in different states have differently named organizations, but essentially either consulting with them, so helping them to understand what the needs are and their specific region, state, area, and then delivering on that and helping their outdoor entrepreneurs get those, those resources. But then we also fully do programming on behalf of those places too.
So we have, have had partnerships with Alabama, Vermont, Maine, Wisconsin, a small county in California, Siskiyou, which we're doing some work with this month, which is going to be very fun, and some others, and then of course our accelerator program with rei.
So I just wanted to mention that too, so that if founders are not necessarily ready to start their business just yet, but they have an idea or something, we often have programs in their areas with our partnerships. So just keeping an eye out for those might be helpful.
Colin True
00:19:26.070 - 00:20:11.410
What's the success rate here?
Right, because I look, think of like, look, I'm a founder and like, it just, it's a, and I'll tell you guys, you guys run your own businesses as well, right? It's a pretty lonely existence. And I understand that it's the community aspect of it. Right.
But it's, it's not, you know, we all have the days of like, I'm going to take over the world, then the next day you're like, I'm going to shut it down and go work at a Starbucks. You know, like, those are like, that's sort of the life here.
At the same time, there is an element of the market's going to really ultimately determine if you're successful or not, if you're, if your brand makes it, if your product is viable, all of those things.
Is there a success rate or is there, is there proof in the pudding that shows that like something this organization can help folks either get over those hurdles that are in their way, or is it just truly more of that about that support network to like, get through those low moments that we all have as a founder?
Emily Holland
00:20:11.410 - 00:21:10.220
Well, I'd be interested to see Lloyd's perspective is on this, but I, I, we don't have a success rate that we can share.
I mean, we are here to provide support and minimize gatekeeping to resources and there's so many other factors that come into play when someone is successful or not successful in their business. And also the definition of success is different for everyone. So it's really hard to quantify that.
Yeah, you know, there's kinds of things that we can't control. Like maybe someone's mental health is getting in the way of like their success. Maybe where they live is impacting them.
There's not as many resources there that they can tap into, like local bank loans and things like that or whatever. So we're in the business of supporting you, of where you're at in your journey, and we hope that that leads you to success.
And we think that this community and the learnings that we share do that. However, we're not, you know, at the end of the day, responsible for your success. And so we. Yeah, but we hope for it.
Colin True
00:21:10.300 - 00:21:14.020
What's the gatekeeping that's going on that you, that you're referring to? Is there something specific that you.
Emily Holland
00:21:14.020 - 00:21:32.970
I mean, traditionally, first, this is a little bit of coming from Silicon Valley and you know, other types of industries too, but traditionally, who gets access to resources when it comes to founding businesses? I see there's investment. Right. Mentorship goes. Let's guess who they are. White men. We all guessed at the same time.
Colin True
00:21:32.970 - 00:21:39.530
Look at that. In the outdoor industry, you left out skinny, by the way, in your descriptor, so.
Emily Holland
00:21:39.690 - 00:22:05.750
Oh, yes. Yeah. Skinny. Ish. White men. Way fish, if you will. And so, yeah, we want to make sure that this is a space we do a lot too.
Like even with the Ascent series or workshops that we're doing, people that we have for fireside chats, we really try to make sure that they are not all white men so that people see different versions of the journey that they could take as well.
Lloyd Vogel
00:22:05.750 - 00:23:44.090
You know, I, I think it's, it's hard to be able to like, I think there's kind of the thought that when companies go out of business that it's like up in flames or there's some declaration of bankruptcy. But like most small brands just kind of slide into non existence.
You know, they, it's either it's too hard, it didn't, it didn't blow up as quickly as they wanted to. They have another opportunity that can make them more money.
They have a kid and they have to like, like, you know, cover some new costs that just doesn't jive with their stage in life. So I think for a lot of small brands it's just less dramatic.
And so it's hard to be able to account for what makes it successful or what makes it fail. Because it's just up to kind of yeah. What their expectations are.
Success for some of our brands is perpetually being a non growth brand that just is able to subsist one's lifestyle. And there's a lot of lifestyle companies out there that that's what they want to do.
And but for a lot of brands like that isn't the goal and if they did that for a number of years straight, they would call it a failure and they would quit and shut it down or start something up or go take another nine to five.
So I mean I think it largely has to do with kind of what brands expectations are and if the reality lines up in a particular timeline that that works for them. So yeah, we've seen a lot of companies just come and go. Sometimes it's because you know, they just don't have the momentum.
Sometimes they've you know, realized that it's not scalable and sometimes it's just like, well actually I got a job working at Microsoft and it pays me like 10 times more and I don't have to work 80 hours a week. So yeah, why would I not do that?
Colin True
00:23:44.090 - 00:24:35.180
Well, kind of going back to my thing at the beginning right about the industry is very interesting because it is these sort of passion fueled products that fuel outdoor passions and you can see a lot of overlap and why somebody wants to start things.
I got the chance to work with a lot of founders that are my time at Polartech and like a lot of new upstart apparel brands I've talked about in this podcast before. Like coat epoxy was one of them and you always feel that sort of, it's, it's, it's much more than the product typically. Right.
Because these people do go outside and want to use these things and I'm like highlighted a need and like oh, I'm helping to solve that need. Right. Does this exist in other categories? Right. I think about this like the outdoors. Is this something that makes the outdoors unique?
Like is there someone out there is like hey man, I'm making the next great dishwasher. It's going to be so sick. You're not going to have to rinse your plates. It's going to be the best. Like I don't know.
This feels like a very uniquely outdoor thing. Am I, am I correct in that.
Emily Holland
00:24:35.180 - 00:25:32.260
I have a little bit of a hot take on this? I don't care. A dishwasher is improved. I do care, however, if my pants now Have a zipper that I can just squat and pee and that. That's sick. So I just.
Maybe I just don't know because I just don't care.
No, people are definitely making improvements on and like looking for spots and needs and, and challenges that people are having and trying to solve them. But it's just somehow not as exciting as someone figuring this tiny little thing out when they're hiking the PCT or something.
They're like, you know what would be great? If I did this thing. And then they go to their garage and they're like, you know, I'm gonna just sew it together and see what happens.
And then they suddenly are like, wait, this maybe could be good.
And then they talk to a bunch of people and they think it's good to like, that is such a cool journey compared to like, if the blender has a little bit better speed. Oh, that's what I mean, to have chunks in it.
Colin True
00:25:32.260 - 00:26:16.530
And look, I, I'm fully willing to claim ignorance if somebody wants to write in myrockfight gmail.com about like, you know, other industries that have similar things like founder outdoors or similarly passion driven founders like working on things.
But it seems to me that most of that comes out of like GE and somebody whose job it is like, hey, make these appliances better versus to your point, like the, the where these inspirational moments strike and how then these things come to market and then obviously then the resource they can get from a founded outdoors, it just feels very like this feels founded outdoors feels just very uniquely outdoor. And in fact, in. In the point of view that this is innovation in of itself of hey, here's all these people who are working on these things.
Let's provide resources to make sure that they can find success in their journey. Right. That's almost in itself an outdoor sort of missive in a way.
Lloyd Vogel
00:26:17.570 - 00:27:12.910
I mean, I think to take the dishwasher and run with it, I think there's a certain expectation. Yeah, I think the ex. There's a certain expectation with technology that it's constantly evolving.
And I think that that is something that like you don't pay attention to it, but you always expect that your last, your next dishwater dishwasher is better than your last dishwasher. And if you buy a fridge, it's going to be better than your last fridge. And I think that there's like a.
And that's largely big industry like the R and D that comes between, you know, at GE is very different than what Emily said. If someone hiked the pct, it's more accessible. And I.
And I don't think, like, I think one of the most awesome things about the outdoor industry, it's a passion, but it's a passion because it's a. It's something that you do in your personal time first and you figure out how to be able to professionalize it.
And, like, I don't think anyone is a, like, you know, a casual dishwasher for fun, and then they turn that hobby into a passion of, like, yeah.
Colin True
00:27:12.910 - 00:27:20.050
It'S got a 1972 GE. It's in a lime green. Got it at a flea market. I'm going to refurbish it. It's going to be so sick.
Lloyd Vogel
00:27:20.930 - 00:28:48.810
Yeah, like, because it's something that, like, you know, and I think that's even, you know, if you look at something like cars, I feel like there's people who work on cars and there's this, like, community around, like, antique and, like, fixing things up and custom stuff. And I think that's because there is a level of hobbyism that is added into it. And yes, some does make it to the level of professionalism.
But even if you're not a professional, and I think, like, there is a. You can go to a show like Pacific Crest Trail Days and talk to some of the most foremost, you know, designers in the world.
If I'm a, you know, a yahoo playing basketball in my local gym, which I do, I'm never going to run into LeBron James. It's just not going to happen there. And, you know, similarly, I use a dishwasher. Doesn't mean I know anyone who, like, designs dishwashers.
Just like, the accordion of the community is way smaller. And I think that that is something that is fairly unique to the outdoors. I mean, you see it in, like, in. In biking as well.
Like, bike packs are like a big kind of cottage industry of itself. But I think a lot of the outdoor industry has that kind of proximity because we're of the industry.
And when people come from outside of the industry and try to monetize it, people's hackles go up immediately. Or they're like, oh, that person came in from Sephora. Or that person used to be at Best Buy and be like, they don't understand how it works.
Well, you know, here in the outd industry, they probably don't even wear flannels or hats. They probably wear, like, suits and ties and, like, smell good.
Colin True
00:28:48.970 - 00:29:33.870
You're teeing up my kind of. My last big question here, because I do think there comes a time when the industry can become limiting. Right.
Example always give, you know, because you only. If you only pull from, like, a small, you know, pool of voices, there might be things you don't know.
And honestly, you can't always evaluate the quality of the voices that you're maybe you're listening to.
And I think there's a lot of times I'll see outdoor events, and it's like, just the same folks that I've seen in the industry for a long time giving the same speeches. And I would be like, I agree with you, Lloyd, in that. Like, yeah, when you're setting strategy, you want to understand the world that you're in.
And if you're only listening to people from outside the world, that seems like a bad idea. But there's a world where, like, well, this person worked at Sephora. What did they learn about retail working for a brand like that?
And what are the learnings that can then apply to, like, our space as well? And.
Lloyd Vogel
00:29:33.870 - 00:29:38.310
No, I. I agree with that fully. I just think that that's what the industry thinks.
Colin True
00:29:38.310 - 00:29:40.470
Like, oh, yeah, myself, yes, you're correct.
Lloyd Vogel
00:29:41.270 - 00:29:51.440
Like, I don't. I don't feel like I come necessarily from the outdoor industry.
I was, like, in special education and kind of just bumbled my way into being on this podcast over a number of years.
Colin True
00:29:51.440 - 00:29:54.840
Welcome. We got. We made it. This is the culmination of a long journey.
Emily Holland
00:29:55.400 - 00:29:57.480
Goodness, he's LinkedIn famous.
Lloyd Vogel
00:29:57.959 - 00:30:04.160
Yeah, well, you know, my long, illustrious career at Sephora made me very, you know, qualified for this.
Colin True
00:30:04.160 - 00:30:05.880
Poor Sephora is taking a beating on this pod.
Emily Holland
00:30:06.760 - 00:30:09.000
We love you, Sephora. Thank you.
Lloyd Vogel
00:30:11.560 - 00:30:13.080
Are they a new sponsor of the pod?
Emily Holland
00:30:13.240 - 00:30:13.560
They're.
Colin True
00:30:13.560 - 00:30:14.940
Well, welcome to. That's fine.
Emily Holland
00:30:14.940 - 00:30:16.980
Taking money from. For wherever you can get.
Colin True
00:30:16.980 - 00:30:35.300
Listen, we're not gonna, like, we're really not gonna bag on you on this show. You may as well, like, you know, tap into the outdoor scene, you know, but you know what I mean, though, like, that would, like.
I think it becomes important at some point to listen to other voices as well.
You know, is that an opportunity for, like, founded outdoors to bring some of those voices in for the founders that you guys have involved with the organization?
Emily Holland
00:30:35.460 - 00:32:38.410
I think we prioritize keeping it outdoor. However, we do sometimes bring in folks who are like general marketing person or general e commerce professional or sales professional.
But generally, like, we want to keep it specific. However, a lot of people who share resources in the community, well, they're pretty consistently not outdoor specific.
Like, there might be lessons from, like, Apple or even, like, maybe outdoor. Outdoor adjacent, like the hunting industry or the CPG and food industry. Like, that's a big one that they share resources around.
But I just want to go back to like, what makes these brands a little bit more unique, I think, and why people who are listening, if you're like, well, I don't really.
I just want to buy from Black diamond or whatever company that you want to buy from, I would just consider that the smaller brands that we're talking about who are awesome. Here's a couple things that you should think about for them. Okay. They innovate way faster than the big brands. They can.
Because while big brands have R and D budgets, small brands have no rules and they can just do what whatever they want. And obviously they need to be compliant with like legal restrictions, but they can innovate faster.
And so you might be able to get like a way cooler product that works better for what you need way faster than a big brand. So that's number one. The next is that they're so close to the community's needs.
Like, so many people, especially in Lloyd's community, but also in founded outdoors, were literally like we just talked about on the PCT and they decided to do this thing or they were trying to go camping with their baby and they're like, I'm going to get Costco blankets and put it together. And now they have a business that does that. So they're so close to what we actually need. And they're also open to feedback a lot of the time.
And that's incredible. I'm just going to keep going.
And so then they also drive economic development in these local areas, whether it be tourism or even like Melanzana in Leadville. Like Leadville, Colorado has become more on the map because of Melanzana, which is an outdoor apparel brand.
Colin True
00:32:38.410 - 00:32:40.770
They've been around for a long time too. Not emerging, I would say say.
Emily Holland
00:32:40.850 - 00:33:00.050
So I just like there's these real clear benefits to purchasing from a small brand that one should think about when you're making those purchasing decisions. And listen, I know it's more convenient sometimes to get the big brand. Like, we all have big brands. We get it.
But just thinking about that when you need something for your next trip, I think is. Is really important.
Lloyd Vogel
00:33:00.290 - 00:33:03.010
It's also just like not that much more expensive if.
Colin True
00:33:03.090 - 00:33:03.410
Right.
Lloyd Vogel
00:33:03.410 - 00:34:10.090
If it's not even cheaper. Like, I mean, I think there is a mystique that small brands come with a premium price point, but not always.
A lot of times they don't have wholes margins that are built into it. So there's less of a need.
I mean like we see it with fabric design of like we have companies that are kind of in the cottage space that are, that are making packs out of cool fabrics and they're expensive. But then you see a bigger company come in using that same fabric, it's twice as expensive.
There's a reason why it's twice as expensive is because it has keystone pricing built into it and because that big brand has to have. Have you know, a 50% margin to be able to get into the brick and mortar retail spaces that they, that they want to be able to navigate.
And you know, your, your favorite small brand that makes packs on Instagram doesn't need that. They just need to be able to justify the fabric costs and their labor costs. And that's. That oftentimes is like.
So I don't know, it's not always just like I'm kind of tired of the narrative of oh, it's so expensive to be able to support small brands and be like, well, not really. I mean, unless you're comparing it to like TEMU prices, well then everything's expensive.
Colin True
00:34:10.090 - 00:34:12.050
Compared to that bullshit, you know? You know.
Lloyd Vogel
00:34:12.050 - 00:34:12.850
Yeah, totally.
Colin True
00:34:13.490 - 00:34:26.250
So I guess, you know, last thing, guys. So where's are any things happening this fall anything we should be promoting?
What's, you know, obviously we'll put all the links, everything in the show notes, but are you guys going to be at any of the fall shows? Like what's going on in the next in the upcoming months here with founded Outdoors?
Lloyd Vogel
00:34:26.250 - 00:34:37.870
Oh, well, I have a, I have a hot take that I want to, that I want to share. Colin, because in you sharing the show notes with me, it made me think about things and then we didn't talk about. So now I want.
Colin True
00:34:37.870 - 00:34:40.270
Did I skip a topic? No.
Emily Holland
00:34:41.150 - 00:34:42.110
I'm so nervous.
Colin True
00:34:42.110 - 00:34:45.870
I know, me too. Like I thought I pretty. Pretty light show notes.
Lloyd Vogel
00:34:48.110 - 00:36:07.860
Brand versus product. And the idea that, and this is, you know, terrible content, you can cut it.
But the notion that I think it's for small brands, it's so much easier to be able to lead with a product first as opposed to, you know, the, the brand identity and messaging at Garage. Like we don't even hop on the phone with a brand until we've been able to see samples of what that, of what that product is.
And I think a lot of small brands that are not successful are ones that kind of lean too heavily on the small brand narrative that use the like, oh, we're small, support us, we're small. But in reality, like people like to be able to support small brands.
But they what they want more so than a small brand is a product that they're really stoked about. So I think it's like that combination of like a product that you're really stoked about with a brand story that resonates.
But if you're product sucks and your brand story is great, you still have a probably a non viable brand. And I think that that is something that is like very real.
And I think it took me at Garage Grown a long time to realize like it's not enough of a value proposition just to be small. You have to be able to differentiate and add value in other ways.
And if you just lean on the fact of support small businesses, you're going to lose to the big businesses because they're going to crush you in a bunch of other different ways. Ways.
Colin True
00:36:08.100 - 00:36:50.320
Yeah, I totally, I mean like it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing because I think the brand directive and understanding who your brand is that will absolutely allow you a much longer Runway to grow to be a bigger brand.
But if all you're doing is sort of like marketing yourself, like, hey, look at us, small and scrappy, like no, no, tell me why your product rules and why it's going to make a difference in my life. Like, let's start there and then we can figure out the rest. It reminds me of what was the part of.
Was it venture out, the part of outdoor retailer that always had the up and coming brand brands which mostly felt like it was sort of, sort of like Portland designer designing like 80 brands and you're like, none of these people were gonna make it. I just sort of felt like, you know, just never. Maybe most of them did. I don't know.
Just there was always felt like I felt like the most hopeless area of the show to me. I'm like, oh, you guys, you tried so hard.
Emily Holland
00:36:50.320 - 00:36:53.440
Iori was in there. Viori and Mir were.
Colin True
00:36:53.440 - 00:36:54.320
They were like.
Emily Holland
00:36:54.320 - 00:36:55.440
Which was crazy.
Colin True
00:36:55.440 - 00:36:56.760
That is hilarious to think about.
Lloyd Vogel
00:36:56.760 - 00:37:06.900
Yeah, that's why it always felt like you were kind of getting gaslit when you went to that venture out because it was like, wait, this is not the small brands in the industry. These are like mass VC backed.
Colin True
00:37:06.900 - 00:37:08.900
Like you'd look at V and be.
Lloyd Vogel
00:37:08.900 - 00:37:10.100
Like, know that we exist.
Colin True
00:37:10.100 - 00:37:31.320
Yeah, they'll make it. But then you see like, here's another brand with like arrows in the logo and you're like, okay guys, like this is not gonna, Here's a, a hatchet.
Like, okay, we know what you're all about. Like you won't be here next show, you know. But no, I think it's a fair point. Don't rely on these sort of small brand narrative to carry.
Like it's always. It's always about making a difference in the consumer. Why is my life better? Because of what you're doing.
Emily Holland
00:37:31.470 - 00:37:31.710
Doing.
Colin True
00:37:31.710 - 00:37:42.590
Why am I safer going in the outdoors? Why am I warm, warm, cool, dry or safe in the outdoors? Make that bargain with me and I will be invested in your product. That's always what. That's.
That. That's the equation that matters.
Lloyd Vogel
00:37:43.310 - 00:37:53.510
I mean, it's the same as like you've talked about this on the pod before, but kind of with sustainability factors of like people love a good sustainable product, but they don't like it if the product's not as good as the non sustainable.
Colin True
00:37:53.510 - 00:37:54.950
It has to be gift with purchase of it.
Lloyd Vogel
00:37:54.950 - 00:38:08.020
Yeah, like it's, it's. It's got to be an. And I think that that also works with, for, for small brands of it's got products got to be really good.
And then you can get to the narrative. But yeah.
Colin True
00:38:08.020 - 00:38:09.300
So where are you guys going to be this fall?
Emily Holland
00:38:14.020 - 00:38:15.220
This is what you signed up for.
Colin True
00:38:16.100 - 00:38:18.580
You guys, I love having you best. I missed you both so much.
Emily Holland
00:38:20.900 - 00:38:23.460
I think Lloyd has a more intense travel schedule.
Colin True
00:38:23.540 - 00:38:25.740
He typically does. He's like captain of the trade shows.
Lloyd Vogel
00:38:27.490 - 00:38:38.930
I'm gonna be at. Well, by the time this episode airs, I'll have just gotten back from the core outdoor summit up in Kimberly, Canada, where your boy is keynoting.
Emily Holland
00:38:38.930 - 00:38:39.570
Whoa.
Colin True
00:38:40.290 - 00:38:43.090
Stand back. Coming for Lloyd's on your corner.
Lloyd Vogel
00:38:43.650 - 00:38:57.410
Watch out. Too late. If anyone was thinking about not going now that they heard that, it's too late because it's in the past. But yeah, I'm going to Goa.
I'll be at the. The running events, all the hits.
Colin True
00:38:58.910 - 00:38:59.550
You're gonna be everywhere.
Lloyd Vogel
00:38:59.550 - 00:39:01.270
There's something supposed to be awesome.
Colin True
00:39:01.270 - 00:39:06.590
Anything, Emily, Anything coming up with found outdoors that people should be aware of or just more like resources to get people involved who want to be.
Emily Holland
00:39:08.030 - 00:40:00.130
I'll just mention that we did a small business, small outdoor business benchmarking survey this year with a large executive summary and the full report is available for purchase.
So you can find that@founded outdoors.com so if you're like wanting to get some intel on the market right now and what small businesses are up against or you're a small business and you want to feel like you're less alone, that's a great thing to download. As far as events this fall, we're doing a lot of partnerships.
So we were Katie and how the co founders and I, we're going to be all doing a lot, a lot of stuff going on with Wisconsin, with California. Katie's in Michigan right now at a conference. So a lot of travel, a lot of partnership stuff happening. So that's always exciting.
I don't think I have any events. Maybe Tre, if Lloyd will pay me to go. But yeah, we'll try to figure that out.
Lloyd Vogel
00:40:00.850 - 00:40:01.490
Love it.
Emily Holland
00:40:02.130 - 00:40:04.450
I'm trying to just shoehorn my way in.
Lloyd Vogel
00:40:07.090 - 00:40:10.530
That was a very Gen X reference right there. Shoehorn your way.
Emily Holland
00:40:10.850 - 00:40:15.010
Does. Does Jen even know what a shoehorn is like? No, no, they could never.
Colin True
00:40:15.490 - 00:40:23.890
Listen, let's not wait so long to have you both back on again. We're going to pick another topic, bring you back on soon. So thank you both so much for being here and love having you on.
It's always good to see you both.
Lloyd Vogel
00:40:23.890 - 00:40:24.650
Thanks, Colin.
Emily Holland
00:40:24.650 - 00:40:29.410
Bye. It's time for a party shot.
Colin True
00:40:31.650 - 00:40:59.720
All right, welcome back to the parting shot brought to you today by Garage Grown Gear, your home for outdoorsy gear here on the Rock Fight Podcast network.
Go shopping@garagegrown gear.com and in honor of Emily joining the show today, I wanted to touch base on something pop culture related because just recently an iconic artist put out a highly anticipated album. Now, this is a person who has been in our lives for a long time.
Someone whose music is just as integral to modern life in 2025 as it has been for years.
Emily Holland
00:40:59.870 - 00:41:00.110
Years.
Colin True
00:41:00.750 - 00:42:37.220
Someone who was pretty universally loved, even if they've had some divisive moments. I am of course talking about Jeff Tweedy and his new 30 track magnum opus, Twilight Override.
And look, I'll be honest, I like Uncle Tupelo more than Sun, Volt or Wilco. But there are parts about all three bands that I love. And I haven't spent much time with Tweety, the solo artist as of yet.
But I still wanted to take in this new album and I enjoyed listening to Twilight Override over overall, even if I felt like it was pretty hit or miss for me. Some tracks, like New Orleans, just absolutely killed it, while others, like Lou Reed was my babysitter, left me kind of wanting more.
But overall, I know we can all agree that this is the album that we have been waiting for in 2025 and I was happy to spend some time with it. All right, that's the show for today. Thank you to my guests Emily Holland and Trader Lloyd Vogel.
The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Rock Fight llc. I'm Colin True. Thank you for listening. And back again to take us out. It's Krista Makes with the rock fight fight song. Will see you next time.
Rock fighters. Welcome to the rock fight? Where we speak our truth, Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree? Agree to disagree?
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews, Ideas that aim for the head? This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth.
Emily Holland
00:42:37.220 - 00:42:40.260
Rock fight, Rock fight, Rock fight?
Colin True
00:42:40.580 - 00:42:46.510
Welcome to the rock side? Welcome to the rock flight?
Emily Holland
00:42:46.670 - 00:42:50.750
Rock flight? Rock fight? Rock flight?
Colin True
00:42:50.910 - 00:42:52.910
Rock fight, Rock fight?
Emily Holland
00:42:53.230 - 00:43:02.430
Welcome to the rock fight? Rock fight? Rock fight, Rock fight.
