Taking The Temperature Of Outdoor Culture

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Today Colin is joined by the host of Open Container, outdoor journalist Doug Schnitzspahn, to check in on where outdoor culture sits halfway through 2025.

Since the launch of Open Container in January Doug has had 26 conversations with artists, musicians, authors, brand founders and many others who operate in or around the outdoor community. Today he and Colin find out what he's learned so far and how it reflects on the broader outdoor world.

For The Parting Shot, Colin previews his trip to next week's Outdoor Market Alliance Media Event and makes a prediction about Superman.

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Episode Transcript:

Colin True

00:00:00.320 - 00:00:53.980

Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.

I'm Colin True and today on the show we're talking to Doug Schnitzbahn about what he's uncovered about the outdoor community in 2025.

But before we get to that next week, we'll be back on Monday with outdoor industry insider Owen Comerford as well as creative and brand expert producer Dave with our leading coverage of the outdoor industry. Next Tuesday, you're going to get an all new episode of Open Container hosted by the aforementioned Doug Schnitzbahn.

Make sure you follow open contain container on your favorite podcast app. And lastly, hey, do you want some Rock Fight stickers?

All you need to do is head over to Apple Podcasts, leave a written review, send a screenshot of that review to myrockfightmail.com and we'll send you a bunch of different Rock Fight stickers. In fact, if you do it for Open Container, we'll do that for you too. So send us your screenshots, we'll send you stickers. Thanks for your support.

We love you guys. And stick around. We'll be right back.

Chris DeMakes

00:00:53.980 - 00:00:57.740

Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.

Colin True

00:01:00.730 - 00:02:32.230

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Colin True

00:03:19.940 - 00:03:44.420

Check out all of the hits from Fitz on their Spotify playlist. And now back to the show. All right, today's episode of the Rock Fights presented by Lem's Footwear.

Learn more about Lem's range of versatile footwear featuring over 30 thoughtfully designed styles by heading to Lem's Lem Shoes.com and Doug Schnitzbach is here. He's a journalist, a publisher, and he's of course the host of Open Container, the podcast here on the Rock Fight Podcast Network.

What's happening, Doug?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:03:44.740 - 00:03:46.180

Always good to be Rock fighting.

Colin True

00:03:46.670 - 00:03:47.630

It is, right?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:03:48.110 - 00:03:48.510

Yeah.

Colin True

00:03:48.510 - 00:03:50.790

Just slinging stones at people, breaking the.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:03:50.790 - 00:03:52.750

Occasional window and then running.

Colin True

00:03:52.750 - 00:04:04.990

We were just talking about the Black Sabbath concert last weekend, the tribute concert, and I was telling you that I think Guns N Roses needs to hang him up. By Axl continuing to sing. Is he throwing rocks or is he taking his lumps?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:04:06.510 - 00:04:39.800

Poor, poor Bill Belly. Poor Axl. You know, I once heard Guns N Roses descrimed as the last gasp of the 80s. And, and that was kind of it.

They were the most momentary band maybe of all time. Uh, yeah, it's sad. It's sad what happens when, when you don't evolve, right, when you have to, like, move on.

I think we were talking about that how I, I love what Robert Plan has done where he's not kind of trying to go out there and, you know, stick A sausage down his shorts and still screech doing Led Zeppelin songs badly. But, you know, he's working with Alison Krause. He's evolving, he's moving on. He's knowing where he's at. That's a cool way to be.

Colin True

00:04:40.290 - 00:05:41.580

Guns N Roses podcast coming next from Rock Fight. All right, this episode is scheduled to come out on Friday, July 11, which means that Doug's podcast, Open Container, it's pushing six months old.

It's released 26 episodes. If you haven't checked out Open Container yet, first, you should.

Second, the concept of the show is the stuff that Doug is curious about when it comes to the outdoor world.

And he's interested in exploring the intersection of business, sport, conservation, culture, politics, all those things that pertain to the outdoors and how those things pertain to the outdoors.

To that end, he's out on guests like Greta Morgan, who's a musician, Cody Chamberlain, who's an artists, as well as business folks like our own Owen Comerford, Gigi from nara. Just a great group of guests talking about stuff that affects outdoorsy people.

And since I'm always looking at exploring the outdoor condition here in the Rock Fight, I thought we'd look back on the first 26 episodes to get a temperature check where the outdoor community sits halfway through 2025. And who's better to have opinions on this than you at this point, Doug?

I mean, you were already pretty entrenched in this beforehand, but 26 episodes in, I imagine you've learned a few more things.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:05:41.820 - 00:06:47.840

Yeah, definitely.

And I think the whole idea of Open Container when we started out was having a broader net for the outdoor industry like we see, you know, I think we talk about it, right? Hollywood's always still. They're still using the frame pack, right, for when people are outdoors.

And that's what, you know, 50 years outdated or something like that. So outdoors and even on, you know, I think we've talked about it with guests, too, how, you know, conservation, outdoor, all this stuff is.

It's really pushed to the side as a niche. But I think what we've seen, even post Covid especially, is that outdoors is part of the fabric of everybody's life. Everybody wants to get outdoors.

Five million people go to Zion, right?

Anyone, if you want a break from work, if you want a break from screens, you know, gets outside to a park or bikes or hikes or exercises, I think that everywhere, from mountain towns to New York City, Louisiana, which were the top outdoor towns that are outdoor draft winner Shantae Fucking Shantae. According to. Yeah, according to. According to you folks. According to the listeners.

Colin True

00:06:48.000 - 00:06:48.560

That's right.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:06:48.560 - 00:07:16.050

The person who picked LA and New York as their top outdoor towns won.

But I think that says something about the outdoor space and that says something about what we want open container to, you know, really speak to is that outdoors is, is not some little niche. It's really part of all of our lives.

And with a rapidly shrinking planet, with ecological catastrophe facing us every day, it really should be a lot more of what we talk about.

Colin True

00:07:16.290 - 00:07:30.530

You know, we've said this repeatedly in various forms, but I think it just, you just sort of surmised it for me the right way. I love. Now, it's funny thinking about people calling the outdoors or the outdoor industry a niche.

Like, how can anything this be worth at minimum, billions of dollars? Be a niche, number one. Right.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:07:30.770 - 00:07:32.530

Trillion, if you put everything right.

Colin True

00:07:32.530 - 00:08:19.480

So, you know, depending. Even in the individual niche categories are still hundreds of millions, if not billions of dol.

And then you're right, totally, like altogether over a trillion dollars. Also, how could it be a niche if we know that chemically and biologically we all do better by going outside?

Because that's our background, that's our lineage, that's where we came from. Like, there's all the science around what happens to your body when you're standing by a body of.

To your body when you're standing by a body of water. Right. I mean, this isn't like made up stuff.

And now the core might be like, it's like we are the doing these really super crazy hardcore outdoor things. Good on you. And we know that you're pushing a lot of things forward. But ultimate day, like, it's not a niche. Like this is.

We know that going outside is just good for you. And so it's kind of funny that we have to like justify how we talk about this stuff because we're so used to being inside now.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:08:20.040 - 00:08:58.030

Yeah, we're not, we're not binary creatures. Right. We're not made to, you know, we're not made to just be in front of screens.

We're not made to do this hell routine we have to do of overworking, of punching keyboards, of being within these weird structures. That's not really how this organism that we are functions. Right.

So outdoors is not, you know, we got to this point, I think, where we were able, you know, and I think that Ben Goldfarb and I talked a lot about this. You know, we evolved to a point where we have dominion over nature and we think that's normal but really, it's not. It's not.

Colin True

00:08:58.030 - 00:08:58.790

It's really not.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:08:58.790 - 00:09:14.390

No, it's really not. And it affects us. It's why there's so much, you know, there's so much depression and uncertainty and. And people can't find grounding.

You know, you have to. As the saying goes, everyone likes to say, go touch grass. Right. It's that simple.

Colin True

00:09:14.550 - 00:09:37.270

Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, we're kind of doing some of your learnings here before we get into the learning. So we broke it into the categories.

We're going to talk about business, sport. We're going to talk about. Wait, I lost it there. Oh, culture and politics and policy. So let's start with business.

Since this is more of an industry kind of bent we have here on the Rock Fight. Who have you had on? Like, what have you been learning about sort of the business of the outdoors?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:09:37.570 - 00:11:03.290

Yeah, I think it's a great thing to talk about. And this is a place where we wanted to be really careful. Right.

Because as you said, what we do here, Rock Fight is more the insidery business podcast.

So I think with Open Container, we wanted to be careful when we talk about business to make sure it was really wide open that anyone would be interested in it, not just the inside audience. At the same time, a lot of knowledgeable people are coming over from Rock Fight and listening to Open Containers Container.

So we also want to make sure that, you know, we're getting info that will appeal to anyone who is deep in the outdoor business. And one thing I think I've learned from years working in the outdoor industry and the outdoor business is that it's not like any other industry.

And you would see that when people, you know, at Outdoor Retailer or something, when people would come over from some other, you know, industry or corporate world, they'd be like, I like this shit. Like, I want to be here. You got Michael Franti playing in the aisle. You got people having beers.

But more than that, you've got people who are in business for reasons beyond simply looking at a spreadsheet, simply making money. There's real passion, and as usual, all of us would rather be playing than working most of the time anyway.

So we're trying to find a way to be able to do both those things, trying to find a way to do good as well. So what do you want? You want to talk about some of the guests we've had on and what we've learned?

Colin True

00:11:03.290 - 00:11:07.970

Yeah. So who are some of the guests and some of the things, some of the learnings that you've taken away from some of those guests.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:11:07.970 - 00:12:40.590

Yeah, well, obviously, I mean, one of the first people I wanted to have on because he's always fascinated me in his approach and I think is a cool guy, was Mike Carey and his daughter Danica. And, you know, Colin and I are both big football fans, and Mike, obviously is one groundbreaking NFL ref. He was there for the helmet catch.

Source of despair for Colin and source of joy for me as a Giants fan. But so here's this guy who was in this very. You know, he was a football player. He's one of the best refs NFL's ever had. I'm pretty certain he.

Certain he was the first black referee to be a head referee in the Super Bowl. But I really wanted to get him on because I knew that the way he ran his brand, Cirrus Outdoor Gear, he was also a passionate skier. Right.

And the way he ran his brand was really informed by what he learned playing sports, being in the NFL. And he has this really amazing collaborative way to get everyone at Cirrus to work together.

And that was great to see, and it seems very indicative of outdoor snow sports kind of world. And his daughter is also equally great. Brings in a kind of fresh perspective.

And it's always great to see when a family business can work together where she kind of went out and did her own thing and loved playing in the outdoors, but then came back to the brand that was in her living room when she grew up.

Colin True

00:12:40.670 - 00:12:57.710

So Cirrus is kind of. I mean, they're a pretty established brand. I wouldn't say they're the most recognizable brand in the industry.

When you're up against such, like, big names like, you know, like TNF or Patagonia, whatever. But they. But I mean, you go to an outdoor shop, there's a good chance they're going to have accessories from Cirrus on the shelves.

They've been around for a long time. Mike was the founder of it.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:12:58.110 - 00:12:58.510

And.

Colin True

00:12:58.980 - 00:13:09.860

But then you've also had some small folks on as well, right? You had Gigi from Nara on. We've talked with a lot of love around what Nara's doing here on the rock fight.

So what was that conversation like, talking to Gigi?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:13:09.860 - 00:14:36.460

Yeah, having Gigi on was really great because she really excites me with her kind of passion and dedication to what she's doing. And, you know, as you know, Nora was originally Shefly. And as I always say, one of the great things about the outdoor industry is innovation.

You continue to see innovation because people are making products to fix A need that they see out in the field. And I think that, you know, that's one of the things I miss the most about the big trade shows being gone.

I think we're seeing a little more of it now with Switchback and even at Grassroots Connect. You know, it's really important to see these small brands with an idea that responds to a need. And I love how Gigi did that. She was a the.

Was she the only, I think, in a team of guides in Alaska, female guide or guide with female body parts, and was annoyed with how hard it was to pee, which makes a lot of freaking sense. And it's shocking, shocking to know that no one had really responded to that need.

So she founded a business that is not just doing that, but also, I think doing what a naked brand needs to do and creating a good ethos and great style and that young energy and passion that she brings to her work is just amazing.

Colin True

00:14:36.780 - 00:15:07.190

You covered the industry in the past. You wrote for Snooze back in the day. You've been doing gear reviews for a long time.

All those things, you've been in the culture of the industry as well as the community.

When you hear from a more established brand like Cirrus, and then you follow it up with a conversation, like with what Gigi's trying to do, which she has a totally duh kind of product, like, why hasn't this existed before? Kind of product. But it's also still, like, it's early days for them. The future is yet to be written for what happens with that brand.

What does it tell you about what's happening in the industry right now?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:15:07.990 - 00:16:30.760

Yeah, well, I think that innovation still matters. I mean, I think it's really hard to know anything of what's going on in the industry right now because we're in such chaos and whiplash.

But I do think that that's true.

I do think that big brands obviously can absorb a lot of the hard hits, but I believe economies are like water, that they'll swell up and flow wherever they need to go. And I think that small innovators, people coming up with new ideas and people able to work at small scale, and Gigi herself said this.

They're pretty nimble, right? So they can react to stuff quickly. So I think in a way, we might see more small brands pop up more small, new ideas in this time period.

I like to say my daughter's into this idea of Goth Corp, right? Bringing some kind of goth girl style to outdoor stuff. She works at the Arcteric store. Here in Boulder and brings that out.

But I think there's a lot of room for these just new, small, fun ideas, obviously, as well as hyperlocal ideas too. And then a brand like Sirius, I mean, I think they're doing well because they're focused.

I think anytime you're focused on innovation and fulfilling a need, you should do well in economy. And their teamwork, I think is so good too.

Colin True

00:16:31.160 - 00:16:37.160

So you also had our guy, Owen Comerford on. Is it nepotism to talk about Owen being on your show too?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:16:37.800 - 00:16:40.840

Is it a nepotism having me on this show doing this right now?

Colin True

00:16:40.840 - 00:16:41.160

Right.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:16:41.960 - 00:16:48.980

People are listening. Like, what is this? What is this? Like, this is like. Is this like a clip reel? Dude, this is like the clip reel show.

Colin True

00:16:49.780 - 00:16:53.180

This is the Remember when episode, the mid season episode of the sitcom.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:16:53.180 - 00:16:59.619

There's only one bad episode of Star Trek the Next Generation and it is the clip reel episode. Have you ever seen this real?

Colin True

00:16:59.619 - 00:17:00.260

What were they looking?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:17:00.260 - 00:17:02.420

Oh, my God, it's freaking horrible. Like right here.

Colin True

00:17:02.500 - 00:17:13.340

How disappointed you were back in the day when you didn't know what was coming because, like TV was rigging, you didn't know what was going to be on every week. And then it just, you're like, ah, I gotta wait a whole lot of the week for a new episode. Because this is a, like, look back, right?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:17:13.340 - 00:17:17.039

So let's not make this a clip real. It's like, try to bring something good in here, right?

Colin True

00:17:17.199 - 00:17:19.479

Yeah. All right. Owen was good. We can move on.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:17:19.479 - 00:18:24.210

No, Owen was great. And I think when Owen. I was glad to, you know, Owen is, you know, such a professional and does so well.

I was glad to kind of push into Owen a little more and really kind of figure out more what makes him tick. One of the great things, you know, it's always great to get response when you put your stuff out there, right?

And usually, I mean, having worked in media and stuff, I know most of the response, the people who really want to speak up don't have good things to say. But it was great to see some positive response.

After Owen was on, Bill Byrne of Remedy PR reposted a quote he said, which was, if I cover up the brand, can you tell who made it?

As a really great piece of insight coming from Owen, as a former CEO of retail, as a former buyer, and I thought that was a great thing for Bill to notice and a great thing for Owen to say and really a great thing think about is you really do have to, you know, stand out and have a brand that grabs people right yeah, yeah.

Colin True

00:18:24.530 - 00:18:59.190

That's the reality of the whole sameness we talk about. Right. And so if you that, then that's a, you know, not to take a shot at Steo. But, like, I think about, like, that's.

I walked first time I walked into a steel store, and it's kind of the first thing I thought is, like, who is this? This looks like it could be any outdoor brand.

And, like, and they make really quality good stuff, but it is, like, what's the thing that makes them different? And I'm sure if, you know, someone from their company wanted to call me, they'd kind of walk me through what it is.

But, like, I just remember having same kind of feeling of, like, I'm not sure who you guys are, like, what it is about you I'm supposed to take away. So I think that's a. That's a really important and. And it's a distinction in terms of how you're going to grow. So. All right, enough about Owen.

Let's move on to sport.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:18:59.190 - 00:19:01.950

Dude, I talked about, dude, I'm wearing a Steo shirt.

Colin True

00:19:02.350 - 00:19:19.050

Hey. So there you go. It's the schnitzbond line from Steo. Sorry, Steve. I'm not trying to, like, rip you down, but, you know, just.

Just saying, like, it's a lot of. There's a lot of stuff that looks the same in the industry, so being able to be distinct is important, but. All right, moving on to sport.

What did you have? Who did you have on that you consider more in the sport category?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:19:19.130 - 00:19:43.290

I mean, we had an Olympic champion on, right. We had not just an Olympic champion, an Olympic pioneer in Billy Demong, which I was really excited to have him on.

And I was so surprised by how approachable and fun and really cool he was. You know, Billy Demong is the first. We better double check this. But I think he's the first American to win a Nordic medal.

Colin True

00:19:44.150 - 00:19:44.950

I think so. Yeah.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:19:45.030 - 00:20:49.160

Gold medal. Yeah. In Nordic combined, which is a wacky sport anyway, where you're ski jumping and then Nordic racing. Right.

And he loved the wackiness of it, and it was really a treat to be able to talk to him. And what did we learn from him? First I learned to.

You know, I love talking to him because I was a competitive athlete in high school, and I think that, you know, as a super competitive athlete and at burned me out when I did it because all I ended up doing as a runner, I was in track. 800 meters was my big event, and eventually all I ended up was doing was running Just to compete, just to win and miss doing stuff I love doing.

I loved basketball, baseball. I missed out on a lot of that because it was so competitive. And now I'm like, I can't compete because if I compete, I have to win.

And if I don't train, you know, I'm not going to win if I'm not there, I have to win. And then I talked to this guy who is a gold medalist and he was like, fuck that. Just go have fun. Just go do it. And he told us.

Colin True

00:20:49.320 - 00:20:49.880

What did he.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:20:49.880 - 00:21:01.840

He told us he competed in some, you know, small race or something. I think it was a crit, right? It was a bike race. And like he came in last and he didn't care. And I was like, well, thank you, Billy.

I think I'm going to go compete. Just have fun in something now Doug's.

Colin True

00:21:01.840 - 00:21:11.260

Fun to enter his, his 5K age of his life. He's going to start to see ripping off 5Ks. Actually, it's why we hired you here to do up a container because we wanted you to win at podc.

We knew you were wired that way.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:21:11.260 - 00:21:20.420

I am wired that way. Like, I am wired that way. I do want to win in podcasting, so please sign up and five star ratings only. I look at my ratings every day.

Colin True

00:21:20.660 - 00:21:21.620

All the other podcast.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:21:21.700 - 00:21:29.460

Where are the ratings? Give me the ratings. Come on, let's win. Let's beat, you know, let's beat everyone. Unfortunately, I'm very competitive. People might not know that.

Colin True

00:21:29.460 - 00:22:18.480

Yeah, it's funny though, talk about sport and athletes because, I mean, that's actually a category in outdoor podcast that I have the least time for because it feels like just if you listen to most outdoor athletes on a podcast, it's largely uninteresting and you can almost predict the story because you get the like.

And part of that's the kind of the host in the show's fault as well, because they don't really establish an interesting premise or why this person's on, other than they're just a notable name in sport. So let's have them on. And I thought that was sort of the interesting thing about Billy coming on.

Cause I was wondering like, okay, he's an athlete, he won a gold medal. That's cool.

But it was the stuff that you guys dug into like that about like, hey, no, it's just like, here's what I'm doing now in my life after the Olympics. If we just hadn't swapped Olympic stories for an hour, maybe that's not that interesting. Right?

But the fact is, you got to that place where you're taking, you were not expecting to walk away from that conversation going, hey, maybe I should go do a trail running race. You know, like, you weren't thinking about it.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:22:18.480 - 00:22:23.280

Not at all. Exactly. Yeah. I haven't entered one yet, but I will, Billy, I promise.

Colin True

00:22:24.000 - 00:22:25.240

Well, you have to now.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:22:25.240 - 00:23:21.620

I don't know, archery or something. I say that about yoga, too. Like, especially in Boulder. Like, sometimes you see people doing yoga, you're like, dude, there's no winning in yoga.

You can't win yoga. That's why it's a good thing to do. Yeah.

Well, I mean, I'd say one more thing about Billy, though, and what he had to say that was great was when he talked about the reason why they were able to create an Olympic program that won was that they stopped trying to do it like, the way the Norwegians were or the way someone else was. And they really embraced this unique way of them doing it as the American team. And I think that. I think the great thing about sports.

You and I could do a sports podcast, right? I always love sports analogies, but I think that you can really learn how to approach the rest of your life from sports.

And that was a great life lesson that he had, really, is you've got to just do it your own way. You got to not try to copy, you know, and that's the key to building your success, is being you.

Which sounds super cliched and obvious, but you gotta remind yourself of those things often, too.

Colin True

00:23:21.860 - 00:23:43.860

All right, so I think probably the topic where you've had maybe the most interesting conversations has been around conservation. And that's not because it was. We set out to do it that way, but just because of what's been happening in the world, it sort of has ended up that way.

That it's like, you know, public lands has become a kind of a featured thing the last few months for all of us. And so that has led to a lot of really interesting conservation conversations. You had what's happened on the conservation front on open container?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:23:43.860 - 00:24:19.490

Yeah, it has been. Been interesting. And I think part of it was we didn't, you know, we want this prag, this podcast to be pretty broad.

We didn't want it just to be reporting on conservation news all the time. But on the other hand, with the assault, we are all of a sudden seen on things we care about.

Selling off public lands, defunding national parks, firing the people who, you know, take care of and manage public lands, getting rid of firefighters when we're seeing this assault, all of a sudden, I feel like we have a duty. There's nothing else we can do but speak up and have guests on.

Colin True

00:24:19.570 - 00:24:22.210

And we have a platform, so we have to use our voices. For sure.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:24:22.210 - 00:24:34.850

Yeah. And we've had so many great guests on Drew Simmons, Rachelle Schrute. Recently I talked to Ben Goldfarb, who has an incredible book about beavers.

Colin True

00:24:35.010 - 00:24:37.650

Bonkers conversation. Just bonkers conversation.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:24:37.650 - 00:24:46.230

Oh, yeah.

We talked about being tricked into drinking the juice from a beaver's anal gland, which you'll have to listen to the podcast to get the details on that.

Colin True

00:24:47.350 - 00:24:48.310

That's so gross.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:24:52.630 - 00:25:48.900

But, yeah, I mean, conservation, I think conservation is the bedrock for all of us. Right. And that's what we saw. That's what we saw with the public land sell off.

You know, that I think that Mike Lee was a Republican senator who had some underhanded motives going into these sell offs. And he's been so used to being in a red state and just having Republican conservative, you know, certain demographics support him.

But we found out that it doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't matter if you're Republican, Democrat, conservative, liberal, even, even libertarians. You know, people love their public lands.

People really love their public lands. It's the bedrock of who you are. If you're.

If you like to skid stuff up on an atv, if you like to, you know, backpack and complete silence in wilderness, you know, there's this bedrock where we all unite. And that was really great to see.

Colin True

00:25:49.060 - 00:26:31.870

Yeah. If anyone listening to this is not following Rachelle Schrute, you should.

I mean, she's been on the Rock Fight and she's been on Open Container and she is a big voice in the, you know, the hunt and fish community. She writes for Gear Junkie as their Hunt and fish editor. So a lot of the stuff that she covers, she lives in rural Montana. I mean, she just kind of.

She definitely fits into a specific archetype for a lot of things.

But I think it was really fun getting to know her by having her on both pods and then just watching her just lay waste to the people who were coming after public lands on social media and just giving zero fucks while doing it. Dude, unfollow me, yell at me all you want. This is 100% wrong, and I am going to tell you that it is. And that's what's up. It was great.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:26:32.750 - 00:26:40.950

She is my hero. She is such a fan. Freaking. And she wouldn't care that I said that.

That's the great thing about it, you know, she has grown up in a small town, Montana.

Colin True

00:26:40.950 - 00:26:41.790

She probably like, why?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:26:41.790 - 00:27:41.810

Yeah, she's grown up, you know, she's grown up when it's been hard to put food on the table from her parents for her. She's had a hard time feeding her kids, she's had to hunt for that.

She's dealt with misogyny, she's dealt with bullshit and she is not gonna freaking take it. And I think she's great. And when this stuff came up, I was all like, oh, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do.

And she fucking knew what to do. She basically, she called out, you know, I don't think she used any bad words because she is a good Montana girl. But man, she took it to him.

And she was part of, you know, she was a spearhead for the whole hunting and fishing industry that I think they thought they had in their pocket and that don't piss off the hunters.

They came after this stuff so hard and so bad because these are people who love public land, love conservation, and they know what it's like to run into a no trespassing or keep out sign on private land.

Colin True

00:27:42.370 - 00:28:13.790

So the other side of the conservation is the other thing we're going to talk about, which is policy and politics. But we'll get to that in a second before we continue that part of it. Culture was next. Right. And so I think one of the.

I think culture is an operative word in the description of open container. Right.

It's like the culture of the outdoors kind of going a little deeper than just talking about an athlete or just talking about gear or these kinds of things. Right. Those sort of. Of culture was sort of an important word, I feel like in the sort of brief of what became open container.

So how has that played out in the first 26 episodes?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:28:13.790 - 00:28:29.470

Yeah, I mean, I think obviously every episode is a culture episode in some way. Right. And I think that's what important we call it open container outdoor culture as a free flowing conversation. Right.

Is the tagline that I think I can't claim credit for. I think that was producer Dave who came up with that.

Colin True

00:28:29.880 - 00:28:35.520

Producer Dave getting some love. Not here. Notice he's not here. You and I are often alone a lot lately. Let's call out producer Dave right now.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:28:35.520 - 00:28:36.200

Producer Dave.

Colin True

00:28:36.200 - 00:28:38.440

Let's say producer Dave came to an open container meeting.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:28:38.600 - 00:28:56.680

He just shows up and drops his little bombs. Yeah. So yeah, I mean for culture, I think we've got a lot of guests on too.

And these are the guests I really, you know, really want to have on to show in some ways that outdoors isn't just a niche, that it's a big part of the fabric of everything.

Colin True

00:28:56.840 - 00:28:57.200

Right.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:28:57.200 - 00:30:12.240

One of the first people I really wanted to have on when we started doing this was a musician, Greta Morgan, who I had interviewed for Elevation Outdoors and was just captivated by her story, by her intelligence, by her sensitivity. And Greta Morgan was a musician. She was Springtime Carnivore opening up for Jenny Lewis.

She was traveling around the world, playing huge venues in the traveling band for Vampire Weekend. And then over Covid, she got Covid. She had mold in her house.

And then she ended up with spasmodic dysphonia, where she lost the high end of her voice, lost her identity in a way, what made her be as a musician. And it's really a. Could be a horribly tragic story. But what's so amazing about Greta is she's made it a triumphant story.

And one of the big parts of her healing, of her coming to terms with this was spending time in Zion national park and in the desert and finding healing out there, making instrumental music and kind of redetermining what voice is and what identity is. From her time in the desert, which I just found beautiful and important for all of us to know and see.

Colin True

00:30:12.960 - 00:31:30.110

It's the ultimate kind of outdoor story. It's the outdoor stories I feel like you and I grew up on.

It's the things where these are the kind of stories, Greta's story of this sort of problem that she had and then finding some healing or solve or whatever, however you want to describe it in the outdoors is the kind of stuff we used to get from outside and hooked on the outdoors.

And these magazines that we all loved, like, 20, 30 years ago, because it didn't have to be about scaling a mountain or setting up FKT or any of this stuff, which can be interesting depending on who's doing it. But this was. Here is the outdoors playing an integral role in the healing of an individual, Right? And it's like. And that is sort of.

That's a takeaway that we can all take away, regardless of what our personal interests are. And that's why I think Greta's story from the outdoorsy perspective is fascinating and important.

And, you know, and by the way, even if the outdoors played less of a role, it's still an interesting story because of what she's had to deal with. Think about your livelihood, your career, all of your passions being tied up in your voice.

And then one day you wake up and your voice doesn't work anymore. Like, that's a crazy scenario to kind of find yourself in.

The fact that she was able to help find her way through that challenge because of the outdoors, or at least in part of the outdoors, that's just even more fascinating.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:31:30.750 - 00:31:56.870

Yeah, I think it's the basic. I think you're right. Right. We've got the, you know, we've got the sports side of the outdoors is great, but I mean, what is it that Thoreau said?

I went to the woods to live deliberately. Right. And that's what we can all do, and that's what we all need right now. And that can bring us, you know, focus. It can bring us healing.

It just brings us a better sense of who we are in our brief, brief time in life.

Colin True

00:31:56.950 - 00:32:11.020

You know, we also had polar explorer Erik Larson on, very well known in the outdoor community, been kind of a notable figure in our space for quite some time. But you guys had a really pretty personal conversation.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:32:12.290 - 00:33:19.070

Yeah, I mean, we both started crying during the conversation because Eric has gotten through colon cancer and I've sort of gotten through lymphoma about the same time.

And I think we could have talked about Eric and sport, but I think that really the place to talk about what we discussed is here in culture, because it's the outdoors helping us heal, helping us see what living is when really faced with mortality. Because there's, you know, I've faced mortality. I've almost fallen and died. I've done dumb shit. I've had bike crashes.

You know, I've had those quick accident looks at mortality, or like, you know, wow, I could have died here or something like that. Things happen for sure. But it's a different way you look at mortality when you're facing cancer.

It's more long term, and it's more infused in who you are and what you see and in the way you then start to experience the outdoors and your connection with people.

Colin True

00:33:20.270 - 00:34:08.520

Well, it's more representative of what we're all gonna. The human condition. Right.

I mean, something like cancer is gonna affect however many of us versus those kind of fleeting moments of bad decision making that you kind of walk away from going like, oh, that was a boneheaded decision. I shouldn't have done that. And then you. Maybe you learn from that and you don't do that specific thing again.

But what you and Eric and here listening to you talk, you know, kind of both went through and the perspective you can share and the things you don't, you know, you don't know when your day's gonna. When your number's gonna be called, but here it is kind of facing you.

And not only are you gonna have to face this down, it isn't gonna be over in a second, like surviving a bike fall or a whipper on a cliff or something like that. You know, this is. No, it's gonna take a while, and it's going to be terrible along the way. And hopefully at the end of it, it'll be okay. Right?

That's a tough spot to be.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:34:09.080 - 00:35:19.930

Yeah. And I think one of the things Eric said in our conversation that's really important resonated with me, too.

It's not just the outdoors and being out there. When we talk about the outdoors, it's the outdoor community as well. And it was a beautiful thing.

He told me how Kristin Hossetter, who you had the rock fight recently and I've worked with for a long time, how she would come and pick him up when he was in Boston and take care of him and checked in on him all the time. And I was like, I sent her a message afterwards, almost in tears, being like, kristen, that's beautiful that you did that.

For no other reason than to be in the community. For me, too.

Teresa Baker, who I had on the show, would send me, who I know I've worked with her and know her, but when I was going through chemo, she was sending me texts all the time, checking in, and you're like, wow, that matters. And I think Eric got into that, too. He was like, this polar exploration.

This stuff seems fucking stupid now, but finding this acceptance with people who want to help and the people are there for you is really, really powerful.

And that's what the outdoors does, too, is it creates this incredible community that reaches out over business, over politics, and over health mortality.

Colin True

00:35:20.170 - 00:35:41.990

All right, last one. And again, this is kind of the other side of the coin. Not the other side of the coin.

The partner to the conservation conversation is the politics and policy part of it, because, again, this definitely became a little more dominant in public lands than maybe we anticip when we were conceiving of the show. But, you know, what better time for you to have this platform than the last few months? And I'm sure this will continue as well.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:35:43.350 - 00:37:31.770

Yeah, absolutely. And this is where, you know, I think we really do well as an industry, and we continue to do well, and I think we really saw that.

You know, I had Jessica Turner on recently from Outdoor Recreation Roundtable, and she was really influential in pushing to fight this public land Sell off.

And she was one of the few people who was really in a position to be able to do that because she has built relationships on both sides of the aisle and she helped make a difference, you know, and I think she, you know, what I.

We're here to talk about, like, what I learned from these things and from what I learned from her is that, you know, she really has a commitment to uniting people. Right. To working together, to really working towards the solutions. Right.

You know, the public land selloffs were bad, but she brought up the point that there are these other, you know, know, small, maybe in a couple acres or, you know, 10 acres or something, public land sales that do happen all the time and might need to happen to help the, you know, common sense realities of small rural communities.

And I think we always have to be thinking about that when we push for conservation, for public lands, for everything we have to be thinking about all the people are being affected. And, you know, I, you know, finding some kind of. People hate to hear this. Right, Right.

But inclusivity and equity, you know, on all sides is really important. It's democratic. Right.

So if we want to find democratic ways to manage the outdoors, that means we have to look at compromise and look at everyone's needs and find policy that works together.

I mean, the problem is our current administration just says, I'm going to give a finger to everyone and thinks that's a way to run a democracy, which it's not. And I think they found that out with the pushback against public land sales.

Colin True

00:37:33.360 - 00:38:48.600

Yeah, you've talked about it maybe even on this show, but definitely on Nova Container about how there was a time when I'm like. Because we were talking about it so much, like, should we just pivot and be a public lands podcast?

And I'm glad that we decided that you said, no, I don't want to do that.

Because who knows what the topics are going to be in the future where you'll probably want to go deeper on those over maybe a series of weeks as well, so that the flexibility is important. But it has come to define 2025 tariffs and public lands. I mean, we're in July.

I don't know what else could be added to the mix, but those are be the two things that we talk about the most in the outdoor industry and community probably through the end of the year as well as, you know, again, something else gets thrown our way and. But you know, the. I do think of the. We titled the Caroline Gleich episode. They're fixing to steal youl Land.

And it's like, and it's, you know, that's something that's an. I remember you referenced. That was an older article where you first saw that. And there's a. That's been a phrase.

I feel like it's been around for a long time.

But it does feel like we're really, we have arrived at the moment where all the sort of, of grandstanding or maybe overreacting to things like, you can't say that that's what it is anymore because it's actually happening now.

And so to have these voices on and to have the voices you've been able to feature on the show and kind of, you know, help further that into the zeitgeist here in the outdoor zeitgeist, I think is just really important.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:38:48.680 - 00:38:58.830

Yeah. Because we have to come together as a, you know, we have to show that we're a community. Right. And have to come together as a community, which we are.

And that community includes a whole lot of people.

Colin True

00:38:59.380 - 00:38:59.620

Right.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:39:00.580 - 00:40:34.620

As we've mentioned before. And that's the way to create solutions.

Because politics, people get on both sides, frankly, get wrapped up in their politics and want to just use ideology to solve problems. Ideology doesn't solve problems at all. People getting together. What did Theresa Baker say on the podcast? Make a longer table.

People coming together and talking and working and sometimes having to give stuff up, sometimes not. I mean, that's how things get done, and that's the way things need to get done.

Outdoor spaces are facing a lot of pressure, and that pressure is just going to continue. The pressure for resources, the pressure for places to get away, the pressure to live.

So it's really, really important now that we plan well and take care of these resources. I think that is one thing I learned, too. I found out that in, what was it, the late 50s, early 60s?

I think Eisenhower started it, and then it was during the Kennedy administration, there was a recreation advisory group the federal government got together that was looking at recreation up to the year 2000, thinking about what these resources were going to look like moving forward, how they could be best managed, how people could enjoy them.

And I mean, that's the kind of work we need to be doing now, whether you're Republican, whether you're Democrat, you know, you really need to be working on solutions for these things instead of seeing who can scream the loudest about ideology.

Colin True

00:40:35.740 - 00:41:31.570

Well, and it's also why the notes coming out of the OIA about participation increasing and even if it's casual participation, whatever it is, that's Important, because if you don't understand what you really have in your public lands and maybe you've driven through the west at some point, it just seems like a whole lot of emptiness and nothing. And then someone's like, hey, we can sell that off and solve problems X, Y and Z. It's not a hard argument to make to certain people. And if we don't.

To your point about equity and inclusion, if we don't get more people to.

They don't have to go up and freaking stand on the top of 20,000 foot mountains, but at least understand the value of what having this open space and these public places do for humanity, then, you know, we need. It has to happen. To your point about Theresa, we need that bigger table.

Well, we actually know what we need is the table that was in episode seven of season four of the Bear, because that table went on forever.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:41:35.250 - 00:41:36.170

I love the bear.

Colin True

00:41:36.170 - 00:41:39.730

I love the bear, too. Makes me cry at least three times a season.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:41:40.450 - 00:41:43.410

That's right. It did make me cry, I admit. Yes.

Colin True

00:41:45.010 - 00:41:45.410

Yeah.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:41:45.410 - 00:42:18.650

I mean, exactly. And. And think about it, right? Like I said, like, 5 million people going to Zion National Park. The population of. What's the population of Utah?

Like, just over 3 million, right? Like, and what we're doing, well, we have. We have policymakers now who are pretending. What are they pretending? It's not happening.

You know, like, let's take the restaurant analogy, right?

What if you had a restaurant that had lines out the door every day, that was packed, that people all wanted to go to, people had to go to, you know, and then your idea was, let's lay off half the staff, let's cut down our hours and let's, you know, cut the menu down to two items.

Colin True

00:42:18.650 - 00:42:19.530

Like, right.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:42:19.850 - 00:42:22.330

The worst thing you could absolutely do, right?

Colin True

00:42:22.330 - 00:42:55.020

We have the gatekeepy, outdoorsy people who get mad when, like, you know, Yosemite is really busy. It's like, well, shouldn't you want people to show up and see Yosemite, right?

And like, now it makes it worse when then resources are cut and we can't staff it appropriately and have the, you know, whatever. But it's also that. I don't want to hear that anymore.

I don't want to hear that you're mad that, like, some place is overrun with tourists and they're dirty. It's like, yeah, because they don't know any better. But guess what? They did. They took the initiative to come see it, right?

And who knows how they'll be changed by taking that initiative. You have to approach it that way.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:42:55.660 - 00:43:02.060

You have to manage it. You have to look at reality. This is the reality. There's millions of people coming to national parks and public lands.

Colin True

00:43:02.060 - 00:43:02.260

Right.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:43:02.260 - 00:43:12.930

Because they're spectacular just because you don't want them to, or your ideology doesn't say so, or you think it's some liberal idea. You're not going to, you know, you're going to get the reality of millions of pissed off people this summer.

Colin True

00:43:13.400 - 00:43:14.360

Yep, yep.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:43:14.840 - 00:43:17.000

Don't piss people off. Don't piss hunters off.

Colin True

00:43:17.320 - 00:43:30.560

All right, so that's a lot actually of learning for a six month old podcast. So what's next?

Any summary, any big summary on doing the show and like kind of what you, how you want to see it progress and who you want, the kind of folks you want to have on?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:43:30.560 - 00:44:05.910

Yeah, I mean, I want it to continue to reach more people. Right.

That's the only reason you do anything is to, you know, it's the reason you write, it's the reason you broadcast, is you want to reach people and you want to help other people reach people. Right.

So I think moving forward, we'll continue to use that bedrock of outdoor culture being the main driving principle that gets people on, but we will still COVID policy, politics, sports, business. We'll get all that in there. And I just want people to listen to it and enjoy it and walk away with some kind of learning of their own.

Colin True

00:44:06.860 - 00:44:20.860

Right on, man. Well, we love having it being part of the network here and you're going to have a partner soon.

We have a third podcast hopefully launching in the next month or so. That'll be fun too. So stay tuned for everybody to Rock Fight stuff. Doug, thanks for coming on, man. Good to see you as always.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:44:20.940 - 00:44:22.460

This is awesome. Thanks, Colin.

Colin True

00:44:22.860 - 00:48:21.520

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all right, we have two parting shots today. First, up next Week I will be in Denver to attend the summer edition of the twice annual Outdoor Market Alliance Media event.

Actually, Doug will be there too. I think after last February's edition, Doug and I came on the Rock Fight to give our thoughts about the event. It's an event that we both quite like.

And for those who may not be familiar, the OMA Media event is a two day gathering at the Outdoor Market alliance, which is a place where some of the best sales agencies in the Rockies have a permanent showroom.

And for this event, those reps depart and they let the PR agencies that represent the brands that represent the brands that are there set up to meet with members of the media. So it's sort of like a trade show for media folks.

The brands that are there represent probably around 80, 85% of the open to buy in the outdoor industry. And in the weeks after, you'll see other folks publishing gear reviews and previews.

Some of us, some of our most notable interviews here on the Rock Fight came out of attending oma. Neil Fisk from Black diamond is one and most recently John Grayden from Marmot came on because we met at this event.

And heading into the summer's edition of the event had me thinking about when Doug was on the show a couple of months ago and we talked about the state of outdoor media, how things feel pretty stagnant out there.

So, you know, I want to say that next week while I'm at this event, I'm planning on talking to the folks from the PR agencies who when we're meeting to get their point of view as representatives working on the front line of media and in the outdoors to see what's missing and what needs to evolve. Hopefully some of them will do it live while record their conversations and you'll hear some of their voices here on the Rock Fight. We'll see.

So I'm planning on having those conversations. So that's coming up. And then lastly, my real parting shot, guys, Superman is back in movie theaters.

James Gunn's move to D.C. really kicks off with the release of Superman yesterday because this comes out on Friday and it's a character I've never been a huge fan of. But I'm really excited to see this movie. I'm heading to see it IMAX with my kids the day I'm recording this on Thursday.

So for today's parting shot, I'm going to make a prediction that not only will Superman be the biggest and best superhero movie of the year, I think we'll look back on this film as the moment when D.C. passes Marvel in the race for superhero movie dominance. Now, to be clear, I'm very excited for Fantastic Four, and I've always been a Marvel over DC guy.

I do not like the DC characters as much as I like the Marvel characters. But James Gunn simply gets the tone and balance of these types of movies, and most importantly, he understands the heart of them as well.

Now, I still think Marvel is poised to come back in a big way.

I believe they're back on track, but I also think it will be impossible for them to reach the heights that we got to with Infinity War and Endgame, which will always be a bar that they want to clear and other people expect them to clear, but they will probably be unable to, which will clear the path for dc. And with James Gunn at the helm, I think they can do it. Of course, if the movie sucks, then I'll go back and delete this parting shot forever.

That's why we did two of them today. Just kidding. All right, that's the show. We want your emails. Send them to myrockfightmail.com the Rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight LLC.

For Doug Schnitzbahn, I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. Here he is, just counting the days until Less Than Jake is in San Diego. It's Chris d'. Makes.

He's gonna sing the Rock Fight Fight song. We'll see you next time, Rock Fighters.

Chris DeMakes

00:48:21.600 - 00:49:22.750

Rock Fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.

Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.

We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock Flight.

Rock Flight, Rock Fight welcome to the Rock Flight Rock Flight, Rock Flight welcome to the Rock Flight Rock Flight Rock Flight Rock Flight, Rock Flight, Rock Flight welcome to the Rock Flight Rock Flight Rock Flight Rock Flight Rock Flight Flight.