The Highs, the Lows, and the WTFs of Outdoor PR
- colin7931
- Apr 22
- 40 min read
Today Doug opens the container with outdoor PR pioneer, Chris Goddard.
Doug opens the show talking about outdoor public relations. He highlights the intricate dynamics between outdoor brands and PR as a mechanism that helps to create their success. By sharing his own personal experiences as a working journalist in the outdoor industry, Doug describes how PR is inextricably tied to the outdoor industry.
Doug is then joined by Chris Goddard, a luminary in the industry, who elucidates the essential role of public relations in advocating not only for brands but for the broader outdoor lifestyle itself. Doug and Chris explore the evolution of the outdoor industry, particularly in light of recent societal shifts, and they take a look at the current outdoor media landscape and the importance of cultivating long-lasting relationships within the industry.
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Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:03.520 - 00:05:48.640
Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. I'm a journalist, writer and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I've even eaten putrefied shark in Iceland.
On this podcast we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Let's get some There are few better and more difficult jobs in the outdoor industry than that of outdoor pr.
Who wouldn't want to be there getting their hands on the latest gear from outdoor brands, traveling all over the world, getting to tour factories, sit in on sales meetings, see firsthand how product development works, from idea to testers to supply chain, and of course, to put that innovative new product in the hands of dirtbag journalists like me. When I first came into the outdoor industry, I was surprised with the way some things worked.
As someone who had been more of a hardcore journalist and worked in the environmental world, I saw a lot of guerre largesse going on. I wasn't sure what to think about this at first.
There are still many outlets that would never allow you to go on a press trip with a brand or destination or to accept gear for free. But put it this way, if you're an outdoor journalist, you're not making a lot of money and trips and gear are the perks that keep you in the game.
But it's not just a game. Outdoor PR people are the ones who tell the stories and breathe the life into their clients products.
More than that, PR people have become some of my best friends and the most influential people in this industry. They get out there and live the life.
The first outdoor press trip I went on was with Nike ACG in October 2001, right after 9 11, when there was a lot of uncertainty in the world. I had just been hired by Hooked on the Outdoors magazine and I was sort of shocked by the whole song and dance of a press trip.
I was flown out to Portland, picked up in a limo and driven out to Nike campus where a private guide took me around and showed me things like a statue of Nolan Ryan made entirely of stuff from his garage and he told me that I could sit there and have some time with it. We then went up to Timberline Lodge on Mount Hood where we spent a weekend checking out and learning about new gear.
At one point a Nike employee, maybe even PR person showed up to talk about accusations against the company when it came to child labor and environmental protection.
She had a very proper British accent and the first words out of her mouth as she stared deeply at the campfire were I was talking to my shaman the other day, which almost made me and Dennis Luan, longtime editor at backpacker, crack up out loud. It was just weird. To me, it felt like a bribe going on this trip, getting all sorts of free gear.
Part of the trip was even a shopping spree at the Nike store. It seemed like a way to buy influence rather than gain it.
Indeed, I'm sure some of that is true, but over the years I've learned that the best people in the outdoor PR industry have gone far beyond tit for tat gear for coverage behavior. They are truly advocates, not just for the brands they represent, but for this whole outdoor lifestyle.
Outdoor brands make gear, but at their best, they are so much more than that. At the heart of these companies are people who love being outside and care about the natural world. Those stories are important.
Right now we need outdoor brands to stand up and lead not just as businesses, but as advocates for the natural world, which, like it or not, is under assault. These brands prove that you can do it right.
You can be successful at business, employ people and help elevate your community and you can take care of the environment, take care of your employees, set a higher standard.
But without PR people, so many of whom have been journalists or worked in politics or been professional athletes or guides, these stories don't get told.
My guest today has been a pioneer in outdoor PR and a pioneer for women in the outdoor industry in general, and she's a friend who has helped support my career and taken me to see her clients work all over the world. Chris Goddard is the founder and CEO of cgpr, a public relations agency specializing in active lifestyle, outdoor sustainability and fashion.
With a career rooted in strategy and storytelling, she has led initiatives for brands including Adidas Outdoor, loa, Gore Tex, industry leaders like Outdoor Industry Association, Outdoor Retailer, and ispo, among many others. Chris spent nearly a decade in Washington, D.C. as a lobbyist focused on energy and environmental policy, and later represented the Mayor of New York.
That experience shaped her belief in the power of thoughtful messaging to drive change.
Chris is a trusted voice in the industry and a frequent contributor to panels and conversations around branding, sustainability and the evolving role of purpose in business. Now let's open the container with Chris Goddard.
Well, I am extremely excited to be here with Chris Goddard who is one of the first first people I met when I went into the outdoor industry and has been a long time icon and hustler and mover and shaker in this world. So it's great to see you, Chris.
Chris Goddard
00:05:48.800 - 00:05:54.860
Well, it's really great to see you. I would say we've been entering the same circles for at least 20 years.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:05:55.240 - 00:06:01.500
Yeah. And you've also taken me on some fantastic trips to Europe, one of my favorite places to go.
Chris Goddard
00:06:01.800 - 00:06:08.142
Yeah. It's always good to always get to do those and spend time with people one on one instead of the zoom thing. Zoom is overrated.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:06:08.296 - 00:06:30.390
I agree. Podcasts are not, however, correct. Absolutely. So let's hop into it right away. I have kind of a big question for you to start with, and that is.
And since you have been around the outdoor industry for a long time, what is the outdoor industry, and does such a thing even exist?
Chris Goddard
00:06:31.530 - 00:07:20.670
It definitely exists. It has definitely evolved since I got involved in it, probably. Oh, I don't know. I'm trying to remember when my first or was.
But it definitely exists because it's just a group of people that share a passion for the outdoors, and they don't have to be climbers, they don't have to be experts. It's just people who want to go outside.
And I think we've seen, after Covid, you had all these people come and discover the outdoors for the first time, and they never left. So it's just people that are passionate and sharing the love for getting outside. So it definitely exists. Well, I think sometimes it might be under.
It might be under fire right now. But, you know, as I said, and I think I pushed on, put it on LinkedIn, that, you know, the outdoors is not blue and it's not red. It's just outside.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:07:21.530 - 00:07:35.360
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a subset of people who love being outside.
And I think that's, you know, we've talked about this a lot recently, how politicizing the outdoors can actually be a dangerous move. Right.
Chris Goddard
00:07:36.140 - 00:07:59.680
But I do think, though, in light of what's happening, especially because of what's happening at EPA and the cuts and what's happening with public lands, I do think it's important because that's where we play to protect those categories, because that's where we play. So I don't know if that's necessarily politicizing it, but it's just protecting what's important to us.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:08:00.340 - 00:08:17.000
That sounds more than reasonable to me, for sure.
I guess that one thing that people, when they hear the term outdoor industry, I think what some people get upset about is the term industry, that we should just be people who love the outdoors and aren't involved in making a business out of it.
Chris Goddard
00:08:18.100 - 00:08:49.460
I think that's a little bit naive. I mean, the industry, when you think about it, it's strong. It's $1.2 trillion. That's an important contribution to the U.S. economy. 2.9% GDP.
I don't know what the. I can't remember what the exact number, but we make a big contribution to the US Economy, and that's really powerful.
And I don't think we should be shy about talking about that. It's people's livelihoods. It lets people make money and have lives. So I don't think we can walk away from that. It's really important.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:08:50.160 - 00:09:04.414
Yeah, well, and you specifically are somebody who has been able to make this a career for a long time, being in the outdoor industry and some in some way. Right. So how did that. Yeah, I mean, how did that start? How did you get your start in the outdoor world?
Chris Goddard
00:09:04.502 - 00:10:20.420
Oh, it's. It's. It's really interesting. Before I came to the dark side of PR, I was in Washington, D.C.
for close to nine years, and I was a lobbyist for the mayor of New York and involved in lobbying on energy and environment, specifically the reauthorization of the Clean Air act and some other legislation, legislative items then. And after nine years in D.C. i decided I needed to get back to New York City, where I went to.
Worked for the mayor in New York, and then after the New York, went to pr, but working at Edelman, which was my first big agency experience. And my first two clients were snuggle and whisk, Remember the laundry? Dry sheets and laundry detergent.
And if you could do PR for those kinds of products, you can do PR for anything. And then ended up coming right from New York City to Marblehead, Mass. Because of sailing. You know, I'm a big sailor. Sailing is sort of my. My church.
And ended up at Rockport doing internal pr and then just went out on my own. And my very first client was Merrill. We stayed with them for 14 years, started on my dining room table, and never looked back. And here we are.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:10:22.080 - 00:10:27.300
So what is different, you know, now as opposed to when you started?
Chris Goddard
00:10:27.810 - 00:11:34.270
I've got everything. Everything. Everything is different. Everything is quicker, everything is harder. Everything takes 10 times as long.
When you look at the immediate relations landscape, it's significantly decreased by over 50%. Even media and you know this, Doug. There are a lot fewer reporters, and for every reporter, there are six of us.
But PR has also morphed into, you know, social media and affiliate marketing and events and crisis management. I mean, it always has been. It's. I think the biggest change has really Been the media landscape and everything is significantly harder.
And I always say that kids, I interview, you know, can I interview about pr? What's it like to get in? I say if you don't love it 150%, don't bother. It is not, it is not for the faint of heart.
And you just, you just cannot give up because it's just, it's just really hard right now. And it can be frustrating and it can be terrifying and it can be hard on the soul, but you just have to just keep on going.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:34.390 - 00:11:53.326
But you've been, you have certain clients I know that you've been with for a long, long time now, right? That you've developed those relationships. I mean, you worked with Greg Thompson and Adidas Outdoor and his companies for a long time.
And you've worked with LOA and Peter Sachs. You've worked with those companies for a long, long time. So there are ways to really build long term relationships with.
Chris Goddard
00:11:53.398 - 00:12:33.230
Well, the key to doing that is being a business partner and truly being part of their team and being considered part of their team. You, you never want to be viewed as a vendor of PR services. You really want to be part of the business planning and driving that business to success.
The reason that we were able to stay with Adidas for 10 years and Gore for 16 years is because we understood the track of the business and how PR fit into that track. And that's how you groom and nurture those relationships.
It's not just about doing a press release here or doing a media trip here or, or doing an event.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:33.530 - 00:12:38.578
So what's the biggest single shift you've seen since you started digital and social?
Chris Goddard
00:12:38.634 - 00:13:11.260
For sure. No question. And also the merging of editorial and Pay to Play, that is definitely the biggest change. And it's also, it's pervasive.
So the value of editorial is still incredibly important. Getting a story in the Wall Street Journal is still really, really important and considered a win. But getting it is so much harder these days.
And so the biggest changes are digital and the merging together, Pay to Play and Editorial.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:11.340 - 00:13:48.300
And I'm sure in both those cases you must see ways that it's both better and worse, right? With digital, you know, it used to be there was a lot more gatekeeping, right?
There were only, you know, certain big mag, especially before, you know, before 2000 maybe there were just a few big magazines that were mostly centered in New York and you had to get into magazines or not. And now you can contact. You know, I was on a trip with you in Italy and there were Influencers from all over.
So there's a lot more avenues, I guess and a lot more people you can reach in different ways.
Chris Goddard
00:13:48.880 - 00:14:22.884
I think you just have to be thoughtful and be, have intent as to how you do it because influencers are important. You have to be careful about which ones you, you know, you work with.
Affiliate marketing is sort of another area that you have to be careful with and thoughtful. It's really about having an understand a purpose and intent.
But it is a new way and so you have to adapt it and you have to impart those best practices to your clients and make sure they understand how to do that. And you can't just do it as a reaction. You have to do it with thought and purpose. I keep on going back to intent. You have to have intent.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:14:23.012 - 00:14:30.756
So who are the best, you know, what are the best influencers do well and what, what attracts you to them? What do you think they're doing?
Chris Goddard
00:14:30.828 - 00:15:01.796
I mean the best influencers are the people that will understand your brand voice and it would be a long time partnership. The last thing you want to do is have one and done because that's transactional and the last thing brands want to be today is transactional.
You want to have a long term relationship that's going to nurture the voice of the brand and impart messaging which is important and can help the brand go forward. Anytime you have influencers, you know that do one and done for outrageous amounts of money, it just doesn't, it just doesn't make sense.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:15:01.978 - 00:15:09.500
Right. So are there some examples of, you know, influencer relationships you've been really excited about or you'd like to see, develop or do things? Right?
Chris Goddard
00:15:10.200 - 00:15:46.588
I mean, I think we've, I think we've had an opportunity to work some work with some really good influencers on a variety of clients and we have so many categories that are, you know, outside of outdoor and are in fashion and technology.
So I think I would just say that the influencers that we choose are the ones that are reliable, are thoughtful, our brand voice and understand the purpose of having a two way relationship. It has to be two way, it can't just be one way. So I don't know if that answers your question, but there are best practices for sure.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:15:46.724 - 00:16:05.876
So I think moving to another point though, being in the industry for a long time, what changes have you seen in the way we talk about outdoor or the way we define outdoor now that are a big step up or really kind of welcome change from what people would think of as the glory days or a long Time ago.
Chris Goddard
00:16:06.028 - 00:17:03.370
Well, I mean, I think way back when the industry was based on mom and pop people making their brands out of their garages and then growing up and then came the world of private equity and VC and brands going public and, you know, the personality of the industry changing. And I think way back when also it was about you had to do Everest or you had to be really core or you had to be the best at the best.
And now it's certainly much more welcoming. I mean, you saw again, people entered the outdoors after Covid and they never left. And so in that case, it's a welcome change.
I think sometimes the industry doesn't necessarily know how to talk to those people and make them feel welcome that you don't have to climb Everest, just go outside. So I think we have some work to do there.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:17:03.750 - 00:17:26.170
Sure. And I know that, yeah, there was this big boom after Covid of people going outdoors.
And now the biggest problem the outdoor industry as a business faces is they kind of over overshot what they thought those people would buy after they got the, the basics. And now I think also trying to figure out how to continue to serve them right.
Chris Goddard
00:17:26.640 - 00:18:25.054
Well, I think. Well, we definitely have supply and demand problems and we've had that from COVID We're still not through that.
But I do think you're seeing brands doing some better jobs as far as being more inclusive, especially for women and for bringing the next generation in, which has a different definition of the outdoors.
It's not, again, it goes back to, it's not just climbing Everetts, it's going outside in New York, it's spending time with your friends at a ball game. So I think the industry is doing a better job at welcoming those people in, but I think we need to do better at that.
And also some of the language that we use in describing our products I think is complicated. It's sort of like the world of sustainability using this complicated language.
I think we have to think about using language that engages people and interests them and brings them in.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:18:25.222 - 00:18:30.570
Oh, that's a great point. Yeah. Do you see some brands doing that well? Do you see brands who are figuring that out?
Chris Goddard
00:18:31.670 - 00:19:13.380
I think there are, I think they're brands that are, are trying, whether it's, you know, the kind of videos that they put on which are more not so core or the way they talk about it even in their descriptions on their websites.
So I think there are, there are brands that are, that are doing well and sometimes the legacy brands tend to get that and have been really good at evolving I mean, obviously we work. We've worked with LOA for a long time. And I think legacy brands sometimes have a really good understanding of who they are.
And so when they feel that they have to tweak their voice, it's okay because they still have their legacy.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:13.960 - 00:19:24.170
Yeah. I mean, I think a brand like Loa, they make some incredible trekking shoes. Right. That only a few people are going to buy.
So they have a foot in both worlds, to use a bad pie.
Chris Goddard
00:19:24.750 - 00:20:03.000
But, you know, which also is another really good example. And, you know, we had the privilege of working with. You mentioned Greg.
Adidas Terex did a really good job when they came into the marketplace because they brought sort of a new profile of a consumer, a younger consumer that happened to be more focused on, you know, in that case, some of it was climbing, some of it was just going outdoors, but they were up against a big challenge. You remember when we first started, you know, when the first hundred retailers said, no, like, why do we need Adidas? You're.
You're a soccer brand, you're a baseball brand. So in a sense, they, they set a new tone and, you know, they were pretty successful for a long time.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:03.300 - 00:20:28.690
Yeah. And that's. I mean, we should send some praise out to Greg Thompson. Right. Who is just kind of, for sure a genius in doing that.
Where Greg was a hardcore Yosemite climber in his day and understand the hardcore part of the business, but he also, I think at Adidas especially, was really incredible about bringing young climbers into the business. Right. Getting them a foothold, giving them a career, which was really an amazing thing.
Chris Goddard
00:20:28.810 - 00:21:02.348
The really good thing from a business perspective about what he did was that he, he translated his passion in a successful way to the business and made people interested and, and to. And understanding what the brand had to offer. So it wasn't just core, core, core. It was. This is really interesting. This is going to be good for you.
Try something new. So it was a. It was a friendly tone. And that was one of the reasons, I think, the brands, the brand succeeded.
And yes, a lot of it came from Greg's passion. And I was fortunate enough to be in the trenches with him for 10 years.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:21:02.484 - 00:21:14.910
Yeah. Yeah. And I think he really made a big brand that could scare off. Scare off climbers, you know, core climbers.
He really found a way to bring them in and really rally them around what he was doing.
Chris Goddard
00:21:15.530 - 00:22:09.718
When you think of one of the highlights of that was, you know, the dawn wall. And. That's right. And how that whole episode just completely Blew up. It started as a climbing story, and it blew up as a global news story.
It was basically just about two guys trying to do something they always wanted to do, and it. And people were glued to the live streaming. It was insanity.
I remember we had 21 satellite trucks in Yosemite from all over the world that were tracking whether Kevin and Tommy were going to get to the top, and they did. And then being on Ellen, climbers on Ellen and, you know, and Anderson Cooper twice and, and the Today show, all, all the morning shows.
But it was about the fact that this one story, it blew up and it became a human story as opposed to a little story about two climbers.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:22:09.894 - 00:22:16.610
Sure, yeah. Yeah. It was about. I mean, it was really about their dedication more than it was about the climb, right?
Chris Goddard
00:22:17.310 - 00:22:22.918
Well, yes, exactly. Yeah. Vanity Fair did a profile on them. Vanity Fair climbers, yeah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:22:23.094 - 00:22:32.930
Do you think those days of big media coverage like that are over? Is the media landscape too fractured now for us to see that kind of thing again for an outdoor achievement or.
Chris Goddard
00:22:33.600 - 00:23:10.568
That's a really good question. And I don't know whether we'll see something like that again or whether we'll see the same attention, because I think it is too fractured.
I mean, when you look at the news landscape right now, it is chaotic and it is unforgiving, and stories pass in 30 seconds. And so you don't have the longevity of attention spans from producers and reporters.
And then you have stories like Signalgate and everything that's going on in Washington that takes up the. The room for stories like that. So I don't know whether we'll see.
We might see somebody do that again, but I don't know whether you see the same media attention.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:23:10.744 - 00:23:14.888
Right. What kind of thing does, like, catch now in this media landscape?
Chris Goddard
00:23:14.984 - 00:24:03.990
Politics? Everything. Everything. That's everything that's coming. I mean, the, the economy, Washington, consumer sentiments, wars, global unrest.
And that's why the outdoors is so refreshing, and that's why the participation rates still stay pretty steady, if not increasing, because people need comfort to sort of stay out of the chaos.
I mean, it's really overwhelming, I think, and you just have to be very careful and thoughtful and strategic when you're trying to do work for your client. Whether it's talking about a boot or whether it's talking about a service or whether it's talking about technology.
You have to be really thoughtful and strategic about how you do that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:24:04.370 - 00:24:07.946
And that must be harder with clients who want immediate results, right?
Chris Goddard
00:24:08.098 - 00:24:20.586
Yes, because immediate results. I don't know that that ever happens anymore.
I mean, unless you have a ginormous merger or acquisition that's going to shake up stock prices, it's very different.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:24:20.738 - 00:24:45.982
Well, hey, you have got, as you said, you've gone to the Outdoor Retailer show for a long, long time. I know you do PR for the show, so you can have a positive spin no matter what.
But what is compelling about Outdoor retailer right now, in the current climate, both for the industry in general and trade shows in general, now that it might not be the giant circus that it was 15, 20 years ago, it's still.
Chris Goddard
00:24:46.006 - 00:25:53.610
A place for people to come together. And you can never take that away. You can also never take away those surprise and delight moments, people that you run into in the aisles.
You know, whether you're seeing it at Ispo, excuse me.
Or Functional Fabric Fair or Performance Days, you can't take away those personal moments and you can't take away the opportunity to see somebody that you haven't seen. You know, shows are adjusting to the world and how business is being conducted. So those things continue to be compelling.
I mean, if you look at the, the industry day that's taking place before the show this year, there's some really interesting leaders coming together to talk about the challenges facing the industry. From Lindsey Schumlass, the CEO of Code Epoxy, from Greg is doing the moderating. To leaders from Salomon and Orvis and Skullcandy.
These are opportunities for people to come together and to talk about the challenges and opportunities and best practice. That part of it's never going to go away. Will trade shows evolve? They have to because the world's evolving.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:25:54.350 - 00:26:14.374
And as you said, you go to so many, you know, around the world. I know. I went to Espo and saw you there in fall of 24, and it felt like an old or show. It was big. It was, it was happening.
Why do you think it's still so vibrant there? And what other shows have you been to that have really impressed?
Chris Goddard
00:26:14.422 - 00:27:39.490
I mean, we, the reason that we go to these global events is because we really need to stay ahead of the trends. Everything doesn't happen in the US it happens all over. And, you know, things merge and end up here.
And so we go to Global Fashion Agenda in Copenhagen and we go to Ispo and we will go to the European Outdoor Group. You know, their summit went to that last year. I'm heading to some shows in the, in the fall. Sorry, in the spring.
But I think it's just really important to have a sense of what is happening globally because it is A global industry. And there's no other way to get those kinds of insights unless you actually, you know, step out of your box a little bit. So that's why.
That's why they do it. It's the different. The same. I will say one thing that they have in common is the passion.
Everybody is completely wild and passionate about the outdoors, about technology, and about sustainability. There's absolutely no decrease in the enthusiasm for those three things. But I will say that every show has its own personality.
It reflects the personality of the country. You know, ISPO reflects Europe.
When I went to the European Outdoor Group Summit in Cambridge, England, it's all about, you know, the European community and the UK Community. So the shows reflect the personalities of where they're held, but the passions are very similar.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:27:40.590 - 00:27:57.630
And it seems to me that Europeans also, you know, you were saying before they think of outdoors a little more so of just going outside. Right. As they say in Scandinavia, the nature, you know, being outdoors where we have it a little more sectioned off as almost a niche sometimes.
Right.
Chris Goddard
00:27:58.010 - 00:28:22.662
I think in the. In. I think in the beginning, maybe it was a niche, but again, I think since COVID I think there's been an evolution to.
To consumers that are just going outdoors. And so I do. I do think we've seen that change. And I do think that. I don't think we're going to.
I don't think we're ever going to go back to only being able to use outdoor equipment on top of Everest, because if we did that, we would be a tiny, tiny industry. So.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:28:22.746 - 00:28:23.086
Right.
Chris Goddard
00:28:23.158 - 00:28:34.170
I think it's important to welcome people into the. Into the. Into the industry in a way that makes them feel, you know, warm and loved and being able to enjoy the experiences at hand.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:28:34.870 - 00:29:14.520
I know you worked. You said you worked for the mayor of New York.
There's this great book that I've read called Mannahatta, which is a natural history of New York, where they went back and researched, you know, what the island used to look like before white settlement and found all natural high points and rivers and things like that.
But the last chapter of that book gets into how New York is going to be a model for sustainability in the future, which is a funny thing to think about, I think, for us in the outdoors to think that New York City might be this model of sustainability. Do you think there's some truth to that?
Chris Goddard
00:29:15.140 - 00:30:19.600
I mean, I think sustainability is top of mind for everybody, having just gone to the Sourcing Journal summit in New York a couple weeks ago. So it's Definitely top of mind for brands. It's top of mind for technologies. It's top of mind for consumers.
I still think people are trying to understand what that means and how it impacts their lives and is it more expensive and how do I adapt it to what I'm doing. And so I think it's not going anywhere soon.
But one of the other things that came up at that meeting was that brands who set goals have not been able to reach them.
So sustainability is not going away, but I think it's brands are taking stock of what they can realistically do and maybe thinking about how they talk about it. And consumers. Also at this conference, Doug, it was really funny. Cotton Inc.
Did a survey and they were saying that consumers don't even understand the language. And when they asked some consumers what they thought circularity was, they actually thought it was like apparel that could help their circulation.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:30:22.260 - 00:30:23.600
That's fantastic.
Chris Goddard
00:30:24.100 - 00:30:31.800
So we have to figure out a way to talk about it that, again, makes sense. And people can understand, like, what the ramifications are and how they, how they play a role.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:30:32.100 - 00:30:51.758
Right. I mean, because unfortunately, we, we in this space, we love to talk about sustainability. It matters to us.
But when it comes to consumers, I've always thought that, you know, the thing people care about most is price. Then they think about utility. How does it look on me? What's it going to do? And then sustainability often is an added value thing, Right?
Chris Goddard
00:30:51.894 - 00:31:05.182
Well, that's, that's exactly what, what came out in the, in this meeting. That consumers definitely think about style and fit and comfort and sustainability if they can afford it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:31:05.286 - 00:31:13.130
Right, right. So who's doing sustainability? Right. Then who's working along that paradigm to, to make it work to.
Chris Goddard
00:31:14.470 - 00:32:28.840
I mean, you know, there are tons of brands and technologies. The thing that I'm inspired by, we do a lot of work with sustainable technology.
There's some really interesting sustainability technology and fibers and fabrics and companies that are approaching it from a holistic standpoint. I mean, for instance, we're working with Reju, which is a company that launched last year, which is textile to textile recycling.
And they're just not about technology.
You know, they've just partnered with Goodwill and Waste Management, so they have a system for feedstock, and they built a regeneration hub in Frankfurt. So I'm inspired by those kinds of approaches because it's not just one. It's like one in one equals three.
And I think the industry is taking a hard look at sustainable practices, but I'm inspired by the technologies that are out and about and also Somebody like Aceclo, you know, which helps fibers biodegrade faster.
So there's some really interesting technologies and there are some interesting brands as well that are trying to impart those messages in a way that consumers can understand.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:29.540 - 00:32:56.850
That's great. Now we have businesses pushing hard for sustainability, but all of a sudden we have a politics that seems to be set against it.
Like, we're got rid of paper straws and threw plastic straws back in there. Right. This idea of being dead set against it.
Do you think that that won't matter, that sustainability is already like a wave that's moving forward that brands want to do? Or do you think we're going to take steps backwards because of the politics?
Chris Goddard
00:32:57.670 - 00:33:38.430
It's a really good question. I think it's a question of showing up and continuing to show up. It's certainly going to be harder. You've seen ESG brands in Wall Street.
They've taken a. A backseat, they've taken steps back. And so I think brands who are committed to it will continue to fight the fight.
It might be slower, but I think it's probably going to be a little bit more difficult. Difficult where we are today. But you just can't give up. You just have to. You just have to keep doing it. You have to move forward.
One of the things that came out of, again, the sourcing Journal meeting last week was if you're tired, you still need to do it, you know, just like Cory Booker yesterday.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:33:38.510 - 00:33:39.134
Yes, yes.
Chris Goddard
00:33:39.182 - 00:33:47.790
Set a record. Right. I mean, he just kept on doing it. So it's a question of show up, show up. Just show up. Make your voice heard.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:33:47.950 - 00:33:59.370
Yeah, yeah. We talked about this in my podcast, you know, with Gigi Edwards from Nora. That just showing the fuck up is probably the best thing you can do. Right?
Chris Goddard
00:34:00.390 - 00:34:20.530
Yeah. I mean, there was. You just have to show up. You have. You have to.
You just have to talk and make your opinion known and not give up and keep talking until people listen. I mean, I think. I think right now that's. It's really important. It's hard. It's really, really hard right now.
But you just have to, you know, dig deep and as you said, just show up.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:34:21.710 - 00:34:23.958
You can drop some F bombs on this show. That's okay.
Chris Goddard
00:34:24.054 - 00:34:26.566
Yeah, I know, I know. I know Colin would want me to do that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:34:26.638 - 00:34:46.500
Yes. You've been trained not to do it. That's fine.
So when we were talking about you coming on the show, one title you suggested for you being on here that I really liked was the Highs, the lows, and the W2TFs of PR with Chris Goddard. Do you think you can give me a quick example of both of those for you? A high, a low and a wtf.
Chris Goddard
00:34:47.560 - 00:36:22.802
I mean, I think the high definitely was a couple. The high is I've been able to keep this business going for over 33 years despite 2008 where we lost, right, God, 30% of our business. Covid.
It was really, really challenging. And so to have the perseverance to somehow try and figure it out and keep getting up and keep going back to your desk and keep doing things.
I think another high diag was those are also highs and lows. You know, those were highs and, and lows. And then I, you know, I go back to the dawn wall as a real high point. That was incredibly special.
But I think the other highs are the long term relationships that I've been able to build and the trust and the mutual respect and those relationships don't go away.
Continue to point to Greg Thompson and Peter Sax at loa, but all the brands that we've had the huge privilege of working with and being able to be in this lucky community that we're in. So I know that sounds maybe pollyanna. You know, 2008 was really tough. Covid was really, really tough. We kept on getting phone calls and phone calls.
Well, we got to put our business on hold. Well, we got to put business on hold. We have to put our business on hold. So how do you deal with that?
It becomes personal and you have to lay people off. And so you just have to figure out a way to get through it and navigate it. But that's what also makes you stronger.
Again, probably sounds Pollyanna, but that's what makes you stronger.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:36:22.946 - 00:36:24.870
And what about the WTFs?
Chris Goddard
00:36:26.040 - 00:37:12.840
You mean mistakes? I mean, there have been, you know, there have been lots of, lots of mistakes with, you know, events that have gone wrong.
Media, media showing up to go to European trips and getting to the airport and discovering that their passports had expired. So they just don't show up.
Leaving, leaving clients, you know, holding the bag for airfare, journalists that have indulged a little bit too much in Europe so they don' make it for the rest of the trip. I mean, you know, product, product recalls, you know, mergers, mergers and acquisitions, where you're dealing with impossible personality.
So all that comes with the territory, I think.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:37:13.860 - 00:37:25.200
So how have you done it?
How have you been able to sustain such a long career in a field that can be so exhausting and requires you to keep finding clients and maintaining relationships with existing Clients.
Chris Goddard
00:37:25.860 - 00:38:11.140
It's a real. It's a really good question. I think the first and most important thing is I still adore what I do. I love what I do. I love. I love communicating.
I love trying to figure out telling stories. I love the industry, but we work in technology, we work in fashion, we work in outdoor.
But you have to love what you do, and you have to have good teammates because they're only going to make you better and teach you every day. And then you have to have. In my case, my husband walks me off the cliff almost every day when I have a challenging moment.
So it's all that combination. But most of all, you have to love what you do 150%. And I do. And I'm really, really lucky and happy I can still do it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:38:11.680 - 00:38:22.396
Yeah. I've known you for a long time, and you're pretty much always on game. Always game face. The one times I see you, not occasionally, though.
You do talk about your husband and your dogs are kind of the times. A dog. Yeah, our dog.
Chris Goddard
00:38:22.568 - 00:39:05.888
Yeah. There's nothing like being on a European trip and coming home or on a red eye and you have three huge Labrador retrievers jump on you.
There's nothing better than that. I will say, though, it's extraordinarily difficult right now. It's really, really hard, and it's incredibly frustrating.
And you have to really, really dig deep to do what we do these days. And that is not lost on me. And I also make it a point of, you know, making sure I get exercise. And I go to my.
In the summertime, it's sailing, but it has never been harder. And I don't think I've ever worked harder than I'm working now. There's no question. It's sort of brutal.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:39:06.064 - 00:39:15.380
Yeah.
And how do you, you know, how do you stay grounded when things are so chaotic, when everything is crazy and difficult around you and getting more difficult?
Chris Goddard
00:39:16.440 - 00:40:09.748
You know what? One, I take a breath. You know, I take it.
I really try and just stop and think about what I'm doing and try and figure out what do I not have to do, what do I have to do?
But also just getting outside peace of mind, taking the time, taking that time to just have a minute, Just have a minute, and then put things in perspective. Just put things in perspective and try.
And also, if you get in a situation where you're feeling so horrible, like, reach out to a friend, you know, it's like, I am. I just can't do this anymore. I'm having a really bad Day. Can you. Can you help me out? So you have to know when to do that. And just so you.
You try and have a sense of center. And if you. I think if you do that, then it's okay. It's okay. But it is hard.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:40:09.884 - 00:40:24.082
Do you think the world. It really is on the outdoor world, the world in general, do you think everything really is on fire right now? Do you think there's a way we can.
What's your best way to kind of as a sailor. Right. What's our best way to make it through the storm, to use a different metaphor?
Chris Goddard
00:40:24.146 - 00:41:13.730
Well, you know. You know what? Yeah. I mean, I'll pick it up on that metaphor.
You know, you can't really do anything about the wind, so you just have to adjust the sails. You know, it's really is. It's really about being adaptable and knowing when to twist and turn and knowing when to stay in your lane.
And sometimes those decisions are incredibly hard. You know, Doug, when companies.
When you have these big issues that pop up and you see companies weighing in on Facebook or Instagram or LinkedIn because they think they have to weigh in on an issue, and it looks really stupid, like, figure out, stay in your lane and don't just do things because people are making you feel like you have to do things. So it's about being adaptable, but also having that center and having a sense of self and just don't get distracted.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:41:15.200 - 00:41:25.880
With so many people feeling uncertain right now about their careers in the world center, what advice would you really give them to stay the course to be able to do that? How can we learn from you?
Chris Goddard
00:41:25.920 - 00:41:57.880
It's hold on to what you love and work on what you can control. And also, don't let people rent space in your head. Really stay focused on what you know on your plan.
Make the changes that you have to make, but don't let people rent space in your head. Only work on the things that you can control, because there's no point in spinning wheels on things that you can't control.
I can't change the wind if I'm sailing, so I'm going to do whatever I can to change the sail so I can get to where I'm going.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:41:58.260 - 00:42:05.360
Sure. Do you think there's one myth that people have about PR that you could debunk?
Chris Goddard
00:42:06.260 - 00:42:57.340
Yeah, I think the myth is that people think that we can work magic and get media coverage in a nanosecond. And if somebody does a story or somebody tests a product that Bing that's going to appear and you Know, the next week, I mean, we are.
The only other myth I will talk, I will say is that sometimes we get asked, well, who do you know? What reporter do you know? Do you know anybody? The Wall Street Journal? Do you know anybody in the New York Times? We know tons of people there.
But if you don't have a good story and you don't know how to tell that story, it doesn't matter who we know. It's all about how you tell the story, how you tell the story. You know, I can know.
I've known you for 20 years, but if I have, if I don' have a good story, I'm not going to. I'm not going to, you know, bother you with it.
The same thing with the, you know, we have really good relationships with the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, but I'm not going to bring them a story that's not worth their time.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:42:57.720 - 00:43:09.504
And then I guess the hardest thing is when you do have that good story, then a brand wants another story after that. And. And a lot of the media outlets are like, we already told that story. There's not another story to tell yet. Right.
Chris Goddard
00:43:09.672 - 00:43:28.924
Yeah. But you know what? It's all about managing expectations for your. For your clients and making sure they understand, you know, you.
You have to be able to explain and manage expectations for your clients and share the realities of today's media world, and let's just hope that they don't get in the paper for the wrong reason.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:29.092 - 00:43:39.820
So I think really importantly, too, you've paved the way for a lot of women in PR in the outdoor industry. I think when you started, it was really more of a boys club than ever.
Chris Goddard
00:43:39.860 - 00:43:40.956
It still is a boys club.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:41.028 - 00:43:42.860
I was gonna say. I said more of.
Chris Goddard
00:43:42.900 - 00:43:51.070
It still is a boys club. If you look at, at the CEO suite, there's definitely room for improvement.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:51.410 - 00:44:07.146
Absolutely. Well, what, you know, how did you make it in those early days? You know, what challenges you face? How did you make it through?
And what advice would you have for women, not just working in pr, but also trying to get into those big leadership roles in the outdoor industry?
Chris Goddard
00:44:07.218 - 00:45:21.920
I mean, I think that it's. First of all, you have to love what you do. You have to be willing to fail and then learn from your failures.
And you have to also have a sense of persistence, know when you're wrong. But it's all about staying the course, you know, following, following your route, deciding that this is what you want to do, and don't let people.
I keep going back to the statement, but don't let people rent space in your head. Don't let them tell you you can't do it, because you can do it. The industry certainly has evolved since I got started. There are.
There are more women, but not so much in the. In the C suite. And so I think for women, young women coming into the industry, it's. It's hard work. Be prepared to, you know, work long hours.
But if you love what you do, it's, It's. It's really, really worth it. But I think the thing that, for me was also, mentors are really important.
If you don't have a mentor, find someone who can be your mentor. And failure is okay, because that's the only way you learn and make mistakes and become better at what you do.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:45:22.940 - 00:45:31.280
And, of course, like what. And what can men. What can men like me? What can other men in the industry do to make it a better and more successful place for women?
Chris Goddard
00:45:32.140 - 00:46:18.766
I think it's about being fair. I mean, women shouldn't be treated especially, but I think they should be treated equally and be treated fair.
And I really think that's what it's about.
It doesn't matter the industry, whether it's finance or whether it's technology or whether it's, you know, footwear, whatever it is, it's about recognizing people for their strengths and using their talents in the best way possible so everybody can collectively be set up for success. So it's. It's being fair and it's being treated equally and, you know, making sure that there's.
I think the other thing is making sure there's a path for growth.
It's important to nurture people's careers and making sure that they can move upward and also making sure they have the tools, you know, teach them, give them the tool, give them the tools that they need. So that was probably five things.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:46:18.918 - 00:46:36.230
Oh, that's great. I think that's fun. And I mean, I think we've. You've seen some people do that really well. Really?
Greg Thompson being one who's helped support a lot of women in the industry and other, you know, are there examples of other women or other mentors, you think, who've really pushed the envelope and made it less of a boys club?
Chris Goddard
00:46:37.410 - 00:46:44.058
Oh, I mean, well, when you look at some of the female CEOs now, you know, I think Sally McCoy comes to mind.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:46:44.114 - 00:46:44.698
Absolutely.
Chris Goddard
00:46:44.794 - 00:47:06.002
She's not. She's not in the industry, but she certainly, you know, helped help pave the way. I even think Sally Jewell, you know, at rei, helped.
Helped to pave the way. And you know, we need to, we need to see more of that. So I think those are two icons that certainly were inspirational to me.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:47:06.106 - 00:47:15.910
So how, you know, we talked a little bit about it, but how worried are you about the attacks on public land and on environmental policies? Sustainability?
Chris Goddard
00:47:17.530 - 00:48:23.210
It's a mess. And it's across the board.
I mean, you have the Katsun National Parks and then you have the tariffs that were today and they will probably change tomorrow and then they'll probably change again. And then you also have the cuts at epa. So you're going to have lack of enforcement for air and water.
I think it's going to be a rocky road for a long time. But we cannot give up. We have to use our voice.
You know, I was on a call a couple weeks ago that Ryan Gellert hosted outdoor companies that are trying to put together the best plan forward. And that's encouraging. We have to speak up and we have to. You have to keep talking. You just can't give up.
It's not the first time that the industry has sort of of seen incoming from a lot of places. We've certainly seen these kinds of changes before, but I think this time there are more and they're coming more fast and furious.
So it's about being focused and am I worried? Yeah, yeah. But we have to keep talking. We have to speak up. We have to stay strong.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:48:24.150 - 00:48:36.018
And as a long term PR person and also someone who worked in politics, what kind of messaging do you think it's essential to get out there to make people realize what, what a danger this is to everyone?
Chris Goddard
00:48:36.154 - 00:49:25.036
I mean, I think a really strong message that seems to resonate more in Washington.
And I've also normally part of the Outdoor Industry Association Capital Summit because I think that's a really good exercise is talking about the financial contributions of the industry. It's a powerful industry. I mean, we are mighty. And when you look at the contribution that we make to each of the states, it's pretty strong.
And the GDP numbers are incredible and the number of jobs that are created. So I think think the financial data tends to resonate more sometimes than protecting our parks, although it's equally important.
But sometimes you have to pick and choose your messaging and pick and choose messaging that's going to resonate in Washington. And sometimes that tends to be about numbers and that's not great, but that tends to resonate.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:49:25.148 - 00:49:27.516
Sure. That's what works. Yeah, that's a messaging that works.
Chris Goddard
00:49:27.548 - 00:49:28.720
That's what works. Yeah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:49:29.380 - 00:49:50.490
Well, again, I wanted to Talk one more time too about you and sailing, which I think you said is your, you know, is your church. You live in Marblehead, one of the biggest selling towns I think in the United States. Right.
What is it you love about sailing and why do we not talk about selling as much in the outdoor industry kind of world, do you think?
Chris Goddard
00:49:51.830 - 00:51:01.570
I, I think sailing might have gotten a bad rap way back when. You know, people may think of that. It's a, it's a sport for few.
But I think the, you know, one of the reasons that I love it is because you really are out there and the only thing you to worry about is which direction are you going to go to and changing the sales and you, you're not, you don't have your phone with you. What you might be down below, but it really is a way to escape the noise and that. And that's why I like it.
And you know, for, I did a lot of long distance races. I did some deliveries from New England down to the BVIs.
And it just allows you to focus on nothing but sunshine and the water and the breeze and the direction of the wind and how you're going justice sales and sort of it is, you know, that's just a little piece of piece of paradise for me. So. And why do we not talk about it in the outdoor. I don't know. I mean, I think again, maybe not enough people do it or have access to it.
It's certainly getting, certainly getting better. You're seeing a lot of more little kids getting into it. But I think again, that goes to the whole definition of the outdoors.
Like what does that mean?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:51:02.030 - 00:51:21.122
Sure. I think of scary of sailing really is kind of like the, one of the ultimate outdoor sports. Have to worry about public lands, you've got the ocean.
You don't even have to worry about politics out there. Right. You've got international waters. And also one of the scariest. Right. I mean sailing's scary when it gets bad, right. There's no bailing out.
Chris Goddard
00:51:21.146 - 00:51:44.878
Yeah. I mean I can, I can remember I was doing a delivery from, I was doing a delivery from St.
Barts to Tortola and we hit the, the back end of a hurricane and it, it was pretty horrendous. I mean it was really, really horrendous. And that was one time I really was very, was very.
But yeah, if you get in bad weather, it can not be fun and it doesn't stop.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:51:44.934 - 00:51:49.050
You can't take a break, you can't back off. Yeah. You're in it, right?
Chris Goddard
00:51:49.430 - 00:51:50.970
Yeah. Sort of like pr.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:51:52.630 - 00:51:57.770
But what about the best moments? What are your best moments of sailing? What do you really enjoy when you're out there?
Chris Goddard
00:51:58.070 - 00:52:23.950
I mean, it's really point to point, you know, just going like, doing the coast of Maine is amazing and seeing the lighthouses and, you know, the scenery, it's just cruising is really. Is really terrific. It's very relaxing in the scenery. And, you know, it's not too bad down in the BVI's and outside St. Barts either. That's okay.
I can take that anytime. Except I can't bring my dog on the boat. So three of them is a little bit tough.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:52:25.890 - 00:52:43.030
When, you know, getting back to uncertainty and worry and working in the industry you had wanted me to talk to you about, you know, if you, if you gave one piece of advice to your younger self when you were just starting out, what, what would that be? What have you learned over this period of working in the outdoor industry?
Chris Goddard
00:52:44.690 - 00:53:54.538
I think it's really about. I don't know that it was going to be this hard. So when I first started, it was.
I'm not saying it's not fun now because I love what I do, but I think is just be prepared to work hard, be prepared for the unexpected, and just stay focused. And I think when I was young, maybe I was too idealistic. That's great.
I'm going to go work with these cool footwear companies and these cool apparel companies. But there's a lot of other things that you have to worry about and think about.
And so it's really about, I should have probably expect the unexpected and be a little bit more adaptable and try and also have grace when you are faced with those difficulties and take a breath. I think I just. Well, I'm from New York, so it was like, you know, like a big bubble zone.
So, you know, New York, New Yorkers tend to move fast and change directions quickly. So it's having just be prepared for the unexpected.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:53:54.714 - 00:54:03.030
Sure. But that's what we learn, right? From being a sailor, from being a climber, from being a backpacker even. Right.
That's the strength we bring to a business. Right?
Chris Goddard
00:54:03.410 - 00:54:18.934
Yeah. I mean, you again, it's all about learning from your mistakes.
You know, if, like, what do you do if that meeting media person forgets their passport, you know, and your client is yelling because the ticket was 10,000 bucks, you know, to fly first class or whatever. So. Yeah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:54:19.062 - 00:54:37.304
Well, Chris, this has really been great. I think we could keep going on for a while, especially talking about the joys of certain press trips and troubles, industry faces.
But the last question I always ask everyone on this show is very simple and it is just what gives you hope?
Chris Goddard
00:54:37.462 - 00:55:24.250
I think what gives me hope is there are in my world, this is a really positive, optimistic place to be. And no one can ever take away the solace and the comfort that the outdoors brings. And so that will always be there. No one can ever take that away.
And I think the optimism, although maybe it's a little bit harder to come by, I think people are genuinely optimistic and I think the heart and soul of this industry allows us to be optimistic. And that's what gives me hope. And that's what you just got to stay focused on.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:55:24.950 - 00:55:44.730
That's great. That's great advice.
I think you've brought a lot of great advice and direction to anyone listening to the show today, and I was really overjoyed to have you on and have this time to talk. Thank you so much. And if anyone wants to get in touch with you or learn more about what you do, what's the best way for them to do that?
Chris Goddard
00:55:45.590 - 00:56:11.704
You can go to cgpr public relations.com or my email is chrisgprpublicrelations.com I'm happy to talk to anybody, especially people who are up and coming and want to enter the industry. I'm happy to have those kinds of conversations.
And I would say also thank you to you and Colin for, for the chance to be on here and sort of share my journey. I really, really appreciate it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:56:11.872 - 00:56:18.232
Yeah, it's been really great to talk to you and get deeper into your world and everything, you know. So thank you so much, Chris.
Chris Goddard
00:56:18.296 - 00:56:19.180
Thanks, Doug.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:56:21.200 - 00:56:45.010
Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight llc.
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some. Thanks for listening.
