Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Kent Ebersole, the president of the Outdoor Industry Association (OIA), joins Colin to discuss the recent shift from its long-standing trade show relationship with Outdoor Retailer to a new partnership with Switchback.
Kent talks about the rationale for moving on from OR and why they decided Switchback was the right move at this time. He and Colin also discuss the current state and purpose of the OIA and where the organization is headed.
Chapters:
00:00 - Support for Hurricane Relief
01:02 - Welcome to the Rock Fight!
01:11 - Interview with OIA President Kent Ebersole
02:02 - The Shift from Outdoor Retailer to Switchback
23:00 - Where the OIA is today and where should it be in the future?
Hurricane Helene Relief Links:
Head to www.rockfight.co and sign up for News From the Front, Rock Fight's weekly newsletter!
Please follow and subscribe to THE ROCK FIGHT and give us a 5 star rating and written review wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to and follow Gear & Beer! The newest show on the Rock Fight Podcast Network.
Have a question or comment for a future mailbag episode? Send it to myrockfight@gmail.com or send a message on Instagram or Threads.
Choose Your Player
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
Captivate
Episode Transcript
Colin True
00:00:00.400 - 00:01:52.672
Western North Carolina businesses need your financial support now more than ever in the aftermath of Hurricane Helene.
This month here on the Rock fight, Darby Communications, based in Asheville, North Carolina, is donating its ad space to help other outdoor businesses in western North Carolina get back on their feet.
As part of the 828 endurance community, Darby Communications wants to showcase a fundraiser that Asheville local endurance brands Fuelgoods and Preseo have started through their together we rise t shirt campaign.
100% of t shirt sales will go to local outdoor businesses that lost everything, like rock Geist Bikepacking USA, a US made custom bikepacking bag company, and Asheville Adventure company and adventure trip outfitters and owners of cultivate climbing, Asheville's only climbing gym. Both businesses lost everything in the unprecedented flooding from Hurricane Helene.
You can get your together we rise t shirt and support western North Carolina at Fuelgoods. That's f u e l G o o d s. I already got mine. Have you gotten yours?
Welcome to the Rockflate, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm colin true, and today on the show, outdoor industry association president Kent Ebersol joins me to talk about events and the future of the OIA. But first, please follow and rate the rock fight.
Wherever you're listening on whatever podcast app you are listening to us on, leave us that five star rating. And listen, folks, you're outdoorsy. You work in the outdoor industry. You're listening to the rock fight. You need to check out gear and beer.
That's our other podcast here on the Rock Fight podcast network, where Justin Houseman and I crack open a beer, we review some gear, have a few laughs. You can find it on the app that you're using right now. Follow that show. All right, let's start the show.
Chris DeMakes
00:01:52.736 - 00:01:56.620
Welcome to the Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Colin True
00:01:58.040 - 00:03:27.312
Last week and another sign that Toto, we are for sure not in Kansas anymore. The outdoor Industry association announced that it would be partnering with the switchback trade show in 2025.
This came after the announcement this past summer that the OIA parted ways with outdoor retailer, another Toto slash Kansas moment, because for a long time, the OIA and or were synonymous. For many folks, the outdoor industry association was simply the organization you had to join in order to get your booth discount at Orlando.
So naturally, the online commentary arrived swiftly when the news broke about the OIA partnering up with Or's biggest competitor. And for good reason.
Because, look, let's be honest here the topic of outdoor events and trade shows is something we're obsessed with in this industry. We all seem to agree that having a big gathering is important and something we all want.
But there's very little agreement about where and when to have that gathering.
And in some of that trade show discourse arose specific questions about the role of the OIA and where they should be leading on behalf of the industry. So to get some answers, I reached out to Kent Ebersol, the president of the Outdoor industry Association, and he's here on the show today.
And we talk about the decision to move on from or to team up with switchback and what the present and future focus of the OIA is and should be. Welcome back to the Rock fight, where today it's the OIA's big switchback decision with Ken Tavrsol.
All right, we're joined today by the president of the outdoor Industry association, Ken Ebersol. Welcome to the show, Ken.
Kent Ebersole
00:03:27.496 - 00:03:28.780
Thank you very much.
Colin True
00:03:29.120 - 00:03:33.780
So you're just back from the OIA's board of directors meeting. How did that all go?
Kent Ebersole
00:03:34.160 - 00:03:41.232
Fantastic. We do it in Chautauqua, in Boulder, and it's a great place to meet and talk about the future and be outdoors.
Colin True
00:03:41.416 - 00:03:56.842
That does feel very on brand that it's at Chautauqua in Boulder. You know, it feels like it's where it should be, frankly, should be in a cabin. Much to my chagrin.
I tend to pick a fight with Boulder in Colorado a lot. But it does make sense. I co signed that. That makes sense.
Kent Ebersole
00:03:56.986 - 00:04:06.250
Yeah. We had an office there for so many years that I think it just, it lives on when we come back once a year to be at that place. It's a wonderful place.
Colin True
00:04:06.370 - 00:04:31.696
Well, let's not beat around the bush and keep the audience waiting. Earlier this summer, the OIA, you guys announced that you were ending your relationship with ultra retailer.
And then just last week, you announced that you're gonna be beginning a new partnership next month with switchback, the current outdoor arm of the running event, and then in 2025 becoming a standalone competitor to outdoor retailer. So let's just, let's start with what happened over the summer. You know, why was it time to move on from the partnership with outdoor retailer?
Kent Ebersole
00:04:31.888 - 00:04:48.408
Sure. It's a good question. I think.
I think because I've been in the industry long enough, it's important to go back and talk about outdoor retailer in whole and I wouldn't be here if it were not for outdoor retailer. It's part of why were it's you and I met at outdoor retailer.
Colin True
00:04:48.464 - 00:04:48.744
That's right.
Kent Ebersole
00:04:48.752 - 00:06:10.948
That's what happens.
And it's been such an influential part of this industry and how we've moved forward and what we've done, the excitement at the show around innovation, it was real. It was real and tangible, and you could feel it. But the world changed and our industry changed, and it's continuing to change.
I've changed, and so we're not the only ones. And I recently met with the president of the International Housewares association.
They own their trade show and listen to him talk, and he just talked for 15 minutes about change. And so a lot of this is about change and about how we adopt change and what we do with that change. And that is not a bad thing. That's a good thing.
I've got a team, a staff of people that are all about change. The people at outdoor retailer Sean and Lindsey, they're super smart, they're really good people. I really enjoy them.
But that relationship was part of the change.
And by the way, rock fight, you were here because of change, and ten years ago, there was no podcast like this, and the media world changed, and here you are. Right. So we're all part of that. It's not a bad thing. We've built a little team here, a mighty team around change at OIA.
Colin True
00:06:11.044 - 00:06:24.036
So then what was intriguing about teaming up with switchback? Like, what was the looking at that, the change, being the kind of primary driver of sort of ending an era and then beginning a new one.
What was it about switchback that led you feel like this was the right decision today?
Kent Ebersole
00:06:24.228 - 00:08:00.668
Sure. I think it's tough. Cause to me, there's three or four really good reasons why. I think, first off, and I could interchange these, really.
But I think, first off, the people, Christina Henderson, Mark Sullivan, Beth Gordon, Marcus Wolf, just fantastic people. I've known them for a long time. They're just good people.
And I met a lot of them, the C suite or the corporate team, when I was at active interest media probably ten or 15 years ago, when we were in an acquisition mode and we were talking to them, and I liked them then and I like them now. So really good people. Secondly, I like the focus of what they've presented. I really like the focus.
They're not trying to be a show for everyone all at once on day one. They're not trying to be a race to see who has the biggest booth. They're just focused on the kinds of companies and brands that will be there.
And I think, to me, that means impact for OIA members it really means that if there is some focus right now, there will be greater impact. And I really like that. I think we all like that.
And then I guess, thirdly, I don't know if the word is thoughtfulness, but they really did their homework. They presented it to us. They have a nice long term solution. They have a proven track record of bringing groups together, especially with tre.
So I think that to me equates to retailer value, brand value. I really appreciate that and like that. So to me, you know, people, intent, focus, long term plan, that's a lot rolled up into one.
Colin True
00:08:00.844 - 00:08:16.796
What do you anticipate? Like just thinking about the presence you guys have had at outdoor retail over the years. Are you anticipating doing something similar at switchback?
How do you feel like you guys, and it's early. Well, I guess it's not that early days. We're talking next month, right, as the show.
So how do you feel like the OIA will show up at switchback this fall?
Kent Ebersole
00:08:16.988 - 00:09:13.340
Yeah. And to be clear, our partnership with them officially begins in June of 2025. So our presence this fall will be limited.
We'll have some component to speak at the show and we're discussing that right now.
But we have space and we will talk, but in June of 2025, our ability to be part of the planning, part of the theme of what's discussed, innovation, how we talk about the challenges in the industry. We're heavily part of that conversation with them. They've invited us into that.
We will lead a lot of those sessions and those discussions and have impact on where the direction that the show goes from a thought leadership standpoint. I think that's really important. And we really like that opportunity to really be part of that theme and bring it together, wrap it all up.
Colin True
00:09:13.960 - 00:09:24.990
Is this a similar to, maybe not similar because there was decades involved with outro retailer, but how long do you feel like, what's the upfront commitment to switchback as you guys are starting this relationship?
Kent Ebersole
00:09:25.410 - 00:09:26.818
What do you mean upfront commitment?
Colin True
00:09:26.914 - 00:09:33.310
I mean, are you like, we're signed up for five years or ten years or is it like, you know, gotcha.
Kent Ebersole
00:09:34.690 - 00:09:43.430
We have a nice partnership with them. It's not an exclusive partnership with them. We have a nice partnership with them that'll get us through the next couple of years.
Colin True
00:09:43.730 - 00:11:03.098
So that's a great segue then to kind of get into sort of the larger outdoor events and sort of the role the OIA plays. Right.
So events are a topic where, and this has been kind of an interesting thing to observe over the last few years where the industry is simultaneously aligned and that we all agree that events are important and we want to attend them. But then we're also completely at odds on what that actually means. And kind of, you mentioned there's been a lot of change.
We're in this kind of new era, but for the better part of four decades.
Look, there was one national gathering that happened twice a year, and whether you were a retailer brand or part of the media or just looking for someone to finance your big adventure for you, you turned up to outdoor retailer. And that is completely fractured now because there's more options.
And on top of, there are a lot of voices from the industry, particularly on LinkedIn, that criticize the state of shows.
Last week, Peter Sachs, the GM of Loa, wrote the following in a post that went up after the switchback and OIA announcement came out, Peter wrote, just bear with me for a second here. I want to read this to you.
What OIA could have done was show some independent industry leadership by staying neutral between switchback and outdoor retailer grassroots and the regional rep groups to work and find consensus about dates that work for all the various entities.
So all of that to kind of say, you know, is staying neutral something that was considered, was that on the table, or did you feel like you always needed to have an alignment with an existing show?
Kent Ebersole
00:11:03.234 - 00:13:40.970
So first off, I'm not really sure what he means by staying neutral. I don't really know if I understand that. So what I would say is I'm just so much a bigger fan of talking in person than social media.
And you can look at my LinkedIn and you can see that I'm lazy. There's a lot of requests to connect with people, and I'm sorry, it's not because I don't want to. Just a little bit lazy on LinkedIn.
And so I just think it's easier to say things on social media that you might not say in person or you might interpret differently. So I'm all about talking about this, and I appreciate that opportunity. Now, to be fair, I've known Peter for a long time. I consider him friends.
I suspect we've known each other for 20 years. We don't always agree, and sometimes we disagree a lot. I think his voice is really important, and I think it's an important voice in the industry.
But there's others. There's a lot of others.
And some of those voices that I hear, that I talk to and I listen to have never been to or, and they've never been to Goa for a variety of reasons, and there's a lot of those people. So I have traveled for 29 weeks out of the 41 weeks so far in this year. This is the 41st week of the year, 29 of those weeks.
And in those 29 weeks, I've met with CEO's, small, medium, large businesses. I met with brands, retailers, owners, practitioners, team members at lunch, dinner, breakfasts, product managers, founders, you name it.
If they were a member or of OA or I was trying to get them to be a member.
I've tried to meet with as many people possible, and if you're sitting out there listening to this right now and you say, well, you didn't come meet me, my lovely wife also would like me to be at home every once in a while. Second to that. And I mean second to that. I do have a really nice new road bike that I need that needs to be ridden before it gets too cold this year.
So I think, and I know, and I've talked to them, that there's a rising generation of industry leaders, again, that have not been to or for whatever reason, and cannot go to Goa for whatever reason, because they're not part of that select group of people and they don't go to the regional events and they look at switchback and they're stoked. They are stoked to have a place where they can show up and be part of the convening, part of the community and part of the industry.
That industry, that group of people, that group of people is not as vocal in LinkedIn. They're out there, though. All you have to do is spend 29 weeks going from brand to brand to brand and talk.
Colin True
00:13:41.050 - 00:13:43.386
That's all we got to do. Just the 29 weeks.
Kent Ebersole
00:13:43.578 - 00:14:13.940
And I will tell you, if you looked at my Google, I think we talked about this.
If you look at my Google Maps for this month of September, ironically, 29 also, I was at 29 different cities in the month of September meeting with members. So I listened to a lot of them. This is. That's what I heard. I heard there's a desire to come, to switchback and be part of that.
So that was a collective member response from us when we decided to have this partnership. And there is overwhelming support for that event.
Colin True
00:14:14.960 - 00:14:57.690
Yeah, I don't want to.
No, I don't want to feel like, Peter, if you listen to this, that I was doing you dirty by cherry picking one piece of your post, because there's a lot more there. I think the sentiment being either show up at all the events or don't go to any of the events. Right? Was kind of the sentiment. Right.
Which, I mean, I just, sitting back, I could understand that. Right. It's like you're going to have members at all of them.
You know, like, to your point, I think you're, I understand your, what you just described is like, listen, here's the consensus of the ones I met with, but there's going to be folks who still go to, or who do go to Goa and all the rep shows and everything, so. And I, you know, I could see that point of view of like, listen, I. How do we, how should I view the OIA if they're only going to one?
But, you know, you guys are definitely in sort of a rock and hard place situation with that. Like, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't, and everybody's going to have an opinion.
Kent Ebersole
00:14:58.440 - 00:18:37.590
Yeah, but I don't think that that means we're not just going to one. I mean, I went to Goa this year and I'd love to come back. I hope that they open that invite again to come back. I think I believe in what they do.
I believe in Gabe and I believe in that board, and I would love to come back. I do not think our intention at something like Goa is to get in the way of a really good show.
Like, I don't think we need to do that, but I think we should have a presence there. I'd like to have a presence there. Yeah.
I mean, I think there's a possibility now, obviously this year with outdoor retailer that the dates and timing don't work. And I know dates and timing are a lot, but let's go back one step here. I think it's important to understand what our strategy is.
And number one, very important is for us to own events. I think it's important for us to own events.
And I'm not talking about some sort of fiduciary ownership of events, but the content and the theme and the deliverables and how we manage that is important for us to maintain that. And we learned that over the last four or five years that it's important for us.
And so we introduced the catalyst conference in Seattle this year with support from Gore Tex. With generous support from Gore Tex. It's November 13 in Seattle and we sold it out in a hot minute. And we plan really small. Right.
And it was, it was, we, we didn't think we're going to have a thousand people there or 500 people there. It was intended to be a regional event. It got a little bit bigger than that. We're oversold that's the kind of event we want.
It's focuses on sustainability. It's a day of sustainability. Next year, I think we'll have a couple days of sustainability in a different location.
We, I hear you East coast members, we're coming east next year. Everything doesn't have to be west, so we will come east. And we're doing it at the mountaineers. So we're at an outdoor location.
The generous help from Tom Vogel and the Mountaineers and his team, they're fantastic. I believe that's part of what we should do. We'll reinvigorate Capitol summit in April in Washington, DC. So owned events.
There may be more, but right now we're going to start and it's about impact, about member impact. Secondly, strategy, we have to have really strong partnerships. And switchback is the first of what may be many strong partnerships right now.
That's our first dip back into the partnership pool. We believe in it for what I told you last time, and so we'll see what happens. But that's our second, or that's the second part of this strategy.
And by the way, again, we love switchback. It's not an exclusive partnership. They're not trying to restrict us from being in other places and other locations. They're fantastic.
They're super understanding. They believe in the industry. Lastly, and the third part of this is we need to be where our members are.
And so they may not always be at Goa or at, or at switchback. They may be at places like functional fabric fair or other events in the industry.
And so we'll continue to have a relationship with those brands or those events in which we'll be there and we may do something. We may keynote, we may have an event, we may do something. It's not an official partnership. It's not like we are the themed partner.
We're the official partner of that event, but we'll be there and we'll be present and we'll be super active. So three parts.
We're going to own events, we're going to partner on a limited basis and we'll be at as many events as possible to support and be active.
Colin True
00:18:37.770 - 00:20:29.282
I can't imagine anyone having an issue hearing you say that because I think that it goes back to my original point when we moved into the events at large, that there's not an agreement. We all want to gather, but we all disagree on how we should gather.
And when I hear people just throw out the blanket statement and I'm moderating a trade show event at outdoor media summit next week. This is something that's going to come up there.
It's such an easy thing to say that we should have a large national gathering, but what people forget is the reason we had a large national gathering before that was universally accepted. It came out of trade. It was a trade show, and it grew up around that. But there was a root purpose for why people were coming together.
Now, consumer shows are great. I understand them, and I wish outside all the best with its festival. I sounded like the music part, at least.
I think there were some issues with maybe some of the other parts, but the music part went really well. I gotta tell you, that's not for me. Like, I don't care if it was in San Diego and it was ten minutes from my house, I probably still wouldn't go.
Cause I'm just not a music festival guy. Right? So a trade show, it's like when I was working for brands. Well, you gotta come to this as part of your job, and then it grows around it.
Same thing with another good example that doesn't get talked about enough with this is the GoPro mountain games that's been around for years. Frankly, I had more of a chance at you getting me to the mountain games into a music festival.
But even then it's like, do I really feel like going to Vail? Like to go watch people kayak or what? I better just go kayaking myself. Kayaking myself when we can't.
The reason why I don't think this is ever going to be a settled debate is because that blanket thing is so easy to say that we need a national gathering. But you gotta understand why you're gathering to begin with.
So hearing that the OA is planning on, I mean, I look back to the rendezvous back in the day, and I always felt like that was an underutilized model. It felt whenever we'd go to those that it was great. But I didn't always know if it was, you know, it was like, okay, why are we going to this?
Other than it's just. It is just to get together.
So if you can create a meaningful reason, whether it's sustainability, you know, going to DC, I think that's something that you could probably potentially grow.
Kent Ebersole
00:20:29.386 - 00:20:35.738
Yeah. So I have a couple comments on this. I hear you about rendezvous. I don't think we have intentions.
Colin True
00:20:35.754 - 00:20:44.110
We didn't know time, right. We had or. And said, what is this other thing? I'm not like, trying to be Monday morning quarterback. It was what it was, you know.
Kent Ebersole
00:20:44.890 - 00:21:26.848
I think that's why Catalyst sold out so quick. What are we doing here? And if you are part of this, come. And if you're not part of this, you're probably not going to enjoy that event.
And we've been very clear about telling people what it's about. Capital summit. You want to engage at the highest level in Washington, DC about issues that impact our industry.
We have an opportunity for you to do that. I'll just go back. One other step. I said in the very beginning, outdoor retailer, I've been going for a long time.
I've been going since it was in Reno. And if that ages me, then it ages me.
But every single show I ever went to, including the ones that had 25 or 30,000 people and thousands of exhibitors, there was grumbling. Every single show I've been to, there.
Colin True
00:21:26.864 - 00:21:28.970
Was everyone about something.
Kent Ebersole
00:21:29.550 - 00:21:44.702
And this may not be the best analogy, but think about go back to high school. And in high school I had a hard enough time in chemistry class just keeping up.
There was always someone in the background that was doing the grumbling that dragged the whole class down.
Colin True
00:21:44.846 - 00:21:45.174
Right?
Kent Ebersole
00:21:45.222 - 00:22:58.642
So I don't, I would go down to a retailer, I'd hear that grumbling, and I'm like, I just can't be involved in that. It's just too much because it was a fantastic show for the world, for the outdoor industry at that time.
So I fully get that maybe it won't be solved or resolved, but I don't want to be a part of the grumbling. I just want to be a part of the future. And if our members say this is part of the future, then we should be there. One other comment.
You mentioned rock and hard place. And I don't know if I look at it that way, I look at it a little bit different and maybe this, I could be wrong.
It feels to me like if it's a rock and hard place, you have two unpleasant solutions and oh, crap, it's either this or that. And I don't think it's that situation. I think of what's happening in North Carolina or Florida right now. They're between a rock and a hard place.
We're just trying to make better decisions about our businesses and we have a couple options. I think the option of going to switchback, obviously is a fantastic option.
Goa is a fantastic option for some people, outdoor retailers going to work for them. But we've chosen to work in that partnership level of our strategy with Goa. I don't think it's a rock and hard place for us.
Colin True
00:22:58.706 - 00:23:50.710
Got you okay, well, last thing I want to talk about is just sort of where the Oa is and where it should go. And just, like speaking, I mean, even I've had this kind of notion over the years.
I always just kind of associated the OIA with or, which is, I think this is why we want to have this conversation. Right. This is a lot of view, the way the industry is, what the role of the OIA is. And like, oh, that's.
That's the group that gets me my discount on my booth. Right. That's kind of typically how a lot of folks, at least at brands anyway, might view the OIA.
And, you know, so just wonder, while we have you, I want to kind of say, like, what, what is the purpose that the role that the organization serves today, and what do you want it to serve? Because the other, in contrast, you, and over the last few years, to your point about change, like the outdoor rec roundtable, has gained notoriety.
And so what exactly, you know, how do you view the OA and fits into its role in 2024? And then what do you think it should be in the future? What would you like it to be in the future?
Kent Ebersole
00:23:51.290 - 00:24:02.430
Sure. Well, you hit the nail on the head with the old discount on my expensive boost base, and I got to join the OIA.
Colin True
00:24:03.490 - 00:24:05.090
I got to get my discount.
Kent Ebersole
00:24:05.250 - 00:24:12.310
I got to tell you, as a business model, that'll work for a little bit, but it's a really bad reason to.
Colin True
00:24:13.000 - 00:24:17.712
Well, no, but then people forget what you actually do, right? I mean, that's kind of the point. Yeah.
Kent Ebersole
00:24:17.856 - 00:28:04.886
Right. And so I've been here two years, and we have spent two years fixing that business model.
And for anybody to say, I have no idea what Oa does, well, first of all, we have to have a solid foundation to do anything that we do.
And it's not easy when you have a business model that relies on a trade show, like you just said, and also a business model where we would go to a trade show and people would think we were one and the same, and we'd pat ourselves on the back and go, we're pretty good at what we do because there was a lot of money coming in. When you actually have to be accountable for what you do, it forces you to really work hard and be super focused.
And a lot of the things that we might have done in the past just may not matter to members as much as we thought.
So we've spent two years fixing the foundation and working on what matters to members, and there were good things that we did just don't have the ability to do it in this new business model. So I'll tell you, there's three things that we focus, three or four things we focus on right now. Four things.
Number one is government affairs or advocacy. And it's just really simple. We are fighting on behalf of the industry in Washington, DC and at the state level for the needs of the industry.
And that's sometimes in trade, it's sometimes in recreation, conservation, access, equity, those kinds of things. But we're in there for the battle and we've been in there and we have a brand new senior director of advocacy. And she is phenomenal, Jacqueline Levy.
And people are going to love her and she will bring strategic value and direction to this organization and more voice than we've ever had. So I'm super stoked about government affairs and where we go with that. But it's a fight. We are fighting in there.
And if you've ever come to cap summit or if you've ever come to one of fly ins, you know what we're fighting for. And I'm happy to help people about that. So secondly, that's a simple way to tell you what we do there.
Secondly, by the way, as part of that advocacy fight, we will introduce this year some workforce development initiatives, specifically in the DEI workforce space. We've heard this for years. With the unfortunate demise of camber, there's a little bit of space that we can pick up there. We have two funded phases.
We have three phases, but we're ready to roll out phase one. It'll happen soon. It'll come under that advocacy umbrella. And we have a lot of support from a lot of industry people.
We just haven't opened up that door yet. But it'll happen soon. We've hired this person, so I'm really excited to talk about that.
All call you when we're ready and have the correct people on this call. Okay. Sustainability. Again, we work on behalf of members and the industry these complex issues of sustainability.
We do a little bit of offense and we do a little bit of defense offenses and climate action core where we will help your company be prepared in that climate fight that we're in. And secondly, right now it's in chemicals, mostly in p five, but there's a long list of other compliance issues coming.
We kind of take our government affairs team and we kind of take our sustainability team, we mash them together at the state level and we're helping play defense in that end. But I tell you, there's no one that knows more about PFAS than our consultants that come in and help our brands on a daily basis.
And for those couple hundred members that are engaged in our programs, I don't know what they do without it. They just don't have the time, ability or money to go hire these people on their own.
And the people that do the larger brands are there supporting them. It's classic industry. I'm competing with you, but I'm going to help you because we're all going to get better?
Colin True
00:28:05.038 - 00:28:48.728
Well, that's kind of what I'm wondering with some of these things.
What I'm usually critical of on the show when it comes to brands and sustainability and circularity efforts, it's usually just, listen, you're trying to find the way around. How do I get more sustainable or circular without sacrificing any profits along the way?
And I recognize that I used to work for brands sales director, so I understand the need for profits.
But there's also at some point you look at the larger problem and realize, well, you're not going to get there probably unless you, like, you have to take some big leaps here and that's going to cost you some money along the way. So how was your role?
How does the OAS role kind of fit into that to say, hey, look, you're a member, we're supporting you, but I gotta strong arm you a little bit right now into doing probably what we all need you to do.
Kent Ebersole
00:28:48.784 - 00:29:24.780
Two answers to that. They might not be perfect, but I'll tell you what we're trying to do.
We're trying to broaden the education in sustainability so that if you can't commit to that high level, if you can't get a seat at the table, because you don't have time, staff, resources, you can still start thinking about how to do it better. There's a big leap to that table, as you said, and not everybody can do it. We have resources. We're trying to open them up.
So if you're one of those brands or retailers that just can't do it, we're gonna try to provide some resources. We have not been good at that. We are gonna get much better at that. Julie Brown is our sustainability director. She's phenomenal.
Colin True
00:29:24.820 - 00:29:28.012
She came from that world, downtown Julie Brown from MTV.
Kent Ebersole
00:29:28.196 - 00:29:36.404
You got her. Sorry, I couldn't affectionately call her that. She's way better than.
Colin True
00:29:36.492 - 00:29:42.132
It's amazing. Can you imagine going through life, every gen Xer in the world coming up to her like, oh, my God, it's downtown Julie Brown.
Kent Ebersole
00:29:42.156 - 00:31:15.366
She's way better. Than downtown Julie Brown, I will tell you that, knows that.
So the second part of that answer is this massive investment that we've made into research and data and insights, and it will continue next year, and it will continue specifically in opening that door.
I know, I suspect from talking to brands that are involved in these sustainability programs, that just because your pack is fully sustainable or recyclable or has full circularity doesn't mean the consumer's gonna buy it. And if it's $200 compared to $100 backpack, you gotta prove yourself, because I don't think the consumer's there yet. Here's the thing.
I just know that anecdotally, from the brands that have made the commitment we wanna invest into the research to figure out what that means, what the consumer behavior is, why they're doing it, and also at the different age gaps, at the different levels of activities. So I'm a core backpacker.
I'll spend $300 on a backpack versus the casual consumer that goes out there and says, why would I spend more money on this just because it is recyclable or whatever it is? We're going to try to help the industry figure that out by investing heavily in 2025 in that space. I think it's more than just investing in the data.
It's about analyzing that data and delivering it back in the. So what? I say it all the time. So here's the data. So what?
Colin True
00:31:15.438 - 00:31:16.926
So what does it mean? So what?
Kent Ebersole
00:31:16.998 - 00:31:33.438
Yeah, so we're going to make an investment in that, in more data, giving more data, but also providing that. So what?
And trying to be an industry leader so that when you're making decisions, you can look at this content and say, this helped us make better decisions.
Colin True
00:31:33.534 - 00:31:49.954
Yeah, I think that this all goes back to your opening remarks about change. Right. And I think the.
And good, I appreciate you saying we probably haven't been doing as good a job as we should have been because of the, you know, you kind of get, you know, got a little. Got a little fat on the, on the trade show money back in the day. Right. Which is all predates you, so. But the. But the.
Kent Ebersole
00:31:50.122 - 00:31:52.778
Are you. Are you saying I'm fat? Is that what you just said?
Colin True
00:31:52.874 - 00:32:45.842
The organization? No, but I think I recognize it when the last Denver show.
I went to the last Denver, or which was the first time I had seen the show post pandemic where it was mostly like pool toys and there was no of the legacy outdoor brands there. But then the OIA presentation was all about hiking and kayaking and participation. I'm like, this is not matching what's happening right now.
So to hear you guys spending some time taking a step back and really thinking about this, I think is super encouraging.
I guess the only other question I have, and this might seem like a dumb question, but I've heard multiple people say this, how do you differentiate from the outdoor rec roundtable? Both of you lobby in Washington? There seems like there is some crossover, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
But when you kind of look at, and obviously, and what you just described in terms of member services, circularity, sustainability for brands and industry stuff, that is not what they do. But on the surface, someone who's maybe not as familiar with these things might not quite get the difference.
Kent Ebersole
00:32:45.986 - 00:34:18.450
Yeah. Before we go there, I would be remiss to mention also that our foundation, the outdoor foundation, is another part of what we do.
It engages in participation. And we helped over 90,000 underserved kids, youth get out in the industry.
And to me, that is the difference between growth in youth that we're seeing, especially at the BIPOC level or not. And if we don't do that as an industry, not just us, but all the other great nonprofits out there doing this, in ten years, we're going to feel it.
And as the population changes, so it's really an important part of what we do. Okay. Or I think they're a fantastic team. I think they do great work. To me, it's really simple.
There's this Venn diagram, and they do work over here, and we do work over here. And in the middle we meet. And. And sometimes the middle is a little bit thicker than others, and sometimes it's thinner.
I think that Jess and myself and our teams know where we meet in the middle. And when we meet in the middle and we decide to engage on policy or something, we work well together. It's really fantastic.
We have to be comfortable, though, with letting them do their thing, and they're comfortable with us doing our thing.
And to be very clear about that, the needs for a boot manufacturer, a footwear manufacturer, are different than the needs of somebody making snowmobiles.
Colin True
00:34:18.830 - 00:34:31.377
And that's how I've always described it. It's like, you know, we are very OIA, very human powered driven, or are kind of like the 90 plus categories and the BeA report.
Like, they kind of do it for everybody.
Kent Ebersole
00:34:31.573 - 00:35:08.854
Yeah, but some of that work, we mean the middle. Some of that work, you might get a snowmobiler and a snowshoer, and they look at each other with crossed eyes.
But at the end of the day, that space that they're on is protected because we did work together. And if either one of those groups can't be out there doing their thing, then that's on both of us. Orr and oa.
So I have great respect for what they do. We really, when we focus, we do a great job. I was on the phone with them a couple weeks ago with Senator Bennett from Colorado.
As a group of people, some human powered, some non human powered.
Colin True
00:35:08.902 - 00:35:09.254
Right.
Kent Ebersole
00:35:09.342 - 00:35:54.358
We're fighting to preserve and conserve and make sure that legislation is passed to benefit all of us. And there's a lot of legislation where we both agree upon.
There's some legislation out there to make sure that these small towns that are gateway towns to industry, recreation, have affordable places for people to live so that they can be your waiter or waitress or be your park ranger or whatever that is.
Because when you go out there and you come back from your hiking or snowshoeing or snowmobiling trip and you can't find a decent place to eat or a good place to stay for the night, that's a miss. And that's what we're fighting for together on some of those things. So I think they do great work. I'm on the board. I believe in what they do.
I don't think people should be too confused about it.
Colin True
00:35:54.454 - 00:35:54.710
Right.
Kent Ebersole
00:35:54.750 - 00:35:56.102
We're both fighting for that.
Colin True
00:35:56.126 - 00:36:17.110
Yeah. That's the next rock fight. I really pick that up really good. I zero in on. I'm so tired of the silos and the walls we've all put up around ourselves.
Like, look, you don't have to like motorsports, but you have to acknowledge they exist. And you may have some common interests with the people who are doing different things differently than you. And does that just get mad?
Like, you know, you're. We're all support when we're talking about legislation, we're talking about access. Like, it's all the same.
Kent Ebersole
00:36:18.050 - 00:36:44.298
Jess, as most people know, Jess came from Oia. She knows better what our needs are than anybody else here.
And she will fight like crazy for the needs, the broader needs of this industry, and she's really good at it. And I greatly value that. I don't, you know, there's. Nobody has our, our team, their team. I don't believe there's a beef.
We're very clear about what we do.
Colin True
00:36:44.354 - 00:36:53.226
Yeah. Oh, no. And I don't, I don't really should get the sense that people think there's a beef. I think there's just a little confusion right.
It's like, how am I supposed to do both of these things?
Kent Ebersole
00:36:53.298 - 00:37:04.930
But we don't have confusion. We know. And again, her team is fantastic. And the energy that they bring to the table, it's real. It's real energy.
Colin True
00:37:05.090 - 00:37:05.790
Yeah.
Kent Ebersole
00:37:06.330 - 00:37:06.658
All right.
Colin True
00:37:06.674 - 00:37:22.542
Well, hey, listen, we really appreciate you coming on.
I think I'm excited to hear about what your plans for the future, the acknowledgements you made about the past and how you want to build off of it and grow. Grow the organization, I think. Love to you back on. Let's check in in like six, eight months, see where things are, see how we're progressing.
Really appreciate you making some time for us today, Ken.
Kent Ebersole
00:37:22.606 - 00:37:22.758
Yeah.
Colin True
00:37:22.774 - 00:37:23.046
Yeah.
Kent Ebersole
00:37:23.118 - 00:37:50.470
And I'll tell you what, if you, if you people out there that listen to this, send me good or nasty comments on LinkedIn, I'm not responding. Not because I don't want to respond. Just not my thing. My phone number has been the same phone number since 1995. Many people have it. Call me.
Don't call me at midnight. Text me. My email address is easy to get. Just email me. I'm happy to converse, so I'm wide open to have conversations.
Colin True
00:37:50.810 - 00:37:52.754
All right, man. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming on.
Kent Ebersole
00:37:52.922 - 00:37:54.470
Thanks, Colin. Take care.
Colin True
00:37:55.370 - 00:38:19.222
All right. That's the show for today. Big thanks to my guest, Kent Eversoll. What did you think about what he had to say?
What shows are you planning on going to in 2025? We want your feedback. Send your emails to myrockfightmail.com. the Rock Fight Rockfight is a production of Rock Fight, LLC. I'm Colin true.
Thanks for listening. Here to take us out, it's Chris demakes with the rock fight. Fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:38:19.286 - 00:39:20.130
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Welcome to the rock fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big fights about topics that we find interesting, like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Welcome to the Rock flight Rock flight Rock Fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.