The Outdoor Industry: From Wild To Wealth
- colin7931
- 2 hours ago
- 38 min read
Today Doug opens the container with outdoor industry insider, Eoin Comerford.
Doug begins the show by reflecting on the evolution of the outdoor recreation industry and humanity's changing relationship with nature. What began as mere survival has changed to become the pursuit of recreation, contemplation, and connection within the natural world.
Doug is then joined by the former CEO of Moosejaw Mountaineering Eoin Comerford. Today Eoin advises emerging brand and offers his insight into the outdoor industry on The Rock Fight podcast. The conversation highlights the economic significance of outdoor recreation, which now represents a substantial portion of the U.S. GDP, underscoring its critical role in cultural and environmental discourse.
Together Eoin and Doug explore the intersection of politics and environmental stewardship, emphasizing the necessity for inclusivity and sustainability within the modern outdoor industry.
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Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:00.720 - 00:08:28.850
Hey everyone.
Before we get started today, I want to thank you for listening to Open Container and ask that you please subscribe to the show by clicking Follow on the podcast app you're using right now. Following the podcast is the best way to ensure that we will continue to crack open the container every single week.
Thank you and let's start the show. Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzpahn. I'm a journalist, writer, and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I just found a pair of Nordic walking poles in the bowels of my garage.
On this podcast, we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community.
Let's get some Today we're talking about the outdoor recreation industry, the business that has grown alongside the phenomena of people going into the outdoors.
Not to carve out a living or simply survive, but to recreate, to contemplate, and, almost ironically, to reconnect with the way people used to experience the natural world.
Now, spending time outdoors often requires specialized gear, clothing, ice axes, hiking poles, mountain bikes, camp stoves, hunting rifles, fly rods, even headphones, Frisbees, and hammocks. For some, this shift in how we interact with nature reflects a broader transformation.
The way we view the outdoors has changed as we humans have gained greater control over our environment. Recreation is now a function of a better quality of life, better working conditions, and prosperity. There's something I've always noticed.
The more democratic a nation is, the better its environmental laws and the and the more respect it tends to have for its natural spaces. Dictatorships and countries that view the state as the sole purpose of existence disregard the environment.
This was true in the Eastern bloc in Soviet Russia, and remains true in modern day China.
Looking at our own country, the fascination with the outdoors began early, particularly in New England, with the Transcendentalists, thinkers like Thoreau and Emerson. People are reimagining what it means to be human and what our place is on this earth. Of course, this is a narrow lens.
Many cultures and societies, long before European settlers arrived, had complex worldviews that valued the outdoors and nature not as a resource to conquer, but as an integral part of life. Emerson once said, the world is emblematic. Parts of speech are metaphors because the whole of nature is a metaphor for the human mind.
But the ideals of the Transcendentalists didn't align with a country surging towards Manifest Destiny, seeing vast landscapes as a resource for prosperity and committing genocide and subjugation in the process.
After the continent was fully occupied, we began to manage was at this point that people like Teddy Roosevelt and Gifford Pinchot began to think about how we could preserve and utilize public lands. They saw the resources as finite and understood they needed to be managed not just for extraction but for enjoyment.
There was a small but growing appreciation for wild and wondrous places simply existing. Roosevelt famously said upon seeing the Grand Canyon, leave it as it is. You cannot improve it. After World War II, everything changed.
Humanity had proven its power over nature by splitting the atom and gaining the ability to destroy life on Earth. At the same time, people in the US Became more prosperous.
They had better jobs, better homes, and for the first time, working people had something new leisure time. That leisure became a gateway to outdoor recreation. Hunting, fishing, backpacking, cycling, or simply soaking in the beauty of the wilderness.
In the spirit of the Transcendentalists, this experience was now available to the broader public. In many ways, the modern outdoor industry began in the 1950s. Yes, some brands did come earlier.
Columbia Sportswear dates back to the 1930s, Helly Hansen goes back 140 years, Orvis was founded in 1856, Stanley in 1913, Carhart in 1889, and the German brand Schoeffel was founded in 1804 in Bavaria, long before Germany even existed. But the idea of recreation as an industry aligns with the post atomic, post war era in the U.S. lawmakers recognize this too.
In 1958, Congress created the Outdoor Recreation Resources Review Commission to answer three basic questions. What are the outdoor recreation wants and needs of the American people?
What are the existing recreation resources in the US and what policies and programs will ensure those needs are met? In 1962, William H.
White, who on Wikipedia is described as an urbanist, sociologist, organizational analyst, journalist, and people watcher, wrote a report for the commission titled Open Space Action. I love the COVID of this report. It looks like it could have come out today.
It's an illustration featuring a biker, people on the beach, a family in front of a canvas tent, a hunter, someone fishing from a boat. The report showed great foresight.
The commission understood that outdoor recreation would become a primary need and that land would need to be managed accordingly.
In the introduction, White most open space legislation passes with surprisingly large pluralities, but this is a fact many legislatures don't know yet. The legislative history of 1961 proves the political sex appeal of open space and will have a very stimulating effect on the undecided.
Despite that ribald metaphor, White and the commission were right.
Today, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis the economic output of outdoor recreation is 1.2 trillion, surpassing farming, mining and utilities. It makes up 2.3% of the US GDP and accounts for 3.1% of US employment. The takeaway Outdoor recreation matters to Americans.
The outdoor industry is real, thriving, growing and represents a path forward that puts incredible responsibility on brands in the space. Many have stepped up when it comes to sustainability and inclusivity.
Though there is still much work to be done, it also means there's still plenty of room for innovation, entrepreneurship, and clean alternatives to traditional industrial models. Lessons that can be learned from the outdoor industry itself.
My guest today has been immersed in the business of the outdoor industry industry for his entire career. He understands not just the long history and current state of the industry, but also its potential to be a vital force for the future.
Owen Comerford served as the CEO of Moosejaw for 16 years, overseeing successful exits to Walmart and Dick's Sporting Goods. He led Moose Jaw to successive years of profitable growth, positioning it as one of the top US Outdoor retail brands.
He now works with emerging brands in the outdoor industry as well as startups, private equity and venture capital firms in the retail and consumer mid market sector. You can hear him weekly on the Rock Fight podcast. Now let's open the container with Owen Comerford.
Okay, I am quite excited to have Owen Comerford here and if you are a follower of the Rock Fight, our parent podcast, you hear Owen on it every Monday and and his valuable contributions to the outdoor business conversation. And today we're going to get into business and maybe even a little deeper than that. Good to have you on Owen.
Eoin Comerford
00:08:28.930 - 00:08:30.370
Thanks for having me on. It's great.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:08:30.450 - 00:08:41.650
Well, let's just dive right into it. I'm gonna ask you a question that I also asked Chris Goddard as an outdoor industry insider, and it is simply, what is the outdoor industry?
Eoin Comerford
00:08:42.210 - 00:09:45.130
You know, it's funny, in the outdoor industry we love to throw around this $1.2 trillion number. I mean, I can't tell you how many pitch decks I from emerging brands that talk about it. It's $1.2 trillion and that is a great number.
And I'm not trying to denigrate it at all, but it is truly all inclusive. It is everything from what people spent at the hotel minibar on their way to a national park to the employee that was doing the valet parking.
I mean, it's very all inclusive.
And when I think of the outdoor industry maybe a little bit more myopically, I'm thinking more about the brands and the products and the Retailers that are selling those products into the industry. So more of a product focus. And that number is probably globally maybe about a tenth of the 1.2 trillion.
So closer to maybe 120 billion, which is not nothing, but it's less than the 1.2 trillion number.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:45.450 - 00:09:56.860
And is there a way, what are the borders for outdoor brands? Like what? When you think of the outdoor industry, does it include something way out on the edges of lifestyle?
Eoin Comerford
00:09:57.100 - 00:11:13.780
Good question. Yeah, I mean, I tend to think of it more as the folks that used to show up to or back in the day. That's kind of who I.
So it's a lot of the, it's the north faces, the Patagonias, the arcturuses, the cdmsrs, all those sorts of folks. And again, in my little myopic world, it's a little bit more in the kind of.
It's definitely at its core it's hike, camp, climb, but then also you've got some bike in there, maybe some trail run. I mean it's been a bit, it's a little bit, been a bit squishier over the years. Right.
The other thing too is, you know, there's the whole other outdoor industry which is the hunt fish side, which, you know, I mean, some people think, oh, you're all part of the same outdoor industry, but in many ways there's so little overlap in terms of people or brands or stuff. There's actually quite a bit of overlap in terms of customers though.
Like you'll have custom, you'll have fisher, you know, people who are game hunters who are wearing, you know, Gore Tex jackets from Arc' Teryx potentially. But of course now you've got Sitka and others that play that game. But you know, there is some overlap there.
But in terms of the retail world, I don't really think of that sort of as part of the little industry that at least I play.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:13.780 - 00:11:27.880
Sure, yeah, yeah. And I think that's an interesting way to frame it too. Right. Where do these people shop? Like, who are the similar people? Like them. Right.
Who do they hang out with? Who are they with?
Eoin Comerford
00:11:28.040 - 00:11:42.760
Because at its core, the outdoor industry that I think of as, you know, has a community aspect to it. And that community is those brands and those people that share sort of the passion around those specific, very specific activities.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:42.840 - 00:11:48.320
Yeah. And a lot of that is human powered recreation as well. Right. We're looking at. That's where we lose the.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:48.320 - 00:11:48.840
Exactly.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:49.000 - 00:12:02.100
And I know that that 1.2 trillion includes ART RVs, it includes ATVs and we're not really thinking of them in the same space though. As you said, those people can cross over too. You can ride an ATV and love to trail run.
Eoin Comerford
00:12:02.100 - 00:12:02.740
Exactly.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:02.820 - 00:12:08.020
So how do you think that 1.2 trillion number is useful? What does it represent?
Eoin Comerford
00:12:08.420 - 00:13:17.490
I think it's useful certainly in conversations we're having right now about things like public lands to where it just shows that it is a very important part of our economy, both from a dollars and cents perspective, but also from an employment perspective and lots of different ways.
And so when you're talking about taking away public lands, increased extraction, et cetera, et cetera, I do think it does help to frame that conversation around well, hey, they're not just sitting there doing nothing. They are actually producing monetarily and economically, but not in a way that's extractive.
So I think that's kind of an important point as we look at that whole public lands element.
And also just as we're lobbying for various things like the Explore act that we finally got passed late last year, and really garnering support across the aisles for those sorts of things. Because again, that outdoor industry does include a lot more than just maybe typically more left leaning side that maybe we would tend to play in.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:17.490 - 00:13:35.250
And that seems to be a really important point right now, that this idea of being outdoors, playing outdoors, whether you're doing it on a dirt bike or whether you're trail running and trad climbing, there's a shared love of this one thing that transcends any political party.
Eoin Comerford
00:13:35.810 - 00:14:56.320
Exactly.
I would say the one thing about the whole public lands debate that, you know, because I'm certainly all about protecting public lands and definitely very concerned with what we're seeing today coming out of the Department of the Interior.
That said though, I think there is a tendency, you know, within the more left leaning side of our industry to be dismissive of anybody who wants to do anything with public lands.
And you know, it's, it's very easy to be in that ivory tower when you're living in, let's say New York, where less than 1% of the state is our federal lands. Right. And you look down on people, let's say in Utah or Nevada or Alaska, which have more than 60%, 60% of the state being public lands.
And you look down on them and you say no, no, no, here are all these purity tests and you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do the other thing. And so I think we need to stop demonizing people around public lands and try to find ways to work together to protect public lands.
Because to your point, it is a bipartisan issue, but we need to think of it in a bipartisan way. I think that all the demonizing that does go on, I think it does actually potentially work against us protecting public lands in the long term.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:14:56.560 - 00:15:40.500
That's an interesting point. Yeah.
I know when I worked for the forest service in montana, I first got there, one of the things they gave me was this insane, insane use map which you unfolded. And it was just covered with, you know, everything was by township and range. So it was little grid.
And then it had, you know, 27 different colors, which told you, you know, what uses you could use in that land.
And at first it bothered me, but then it made me realize that, wow, there's a lot of different people engaging in a lot of different activities on this land. And an important reason, too, I guess, to fund land management agencies is how we can ensure this big group of people can all play together.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:40.900 - 00:16:21.490
Right. And. Exactly.
And I think that's the really concerning thing about the current administration is not just the loss of protections for public lands, but also the loss of the workforce that's needed to protect those lands at the same time. Right.
So it's like, it'd be one thing if you're saying, hey, listen, yes, we're going to do some things that maybe are going to open up this area or that area, but we're also going to make sure that we really enforce things and make sure that really that what we say is going to happen happens. It feels like right now it's neither of those things. Right.
It's like all access will be opened and we're not going to have anyone to even check to see what's happening is what we expect to happen.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:16:21.970 - 00:16:51.100
And that will bother everyone, probably, I guess, even except for maybe the. The worst dirt heads maybe won't care. But even they. I think we'll see what kind of damage can happen.
Because I know I've been out with atvers and dirt bikers. I like riding a dirt bike. And. And some of those, you know, the vast majority of dirt bikers, say, are pretty ethical.
They're not happy when, you know, another dirt biker goes and trashes up a meadow or something like that.
Eoin Comerford
00:16:51.340 - 00:17:02.720
Because also those dirt bikers are probably that probably they might be hunters and they understand the implications that that has for their wild places as well.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:17:02.880 - 00:17:20.720
Yeah, well, I like what you said, that those on the more liberal side are going to have to listen. Are going to have to listen a bit to people they might disagree with and vice versa. I mean, you mentioned the Explore act, right?
Only a year ago, maybe that that was passed and that was a bipartisan effort, wasn't it?
Eoin Comerford
00:17:21.180 - 00:17:22.940
Exactly. Yeah, absolutely.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:17:23.740 - 00:17:34.940
So what can we learn from that being passed to try to help us navigate through now when it seems like we're way in the red zone off on the right side?
Eoin Comerford
00:17:35.260 - 00:18:24.590
I think what we can learn from it is that there is a bipartisan support for public lands.
And if we can remind our elected officials that it is a bipartisan issue and if they screw it up, there's going to be sort of hell to pay from both sides.
I think the challenge though is that it does feel like when you're being attacked and public lands are being attacked today, your natural reaction is to be defensive. Right. And just to go straight to sort of code red and so, you know, and vilify and demonize and so, you know, I totally get it, trust me.
But I would say, you know, we need to, I guess, be the bigger people, take a step back and try to find solutions instead of just point fingers.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:18:25.230 - 00:19:01.879
Yeah, and I talk about this a bit in the intro to this Q and A.
It seems like there was a time in the 50s and 60s where the government really did see what was happening, see that we were changing from a country of homesteaders and pure extractive uses on the land and realizing that it was done, the country was shackled and started really looking at recreational uses and how we could plan for those. And I'm not sure why we've moved so far away from that now, unless it's just a knee jerk reaction to change.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:02.200 - 00:19:09.240
But I mean, things like selling public lands to support tax cuts for the rich, I mean that stuff is just. Yeah, I mean, come on.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:09.320 - 00:19:39.130
Well, anyway, let's dive down a bit more into the, the business end of things.
Even though I love talking about public lands, but I think we were talking about the outdoor industry and kind of defining a bit of what it might be and looking at that more human use old or type of outdoor industry. How do you think this industry is different than any other business environment or industry out there?
Eoin Comerford
00:19:39.620 - 00:21:29.380
I think the first thing is that it's an industry built upon passions that people have in terms of these pursuits. And so a lot of the people in the industry actually came to the outdoor industry in order to sort of meld that.
They wanted to meld their passions with their work life. I mean, I think a lot of people actually that started out in outdoor retail start out because of the gear discounts.
I mean, it's a way for them to afford their passions, right? It's like, hey, I can't afford a 700 doll of skis, but if I can get, you know, get an EP here or a demo piece there or whatever else, and I can.
I can get outdoors. So as I've said to a few people, it's like, you know, most people don't come to the outdoor industry to get rich.
I would say, you know, some people do and some people have, but it's generally not the main driver of folks, even founders in the industry. Right.
Yes, they'd love to maybe potentially sell someday or bring in some big investors, but that's typically not why they started with their companies. Right.
So I think that that's a big driver and then within that, and I think because of that, because it's an industry based upon personal passions, there is this sort of natural community aspect to it that you don't find in other industries. Right? So it's this. It's this shared ethos that goes beyond just we sell stuff and this. We do stuff together.
Like when we get together, we're doing things where, you know, most industry. Industry get togethers will. Will. Will include a hike or going skiing or you name it. Right. So.
So that, to me makes it a lot different than just, hey, you know, I'm schlocking, electronics or whatever, right. It's just. It's just a different. Different deal.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:21:29.780 - 00:21:33.860
And you came into the outdoor. You were at moose jaw for 16 years, I believe, right?
Eoin Comerford
00:21:34.020 - 00:22:35.130
Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yeah. So actually, I started my career as a mechanical engineer, if you believe that, and did that for like a year and a half and just hated it.
Then I got into management consulting, which I loved. Loved management consulting. It was just really fun working with mainly in the automotive sector. I'm in the Detroit area.
Worked with a lot of cool companies there and then ended up spinning out, working for an. A new tech incubator from Ford Motor Company and then spun a company out of that that was in the kind of the outdoor gear and gadget space.
So that's how I got into retail. Did that for a number of years, built that up, sold it, and then joined Moose Jaw. So sort of a circuitous way to get into retail.
And quite honestly, I mean, I joined Moose Jaw because of a love of retail and E commerce. Not necessarily as an outdoorsy person. I'm relatively outdoorsy.
I like to car camp, but I'm not like a massive, you know, mountain biker or skier or what have you.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:22:35.530 - 00:22:39.610
But hey, car camping is a good place to be, right? That's what most people like to do.
Eoin Comerford
00:22:39.690 - 00:22:40.410
Absolutely.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:22:40.490 - 00:22:40.970
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:22:41.530 - 00:22:59.050
Yeah. No, no, I. I tell the story, you know, in terms of. I love camping.
I mean, it's probably when I look back on vacations with my kids and, you know, we've. We've been very fortunate to be able to go a lot of places, do a lot of things, but it's those camping holidays that are the highlights.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:22:59.360 - 00:23:09.360
Yeah.
And I remember, I think when I first met you, you ran me through Moose Jaw's kind of souped up car camping equipment that you were putting out, Right?
Eoin Comerford
00:23:09.840 - 00:23:37.620
Yeah.
And that was actually, unfortunately, shortly before we were sold to the sporting goods, and they didn't want to continue that product, but it was amazing stuff. I mean, still very, very proud of what we did there up front. You know, it's just some really great tents, furniture, you name it.
But, yeah, a lot of my. That was where I sort of melded my mechanical engineering background with Moose Jaw and car camping.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:23:37.620 - 00:23:47.780
So were you.
You know, what took you most by surprise as a former engineer and former, you know, working in the automotive industry when you first came into the outdoor space?
Eoin Comerford
00:23:48.100 - 00:26:13.150
I think I had a relatively unique experience just because it wasn't just the outdoor industry. It was Moosejaw. And Moose Jaw is or was unfortunately, just a super special place. The founder, Robert Wolf, just. He believed that it was all about.
That the outdoors should be all about fun. Okay. And that was why. Because at the time, they think back to this is sort of the mid-2000s.
At the time, outdoor marketing in many cases was still very much what I would call misery marketing, you know, man versus the mansion.
These gritty black and white photos of somebody on, you know, on the face of the Eiger, you know, and just the wind blowing, and they've got their, you know, their Gore Tex jacket on, and Moosewhere was like, you know, fuck that. You know, I mean, we do this to have fun, right? And so that was the whole vibe around the Moose Jaw brand.
And a big belief of Roberts was, hey, if you're going to market fun, project fun, you actually have to be having fun. Right. You know, to be authentic about it. And so we. Yeah, it was just a. I mean, it was a work hard, play hard scenario, but everything was just.
It was fun. We never, never took ourselves too seriously. Meetings were fun. We were just joking around, practical jokes, finger darts across the.
Across the office, you know, always trying to come up with some crazy shit, you know, for marketing.
And so, yeah, so I think I had a sort of a special experience there which melded some of the passion and community aspects of the wider outdoor industry with just this sort of insane, what we used to call love the madness aspect of Moose Jaw. And I was fortunate I came in.
So Robert had sold to private equity a couple of years before and he was kind of on his way out, but luckily stuck around for a few months to sort of shepherd me into the role. And so he and I were able to kind of codify what it meant to be Moose Jaw.
And, you know, I think if I look back on my career, one of my biggest achievements is that is taking that moose to a brand that existed in 2008 and really building and amplifying that brand so that, you know, even though Robert had moved on long since, it was still the same brand, the same vibe, you know, 15 years later.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:26:13.230 - 00:26:37.630
I love that. And, and I think as you mentioned before, I mean, it's a, it's an inclusive vibe, right?
It's, it was for the car campers, for the, you know, and as we further try to define what outdoor industry is, it seems recently that a lot more inclusiveness has replaced, as you said, the, you know, the real super aspirational, super gatekept kind of outdoors.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:38.270 - 00:28:39.870
And that was a big part of what we looked to do was to address that sort of elit that did exist within the industry. I mean, we had some of the top brands in the world that sold on moustache. We were one of the top brands for arc' Teryx, for example.
Back in the day, we had a huge equipment business, very large climbing business, actually.
So we had a lot of people doing hardcore stuff that were customers, whether it was climbers, whether it was through hikers, you name it, they were coming to Moose Jaw. But we really focused on, because of that fun aspect, really trying to break down those barriers. And we hired for it as well.
Like if you went into a Moose Jaw store, you weren't going to kind of get that vibe of, oh, you've never backpacked before. Oh, well, you know, none of that kind of bullshit. It was much more, hey, yeah, that's so cool.
You know, I, you know, I love doing whatever this thing is, climbing, hiking, whatever.
Let me share my passion with you about that activity and kind of bring you in and bring you along versus kind of maybe look down my nose at you because you didn't know what a crampon was. So I think that was a big part of it. And I mean, quite frankly, we were bringing new people to the industry.
Like, you looked at the average age of a Moose Jaw customer, it was sort of early to mid-30s. And you compare that to the average age of an REI customer or even especially retail customer was more like mid to late 40s.
So, yeah, it was significantly younger and just more inclusive for younger folks who felt like, oh, okay, yeah, these guys kind of get it. It's not, it's about going out and being with friends and it's a social experience. Not for everybody.
For some people, being outdoors is about getting away from everybody, but for a lot of people, it is about being out there with friends and family and others.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:28:40.390 - 00:28:59.590
And I think, you know, but.
And then when you're making it more inclusive, you know, my friend Mike Geraci brought up a good point where the outdoors can't be everything to everyone either, right. That starts to water it down. So where is that edge?
Where is the edge of how the outdoor, you know, industry can still define itself but still be more encompassing?
Eoin Comerford
00:28:59.590 - 00:30:29.080
I mean, I would tend to lean more, you know, more on the inclusivity side if, you know, I'd be like, there's less danger there than trying to kind of really box things in.
I think where we run into problems is, though, is where we really look to not really develop or talk about the activities that we were, you know, that the industry was built upon. Right. And I think there's a lot of that that does go on. So inclusivity for me is the inclusivity of bringing people into those activities.
Because if the activities are the core of their relationship to your brand, then you're going to have a long lived relationship with that customer.
If all it is, if it's a fashion play, ultimately it's, hey, I want to look good at the bar and I have no intent of going hiking or snowshoeing or climbing or camping or setting foot outside of these three blocks of manhatt that I live in, then that's not really, you know, that to me is when you get inauthentic and you get, when you get away from, from the core. Right. So, you know, so.
So to me there's a difference between inclusivity of, hey, we want to welcome everybody into hiking and all of these activities versus, hey, it's cool if anybody just wears our. If we develop stuff specifically for people just to walk their dog, that's a little bit of a different animal.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:30:29.080 - 00:30:42.640
But in the time, in the time even that you were at Moose Jaw, there was a big story, big shift, I think, in the outdoor consumer, right? Where people are not as hardcore maybe as they used to be.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:44.160 - 00:32:08.920
I think there was a big shift maybe in the reach of outdoor brands because the outdoor look did become trendy. I mean, you think back to the late 2000s, the classic sort of Denali jacket with a boots look.
You know, that was very prevalent on campuses back in the day. And so certainly it did become this element of a fashion piece, which is very much still part of what drives our industry today.
And it's actually now morphed a little bit more to the point where I think a lot of retailers are now just bringing in products specifically for that customer. I think that's where it gets a little bit dangerous, where it's like, okay, we're really just bringing in loungewear Vori or call it what it is.
Right. It's like, could you use that stuff to go hiking? Yeah, I guess you could. But is that what 99% of it's used for? Not really.
So, yeah, I think that's where it gets. It's a little bit dangerous. But ultimately, I don't think we want to just sort of cut all that off and say, hey, those aren't real outdoor customers.
Kind of screw them because quite frankly, the dollars they bring in support the other aspects of the industry as well. So we can't be too exclusive about the whole deal.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:09.160 - 00:32:15.520
Especially, I think, as you said, that outdoors has become a lot more trendy than it used to be.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:15.520 - 00:32:15.800
Right.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:15.800 - 00:32:22.200
It's a lot more in, especially in urban people, it's kind of part of their wardrobe, part of their activities now, Right?
Eoin Comerford
00:32:22.840 - 00:32:45.150
Yeah, the whole gorp core look, that sort of became a thing. Yeah. And again, I think there's nothing wrong with that. I don't want to sort of say those aren't worthy consumers.
It's when outdoor brands start to design specifically for that consumer, that's when I think we start to lose the script a little bit as an industry.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:45.630 - 00:33:01.480
Yeah, I mean, I think some of my favorite products, like I just got a Flylo shirt recently that is like multi use. Right. It's this amazing quick drying fabric.
But I can also just wear that out, you know, anywhere I want to go, especially in Boulder, maybe not in a bigger city, but.
Eoin Comerford
00:33:01.480 - 00:33:27.820
Yeah, actually I was just in a local store here in the Detroit area that had a great Flylo section. And yeah, I was. You know, I always thought of Flylo as more of a. Maybe more of a snow brand. But you know, some of their shirts were great.
You know, good looking fit, good looking fabric, a little bit of a Western flair to some of it. You know, it was like, oh, wow, this is like cloud veil, you know, version two here.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:33:28.140 - 00:33:34.540
I like that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What do you think is the biggest challenge right now for the outdoor industry?
Eoin Comerford
00:33:34.940 - 00:37:47.680
Ah, where, where, where to start? I mean, I think I put it down to kind of three things. So I would say one is affordability and accessibility. Okay.
Would be, would be maybe one that I would, can maybe put those two together. And then the other is inclusivity. So affordability and accessibility.
You look at a lot of the product that we now have or now sell within the industry, it is really expensive.
And if you're a young person who unfortunately for the first time in forever in our country, young people are not doing as well as their parents at the same age.
So they can't afford a house, income inequality, all these other things, but they look at a, hey, I'd really love to get a nice Gore Tex jacket to go hiking. Well, it's like $300, $500, $600 for that jacket. That is a huge amount of money. I mean, that is sort of a quasi luxury wear in a lot of ways.
And so people end up either not shopping in outdoor or outdoor stores, or they shop elsewhere for a product that kind of works, but kind of doesn't. The same thing maybe with you want to get a good backpacking tent and you're going to go lightweight and it's 3, 400, $700, whatever it is.
So I think we do have a bit of issue, especially relative to maybe some of the other elements that are out there. And you know, it's not, it's not because the outdoor industry is just, you know, massively marking up product.
It's because of the quality and the materials that we're building in. But still, it does create issues.
And that's one of the reasons why I think our industry needs to really lean into this whole used concept, not just for the whole sustainability aspect, but actually as a customer acquisition tool to bring people into the industry, especially younger folks who couldn't otherwise afford the kinds of products that we make. So that'd be the first thing. It's that affordability issue and then the inclusivity aspect.
And so I think one of the things that did surprise me when I first joined the industry and was sort of walking the halls of outdoor retailer back in the late 2010, late 2000s is just how incredibly lily white our industry was. Right.
I mean, you know, and, and, and actually very male back then too, but especially just like, like you didn't see any, you know, you know, non white faces. And then, you know, I remembered I was, I went. There was the group called the, the, the, I guess the Futurist. Outdoor Futurist group.
And so I, I gave a talk to them. This was in like 20, 2017, 2018, I think. And so these were the future leaders of the outdoor industry.
And it was at the BOA headquarters and I remember looking up, they had this really kind of cool area where you could present and looking at the audience of the future outdoor industry leaders. And it was still just amazingly white. Now there was a lot more gender diversity, which was great. So we were making progress on maybe one axis x axis.
But in terms of any kind of racial diversity, it was like not really there.
Which was actually one of the reasons why we started the Mooster Outdoor accelerator was to try to bring more people of different backgrounds into the industry. And it's the reason why I work with Teresa Baker to help found the Outdoor Inclusivity alliance or the oia. It's because we still have problems here.
We're not making the progress we need to make as an industry. Right. To move beyond that core customer and to bring more people into the outdoors.
Because I think when we do get folks outdoors, they see how helpful it can be for overall health, mental health, societal health. But we're not reaching people young enough or widely enough to bring people in.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:37:48.030 - 00:38:16.740
Yeah, and I always felt it would be great if there were a purely black owned, black focused outdoor brand.
I always felt like if they were an outdoor retailer, they would have killed it and they also would have changed a lot of societal perceptions as well. Or Latino or native. I always thought that would be great.
And it is good to see the industry changing in that way because otherwise it's doomed to failure.
Eoin Comerford
00:38:16.900 - 00:40:07.460
And I think, and you look at the participation numbers that are within the industry today, and one of the benefits of the dark cloud that was Covid was that more and more people got outdoors. Right.
And if you look at the numbers that are out there from oia, it would say that those participation levels, so the percent of people that are participating in outdoor activities remains at record highs. But the problem is the underlying issue is that that core user is going out there less and less. And in many ways that core user is an older user.
And so, you know, I think as an industry we potentially have this issue where we're aging out to a degree.
That core, you know, person who's in their 50s or 60s, who really grew up in the outdoors and really the outdoor movement that started in the 1970s, that person is aging out and they're also the people, by the way, that happen to have all the disposable income that are buying all these expensive jackets and gear, et cetera. And so it's like, okay, and also a predominantly older white customer. So we now have this much.
You look at the US population at the younger levels, much younger, much more diverse and different ethnicities, different incomes levels, et cetera. You know, how do we deal with that? How do we bring those people along?
Not just in terms of, hey, getting out for a hike once a year, twice a year, whatever it is, but really embracing them and bringing them into the industry and then hopefully equipping them with really good gear and good apparel and good products to really enjoy the outdoors so they don't have a miserable experience the first time they go camping or whatever else.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:40:08.570 - 00:40:52.540
Yeah, I've got an 18 year old and a 21 year old and it's interesting, I think you were talking about used gear too. And they spend a lot of time in thrift shops.
In fact, the first time I felt really old recently was going in a vintage thrift shop here in Boulder and I was like, man, I am the old guy in this room. But it was buzzing with young people and teenagers buying used in vintage gear. And what's interesting, I think, is that the brands still have weight.
Like a vintage Arc' Teryx jacket has just as much weight as a new Arc' Teryx jacket, maybe even more. People want that old version of these classics.
How much of that used market do you see being a viable business strategy for retailers or for brands even?
Eoin Comerford
00:40:52.860 - 00:43:23.870
I think it's especially viable for specialty, independent specialty. And I think more and more independent specialty retailers are discovering this. I think it's.
According to Goa, it was upwards of 25, 26% of their of their members actually have some form of used gear. But you know, the consignment model, it's a great way to just bring new people into the store who maybe couldn't afford that higher price gear.
But they're going to come in, they're going to buy a product and maybe they discover like I was talking to Todd Frank who owns Trailhead out of Missoula, and you know, he was telling a story of a guy who would like a regular who would come in and was always kind of bitching at him about the price of icebreaker Merino. He's like, how can you charge that much for this stuff? This is insane. And so then he Ends up buying some from the consignment thing.
Loves it, falls in love with it. He's like, oh, my God, I just want to be head to toe in Marino for the rest of my life. And so now that's all he does. He just.
But he's buying full price. He's buying full priced icebreaker merino.
But that is a way to bring somebody in right where they can go, oh, so that's why this stuff is more expensive, because it actually not only does it look good, but it lasts. Like my. We did the Top 5 apparel podcast recently on the Rock Fight for Rock Fight. On the Rock Fight. Yeah.
And we were talking about some of my personal favorite brands. So my personal favorite outerwear brand is arc' Teryx. Okay.
Because I'm cool, obviously, but also because I love the fit, I love the sleek styling, but just the quality.
Having been in the industry forever, I mean, I can't even tell you how many jackets I've been given over the years, but my go to jacket all winter here in the depths of Michigan's misery. It's an Arc' Teryx MacKay jacket, right. From, I don't know, 2012. And I'm still wearing it today. Right. I mean, and that thing still looks amazing.
Right? And so that's what you're getting. Right.
But you've got to get people in to understand, oh, that's why that jacket costs so much, because it's still amazing 12, 13 years later.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:24.030 - 00:43:39.450
Yeah, they're good about new stuff.
My daughter works at the Arcteric store here in Boulder, but she also is interested in this idea of of Goth Corp, combining goth fashion and outdoor fashion. If you want to think about something.
Eoin Comerford
00:43:39.450 - 00:43:50.890
New, she's in the right store. Because I can definitely see there's a goth aspect to all those black and navy arc' Teryx jackets that they've pumped out over the years.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:51.050 - 00:44:04.910
She pulls it off extremely well. That's true. Beyond arc' Teryx, what are some other brands that you really admire in the outdoor space?
Both for how they're manufacturing, how they're running their business, their ethics. Who's up there for you?
Eoin Comerford
00:44:04.990 - 00:46:04.500
Yeah, I mean, I think what I admire in businesses is authenticity, innovation, a commitment to sustainability, those sorts of things where they're real stalwarts, they're not just chasing the dollar. And I think, not coincidentally, most of those companies are still founder led. And so I think of like a Nemo, right. Still run by Cam.
And there's a company where, I mean, you look at an Nemo Tent. You look at a wagon top, it's like there isn't. Nobody else is doing that. Right. It isn't like every other set of tent that's out there.
You're like, oh, okay. So clearly somebody, this is just a clean sheet of paper. Like, hey, I want to build a tent that has these kind of things.
Let's just go out and build it. Right? And same with so much of their stuff, whether it's their sleeping bags, etc.
I mean, everything comes from just a place of, hey, what if we did this? And that's so interesting to me. And in a lot of ways I talk about this with our buyers at Moose Jaw.
When you're building out an assortment, you want to have differentiation. We don't have all the same stuff.
And so what you really are looking for, especially in product, is, let's say if it's a jacket, if I cover up the brand, can I still tell you who made that jacket? Same thing with a tent, right? Like if I don't know the logo and I look at that tent, can I tell if it's a.
If it's an MSR tent versus an emo versus a whatever. Right.
And so those to me are the brands that make a difference, like the big Agnes of the world, the CD MSR, another family run company here, however many like 67, 60 years ago, I mean, it's still the same family that runs that company and very much also focused on innovation and doing things the right way and not just chasing the dollar.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:46:05.300 - 00:46:34.340
That's great.
And I think it's really interesting the perspective you can bring to this as someone who ran a mid size, I guess you'd call it, retail operation, where you were seeing all the different brands, you were seeing how consumers reacted, you were figuring out what mix worked best of big established brands and new up and comers. How would a new brand catch your eye? How would you know something would do well in Moose Jaw?
Eoin Comerford
00:46:36.020 - 00:49:01.600
Well, really, they had to bring something new to the table, right? And I mean, theoretically, if it's an emerging brand, it should be. Right? Because otherwise why develop this product if it already exists?
But I think typically I'm looking for things like visual tech or visual differentiation. Differentiation as well as material tech.
I think one of the issues potentially we have within our industry is we do tend to get a little wrapped around the axle with these sort of really minor gains and very nerdy material type stuff. And if you don't help translate that for the consumer into understanding visually why it makes sense. Right. Like why do I want to pay more for this?
Or why is it different or what have you? I think we can kind of lose the script sometimes.
And like, I see that, for example, with some, some of the material technologies that the big, big brands have spent a lot of time on, it's like, well, okay, cool. It's marginally better in terms of whatever, breathability or fast dry or whatever, whatever.
But if you can't really translate that for the consumer, it's a tough sell versus coming out with, you know, articulated knees or gusseted crotches, let's say, on a pair of pants. It's like a consumer can look at that and go, oh, okay, that's different. That's just not like some stove pipe for a pants.
That I can see why that'll work better for me. Right. And so it's those aspects that I think are important. But with new brands, it's. Yeah. Why are you bringing this new?
Because in many ways, those brands are kind of like the bling in the store.
They're the stuff that is going to excite the gear nerd if it's on the gear side, or maybe it's going to bring a little bit of a different look if it's on the fashion side.
And so when people are coming into the store, they're not just seeing the same old puffy jackets or the same old shells or the same old convertible hiking pants. They're like, oh, that's different. Let me see that. Now, they may not buy that potentially.
Maybe it's not for them or the price point isn't right or whatever, but it's the jewel, right?
It's the interest that's going to bring people in to say, okay, this is a store that's really got their finger on the pulse of what's new and exciting. And I'm just going to keep coming back every, you know, couple of months just to see what's going on.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:49:01.840 - 00:49:33.420
I love that.
When I think we're getting into kind of your passion and your hotspot here really, though, which is emerging brands, new branch startups, you guys did an incredible job, I thought, with the Moose Jaw accelerator when you were doing that, bringing a whole range of diverse and new and interesting brands in. And I know now that you are consulting and helping, helping startup brands.
Tell us a bit about your work there and, and how, you know, how you see a brand that you think is going to succeed.
Eoin Comerford
00:49:33.740 - 00:51:18.220
So when I ultimately left Moose show, which was in early 24, actually, you know, there was a bit of transition Time there towards the end as we were integrating it into the Dick's Public Lands group. So I had, I don't know, three or four months to figure out what I wanted to do next.
And really I just was reflecting on what did I enjoy about my current job being CEO of Mistraw. And I kept coming back to the accelerator was probably one of the highlights. I just really enjoyed my time with founders.
And also I was at a point in my career where I was asking how can I kind of give back a little bit. Right.
I mean, the outro industry has been really good to me and it kind of came back to the same story is, you know, I can, these are people that I can really help. This is, this is me, you know, making the most of what I have to offer. Right. In a way that I think will have the biggest impact. So, yeah.
So I work with all kinds of outdoor brands.
I was looking at the lineup for Switchback and it's like 15 different brands that I know or have had some kind of, you know, relationship with over, over the last few years will be at that show. Right. And so it's, it's.
And you know, it's, it's extremely rewarding quite frankly, just to see that and to see these brands come along and, and you know, it's. I'm a consultant.
So, you know, in some cases that's actually where, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's like a retainer arrangement where I'm working with somebody or there's an equity based arrangement or in a lot of cases it's just a pro bono deal. Right. Where it's just like, hey, I think you're cool. We need more people like you in the industry. How can I help?
So, yeah, but it's just a ton of fun.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:51:18.460 - 00:51:21.660
And what does a brand need to do really, to catch your eye or catch your interest?
Eoin Comerford
00:51:22.220 - 00:52:19.620
Something different, quite frankly, something that is going to be additive to the industry. In some cases there are brands that just. Sustainability is so at the core of everything that they do.
They are like a model for the future and I want to be part of that. In other cases, they are creating products.
Product, let's say for, you know, women, mountain bikers that are really underserved, like with a, with a wild rye, you know, and a really very specific point of view. In other cases, it's like a new technology or that's going to help with outdoor accessibility like the Go Fly and nara. Right.
So it's all kinds of different Folks in different areas. And it goes beyond outdoor. I work with some folks that are in the RV water filtration space.
I work with other folks that are actually on the golf side of things. So it isn't just outdoor, but I would say it's outdoor. Active is probably 80% of the brands that I work with.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:52:19.700 - 00:52:24.900
But it's just a passion for you to see. See a good idea and want to help it thrive.
Eoin Comerford
00:52:25.460 - 00:52:41.140
Absolutely. And you know, I think one of the great things about working with founders is that almost by definition they are optimists. Okay.
Because if you weren't optimistic about the future, you wouldn't pour yourself into creating a new brand or a new thing.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:52:41.140 - 00:52:41.340
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:52:41.340 - 00:52:52.080
You'd just be like, eh, okay, I'm just going to kind of plug along and hope things don't go totally sideways. But you really have to have a vision for the future to be a founder.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:52:52.320 - 00:53:09.840
So what looking at your career, going from a mechanical engineer to Ford to Moose Jaw to now helping these brands, what has the outdoor industry, what has this space taught you along the way? About yourself and about business, about the world?
Eoin Comerford
00:53:10.560 - 00:53:42.740
Probably the biggest thing it's taught me is the importance of authenticity. Authenticity, Right. Both from a personal perspective as well as a company perspective and a brand perspective.
And how that's sort of the core of all relationships, I guess I would say. And the importance of relationships, obviously, is a big part of what I've learned too.
But that authenticity, I would say people that know me would say, yeah, with Owen, you kind of. Yeah. What you see is what you get.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:53:42.740 - 00:53:43.100
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:53:43.260 - 00:55:04.200
There isn't a lot of artifice. You kind of know where you stand. With Owen, it's kind of no bullshit.
And so I don't know that necessarily my personality changed dramatically over the time I was in the industry or if it was just an alignment of somebody who kind of was who they were in an industry that maybe supported that, I think it's probably. I know it's helped me, you know, to be less of an asshole. Right. I mean, that's certainly.
I'm not saying I was an asshole before the industry, but you know, I think the industry, outdoor industry, more so than other industries, really does appreciate and reward people for not being an asshole. Right.
And so that's one of the things that I've kind of, as I get into Moosejohn and into the industry, definitely took on this whole sort of not pure no asshole policy. It's like, you know what? Life is too short to deal with assholes.
And if you are one, then you're not going to be part of this company and we're not going to buy your shit and yeah, just go away. So I think that's probably part of it too. I think also becoming a parent helped with that as well. Giving your perspective.
So it all happened kind of around the same time.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:55:04.600 - 00:55:09.840
I think we found the title for this episode, don't Be an Asshole. The no Asshole Policy.
Eoin Comerford
00:55:09.840 - 00:55:10.240
That's right.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:55:10.240 - 00:55:36.420
There we go. Colin, take that down. So, and people who want to hear more of your insight obviously can do so on the rock fight.
You're on every Monday, which is great. We're cross pollinating a little bit here, which is always good for TV shows and podcasts and then for people who would want to work with you.
Are you taking people on? How would someone contact you if they're like, hey, I've got a great idea and I want Owen to help me.
Eoin Comerford
00:55:37.060 - 00:55:59.810
Probably the best way is through LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn. E o I N is how we spell Owen in Ireland, where I grew up. I was 18 when I moved over here. But yeah.
So E O I n Comerford on LinkedIn. Look me up, reach out to connect. I'm always happy to connect with folks in the industry and let me know what you have going on.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:56:00.370 - 00:56:21.280
Love it. And it's been so good to have you on to cross pollinate, as I said, and get this insight from you. But we're running out of time now, now.
So I will bring you to the final question of every open container. And we've talked a lot about optimism and it rolls right into that. And the question is, what gives you hope?
Eoin Comerford
00:56:21.440 - 00:57:44.490
I think what gives me hope is the founders that I work with and the passion that they have for this industry and the new blood that they're bringing into our industry. And I think almost to a person, they have a level of inclusivity and a perspective that I think is needed and valued within the industry.
It's part of what I look for in the founders that I work with.
So maybe there's somewhat of a self selection bias there, but I do, I see a lot of hope there with these new companies that are going to really help to bring the industry to a new level in terms of accessibility, but also inclusivity and sustainability in many ways too. So I think that's a big part of it. The other one to not be too self serving, but is the rock fight. I like what we have going on.
It's not just about having a podcast and shilling some of the latest outdoor apparel or whatever. But there is a bit of a community aspect that's growing with that that I think is crossing different lines.
So we've got people who are from brands, who are from retailers who are just, just who want to know about the business, get into the business. And I think that's something that's been missing for a while and I like seeing that and being part of that, quite frankly.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:57:44.650 - 00:57:50.490
Great words to end on. Thanks so much for being on Open Container and people can hear you on the Rock Fight.
Eoin Comerford
00:57:50.490 - 00:57:51.530
Thanks for having me on.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:57:52.650 - 00:58:21.140
Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight llc.
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast Apple you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com to learn more about Owen Comerford, head to his LinkedIn page and listen to him every Monday on the Rock Fight. Our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some. Thanks for listening.
