The Outdoors Is Not Separate From Us
- colin7931
- 2 days ago
- 40 min read
Today we open the container with Gear Abby herself, outdoor journalist and author, Shawnté Salabert.
Doug begins the episode looking at the interconnectedness of humanity and nature noting that the outdoors is not a separate entity but an integral part of our existence.
Doug is then joined by writer, podcaster, and educator Shawnté Salabert to talk about what it really means to “be outdoors”? From feral kid neighborhood adventures to life changing miles on the PCT, Shawnté brings heart, humor, and a sharp perspective on:
Hiking as meditation (and why two nights outside changes everything)
The culture of sharing on long trails
Rethinking outdoor history through Indigenous names and stewardship
Finding wildness in LA, New York, and beyond
Launching her new podcast Gear Abby right here on the Rock Fight Podcast network!
Thanks for listening! Open Container is a production of Rock Fight, LLC. Let's Get Some!
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Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:01.120 - 00:00:03.920
The outdoors is not separate from us.
Shawnté Salabert
00:00:04.560 - 00:00:09.120
You become part of nature, which we all are. We just think we're separate, and I.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:09.120 - 00:00:16.239
Think we realize that more and more as we fall off a cliff into lives controlled by phones, AI and social media.
Shawnté Salabert
00:00:16.400 - 00:00:21.920
We could just sit here in the dirt together for a couple hours and have a strangely deep connection.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:22.480 - 00:00:28.560
The point is, how you experience the outdoors does not have to be determined by anyone else but you.
Shawnté Salabert
00:00:28.800 - 00:00:31.520
You don't go into these places and emerge unchange.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:33.100 - 00:09:01.420
Hey everyone, I want to thank you for listening to Open Container and ask that you please subscribe to the show by clicking Follow on the podcast app you're using right now. Following the podcast is the best way to ensure that we will continue to crack open the container every single week.
Thanks and let's get back to the show. Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzpahn. I'm a journalist, writer and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, publish magazines, and my gear garage has more gravitational pull than a black hole.
On this podcast we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Let's get some when we started this podcast, we had a definite plan.
We wanted to show that the outdoors isn't just a niche, it's part of the fabric of our day to day lives as Americans.
I think that's true whether you're someone who's turned your back on the mad rush of it all, living out of your van, biking to Moab, skiing Jackson, or whether you live in New York City and occasionally slip away to ride your bike along the Hudson River Greenway. This world is always asking, always has us scrolling, but it rarely gives us much in return. The outdoors does.
My first outdoor memories began on a dead end street, Salem Lane in the little town of Little Silver, New Jersey, not far from a brackish creek. When I was young, there were still horses in a pasture at the end of the next street.
In my yard, an only child at the time, five or six years old, I'd play under the holly trees. I'd go with the Bowies, our neighbors, into the woods behind their house.
We'd play games and crawl through tunnels of leaves under the towering maples and oaks, remnants of the forests the first Europeans coveted when they landed here and soon cut down. There was something so grounding, so basic about playing in those woods. I remember once finding a dead bird.
I was both scared and fascinated by what lay outside the safety of the house. Most of all, I remember Billy Bowie. He was a few years older than me, the coolest kid alive in my mind.
He had a banana board skateboard and wore a Davy Crockett hat.
He took me into his world, showed me different bark on trees, hidden paths only he knew, and one place in particular that he called the honeysuckle factory. It was legendary. So much so that I didn't believe it existed until he brought me there. I can still see it now, though. It feels like some dreamscape.
A place where we could both climb into a tree and look down where honeysuckle vines had overtaken everything. We'd pull the pistols through the flowers, taste the sweetness, and sit there in the quiet joy of summer afternoons.
Later, the outdoors meant the beach. I'd go with my dad. We'd spincast for stripers and bluefish off the jetties of Sandy Hook.
From these long, quiet beaches, you could see the towers of New York City in the distance across the bay. When I was in college and after in Boston, bartending, unsure where life was going, I found salvation in skiing Franconia Notch, Loon Mountain.
My friend Mark, who lived in Jackson Hole, introduced me to telemark skiing, this more advanced, fluid way of moving through the mountains. I was hooked, not just on skiing, but on finding a life in the mountains. An art of motion in the outdoors.
But again, the outdoors doesn't have to be dangerous or difficult. Though let's be honest, there's always a pull to that part of it, too. The outdoors is open to everyone, and I don't say that to dilute the concept.
I know some worry if the outdoors is everything, then maybe it's nothing. But of course, it's what you make of it. A personal relationship, a unique way to interact with a natural world.
That's why we go to find ourselves often alone, where we can just be without pressure, without performance. We don't even have to go with family or friends or loved ones. We can just be another creature within the boundless beauty of existence.
Or maybe we do go with others to share in that communion. The discovery of a new flower's name, a faster lap on the trail. A summit we always dreamed about from some forgotten back road.
This basic way of being resonates with people across the US and across the globe. Especially now, on a smaller, rapidly shrinking Earth. We're beginning to understand it's not just about saving the planet.
It's about becoming a better part of the ecosystem. Understanding what it means to be alive in this place.
You can do whatever you want you can mountain bike rabbit Valley, suck your camelback dry, stop to fix a pinch flat. You can skate, ski, learn the subtle intricacies of movement and breath, support local clubs that keep trails open.
Or head to a resort and carve silent loops through pine trees, cold air burning in your lungs. You can bird watch in New York City, go to Central Park. Maybe you'll see a black crowned night heron scoop up and eat a rat.
Maybe you'll just watch the life that buzzes between garbage and gutters beneath the canyons of concrete and glass. You can go forest bathing.
The Japanese call it shinrin yoku, just walking among the trees, letting go of thought, inhaling the breath of a forest built on chlorophyll and rooted in soil rich with fungi and rhizomes and mystery. You can be a part of that.
You can climb wilderness peaks, load your pack with everything you need to survive a few days, press your hands against rock face, deadly exposure and stand in the sky. You can take your paddle board to the Pacific off San Diego, ride your E bike through community trails, run and time yourself on Strava.
Hike without a plan. Or plan a thru hike, maybe the CDT from Mexico to Canada along the spine of the Rockies. You can throw a Frisbee. You can geocache.
You can paddle the Potomac and feel the tug of white water so close to the Capitol. You can bring your children to a quiet lake, let them dip small feet in the water, let them feel the miracle of simply being alive.
You can fly, fish on the fable rivers of Montana's mad drift, boat downstream, casting the fat browns tucked under grassy banks.
You can hunt elk in the mountains, honoring a tradition passed through your family or rediscovering something ancient, the communion between human and animal. You can find shapes in clouds. You can simply breathe.
The point is, how you experience the outdoors does not have to be determined by anyone else but you. That's the beauty. That's the freedom. That's why we go. My guest today has pioneered her own way in the outdoors.
Chante Salibair is a Los Angeles based writer and author of Hiking the Pacific Crest Trail, Southern California. Her work appears in backpacker, Outside Alpinist, Adventure Journal, REI Co Op Journal and Los Angeles Magazine.
She is also co host of the Rock Fight Podcast and the host for a new show about to appear on our network, Gear Abby.
She explores themes of adventure, environmental stewardship, place based culture and the human connection to wild landscapes, blending rich storytelling with field earned insight. So let's open the container with Shantae Salibert.
I am extremely excited to pop open the container with Chante Salibert, queen of the rock fight, reigning champion of our polls there. Our own gear, Abby, and an incredible force in her own right in both the music world and also the outdoor world. Shantae, pop it open.
Shawnté Salabert
00:09:02.140 - 00:09:15.920
Wow. Thanks, Doug. What an intro. I mean, I'm gonna throw it back to you and say I am deeply honored to be here on your pod. I love it.
I've told Colin many times that listening to your opens is very therapeutic for me.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:16.160 - 00:09:24.880
I believe the open captures your spirit of redefining and having a very open idea of what the outdoors is.
Shawnté Salabert
00:09:25.200 - 00:09:59.440
Yeah, that's really important to me. I mean, you know, I have been, as far as my outdoor industry connections, you know, I've been an outdoor author and journalist for.
Gosh, I don't even remember how long it's been now. I don't know, 15 years, maybe 14. My road to the outdoors was not probably the same as a lot of other people.
I grew up in the inner city in Milwaukee, Boys and Girls Club across the street. So it wasn't something that was a huge part of my life in the traditional sense.
But I was always outside, you know, So I appreciate you thinking about me in that sort of outside the box sense.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:59.600 - 00:10:11.630
You're a rock star, right? I think we all like to think of ourselves or in some way, in this weird way we like to frame our own lives and paths of our lives as rock stars.
I think you've done that quite well in what you've done.
Shawnté Salabert
00:10:11.710 - 00:10:29.630
Yeah, I've. I've lived a pretty unusual life thus far, and I. I don't think that will change anytime soon, and I'm pretty grateful for it.
So, yeah, it's pretty wild to straddle the music world and the outdoor world, and it. It feels a bit like a pinch me dream come true. So I always joke that I lead a double life.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:10:30.510 - 00:10:48.870
Well, one of the things I think is a big focus of your life, no matter what, is through hiking and the John Muir Trail, the New Mopo Trail. Why don't you just tell us what is the real magic of a long walk, of a through hike, of a multiple day, really committed hike?
Shawnté Salabert
00:10:48.950 - 00:13:46.530
I love the action of getting out there. For me, the long hike, long walk is really about being present. So I have long thought of hiking as a sort of walking, meditation.
You know, day hikes are wonderful, and I. I'm out just about every day walking, hiking, trail, running here. I live in Pasadena, Southern California, but there's Something about going out for not just one night. One night is wonderful.
I find at least two nights gives you that chance to be sandwiched in the midst of no cell phone service, perhaps no WI fi, no technology other than whatever you decide to carry with you. And you become real present. So when you talk about taking a long hike, a long walk, that's magnified, it's amplified.
And so for me, it's this chance to go really deep with myself. It's a chance to disconnect from all the noise. You know, I live in LA.
I spent a few months on the PCT back in 2015 for the first time and that was in service of a guidebook that I wrote. And that experience was. It was jarring to come back to LA after being out there and have your life whittled down to a very simple format.
You know, you're.
You wake up, eat a little something, take down your camp, start walking, stop wherever you think you feel like you want to stop for breaks, for lunch, whatever, find camp, reverse course and your life out there becomes very streamlined. You become attuned to the rhythms of nature. You become part of nature, which we all are. We just think we're separate.
So for me, these long walks are an opportunity to get closest to myself without all of the distractions of everyday life.
There's no, you know, like the billboards, the, the metaphoric billboards that are always sort of blaring at us, whether that's our inbox, notifications, text messages, things like that. Capitalism always telling us we've got more things to buy and to work hard for work for work sake, as we like to do in America.
Out there, I can be a little wildland creature. I can be little feral marmot lovin's lady animal. I feel almost like my little kid self when I go on a long trail.
And I feel like you see that a lot when you get together with other thru hikers. There is this sort of sense, and it's not a sense of being juvenile, although that absolutely exists in a lot of places.
It's a sense of that freedom you had when you were a kid for a lot of us, not everybody, but that freedom, you had to sort of be dirty and not worry about it. To wear the same clothes day after day to investigate bugs and plants and flowers and trees that interest you.
To sit on a rock if you want to sit on a rock.
So it really takes me back to my sort of elemental self and it brings me, I come back into the world, calmer version of Myself maybe more introspective. I also just want to get rid of everything in my house when I get home. So there's so much I love about it. And obviously I just love being in nature.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:46.530 - 00:14:11.720
So I love that idea of childishness too because I mean, when we think about it, all of the. Everything we're doing in our normal day to day adult life is really pretty prescribed. Right. Our ability to do what we want is taken away.
And when you're out in the wild, that is removed and you can really live how you want to live, which is the way a child lives in the best of ways. Right, right.
Shawnté Salabert
00:14:11.720 - 00:14:56.780
Yeah, it does. And I. And again, I'll say not everybody has had that opportunity. Not everybody had childhoods where they had moments like that even.
But I do think there's a sense that when you're a kid, you don't know about a lot of these frameworks that are already set up for us in the world.
We live within all of these paradigms, all these systems that have been created long before we existed, that continue developing and getting larger and more cumbersome. And as a child, you don't know about this stuff, you don't really feel the full weight of it until you get a little older.
And so, yeah, it's that sense of freedom from childhood that I think about out there is because you can go out on a weekend trip and completely forget about my inbox, which is a absolute blessing. It's why I will always take people hiking with me if they want to go.
I'm like, if you get a chance to just have one little iota of this, I want it for you.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:14:57.020 - 00:15:10.860
These simple tasks take on a sort of joy, like having to wash your jet boil or something like that. It's. There's a Zen joy to just having to be responsible for those little details. Right.
Shawnté Salabert
00:15:11.180 - 00:15:45.960
I find a joy in those tasks. I love setting up camp, taking down camp, boiling water, filtering water. It's silly because it's kind of repetitive in a way.
You just become, becomes part of your day. But it is, it's simple, it's easy. I need clean water. This is what I could do to get it. I've got to go to the bathroom.
This is how I'm going to go, you know? Yeah, it's nice.
And you come home and suddenly you've got a lot of things online you've got to manage, you've got a household you've got to manage, bills and requirements and this, that and the other thing, and you're being advertised to the second you get back in your car, really, in a lot of ways.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:15:49.560 - 00:16:05.850
One thing I love about it too, is there's no money in involved in during the day, right. I mean, of course you had to spend money to buy gear to get there.
You have to have a certain level of privilege just to be able to take off for a few days on the trail. Right. But there is something wonderful. Like I always say, I'd love a day when I don't spend money and I don't drive my car.
Shawnté Salabert
00:16:06.010 - 00:18:36.710
Oh, my gosh, it's the best. It's a lot. It's one of the reasons I started walking a lot more in my neighborhood to run errands.
Just that idea of not getting in the car and just moving on my feet at human speed, at human scale. Moving in my own neighborhood is very similar for me. I can have very meditative experiences just walking around Pasadena.
But yeah, I love that aspect of it. But I also love when you get into very specifically, sort of the.
Through hiking community and even just you could say the backpacking community, but in specific areas. So along a trail like the jmt New Pollo Numipoyo is a Paiute phrase that means kind of the people's path or the people's road.
But when you're out on a trail like that that has kind of this cachet about it, people know it, they look. It's a bucket list sort of place. There's also a culture that develops around these trails that's really interesting.
And so you have a culture of sharing information, but also snacks, food, gear. I've camped when I was out on the trail this summer, the night before my birthday, I was.
I was out hiking alone for the whole trip, but I met people here and there along the way. And I camped with these two folks the night before my birthday, and we made small talk as I set up my tent.
But then we suddenly started having deeper conversations. Turns out they both work in the climate world.
One of them is a climate lawyer who had to go to the Hague after their trip to hear the International Court of Justice ruling on whether countries were responsible for their contributions to climate change. Pretty incredible stuff. But so, you know, we ended up getting into this deeper, more philosophical discussion.
And then soon enough, the three of us are sitting there, they're brewing me tea out of their stash. I'm sharing, like, freeze dried cheese that I had with me. We're talking about Cheetos. Very important stuff.
So there's more of a sharing economy, if you want to Put it that way. That can happen when you're backpacking or on a long trail where there's a culture built around inherent trust.
And again, not everybody's going to feel that when they step foot on a trail, or at least maybe not in the beginning for various reasons. But there is a lot of that to be found out there if you're open to it and if you want to participate in going outside of yourself.
So some people really want to go on a long hike and don't talk to me, leave me alone. I've encountered those people very, kind of shut off, very insular. And that's okay. They're having their own experience out there.
But, yeah, I love those opportunities to. Yeah, we don't need to spend money and we don't need to do all these other things. We don't need to even look a certain way.
We could just sit here in the dirt together for a couple hours and have a strangely deep connection.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:18:36.950 - 00:18:58.710
And that connects to something you said earlier, and I think it connects your own personal story, too. I'm curious about this. Not every child gets to have that experience, right. Of connecting to the outdoors in some way, which is sad to think about.
And you said you grew up single mom, kind of rough neighborhood. How did you first get your first outdoor experience? Where did it catch for you?
Shawnté Salabert
00:18:59.030 - 00:20:15.350
Well, it's interesting because I think when we talk about the outdoors, kind of capital o outdoors, you hear a lot of people talking about backpacking, like we're doing right now, hiking, cycling, like mountain biking, trail running, skiing, you know, paddle sports. What doesn't get talked about is that for a lot of us, our initial outdoor experiences were in our neighborhoods growing up.
So in, you know, 80s, latchkey kid. And I was running around with my friends, playing in the alley, because that's what we had right there.
Playing in our backyards, going to the Boys and Girls Club across the street, walking to some of the neighborhood parks. I grew up in Milwaukee, which has an incredible park system.
And so for me, those original outdoor quote, maybe small O to some people experiences, those were my outdoor experiences. Having birthday parties in the park, going to people's quintaneras, like in parks.
A lot of stuff happened in the city parks or in our backyards, but we were outside all day. That's what we did back then. We didn't have, you know, we maybe had Atari or something, but we didn't really have screens to hold our attention.
You know, I could have easily sat, like every night I would sit inside with a book instead of watching tv, because that was the kind of kid I was and kind of the kind of adult I remain today. But, yeah, it was a different time, too. So that idea of just being.
Being a feral little critter running around my neighborhood, that was outside, too.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:15.590 - 00:20:20.070
I mean, it was kind of linked too, right? Like, you could find the micro.in adventure on your Atari.
Shawnté Salabert
00:20:20.070 - 00:20:20.470
Yeah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:20.470 - 00:20:30.390
But then outside, then when you were outside, when the parents kicked you out of the house. Right, right. You had to make that up. You had to go find the microdot in the local kind of weird woods, Right?
Shawnté Salabert
00:20:30.550 - 00:22:10.450
Totally. I mean, I think about who's it. Alistair Humphreys does that. He talks about sort of micro adventures and things like that all the time.
And that idea of finding that wood where you are. And so as a kid, without even knowing it, we were all doing that.
But as far as connecting on a deeper level to maybe a more traditional view of the outdoors, for me, that was when I. Through the Boys and Girls Club. First of all, I started going to the club when I was five.
You were supposed to be six, so breaking the rules also, it was just called the Boys Club back then still. And I was not a boy, so they still let me in. And I'm really grateful.
But they had a summer camp about 30 minutes outside of Milwaukee, Camp Wickham Mason.
And it was a revelation to go out there, because just as we were talking about backpacking and that idea of being away from the noise and all of these things coming at you all the time, camp was the first experience of that for me. You know, you go out to this place where it was a pretty big property.
I'm not sure how large, but it was large enough that as a kid, I felt like it was endless. There was no boundary. You know, once you went through the front gates, you were in this magical realm of pine trees and open fields. Fields.
And there was a wetland with a boardwalk through it, a lake that we could go canoeing on. And it was a really special place for me.
And I came to have a deep connection to the smell of pine trees, to the feel of wading through a wetland and, you know, the waders and looking at all the little critters that lived in the mud, being out on that lake at all hours. And so that, I think, was probably what really solidified for me, those feelings I even had as a younger kid being outside.
It was like, oh, there's this whole other version of outside. What is this about? And how can I get more.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:22:14.370 - 00:22:35.570
So professionally, You've written a guidebook to the pct. And you're also engaged now on in work on a book on the John Muir Trail, also called the New Mopo Trail.
And why don't you tell us a bit about your connection both to the PCT as well as the John Muir Trail. Why is this place so important to you? And why have you dedicated yourself to it?
Shawnté Salabert
00:22:36.090 - 00:23:01.010
Let's go back to when I was a little kid in Milwaukee, running around in the alleys. I was always a writer. I've always written. I used to make magazines and stories for my mom. For some reason, they were all like murder mysteries.
I read a lot of Nancy Drew as a kid. I always wanted to be a writer, but I will. I. I convinced myself as I get older that it wasn't a viable career. As I say this to a journalist.
That's correct, yes. Anybody listening?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:23:01.010 - 00:23:02.170
Dumbass career. Yeah.
Shawnté Salabert
00:23:03.030 - 00:23:26.710
Terrible. Yeah. And it's. And I'm saying this as somebody who did spend.
Ended up spending five years totally freelance writing and eking out a living and living out my wildest writer dreams. But part of that was my friend Brooke And I found a 19 or she found a 1947 Girl Scout handbook.
And we decided to spend a year trying to earn all the badges as we started a blog. Yeah, it's a wild idea.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:23:26.870 - 00:23:27.430
On your own.
Shawnté Salabert
00:23:27.430 - 00:23:28.030
On our own.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:23:28.030 - 00:23:28.350
Love it.
Shawnté Salabert
00:23:28.350 - 00:26:53.100
There are a hundred badges in this book.
So we weren't going to do it, but we called it Year of the Scout and we started a blog mostly to keep ourselves, like to document it for ourselves and without my knowledge. My friend Casey, he's an amazing writer. He does TV writing and he's written several books and he runs a website called Modern Hiker.
He had asked me to start writing for if I wanted to start writing for him, just for fun, which I really enjoyed. I used to actually be a music journalist. I wrote for an alt weekly on the east coast, the Charleston City Paper.
And I've written for other magazines in the past, you know, but I'd kind of given up music writing when I moved out to la. So Brooke and I are doing this project trying to earn our badges. It was an absolute riot.
Wrote this blog, Kasey, without telling me, passed it to Mountaineers Books.
They saw it, they reached out to me and said, hey, we are launching a guidebook series on the Pacific Crest Trail and we're looking for somebody to write about Southern California. The trail between the border and Tuolumne Meadows in Yosemite. 942.5 miles, give or take. And they're like, do you want to send us a proposal?
I was like, what? How does. How does a potential book deal just fall into your lap? So I decided to roll with it. I was. I had hiked bits and pieces of the pct.
I'd always dreamed of hiking it, but I was too afraid to take time out of my day job. Growing up maybe a little financially insecure. I'll say. I've always valued the idea of being able to take care of myself.
I was worried, like, oh, I don't think I could do that because what if I can't, you know, make enough money to pay my bill and I just need to stay at this job and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, live the American dream of work, work, work. But yeah, so they. I sent them a proposal, they liked it.
And so suddenly I was on the hook for writing a whole book covering about a thousand miles trail. So it changed my life. But it's funny because my relationship with the PCT was kind of piecemeal.
So it was like, oh, I've hiked this section, I've hiked that. I really wanted to hike it, but I can't, and now, oh, well, I kind of have to hike it or at least hike that first thousand miles.
I started that summer of 2015 and it changed my life. It was the first time I'd backpacked solo. It was the first time I'd, you know, encountered a lot of things.
I ran into a mountain lion on the trail, had some bear encounters, got stuck in a snowstorm, you know, all sorts of stuff. But the end result was that it really deepened my love for backpacking.
It deepened my love for what you get to do when you set out on foot to see the place you live. From sort of over a thousand miles, almost from the desert to snowy peaks in the Sierra, is a wild experience.
And then driving home was an even wilder experience. Thinking how long it took to hike all that. No matter how many times I go out there, it still reveals new aspects to me every single time.
And it reveals new aspects of myself every single time I'm out there. You don't go into these places and emerge unchanged.
Whether you get this injection of joy or you feel a new confidence or empowerment from it, or you have a spiritual connection out there. There's so many things that happen on long trails and the Sierra. I mean, the.
So the JMT new muyo coincides with the PCT for about 200 miles, maybe a little less, actually, but it's. They're the same trail. So for me, deciding to write a book, which I have, we haven't announced yet. So this is kind of like a little soft launch.
A little soft launch on open container.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:26:53.100 - 00:26:54.740
Love it. Flirting at the drive.
Shawnté Salabert
00:26:54.980 - 00:27:58.520
That's right. But yeah, deciding to do that. My publisher had asked me a few times, we want you to write another book.
I was like, I'm never writing a guidebook again.
When they approached me about possibly doing what about this trail, I said, oh, nope, I don't want to write a guidebook, but I want to write a different kind of book. And they said, all right, what do you got?
I sent a 16 page proposal because I'm an overachiever, but I also really wanted to make sure they understood my vision, which was to talk about this trail that coincides with this other trail I love in this place that I love, where I've had groundbreaking personal experiences and deep, you know, growth. But talk about it at a human level.
What are the different ways that people connect with place and using this trail as a way to explore that and not talk about a trail as a thing to conquer, as something to check off a list, but something deeper.
Talking about the emotions of being out there, talking about our connection to the land and how we can be in good relation with it, you know, things like that. So it's not going to be a very traditional guidebook in that sense. And I'm very excited about that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:28:02.120 - 00:28:07.000
And the John Muir Trail itself, you know, what is it, where does it go? How long is it?
Shawnté Salabert
00:28:07.220 - 00:30:16.890
The trail itself? Now here's the thing. I'm going to throw you all for a loop because the JMT is a very popular trail like bucket list for people around the world.
Every year you got people coming from all over the place and a mere tiny fraction ever get permits.
So traditionally people think of it as running, give or take, about 211 miles between Yosemite Valley, Happy Isles and the summit of Mount Whitney to Maguya. I want to say it's the Shoshone name. The reality is this trail is not governed by any one entity.
Like the PCTA is the Pacific Crest Trail Association. So they govern the PCT and I'm using govern very loosely.
So they acquire funding, they do trail maintenance, they protect parcels of land that protect sort of the trail routing.
There is a JMT conservancy that does trail work and they do scientific studies and they do remediation on areas that have been, you know, over camped and things like that. But the JMT itself is a concept. There's a lot of argument about kind of who came up with it. Theodore Solomons is widely considered sort of the.
The first person to have an idea of connecting a trail along the Sierra Crest. But there are a ton of people who came after him. And while he was even exploring his options, that helped piece together what would become the trail.
And ultimately it was actually the Sierra Club who gathered the funding. They've got federal funding, they got private funding from members and started really working on the construction along with federal partners.
And this was over a hundred years ago that this all started being conceived. The JMT is technically a trail that goes from Happy Isles to Mount Whitney, but it's run different courses in that time.
There's old portions of the trail you can still travel if you're decent at navigation that then got rerouted for different reasons. The trail is what you want it to be like. You can follow this routing and sure you can.
You can follow what a guidebook says, go from point A to point B. But your experience isn't going to be mine out there.
Like, even though you and I are pretty similar, Doug, I think you would have a different experience and you may choose a different side quest here and there than I would. And you would camp in different places and see different sunrises and sunsets. And the experience is not universal out there at all.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:30:17.130 - 00:30:25.770
I love that. And isn't the trails often blocked? Right? It's often. It's up in the high alpine, so it's often snow covered. Does it melt out some years?
Is that correct? Right, Yeah.
Shawnté Salabert
00:30:25.770 - 00:31:22.530
I mean, this summer I started hiking in late June because we had a bit of an average snowfall year. So there was still some. Some snow on the trail, but not a ton. I was out there in August 2023 after a record snow year. We had.
I had crampons and an ice ax and spikes with me in August, which is very rare for travel in the high Sierra then. But yeah, it's covered in snow through much of the year. People have skied it.
There's some guys, Trauma and Pepper are their trail names, who traversed it. Traversed the whole PCT in the winter some years ago during the drought. And it changes every year. In 2023 we had crazy avalanches after that.
You know, with that high snow year, we had bridges broken and twisted and turned this year going through.
And even in last year, you see areas of the trail that just got hammered by these avalanches and the trees are all bent off in the middle and broken like pickup sticks. And it was an obstacle. It was like a tough Mud or obstacle course or something out there. It was a little intense.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:31:26.580 - 00:31:45.180
And I think there's really something important about this trail, too. Obviously, it's.
It's named after John Muir, famous conservationist, someone without whom we probably wouldn't have a lot of the public lands we have now. But also, you know, there's an alternative name for it that I really like, which is the new Mupuyo Trail. As you said before, it's the people's path.
What a beautiful name for a trail.
Shawnté Salabert
00:31:45.180 - 00:31:45.780
Oh, yeah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:31:45.780 - 00:31:50.180
Do you think we should just call it the Nuumu Pollohu Trail? Wouldn't that make more sense?
Shawnté Salabert
00:31:50.660 - 00:34:01.080
Oh, my gosh, I would love that. I think it's a beautiful name to kind of share, like, my thinking behind this.
So there's a lake along the trail just before you get going southbound, you get to a place called Silver Pass.
And it used to have a name that was a derogatory name for Native women, and that was changed under Interior Secretary Deb Haaland, who did a lot of work in changing kind of, like, really inappropriate place names. And so now the name of that lake is Nuumuhu Hoopi, which basically means, like, Paiute woman. And it's an. It's an honor now and not a slurpee.
And so I think about when you go to the name the John Muir Trail, you know, it was named by the Sierra Club folks who funded the construction to sort of tie together what was, in part, trails that had already been, you know, walked in by native people who have been going over these mountains forever. So part of the trail was using existing routes that indigenous people have used in these mountains for a long time.
And then part of the trail was absolutely constructed. You had to blast the through rock. They had to do a lot of route finding to figure out the right place.
So they decided to name this trail after John Muir, who never walked the trail itself, which is a big misconception people have, although obviously he was all over the Sierra. And so they did it to sort of honor him and honor his legacy. There's been a lot of debate.
The Sierra Club actually led a lot of conversations in partnership with Jolie and some of the other folks with indigenous women hike, talking about, hey, can we petition or can we support these women in their quest to sort of get the trail renamed? And I was all for it. I said, you know, the thing is, mirror's got a million things named after him in this country. Indigenous women, not so much.
Indigenous people, not so much, which is pretty messed up. When you think about it. So I think it's a beautiful name.
Just like I think Namuhu Hoopi is a beautiful name, Just like I think Denali is a beautiful name. And I'm glad that despite the current administration's name bullshit endeavors, that most people now do think of it as denali instead of McKinley.
Yeah, I think it would be incredible even if they wanted to keep Jameer Trail, Jamir Trail, Nuumupoyo, if we made that, like, the name. Okay. I would take that as a concession.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:34:02.360 - 00:34:39.420
Well, let's think, first of all, Denali, the people who can actually climb it, the people who can actually spend time on it, know it, live it, love on it, they all want to call it Denali, not the people who have absolutely no connection to it. I mean, I love this idea. For me, I always want to know what the native name was of a peak or a lake or a place.
You know, it's so horrible that these things have been erased. The name that something has had for generations to people who are truly linked to it.
So I love this idea, and I think we should do more of it, really, instead of these names that, to be honest, were just dumbass names tacked onto things by people who've never been there or seen them.
Shawnté Salabert
00:34:39.420 - 00:35:38.390
You know, dude, it's either that or in the Sierra in particular, a lot of play.
As I was doing research for this book I'm writing right now, like, I started becoming really infuriated because there's these big examples like New Moon, Pollo and things like that.
But there's all of these other examples of basically these guys who were scouting this trail or scouting other parts of the Sierra just started naming peaks after these dudes that they either knew who were in their scouting party or that they admired. So you've got stuff named after, like, Joseph Laconte, who is a eugenicist. Stuff like that is bad.
And so, yeah, maybe not every peak had a name before, but, you know, a lot of these places did, or they were referenced in some way by the people who were living in the Owens Valley who were looking up at these peaks. Certainly they had, you know, names, and some of them are have come to light, like Whitney being Tumaguya.
And it's wild to me just to think that some guys just went through and were like, yep, we're gonna name that one, you know, after my buddy, and this one's after my buddy and this. And they. It was just a few guys that named a lot of places in the S era.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:35:41.830 - 00:36:23.040
I think it's the same thing with land acknowledgments, too. I mean, we want to rename these places. Well, at the same time, we want to actually do something for the.
The communities, you know, whose language we're using, whose places we've stolen. And I think that's a great thing.
You know, if I want to rename a place, I should be supporting Indigenous Women hike as well as you should be supporting, you know, efforts to help Native communities, you know, maybe even have land back. And, you know, there's a lot to think about.
So hopefully thinking about the names of these places also makes us think about the history behind it and how we can help the people who've been displaced who were forgetting instead of just using their names.
Shawnté Salabert
00:36:23.520 - 00:37:05.880
Yeah, I mean, it's wild to me that in 2025, we still don't have. Every tribe in this country should have representation in the government. We should have.
And I'm talking at all levels of government, not just federal. Like, why aren't tribes part of the conversations? Like, we finally saw it with Bears Ears and Grand Staircase and some of the places in Utah.
But why isn't this more widespread? Why aren't Parks partnering with the tribes whose land we're stewards? Like, I don't usually talk about land and ownership, so I don't.
Wouldn't say that own these lands, but I'd say the original stewards of these places, the people who were deeply and are deeply still connected to these places, should be involved in the decision making. Like, it's so stupid to me that it's not that way.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:37:06.280 - 00:37:45.550
Yeah.
I think Bears Ears is a great example, too, where we really had this great chance, you know, to really manage a place with land and people connected and remembering the people in that land. You know, we look at the ruins and Bears Ears and. And there used to be this idea that the. Those people disappeared, they went nowhere.
It was like, no, these people are here. They're still here. Their ancestors are still here.
So the idea, as we move forward, that these places could be managed not just for land, but for people as well, I think is really powerful. And, boy, does it really scare.
Is it really anathema to our current administration who would rather just wipe them off the face of the earth, as some of them have said, which is really awful.
Shawnté Salabert
00:37:45.630 - 00:38:51.350
Yeah, that. And then extract, extract, extract. Instead of figuring out how can we balance things out a little bit better?
You know, we're pretty, like, in a lot of ways, I look at what's going on now with our. I mean, Lack thereof of environmental policy. And it's because we're out of balance. Like, we're out of balance as a society.
We want to talk about this specific to nature. Most people in the United States grow up feeling disconnected from nature. Nature is a concept.
You go to nature, you don't live in nature, you're not of nature. But really we are, but we're taught we're not. So, you know, I think about all the things I always wished for is like, why not have environmental ed.
Nature teachings in our schools from preschool, kindergarten onward? Why not have more opportunities for adults?
Like, I think about all the accidents that happen in parks and in other outdoor areas, and a lot of it comes down to ignorance. Right. People just don't know how to be in a place safely sometimes. And so it's like, oh, if we just had.
If we had this from a young age where we all grew up feeling like we were part of the whole instead of separate from it, I feel like we'd be in a much better place politically right now, perhaps. And environmentally, of course.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:38:52.860 - 00:39:35.770
Yeah.
I mean, I think looking at how ecosystems work and, you know, being out there in the wild, seeing what ecosystems work, well, that work symbiotically, that work with a diversity of life while thriving, really is a good model for how we can run other things. Getting away from the wilderness as well, I think something we touched on a little bit earlier, but I'd like to go deeper into.
When we did the outdoor town draft on the rock fight, you chose New York City and LA as some of the best outdoor towns, and some people got upset, but you won the draft, you won the contest, according to the listeners. So why are LA and New York the most urban places in the United States?
Shawnté Salabert
00:39:36.010 - 00:42:56.380
So I've lived in both places, so I can speak to this from a very firsthand experience. Both places have built into the framework of their cities. First of all, large parks. Central park in New York and Griffith park here in la. But then.
And then we've got other large parks. You know, la, we've got Elysian, for instance, New York, you've got Prospect park and so on. There's parks built in.
And these were part of the city fabric for both places.
And as outdoor recreation became more popular, I'd say, especially when you're thinking about 70s and the 80s and more people started getting out and doing things, more gear was developed to sort of encourage people to get out and do things. You'd see run clubs and you'd see people kayaking on the LA river and now there's, you know, guided tours and things like that.
La, of course, we have a climate that allows you to be outside year round. Both cities have public transportation that'll get you into these places, get you to the parks.
They can even get you slightly outside the city to go to different trails and things like that. You've got bike paths, you've got water access in both cities.
Different, of course, like I don't necessarily want to go paddle the Gowanus Canal, but not to say that people don't, but you have, you have migratory bird paths in both places. There's so many ways that these are outdoor cities. LA did this amazing thing. I actually wrote about it for Outside magazine a couple years ago.
La, you know, we had back in the day this million tree planting kind of, you know, mirror campaign. But then it evolved into like really trying to reduce urban heat.
And so in cities, you see, if you go back, I'm gonna get a little nerdy poli sci here. But you know, you could talk about redlining. And redlining was simply this idea that certain neighborhoods were seen as undesirable.
And we're talking black and brown neighborhoods and this is where highways were built back in the day. And then when you had highways, you would put in the big box stores and so on.
And you'd then also, as part of this, there's a specific subset of policing around landscape and how foliage is an impediment to crime fighting. And so we've gotta take down trees and we've gotta down hedges in these bad neighborhoods.
And so, and I forget the name of it, there's a jaunty little acronym, but it was, it's actually part of police design to take trees and greenery out of these neighborhoods. It's awful. And so you've got neighborhoods that are hotter, you've got neighborhoods that are by the highways and getting all these emissions.
And there's proven higher rates of asthma in these places with kids. And LA is actually doing something very active.
They've been working with usc, Google and some other folks to use over variety of different technologies to use on the ground groups like Tree People and Eastside Trees and everything to basically do mass tree plantings, give trees away to people, but also do public education and work within the framework they have as a city government to try to improve tree canopy across the city, not just in wealthy places like Beverly Hills. And it's wild. So I would say their environmental efforts in New York, they've done trust.
Republic Land has done an amazing job linking Together and growing green space in small places because that's New York is a tiny. Manhattan's tiny. But in schoolyards and things like that, they've done a lot of work greening it.
So both cities are also super committed to greening up their cities and in service of the people and the animals who live there. So I still stand by those picks. I think they're great outdoor towns.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:42:56.620 - 00:43:10.530
Well, and I think as we exponentially continue to grow as a species, we're going to have to be more urban. And to survive in urban environments, we're going to have to still retain this, this primal connection to the outdoors in some way. Right.
Shawnté Salabert
00:43:10.850 - 00:43:47.090
I can even feel it in myself if I don't get outside for a day or two. I'm outside just about every day here, even if it's just this morning. I did a two mile walk to go to the bank and back.
I start to feel weird inside if I don't have that connection. I even love just looking outside my window and seeing plants. I have an herb garden going right now.
It is a part of us and I wish that more people felt safe exploring that connection and understanding that this, this nature, the outdoors, capital O doesn't have to be this far away thing and this scary thing. There's a place there for all of us and we have to find it like we have to. Otherwise I don't know what's going to happen to us as a species.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:50.930 - 00:44:02.450
Well, let's take a moment to do some self promotion. Let's talk about your new Rock Fight podcast, Gear Abbey. Where did it come from? What was the idea? Why are we getting Gear Abbey?
Shawnté Salabert
00:44:02.450 - 00:44:50.020
So Gear Abby, of course, is a play for people of our generation will know what I'm talking about. Dear Abby, which is a long running advice column. But so one day I was listening. About a year ago. Exactly. It was last fall.
I was listening to an episode of the Rock Fight. It was Colin and Justin bantering as they do.
And one of them mentioned something about, oh, you know what, we should have Shantae just answer people's questions. And I texted them. I remember I was driving up to Yosemite. I was gonna hike up to Clouds Rest that day.
And right before I got into the park, I'd been listening and I texted them before I lost service. I was like, I'll be your Gear Abby, kind of as a joke. And we ended up saying, wait, maybe there's something here.
And you know, Colin, if you know the listeners have listened to Colin at all on the Rock Fight you know, he's just like a exuberant ideas guy and he will try his best to make the ideas come to life, which.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:44:50.020 - 00:44:51.180
And he does. He makes them happen.
Shawnté Salabert
00:44:51.180 - 00:45:53.110
He does, yeah. That's what I love. He's not just a thinker or an imagineer, but he actually does the things. So he just spent a long time talking about it.
And I said, for me, I went to school originally to college to be an environment mental educator, be a park ranger, maybe. I ended up becoming a school social worker. But that part of me that has always wanted to give back and educate is always been within me.
And so I taught for about six years as part of the Sierra Club's wilderness travel course, which is a super cool 10 week course. All the instructors are volunteers.
We take people on field trips, we teach them how to navigate, how to be one, like, you know, a good steward of land while they're out there, how to feel comfortable, filtering water and go to the bathroom and doing all the stuff you do on a backpacking trip. And I've taken people on so many trips, I can't count how many. Up into the Sierra, into the desert, stuff like that.
I've taught classes with Kula Cloth, with the adventurous. I love education. I used to write a sex column when I wrote for the all weekly under a pseudonym, so nobody knew it was me except for my editor.
But we're like, what?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:45:53.190 - 00:45:54.950
Not the p. Not the people you were dating?
Shawnté Salabert
00:45:55.030 - 00:46:49.630
Not that, no. But yeah, we're like, what? Let's just kind of roll this all into this.
This one podcast where I could be funny and irreverent and silly, but also hopefully lay down some education for people, help inspire people to maybe try some things they haven't. Help people feel empowered if maybe they had a question about something they're too embarrassed to ask somebody else.
Yeah, the thought is really like, hey, I think about all of the people in my life that helped me become the person I am today.
And, you know, if we're thinking about the outdoors, like I had mentors, it's not as common when you think about hiking, cycling, paddling, all of that stuff than it is hunting and fishing. It's way more common to have mentors in those outdoor pursuits.
So why not try to sort of expand my role as an outdoor, you know, mentor or educator in a very different kind of way through the podcast? So that's the hope.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:46:49.870 - 00:46:52.990
And how is it going to be different than any podcast we've ever heard before?
Shawnté Salabert
00:46:53.070 - 00:47:42.780
It's essentially an advice column in podcast form using My own experience, but also doing research. I'm calling on experts sometimes and I'm trying to keep it lighthearted and fun.
So it's fun to listen to, but also getting to the heart of what the question is. And I'm not a shill for any sort of brand or anything like that. So it's all pretty independent. I mean, it's very much in the rock fight mold.
Little bit of irreverence, little bit of throwing rocks, but also never at the person who's asking the question. I have mad respect for anyone who wants to, wants to know more and is trying to seek out additional knowledge in their life.
And so I approach it with that sort of loving, big sister vibe is how I'd put it. So, yeah, I think it's, it's fun, it's funny, but it's also hopefully thoughtful and insightful for people.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:47:43.260 - 00:48:06.250
I'm certainly excited to hear about gear. I'm always like, how can we do gear in a different way?
So I am really excited to hear it through the lens of, of you educating and bringing all your sex column, rock drummer, boys and girls club background, you know, passion for the outdoors into this. And I love that. It's really going to be about education.
Shawnté Salabert
00:48:06.890 - 00:48:44.930
Yeah, we'll get some laughs. There will be laughs. But I really do think the education is the big thing. And also just turning the outdoor industry, if you want to put it that way.
And even outdoor media, I think is still very bro focused. And I think we've done, we've come, we've made some real long strides since the, you know, since I started writing for Outside or whomever.
But it still does feel. You go to a trade show and you see it even it still feels very much like a male dominated space.
And so if I can provide a different voice, I want to try to do that. So. But a voice that welcomes all people, but a voice that also is going to have fun with it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:48:44.930 - 00:48:45.970
I'm excited to listen.
Shawnté Salabert
00:48:45.970 - 00:48:46.740
Oh, thanks, Bethlehem.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:48:47.530 - 00:48:49.290
I guess I'm sort of a bro. I don't know.
Shawnté Salabert
00:48:49.370 - 00:48:51.050
I don't know. I don't think of you as a bro.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:48:51.130 - 00:48:51.770
I could bro.
Shawnté Salabert
00:48:52.170 - 00:48:57.050
You're a deep. Well, you could bro. We could. I could bro too. We can all bro. We've brought on the podcast together.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:48:57.290 - 00:49:26.680
I interviewed Shane McConkey once and he told me like, about people like coming up to him and trying to talk to him at bars and stuff or, you know, be like sort of a local celebrity and he'd be like, look, I don't want to bro. Right now, I just want to hang out with my friends. We're getting near the end now. So how can people find Gear Abby?
How can they learn more about you and what you do? How can they get your books? Give us your PR pitch right now.
Shawnté Salabert
00:49:26.680 - 00:50:45.430
Oh, my gosh. Well, I do have a website that is sorely in need of an update, which I shall obviously do before this episode. Thanks for the inspiration, Doug.
It's just my name. Shantaysalibert.com gear Abby, we're going to host that. That's with the Rock Fight podcast network.
So if you go Rockfight co, we'll have Gear Abby on the site and then you'll be able to listen to it anywhere. You listen to podcasts. And also people can send their questions to me. And this is what I really want. I want your honest questions.
You can ask questions about anything. Honestly, I'm not, you know, unless it's a, like, kind of a jerk wad of a question that's sexist, racist, whatnot. Ableist. I'll answer your questions.
So send it to myrockfight Gmail.com myrockfight Gmail.com as far as my books, I always try to get people to go to indie booksellers. I love going to bookshops. It is one of my great, greatest joys in life.
Or if you go to, like, a visitor center anywhere in Southern California or just California parks and rec areas, you'll probably find it there. But it's hiking the Pacific Crest Trail, Southern California.
I've also been in a couple other books, including The Campfire Stories, Volume 2, which came out in Mountaineers. Wrote a little story about how I always craved enchiladas on trail. A little poetic piece about my favorite food. But, yeah, I'm around.
I'm on Instagram, you know, the whole shebang.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:50:45.510 - 00:51:03.030
I am more than willing to go eat enchiladas next time we have you on open container, because there will be a next time, and I can't wait for that. And I'm going to leave you with the last question that we ask everyone as the last question on this show. And that is simply, what gives you hope?
Shawnté Salabert
00:51:03.270 - 00:52:02.710
I get hope in two ways. I'd say first, I look at the people around me who are rising above the noise, rising above of the. All of the bad stuff happening right now.
You know, I live in Pasadena, a block away from my house. A bunch of men were taken from a bus stop by people, you know, supposed ICE agents.
And it set off, you know, a whole nationwide scenario where now you've got a lawsuit against the federal government because of what happened a block away from my house. So I look at people who are standing up to tyranny. I look at people who are rising despite being pushed down.
And I will always have hope when I see that. I also will always have hope when I go into nature and I see a flower, when I see a green leaf, when I see an animal, hear a bird chirping.
And it's a reminder for me that I am just a small bit of the whole, that sometimes it's important to sort of zoom out and look at life that way and not make yourself the center of it all. And it really grounds me a lot. So I will say nature gives me hope and good people fight in the good fight.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:52:02.950 - 00:52:08.960
Shantae Salibert, I cannot thank you enough for being on Open Container. I know you'll be on again. Thank you.
Shawnté Salabert
00:52:09.360 - 00:52:11.840
Oh, thanks, Doug. What a pleasure. I feel so honored.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:52:14.640 - 00:52:44.490
Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight llc. Be sure to tune in to Shantae and Gear Abby on the Rock Fight Network.
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some. Thanks for listening. All good. Dude, I want that contract extension.
