Voices for the Voiceless: The Role of Environmentalists Today

Click to listen on your favorite podcast app!

Today Doug opens the container with outdoor industry media veteran, Drew Simmons.

Doug opens the show lamenting the fact that despite the challenges our natural world faces, environmentalist has become a dirty word these days. He goes on to describe the 30 by 30 initiative, which seeks to conserve 30% of the Earth’s ecosystems by the year 2030, and implore Open Container listeners to help protect our planet however they can.

Doug is then joined by Drew Simmons who is known for his work in the PR and media world of the outdoor industry. Their conversation navigates the relationship between outdoor recreation and conservation, advocating for a unified approach that recognizes the inherent value of the outdoors beyond human enjoyment.

Thanks for listening! Open Container is a production of Rock Fight, LLC.

Sign up for NEWS FROM THE FRONT, Rock Fight's semi-weekly newsletter by heading to www.rockfight.co and clicking Join The Mailing List.

Please follow and subscribe to Open Container and give us a 5 star rating and a written review wherever you get your podcasts.

Send your feedback, questions, and comments to myrockfight@gmail.com.

Click Here To Listen On Your Favorite Podcast App

Or Just Click The Player Below.

Episode Transcript:

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:00:00.720 - 00:07:40.740

Hey everyone.

Before we get started today, I want to thank you for listening to Open Container and ask that you please subscribe to the show by clicking Follow on the podcast app you're using right now. Following the podcast is the best way to ensure that we will continue to crack open the container every single week.

Thank you and let's start the show. Welcome to Open Container Doug I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. I'm a journalist, writer, and overall lover of the outdoors.

I've fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I've played Ultimate under the Midnight Sun.

On this podcast, we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Let's get some One of the hardest things about being a conservationist, or, let's just say it, an environmentalist, is that you're always losing.

Even just now, I hesitated. For some reason, the word environmentalist has become tainted, loaded with shame and stigma.

And yet, as my friend Mike Medbury, a savvy and effective environmentalist himself, once said, being an advocate simply means speaking up for the species and places that have no voice. Still, it's true. Every day we lose more of the natural world. Developments pave over fields, forests are cleared, species disappear.

Conservatively estimated, between 200 and 2,000 extinctions occur every year, and over 1 million species currently face extinction. Hard fought protections are stripped away, sometimes erased overnight with the whim of a new political leader.

Just look at Bears Ears National Monument.

It was a major victory, not just for the animals and the landscape, but also for the native people who were finally going to help manage land they've used and honored for millennia.

Right now, all our protections for wild places, parks, forests, deserts are under threat, and somehow those who fight for these places are being cast as villains, or while those seeking to exploit or privatize them are positioning themselves as heroes, champions of freedom, battling some imagined tyranny. That's simply not true. Our planet remains in serious danger. Maybe this is at the root of why environmentalist has become a dirty word.

No one wants to hear that the sky is falling, and some environmentalists were just bad at it, or worse, did things to make people hate them. And those in power have controlled the narrative. And yet we can survive on a damaged, even dying planet.

But we've never truly lived through that reality. We don't know what that means. I've long admired biologist and writer E.O. wilson.

He began his career studying ants and soon recognized the parallels between their colonies and human society. He called this eusology, the way we. Specialize, the way we divide labor, the.

Way some of us stay in the core while others venture out to forage. Like ants, we all play different roles, and like ants, we have the ability to dominate any ecosystem we enter.

But Wilson believed, starting with the Industrial revolution, humanity has suddenly become more powerful and dangerous than any other force on the planet.

He writes, the real problem of humanity is the we have Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and godlike technology, and it is terrifically dangerous. And it is now approaching a point of crisis. Overall. Wilson reminds us that we are just one of the biosphere's current inhabitants.

He writes, human beings are not exempt from the iron laws of species interdependency. We were not inserted as ready made invasives into an Edenic world, nor were we intended by Providence to rule that world.

Our physiology and our minds are adapted for life in the biosphere, which we have only begun to understand. We are now able to protect the rest of life, but instead we remain recklessly prone to destroy and replace a. Large part of it.

But it doesn't have to be this way. With our technology, with our understanding, we can create a future in which we and the rest of life can survive and thrive.

For Wilson, that vision was half Earth. The idea that we must set aside half the planet for the species we share it with, it's not an outrageous proposal.

In fact, it's both modest and essential. And yet I worry we may not have the resolve to do it. Our species continues to act with selfish abandon.

Still, there are people working to make this vision a reality. We must support them, vote for them, fight for policies that ensure humans and nature can coexist and continue on.

There is so much to learn still from the natural world. As Wilson explains in the book Half Earth, we are part of the biosphere. To forget that, to pretend we are gods outside of it, is a profound mistake.

In this country, there's a movement to create something like half Earth, or at least a third. It's called the 30 by 30 initiative, a call to protect 30% of the Earth's ecosystems by the year 2030.

It's a simple idea, a modest goal, and essential. The Biden administration embraced it. So do states like California and New York.

But at the same time, there's a political movement determined to erase this idea entirely. We need to take that threat seriously.

We won't be able to reach everyone, but we must come up with visionary, inclusive strategies to preserve ecosystems, especially for people facing economic hardship. If we want to meet this challenge, and protect a biologically rich, diverse planet. We must think deeply and act decisively.

I believe most of the people listening to this podcast agreement. I hope you'll go out, be persuasive and find ways to protect this planet, ways that are inclusive of wildlife, plants and people alike.

And call yourselves environmentalists again. My guest today is a good friend, someone who would never brag or pump himself up.

But the truth is he's been working toward visionary conservation goals for years. And those goals always include people. Drew Simmons, Day Job is founder and President of Pale Morning Media.

He's been fortunate enough to work with some of the most inspirational and creative outdoor minded businesses and conservation organizations in the world, and he has T shirts and trucker hats to prove it.

He's also an outdoor recreation economy advocate at the national, state and local levels, including work with the Vermont Outdoor Recreation Economic Collaborative, the Vermont Outdoor Business alliance. And the Confluence of States.

He also does a bit of writing for WickedOutdoorsy.com as well as occasional trade and consumer publications like Elevation Outdoors and Grassroots Stories. Now let's open the container with Drew Simmons. Here I am with an old friend. And one of the people I've learned a lot from in the outdoor industry. Drew Simmons is on Open Container today. Drew, it's good to see you.

Drew Simmons

00:07:40.740 - 00:07:45.140

It's great to see you, Doug man. Honored and flattered to be sharing a microphone with you.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:07:45.220 - 00:07:55.860

Well, I think we've got a lot to get into, but I want to start kind of maybe softball question for you to begin. What keeps you in love with the place you live? Vermont.

Drew Simmons

00:07:57.140 - 00:09:20.960

It's a great question.

You know, I think for people who've never been to Vermont, especially people west of the Boulder Reservoir, Vermont is about, it's about three times the size of Yellowstone with about the same population as the city of Denver. It's got a twin ridge of green mountains that go north to south through the state. It's got hundreds of lakes and ponds. It's got dozens of ski areas.

It is having a true moment in mountain biking right now. The amount of excellent trails that are existing and are being built are just fantastic.

And you know, I, I do think, though, what keeps me in love with Vermont. And keep in mind, I've only been here 20 years, so I barely know where the roads are going.

But the thing that keeps me in love with Vermont is the community and the people that are here.

And you know, last weekend I went to a place called Knoll Farm in the Mad River Valley for a memorial service for a friend's Daughter who died in a ski accident in Tahoe last winter. And it was pounding rain, just pissing sideways, cold rain. A few hundred people sat inside.

A few hundred people, including myself, were outside in a tent around a speaker. And everybody stayed for the entire time.

It is a remarkable community of people in Vermont and people who really love the outdoors and love being with each other outdoors.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:09:21.840 - 00:09:32.940

But you grew up in Colorado, you grew up in Boulder, and you really cut your teeth in Jackson. Do the Rockies still hold a draw for you? Do you still love being out west as well?

Drew Simmons

00:09:33.660 - 00:10:25.530

I mean, of course. You know, I think when people ask me if I miss Jackson or if I miss Boulder, I say, well, I kind of miss that in the same way I miss being 17.

You know, it's like just. It's a different part of my life. It's, you know, a different experience.

And the things that I remember about it, I love, you know, I love the memories I had there, the friends and family I had there. And yes, of course, if somebody waved their magic wand and told me I had to move back to Wyoming or Colorado, of course I would love that and do it.

I think, though, as we'll talk about and as we've talked about in the past, the key to happiness is being happy where you are and being thankful for your life, not thankful for every moment in your life and where you are at that exact second. So I think just being thankful and grateful for where I am keeps me happy wherever I am, honestly.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:10:25.850 - 00:10:32.090

And I mean, what has. What has Vermont taught you as someone who is a child of the West?

Drew Simmons

00:10:32.570 - 00:11:47.760

Well, it certainly made me a better skier. You know, I think. I think, you know, I was all about the wide open bowls and soft snow and coming here. I have.

I have learned a ton about edges and ski tuning, and I've become quite good at repairing core shots.

But it's been humbling, you know, I think it's been, you know, I've really found a lot of enjoyment from the bad weather stuff here as much as the good weather stuff. I think one of the things about the Vermont culture is that people.

People aren't afraid to do something because it's hard, you know, or the weather's bad. They'll still do it anyway, and they'll love every minute of it.

And, you know, I think one of the things that really reinforces that for me is, you know, you'll go up to the ski area and see this group called Vermont Adaptive, which is a, you know, accessible outdoor, non profit, and they, they take, you know, people of all sorts of challenges, skiing or mountain biking or fishing or whatever it might be.

And, you know, he'll be up there on a day where it's, you know, 20 below and snow's harder than God's forehead, and they'll be out there on a sit ski skiing all day, just with a huge grin on their face. And, you know, it's inspiring. It's just a. It's a. It's a great thing.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:11:48.340 - 00:12:08.100

Well, you've worked in the outdoor space in some form. You were a journalist. You started your own PR company. You worked at a foundational PR company.

You've been involved in a lot of activism, leadership for at least 30 years. Right. How has your path in this space. Continued to evolve and grow?

Drew Simmons

00:12:09.700 - 00:14:10.320

I mean, it's an interesting question.

When I was sort of thinking through this question and thinking back on my path, I think one thing that's kind of interesting is that all those steps were really about seeing a door opening and stepping through it.

You know, when I first moved to Jackson Hole and was working in construction during the day and working at a liquor store at night, and I had this idea that I wanted to work in the newspaper. I didn't know. I'd never worked in a newspaper before. I didn't know how it worked.

And so there was a midnight premiere of the movie Dick Tracy with Warren Beatty at a local theater. And so I thought to myself, I'm going to go to that midnight premiere.

I'm going to go home, I'm going to write a review, drop it off of the newspaper the next morning, and they were going to be super impressed and cover me with gold and usher my way into the newspaper. And I did it, and I wrote it, and I dropped it off. And I didn't hear from him for a couple months, honestly. And I was like, man, boy, that.

That was dumb. But then they did call. Mike select called and offered me a job as the Jacksonville News first sports writer.

And really, I felt that working for the newspapers in Jackson was like getting a master's degree in communication.

Just learning about how to talk to people, how to interview people, how to get to the core of what a story really is, and really that journalistic approach and just sort of this idea of asking questions all the time wherever you are, really has sort of guided me. I mean, and now it's gone from asking questions, I think, to honestly just being open to learning.

You know, I really want to keep learning and keep progressing, and that's sort of guiding my career now as I start working in with more conservation groups and working with, you know, in the resale space and working. Continuing to work with some great brands and people. It's just I'm so thankful of the opportunity to learn from these people.

And that definitely is what keeps me moving forward.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:14:10.880 - 00:14:26.880

Brings up two things, I think. One, that's incredible. I think there could be a whole documentary made on the Jackson Hole news, right?

Because so many people involved in the outdoor industry started there. Maybe. Tell me a little bit about that.

Drew Simmons

00:14:27.600 - 00:16:24.280

It's pretty amazing, honestly.

I mean, the sports writers after me and Jackson included Porter Fox, Tom Bai, entertainment writers, Frederick Reimers, you know, numerous photographers that have worked in the outdoor space. There was something about the access there.

I mean, if you're a photographer at the Jacksonville News, you know, all you had to do is make sure to frame the photo so the Grand Teton wasn't back and you won an award. But for everybody else, it was just trying to get as close as possible to whatever was emerging at that time.

I mean, for instance, I remember when Tom Bai wrote what I believe was the first article ever about Teton gravity Research, you know, and he had been sort of lurking around those guys for a while and realized something cool was going on, you know, and, you know, when I.

When I was at the newspaper, I was funny, I remember the day I was thinking about this the other day I was there, and the managing editor, this guy, Angus Thurmer, called me over and said, hey, this fellow just walked in, Stephen Koch. He says he just snowboarded the Grand Teton. Why don't you write a story about it?

So I went out and interviewed Stephen about his first descent to the Grand Teton on a snowboard. It was incredible. I couldn't believe. It was just something that kind of walked right up to you and presented the opportunity.

But it's a remarkable place to get clips. I mean, those newspapers have.

Have really been a launchpad for a lot of journalists, not just in the outdoor industry, but in the broader journalism industry. I mean, Craig Welch, Ed Wyatt, I mean, the list, I'm Lisa Flood.

I'm forgetting names for sure, but people have gone on to have remarkable careers, seem to have come through that place. And it really is remarkable when you look at that sort of coaching tree from the Jacksonville newspapers.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:16:24.900 - 00:16:39.940

And this is kind of the way we make it, right, as outdoor dirtbags. We moved there just to play, right? And then somehow we found a way to keep the dirt bag life living on into a professional career.

Drew Simmons

00:16:40.580 - 00:17:44.880

Yeah, 100%. I mean, my first newspaper salary was 13,500. And that's not 1350 an hour. That was $13,500 a year.

And I was pumped, I was so pumped for that opportunity. And, you know, it's funny, you know, I eventually got a raise and made it, I think, to $20,000 a year or something crazy like that.

But really it was the opportunity to write those stories and engage with people and, yeah, really remarkable. Go to the rodeo, cover snowmobile races, cover hunting and fishing and skiing.

And, you know, and then people like Janek Noah would come to town for a tennis exhibition and you'd interview Janek and, you know, going to the Jackson Ole One fly and interviewing, you know, Chuck Yeager about fly fishing, it just, I mean, it was, it was remarkable. Just sort of the cast of characters that came through there. And yeah, we could, we could talk for days about the Jackson Hole newspapers, for sure.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:17:45.570 - 00:18:19.970

Well, and then what I love is, I think both of us in similar ways, we began kind of just finding a way to pay the bills with bad paying jobs, which might not have been the best idea. But then slowly it has evolved because really we came into it because we loved wild places and the outdoors and something beyond us.

And then that's evolved for you into advocating for brands and now really advocating for. For those spaces to keep this, you know, to keep what brought us there vibrant and alive.

Drew Simmons

00:18:20.690 - 00:19:38.030

Yeah, and it's interesting, you know, I think a lot of it is. You know, I've joked at times that I've spent my career trying to get as close as possible to the heartbeat of the outdoor industry.

And I think that's true of a lot of people. You know, we. You get a taste of it and you really love that life and you really love those experiences. And so you want to stay close to it.

And you're like, well, how can I stay close to it? You're like, well, I can. I can become a part of it. I can be a translator or an advocate or a storyteller around this space.

And, you know, that starts as a way, like you said, to put, you know, pizza on the table and dog food in the bowl and pay for gas for your Volkswagen van. But then it becomes, you know, what, what else can I do? You know, how can I help this thing as well as make a little bit of money from it?

You know, and I think that that's also a natural progression. I think, you know, in the outdoor world.

And you get into the outdoor advocacy space, everybody's on this timeline, you know, from being a brand new beginner in advocacy to being a, you know, a veteran expert. And everybody's on a scale in there.

And I think as you progress up that scale, you know, what motivates you and what, what your goals are start to change.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:19:38.590 - 00:19:48.590

So with all this experience, you know what we're looking at right now, what is your biggest concern, you know, for the outdoor industry, for public lands, for the freaking planet?

Drew Simmons

00:19:49.230 - 00:24:18.840

I mean, should I just throw, throw a dart at the wall and pick one of those concerns off it? You know, I mean, it's, you know, I think there's, there's a bunch of things that I'm concerned about.

And you know, generally speaking, I'm an optimistic guy and I try to see things glass half full, but I do think that there are things that are not huge secrets.

I think as far as the outdoor industry goes, my hot take right now is that the pandemic outdoor boom was actually not a great thing for the outdoor industry. It was this rush of profit taking.

And in that rush of profit taking, which has now come back to earth, and we're basically at the same levels that we were pre pandemic.

But during that rush, a lot of people's priorities changed and people shifted what they wanted to do, they shifted how they were marketing to people, and generally speaking, put a ton of money into digital at the expense of literally everything else.

And now that we're post pandemic, the cost of those digital tools has gone up and their effectiveness has gone down now with the arrival of AI and people are looking around saying, wait, what do I do now? Even though the answer is, well, what were you doing before the pandemic?

You were advertising in magazines and you were going to trade shows, but they don't want to do that because they took it off their line item. So I do think the outdoor industry is a little bit like, you know, young adult males right now.

I mean, they're sort of addicted to technology and living in their parents basement and are getting really lonely. And you know, and you know, the answer is they got to get outside, they got to mix it up with other people and they gotta try some new stuff.

I mean, you know, and then as far as public lands go, I mean, I think that my probably biggest concerns is, you know, we're gearing up for this quote, unquote, fight for public lands. And unfortunately, I think we should probably be thinking about round two rather than round one.

I think, yes, we should do everything in our power to stop the sell off of public lands and the stop of conversion to privatization. But one of the truisms in advocacy and policy work that virtually everyone knows is it's not a sprint, it's a marathon.

And you know, just because you clicked that box once and sent one form letter, like, that's just not enough. You know, we've really got to, really got to get ready. And you know, and at the same point, you have to get ready for those conversations about what.

What's the difference between public land and private land when it comes to outdoor recreation? I mean, you can look at a fantastic private mountain biking area or ski area or even fishing stream.

So, like, what's the difference between that and public?

And I mean, the answer is really the predictability of it, that what makes public land an ongoing economic driver is people can plan their trips months, years, decades in advance, knowing it's going to be there. You can build businesses around it, you can buy homes near it.

But when it's on private land, all it takes is like somebody spilling a cup of coffee on somebody else and it's gone. So I think public lands are, we need to buckle up because it's going to be a long ride. And you know, and as far as the planet goes. Right.

Like I said, we're just going down the hit list, the depressing stuff. But, you know, I think, you know, it like really the riddle of urbanization on the planetary level is something that really concerns me.

I mean, we all know that really for us to make this work with a growing population, we have to, we have to have better cities.

We have to have better, you know, you know, put density where there's density and consolidate resources and, and, you know, focus on, on those areas and try to leave as much open area as we can. However, when we focus everything on those urban areas, people become more detached from those rural areas and those, those, those natural spaces.

And they don't care about them anymore.

They just care about their, you know, their cruller and their, you know, and their Michelob Ultra, you know, and it just is, I think that's a real riddle for me right now how to support urbanization and support rural areas and ideally connect them with outdoor recreation.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:24:19.080 - 00:25:00.540

I mean, that brings up a great point, I think, thinking about urban areas and what's outdoors in them and what's nature in them. Right.

I read this great book, Mannahatta, about Manhattan. You know, the naturalist of New York was tracing back what Manhattan looked like pre settlement.

And in his last chapter, he talks about New York actually being this model for sustainability for the world moving forward. And I know when we had the Outdoor town draft on the Rock Fight podcast, Shantae named New York and LA kind of as her favorite outdoor towns.

So, I mean, we have to look. At urban areas as encompassing outdoors as well, I guess.

Drew Simmons

00:25:01.180 - 00:26:04.030

Yeah, 100%.

I mean, you know, one of the big thing that's happening right now or in the last five years in outdoor recreation nationally is this idea of making the pie bigger, you know, creating more outdoor recreation opportunities closer to cities, in cities.

And really, it's funny, that's an old idea that really was something that came out of the 1950s and Outdoor Recreation Commission in the 1950s that was looking at the population boom after World War II, projecting that we were going to be drowning in humans by 1999 and trying to figure out how to preserve natural spaces where they can, which led to the creation of the Land Water Conservation Fund eventually. But we know it's true, and we know that this is what we have to do. But we also are some of the people that.

That have been outside and value that outdoor time and that outdoor experience, and, you know, we really do. You know, we need more of us, and that's really what it comes down to.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:26:04.190 - 00:26:35.960

And I think this brings up a big, you know, part of the big conflict now. Where is our, you know, our public lands just a playground for people from urban areas? On the one hand is. I think that's the accusation.

You know, Mike Lee seems to say that it's for elitists who want to make it a feudal state.

But on the other hand, should they just belong to a few people living in rural areas or private owners and be denied to millions of Americans in urban spaces? Right. I mean, that's the debate right now, in a way.

Drew Simmons

00:26:36.680 - 00:27:42.730

You know, it's funny.

I think that public lands as a term is a lot like outdoor recreation or conservation in that it gets used as this sort of monolithic thing, you know, and. And it allows people like Mike Lee to project what, you know, and speak truth. He's like, he.

Because he might be thinking of an area where it is elitist and only used by a certain amount of people. And meanwhile, somebody else is like, well, I'm thinking about a different kind of public land, you know, and the reality is there's.

There are so many types of public lands, and.

And I think we have to expand our vocabulary in that area and talk about community forests and talk about, you know, parkways and talk about, you know, you know, all the various types of public lands so that it, you know, when it becomes this sort of national mcpolitic, like, we're only talking in these monolithic things. You know, it's an impossible argument to win.

You know, we have to be able to have a little nuance and educate people and bring them along for the ride and not just tell them what they can or can't do.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:27:43.290 - 00:28:29.000

I mean, that's an interesting point. We need some kind of new vision of how to manage lands. Right.

I think, as you said, you know, back in the 50s and 60s, you know, I was reading recently, you know, 1961 was this watershed year in protecting lands and seeing these protections, right? And they were forecasting out, I think, in 1958. They were forecasting in 1976 and the year 2000.

No one, you know, it seems like we're still fighting, but no one is coming up with a new vision. You know, the vision is either for private landowners to hold these lands and then really to be gone or for continuing the same.

Have you seen anyone who's had some kind of really big new vision for. Managing land or how we look at land?

Drew Simmons

00:28:29.400 - 00:30:28.500

I mean, it's very interesting.

So where, where I live in Vermont, you know, the vast majority of our lands for recreation are private, you know, and, you know, yes, we do have the Green Mountain National Forest, and, and we do have public lands. And so, you know, it's, it's a. It's. People are on different timelines.

I think that when it comes to supporting public lands, I think is really more of the terminology and trying to figure out the stewardship angle is really where the riddle for where I am right now is how do we, how do we get people past just like, hey, we paid for this public land or this, this, this private land to become a recreation resource, but we also have to take care of it, you know, and, and I think, you know, public lands, like, you know, I'll admit one of the, One of the things that has always grinded me a little bit is the I am a public landowner T shirt. You know, it's, it's, it's.

If you're, you know, I would rather see you wearing a T shirt that said, I volunteered 10 days on trail crew last year, you know, as opposed to I bought this T shirt and now I can go, you know, mountain biking here and never pay anybody another dime.

There's just a little bit of entitlement there that I think is not helpful in the big picture of public lands, you know, and, you know, I think you and I have talked about in the past that, you know, we're not gonna, we're not gonna compel people to fight for public lands by explaining that it's gonna help a few thousand businesses or a few hundred businesses in the outdoor industry from going out of business. Right. That's just not gonna, that's not going to swing anybody.

We have to convince them and we have to show them that this is important to you and it's going to be important to your kids.

And really that doing away with public lands is putting a very short term priority ahead of something that can really provide generations of wealth and public health outcomes for our kids and beyond.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:30:29.300 - 00:30:55.500

I think one place I know that you have really been a strong supporter of and advocate of is, you know, management and production on the state level. And a big idea. There is these outdoor recreation departments in each state.

Started in Utah, moved to Colorado, you have a really strong outdoor recreation department in Vermont. Why are you a big supporter of orex, as they're called?

Drew Simmons

00:30:55.740 - 00:34:40.120

I think that the epiphany of outdoor recreation offices was that really at the time when the OREC movement started in the early 2000 and tens or however you refer to that decade, there was really only one game in town and that was supporting an organization like Outdoor Industry association to try to advocate in all 50 states. And that is just a. Not a workable budget solution. I mean, just to have OIA be relevant at, at the federal level is a big lift.

And so this idea that, wow, what if we could sort of clone advocacy and create these pockets of outdoor recreation advocates in every state in the country is really a big idea. It raises the visibility, it raises the respectability, it raises the awareness of outdoor recreation under the dome of your state capitol.

And that opens a lot of doors. You know, I mean, the cliche is if you're not at the table, your lunch.

But I think, I think having, having that respectability and being there and being in the trenches on a day to day basis is super important. I mean, you know, it's not a secret, but really advocacy and all policy work is about earning political capital and spending political capital.

And to earn it, you got to be there, you got to put the work in, you got to be a good neighbor, you got to testify for your friends, testify for your allies and build that community. And then spending the political capital, you don't get that many chances to do it.

And a great example of that is this outdoor movement which happened in the early 2000. Teens installed these state offices of outdoor recreation. And I don't know how many, how many it was when the pandemic hit.

But one of the outcomes of the pandemic was that all this federal money became available through ARPA and through other funding sources.

And the states that had infrastructure in place for outdoor recreation were able to capture huge amounts of this because a lot of that funding was earmarked for outdoor recreation. And people who had those bodies in place were able to jump on this.

And once again, when you invest in outdoor recreation resources or you maintain your public lands, you're making a long term investment in the economic health of your rural areas specifically, and enabling them to not turn to short term alternatives like extractive industries, which once you dig it up, it doesn't go back to being a natural place ever again. You know, and I really, there's so many things moving so quickly and I really am hopeful that people can take the long view.

You know, I, you know, just as a brief aside, I've been doing some work in Maine around a conservation effort in the, with the Penobscot nation to return 30,000 acres to the Penobscot Nation on the east branch of the Penobscot River.

And, and one of the things that I learned in this, one of the many things I've learned in that process, is that their land management ethos is guided by a seven generation mentality that their decisions should be considered how it's going to impact the seventh generation beyond you, I would be incredibly thankful if we could just even take half of that or a quarter of that for some of the decisions that the United States is making right now.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:34:40.360 - 00:34:49.840

And as always, it's a good reminder that this land we're arguing about and saying is ours and that people in the west there, they have more right to than people in the East. I mean, it's all stolen when it comes down to it, right?

Drew Simmons

00:34:49.840 - 00:35:26.910

So yeah, I mean, the land acknowledgment thing, I mean, I, I am.

I mean the land, the land back movement is something that I was really introduced to at the North Carolina Outdoor Economy Conference a couple years ago when a woman named Annette Clapsaddle from the Eastern Band of Cherokee spoke. And you know, it was a really, you know, it's just great.

Not a lot of us get a chance to hear from indigenous people about those things and to hear, hear it straight from a person who's been affected by those, by that impact their entire life is really powerful.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:35:28.990 - 00:35:36.740

So getting back to the Orex though, what, you know, are there certain states, you see who you really are admirer of, of the work they're doing?

Drew Simmons

00:35:38.020 - 00:39:35.770

Yeah.

I think, I think for me, right now with outdoor recreation, state offices of outdoor recreation, the places where it's really happening are the places where they also have something called an outdoor Business alliance in place. So a state outdoor office is something within the state government.

It's often housed within their maybe forestry department or, you know, some are within a, you know, their, their economic development office, you know, but there's somebody at the state level that has a, a desk. And then you have these outdoor business alliances which are groups of. They're like mini OIAs to use, use that example.

They are brands, reps, retailers, PR people, media, people from that state who are typically advising or working in tandem with those offices of outdoor recreation. And I think that public private partnership is really the secret sauce of all of this.

I think it's really hard if you're a private sector person to go into policy and get into government. It's a very strange place. They have a different word for everything.

They use lots of TLAs, which are three letter acronyms for anybody that doesn't know what that is. And there's just a different time process to it. There are different things like that.

And at the same point, for a government person to go into the private sector, it's a very different timeline as well. People are impatient and quarter to quarter driven and things like that. But I think bringing those two groups together is really the key.

There's something called the State Outdoor Business Alliance Network, which is the group of all the state OBAs, which is, I think, 25 different state OBAs. And they're actually going to be doing an annual convening at the Switchback Spring show in a couple weeks.

And I think when you look, I think you'd agree when you look at the states where you have that outdoor Business alliance working with that outdoor rec office, that's where things can really happen. And one of the reasons that it is important is because OBAs are disconnected from the political process.

They're not something that can be dissolved by the, by the stroke of a governor's pen.

You know, at the same point that that office of outdoor recreation provides a provide, it really provides a direct line of communication from the outdoor industry members in that state to the state offices and places where, I mean, I think a perfect example of a place where that's really happening and is, you know, incredible is in North Carolina where you've got Noah Wilson and then Amy Allison in the state office, really have been leaders in the space that I've just been inspired by for many years.

And other OREC and obas, obviously, in Vermont, Kelly Alt, who's the executive director of our state oba, and Jackie Dagger, who's our program director at the Vermont Outdoor Recreation Economic Collaborative.

And then there's, I think, one of the things that it's not a frustration, but I think it's important for states to tackle this riddle in the way that works best for them.

For instance, in West Virginia, their outdoor recreation initiative is housed through West Virginia University, where a guy named Danny Twilley is running the show down there. And I think that made sense for them, and that's great, you know, and, you know, I think it's. There's a lot of different ways to go about it.

It's hard.

It's low budget, you know, but at the same point, I think there's strength in numbers and things like so ban and the confluence of states have really been incredibly valuable in helping really provide that tide that lifts all boats, Seeing.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:39:35.770 - 00:39:50.930

The states are doing all this great work on their own and are being really effective. You know, our friend Luis Benitez has brought up the idea of a national rec or a national department of Outdoor recreation.

Do you think that would be a good thing or would that disturb what's going on right now in the states?

Drew Simmons

00:39:52.130 - 00:41:23.900

I don't think it would disturb anything.

You know, I think, you know, I think an outdoor rec, a national OREC office, would be an incredibly positive thing, if only to provide potentially a bit a way to fund those state offices to direct some funding and help alert them to funding that's coming their way or to those state OBAs or whatever it is.

I think in most states, even Luis, when Luis was in Colorado doing incredible work there, he would always say it was an office of one and a budget of none. And I think. And he had probably the biggest outdoor recreation office in the country.

You know, I think people are really bootstrapping this, trying to make it work.

You know, I do think, you know, as far as a national office goes, you know, one thing you learn from sitting in policy conversations is at some point everybody's going to look around the table and say, all right, well, who brought the money? You know, because none of this happens without budget.

And, you know, as much as we all might love that idea of a national OREC office, where's that money going to come from? And right now, that is not going to come from nowhere. It's probably going to come at the expense of something else.

So I think it's an important conversation to have. I would be very supportive of it.

But I think more importantly, I think the vision that Luis has of a 50 state strategy, and maybe that's through the federal government or maybe it's somehow through something else, is an idea worth chasing down.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:41:24.520 - 00:41:54.470

Well, to change the conversation a little.

Bit, you wrote this great piece for me in the grassroots Outdoor alliance magazine, Grassroots Voices, which you helped create initially, and it was available in print at the Connect show in Reno this week. And in it, you made this really bold and very positive statement.

It's one I wholeheartedly agree with and I think needs to be shouted out by everyone in this industry, and that's. That America needs more public lands, not less. So let's talk about that a little bit.

Drew Simmons

00:41:55.110 - 00:45:58.240

Yeah, you know, I think that piece really stemmed from another piece I wrote for you a couple years ago about, called Are We Even Friends? About the relationship between conservation and outdoor recreation.

And you know, just as a quick summary of that story, that was about another Jackson Hole news writer, Todd Wilkinson, who had gone on to live in southern Bowes, south or southwest Montana, and is an environmental writer. And he had written a piece called Enough.

And it was about a glamping resort or proposed glamping resort on the Gallatin river south of Bozeman that had run a full page ad that said outdoor recreation creates conservation. And, and had a photo of a woman, you know, cradling a little piece of grass in her hands with a young boy next to her.

And anyway, that, that really set Todd off. You know, he, he, he really called BS on the whole thing that outdoor recreation creates conservation.

And you know, it, it, for me, it, it kind of stung because I had really lived most of my life in the outdoor industry at least half believing that that was true. But when I sat down and really started thinking about it, I had some doubts.

And when I started looking around at other people in the outdoor recreation, I sort of started to realize that, you know, if you asked 10, 10 people in the outdoor industry, you know, how are we doing in conservation? They'd probably say, you know, nine out of 10 would say we're doing great.

But if you ask 10 people in the conservation space how outdoor recreation is doing, almost all of them would, would be pretty meh about, about the whole thing.

I mean, I think there's, there's, it's important to understand that dynamic and it's important to acknowledge that when you say outdoor recreation creates conservation outcomes, that there is no scientific data to prove that we don't, we don't have an equation where six pounds of Outdoor recreation equals one ounce of conservation. Like, we just don't have that math. However, we all know a person or two that has had that happen.

So there is 100% reason to believe that outdoor recreation does create conservation in at least a few places.

And when I wrote this piece for you for Grassroots Stories, really the motivation, what was, yes, the headline is, America needs more public lands, not less. But the subhead is really, we need, as an outdoor recreation industry to figure out how we can create conservation. We have to.

It is an imperative for industry and for public lands that we figure out that we identify the ways where we are creating conservation outcomes. And if we're not creating conservation outcomes, we need to change what we're doing. I think that that's.

That, to me, was the big idea in this piece, that, that we can't. We can't run away from this idea of outdoor recreation creates conservation anymore because, you know, yes, we don't have any data to prove it.

I'm like, let's make the data. Let's make it a reality, because we need to have more public lands. We need more people on our side.

And to have more people on our side, we need them to truly, truly care about these natural places. And honestly, if you want people to care about natural places, you have to show it to them. You have to get them in those places.

You have to let them experience it, and. And you have to do it again, and you have to connect the dots for them. And I really think that that's. That sort of is.

Is, you know, the man on the moon mission for the outdoor industry in the next couple of years is. Is recognizing, you know, number one, is this a fight you're willing to do?

And if it's not a fight you're willing to do, then you need to recognize that maybe you're just a company that makes outdoor things. You're not really an out.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:45:59.090 - 00:46:30.680

Yeah. And this is always, you know, this is where we're at, I think, especially under fire, right? Is we. We have this great shield.

We can use outdoor recreation. It's a $1.2 trillion industry. Right.

We can use this economic argument all the time, and it's there.

And the argument no one seems to want to make but really does need to be made is that wild places, other species, natural ecosystems, they have a right to exist completely on their own. And we should be advocating for that as well. Beyond just that, they're a place to play.

Drew Simmons

00:46:32.840 - 00:50:03.220

I am with you a thousand percent. I think you actually were the one who suggested I Read Half Earth a couple years ago.

You know, and you know, the 30 by 30 movement in the United States is honestly, it's so important. This is the other side of the coin to climate change.

Climate change, yes, it's fucking with your skiing and yes, it's flooding your basement, but it's also causing species to move north. It's accelerating extinction around the globe. 30 by 30 is not a theory. This is a very real situation.

And I think when you, after I wrote, wrote that piece for you about our Weave and friends about conservation, outdoor recreation, I really started looking around and paying attention to the 30 by 30 movement. And I applauded when the Biden administration added 30 by 30 as one of their first executive orders. 12 days in.

Of course, when the next president comes along, it gets erased because executive orders, that's what happens. Biden signed a bunch, but erased a bunch. Trump signed a bunch and erased a bunch of. But 30 by 30 is here.

I mean, it is something that exists in numerous states. I think it's in 12 states and 190 countries. I personally would love to see the outdoor industry broadly embrace 30 by 30 in a bigger way.

I think it's not just a moral imperative, but it's also be incredibly helpful to know, okay, well, this is, you know, 30 by 30 or.

And that which also includes 50 by 50, you know, conserving 50% of public lands and waters by 2050, then we can know then the NIMBYs, you can have a conversation with the NIMBYs when you know what the 50 are that are going to stay in the 50 are that can be used.

You know, I think it's a, it's a, it would be an incredibly valuable and time saving effort to have a conversation about where we should put things and where we should leave them alone. You know, I often say there's a lot of room between anywhere, anytime and not here, not now, not ever. And let's have that conversation about it.

I think, like I said, this idea of outdoor recreation and conservation being these monolithic things that we're not allowed to sort of break into is really, I think, hurting our ability to have meaningful conversations and is oversimplifying some topics that we do need to have a little bit more technical conversations about. You know, 30 by 30 is incredibly important. You know, I'm proud that my state of Vermont is one of the states that has advocated for it.

I've testified on behalf of 30 by 30 a couple different times. And, you know, it's something that here, you know, we have A long tradition of conservation.

We have something called Vermont conservation design, which really provides a lot of the framework, but it's a fascinating process and it's a messy one. And I think people are, they want to have this easy button for everything. And 30 by 30 is not going to be that. But that's, that's the.

To answer Your question, Doug, 30 by 30 is the answer to, you know, natural places should exist for their own value, you know. Yeah. Because if at a certain point, you know, it's going to be our lives that are on the line, not just the plants and animals.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:50:03.780 - 00:50:23.200

Yeah. I mean, but here's the thing. Conservation is, you know, no one is looked down on more than the environmentalist. The conservationist. Right.

The dirty hippie. It's always a tough sell. It always seems to lose just the idea of conservation when it comes to, you know, voting even.

So, which is why, which is why.

Drew Simmons

00:50:23.200 - 00:51:41.830

I mean, which is 100% why outdoor recreation and conservation need each other so much right now. I mean, it's funny that you say that, like nobody refers themselves and an environmentalist anymore, like they're, they're conservationists.

And outdoor recreation has now become, for some people, this sort of safe tag, you know, because you can, you can advocate for outdoor recreation and, and achieve some conservation outcomes.

And we have this thing happening in Vermont right now called the Vellamont Trail, which is a 500 mile trail that will basically go from Massachusetts to Canada and connect a series of, of, of already existing mountain bike network areas with the single track trail and hut system. And as part of that, that's going to have the ability to create conservation for more than 200,000 acres of land near that trail.

And it's the outdoor recreation component that's opening that door to that conversation.

And I think that that's, like I said, outdoor recreation has to really, writ large, has to really embrace the importance of conservation to everything we do. And conservation has to embrace that.

Those, those people on the other side of the aisle that are making money doing these things are important to them as well because they can open a lot of doors.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:51:42.150 - 00:51:54.230

And, you know, you're a PR person. So, so how would you sell, how would you sell the idea of 30 by 30?

You know, how would you get this across that, you know, it won't be a losing idea all the time or idea that people just kick to the side.

Drew Simmons

00:51:55.270 - 00:53:48.490

I mean, it's, it's a great question.

I think, you know, persistence and simplicity is always the key with pr and, you know, it's, I I think with this specific PR purpose, I mean it's, it's, it's, it's a full scale assault. I mean you've got to go with the broad based message, but you've really got to try to start turning people one at a time. I'm amazed.

I mean, I'm amazed.

I mean with my friends who are mountain bikers or skiers or anglers and I'll mention 30 by 30 people and the lack of awareness around 30x30 is fairly mind boggling. Like not many people know what it is.

I have a friend who was working in the Department of Interior the last four years, obviously not working there anymore, but I asked him about 30x30 in the department and he said, you know, they were working on these amazing large, you know, conservation projects, but Nobody ever mentioned 30 by 30 by name. You know, I think there's something to be aware of out there.

I mean, even though when I say 12 states have 30 by 30 initiatives, there's also numerous states including Utah and North Dakota and Nebraska that have anti 30 by 30 legislation in place, you know, that are, that are basically that use this sort of false talking point that it was a land grab, you know, stop the federal land grab, you know, and it's, you know, the idea that I think is perfect for you, Doug, is, is this idea that conservation and 30 by 30 is really going to be the punk rock movement of the next 10 years, you know, because as as public lands are converted to private, they're going to the man. And conservation, making them for the people is about the most punk rock thing I can think of. So.

So you're welcome to run with that as much as you want.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:53:48.730 - 00:53:51.530

I am all there. You are my PR person after all.

Drew Simmons

00:53:52.650 - 00:53:53.450

Exactly.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:53:54.970 - 00:54:20.760

Leading into that, I think on a metaphorical level you're a cancer survivor. I know it's been a long time, but I know from my own cancer journey that your sense of your own mortality sticks with you no matter what.

And it gives you a lot of clarity in the way you see the world and your place in it. How do you, has that experience informed you and your ideas on conservation and the planet and being here or not being here in the long term, I.

Drew Simmons

00:54:20.760 - 00:56:26.920

Mean, you know, I mean, I think you'll agree when you're, you know, laying in a hospital bed, you know, minutes away from finding out whether you're going to get a colostomy or not, you know, your priorities start to change.

You know, I mean I had a, you know, a diagnosis of stage 3B colon cancer when I was a young parent with an emerging business and was terrified that I was going to lose everything and that, you know, not to mention lose my life, you know, and, and I think, you know, anybody who has been through the cancer journey knows that your priorities change and, and that, you know, your, your willingness to, to do certain things changes. I, I think when it comes to my work and to my approach to conservation.

I think one, one of the things that happens when you go into remission and you get a few years and you don't have to think about it every second of every day is that you start wanting to squeeze every moment like a lemon. You want it.

You want every moment to be with your family, for your health, for your business, you know, for, you know, for your, you know, you want every. You want too much out of every moment.

And I think as you get even farther beyond it, you start realizing that you just have to make sure whatever moment you're in, you're making the most of it.

And I think the cancer experience has created a willingness in me to keep working on topics that are important to me, regardless of whether or not there's any money coming.

I mean, I've spent hundreds of hours just Rabbit holing on 30 by 30 and on outdoor recreation and conservation and writing journal entries, not knowing where any of that's going to go. But, you know, there's a chance that I'll be able to use that somehow, somewhere, someday.

And I think that's, you know, that's, that's what those type of sort of scrapes with death will do for you, is they'll allow you to really lean in and put that extra, that extra oomph into something with an uncertain return.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:56:28.520 - 00:56:55.650

And maybe this isn't an argument just for pure conservation too, right? There's so many people who've suffered in different ways, be it cancer or mental illness or other scrapes with death.

Can we somehow all get together and come to a realization that we can preserve life and the planet and things beyond us? Right?

Drew Simmons

00:56:57.010 - 00:58:23.480

Yeah. I mean, it's just kind of a. Yes, I agree completely with what you said.

I mean, I think the idea of coming together, getting people outside, coming together, sharing an experience, I just don't think that even the people that we disagree with the most are going to be that unaffected by that experience that we can't have an important conversation. And I do think, you know, we're at a place right now where it's not just that we have to be willing to say certain things.

We have to be willing to listen, and we have to be willing to have those conversations face to face. You know, like I mentioned earlier about, was the pandemic actually a bad thing for the outdoor industry?

I think it accelerated our own digital lives as well.

You know, I mean, we still have this tendency to scream online, on our blogs, on our Facebook posts, where what we really need to do is we need to have, like an actual conversation at a. At a. At a. With your indoor voice, with somebody that we disagree with and really try to point out that we are all sharing this same planet.

And, you know, we can do things like preserve 30% of the world by 2030 and 20 and 50% by 2050. That will be good for everybody. I think that's just a really important conversation and something that certainly is on my mind all the time.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:58:24.520 - 00:58:44.630

I hate to move the conversation on, but we're starting to run out of time. And I did want to give you a plug for one thing you're working on right now that I do think is important in the outdoor world.

And I know you're working with the Switchback Shift show that is coming up. Why did you want to work with that show in particular? And what's exciting and different about it?

Drew Simmons

00:58:46.070 - 01:01:04.780

You know, I'm super excited about Switchback, and I know a lot of people are as well.

And I think looking back, I've been working with them for a little over a year, and the chance to be a part of getting an event off the ground that was going to bring the outdoor industry together was really one that I couldn't pass up. I mean, I had been working with Grassroots Outdoor alliance for several years prior to that.

And I love and adore and respect that organization, their mission, and the people who are there. And it was an incredibly hard decision. That said, I really want. I mean, the outdoor industry, I think we're in the same boat.

The outdoor industry has given us so much. It's given us our careers, it's given us our friends, it's given us our culture. And I see that slipping away for a lot of different reasons.

And I think the chance to come at this with a fresh start, Switchback has a real simplicity to it. It has a clean slate for a bunch of reasons.

And one thing we haven't sort of talked about that you and I have talked about in the past was Outdoor Retailer returning to Utah after moving to Colorado on behalf of the outdoor industry's request. And I think when Outdoor Retailer went back to Utah, that really left a bad flavor in a lot of people's mouths.

And it's tough to pick trade show venue states by your politics. On the other hand, when you made a stink about moving it away for one reason, and then you just forget the whole thing and go back.

I've talked to numerous people about it, and I know that it has been a thing.

And I'm not saying that's why Switchback is taking off, but I do know that I think not having, you know, not having those old associations is going to make it easier for Switchback to really become what it wants to be. And I think I'm super excited that people are making Switchback their own. They're bringing their own ideas, they're bringing their own initiatives.

I mean, the rock fight is going to do a live broadcast. It's going to be the event of the year. It's going to be incredible. We're all going to get tattoos. It's going to be fantastic.

Doug Schnitzspahn

01:01:05.260 - 01:01:10.460

So do you think trade shows might be starting to become a thing again for the outdoor industry?

Drew Simmons

01:01:11.740 - 01:02:18.040

I mean, it's funny you say that. I think they have to be.

I think if they don't become a thing, then we're just going to become a subpage of Amazon.com, and I don't think that's anything that anybody wants. You know, the outdoor experience is an analog experience.

It's walking into a retailer, it's touching a piece of clothes, it's climbing into a tent, it's taking that thing outside.

And those things, those conversations, especially now with all the challenging conversations about tariffs and, you know, those are conversations you need to have face to face. And trade shows are an important place to have those things.

And, you know, I think you're going to see a real significant rebound in interest for trade events. Not just Switchback, but other events, too.

People want to get out, they want to talk to people, they want to hear and learn what other people are doing. I know, I do. I know. I'm super excited about Switchback in a couple of weeks.

Doug Schnitzspahn

01:02:18.280 - 01:02:50.820

Drew, there's so much more we could have talked about. A lot of it was pretty silly. We were going to talk about telemark skiing. We're going to talk about Hooked on the Outdoors magazine.

Maybe we were going to reference the insane text thread that we're on, but I really loved the conversation we had. I really loved leveraging what you're really passionate about and knowledgeable about.

And I really appreciate your voice being out there in this space and you advocating for conservation and recreation and passion for the world.

Drew Simmons

01:02:51.790 - 01:03:34.020

My hope with my advocacy right now is to infect other people with some of that positivity and energy so that they can lean in where they want to. You know, I think, you know, it's like the old, the old line about how do you.

How do you eat an elephant one bite at a time, you know, I mean, you just. There's never, there's never a great time to start, but there's always an excuse for not starting.

And I think if it's something that you want to do, you have to embrace the fact you're new at it and give it a shot.

Like I said, I hope some of this has been important to some people who are listening and that they can maybe get some takeaways and go lean in in their own communities.

Doug Schnitzspahn

01:03:35.059 - 01:03:48.080

Well, if people do want to get in touch with you, if they want to read some of the fantastic stuff that you've been writing, if they want to hire you, what's the best way for people to find you or get. In touch with you, I mean, really.

Drew Simmons

01:03:48.080 - 01:03:57.520

Hit me up on LinkedIn is the place to go. I mean, I still do publish things occasionally on WickedOutdoorsy.com, but those are the best places to find me.

Doug Schnitzspahn

01:03:57.600 - 01:04:04.480

And finally, I'll give you the question that everyone gets at the end of this podcast, and that is simply, what gives you hope?

Drew Simmons

01:04:05.920 - 01:06:26.390

So I have two answers to that. I mean, the first answer is my children, of course. Right? I mean, I think, as you know, I'm somebody who loves to laugh out loud.

And nothing makes me laugh out loud more than my kids. I mean, they're funny and amazing adults. My daughter, who now has a master's degree in public health, amazing.

When she was probably eight or nine years old, she had heard me, I think, talking about the struggles of starting my business and how I was laying awake in the middle of the night still staring at the ceiling. And so she came in and she put a bunch of Post it notes on the ceiling above my bed, saying, you can do this. You got this.

And all these notes of positivity so that when I was staring at the ceiling at 2am I would be inspired. And that's always stuck with me and my son, who just graduated in advertising and marketing.

He and I, during the pandemic, designed a disc golf course through our neighborhood, down the abandoned roads that had tumbleweeds blowing down them just because we needed something to do. And like, the tagline in designing that course was trying to find, you know, natural obstacles to throw to.

And, you know, there's always something there if you just look hard enough was the tagline for that. And it's something that I, that I always think about when I think of him. And, you know, both of them are on the job hunt right now.

So hit me up if you're hiring in marketing in the in the Northeast or public health in the Portland area. But honestly, what really gives me hope is the outdoor industry.

I mean, I have never, ever met a collection of more inspiring, wonderful people than I have in the outdoor industry. And I know it's hard, and I know business is challenging, but trust me, these are the people that you want on your side in the trenches.

Nobody gets things done like people in the outdoor industry. And I'm so thankful and appreciative to be able to call, you know, people like you and Colin and my staff and all my clients.

I'm so grateful to be able to work with these people. And I'm confident that we can do this.

You know, we can bring outdoor recreation and conservation together, and we can do the right thing for the planet and for public lands together.

Doug Schnitzspahn

01:06:27.030 - 01:07:01.900

Well said, Drew. Thank you so much. I can't wait till next time. See you soon.

Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight llc.

Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com to learn more about Drew Simmons, head to his LinkedIn page or go to palemorningmedia.com Our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Genser. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some. Thanks for listening.