Walking The Path: What Adventure And Cancer Can Teach Us
- colin7931
- May 6
- 42 min read
Today Doug opens the container with adventurer Eric Larsen.
Doug begins the show by sharing how his life was shaped by his cancer diagnosis in the fall of 2024. A diagnosis that has not only reshaped his perspective on life but also deepened his appreciation for our beautiful planet.
Doug is then joined by polar adventurer (not explorer) Eric Larson, who has also battled cancer. Eric's extensive travels in some of the planet’s most remote regions provide a unique lens through which he is better able to examine resilience and the healing power of nature.
Together, Doug and Eric explore the connections between their personal battles, the unique challenges of parenting, and the broader environmental crises facing our planet.
Sign up for NEWS FROM THE FRONT, Rock Fight's weekly newsletter by heading to www.rockfight.co and clicking Join The Mailing List.
Please follow and subscribe to Open Container and give us a 5 star rating and a written review wherever you get your podcasts.
Send your feedback, questions, and comments to myrockfight@gmail.com.
Click Here To Listen On Your Favorite Podcast App
Or Just Click The Player Below!
Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:04.160 - 00:07:15.974
Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzspahn. I'm a journalist, writer, and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I have slathered myself in the mud of Sicilian volcanoes.
On this podcast, we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Let's get some A cancer diagnosis does not come as quickly as you may think. There are far too many tests.
There's far too much worry in between the time when you feel the first symptom and you finally get that dreaded diagnosis. I went through this experience last year and am continuing to go through treatment for lymphoma.
Months later, I am still fighting and waiting for new diagnoses. It is a difficult journey, but as many will tell you, it's one that opens your eyes.
On the September day before, I was going in for a surgical biopsy for a lump on my neck. After months of not knowing if what I had was benign or deadly, there was a light rain in the morning and sun in the afternoon.
I lay in a hammock in my yard and watched the birds. There was a gang of ravens, birds whom I've been told it's possible for humans to learn to communicate with, to literally talk to.
They remember every good deed.
When my father passed away from cancer just a few months before my diagnosis, someone told me to listen to the signs in nature, to listen to the birds, that his voice would be there. My son, very notably, is an accomplished birder.
Ever since he was young, he began cataloging the birds he sees, and now he has a life list bigger than that of most people who have spent a lifetime birding. I love to go out and watch them with him. Not for the same reason, however. He loves the life list.
He wants to expand the catalog of what he has observed, to see the wide range of life that's out there in the skies and the branches. Me, I like more of a broad picture. I like to know how the birds relate to where they are, how they fit into an ecosystem.
I'm not as concerned about the list, of course. My son's interest in birds goes far deeper than the list.
He wants to understand the way they move within the seasons, the way they understand the world in a way that we are blind to. And he loves to learn their songs. He identifies them even when he can't see them.
And he is going to work to save some space on this earth for birds and people to continue being together. Back to the day before the surgery. Laying in the hammock, I saw a strange bird that I've never seen before.
It landed on the fence and looked me up and down. It had all the markings of a flicker, but something was different, much different.
I stood there with it for a moment and then I got my son to identify it. He told me it was a leucistic flicker, a very rare version, perhaps completely unique. Was it a sign? I wasn't sure.
What I did know was that it was a moment of singular beauty, of looking into the world and seeing something new and different and rare. I said, having cancer makes you rethink things, see them differently.
When I was going through chemotherapy, my brother came to sit with me for a treatment in the cancer center room where an ivy dripped healing poison into me for seven or eight hours. I looked out the window to the mountains. I just wanted to be up there.
So after treatment, we drove out to a spot off Flagstaff Road in the Flatirons where you can stand on bare rock and look at the snow capped Indian Peaks stretching all along the horizon. With a giant gulf of emptiness below you.
All it took for me to appreciate life. The moment was being here and breathing. Our planet can heal us. Our planet is also ill. Cancer is a funny thing.
Really all it is is cells that won't die. They want to live. They want to survive. So it is, I guess, that we as a species want to survive as we destroy the place that nurtures us.
This is a very easy and simple metaphor, of course, but it's true.
If we understand the ways we can fight cancer in our own bodies, I do think maybe we can understand a better way of looking at our place in the world. This planet is too beautiful to die. And I've seen the sickness far too often.
I miss the incredible gnarled and solemn white bark pines that used to crown the gravelly range and its meadows of wildflowers, now gone due to climate change.
I've skied the Valle Blanche glacier in Chamonix and seen how it is receding so far back that stairs need to be built down to reach the spot where you leave the glacier to catch a train back into town. There's an incredible sadness to all those now exposed cliffs, and yet I have also seen the world heal.
I have seen lodgepole pines growing back out of clearcuts in Island Park, Idaho, seeing the waters around New Jersey's sandy Hook where I grew up, that were vilely polluted when I was a child, getting cleaner, bringing in dolphins and some of the once diverse wildlife that used to fill this now urban place. That's all to say healing is possible. But it takes work, it takes acknowledgement, it takes effort.
And sometimes it takes seeing a sign like a leucistic flicker and knowing that this rare beauty is in our hands. My guest today has fought cancer and has seen the far reaches of the planet and how they've been affected by climate change.
Erik Larson has spent the past 25 years traveling in some of the most remote and extreme environments on the planet. To date, Eric has completed more north and South Pole expeditions than any other American in history.
Including the first ever summer expedition to the North Pole as well as a world record expedition to the South Pole Pole, North Pole and top of Mount Everest all within a 365 day period. Eric regularly leads last degree expeditions to both the north and south poles as well as a month long Greenland ice cap Traverse.
In January 2021, Eric was diagnosed with stage 3B colorectal cancer and after a difficult two year battle is currently ned no evidence of disease. He is writing a book detailing his cancer expedition. Now let's open the container with Eric Larson. Okay, here I am with a friend, a legend and a fellow fighter on the battle against a shitty disease. Eric, it's really good to have you here.
Eric Larsen
00:07:16.062 - 00:07:18.250
It's great to be here. How are you doing, Doug?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:07:19.380 - 00:07:32.920
Okay, I'm okay. And let's get into some deep stuff right away.
I wanted to ask you what is the most frightened you've ever felt out in the wild with all the things you've done?
Eric Larsen
00:07:33.300 - 00:09:30.014
Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question.
First of all, I know you said okay and that's a really nuanced answer and it's an easy one to say when things aren't always okay and they're always not okay.
But jumping into it, following your lead, you know, I think I'm a pretty, I wouldn't say I'm a nervous guy overall, but I am always a little kind of like wary of things.
I think probably, you know, one of the most nervous as I've most nervous I've been was probably around 20 years ago when we were doing our first North Pole expedition and there was just so much uncertain uncertainty surrounding the trip.
And we were having all these close encounters with polar bears and we were just going into unknown terrain and these conditions that were just constantly changing. And it's really hard to put in context in today's time because we have so much information about the world and adventure and all these things.
But back then we were doing a summer expedition to the North Pole and we didn't have people that we could talk to and say, hey, what were the conditions are like, what are what, what gear should we use? What, what techniques should we do? And so we were just traveling in this really unknown way towards an uncertain outcome.
And I had gotten sick in Russia, you know, just some bad flu. And I remember just kind of skiing along and just crying and just being like, man, I am never getting out of this place.
Like, I am done and just kind of feeling very overwhelmed and, and, and yeah, just scared. So I've been in a lot of other scary situations since then and in all sorts of different places and styles, but just in a different way.
Speaker B
00:09:30.102 - 00:09:37.358
But you experience that kind of, that Arctic loneliness, right, of being on your own and no one out there?
Eric Larsen
00:09:37.414 - 00:10:48.240
Yeah, I mean, I'm, I mean that's, that's the whole, that's my whole goal. I mean that's the whole pursuit of my life is to find the places where few if any people have traveled.
And so, and that's where honestly I'm most comfortable. You know, we joke about this all the time at my house. My wife, who's an extrovert, always has this joke with me.
And sometimes it's easier for me being on a polar expedition in the middle of nowhere for a couple months than it is going to a party with a bunch of people that I don't know. You know, I'm unfortunately pretty awkward in those situations.
So, you know, it's, it's again, these questions I love, but I have a hard time answering in just the three word answer because there's so much nuance to all this stuff for me, especially as someone who has thought about this and pursued this path for so long. But, you know, the loneliness at times is very difficult. You know, I've dealt with so many different situations.
In one hand, it's easier to be on your own and just worrying about yourself. In the other hand, other times I've been in situations where it's really beneficial to have, you know, my family back home supporting me.
Speaker B
00:10:48.280 - 00:10:48.852
Right.
Eric Larsen
00:10:49.016 - 00:11:19.900
And vice versa. And that changes over a couple month expedition as well.
And so it's just, you know, my life, my expeditions are just a roller coaster of emotions and physical hardships and uncertainty. And you know, at one, at one sense it seems totally arbitrary as well.
And you know, I stopped asking myself the question of why a long time ago, but I think it's a normal question to want to ask.
Speaker B
00:11:20.280 - 00:11:31.140
Well, one thing I find interesting from what you said is in the past 20 years, even the world's gotten closer, right. It's gotten less remote, harder to find those places.
Eric Larsen
00:11:32.360 - 00:13:18.414
Yeah, it's so different. It's so different and you don't notice it on any given day when you're just moving along. We're all in the same world. We're super connected.
But when you kind of stop.
And for me, I have these specific adventures that happened in certain decades and years, and they're a real good yardstick to measure some of that change. And, you know, one of the things is just the technology that we use to navigate. You know, GPS was kind of just coming online in the late 90s.
The satellite technology was pretty antiquated as well in terms of communication. We had something that was called a BGAN and you could just program like 14 messages. And so you' turn it on and turn a dial to like number one.
And one would be like all okay. You know, 13 is like, there's a polar bear eating my leg. You know, come get, come get us. And that's just one aspect of those trips.
You know, the, the amount of information that exists in so many different ways from equipment, from the community that's involved in these different pursuits, and how you're able to connect with people. Just the casual kind of knowledge that you can gain off of social media.
And so I, I jo, when I guide, I call myself like a World War I vet because, you know, when I started doing adventures, it was just for the sake of doing adventures. Nobody was watching me, nobody was sponsoring me. I was just curious about the world around me. And I wanted to be outside and have cool experiences.
And so it was a very old school compared to now.
And, you know, it's still an adventure, it's still the same, but it's when you kind of stop and, and look back, you see the changes pretty distinctly.
Speaker B
00:13:18.572 - 00:13:28.538
So to look at it from the other side, we talked about the frightening moments, the scary parts of those. I mean, what have been the moments of greatest joy for you being out there?
Eric Larsen
00:13:28.674 - 00:14:44.910
I'm still trying to figure out what those are. So if you have any suggestions, let me know. I mean, I call a lot of my trips long, freezing cold sufferfests, and that's pretty much what they are.
And the joy for me, I mean, I love being out in these places where few people are. I mean, that I love wilderness. I love feeling like a small person in a big place. You know, as crazy as it sounds, I love feeling insignificant.
And then I think, you know, it's it's like a lot of other people who are kind of pushing kind of the limits of adventure. It's, it's a lot in the planning and preparation. And for me, my joy comes in the discipline of it, of being able to make all the right moves.
I call it like a chess game. And so I have to be, you know, on an expedition that's two months.
I have to be disciplined with everything that I do, do the same thing in the same ways for days and weeks and months. And then when I get to that point, like 50 days in or whatever, and I have the ability to keep going, that's very empowering.
Until that time and actually during. And the laughter, it totally sucks.
Speaker B
00:14:45.570 - 00:14:54.110
And it's very different than a mountain expedition. Right. Where you're dealing with a lot of monotony. Right. Day after day, when you're doing a polar expedition.
Eric Larsen
00:14:54.450 - 00:15:43.610
Yeah. I mean, very quickly I say you come up against yourself, and so you can be a big asset to yourself or you can be your own worst enemy.
And so you see all of your, your mistakes get paraded right in front of you. You know, all these things can have a really big impact on your physical ability to move. And time is not necessarily your friend.
You know, just skiing for hours and days, basically looking at nothing is mind numbing on a good day. And it's a, it's a challenge. It's a. It's a really hard challenge. I still have, like, nightmares that I'm in Antarctica and I'm in a white.
And that's like one of my least favorite things.
Speaker B
00:15:44.070 - 00:15:52.590
Yeah. I can't imagine the mental capacity it takes to deal with that day after day to kind of be in a constant vertigo. Right?
Eric Larsen
00:15:52.710 - 00:16:53.672
Yeah. I mean, I think, yes, it's hard to imagine. It's so different.
I would say, you know, as an alpine skier, I'm sure you've been on the mountain where you've gotten caught in a white out and, you know, it's very hard to see it. And that's very similar. Usually you have some sort of reference or comes in and out, and it doesn't last forever. So you have a little bit.
And I would say, as you know, with all the other things in life, you know, people have an incredible ability to overcome obstacles and you can, you know, be in a situation and find a way. For me, I always call myself the weakest link in everything I do.
And so what I just try to do is put myself in a situation where I don't have a choice but to be successful. You Know, and back in the day, that was like, hey, we would do an expedition where we couldn't get rescued.
Like, there was, you know, a month of a trip where we couldn't get picked up. There was no helicopter or plane that could reach us. And, you know, when I was younger, I was. That's what I wanted.
I wanted the hardest thing possible.
Speaker B
00:16:53.856 - 00:17:08.360
Do you think there are places left on the planet that we can still explore that are still untouched by people that are, you know, or have we lost the whole ability to even be, you know, the kind of explorers we think of in the classical sense anymore?
Eric Larsen
00:17:08.440 - 00:19:17.612
That's a really good question and something I think about a lot. You know, I call myself a polar adventurer, not a polar explorer. Just for the reason of the fact that, you know, we have mapped the whole world.
There's satellite images of pretty. Pretty much everything. And so I think in that historical sense, there is no place left to go.
But there are all these unique ways to string together adventures in different styles, in different sports, in different timelines. I think just the simple act of going into a place as an individual and experiencing it for yourself is exploration. And I'm a huge believer in that.
And just any kind of wilderness or outdoor travel, I think, is important. So I hesitate to say that, you know, no, we can explore in the truest sense of the words. I would agree with that statement.
That being said, I think exploration is inherent to us as human beings, and being in nature is also an important part of us as human beings. And so putting those things together, I still think has some value.
And there's still this kind of leading edge of human adventure that exists right now. And you have some of this with the FKTs. Clearly, in mountaineering and skiing, there's still first descents and first descents.
There's, you know, some of these big crossings that still exist in different seasons. And, you know, I still believe in those types of challenges, even if they are more kind of on the record side of things and a little more gimmicky.
Sometimes you just need an excuse to be able to do something that's interesting to you and provide a challenge.
I mean, a marathon is just an arbitrary distance, and we launch into that, or people launch into that challenge all the time and see a great sense of accomplishment for that. And so I would agree that there are still a lot of adventures yet to be had out there.
Speaker B
00:19:17.796 - 00:19:30.572
But it must have been wild, right? To be these people who are going to spaces where there was no map, no gps, no idea of what was there it's hard for us. We've lost it, right?
Eric Larsen
00:19:30.596 - 00:21:06.120
It's. We. We have lost it.
And I, again, that's where I think I came into, you know, kind of professional adventuring right at the start of, kind of the more modern era of, of adventure, kind of at the end of exploration, truest, true exploration. And so I still, I touched a little bit of that and of course, grew up on all the stories. But, yeah, it is so hard. You know, it's.
It's that uncertainty, it's that unknown. It' planning. It's time.
I mean, you look at, you know, dedicating three or four years of your life on this one particular task and environment and this, the scale of the Earth, when you're traveling like that, it is hard to comprehend. And we're in it. This is almost like a mantra that I say to myself every morning when I wake up. It's not the past, it's the present.
But I still look at those adventures and find inspiration from them, information about how I can conduct my own adventures in terms of, you know, even something as simple, not just the gear, because the gear has obviously changed, but it's somewhat similar. But, you know, the team dynamics, leadership, how, how they operated, how they organized everything. So it's, it's interesting.
I still think there, there is value in those and, and I love looking back at them. I may be a bit of a dinosaur in that space overall, but I'm okay with that.
Speaker B
00:21:06.900 - 00:21:24.920
Yeah, I mean, you look at the. Right, you look at the. You're saying, like, leadership. Look at the Shackleton expedition, for example. Right.
Like, there's a lot we can learn from how they were able to manage and survive. That doesn't apply, I guess, to being off the map. Right. But can apply to running a good office, maybe, or something.
Eric Larsen
00:21:25.220 - 00:22:14.698
Yeah, I mean, it's a cheesy corporate speech, but it's true. We have.
We live in a society that's full of cushions and guardrails and, you know, the role of risk and challenge, both physical and mental, are less and less a part of what we do. And, you know, as a result, I think we do have some challenges to our society.
And so understanding that these things have value, that there are some of these concepts that translate to our normal lives that we can emulate in some way on a smaller scale. Some of these things, I think, can help us quite, quite effectively in today's age. And, you know, my son, he's.
He's 12, he's in sixth grade, they're reading Shackleton Right now.
Speaker B
00:22:14.754 - 00:22:15.290
Oh, that's great.
Eric Larsen
00:22:15.330 - 00:22:53.930
And I just. Yeah, it's awesome.
And I had to find out from one of my, his friends, I was like, and we've, we've read it together and, and we're reading another book to. So we read all this stuff and.
But I messaged his teacher today and I was like, hey, no pressure, but I would love to come in and do a Q and A or talk or compare and contrast or, you know, open ended type of a thing.
Just for the things that we're talking about is there are a lot of these things that we could learn from history, obviously, and very specifically these types of adventures that occurred before us.
Speaker B
00:22:54.100 - 00:23:06.370
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a book everyone should read. I think it's one of the greatest stories ever told, really. A book that everyone should read.
The book, of course, is Endurance, about the Shackleton expedition.
Eric Larsen
00:23:07.110 - 00:23:37.562
Yeah.
And the crazy thing is though, There are about 30 other incredible stories of polar survival that don't get as much coverage that are equally, if not more epic, which is crazy. And so I find all those as a source of inspiration. But Shackleton, what a great story, what an amazing guy.
And again, just kind of comparing him to some of these other kind of polar people. In my personal career, I've taken a lot from that.
Speaker B
00:23:37.666 - 00:23:46.810
Are there some people, you know, current day explorers that you really look up to, that you've learned from, that have kind of passed the torch to you as well?
Eric Larsen
00:23:46.930 - 00:25:17.732
Yeah, I mean, I feel so lucky to be friends with a lot of my mentors. It's crazy.
Like I never, when I was a kid reading these books when I was in sixth, seventh and eighth grade, I could have, and just being like, oh man, I would love to do this. I could have never imagined that I would meet some of those people that were my own, that I looked up to.
And I had a lot of mentors that helped me out along the way too, you know, of the kind of existing polar adventures that are alive now. You know, Will Steger, who is an American who lives in Minnesota, is a friend of mine.
Paul Shirky, there's a Canadian, Richard Weber, who I know some Norwegians, Berg Oslin, Runa Galnis, you know, that are, that were kind of like 10 years ahead of me in my time, maybe a little bit, and real pioneers of the sport and done some of the hardest expeditions in history. You know, I, I could message those guys right now and be like, hey, how's it going? It's so cool. And I studied their books too.
I studied what they did. And I'm pretty excited. I'm heading to Europe this summer with my family. I'm gon meet Reinhold Messner, which I'm very excited about.
I mean, talk about a pioneer. I mean, people, when he climbed Everest, people didn't think without oxygen, People didn't think you could survive without oxygen at that altitude.
So, I mean, the amount of question marks that exist in all those people's lives and they still move forward towards that goal is incredible.
Speaker B
00:25:17.876 - 00:25:44.742
One of the great things I think about Reinhold too, and probably you've seen this in a lot of your other mentors, is also that, I mean, his.
The importance he put on ethics of doing it without oxygen, of saying that some peaks were secret, like sacred, like Mount Kailash and they shouldn't be climbed, that there's also this responsibility and we need to have good ethics when we're trying things no human has done before. Right?
Eric Larsen
00:25:44.846 - 00:26:26.350
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the ethics are definitely part of it.
It's definitely a more modern take because we're at a certain point it was just about survival or figuring out the world around. That being said, I think the ethics are even more important now than ever. The ethics, the rules, the aesthetic.
As we just like there's a rule in a marathon or 100 meter dash or a football game, you know, we need to be in these places where we can protect ourselves from ourselves and, and, and, and therefore, I think, like what you mentioned with Reinhold, those ethics and that style is even more important today than ever.
Speaker B
00:26:26.650 - 00:26:38.930
Absolutely. Now, to get on to, you know, mentoring as well, you're also engaged in a lot of guiding and mentoring. Can you tell us about the.
How do you guide people? What do you teach them? What goes on there?
Eric Larsen
00:26:39.050 - 00:31:13.026
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I started out way back in the day doing some whitewater guiding, and I was a dog musher guide.
And it was great because I got to go to a lot of places that I ever did, but I really felt, you know, especially with the whitewater and there's a place for everything. But I was just like, basically cooking fancy food and washing dishes every day.
And I don't have anything against that, but I just, I felt, I feel so connected to nature. I think again, they're coming back to this theme that I'll just kind of bore you to death with this, this value and adventure and being outside.
I just really believe in those down through my core. And you don't have to hit people over the head with it.
But, you know, I want to be in situations where we can enjoy these things and grow and learn and challenge ourselves. And so I kind of shifted more towards education after getting pretty burned out. A guy, I'm like, I'm never going to guide again.
But I did in 2008 guide a trip to the South Pole. And that really changed my perspective because it was a long enough trip where, you know, I wasn't the just the chief cook and bottle washer.
We had to really function as a team. I had to really focus a lot more on the team dynamics and the motivation as well as just the logistics and everything.
And that changed my perspect in a, in a really meaningful way and maybe not a popular way in terms of like where the money's at, but it's, it's more on this kind of self supported expedition style travel where it's very skilled and philosophical based.
I always say it's not only about the, the, the what we're doing, but also the why and the how and kind of leaving some room open for, you know, different styles and, and kind of providing a framework for people to understand this style of travel in these extreme environments. Self supported. You know, we don't have Sherpas, we're setting up our own tents.
We're, we're, you know, I cook one thing and I cook it really well and that's melted snow and I, and I, and I only cook it for me and the, the, you know, my clients cook, do all their stuff and, and it takes a lot of work to get them ready to be in this extreme environment. But my trips actually get easier over time.
Like I do this week training course and we spend three days in a cabin in Northern Minnesota and it's kind of practicing these things, going out, coming back, and then we do a little mini expedition and I just, it's so challenging the first few days of, of getting all this stuff going and it's usually, you know, 20, 30 below or more with the wind chill and then we head out on the ice and by the last day I'm just kind of skiing in the back taking pictures and it's amazing. And so it takes a lot of work to do those types of trips. It takes a lot of mental focus and knowledge, not just information.
But for me the rewards are greater because I'm able to share my knowledge and I'm also able to encourage those people to do their own adventures and say, hey, here's what I know right now and you could take what I do and my ego would say just do this and don't do anything else and ski to the north pole and be 100% safe and set a record or whatever. But, you know, everybody's different. They have different styles, different goals, different objectives.
And so that's a template that you can analyze your next goal and what your objectives are and then modify it as you need to. And I really enjoy that. And, you know, a lot of my clients, I just kind of keep in touch with.
We talk all the time, and they've got some adventure or they'll message me and not everybody, but, you know, it's pretty fun for me. And it's. And it's interesting, too, in this pursuit that I was like, man, I am never going to guide again.
I'm done with it to something that I really enjoy. I don't do it all year round, which makes it a little easier. I could.
I could have all sorts of trips all over the world, but I, you know, I have a few little things that I do, and. And I don't really advertise, and. And it's. It's a lot of fun for me, and I think it's a valuable experience.
It's definitely, you know, if you look at, like. Like the Seven Summits scene, where people are showing up and they have a bed with a mattress, it's different to that.
It's the polar opposite, quite honestly. And again, there's not as much money in it, but I think. And this is where I sound like the old World War I guy.
There's value in it, and there's value in that process. And I gotta shut up, because otherwise people just start tuning out. Because I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go for Magic Guy.
Speaker B
00:31:13.058 - 00:31:19.210
No, I don't think. But you also guide. You also guide trips, gravel biking, and you do stuff closer to home or.
Eric Larsen
00:31:19.910 - 00:32:50.760
You know, I have, like, crazy ideas every two seconds and. Yeah, I do. I love biking. I mean, I've. I think I said this to you.
I call myself the world's most boring person because when I was like, five or fifth grade or sixth grade, I fell in love with biking. And, you know, I'd always camped. And. And, you know, now, however many years later, I'm not going to say I still. I mean, I just was biking before.
We talked right now, and my son and I were talking about setting a tent up in our yard just to camp out during the school week. So, you know, I. It's there. There are a lot of opportunities. What I'm trying to do is stay away from. And it's A challenge because I'm a business.
You know, I run a business, and so the money is in more luxury and more service, and I like that. And I'm a huge fan of people getting outside in any capacity. But it's just your. I know from a guiding perspective, you're more of a servant than.
It's more of a service industry than an educational thing.
And so that's where I have to be really careful because I, I run a business and I want to make money and I need to make money to support my family, but I also have these ideals and these values that I try to keep in. And then I generally do the opposite thing every once in a while too.
Speaker B
00:32:51.460 - 00:32:54.300
So what's harder, climbing Everest or raising kids?
Eric Larsen
00:32:54.380 - 00:35:35.624
Well, climbing Everest isn't that hard overall, in my opinion, and raising kids isn't that crazy either. But, you know, it's a challenge. It's, you know, you're just in it. It's commitment. And I love both. But I do love being a d.
Someone who, you know, I had a whole crazy life. I don't know what year we first met, but I remember the good old days of or back in the day when I was in my 30s and you know, the mid 2000s and.
Or was amazing. And you know, I don't know if I ever slept during those four days. So I was older when I came into being a dad. And I just love, I love it.
It's amazing. It's, you know, a lot like guiding. It's a lot like a pol or expedition, you know, along. Maybe not so cold all the time, but it's a suffer fest.
The joys are maybe at the end when it's all said and done and, you know, I think it ties along with my, my guiding philosophy. I love watching these kids find their own groove and, and become their own persons. And I tell my kids, like, my job is for you to not need me.
I, you know, if there's one thing I learned in polar expeditions as well as cancer, the world goes on without you. You know, like, you're not, you're the, you're the most important character just to you.
And that's a real hard concept to grasp, or it's not hard to grasp, but it's, it's, it's frightening. And I think, you know, luckily or unluckily enough for me on expeditions, you know, I've spent literally years of my life, you know, I.
In a tent on expeditions. I mean, a couple years just in the Arctic and Antarctic alone. And you very Quickly see how you're just not a part of the story anymore.
And that's not anything bad.
And you get a message or whatever or phone call, but, you know, there's a, there's 8 billion other people out there now that are, that are involved in their own stories. So a little bit of a tangent on, on the parenting thing, but it's, it's great. And I love being a dad. It's. And I, I'm maybe a little bit more on.
I just love the process of making the dinner and doing all those other things. I, I don't know.
It's, you know, it's, I don't, I've never hated it, but I do have the philosophy is if you do something that you hate long enough, you learn to love it. And, and so I, you know, know, it's a gift for me to be a dad. I feel like. So.
Speaker B
00:35:35.712 - 00:35:45.512
And how do you, I mean, how do you teach with, with all the experience you've had being out there? How are you teaching your kids to interact with the, the natural world?
Eric Larsen
00:35:45.616 - 00:36:57.622
Old school. I'm old school. Just kick him out the door and lock, lock it behind him.
I'm not that old school, but I'm, I'm, I'm close because I do, again, I do see value in this unstructured stuff. And my kids do all the sports, right? Blah, blah, blah.
And so it's not like I'm, you know, my TV is running off of vacuum tubes or anything, but I love camping with the kids so much because it provides this unstructured space. And so when they were smaller, I mean, we still do a ton of car camping now, but we just did a lot of car camping, and they would just go run off.
I mean, just last summer, we will drive up the road just for an overnight, just like two miles up the road here in Crested Butte. And my son, we were with some friends, and my son was with the buddies, and they just ran off and they were gone.
And about an hour later, they came back and they're like, oh, sorry it took so long. We got lost. And I was just like, good.
So I, I, I tell my son, you know, because he's a little older, and I'm just like, like, good judgment comes from bad judgment.
Speaker B
00:36:57.686 - 00:36:58.450
I like that.
Eric Larsen
00:36:59.310 - 00:37:53.146
And just. Yeah. And so it's trying to just have him take risks in logical steps that don't, you know, overwhelm him.
I, you know, I don't want to push my values on him. I want him to discover his own. That being said, I'm pretty idealistic in a lot of the things, I think. So it's a. It's a definite challenge.
But, you know, I'm not trying to live my unrealized sports dreams or even expedition dreams through my kids, which is challenging because my son wants to do my polar training course. And I'm like, I. I just tell him, I'm like, dude, it's so boring. You know, he. He's. He's.
He's an incredible alpine skier because he's growing up at Crestview, so I can't even. I grew up in Wisconsin. I can't even look down the stuff that he skis. And so he's doing these big jumps and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker B
00:37:53.218 - 00:37:53.498
He.
Eric Larsen
00:37:53.554 - 00:38:20.506
He skis. He takes the bus up, he skis on his own, all this crap. And he. It's awesome. But he still wants to do this. And I. I think.
I know I could get him ready to ski to the South Pole in a couple years. He would be capable of it. And I could be like, I'll get the sponsors. We'll get this together.
But then I'm a tiger, polar dad or whatever it is, you know, and so it's. It's. It's a delicate balance with all this stuff.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:38:20.538 - 00:38:20.778
Sure.
Speaker B
00:38:20.834 - 00:38:21.354
Yeah.
Eric Larsen
00:38:21.482 - 00:38:43.610
I'm. I'm trying to just provide him opportunities. You know, we'll build a Quincy and sleep in our front yard. Same with, you know, same with my daughter.
We'll go out backpacking, all these things. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, these activities are great, lifelong pursuits in whatever capacity that it ends up being in for both.
Speaker B
00:38:43.650 - 00:39:04.158
Of my kids, there's always a downhill after an uphill. Right. Well, speaking of the downhills, maybe we'll get into the crappy part of this conversation for both of us, which is cancer. And maybe.
Why don't you tell us about your cancer diagnosis and prognosis and battle and how it's gone for you.
Eric Larsen
00:39:04.294 - 00:42:16.550
Yeah, that was crazy. It still is crazy. I mean, there aren't too many minutes that go by that I don't have a thought about it.
And I don't know if we'll get to talk about you here or not, but I do appreciate you reaching out to me prior or during, but in2021, I went in for a cold. I was literally leaving for a trip, like, four days later, and I was just getting a routine colonoscopy and woke up and had cancer.
Initially diagnosed at stage four because it looked like there was stuff in my lungs. And a couple Other places. And after about a month of tests and uncertainty, it was stage 3B, which was still crazy. Colorectal cancer, big tumor.
And then, you know, the world just goes away. And, yeah, that was. It was hard. But, you know, for me, I wasn't really thinking about expeditions or anything. I was just thinking about the family.
And, you know, initially, I was just, like, doing the math, like, because they. You know, they're like, okay, you got four years to live. I'm like, okay, well, my kid will be 12 or 13 when I die. What will they remember?
You know, what. What can I do with this time now? Just, you know, how much will I be deteriorating? I was just.
I didn't care about any med, you know, medical clinics or doctors.
I was just like, I'm just going to do my stuff as close as I can here, which is a challenge in Crested Butte, because I don't want to go anywhere else. And that was really my main thought process and just trying to get through every second. I mean, it was so scary. So overwhelmed.
I couldn't talk to anybody. Thankfully, my wife, Maria, you know, if I would have been alone, I probably would have just died. If it was just me. I couldn't talk to my mom.
I couldn't do anything. I was just so overwhelmed and scared. I mean, in a way that I've never been. And I was just bringing it all in.
It's just like, can I get through this hour? Can I go to sleep at night? You know, can I look at my kids? And, yeah, it's still.
You know, it's four years ago now, and it's still a very emotional thing for me. And, you know, then it was chemo, radiation, surgery. I had a really bad infection. After surgery, I couldn't sit in a chair for, like, five months.
I was pretty well on the oxycodone path, which I didn't realize at the time until I tried to stop taking it. And, man, it was just a challenge. And then, you know, as part of my surgery, I had an ileostomy bag to heal my colon.
I had about 14 inches of my colon removed, and then now my whole insides are different.
And it's just been a crazy journey, and one that I never would have expected, but really has informed my life in a lot of really positive ways, which is crazy to say, because it was a hellacious experience.
Speaker B
00:42:17.610 - 00:42:37.250
Yeah.
And, I mean, I think the most basic thing you said that really resonates with me is that idea of you don't worry about yourself so much as you worry about Those people you want to care for. Right? For your kids, for your wife, friends, the rest of your family. I mean, all of a sudden it puts that in a perspective where that's what matters.
That's all you care about, right?
Eric Larsen
00:42:37.290 - 00:43:47.092
I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really 100%. I mean, that was. And maybe other people are different and people experiencing things in different ways, but for.
It was really bringing it all in and not even about me and my life, you know, because, like, there's only one direction that we're all going, so it's not like any of us is getting out of it alive. And I had a good run. Like, I called my.
When I was finally able to talk to my mom maybe about a month and a half after my diagnosis, and I was just like, yeah, I mean, I, I had this dream of, of, of being an explorer or whatever you want to call it. I got to the North Pole, and as a kid from Wisconsin, I would never imagine that it came through.
I found a calmness in my life, being a dad that I never expected and a joy that I never realized. I'm like, what else do I need?
You know, so it was hard and it, you know, and I would lay in bed in chemo and I would listen to Maria and the kids eating dinner, and I'd be like, this is what it's like without me.
Speaker B
00:43:47.196 - 00:43:47.524
Yeah.
Eric Larsen
00:43:47.572 - 00:45:45.366
You know, and that was hard.
You know, I spent a lot of time watching the world go by, me and my career kind of going up in smoke and some of my crazy ideas, other people following through on. And I started to think, man, like, what is the point of all this stupid stuff that I've been doing?
It's so pointless, you know, And I, when Hillary O'Neill died, who I knew, and I thought, how arrogant was I to be putting myself in these life threatening situations? What a privileged, stupid thing to be doing.
And so I got really down on this whole adventure thing because I just felt like, man, when death chooses you, it's one thing. This is how I feel alive. This is what I'm meant to do. And the risk is part of who I am.
And blah, blah, blah, with all the stuff we've been talking about, about. But then when death chooses you, I didn't, I wasn't thinking about, I was trying. What are the fewest risks that I can take right now?
You know, like, how can I, like, go in a bubble to the hospital to chemo, you know, and. But as I move forward through all that, you know, on this really painful path physically, mentally uncertain outcome.
It was really all that adventure and all the things I did on expeditions that I would draw upon that really helped me get through in a crazy way that I would have never expected. You know, even just the chemo, like, we divide our day. Like, on a polar trip.
It's like, get through the first hour, then the second, then we're at lunch, and then it's this, and then it's the end of the day, and then we get to set the tent. I mean, how many chemo? Are you still on chemo?
Speaker B
00:45:45.398 - 00:45:48.410
I'm done. I did six rounds. Six rounds of chemo? Yeah.
Eric Larsen
00:45:48.830 - 00:45:55.250
Yeah. So you. Yeah. And so it's like, to think about the last round of chemo on round one.
Speaker B
00:45:55.550 - 00:45:56.330
Yeah.
Eric Larsen
00:45:57.310 - 00:46:34.128
Is. It's overwhelming. You can't do it. You can't get through it. You just, like, go walk off a cliff.
And so just like on expeditions, getting through a stupid, boring day, it's just like, okay, I got what, you know, I'm doing this one, then I'll get to the next one after I get that one, then it's, you know, two more to the halfway point. But I'm still not thinking about the end and just the physical discomfort.
I spent a lot of time on expeditions and physical discomfort and finding the one little piece of thing that could get me through that, or, you know, killing time when I just, you know, I couldn't carry an empty box across the room. I was so weak. Just all this stuff.
Speaker B
00:46:34.304 - 00:46:34.704
Yeah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:46:34.752 - 00:46:36.112
And I mean, I think you're, as.
Speaker B
00:46:36.136 - 00:46:53.296
You said with the chemo, too much. Like, when you're suffering out there, you know, when you first started, you're all, I can deal with this. It doesn't affect me at all.
And by those last rounds, you're like, I don't want to do this anymore. It sucks. You know what it's going to do to you. You know how bad it makes you feel, and, you know, it's cumulative.
Eric Larsen
00:46:53.408 - 00:47:20.910
So it was crazy. Yeah.
And I had this, you know, one of the drugs that I had, Oxala, plantin, gives you a real intolerance to cold in a very crazy, painful way that I was like, oh, man, I. Cold? Did you say cold? Like, if they're like, I can't do anything, but I can deal with the cold. Like, you know, that's, you know, polar.
Speaker B
00:47:20.990 - 00:47:21.822
Polar adventure.
Eric Larsen
00:47:21.886 - 00:48:34.170
Yeah. Yeah. Right here.
And I remember I walked into our grocery store after my first chemo session, and I walked through the vegetable section, and my hands, it was like needles in my hands. And it can be permanent. It can be permanent for certain people if you do it long enough. And my face.
And there'd be times when I forget and I'd take a drink of cold juice and it would just be like needles down my throat and I had to have my face covered and, and it was just, you know, it had to take my physical. You know, not only did cancer at that moment take away my physical ability, it also took away my identity and any sort of a hope of a future.
And so it was really hard for a long time.
And you know, I give a lot of credit to Maria for helping me through and just a lot of people, you know, as much as I do things on my own and White knuckle, I remember you sent me that picture from when or moved to Colorado.
Speaker B
00:48:35.070 - 00:48:36.998
The big party at the Ogden. Yes.
Eric Larsen
00:48:37.094 - 00:49:43.054
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I was just like, it was just so nice. It was just such a simple gesture.
And you know, it was a time when my trajectory was still going up and it was a very happy moment for me. I know a lot of my friends were there. It was a cool opportunity. And you know, I, that, that was awesome. And you and.
And other people from the outdoor industry. Kristen Hostetter was so kind. I remember she was in Boston. I did a lot of my, A lot of my surgeries and stuff out there.
She would pick me up for meet up with me. Yeah. And you know, I had spent these 20 years trying to do these things with myself, for myself.
And as a result, without knowing it, I got this great network of people. And you know, it's pretty cool.
Speaker B
00:49:43.102 - 00:50:03.318
It's hard to accept too, Right. I know. I felt that way. Like people wanted to raise money for you do things. You're like, no, no, I don't want that. Like, I don't want that.
I don't want you to do anything for me. And then eventually you kind of have to give into it. Other people say, well, wouldn't you do that for someone?
And then when you do give in, there's something just incredible about how many people are there for you if you put goodwill in the world.
Eric Larsen
00:50:03.454 - 00:51:14.492
Yeah. And you know, I'm a self employed dude, you know, and so as.
And my work really is not that these are very big, but you know, it's like my muscles are what brings in the money. And it was right after Covid. So the. When Covid hit, I was like, kind of like, great. I don't have to travel for a little while.
I've been on a tear doing all Sorts of stuff. And I was like, this is great. And then it was after Covid and it was a big challenge.
And so to accept that help from people in both big and small ways was the only way that I got by. And that has informed my life in such a huge way since that time. I was like, how did I get by before this?
I mean, I wasn't an a hole or anything, but. But at least I don't think so. Some people might say otherwise, but. But it's just now my path. I'm still on the same path.
I'm figuring it out, but it's just this.
This idea of compassion and, you know, when you were diagnosed, you know, I wouldn't say I was there 247 and nobody is, but just trying to send a few.
Speaker B
00:51:14.596 - 00:51:33.344
It meant so much to me because it meant so much to me to hear from you. And you were one of the first people I reached out to. Knew you and Drew Simmons, other people I knew who had gone through it. It means so much to.
And John Daqualo, you know, I reached out to these people to be like, hey, help me here. You know, help me along. You really need it. You need someone else who's gone through it.
Eric Larsen
00:51:33.512 - 00:52:15.078
Yeah. And it doesn't take much. You know, it's just a little message and so a note.
Whatever I'm thinking about you, it doesn't, you know, a lot of people get stuck and like, I don't know what to say. And I guess it, you know, I've been there. And what you realize is, you know, this human condition is so fragile and frail.
Our grasp on anything is pretty tenuous. And, you know, our ability to lift others up is maybe our greatest legacy overall.
And that's the thing that has really informed me as I move forward in my life. And yeah, I'm still figuring it out though.
Speaker B
00:52:15.134 - 00:52:32.214
And it's a different.
I mean, as you know, you feel mortality in a much different way than on the side of a cliff or on a, you know, near death crash or something like that. It's just a different understanding of mortality. I think when you get the diagnosis, you know.
Eric Larsen
00:52:32.302 - 00:52:34.130
Yeah, yeah. You have no control.
Speaker B
00:52:34.830 - 00:52:36.406
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
Eric Larsen
00:52:36.478 - 00:53:18.778
You know, the word is just so scary. We all know people that have died from cancer, so, you know, that you're tired is. Is limited in a way that it hasn't been before.
You know, death is choosing you, like I said, in. In comparison to you choosing the. The death or the path, so to speak, where, where death is an option.
And we're so arrogant in that path because we think we're in control. And part of that is good. I mean, that's. That's the purpose of us too. You know, that's where. That's where the risk.
That's why risk is important, because we. We get better at that stuff. And so I, you know, who knows? I don't know where I'm going. Hopelessly lost, but making good time. That's what I say.
Speaker B
00:53:18.914 - 00:53:36.426
Well, and, you know, and in. In the weird way, of course, with any negatives or any tart experience, you know, you do find the gift of it, right?
What it gives us and what it teaches us. And, you know, that's there too, right? There is a positivity to death choosing you, I guess, 100%.
Eric Larsen
00:53:36.498 - 00:54:04.836
I mean, and that's. I think maybe I messaged you this as well. But I. As crazy as it sounds, I wouldn't change.
I mean, it was two years, and even now, my life, I'm not the same person. It was hell, and that's putting it mildly. But as crazy as all that was, I don't think I would change it. I wouldn't change it.
But that's also a little bit of who I am. I've purposely gone into, you know, unpleasant situations, hoping for the, like, micro pearl of wisdom in all that crap.
Speaker B
00:54:04.948 - 00:54:06.820
This is not a good way to find that pearl.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:54:06.900 - 00:54:08.456
It's not a good way to find.
Eric Larsen
00:54:08.598 - 00:54:33.880
No, it's not.
But I've also realized, I think there are a lot of people in the world that are smarter than me and learn lessons easier, but for whatever reason, I'm just destined to learn everything the hard way. And this is just another thing to learn and move forward with and enjoy my time here while I can.
And just like an expedition, go up there and see what happens.
Speaker B
00:54:34.370 - 00:54:55.818
I guess not to force the metaphor either, but I think for when you've been sick and then you look at the planet, places you've been on the planet, and we see that the planet's sick too. Right.
And in some ways, hopefully dealing with this disease can help us think about how to deal with the planet, how to find resilience, how to find hope.
Eric Larsen
00:54:55.874 - 00:54:56.090
Right.
Speaker B
00:54:56.130 - 00:54:57.226
How to move on.
Eric Larsen
00:54:57.298 - 00:57:29.642
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and those are thoughts that are kind of of cornerstone to who I am as a person. My background is in environmental education.
My dad was the director of a nature center when I was a kid.
So I was like a little weird kid that was banning birds and collecting prairie seeds and doing all these things and I got into expeditions, not a lot of people know, but not because I thought I was a tough dude, but because I thought adventure was a great way to talk about environmental issues and be outside. And I'm still on that path. You know, I.
I have taken a hard look with our current political climate and just the changing world of, you know, all this advocacy that I've done, kind of what I would kind of negatively now call a little more lip service. I mean, I think we did a lot of great things and petitions to get polar bears that get listed as endangered species and other. All these other things.
But at the end of the day, I'm a little more pessimistic about my particular efforts.
I still take aluminum cans out of garbage when I see it and turn all my lights off in my house and all these other things, which I think individual action are important. But I've had a little bit of.
I'm still in the midst of it, I think just reflection on what does environmental advocacy look like moving forward to make an impact, And I don't have any answers. I think a social media post about something doesn't hurt, but I don't know if it really is moving the needle at all.
And what I keep coming back to is the outdoors and being outside and being close to nature and in whatever shape or form that is, whether it's an expedition, whether it's, you know, playing in a park, bird watching, hunting, fishing, and anything in between playing soccer. I don't know. I think all these things are important parts of us being connected to our planet as we simultaneously become disconnected to our planet.
And so I don't know what my path is in terms of my environmental advocacy, but I know it's kind of more focused on that idea of being outdoors for everyone.
Speaker B
00:57:29.746 - 00:57:41.146
I like that. Yeah. It seems the only answer. Right.
Because we have to all understand the power of it and need that power in our lives, I think, to then want to advocate for it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:57:41.218 - 00:57:41.466
Yeah.
Eric Larsen
00:57:41.498 - 00:58:31.788
And understand that even if we don't go there, it's still important to the health of our planet.
You know, these wilderness areas, these large, vast, untracked sections of wilderness, the arduous, the Arctic and Antarctic ice caps, Greenland ice sheet, all these places. And then, you know, also just for our own personal mental health, our own physical health, like all these things. And so, you know, I.
I'm not totally sure how to. To talk about that in a more succinct sound bite way that makes people jump up and do something. But.
But like most of my things, I Look at it as a continual effort and a process of kind of honing in on where that lands and trying to do my little part in the best way that I can.
Speaker B
00:58:31.924 - 00:58:53.298
I think. You know, we've talked about cancer, we've talked about the collapse of the planet and all that, and I don't know, we can't end on that.
But what we can end on is the question that I ask everyone at the end of the show, which is simply, what gives you hope in the midst of all of this, in the civilis we've just been talking about.
Eric Larsen
00:58:53.434 - 01:00:43.426
Yeah, what gives me hope? I mean, people have been. Man, that is such a good question. Yeah. Not the fleeting nature of time, I can tell you that much. I mean, it is going fast.
Oh, man, I want to slow that clock down. You know, I think what gives me hope is just. I mean, first of all, I'm an optimist, so I'm always hopeful.
I have an optimistic view of humanity, too, and I think we will find a way that's hopefully a good path and that's sustainable. I think we have the ability to do those things at some point.
And then I look around and I'm just so inspired by so many people out there right now doing interesting things, taking a cool photograph, as much as I hate to admit it, doing a very creative Instagram post, some of them are. I mean, there's some really creative people out there. My kids finding joy in doing things. They're friends, you know, there's not.
There's not too many days go by when I don't see somebody doing a cool adventure. I'm like, I wish I would do that. Looking at a map of the planet, you know, space travel. I'm optimistic about that, too. Science. I love science.
I think there's a lot of solutions in science. So I, I.
There's a lot of things that give me hope, and so I like to focus on those, because there is a lot of stuff that's kind of stressing me out, too. But I also, I see that other stuff, and I think that's what keeps you going, is that kind of movement towards that positivity.
Speaker B
01:00:43.618 - 01:00:59.390
That's beautiful. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for being on the show. On a deeper level, thank you for sharing your story.
Thank you for being there to support me when I've been going through cancer. And thank you for being a beacon of optimism for so many people out there.
Eric Larsen
01:01:00.650 - 01:01:07.736
Said by nobody ever. Yeah, no problem. Thank you, Doug. I appreciate the opportunity to be here, and it was great. To talk with you.
Speaker B
01:01:07.808 - 01:01:19.480
Can't wait for the chance we can talk again.
And if anyone does want to, you know, join you as a guide or an expedition, how can they find out what you're doing and how they might be able to learn from you?
Eric Larsen
01:01:19.600 - 01:01:32.226
Well, you can go to my website that what hasn't been updated since 1945. And that is www.eric Larsonexplorer.com. just google my name.
Speaker B
01:01:32.408 - 01:01:34.910
Thanks so much, Eric. Really good to talk to you.
Eric Larsen
01:01:35.030 - 01:01:35.930
Thank you.
Doug Schnitzspahn
01:01:37.590 - 01:01:40.078
Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production.
Speaker B
01:01:40.094 - 01:01:41.726
Of Rock Fight, llc.
Doug Schnitzspahn
01:01:41.918 - 01:02:04.600
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com learn more about Erik Larson at eriklarsinexplorer.com our producers today were David Karstad and Colin Tree. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some thanks for listening.
