What's The Best Dumbest Thing You've Done In The Outdoors?

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Today Doug opens the container with Greg Williams.

Doug begins the show by embracing dirtbag status. If you work in the outdoor industry, you are indeed a dirtbag. Because you have merged your passion for the outdoors with a career choice that should allow you more time outside.

Doug is then joined by Greg Williams, president of Backbone Media, who shares his extensive background working at the intersection of business and outdoor culture. From starting a climbing gym in Philadelphia, to helping to lead one of the leading outdoor PR and media companies, Greg understands the evolution of brands that come from a dirtbag ethos.

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Episode Transcript:

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:00:00.240 - 00:07:30.420

Hey everyone.

Before we get started today, I want to thank you for listening to Open Container and ask that you please subscribe to the show by clicking Follow on the podcast app you're using right now. Following the podcast is the best way to ensure that we will continue to crack open the container every single week. Thanks and let's start the show.

Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzpahn. I'm a journalist, writer, and overall lover of the outdoors.

I've fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I never say no to a summit beer.

On this podcast, we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Let's get some if you're in the outdoor industry, you're a dirtbag. And that is something to be proud of. It means your primary drive.

What matters most to you is being outside. Getting in the dirt, finding new singletracks, skiing powder, climbing sketchy lines. Maybe all the above. Probably all the above.

Your gear is stuff you've held onto for years. Stuff you somehow wrangled a good deal on.

Stuff you've learned to love because it was with you on that crazy traverse in the Mummy Range, running Colorado's Glenwood Canyon, finding a guy in Japan to take you to his secret stash in the North. Real life isn't just about the job. It's about these moments, and you do whatever it takes to hold onto them. There's just one problem.

You still need the job. You still need the responsibilities. That's where the outdoor industry comes in.

It's a place where dirtbags can find a type of respect, a space where your never ending need to be out there can actually turn into a career. This certainly happened to me. I spent summers working in the dirt, building trails for the Forest Service. Winters were filled with odd jobs.

Teaching English as a second language, bartending at Bucks T4 and Big sky on weekends, tutoring at Montana State University. Anything to make sure most of my day was still dedicated to being a dirtbag. And don't get me started on gear.

I came into the outdoor industry with REI pants, bought on sale and held together by duct tape and a rain jacket as a ski layer. Years later, after writing reviews and testing gear all over the world, my garage is a bizarre hoard of outdoor gear from over the years.

I'm still saving it, hoarding it up, thinking like a dirtbag. Sure, this might all sound selfish, and in many ways it is.

But until you really think about what matters, there's an old cliche, but a true one that people on their deathbeds don't wish they'd worked more. They remember the time they spent experiencing the world.

The better their experiences, the more they understood the beauty and the subtlety of moving up, rock crushing Pow. Or feeling the wind on your face on a ridgeline.

There's an idea I come back to whenever it comes to skiing or climbing or any outdoor discipline, it's a practice, a beautiful practice and an art. And no matter how good you get, how much you learn, there's always an ocean. More what a beautiful way to live.

I once worked with a few cowboys who helped us haul water bars and place them on a steep trail. I told one of them I'd be ski bombing that winter. He just looked at me and said, best thing you can do with your life.

Those memories on the trail, on the rock, in the snow, they keep us going. They're the reason we go back to the job. The outdoor industry was founded by dirtbags who needed a job but refused to give up the life.

I have often talked about how good old Yvon Chouinard simply started making climbing gear so that he could climb.

That evolved alongside his ethics and a vision of lifestyle as something that could be safely commodified with the red guardrails and and grew into a nationwide phenomena. Just look at the love social media slathers on Patagonia for brand choices.

And I'd love to talk about Cloud Veil, the classic, beloved Jackson Hole brand founded by ski bums who helped hype a new fabric and changed how we saw jackets forever. Now we see young people following in the same path.

Like Gigi Edwards at nora, she was just a guide on a glacier with a vision for pants that would work better for women in the wild. As we mature, yes, even as dirtbags, we realize we also have to make a living. But we bring a lot of experience with us.

As dirtbags, we joke that all we want to do is be outside, but that time outside builds real skills. Problem solving, resilience, a deep care for the natural world. Turns out those qualities are perfect for business.

Not just for profitable business, but for businesses that support people, protect the planet, and build something lasting. Capitalism is certainly a double edged sword. We need productive lives, yes, but unchecked capitalism devours what it's supposed to support.

Right now, we're deep in the dark side of that imbalance. So maybe we, the outdoor industry, are the key.

Maybe dirt bags are exactly what the world needs right now to create more stable businesses to Help the planet heal. My guest today certainly believes in that. He's spent his life with dirtbag roots and has seen the outdoor industry evolve firsthand.

He's here to talk about the company he's worked for for most of his career, Backbone Media. For those that are unfamiliar, Backbone is one of the outdoor industry's biggest players in PR and media relations.

Founded in 1997 in Colorado, they were one of the first agencies to solely focus on outdoor and active lifestyle brands. Over the past 20 to 25 years, I've worked with them not just as colleagues, but as friends.

We've shared real adventures, dirtbag moments together on the top of Colorado peaks, in the deep snow of Switzerland, climbing, skiing, laughing, and most of all, thinking. Thinking about how brands evolve, how they can do better.

Greg Williams, now the president of Backbone Media, started working at the agency in 1997 as a PR account manager and went on to launch its paid media and social media services 20 years ago.

Long before that, the former Susquehanna hoopster co founded the Philadelphia rock gym in 1993, helping build one of the region's first indoor climbing communities. At Backbone, he Now oversees all 11 service areas across paid and earned media.

He also serves on the boards of Mountain Project, Roots Rated and five Point Film. Now let's open the container with Greg Williams. Okay, here we are with Greg Williams.

And Greg, I'm excited to see you and talk to you today and I have what I think is an outstanding question to start things off and that is simply, what's the best dumbest thing you have ever done in the outdoors?

Greg Williams

00:07:31.620 - 00:09:22.180

Ooh, that's an easy and maybe hard question, depending who you ask. If you ask my family, probably really long list of things that were maybe dumb that weren't dad's best ideas. Maybe you asked some of my partners.

But I do think and have survived climbing big walls in the winter and getting lost and swimming through slot canyon. So a lot of different things, a lot of exploits that maybe I shouldn't have tried. Climbing mostly around climbing.

But one that really, really stands out is when we were hired by the Philadelphia Phillies to be the entertainment between innings. And we were hired to be the extreme team. So the Phillies weren't good back then in the mid-90s. So we were the extreme team.

And it was game one, opening game versus the Braves. Boys to men were singing the national anthem. There's a big flyover of the Air Force jets. And Dave, my friend and I, we're the extreme team.

So we're dressed up and kind of like Philly fanatic fluorescent outfits and we, well, we juma'd up these ropes and then we rappel back down into Vet Stadium between the first and second half of the third inning. It caused this huge melee to happen out in center field where a lot of kids from South Philly were maybe day drinking.

They had to stop the baseball game. We were highlighted in the press by Howard Eskin of the Extreme Team, maybe led to the extreme behavior of the Phillies.

And that's a disgrace to baseball. And just so anyhow, I've been deeply, deeply immersed in outdoor since graduating from college.

After my hoop dreams kind of fell apart a little bit and I started rock climbing.

So I've been connected to outdoor through the sport of climbing for many, many years and just celebrated my 20th anniversary here at Backbone July 1st.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:09:23.060 - 00:09:49.590

Yeah, and I think we're going to get into that a little further into the podcast and I think that's a good place to start too because I mean an important thing I think for you and your history in the outdoor industry, the outdoor space, is that after you graduated college, as you said, after you were, you know, done playing, looking to do something else in the world, you founded a climbing gym in 1993, correct? 1993.

Greg Williams

00:09:50.550 - 00:15:21.540

Yeah, it was 1993. So got out of college in 92, as you kind of alluded to, went there.

Basketball was a big part of my life that started to fall apart midway through kind of junior year and I was introduced to rock climbing by a friend, Todd Erickson, and just started climb these scrappy quarries in and around central Pennsylvania, around State College.

And my friend Matt and I, who I co started the gym with was from Philadelphia and we were going to this barn that kind of was an indoor gym and it just had this vibe and this energy around Harrisburg and we, we just knew there was no gym in Philadelphia. So the job market was really tough. In 1992 there wasn't a lot going on my and and we decided we were going to start a climbing gym.

So I have publicly much but back then people that owned climbing gyms were Tony Yanniro and Peter Mayfield and these kind of regional climbing icons that owned climbing gyms and you almost had to have permission to do so. So Matt and I, we were a couple college kids. We didn't know much about climbing. We didn't know much about less about business.

This is what I haven't admitted much before, but I bought after starting and owning the gym, I bought a belay device like I did not know much about climbing. So we were teaching People how to climb. And the gym, we built it ourselves. So that was another thing.

I bought a hammer at Lowe's and or I think it was, still have it. We built it ourselves where we fortuitously met people in the community that were maybe more skilled. And we started it for 30,000 bucks.

And that's when we were like core setting. We like, well, we have 15 rocks with holes drilled in them with a bolt and a washer. How can we make it to the top of the wall?

Not like how can we make this a great course setting round. So anyhow, it was very bare bones. It was first generation climbing gym.

It was really even from Jersey, Maryland kind of pa like a tri state destination. People would really come from far and wide. And we got the gym open and from day one we were busy. It was highly, highly anticipated. It was very co ed.

We were very intentional about being welcome and not being intimidating. So we had our day pass, harness, chalk bag, shoes, 20 bucks. You know, just made it easy for people. And we continued to invest in the product.

We always had amazing core setting. We were so committed, living and breathing the sport. Just 24, seven. We lived in the gym for maybe nine months.

We're like, we have a 10,000 square foot warehouse. Why would we live anywhere else?

So that was always a little funky, depending on the company you were keeping at the time and just, just loving, loving, loving just having the gym. John De Quah, who you know from the industry, who's one of our senior PR people here, he managed the gym. It was just an amazing time.

Climbing all over the country, road tripping out to Yosemite, scraping our way up El Cap. Not a speed record, but just like surviving it. So all kinds of things. And it was such a just a great time we were putting.

John became a nationally certified World cup certified judge. We hosted events at Chelsea Pier, Philly Rock Gym there is still there today and continuing to thrive and grow.

But I met my girlfriend in the gym, who's now my wife of 27 years. We met in the gym. We were climbing out west a lot after we got married.

Wanted to start our life in a mountain town around a higher composition of people. So the rock Gym time we established partnerships with rei, brought the Banff Mountain Film Festival to Philadelphia.

That's still now running like 25 years later. So just an amazing time. And really I wouldn't say was that surprising, but the hypothesis was there is a climbing community around Philadelphia.

Everybody's just out in the woods climbing with their partners. There was nowhere back in the day for people to come together, maybe an eastern mountain sports a little bit.

But there weren't film fest, there weren't the retail, there weren't climbing gyms. So what proved that hypothesis right away we were really busy. We're really, really popular with.

There's upwards of 90 colleges and universities around Philadelphia. So it was just this kind of pipeline.

Haverford, Bryn Mawr, Villanova of college kids and this climbing community that came together in a really, really amazing way. We had people working for free for us for a year and just, we just had this kind of community and tribe.

We always hosted traveling climbers, Hans Flooring, Curt Smith, Chris Bonnington, just, just the climbers over the years that would come through and make Philly part of their stop.

So I would say the prg, the Philadelphia Rock Gym was and has turned into one of the more well known kind of iconic gyms of, of the era and is still there today.

So amazing, amazing time and a lot of lessons from the business side of things, but really just around the community, the people coming together around the gym, it's an amazing time.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:15:21.860 - 00:15:37.530

In a way it really doesn't sound that different from a climbing gym. Now like when you're describing it to me, I don't know what maybe the holds, right?

The holds were different but otherwise a sense of community and people being there. So what was. How have climbing gyms changed in that time, do you think? How have they? How is.

Greg Williams

00:15:37.770 - 00:17:00.530

Yeah, yeah, no, the bathrooms, the parking lots, the coffee, the retail is clean. Like a lot of that is amazing. The walls are higher, the, the, the, the processes are better.

But still at that core it's that community and what I really think it, it's become and I think there's better language around it now.

But there was a book, I don't even know if you're familiar with the popcorn report, but Faith Popcor was a futurist and would talk about things and it kind of went into our loose business plan that we had. But people are looking to go to a malls to like a big Cabela's and to an experience and spend time.

And now I think what people are talking about is the third place and where is that third place now that maybe church is delivered a little differently or people are hanging out in bars a little less frequently or with less time or movie theater.

So the climbing gym I think has really emerged as a third place where you're spending time, you're meeting people, which I do think has led to a lot of change within the investment structure.

And then the ability for climbing gyms to build these $10 million facilities and private equity coming in and really looking to capture kind of all of the benefits around this third place and where people are spending time and meeting. And obviously it's, it's very. Demographic is, is younger. Absolutely.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:17:01.060 - 00:17:01.780

And more diverse.

Greg Williams

00:17:02.580 - 00:19:13.370

Very co ed diverse. The on ramp to the sports now totally has changed. And I think you and I have seen it growing up in kind of the mid Atlantic.

You might be in an AMC hiking club up in the Adirondacks or the White Mountains, or you need a mentor. You grew up as a scout or something like that to learn how to do these sports.

And now I think because of things like climbing gyms, like yoga in the park, like wave pools now, which are starting to become maybe not common, but they're not as unusual as they once were, are really changing that on ramp and accessibility, which I think does a couple things from a participation side of things. Like clearly it expands participation, it introduces new people to the sport.

And I also think it starts to quickly, maybe transcend or really push the standard in these, in these sports. And you see it within climbing, you see it and skiing with, you know, half pipes and everything going on there.

And then this next generation coming into the sport which is somewhat blending, which used to be really separate. Right. And I know you would have seen this fitness and outdoor. Like you kind of had your fitness people that were like okay with going to the gym.

And then you had outdoor people were like just, I hate the gym. Like I climb because I'm not a gym person. But. But maybe we are wore that to some degree.

Maybe I was less because I was a basketball player and I always kind of saw that. But that intersection of outdoor and fitness, I think has really changed the sport.

I think athletes are training in a fundamentally different way, allowing them to push the standard, really allowing them to create and capture media in a way that is maybe appealing and shared on social to the next generation. And then you're bringing in this completely different mindset. You see it from like a light, fast side of things.

You, you see the Everest record looking to be broken this year with sneakers and micro spikes and like that's blasphemy. Blasphemy. Or just the standards that just continue to elevate across the board.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:19:13.450 - 00:20:02.780

Yeah.

And I think it's fascinating too to look at, I mean, your career, you know, going from the gym to climbing magazine to Backbone to watching Backbone kind of explode, also mirrors, I think the way that the outdoor industry, outdoor business, Itself has grown right from this very kind of niche area, you know, with or very core area too with climbing. Right. To a few clients to now what we think of as outdoors is all over the place. Right.

Includes as you said before, includes lifestyle, includes fitness even. Right.

So what are some of the most in the time that you've been at backbone at least in those 20 years, what are some of the most significant like trends that you've seen stick around that have really grown and taken off and become part of outdoors now that weren't when you started?

Greg Williams

00:20:03.340 - 00:24:54.880

Maybe I'll story tell a little bit about some of the history that we've had with some of our brands. And I talk about Black diamond and it's kind of representative of a couple partnerships.

We have Patagonia, who's been a great partner for many years and was Chouinard Frost turned in great Pacific Ironworks that was then divested and became Black diamond.

And essentially that Diamond Sea and bd, who we've been with forever I think has taught kind of backbone and a lot in Peter Metcalfe's leadership and applying alpine principles to running a business in terms of self sufficiency, caring about style matters. And style matters to us in terms of how we do our work.

We believe style matters in terms of how you move about the mountains, how you would ski a line, how you would climb a route, how you would run a river.

But really we believe style matters in terms of how we do our work and how we ride for the brands we work with, how we represent them, how we believe internally here we had no titles for the longest time. Ideas can come from anywhere.

We have a lot of people that have joined our team over the years that have been really early in their career and developed their career here that are still here and directors and thriving and people that have left in the more, more backboners in the world, the better. But what has also changed about our business, we've also been able to attract people with a lot of experience.

Our digital director now she came from running media 10 years at Vail. We have analytics director from big agency experience in Boston.

So I like the mix there and I still like, I mean a couple brands we work with, Peter would always say and Neil Fisk who's running BD now, who we've worked with at a couple agencies is getting back to the core roots of BD and I really love that and I always liked for BD that we make products for sports with consequence and I was always like that's amazing. Love working for a client like that or a partner there. And then even New Belgium Brewing, who was a really, really important win for us in 2008.

It was our first million dollar ad buy and it was really working with some great people. Greg Owsley, Adrian, Melissa Kim up at New Bel, that great, great crew. And they were at the intersection of great bike, great beer bikes and whimsy.

So in terms of a partnership there and kind of those heydays of craft beer and rolling new states and growth and launching Voodoo IPA and all that different stuff, there's just been so many brands that have catalyzed our growth and I think representative of this changing industry and probably, most notably, probably Yeti. So Ryan and Roy Cedars, you know, starting Yeti, we've been a partner with them, I'd say probably 10 years now.

And we represent their community marketing both on the paid and earn side. And really their product hypothesis was create the most badass product that can withstand the elements.

That becomes a tool that you need to fish, to hunt, to keep ice colder, longer. And then how do we expand that to other direct use cases, multi week or multi night white water trips is a great example of that.

And now Yeti and talks about current trends and changes, is almost a $3 billion publicly traded company that is authentic and credible as ever with the core. But stainless steel drinkware is available in Whole Foods. So how do we bridge that and how do we keep kind of that authenticity that may.

Many of these passion brands have and they're started by these owner founders. We work with Alpaca packrafts, we work with La Sportiva, with the great crew with Bill and Len and crew up in Steamboat at Big Agnes.

And those core brands and those passion brands I think are really, really valuable to us as a business in terms of credibility.

And as we've grown over time, I think kind of the bigger we get and working with big brands, Yeti and a lot of VF brands and beyond, so important that we're working with Alpaca out of Mancus and we can authentically represent those brands through the teams that we're able to hire in Colorado. And really we have mountain office and city office and aligning teams.

You think of somebody like John who you know well, he's a climber, a skier, a runner, I would guess if you think of John Dicualo, you think bd, right? Like pretty much. I mean, yeah.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:24:54.880 - 00:25:10.910

And really bridging that idea of what is outdoors. Right. And what an outdoors being everywhere and everything to everyone in some way. Right? Does that water down?

I mean, being someone who came from really core climbing, do you. Do you worry at all about outdoors being watered down in any way?

Greg Williams

00:25:11.150 - 00:25:13.630

Yeah, I mean, I am.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:25:15.630 - 00:25:16.070

A little.

Greg Williams

00:25:16.070 - 00:26:45.000

Bit concerned, but I am also very aware that we, I, Backbone, we're very complicit. We market all of these brands. We are promoting using the brands.

We are also very active from an advocacy side of things, pro bono work for the Conservation alliance for Protect Our Winners for big city mountaineers for many, many years. And advocacy is a core value and we really, really believe in it. And clearly it is top of mind in terms of public lands and access.

I think we see here in Colorado, sportsmen, anglers, hunters, fishermen, have been very active in terms of funds that are contributed for conservation. We love that kind of the outdoor, human powered and sportsman side of things coming together to hopefully preserve access.

And that access is just so critical, I think, to the health of Backbone for sure and every brand that we work with. So I do say, and there are places here in West Slope, Colorado that are secrets.

And I have a lot of friends who've been backcountry skiers who maybe have criticized Backbone, you know, from promoting things. So I do think we need to do it mindfully.

I do love some of the work we do with Breckenridge Tourism and down in Telluride in terms of marketing and getting people to new trailheads through content marketing. Not everybody on quandary and whatnot. So.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:26:45.080 - 00:27:05.470

Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. Yeah, that's a great point. And I think that came up with this public land sell off, right?

That like, yeah, the parks are important, the popular places are important.

But also with so much pressure on the outdoors, it's also really important to protect places we don't want to talk about, even right off the grid and everything else.

Greg Williams

00:27:06.990 - 00:27:33.500

And the importance to wildlife. And we're seeing it front and center here.

Maybe we're not going to get into the whole wolf topic, but my son works at a ranch and we have a lot of friends deep in the community here. We overlook ranches where we live.

And just the pressure that the, the use, use of our public lands has put on wildlife and elk and kind of freedom to roam and those things. It's on full display here in West Slope. And how do you balance that?

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:27:33.740 - 00:28:10.500

Yeah, I mean, the spectrum of what outdoors? I mean, that's. We talk about a difference in 20 years or 35 years. Right. Like, talk about New York. We, you know, we had our.

The rock fight, you know, outdoor Towns and Shantae named New York is one. And we actually kind of agreed and then she, the listeners voted her as the winner of her choices.

But like 20 years ago, you would have never thought of New York as an outdoor destination or a place where people would be interested in outdoor stuff. And that I think on that spectrum is so different now. Why is that?

Why do you think we think of New York as a place for the outdoors now and 20 years ago we didn't.

Greg Williams

00:28:12.100 - 00:29:34.800

Yeah, no, it's interesting. I do think we see it.

We see the decentralization of media happening in New York, but still kind of the influence and the gravitas that a New York event has. Our clients really want to get there. So I see it maybe less in terms of, you know, New York.

You see west side highway, you see a ton of young people that are fitted out with their HOKA outfits and the stores there. And everybody has to have a store. And in soho, every outdoor brand, one of our clients has a pop up store. Everybody has stores.

So I just say from an influence side of things, it's as relevant as ever. And just that generational shift and trend to experience based economy, which I do think is connected to outdoor, is alive and well.

I had a friend, he was running New Balance and he said a big, big change in their business was Casual Fridays and it just like exploded their business. And one was casual Fridays, like 80s, 70, like a long time ago now. Now every day is, you know, casual.

So kind of you see these things that have happened that have really changed business. So for us, yeah, New York is more of a place to show up and expose our brands to kind of everything that's happening there.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:29:34.800 - 00:29:38.800

Do you get people outside? Do you get people on standups or get a running biking?

Greg Williams

00:29:38.880 - 00:30:11.360

Absolutely, we're doing running, we're doing different classes, we're on paddle boards, we're fishing for stripers off, you know, in the bay, like all of the above. You know, we're going to. Yeah, totally. So we always do that.

So Ian Anderson on the PR side, he's been running PR here for a long, long time, doing a great job. He was just with Strava in New York City with the Hearst editors and Absolutely. They're riding bikes.

So it's always look to get people out using the product natural. Well.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:30:11.360 - 00:30:23.800

And I know. So one of the things I know about Backboned is you have this kind of guiding philosophy of brand community performance. BCP you guys call it.

How did that develop? What does it mean? How does that keep you Guys honest?

Greg Williams

00:30:25.240 - 00:36:35.460

Yeah, I think it keeps us honest in a couple ways.

So we were launched as a PR business, product placement, getting coverage for our brands, representing them in an authentic and credible way and that can maybe influence the next concentric circle of users. So our business was born on the pr, say earn side of things. Through that trust and absolute sticky relationship that we would have with brands.

We naturally have expanded to include other services because I had some experience on the sales side at climbing. We had some trust with PolarTech and BD and CloudVale and Gerber early on and we were able to add paid media services.

So hey, where should we advertise? Where's our next customer coming from? And it was really straightforward there and I'm sure we did some deals and some different stuff.

It was full page, print, right hand read, prepay, all that stuff. It was great. We had a file cabinet, we had insertion orders and we were off and running. We thought that, thought that was great.

So we had paid and earned media. That is how our business remains organized today.

18 years ago it was maybe a little bit unique and having both in the same agency, maybe that church and state kind of separation was more prevalent than it is today.

But we really found that the brand knowledge, the understanding of community that we had on the PR side, coupled with the ability to add paid dollars to extend the reach and influence of some of that earned media that was really potent.

And within that intersection of paid and earned media there was a gray area and it allowed us to be creative with social media marketing, content marketing, influencer marketing. So it allowed us to expand the number of services that we have. And now at backbone you could have a scope for up to 10 things.

Retail marketing, SEO, SEM, paid and earned media, PR, affiliate, so and on. But really what I get to is this brand community performance which is a pretty simple concept around a three legged stool.

And really when you have balance between brand community it will lead to better performance. But really when we unpack that and take give some credit to yeti, hey, the bigger you get, the smaller you need to be.

And I think that is community and we're starting to see it apply to our work in and that authentic connection to community that brands have are those roots that really, really strengthen that brand. And I think as an agency our understanding of these communities.

So not just outdoor because we're so well known and outdoor, but you could talk about overlanding, you could talk about golf, you could talk about hunt, you could talk about fish. Our ability to grow and scale our business is understanding These passionate communities.

So then we couple individuals that work at backbone, kind of the art and the science that are passionate and authentic members of those communities so they understand where influence comes from. So it's not future proofing versus AI or dispelling maybe what some software could tell you about your target audience.

It's like if you're an authentic member, you know the substacks, you know the influencers, you know the events, you know how to support those communities, you have a Rolodex, you have endemic knowledge. And that has allowed us to scale our business beyond the outdoor community to a lot of communities.

So when you have those roots, you have those authentic connections. We really think that strengthens the brand. We do a lot of our work at that brand level.

That brand can grow and thrive with paid earned media, social media. And we have teams that are really, really focused on the brand side of things. And then the stronger the brand, clearly. And we've really.

Charlie Loessner, who came from launching E Commerce at Outdoor Retailer, he leads our digital media team, he's a partner, took maybe what I had started to build on the media side and just taken it to a whole nother level.

We have 45 people on the media team, we have analysts, we have benchmarks and really, really, really driving performance and looking at a whole different set of KPIs. What matters for success. So it's this ecosystem that we're working in.

And I really like some of the language I hear coming back from say a client meeting like hey, they need more. See, see, they need more community, they need to invest more at that level or they need more brand.

You did see a lot of brands coming out of COVID and really squeezing the bottom of that funnel, really looking to maximize return comp.

These all time highs people were hitting coming out of COVID with stimulus money and participation in an all time high that they were really, really fatiguing the bottom of that funnel with remarketing with search and just really focusing budget there. Going into 25, we were feeling a big momentum of brands looking to invest back up into the brand.

So more B, more C. And unfortunately we're seeing brands right now this year in kind of Q2 here pulling back from that brand investment directly tied to the uncertainty and chaos that this tariff conversation is fueling. So then people, you know, continue to squeeze the bottom of that funnel. They got to see the returns.

We've seen a wholly different ownership structure and constituency that we're dealing with with publicly traded brands, private equity coming in aggressively and it, it really threatens, I think a lot of these brands that have been built by these owners and these passion based brands. And how do you kind of balance these business reality of what these brands have become?

So kind of BCP a little long winded there, but really we see it just a way of organizing teams, working well together and working to find kind of that elusive balance between the three.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:36:35.940 - 00:37:14.180

I think it's interesting though, I mean as you said, you brought up AI, you brought up private equity coming in. I think consumers know, especially passionate consumers know when a brand's dead though, right?

They know when a brand's lost its soul and there's nothing worse, right. So there still has to be value in that sea, right? In the community, in making sure that it's authentic and possibly even more so.

Now if there's going to be pressure of only the super rich brands and sort of fake content being pumped out there, do you think there's going to be more value in kind of where you guys started with dirtbag authenticity?

Greg Williams

00:37:15.620 - 00:38:30.630

Yeah, yes, 100% I do. I see that. That not only is an opportunity for backbone. Yes, absolutely.

It not only from AI, but you do see, say I see backbone in a competitive sandwich. You see a lot of these bigger agencies, they'd like to work with yeti, they'd like to work with the portfolio business we have with vf.

They, you know, they, they we are not as unique that we're in the mountains and that we surf and ski and all that stuff. Like there's a lot of agencies that do that and you'll see almost thousands of boutique agencies, influencer agencies here in this compet sandwich.

But I do think for a lot of those smaller brands and that authentic connection to the community and a little bit of that next generation and what is relevant and what is next and speaking to them where they want to be spoken to. I think there was a question about new business launches and startups. I think connecting with that sea.

You see this brand here in Carbondale, I don't even really know them, but they're doing a great job. Raid packs, just innovating with waist belts and just connecting, connected to this next generation.

Both from the way they're showing up in the community and then how they're distributing that content.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:38:31.510 - 00:38:46.710

So do you think, you know, going way back to your beginnings at the climbing gym, do you think there are any lessons you learned from when you were first, you know, putting rocks up on the wall and trying to bring people in that are still applicable in the environment, in the super high pressure, super high end environment we're talking about now.

Greg Williams

00:38:47.750 - 00:41:04.920

Yeah, I mean, I think agency likes to hustle, right? It's like super. It's pretty hectic. There's a lot of surface area and I take some learnings as our business has grown.

I talk about how many people we have, how many different services we have. I saw that at the Rock Gym. We had memberships, day passes, lessons.

We tried to do retail, we had outdoor guiding, help me with my girlfriend and wife. So that was good. But we had some rigging, we did some stunts, we did all this different stuff.

But the further we got away from our core business of rocks on the wall and getting paid for people climbing on those rocks, the more we diluted our margin. So I do think it is really important to continue to grow and expand and innovate your business and push into new things.

But I do see as much has changed about backbone over the years.

When we get back to paid and earned media and the potency there and really get laser focus on doing great work for our partners, that's when we're at our best. Those are the markers and those are some learnings that definitely ring true.

There's a lot of bright shiny objects out there and you got to push and you got to continue to evolve, but respecting and appreciating your core business. And I think about that on the PR side of things here, PR's had a lot of pressure over the years. Is like PR a dirty word?

Did you say the P word or is PR dead? Is it earned media? Is it strategic communications? How does affiliate fit in? How does influencer fit in? I think there's a good conversation there.

But I'm starting to see earned media and PR as futuristic as algorithms and AI has become. That the impact of earned media and how it manifests is I think more important to bake in early on in, go to market early on in campaign ideation.

And we're starting to see that and appreciate that. So just as maybe PR for our business has gone through a bunch of different cycles, it seems to be coming back a little bit and as relevant as ever.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:41:05.240 - 00:41:23.240

Do dirtbags still stand a chance, do you think? You know, like I know an early client for backbone was cloudvale, right?

Just a bunch of dirt bags bringing a new, right, the classic, like classic dirt bags from Jackson Hole. Just bringing a new product to market and making. Can that still happen? Do you think there's still hope for that kind of stuff to happen?

Greg Williams

00:41:24.440 - 00:42:22.980

Yeah, absolutely. I do think just the ability to go Direct to consumer. The ability to get your message out there.

One of the client visits I'm most looking forward to this summer are our great friends in a bunch of dirt bags in Lander, Wyoming. Maven Optics. They are killing it. Direct to consumer optics brand born out a little bit. Born out of Brunton.

Mike Lilligen and Brendan and Kate up there are great friends. But we're just driving up there. We're camping at Wild Iris. Along the way we'll climb, we'll do a Via Ferrata.

Might get out on the river a little bit, but go up there and have meetings and that, that is just, I think just the spirit of dirt bags. Authentic connections to communities. Absolutely. I still identify as a climber, remember sleeping all over the place.

So I believe in dirt bags and I think there's.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:42:25.120 - 00:42:40.960

Love it. Well, Greg, we are unfortunately getting near the end of the end of the podcast now.

I think we've covered some great stuff and I've certainly learned a lot.

In the meantime though, if people want to get in touch with you, if they want to work with Backbone, you know, what's the best way for them to do that?

Greg Williams

00:42:42.080 - 00:43:04.900

Yeah, no problem. Our website's easy to find. Backbone Media, we're all over LinkedIn just in terms of backbone. Myself easy to find.

So if anybody wants to reach out, talk about out the industry, do something informational on how we work, we're always happy to do so. So love catching up today. Doug, thanks for the opportunity to jump on the podcast.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:43:04.900 - 00:43:16.100

Great. Well now, here you go.

Here's your last question and it's a question we always do at the end of this podcast and it is simply, and you can interpret this any way you want. What gives you hope?

Greg Williams

00:43:17.540 - 00:44:01.660

It is what gives me hope is the people and my lens. It's a little backbone oriented.

But I am meeting kind of the next gener of leaders and their worldview and what they care about and how potent they are in terms of being able to contribute to our business or society. But that is 20 years in at Backbone, it's the people, it's continuing to meet them. We've got a new thing going on, a rock club here at Backbone.

So I need all the help I can get building any muscle possible. So we're out there rucking and I'm getting to know these young crews.

So it's the next generation of people here at Backbone and beyond that, 100% tons of confidence and hope.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:44:01.980 - 00:44:15.100

Amazing. And it's great to get to see those people firsthand. Really building and making their careers as well.

Well, Greg, it was amazing to have you on, really get to know you a little better, know the work you're doing, and pick your brain. Thank you so much.

Greg Williams

00:44:15.420 - 00:44:16.620

Okay. Thanks, Doug.

Doug Schnitzspahn

00:44:19.580 - 00:44:40.710

Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight, llc.

Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com our producers today were David Karsad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Genser. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some. Thanks for listening.