Whatever Time We Have Left, Let's Do Good With It
- colin7931
- Aug 5
- 30 min read
Doug begins today's episode with an exploration of the profound cultural shift from outright denial to a pervasive apathy regarding environmental issues. But he also offers a more hopeful narrative, showcasing significant victories in conservation, such as the surge in dam removals across the United States.
Doug is then joined by Robert Hanna, a descendant of the renowned environmentalist John Muir. Robert talks about the ongoing struggle for conservation, emphasizing the necessity of collaboration across all communities.
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Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:00.160 - 00:05:13.750
Hey everyone. Before we get started today, I want.
To thank you for listening to Open Container and ask that you please subscribe to the show by clicking Follow on the podcast app you're listening to right now. Following the podcast is the best way to ensure that we will continue to crack open the container every single week.
Thank you and let's start the show Just today I saw news that the Environmental Protection Agency is now simply the antithesis of its name. The agency will no longer accept that climate change is real, a fact that at this point goes beyond any reasonable argument.
The only way to deny climate change now is if you simply don't want. It to be real.
And even then, there's been a shift from denial to apathy. People no longer argue that climate change isn't happening. They just stop caring.
They fall back on absurd analogies like the Earth has always gone through ice ages or climate change is natural.
Maybe that feels like winning argument if you don't want to face the fact that pollutants and carcinogens we keep releasing are not part of some natural evolution, but the result of a species with too much power and too little responsibility. Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. I'm a journalist, writer, and overall lover of the outdoors.
I've fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I've climbed New Hampshire's Mount Washington in the moonlight.
On this podcast, we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Let's get some all too often, I.
Find myself having to say that as an environmentalist, as a conservationist, as someone who cares about the planet and the health not just of ecosystems but of our own species, we are always losing. It's a tough fact, but one we must keep fighting against. Every day we lose more habitat, more trees are cut down, water and air. Are polluted, and worst of all, more.
And more laws meant to help protect us and repair the damage we've done through ignorance or greed are being rescinded. Honestly, what's been done to our regulatory agencies should be a crime.
Putting the people now running the Environmental Protection Agency in charge is like putting Ted Bundy in charge of a Girl Scout camp.
But I also look to the winds, like the removal of the dam on the Elwha river in Olympic national park and the return of wild salmon runs to that magical spot where native people have fished for generations. In fact, there's a surge of dam removals happening across the United States in 2023.
The U.S. removed 80 dams across 23 states, freeing up 1,160 miles of river. In 2024, 2,408 dams were removed, reconnecting over 2,528 miles of river. And in August 2024, the Klamath river. In southern Oregon and California was finally freed. Four dams removed and over 6,000 salmon.
Migrated upstream into this newly opened habitat. Almost immediately, other removals are underway too. The Kinneytown Dam in Connecticut will be demolished.
The Milltown Dam on the St. Croix river was removed in 2023. The Scott and Cape Horn dams will be removed in Northern California, restoring the Eel River Dam removal works.
A 2025 Cornell led study found that within three years of removing a small dam on an upstate New York stream, upstream and downstream habitats became nearly indistinguishable with water quality, habitat structure and microinvertebrate communities fully restored.
The research demonstrates the resilience of nature to recover from imperiled states, said Jeremy Dietrich, principal aquatic ecologist at the New York State Water Resources Institute. We can show that the potential is there to reproduce these results at other sites. We're finding innovative answers.
In Norway, a submerged turbine was invented and installed on the Sodelschlagen River. It floats within the current, harnessing the river's energy while leaving habitat undisturbed.
What we need is more thinking like this and what we need to do is come together to forget about political ideologies that blind us to the reality of what's happening to the planet and to find solutions that work for everyone. It's a simple concept.
One more potential win on the horizon would be the removal of the o' Shaughnessy Dam, which flooded and destroyed the Hetch Hetchy Valley in Yosemite National Park.
The creation of that dam sparked a monumental fight between the corrupt government of San Francisco and environmentalists like John Muir, who saw through the rhetoric and believed deeply in preservation. Muir famously said, everybody needs beauty as.
Robert Hanna
00:05:13.750 - 00:05:22.310
Well as bread, places to play in and pray in where nature may heal and cheer and give strength to body and soul alike.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:05:23.030 - 00:06:59.920
That ideal is as true and within reach today as it was over a hundred years ago when Muir was fighting to preserve what remained of the American landscape while the greed of robber barons and industry threatened to consume it all. We're facing that fight again now.
We need new heroes like Muir, like Teddy Roosevelt, leaders and politicians who want to create a lasting and beautiful legacy. The fight over Hetch Hetchy was the loss of Muir's life, and some believe that Losing it contributed to his death.
But Muir's legacy and vision live on. And here's the thing. We can still win despite all the losses, despite the inevitability of setbacks.
When it comes to conservation, climate, and the fate of our planet, there are wins. We need to celebrate them and continue working toward more of them.
My guest today is John Muir's great, great grandson, and he has built his own legacy in conservation, communication and politics. With over 20 years of leadership experience. Robert Hanna is known for his results. Driven approach and gift for candid, meaningful conversations.
His work has shaped national conversations, influenced.
Public opinion, and driven multiple legislative successes, including renaming the highway leading to the south entrance of Yosemite national park the Buffalo Soldier Memorial Highway. He's also a podcaster, host of the Robert Hanna Show. So let's open the container with Robert Hanna.
Robert Hanna
00:07:02.400 - 00:08:24.630
I think a lot of this started around. I think it was 2011. That's when the state of California, due to budget cuts, announced 70 state parks were going to be put on the closure list.
And what's crazy is that time in my life was just, I wasn't yet in the legislature, but I was in corporate America, and due to the mortgage crisis that just wiped everything out.
So it was at the same time list came out, and I soon found myself just kind of going up and down the state of California advocating on behalf of keeping these places open. One of the parks that was on that list was one that's always been very dear to me, and that's Mono Lake.
I spent a lot of time in the Eastern Sierra as a kid, and I just, I didn't know what to do. I just knew you had to do something. So that's kind of where the journey there and being a part of that effort was incredible.
Luckily, at the very end, we were able to remove the parks from the list. And that kind of really started that. And then from there it was just kind of like things started falling in place, working with different efforts.
And so it just, I mean, things just started happening. And I just found myself, once I got out there, more and more people wanted to reach out and just took it from there.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:08:25.160 - 00:08:59.120
That's great to see you working on those initiatives too, that are, you know, really putting into prominence people and groups that were erased in the past. Right. It seems like now we're seeing this movement to push back against that. Right. I know.
Like here in Colorado, we had Mount Evans change to Mount Blue sky, and now all of a sudden there's a group that wants to change it back. What are the kind of first steps to get people to agree on that kind of project.
Especially if you're experiencing some pushback and especially if that pushback is behind the scenes and maybe racially motivated or has bad intentions behind it.
Robert Hanna
00:08:59.760 - 00:09:58.650
I think the first step is having a conversation. And that goes back to what we talked about. You have to have a conversation with folks and you have to explain why it's important to you.
We all have walked through life with different backgrounds, different perspectives, different experiences, but you have to be able to communicate why something is important to you, because it's at that point where that person is hopefully willing to listen and then want to engage a little more in the conversation so that you can eventually get to the point where you work on a solution together. It's fairly simple. And that's. That's sometimes the crazy thing to see, like why things don't get done.
It's a lot of times because it's the way people go about either not having the conversation, they're scared of having a conversation, or they're scared of what people might think. And so you really have to be just really passionate and follow your heart, and then it's a lot easier.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:58.890 - 00:10:17.450
I guess the most difficult thing then is, as you said, you push something through.
And for the people who resisted it, is there any way to get them to come around eventually or get them to feel like this just wasn't a loss, that now they're gonna have to fight even harder against you and make you do something or, you know, how do you work with that kind of backlash?
Robert Hanna
00:10:18.020 - 00:11:10.330
Yeah, I mean, it's looking at the chessboard. It's understanding that in an accomplishment where you're successful, it's the public that has rallied around and said this needs to happen.
So you always got to understand, I mean, there's always going to be people with a difference of opinion or ideas, but it's looking at the chessboard and saying that if they come around and try to do it again, they know what they'll be met with. And we saw that recently with the. The effort to sell millions of acres of public land. That's not gonna be the last time that happens.
But what you see is these places mean so much to people that you will be met with an avalanche of passion and people that even if they have differences, they will set them aside for the places that they love and for what they believe in.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:10.570 - 00:11:27.770
And that, I think was something we saw happen so beautifully with the resistance to the public land sell off. Right. We saw tree huggers and atvers and hunters and, you know, vegan hikers, you know, all wanted the same thing and all work together. Right.
And is that's the kind of thing you work for? Huh?
Robert Hanna
00:11:28.010 - 00:12:15.750
It was amazing to see how fast. And that was the best way to describe the power of what these places mean to us. You had people from all walks of life.
You had hunters, anglers, climbers, recreationists. They all came together and said, absolutely not.
And to be honest, when you look at how that went down and the effort, I mean, anytime you cut out the public from a conversation like that and try to shove something through, that shows you what you're up against right there. That's where you just have to believe that there's still a lot of good.
And that is where it's so important to put your differences aside and speak with one voice.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:19.670 - 00:12:39.130
I think in conservation, you know, over the past decades, certainly we've seen it become polarized politically in a way that's probably not realistic when it comes to how people are. Right. So do you think this is a good step towards conservation, maybe being slightly taken out of political polarization?
Robert Hanna
00:12:39.530 - 00:13:23.870
I hope so, because this conversation should never be about politics. Our public lands belong to every single one of us.
And I think that between what we talked about, the inability to have a conversation or in some situations, not want to have a conversation, and just looking at things from left or right, I mean, it's. You gotta stop, because it's not gonna get anything done. I mean, it should be. We should be team human, and that's what I'm saying. It's.
We're not always gonna get along, and we're not always gonna agree, but when you have a mutual respect for one another, it just makes the conversation easier. I would love to see politics being taken more out of the conversation around public lands, parks, things like that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:24.430 - 00:13:35.630
What do you think we can do to help move it away from that? How can we, you know, change that conversation and change what our politicians, how they see public lands, how they see conservation?
Robert Hanna
00:13:35.950 - 00:14:20.540
I think what we're doing right now, I think what you've done with open container, I think having conversations, that's how we get to know each other. That's how we amplify the stories of why these places mean so much to us.
And I think that that can then lead to the next step of being on the next podcast and then talking to the next person and then getting to a point of speaking with your public officials and letting them know why these places are important to you.
So I think that what we're doing right now, I think this is the best way for every single one of us to throw out there these things so that we build an ecosystem of just park lovers, public land lovers.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:14:20.940 - 00:14:36.970
I love that.
And from your experience and your ability as someone who can kind of, you know, work with lots of people and have conversations, how would you suggest listeners or people who are really passionate and some guys can't control that passion, how would you suggest they start these kind of conversations?
Robert Hanna
00:14:37.849 - 00:15:19.090
I think sometimes it's scary. Obviously, subscribing to a podcast that you like, following people on social media, I think things like that.
I think that people don't understand that once you do something as easy as that, the rest kind of starts falling in place. Message people. People hit me up all the time.
I've been able to work with so many people who I never met just because they saw or heard something that they liked that I did or heard something that really just hit them. And I think that that's the biggest step is just reaching out to folks a closed mouth doesn't get fed, just throw out there and you never know.
I mean, what's the worst that can happen?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:15:23.970 - 00:15:38.370
Not only are you a passionate conservationist on your own and you get stuff done, but you also have a very strong legacy behind you as a descendant of John Muir. And how has been a descendant of John Muir, how are you connected to him and how has that shaped your own life?
Robert Hanna
00:15:38.850 - 00:17:37.850
So my grandfather Robert, who I was named after, was Muir's grandson. Muir had two daughters with his wife Louie. His two daughters were Wanda and Helen. Wanda was the eldest.
And when Wanda went to Berkeley, she met Tom, Hannah, and that's how they met. And then together they had six grandchildren, all of Mir's grandchildren. And then my grandfather Robert was number four.
So that's how the connection came.
And it's funny because growing up, there's not a lot of kids that are really interested in their great and great great grandparents and things like that. What I do remember growing up, I would always have to keep going to, like, certain events or going to things.
And my mom would make me take photos next to a statue of Muir. And I remember just saying, like, mom, like, who is this guy and what are we doing?
I remember we went to the state capitol when I was, I think 10 or 11 years old. And I think the governor then was Pete Wilson, and he had established John Muir Day in California.
And I just remember standing up there and shaking his hand, and I was just like, mom, like, what? Who is this like, what am I doing here? Yeah. It's not like we talked a lot about him growing up. I heard a lot of family stories.
That's what I really remember. And what's funny is, I'll tell you a quick, funny story.
It was in junior high when I saw him in a history book with the famous photo of him standing next to President Theodore Roosevelt in Yosemite. And somehow my teacher at the time found out that I was related to him. And he actually called my mom, and then she confirmed it.
And then from that point forward, he started treating me totally different. I was like, oh. I was like, this is great. You know, I'm going to. I'm going to be able to get better grades just because of this.
So that's when I started kind of putting everything together and understanding the connection and then his work, and then, of course, a lot of times going to Yosemite and all around California. So I grew up learning about him in a different way than most, but that's where the connection is.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:17:38.340 - 00:17:48.340
So you, you know, you probably don't like it, but every once in a while you can probably drop the Muir card, right? You get off if you need it. Need a little extra weight, you can say, like, hey, hey, I'm a. I'm a. I'm a descendant of John Muir.
Robert Hanna
00:17:49.380 - 00:17:55.060
I try not to, but it's come up so much that I think people just know by now. But. Yeah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:17:55.220 - 00:17:58.180
Can you tell us some of those stories about him from the family or.
Robert Hanna
00:17:58.260 - 00:20:19.330
What people don't realize is how incredible of a businessman he was. That's honestly what drew me a lot earlier in my professional career when I was in corporate America. His business mind was incredible.
And a lot of these documents and everything still exists today. They're in the family's collection. People just don't realize that.
You know, when he was living in Martinez, he took full operations of his father in law's fruit farm. And by the time he, I mean, he was making about 250,000 a year starting in the late 1890s. So that's a lot of money today.
But I mean, it was a lot, a lot of money.
And after he had passed away, my great grandma was trying to put his estate and everything in order, and he had just like $50,000 set aside in all these different banks that she was finding. So he was an incredible businessman, but you would never know it because he lives so simply.
And so a lot of times people just don't realize how incredible of a businessman he was. The other thing too, is he was a very loving and devoted father.
And so a lot of times he would make sure when his children were young to take them around what is today Mount Wanda behind the park site there in Martinez, and he would just kind of explain to them that talk to the flowers and things like that. So he introduced his daughters to that in a way where it wasn't pushed upon them, but just kind of a part of their life.
And a lot of people don't realize that later on, they started joining him on his trips in Yosemite. So there are many photos out there, all you could find on the Internet of him and his daughters in and around Yosemite.
That ultimately is the passion that they developed themselves, which then my great grandparents, Tom and Wanda, passed along to my grandpa and his siblings. And the freedom in which they were raised with is amazing.
I mean, there's stories where they would send the older siblings, starting at the age of like, 12 or 13 years old, by horseback from Martinez to Yosemite by themselves every. Every summer. Yeah, you'd get arrested for that today, probably.
But that's the freedom that existed in the family that was passed along through his teachings to his children.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:19.650 - 00:20:30.060
And did you still feel that as a child, you know, from your grandparents and your dad and, you know, was that legacy still of seeing the world in this really acute observational way and caring way?
Robert Hanna
00:20:30.140 - 00:21:32.920
I mean, we certainly went camping a lot and early trips to Yosemite and things like that. There was never any pressure of legacy bearing or anything like that for the most part. I mean, the entire Hannah family is very quiet, close.
There wasn't a lot of, like. It's not like we. We sat around all the time and talked about John Muir. It was more from my great grandma Wanda and them that those stories.
And what was cool, though, is that my grandfather Robert, his two older siblings I met, and these are people who knew Muir. They were like 7 or 8 years old when he passed away, so they really under, like, were able to pass down a lot of those stories.
There's a photo of Muir with three of them, and they all have their hands up, and they were able to tell the story that the reason that their hands were up is every time that he'd be around, he'd have, like, candies in his pocket, and that's why they would always run up so in those photos. So that was cool to kind of connect all of those things for sure.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:21:33.080 - 00:21:51.560
You mentioned Muir and Roosevelt together. It's such a powerful legacy that Muir has left on this country.
And I think it only grows right with the Sierra Club and with an understanding of preservation of these places. And from your perspective, how big do you see that legacy being and continuing to grow?
Robert Hanna
00:21:51.720 - 00:23:21.580
I think every single one of us draws inspiration from different things. For me, of course, his life and his legacy of action, I think that's the biggest thing that I've ever taken away from my great, great grandfather.
I've always appreciated that he was a man of action. He dedicated his entire life to something. It's inspiring.
Not too long ago, a good friend of mine, Jamie Fox, who lives in Martinez, California, Jamie, 10 years ago, started a grassroots effort to save 300 acres in Martinez, California, that was slated to be developed. It's those types of stories which sometimes things happen that you can't explain.
Through that process, we found out that that acreage was once owned by Muir. That led to an incredible grassroots effort where just a few months ago, the city of Martinez saved it to not be developed.
And now it's 300 acres of public land in Martinez, California. And it was just kind of cool because at the dedication ceremony, Jamie came walking up with a statue of Muir.
It's so amazing to see people still to this day are inspired by his action, his work. That's what I mean. Every single one of us has something special, a legacy that we could pull from.
When you're so passionate about something and you dedicate your life to something, what wrong could come of that?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:23:25.340 - 00:23:29.620
How do you think we can integrate both the good and the bad from.
Robert Hanna
00:23:29.620 - 00:25:39.160
Our ancestors Again, it all turns back to what we're doing right now, through conversation and not being afraid to have it.
Listen, all of those conversations around Muir, those are conversations that I had been having with my family for so many years before it really came out mainstream.
So we had already talked about it as a family, and I had been able to talk to many different historians, and even on my podcast, I talked to Dr. Carolyn Finney. That's how you solve those types of issues around having conversations.
That then gave me the ability to start my own journey based on the research and things that I could find. And it was through those conversations and research where I was able to find things out.
Like, Muir was very close to Charles Lummis, one of the very first famous Native American activists in California, who created an organization called the Sequoia League, and they were dedicated to the civil rights of Native Americans. That's where I learned that not only was he close friends with Charles Lummis, he was one of the original members.
And dues paying member of the Sequoia League and so was his daughter Helen.
And then that's how I was able to find other things where on the famous Harriman expedition, there was a point where they had come to a village and many of the people on the ship started taking totem poles and different artifacts. And he was furious and he stood out against it and he was just so angry.
And there's also another documented case that I learned from the John Muir National Historic Site where he was at a party with, I think, his in laws and there was a member of the military there. And Muir in the middle of the party confronted him about the brutal policy against Native Americans.
So as much as was brought to light, a lot of stuff is not.
But it all goes back to, it's okay to have conversations because that's what leads to discussing it, coming together to find things that we can work together on today.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:25:40.040 - 00:26:07.820
And it seems so important. I mean, that's the only path to take, right? And we're at a time now when people are trying to.
I don't know what they think they're going to achieve by saying, you know, that we can't teach dark parts of history, that we have to name mountains back to people who are bad figures. And, you know, this, this movement right now, it just doesn't seem like it'll work.
That it seems like it's much more truly peaceful and healing even to talk about the bad stuff with the good and look at the complexity of it all.
Robert Hanna
00:26:07.900 - 00:26:38.730
I agree. I've had so many different conversations that always end in good, but it's just because we had the conversation.
And the biggest thing you have to understand is where I said earlier, we all kind of. We're all on this spinning marble in the middle of a galaxy trying to figure stuff out.
The moment you realize that we're not really in charge of much and we're just kind of part of something, and you don't talk over people and talk down to people. That's where true conversation lies and that's where true difference can be made.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:26:38.890 - 00:27:00.040
One of my favorite Muir quotes, I think it's sometimes misquoted, but the exact one is actually this. When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to. Everything else in the universe.
I love that. And it works for ecology, right? But I think it's also a really broad philosophical idea.
How do you see that playing out in your life, in your experience in our society?
Robert Hanna
00:27:00.760 - 00:27:12.040
That's a good quote. I think what I take from it Is that everything that we do today speaks to all future generations. That's what I take from that quote.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:27:12.690 - 00:27:39.570
Speaking to future generations too.
I know that during the height when the public land sell off was still being contested, that you worked together with one of Theodore Roosevelt's ancestors, I believe, Kumar Roosevelt iii, and the two of you kind of reconnected, had that photograph of Muir and Roosevelt together. How did you two come to work together? And how, how much do you think you can do in the future?
And how much sway do you think you can have using your ancestors to speak to people who might not want to listen? Now?
Robert Hanna
00:27:40.880 - 00:29:14.360
Kermit and I connected a few years back when there was the effort going on to reduce the size of Bears Ears National Monument. I forget how the connection happened, but I think it basically just happened with. I think it was me just reaching out.
I had known somebody who had known him, so just through mutual connections, I think I just emailed him and I said, listen, our family hasn't worked together in over a hundred years. Here's what's going on. And he immediately just snapped back, said, let's do it. So from there we wrote a couple of joint op EDS about that.
And then just recently, we were working on another one. And right before we finished is when they pulled the effort to sell the public lands. I think it just goes to show. I mean, that's.
It goes back to not being afraid to reach out and have a conversation and then something powerful happening from it.
I think the one thing that I will say is in our conversations most recently about the efforts to sell off the millions of acres, he and I were having some good conversations, just about. We stood firm with every single person out there battling that effort. That was one thing that was really cool to see.
Again, so many people from different walks of life, but we were shoulder to shoulder with them. You often wonder what those conversations with Muir and Roosevelt were like in Yosemite.
It was just kind of cool to be kind of doing it again a hundred years later around parks and just wondering what the two of them probably looked down and saw with their great, great grandkids fighting the good fight.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:29:14.680 - 00:29:30.520
Yeah.
And I mean, you really think about the vision they had that, you know, obviously is still so popular today and has really formed the foundation of how we think of ourselves as Americans and what we think of America as being. Right. They really, they had a vision that's only expanded.
Robert Hanna
00:29:30.520 - 00:29:42.930
I think, and I can tell you this, that neither one of them would have ever supported anybody or any effort who would take our heritage and minimize it to budget items and real estate transactions?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:29:43.410 - 00:29:44.290
Hell, no.
Robert Hanna
00:29:45.970 - 00:29:47.250
So that's what I do know.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:29:47.490 - 00:29:59.440
Yeah. And what's going to live on in history, right?
I mean, the work that John Muir did, the work that Theodore Roosevelt did, that's the stuff that's going to live on in history. These cheap little efforts just to enrich a few people. There's no legacy in that.
Robert Hanna
00:29:59.920 - 00:30:09.280
Just as there was opposition back then, there's opposition today. So if, if the same things happen, I've always felt that the people will. Will rise up and do what's right.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:30:13.280 - 00:30:32.920
There's one other thing to talk about here that really connects to you that, that you've been doing recently, and that is the last battle of his life, was to try to stop the dam at Hetch Hetchee in Yosemite National Park. And I know you've been involved with the effort to get rid of that dam. Now tell us a bit about that. How long have you been involved?
Is there hope for it?
Robert Hanna
00:30:32.920 - 00:32:04.590
I've been involved in that conversation for over a decade. Met Sprech Rosecrans, the director of Restore Hetch Hetchy. Through those conversations.
The opportunity that we have to restore the Hetch Hetchy Valley inside Yosemite national park is the greatest opportunity of our time today.
A lot of people know the story, but for those that don't, the Hetch Hetchy Valley is a valley that's located inside Yosemite national park, which was Yosemite Valley's twin. And when you go there, you can see the similarities, the beauty.
But over a hundred years ago, Congress gave the city of San Francisco permission to destroy the valley and flood it under hundreds of feet of water.
The opportunity that we have today is to bring that valley back to life, give it back to the American people, and make sure that every single person who relies on the water and power of the Tuolumne river would not lose either or. So San Francisco has nine reservoirs in its system. And simply by storing the water outside of the park throughout different.
I mean, there's different means, there's different ideas. That's the opportunity that we have on hand. There is no other place in the world to give the people of our country another Yosemite Valley.
And it's right there and it's waiting.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:04.910 - 00:32:15.320
And the whole thing was pretty tragic a hundred years ago, right? It's really. It really was not popular. There was no real reason for it. Right. It really shouldn't have happened at the time, even 100%.
Robert Hanna
00:32:15.480 - 00:32:31.720
And it was so unpopular and so bad that after it happened, the President and Congress said, this can never happen again. And so that ultimately is what led to the steps that were taken to create the Organic act in the National Park Service.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:32.120 - 00:32:35.000
Oh, really? Huh. What does that act do? How important is it?
Robert Hanna
00:32:35.480 - 00:32:43.970
The Organic act is huge in the environmental world. But that's ultimately what happened was that's when they said this could never happen again.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:44.210 - 00:32:44.610
Right.
Robert Hanna
00:32:45.090 - 00:34:03.320
To have the opportunity in our time to restore the Hetch Hetchy Valley. I mean, you're talking about you'd be able to modernize an outdated water system. You'd be able to make sure that nobody loses their water or power.
You would be able to create so many jobs, the economic boom that it would bring to that region alone.
And then through the process of this, Hetch Hetchy would be an international classroom for every single person to come and witness something that will never happen again in our lifetime. How could you say no to that, knowing that nobody loses their water, nobody loses their power?
There have been so many studies on this, and every single one of them says it could absolutely be done. President Ronald Reagan, Secretary of the Interior, Don Hodel, he started it in the 80s, and then since then, it's been talked about.
George Bush, I believe, was talking about it here in California when Governor Schwarzenegger was in office. He put out a study. Every single study says that it could be done, no problem. You got to think big.
We stop thinking big, we let fear and elites convince ourselves that it can't be done, and that's why it lays there.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:34:03.480 - 00:34:06.360
So what is standing in the way? What's stopping this from happening?
Robert Hanna
00:34:07.000 - 00:34:49.680
Politicians.
San Francisco refuses to have this conversation, and for whatever reason, has worked with the Park Service to create restrictions on the public that don't exist anywhere else. You can't even go in and touch the water. They don't allow you to touch the water. There's no camping around it.
The city elites have three cabins overlooking this incredible valley.
So in a time that nobody can get reservations into Yosemite, the elite of San Francisco and all the people connected to them are able to go into these. These cabins that. It's just. It's crazy to me.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:34:50.160 - 00:35:03.850
Yeah.
I had learned that on your podcast, on your excellent podcast, which I think everyone should listen to with Spreck Rosecrans, about the cabins in San Francisco having really. The city is the only people who can enjoy this place even now. Right.
Robert Hanna
00:35:04.250 - 00:35:30.310
It's crazy. It's a disgrace. And those are the restrictions that are in place today.
And the other thing is in 1914, the Raker act is what ultimately gave them the ability to do it. In 1914, the Raker act said San Francisco only has to pay the government $30,000 to use. Hetch Hetchy. Well, do you know how much they still pay today?
$30,000.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:35:30.710 - 00:35:45.750
God.
Wow.
And I mean, if we get this done, you were saying it'd be a once in a lifetime thing, but it could it also make people realize that some of these outdated projects really aren't doing any good and we can move beyond them 100%.
Robert Hanna
00:35:46.070 - 00:36:21.320
If you can go back and correct one of the largest historic wrongs in history, why wouldn't you do it just on that base? So to be able to do it and make sure that nobody loses water and power, then why wouldn't you do it on that base either?
And then you have all these studies saying that it could be done, no problem. Why wouldn't you do it on that?
Why wouldn't you put it all together and say, we have the greatest opportunity in the world to do something that every single generation will look back and say, thank God they acted like, what are we doing? We used to think big. That's the greatest thing that we could do right now. I'm ready.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:36:21.560 - 00:36:50.180
I love that idea that, yeah, we did used to think big.
You know, I look back on a lot of this great, you know, conservation legislation and people thinking about legacy, people thinking about future generations, you know, as often as is often said, you know, some of the greatest environmental legislation was. Passed during the Nixon administration. So it doesn't have to be tied to politics or political parties.
What is stopping us from creating these great legacies? Why do we have a such pushback. You know, for small thinking?
Robert Hanna
00:36:50.580 - 00:38:27.790
I think a lot of it is just fear. I mean, do you know how many people that I've had the conversation with Hetch Hetchy about that just look at me like I'm nuts. But that's okay.
I could tell you some of the conversations that I've had where they're like, wow, that's what's going to lead to it happening. I don't care what people think about me. I have zero interest in fitting in. I have an inner compass and I will follow it in whatever I feel is right.
That's it. So I think that it is scary to speak up against powerful elites in San Francisco.
It is scary to speak up because you're worried about what this organization's going to think or this person's going to think.
And that going back to my great great grandfather When I studied the battle of Hetch Hetchy, it gave me even more of an appreciation for him in the sense that he put everything on the line. The most powerful people in this country did everything that they could to destroy his credibility, to destroy him, to silence him.
He lost friends over it. It divided the Sierra Club at the very end, in many ways, was just standing and swinging by himself.
And that's what it takes sometimes, because he just knew. He knew that it was wrong. He gave it everything. So why should we not apply that in our own lives?
If you believe in something so much, who cares what people think? I could care less about any of these people who I don't even know.
Anyway, that's what history will remember is the people that stood up and spoke up and came together and brought others along with them.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:38:27.790 - 00:38:41.150
And how beautiful would it be if, you know, this failure at the end of his life, if over a hundred years later, that his sticking to it and fighting for it, his residence, if you helped push it over the line and get rid of this thing, I.
Robert Hanna
00:38:41.150 - 00:39:16.610
Think it would be incredible.
But whatever role I can play in it, for me it's important to at least have those conversations and continue to have that conversation so that the next person could talk about it and then just build an unstoppable coalition.
But again, I wouldn't even be considering this if I knew that all of the people who rely on the Tuolumne river would still continue to get their water. And they will. Nobody's going to lose their water. Nobody's going to lose their power. There are nine reservoirs in that system.
There are things that we could do today to 100% make sure that all of that is whole.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:39:21.090 - 00:39:44.930
I love that too, because it's solution based. Right. We see so many arguments in this day and age, just seem to be ideology based. Right. I have this ideology and that's the way it's going to be.
But here's something that's ideologically based. We want to have this beautiful valley, we should have this beautiful valley, you know?
Yet it also is solution based where we're not going to lose the water, we're not going to lose the power. Everyone's going to be taken care of. I mean, that's what we need.
Robert Hanna
00:39:45.090 - 00:39:53.090
Yeah, a hundred percent. But see, a lot of people don't frame it that way. Just framing it that way invites others to be a part of the conversation.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:39:53.490 - 00:39:57.090
And who do we need to have conversations with to see this through?
Robert Hanna
00:39:57.590 - 00:40:23.750
Well, it has to be an act of Congress to reverse it. Because it was Congress who did it. So we need Congress to amend the Raker act, and that's what would ultimately start the process.
And then the important conversations of the stakeholders, you know, the vision of how would then start. At that point, it has to be an act of Congress to do it, because it was the Raker act that gave San Francisco the permission to destroy the Valley.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:40:24.100 - 00:40:31.460
Interesting. So again, it's about putting pressure on, talking to, sending messages to people in Congress of either party.
Robert Hanna
00:40:32.020 - 00:40:34.420
Yeah. All starts with a conversation.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:40:35.780 - 00:40:37.700
And what are our chances of getting it done?
Robert Hanna
00:40:38.180 - 00:40:39.060
Who cares?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:40:39.940 - 00:40:41.020
I like that. Zero.
Robert Hanna
00:40:41.020 - 00:40:52.410
If you don't have the conversation, what are the odds of me getting hit by a bus? Whatever. Let's go. We're all spinning on this marble in the middle of a galaxy. So whatever time we have left, let's do good with it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:40:52.650 - 00:41:16.250
I certainly feel that way as well, Robert. Well, we've got one more question for you that we end the podcast for everyone.
But before that, if someone wants to work with you or if someone wants to hear your outstanding podcast, which I really enjoyed, how would they. How would they contact you? How would they find out more about Robert Hanna and what you do?
Robert Hanna
00:41:16.820 - 00:41:31.060
The website is hannaplus.com and then I'm super active on social media, so you can find me Hannahman247, Instagram, X, Facebook, YouTube, all of it. So reach out.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:41:31.300 - 00:41:42.500
Well, I'm sure glad that I reached out and really great to talk to you and hope that we can work together and have conversations together again and have other conversations with other people and continue to see this good work getting done.
Robert Hanna
00:41:42.500 - 00:42:01.590
I really appreciate it, and I really appreciate the platform in which you've given open container. This is the most important thing for us to all come together. That's how it happens. That's how we stay in touch.
That's how we find ways to work with each other. So I appreciate you and the time you've given me, and I loved every minute of it, so I appreciate it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:42:01.670 - 00:42:06.710
Great. Well, let me give you the final question then. And that is simply, what gives you hope?
Robert Hanna
00:42:08.950 - 00:42:57.750
I think seeing things like what happened when people rose together so quickly in the effort to prevent the millions of acres of public lands to be sold off. I think it's those moments. I think it's in all of the efforts that I've been a part of, there's this moment of togetherness.
And I think that I've seen it so many times. I know it's there, and I know that it can come out of just about every situation.
I love the fact that every single one of us walk through life with different passions, but it's those moments where you come together and create change. I think that's what keeps me going, knowing that it's there, having seen it and just wanted to see it again.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:42:58.710 - 00:43:06.780
Fantastic. Robert Hanna, a man who is a big advocate of conversations. I loved having this conversation with you. Thank you so much.
Robert Hanna
00:43:07.260 - 00:43:09.820
I appreciate you. Take care everybody.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:12.940 - 00:43:54.710
Thanks for imbibing open container production of Rock Fight llc.
Please take a second to follow our show and whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com learn more about Robert Hanna and check out his podcast@hannaplus.com if you want to learn more about this issue. I highly recommend Mark Reisner's Cadillac Desert. It is a crucial read to understand. The American West's water crisis.
It exposes the political maneuvering, government agency rivalries, and monumental engineering projects like dams that created our current reality. Our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some. Thanks for listening.
