Why Outdoor Brands Should Show Up At Outdoor Economy Conferences
- colin7931
- 3 hours ago
- 35 min read
Could Outdoor Economy Conferences be the future of industry gatherings?
Today on The Rock Fight, Colin sits down with returning guest Darren Josey (First Seed Sown, Founded Outdoors, Great Malden Outdoors) to unpack what went down at the National Outdoor Economy Conference in North Carolina.
Unlike trade shows, these conferences bring together governors, policymakers, state OREC directors, economic developers, tourism leaders, trail builders, and healthcare advocates. All of them focused on one thing: using outdoor recreation to strengthen communities and economies.
Colin & Darren discuss:
Why states like Tennessee and Arkansas are leading the charge on outdoor rec.
How outdoor economy conferences differ from traditional trade shows.
Why brands and retailers need to show up and what they stand to gain.
The untapped link between outdoor rec and healthcare costs.
How states are building infrastructure that literally creates new customers.
The opportunity for the outdoor industry to move beyond selling gear into shaping healthier, more resilient communities.
TL;DR: The outdoor industry can move beyond its bubble and spoiler: brands that get involved early may benefit the most.
Thanks for listening! The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight, LLC.
Sign up for NEWS FROM THE FRONT, Rock Fight's semi-weekly newsletter by heading to www.rockfight.co and clicking Join The Mailing List.
Please follow and subscribe to The Rock Fight and give us a 5 star rating and a written review wherever you get your podcasts.
Want to pick a fight with The Rock Fight? Send your feedback, questions, and comments to myrockfight@gmail.com.
Click Here To Listen On Your Favorite Podcast App
Or Just Click The Player Below!
Episode Transcript:
Producer Dave
00:00:01.600 - 00:00:48.850
This just in. Breaking News from the Rock Fight Rumors are swirling about a merger between two outdoor footwear titans.
While news blackout protocols are in effect, we are unable to name brands involved in the transaction. However, this hasn't stopped wild speculation from populating LinkedIn that a monster RE release is in the works.
Plans for a potential collab were recently spotted near a local watering hole. Adding to the frenzy, the new item, called Jungle Croc, comes in at 17ft long and contains nearly 900 pounds of proprietary closed cell resin Fury.
Placing the new shoe has reportedly been difficult as floor models consistently eat their smaller trail rutting neighbors, with some Jungle Crocs even taking down the occasional 10 inch logger boot or small child who's touching things they were told not to.
Colin True
00:00:49.730 - 00:09:50.210
Alright, while that may not be true, you know what is true? Ibex Merino is as home in your shop as Dale's in a drag bag.
We're talking authentic heritage, real sustainability, privately owned and of course premium performance that has become legendary.
From everyday essentials like the goatee to expedition ready pieces like the mammoth hoodie, Ibex has a premium Merino lair ready to outfit any of your customers. Schedule some time with the Ibex team at GOA Connect in Kansas City this November and Ibex Premium Merino.
And that's not a Croc welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True and today I'm going to take a look at the outdoor industry show that you may not be too familiar with. But first, some programming reminders.
Look, we never want you to miss an episode of the Rock Fight, so please click Follow on the podcast app that you're using right now to make sure that you don't Tomorrow, Doug Schnitzbaun opens the container like he always does on Tuesday.
Make sure you're following the leading outdoor culture podcast which is Open Container on your favorite podcast app where you're following the Rock Fight. And on Thursday you'll get an all new episode of Gear Abbey with host Shantae Salibair who answers all of your burning outdoor questions.
Be sure to also follow Gear Abby. And if you have a question for Gear Abby, send it to her@deargearabbymail.com and hopefully you'll hear us read it on the show live.
Lastly, if you want more from the Rock Fight Podcast Network, head to Rockfight Co and sign up for News from the Front, our semi weekly newsletter. And if you'd like to see video clips from our episodes, head over to Instagram and find us where we are rockflight Co and you can follow along.
All right, let's get into today's topic. And the topic for today's episode actually starts back in 2013 when Utah launched their State Office of Outdoor Recreation.
Now, Utah may be much maligned in the politics of the outdoor industry, but and for good reason.
But they were the first to recognize the economic contributions of recreating outside and made moves to support those contributions by making it an official part of their government.
Now, other states quickly followed suit, and in 2023, the confluence of states was formed to help other states get on board and form their own Office of Outdoor Recreation.
As these state offices opened, eventually came outdoor economy conferences, events where anyone interested in or invested in the economics of the outdoor economy, they would gather there.
And the difference here being that a traditional trade show is focused on the exchange of goods and money between brands and retailers, while an economy conference is about strategizing how to better use the outdoors to be an important integrated part of a state's economic health. These conferences are true examples of the nonpartisan nature of the outdoors.
And in fact, it's often red states like Utah and also Tennessee that can be seen as leaders on this topic.
Now when I found out about these economy conferences, I wondered, do they hold the key to the turmoil we face in our own event scene since the decline of outdoor retailer? You know, could these be the next evolution of the trade show? I mean, think about it.
One of the pushbacks against national trade events by many in the outdoor industry is that we don't need those kinds of events for business to get done anymore. That business and transactions happen at regional shows or via other methods. And our national shows are more for networking and marketing.
But at an economy conference, there are all sorts of different folks who show up beyond brands and retail, all looking at the economic impact of the outdoors.
It seems to me that increasing the breadth of the audience while retaining that focus could make for an interesting solution to our industry gatherings.
And by bringing the industry into events that are already attended by our local politicians, perhaps that's a way to pop the industry bubble and increase the focus on the larger value the outdoors can bring to our communities in addition to our economy.
Now, those may be easy dots to connect, and the reality is that these events are a relatively recent development that all pretty much occur within their established states. There is not yet one national office of Outdoor Rec or one national Outdoor economy conference. But maybe down the line, there's a there there.
So when I found out that my friend and founder of First Seed Sown, Darren Joosse, was heading to last week's North Carolina Outdoor Economy Conference, which is the biggest of these events, I knew I had to have him come on the Rock Fight to talk about it.
Because Darren comes from the industry, he's a former retailer and a former brand marketer who is using his experience in the industry to increase resources for BIPOC founders and creating community programs to get more people to understand the value of going outside.
Given that Darren has straddled the more commercial side of the outdoor industry and the more community focused side of the industry, I knew his perspective on why our industry should be paying more attention to the Orex as well as the Outdoor Economy conferences would be valuable and potentially validate my idea that these events could be our industry's future.
So Darren is here today and before I bring him in, a quick heads up that during our interview we said that there are 21 states with Orex when there are actually 24. So please ignore that mistake and all right, let's get this going.
Welcome back to the Rock Fight, where today we're talking about how the outdoor industry should be participating in Outdoor Economy Conferences with Darren Joosse. And that's coming up right after a few words from our sponsors.
Just in time for fall, we're happy to introduce a new sponsor to the Rock Flight Fial Raven. You know, fall doesn't get nearly enough credit for hiking, guys. Everyone thinks summer is the season, but for hikers, autumn is the real deal.
You got cooler days, you got quieter trails, you got more space. And fall is exactly what Fjall Raven's KEB Collection is built for.
Born from trekking in northern Sweden, their jackets, fleeces, trousers, they let you focus on nature, all specifically designed to make cold optional. You know, I don't really have, as we sit here today, any big hiking plans for fall.
So now I'm going to ask when I finish recording this, I'm actually going to go and look on a map and pick a big peak. I need to get a big peak in. I want to see some colors. I want to have to pull my fleece out at the summit because it's so much colder up top.
I want to have that fall hiking experience in the mountains and I'm going to do that this weekend.
All right, check out the whole KEB collection by clicking on link in the show notes or search for it when you head to fjallraven.com where your fall Begins couple of weeks ago here in the rock fight we learned that mosquitoes kill more humans every year than any other animal. And like the Dalai Lama once said, if you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
But I doubt the Dalai Lama was sleeping in the wilderpant from Royal Robins because the wilderpant, like everything else in Royal's MPT collection, has mosquito protection technology. Relying on protection through construction is the chemical free solution to mosquito free days in the outdoors.
I'm kind of anti chemical right now, I gotta say. In the outdoors I don't really like wearing sunscreen as much. I like to wear sun hoodies, you know, unless I'm surfing or something.
I like to throw on the sun hoodie. It's such a nice convenient thing. I don't feel the stickiness of sunscreen. Don't like wearing deet, right?
Don't want to like spray that all over my body to get, you know, keep the mosquitoes away.
So it's great to have the MPT collection as a resource here for that and you want, if you want to shop the entire MPT collection from Royal Robins and stay bite free in these waning days of summer, you head to royalrobbins.com today's episode of the Rock Fights presented by Lem Shoes. As the summer season wraps up, now is a great time to get ready for fall with Lems.
From easygoing slip ons and refined leather lace ups to tough trail ready boots, Lemz offers footwear for every occasion and their fit is unmatched. If you've never experienced the fit of a pair of Lems, well then you know, I just feel sorry for you. And let me tell you what I mean by that.
When you try on a pair of Lem's, they fit different. I'm not making this up. I took a giant dump on Lem's this past spring.
I didn't like what they were doing at first, but then I talked to the folks at Lem's, they sent me some shoes. I am not lying. They're honestly some of my favorite footwear I've ever worn. The fit is different. You try it on.
There is a different fit to these shoes. They are built with comfort, durability and versatility at the core.
Their collection is ready to take you wherever the season leads and with fresh, exciting styles just around the corner. Be sure to stay tuned. But in the meantime, head to lemshoes.com right now to get your feet into the best fitting shoe you've ever worn.
Hey, everyone, before we keep going here, I need to tell you about our teammates at Darby Communications.
Like I've been telling you, if you run an outdoor, an endurance or an active lifestyle brand, there is no better PR and digital marketing belay partner or drinking buddy than Darby. They can help your business reach new heights, and they might just keep you from falling on your ass.
Since we started working with Darby, more and more people and this is an important point now. Guys, I want you to hear me on this. More and more people have reached out to us here at the Rock Fight because of that messaging.
Look, guys, I'm dead serious. If they can help us, they can help anybody. Hit them up@darbycommunications.com. do it today.
All right, we're here today with the owner of First Seed Sown, Darren Joosse. First Seed Sown. We're doing, you know, support for BIPOC founders in the outdoor and active space. You know, founded the Great Malden Outdoor Project.
I mean, dude, what aren't you doing? You're a returning champion on the Rock Fight. You've been on the show before.
Darren Josey
00:09:50.370 - 00:10:01.570
I appreciate it. I'll also say the blazer that you sent fits really good. The gold blazer. It's really, really nice. I can't wait to go. Where. Where's our canton?
We don't have Canton. It's probably Denver, right? Probably.
Colin True
00:10:01.730 - 00:10:08.130
How dare you, sir. How dare you place the Rock Fight hall of Fame in Denver, Colorado? That would never happen.
Darren Josey
00:10:08.620 - 00:10:11.660
Hey, the Basketball hall of Fame is in Massachusetts. That's where everyone thinks about, right?
Colin True
00:10:11.820 - 00:10:13.580
That's true. Yeah, Springfield, baby.
Darren Josey
00:10:13.820 - 00:10:19.020
Yeah. Invented here. So we'll probably do that for rock climbing, too. So it should probably just be in Springfield as well.
Colin True
00:10:19.260 - 00:10:27.260
How did you get a. How did you get the blazer with us? It's only your second time on the show, though. That's a little concerning. I got to talk to the team.
You know, send these things out willy nilly.
Darren Josey
00:10:27.420 - 00:10:32.780
Well, I, I, I talked to Owen about the budget, and he was like, you got to make it yourself. So I just made it myself.
Colin True
00:10:32.940 - 00:10:36.830
So there's knockoff Rock Fight five timer jackets out there.
Darren Josey
00:10:37.230 - 00:10:46.190
Yeah, you didn't. You didn't trademark that one. So I'm just, I've got, you know, a cheap print house here that they're making them for me.
If anyone else wants them, they can just hit me up on on LinkedIn.
Colin True
00:10:46.190 - 00:11:46.980
All right, well, I wanted to have you on because I've been speculating for years about the role of the outdoor Economy Conference, of which the North Carolina has arguably the largest. One of these events that just happened the week before we recorded this. Outdoor retailer at its peak, always a trade event, right?
The root of it being commerce between brands and dealers. But it would always attract a wide variety of people from across the outdoor spectrum.
There'd be conservation conversations and athletes looking for sponsorships and there'd be investors, which were always the weirdos walking around in like shirts and ties. You're like, we know what you're here to do, sir. And then there are probably all sorts of other people that we didn't even really ever engage with.
But looking at sort of the post peak or world and learning about these outdoor economy conferences, I always wondered if there was like a new model there for the outdoor industry.
So I thought you'd be a really interesting person to speak to this because you've been on the brand and the retail side of these shows and the industry. And then last week you went to the North Carolina Outdoor Economy Conference. So I guess let's start. Why did you choose to attend?
What was it about this event that made you want to see it?
Darren Josey
00:11:47.380 - 00:12:21.710
Well, one thing I want to clarify. This is the National Outdoor Economy Conference. Your state may have its own and they. I'll break a little news here on the RockFi podcast.
They decided to skip next year because they want people to go to their states or their region's outdoor economy Conference. So they're doing a thing that or never would have done back in the day, which is say it's okay to skip a year.
In fact, we want to keep this special and we want you to support your local economy with those dollars and those conversations that are so important. So.
Colin True
00:12:21.710 - 00:12:24.270
So North Carolina no. 26 event.
Darren Josey
00:12:24.670 - 00:14:08.010
Correct. They will just, they'll be back in 2027. They want to keep it special.
And, and there were so much that just kind of tells you and the action that the people behind this show really want. And really it is a conference, it's not a trade show.
There was a small footprint of some brands, but really the purpose of this show is to come together, to learn, to discuss, to really do the thing that we always wish that I always wish I could do at or was like go attend the things. And they had a such a good lineup of speakers. That's why I was there. They invited me there.
I did a presentation around out the outdoor economy were really my if I can remember the name of my own presentation, the name of my presentation was Healthcare and Outdoor Recreation A Hometown Prescription to end the Adventure Gap. I built a 50 state approved presentation of how to do this stuff because there's a lot of, there's a lot of words you can't say right now.
And the reason why this is so important is that the people that are there at this conference are your state's outdoor rec director, the. Your state's outdoor business alliance leaders, your economic development directors.
So those are people that may have some part of outdoor rec or have nothing to do with it and are like, hey, we're looking for any and all ways to boost our economy. And then you've got your state and regional tourism folks. So these are really the outdoor recreation infrastructure people.
They are the most influential people in your state when it comes to doing the type of work that you as a brand or retailer cannot do.
Colin True
00:14:08.010 - 00:14:43.490
Well, it seems kind of, it seems a little complicated, right? I mean, one, because you have, first you have the outdoor rec offices, of which there's 20 across the nation.
Not every state has an outdoor rec office yet. This one, to your point, is like the national conference. So now they're saying you should do your local conference. I think.
Couldn't you make the argument that you should have a national conference? I don't know. We'll get to that in a second. But at the heart of it, who sees and hears about this and says, oh, I'm gonna go to that, right?
Like if, like if, like back in the day when you were working at brands or like, oh, outdoor retailer. I'm gonna go to that because it makes sense for me to go to go to go to. Who says, I want to go to the outdoor economy conference?
Darren Josey
00:14:44.210 - 00:16:27.510
I told you, right? It's the O Rec directors. It's the people who. All right, let me, let me position it better.
I got to see two presentations, One both from governors, one from the governor of North Carolina who was there. Okay? That's how important this is. The governor of North Carolina was there, a Democrat.
And we saw a presentation from Tennessee's governor, a Republican. Both of them had the same message. This is really important. This is how we build our economy for both locals and for tourists.
So you have two people that are politically opposed, yet are saying the same thing. And in fact, Tennessee, that governor, it was the very first executive order was we need to boost our rural economy by using outdoor recreation.
And the reason they did that was that outdoor recreation was the lowest hanging fruit that could do the most good for money and for health. And that's a thing, right?
Tennessee, they did an entire presentation on their Tennessee outdoor partnership they brought together 10 different state departments from Transportation, Health and Human Services, as well as the usual folks, you know, the OREC office and Fish and Wildlife. But like, that is how important this conference is and how important these states are treating it. It doesn't matter.
Left, right, red, blue, all of these states are really investing. And the fact here, here's how I can make it. Maybe stick with, with your audience. This is the missing opportunity.
When I was a marketer for brands, I had to do what any marketer has to do. You have to decide, okay, am I going to sell our existing customer one more thing, like a pair of gravel running shoes or treadmill running shoes?
Right.
Colin True
00:16:27.670 - 00:16:28.390
I have thoughts.
Darren Josey
00:16:28.390 - 00:16:39.430
Or yes, I've heard. Or do you want to steal the competition's customer and say, okay, instead of buying that road shoe, buy our road shoe.
Colin True
00:16:39.669 - 00:16:40.070
Right.
Darren Josey
00:16:40.310 - 00:17:28.030
The people at the Outdoor Economy Conference are the ones who can lay the infrastructure to create new customers. The thing that I tried to do and it could never do like I really wanted to when I worked at a brand that sold gear or apparel, right?
You don't have that Runway, you don't have that budget. You don't have those people.
You want to have the infrastructure to build the programs, to add the trails, to do the thing that we could do to expand the whole industry. Because it's not just about creating the new customer.
It's also about taking a huge subset of the population right now that maybe doesn't have a disability, but will in the future. Some of our older core outdoor enthusiasts.
If we aren't building the accessible trails and the pathways for them to continue recreating, we could lose the core of our industry as well. And so that's how influential these people are.
Colin True
00:17:28.430 - 00:17:51.630
So, and this kind of leads into kind of the, the, the basic premise of my question in the beginning, but, but before I get there, but. So who's in the audience? Like, who, who was there?
Like, I mean, and, and I, and I know you kind of answer that question a little bit, but is it, is it mostly, you know, attendees from different conservation groups? Is it trail builders? Is it just mostly politicians? Is it business owners? Like, who is the kind of.
What's the makeup of the audience who are sitting through these presentations?
Darren Josey
00:17:52.110 - 00:18:36.280
Sure, they did a pretty big poll, just show of hands. And it was a lot of the people who were working for the state outdoor rec offices.
But then you had trails, you know, state, state land management folks.
So I sat with folks from, you know, North Carolina's parks and trails organizations for even the economic Developers from like the person who sits at that for a state level and then different regions like, oh, hey, this was the northwestern North Carolina economic business person. Like their job was to support the areas that really got hit by Helene pretty hard.
And it was amazing how many people from the Southeast where they were like, yeah, it didn't really get as much coverage on the news, but like we got hit really hard too.
Colin True
00:18:36.440 - 00:18:36.920
Yeah.
Darren Josey
00:18:36.920 - 00:19:38.150
And so we saw through a lot of presentations of like when after a major storm hits, 45% of businesses don't reopen. And so it's, it's that economic thing.
So it was anyone from people who are charged of building the workforce development to the economic development to mainstream, maintaining the trails to even transportation folks, like one of the awesome things again, I'll shout out Tennessee, you know, they, they realize that the transportation folks could provide waterway access because all the bridges that go over rivers.
Tennessee has a lot of rivers, could be opportunities for fish and wildlife and other programs to get access onto rivers where there's typically a tough balance between private and public land. You know, TDOT has that access and so they partner together to build that access. And you're like, that's the kind of unlock.
Imagine if your state had, you know, a hundred more put ins for waterways. What would that do for your business? What would that do for retail and guiding and gear?
Colin True
00:19:38.630 - 00:19:59.740
Right. So now you and your. So again you do you wear a lot of different hats with your company? Right. And like, were you there more?
I know you're there to present, but was it more looking at it from the lens of like the projects you're doing in your local community in Massachusetts? Was it more about your efforts to support BIPOC founders?
Like what, what was your sort of lens of like entering into the conference and like what were your expectations heading into it?
Darren Josey
00:19:59.980 - 00:20:06.300
I was there to talk about a thing that is not getting enough coverage right now and not enough attention.
Colin True
00:20:06.860 - 00:20:08.860
We're a little distracted in the world, you know.
Darren Josey
00:20:09.660 - 00:22:34.540
Yeah. Well, here's the crazy thing that I'm going to say.
So I came in because I recognized that and a few other people as well that healthcare is not being integrated into outdoor recreation.
And I sat through one other presentation from an actual medical professional to help frame what are the words you actually use to make that argument to healthcare and health insurers?
Because the number one budget line item you'll see in your state's budget is going to be health and human services, which there were people from those offices there at this conference. That's the Biggest pot of money out there.
And right now, just about everyone's trying to fight sky high healthcare costs and lower health outcomes for Americans. Like, how do we improve that?
And the crazy thing that I'm going to say as someone who attended this conference as well as was invited to present or to be an attendee at the National Governors Association Outdoors Medicine Conference, is that we can make money, save money, improve the health and unite our country with outdoor recreation. That sounds crazy, but I think a lot of people listening to this would be like, yeah, because it makes us healthier. We can make a buck.
We don't destroy the environment when we do it. We can actually lower healthcare costs by getting people outside. And we don't have to build the stadium to do that. Let's just get people outside.
Like, it's a no brainer if you already get it. But we haven't made that actual connection yet.
So I hope to break some news maybe in the next month or two on what I'm working on there because I have some, I've had some meetings with some pretty big healthcare companies. So you'll get the exclusive. That happens.
But I was there to make that connection and to be more prescriptive, if you will, about that on how to do that. But the other reason I was there was economic development representing Founded Outdoors.
I'm someone who has sat at this intersection because of the work I've done with the great Malden Outdoors, trying to build more of that economic development case for the city of Malden, Massachusetts. But also I've been a contractor and Founded Outdoors before and putting on a bunch of their workshops for sales and marketing.
So trying to connect the outdoor rec office, the economic development office, the universities that are building programs to get companies off the ground and outdoor recreation is there to tie all those together and say, hey, I now work for a company that is doing that.
Colin True
00:22:35.490 - 00:23:57.980
You know, it's interesting, number one, to hear something inspirational that is politically tinged in 2025 as we kind of deal with the continued dumpster fire that is mostly politics in 2025.
So to know that, and I think we've even referenced this in some of our more economic conversations here in the rock fight of the outdoors provides the opportunity for unity. This is, you know, the public lands debates. The spot of like, this is the one thing we all sort of seem to agree on. How do we leverage that more?
That was my call, my parting shot earlier in the week to like get louder people. Like, we have weight in this industry, we have money in this industry.
We need to deploy it differently than just, hey, you know, comment on the roadless rule. That's important too. But there's a lot of other things we could be doing.
So to hear some, like, real world examples of this from what you experienced at this event, I guess the thing I go back to, kind of back to my initial premise is a lot of what you're saying sounds just like a much more interesting, broader extension of the industry that we typically talk about either on the show or kind of in like our past and brand conversations. Right? You have.
Yes, there is the day to day of the making and distribution of stuff that is a huge economic driver for the outdoors and the economy or whatever. But all the things you're talking about are, you know, at least related, right?
I mean, there's, there's things that kind of to have a better understanding of the things that you are talking about or that you experience at this event, I feel it can only benefit the sort of the brands and the people who participate in these sports. I mean, is that a crazy statement?
Darren Josey
00:23:58.700 - 00:24:14.360
No, I think we're just throwing crazy statements that we both agree on here.
But the, I, I think the fact that we don't have enough brands in the room, like the fact that, you know, Alison Hill did such an awesome job for LifeStraw, really showing what, what that company does, it was awe inspiring.
Colin True
00:24:14.360 - 00:24:20.680
What they're doing and I had Lifestraw does is incredible. If you, if, you know, if you learn more about LifeStraw, that's amazing.
Darren Josey
00:24:21.480 - 00:24:33.750
They're a company looking to solve, you know, one of the biggest issues we have in the world, which is clean drinking water and providing people who don't have access to it. And they do that by selling a product. And like, that's totally different.
Colin True
00:24:34.070 - 00:24:36.670
You can use your stuff to go backpacking if you want, you know. Yeah.
Darren Josey
00:24:36.670 - 00:24:37.150
If you want.
Colin True
00:24:37.150 - 00:24:37.630
Amazing.
Darren Josey
00:24:37.630 - 00:25:17.570
Yeah, awesome stuff.
But the fact that we don't have more brands in that room, because what is missing right now is the conversation to have between the boots on the ground folks, the policy folks, the tourism folks and the brands, retailers, reps, guides. Like, we all have to come together on one platform and say, here, here's what we can do.
Because the opportunity that is here that I couldn't do, it's the creating new customers thing. Like, everyone in the outdoor industry right now is like, how do we create more customers? Because we're really saturated. We make durable goods.
That's why everyone's trying to get into run. Like, you have to keep buying new running shoes and Shorts and stuff like that.
Colin True
00:25:18.210 - 00:25:25.620
Darren, that's a secret. You don't talk about that out loud. It's like the most disposable thing we all buy every year are running shoes.
Darren Josey
00:25:25.930 - 00:27:24.700
Yep, exactly. But, but our tents, our backpacks. Yeah, like these other products.
And it's really hard, especially with tight budgets right now, for, for outdoor brands to be doing that.
So if we could come together as one group, this is the opportunity I see and the, the lens that I view that through is that today's urban casual outdoor participant is tomorrow's rural economy tourist. When I think about my own journey, okay, I grew up just outside of Boston. I did not grow up doing outdoor rec stuff.
When I started rock climbing because my first job at Vibram, I never heard of the town in Rumney, New Hampshire. I did not know that was a place. But once I started rock climbing, it then became a place.
I was visiting this tiny 1400 person town in two hours north of New Hampshire because I loved rock climbing, climbing.
And so if the outdoor economy folks can be building that pathway, the local programs, the infrastructure needed, how many more pairs of rock climbing shoes could we be selling? How many more casual participants?
Which, you know, Kelly has talked at length from OIA presentations, we've all heard it like, hey, people are going outside less, less frequently, less far away from their homes. We really, it will take the entire state, not just states, but regions.
Like I'm trying to work with New England as a region to say, okay, how do we build programs in the GR to Boston area and then using existing public transit to get to New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont? Because those rural towns could be using those funds from the bigger cities. And so that's what I mean on my own journey, that's what I took there.
But we need the whole industry to be down to have that conversation together. Because states are looking to make money, reduce costs, like show those wins for workforce development and for economic development.
And those are the things that brands really are. They need to. But they can't do all the lifting on their own. It's just not going to work.
Colin True
00:27:24.940 - 00:28:39.400
The whole tying even I don't say social causes, but for lack of a better word, social causes to, you know, economic opportunity is such an important thing. That's when, you know, we talked with Andrea Kelly. You know, make plus equal.
Like she, her whole point is like, hey, you should probably be making plus size stuff anyway. But also you're leaving a lot of money on the table by not doing it right. So it's like, that's an interesting point of view. I guess.
The, the, the thing, if I put myself in like, the why it's not happening, number one, like, you know, it is bifurcated 20 different offices to your point, in North Carolina, taking the year off to have more attention put on the other local offices. Like, who leads here? Like, who's the one who leading this dialogue?
Because you and I both know, like, you know, usually if you're a marketer or you're a product team leader or a sales team leader or whatever it is, your schedule's full, man. Like, you have plenty to do, right? You have plenty of things to go and can do within the kind of the current construct.
And it might sound great to say, look at all this other opportunity. It's good for the world and the country and also you can make money doing it.
But that's still, that's effort and time and everything away from what you're currently focused on. Like, is this, is this an OIA thing?
Is this a, like, you know, is this, someone has to take the place, this the first brand into the pool kind of kind of thing. What do you think? Like, if you were back in your jobs working at brands, how would you engage on this?
Darren Josey
00:28:40.360 - 00:28:46.920
I think I would come with a set of asks and also come with a blank sheet of paper and say, what do you want to ask of me?
Colin True
00:28:47.320 - 00:28:53.480
Like at one of these events? You mean kind of like, hey, I'm. I work for this brand, Ask me questions, right?
Darren Josey
00:28:53.719 - 00:30:16.560
Because I, I see the opportunity because I did get to present to every state's OREC director as part of this. I see this as okay. If this group, if state by state, you can help build the infrastructure to create more customers for me.
I, the brand, am willing to contribute product to remove that barrier to entry for everybody.
Both people who have never recreated and both people who are going, let's say casual today, core tomorrow, I'm going to build that and I'll also provide education.
So I'm going to reduce those barriers so that if your state is going to build more trails, provide programs, I'm going to take away the barriers to getting people outside.
That are the things that I sell because if I get the kids in, if I hook a parent who's looking to just take their kid out, like, with those things, I know I'm going to sell another product later on and I probably have a surplus of inventory of stuff that hasn't sold yet. So we can get both, right? We can be using these ways of, like, I need to create more Customers, I don't have the time to do that.
Can you, the state, do that? And for that I will give product education, those other types of opportunities.
And I think retailers would love to see that, like having people, those hubs built of like, hey, you gotta come into this brick and mortar location to come get that stuff like that. That's a massive opportunity. But we have to come together and say, what are the asks and what do you, what are you going to give to, to get that?
Colin True
00:30:16.800 - 00:30:36.330
I got to think that you mentioned like the retailer. I was thinking like, how, how do, how do the retailers get involved with this?
But I would think this would be something they would naturally want to be involved with because it's supporting their community. Right?
It's more, more customers in your doors, more opportunities to engage with the community and create the adventurers of tomorrow or whatever it was you want to talk about and also get closer to what's actually happening in your backyard.
Darren Josey
00:30:36.570 - 00:32:14.350
We haven't really formalized that path to go from beginner to intermediate to expert to former expert, trying to relearn.
I just had a conversation with a buddy of mine who's the head of marketing for rock spot climbing gyms and he's got a three year old and he and I were talking about, you know, do we need to get a single pitch instructor's license so that we can take our kids out more safely?
Cause like, I'm getting ready to be putting my oldest daughter into rock climbing summer camp next year, but I also want to be able to take her and other friends and I want to do that safely. Where's the class for me to do that? I'm a parent, I got time, I have the gear.
But I need that new certification, that new level of training because I'm going to take out way more kids and I don't need to be paid to do that. That's going to cost nothing. So. And then I think other parents are just looking for that opportunity. Like, can I just put my kid into this?
Like, hey, it looks fun. Like, what about me? How do, how do I.
Where's my couch to 5K version of couch to, you know, hanging 10 couch to, you know, setting up a top rope anchor or just being able to climb with my kid or being a really good ballet partner for my kid as they get into this thing. So just more of that effort can be there as all levels of programs, but brands can do that on their own.
And if we don't have people asking for that at a state level or really well Organized as an industry. Here's what we need. Because if our company fails, that means your local retailers don't have stuff to sell. That means your local out.
You know, your local guide doesn't have the backing of a sponsorship or also the gear to sell or the gear to put on clients. So it's all connected. And we're not talking.
Colin True
00:32:15.230 - 00:32:29.050
See, I know you're a zennial. I know you're a 1984 kid. And this is where the more millennial side of you comes out.
Because if you were more on the Gen X side, you'd be like, I don't need a fucking certification. I'm sticking my kid rock climbing. Send your kids with me. I'll take them up the rock. Don't worry about it. It'll be fine.
Darren Josey
00:32:31.290 - 00:32:37.770
I'm just in, like, someone else that's gonna take a picture. Like, I didn't just like, look at this. Dude didn't do a.
Colin True
00:32:37.770 - 00:32:39.770
Why do you think you're qualified to do that, sir?
Darren Josey
00:32:40.090 - 00:32:57.370
I know it's like, oh my God, come on.
But I, I just, I, I just see so much of this, this missed opportunity and, and I think that that top to top thing, or I'm gonna use an old quote from someone that we both know. How do we make a. Make capitalism work for our causes?
Colin True
00:32:57.610 - 00:33:04.570
Okay, so as we sit here today, we have still 20, sorry, 30 states that do not have an office of outdoor rec.
Darren Josey
00:33:04.730 - 00:33:06.330
I think there's 21, I believe.
Colin True
00:33:06.410 - 00:33:07.850
Is it dodging up to 21 now?
Darren Josey
00:33:07.850 - 00:33:08.130
Yeah.
Colin True
00:33:08.130 - 00:33:08.410
Okay.
Darren Josey
00:33:08.410 - 00:33:08.810
Yeah.
Colin True
00:33:08.810 - 00:33:33.430
Still, we're not even halfway yet though, right? So. So it's still kind of early days for this, honestly.
But even if you're, if you're working at a brand, like if you were you working at an office and you're listening to this podcast, what would you want? What could you do now?
Would it be so, like, hey, just start to dabble in some of these economy conferences, Find the te to travel to one, see it, learn about it, maybe pick a market. If it's one's happening in a certain state, go to that one. What would you do with this information?
Darren Josey
00:33:34.150 - 00:34:45.650
If you're a state that doesn't have an OREC office, start reaching out to your political connections to do one.
That's the first thing, because a lot of these offices have started through an executive order, which is pretty, I can't say easy when it comes to government, but it's not as hard as getting it passed by law. So it's possible a lot of states have started that. And Massachusetts being one of those them. So you can do that.
Two, if you already have an OREC director, you should be meeting with this person because you can be supporting the grants that they're putting together, talking to them about the needs that you have as an employer in the state or as someone who is looking at like, hey, I'm looking at this industry data. I know you're looking at this industry data too.
We're not getting the core customer and what that means to me and the products and services that I sell. If we have less core customers, I can't sell these next tiers of my product. That means people aren't coming back and reordering.
These are the pressures that I'm getting from my side of the business. And I want you to be successful in your OREC office. Here's that. Give and take.
I can contribute X if you can help me with Y, because the goals are gonna be really well aligned. And then it would be attending your state's outdoor economy conference. If there is one in your state.
Colin True
00:34:45.650 - 00:34:46.250
There is one.
Darren Josey
00:34:46.250 - 00:34:47.690
Yeah, you should be there.
Colin True
00:34:48.090 - 00:34:51.750
But if you're not. So if you're like, I'm in California. California doesn't have an O rec office yet.
Darren Josey
00:34:51.899 - 00:34:52.139
Yet.
Colin True
00:34:52.139 - 00:34:57.659
Does it? More go see someone else's. Like, what, you know, what would you. What would you recommend there?
Darren Josey
00:34:58.139 - 00:35:17.939
I think you could see. I would then go to, like, where your most customers are. Right. If you're.
If you're based in California, but you got a ton of customers in Colorado, go to the Colorado one. Right, right. Go. Go have that conversation. Because people are going to know who you are. It's gonna be a big deal. You're there. Yeah.
Because a lot of states are also. And I saw a whole presentation from Arkansas.
Colin True
00:35:18.410 - 00:35:20.410
Like, they are Arkansas straight killing it.
Darren Josey
00:35:20.490 - 00:35:47.010
They are.
And hey, as someone who is a quote unquote, liberal elite, man, we are getting trounced by these red states when it comes to treating outdoor rec as an economic driver as a reason to move to the state. Like, the Waltons ain't messing around, man. They're using it to. To get people to move to that state to build a workforce.
Because, like, hey, it's great to live here. Look at all the awesome things that we're doing. Kids riding mountain bikes on trails to school. Beat that.
Colin True
00:35:47.410 - 00:36:18.610
Right? I guess. Last thing.
So, like, I know the confluence of states, which represents all the states that have OREC offices, they showed up at the Outdoor Media Summit last year. When you look at sort of the, you know, the industry events that still Occur like, you know, you and I were both at Switchback this past June.
Are there opportunities for partnership there?
Would you be encouraging those events to kind of reach out and have more of a presence from the economy, from the Orex and from these economic conferences to show up at these more. I don't know. I want to call them mainstream events, but sort of more entrenched, sort of known industry events.
Darren Josey
00:36:19.090 - 00:37:34.630
Yeah, I would. Not only that, I wouldn't just say show up.
I would say we need to have, like, a Mafia five family sit down nice, straight up, like, organized by the Outdoor Economy Conference organized by Switchback. Like, hey, here are the issues that we are all facing. We all agree. I started my presentation with, like, do we agree with xyz, Right?
And everyone's like, yes, we agree. So we have a shared set of agreements. How can we work towards this goal? Because we have some things that we cannot do on our own.
And that's the thing that I have a whole thing that I told the Switchback folks about. There was no opportunity where we had brand, retailer, rep, all sitting together saying, how do we work together?
Because right now there's one person's pulling and another person's pulling back, and someone else is stuck in the middle. What are we doing here? Pick your issue.
But we have to have some set of agreements, and then we all can work together on how to get it done, because we're not talking right now. And so that would be the thing I want. Straight up, five families. I want to sit down. Give me the O rec people. Give me the tourism folks.
Give me the economic development folks. Yeah, give me the. Give me the trade. But, like, we need a couple brand. We need people who are like, hey, man, I need to grab my customers.
Like, my budget's going down. I'm seeing sales going down. I got too much inventory.
Colin True
00:37:34.710 - 00:37:35.040
Right.
Darren Josey
00:37:36.230 - 00:37:53.430
How can I move this stuff? Because this stuff is fun. This stuff provides the way to get outside to be healthy.
And when I sell one tent, that means someone's buying a pass in your state park. That's what that means. So those things are connected.
Colin True
00:37:54.150 - 00:39:06.490
And if anybody's kind of listening to this and maybe struggling to kind of keep up.
I guess when Darren came on before, we were talking a lot about the role of DEI and expanding the opportunities for historically marginalized communities in the outdoors. And I think one of the things I remember you talking about was that there's a lot of things that say, easy, but do hard when it comes to brands.
It's like, oh, I put up the black square on the day when I'm supposed to do that. And, oh, I did the. Look at us. There's pressure to have a DEI component to our thing.
Well, we have that now, but then it's just also really hard to know exactly how to do that, what to do with that, make sure. How do you make it effective, those kinds of things. And this is kind of a path to that in a lot of ways. Right.
This is saying here are actionable things that are going to be good for your bottom line if you're a retailer or if you're a brand or whatever it is. That's also going to lead to way more people participating than ever have before.
And by the way, this is all happening at a time when the casual participation. Participation numbers continue to rise all the time. More people are going outside than before.
So this is a way to start to actually capitalize on that while still doing a good thing as well.
Darren Josey
00:39:06.490 - 00:39:13.770
Yep. And. And we can just mute the. The good thing part. We can just say the good thing is improving health and improving the economy.
Colin True
00:39:14.090 - 00:39:14.450
Yeah.
Darren Josey
00:39:14.450 - 00:39:25.850
And if you're from a state, they can talk about it like, the state of Massachusetts. This is an environmental justice issue. Like, great, we can say that there. But 50 state, we can agree. Improve people's health.
Colin True
00:39:25.850 - 00:39:26.170
Right.
Darren Josey
00:39:26.170 - 00:40:09.630
And improve the local economy. And I would say we can take someone who bought a day pack today. How do we get them to buy a backpacking pack?
How do we get them to go do the AT as like, the pinnacle thing that they're gonna do? How do we get them in my own journey?
Like, I started in the greater Boston area climbing, then I went to New Hampshire, then I went to Utah, then I went to California. Like, I was buying flights to go do the thing.
Like, my vacation changed from a thing of like, I want to sit on the beach and have a drink to I want to get after it, I want to climb. But that's right. If I had more people with me to go, because that's not everyone. I'm.
I'm very privileged in that my parents gave me the courage that even if I didn't see people like me, I would. I could go into spaces and go take up space. That's not everybody.
Colin True
00:40:09.630 - 00:40:09.990
No.
Darren Josey
00:40:09.990 - 00:40:25.270
And states can then support the ethnic affinity groups, the travel groups, and say, hey, do you want to go with 12 other BIPOC folks to Utah? Like, well, the Utah part's a little scary, but if I go with 12 other people that look like me, I'll.
Colin True
00:40:25.270 - 00:40:29.890
Go lead with climbing instead of Utah. Hey, do you want to go climbing with a bunch of other people that look like you?
Chris DeMakes
00:40:29.890 - 00:40:30.410
Yeah.
Colin True
00:40:30.810 - 00:40:33.370
Where? Don't worry about where. Just don't worry about it.
Darren Josey
00:40:34.170 - 00:41:09.030
But that, but that's the example of like, that's where the state can.
That's where the tourism group can come in and put some dollars into someone like Camp Yoshi, that's a bipoc owned amazing travel company that you could be doing that with. And then it's like, there's no. What we talking about here. I'll, I'll go with a bunch of other brown folks anywhere.
Like you're telling me it's going to be a good time and something that I love and it's going to take me to the next level. I was a beginner, now I get to intermediate. I'm in. I think we can have it all with outdoor recreation.
We can make money, save money, improve people's health, unite our country. Just the small stuff, little things.
Colin True
00:41:09.910 - 00:41:11.670
Love it. All right, buddy, good to see you as always.
Darren Josey
00:41:12.070 - 00:41:15.750
Good to see you. Keep on doing the good work that you folks are doing over there at the rock fight.
Colin True
00:41:16.550 - 00:41:36.650
All right, that's the show for today, thanks to my guest Darren Joosse. You can find more about Darren in the link in the show notes. The rock fight. It's a production of rock fight. L A llc. I'm Colin True.
Thank you for listening. And here he is to take us out, guys. It's Krista makes the voice of the rock fight with the rock fight fight song.
We'll see you next time, Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:41:36.650 - 00:42:37.710
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth Play sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head this is where we speak our truth this is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock flight. Rock flight. Rock flight welcome to the rock flight Rock flight. Rock flight. Rock flight.
Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.