Without Joy, What's The Purpose?
- colin7931
- Jun 24
- 33 min read
Today Doug opens the container with Teresa Baker.
Doug begins the show by weighing in on the timely and urgent need to protect our public lands, which are currently facing a historical and unprecedented threat. He talks about the implications of a legislative push that could result in the sale of millions of acres of these cherished spaces, highlighting a provision introduced by Senator Mike Lee that jeopardizes the beautiful and wild places that belongs to all Americans.
Doug is then joined by Teresa Baker, a passionate advocate for inclusivity within the outdoor community who reinforces the notion that these spaces should be accessible to everyone.
Throughout their discussion, Teresa and Doug emphasize the value of these lands and engage in a conversation about the intersection of joy, resistance, and the responsibility to safeguard these environments that define who we are.
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Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:00.240 - 00:08:56.850
Hey everyone.
Before we get started today, I want to thank you for listening to Open Container and ask that you please subscribe to the show by clicking Follow on the podcast app you're using right now. Following the podcast is the best way to ensure that we will continue to crack open the container every single week.
Thank you and let's start the show. Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. I'm a journalist, writer, writer and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I still stop to clear deadfall off trails when I am hiking.
On this podcast, we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community.
Let's get some at one point, my producer Colin asked if we should turn this into a public lands podcast because it seems like we're always talking about the fate of our lands here on Open Container. I told him I didn't want to do that.
I want Open Container to be a big vessel, one that holds all the ways we engage with the outdoors, whether that's as an explorer, a business owner, a musician, an artist, a thinker or an advocate. Public lands are certainly at the top of everyone's mind right now. That's because public lands are under attack like never before in this country.
Not since the excess of the Gilded Age and robber barons.
Most of you probably know that as we record this, there is a very real chance we could lose 3.3 million acres of public land within the next month, and possibly far more. Up to 250 million acres could be sold off.
If you want to learn more about the details of this great public land sell off, I suggest you follow the outstanding work that Travis Hall, a journalist and hunter who lives in Montana, has been doing reporting on the issue at Field and Stream magazine.
This is all due to a provision that Utah Senator Mike Lee quietly sneaked into the Trump administration so called Big Beautiful Bill, which is currently in the Senate. Mike Lee has been trying to get rid of public lands for a long time. I've read his thoughts on the matter. I've heard him speak.
He believes federal control of public lands is a sin and a disservice to the people who live nearby. He calls it a form of serfdom. But here's the problem. Senator Lee's solution isn't to better manage these lands or give more local control.
His plan is to sell them off completely and make them private. The bill actually mandates the sale of certain public lands, some in as little as 30 days.
And while Senator Lee claims these would be lands no one cares about, this is where it gets shady. The truth is, much of the land slated for sale includes some of the most treasured and ecologically valuable places in the United States.
Montana Senator Steve Daines is also a sponsor of the bill, but conveniently, he removed Montana from the list of states affected. That tells you everything you need to know. The idea of selling off our public lands is horrific.
It's rooted in an outdated belief that the American west is a bounty to be fenced, bought, and controlled by a privileged few. But that's not how people interact with these lands today. Get on any trail and you'll see more people than ever.
Campsites require reservations made months in advance. Everything is more crowded than ever, and spaces that were once silent have now been found.
Our public lands are a shared and popular resource, beloved, used, and in desperate need of protection. As our population grows, pressure on wild places increases. In Utah alone, national parks are overwhelmed. Zion saw 5 million visitors last year.
If you've been to a trailhead or campground recently, you know public lands are more popular than ever. People love being outside. And more people will be outside.
Looking at how many Americans are flocking to public lands, it would be easy to make the argument we need more of them. At the very least, we need more funding to manage and protect them. And even if we stop this land sale, the war on public lands won't be over.
These lands are being defunded and mismanaged. I don't understand the logic. Maybe the idea is, if we break the system badly enough, those who want to privatize it can say, see?
The government can't manage it and use that as justification to sell it off. It's cynical and it's dangerous. This isn't a partisan issue.
In fact, public lands are one of the few things people on both sides of the aisle actually agree upon. We all love being outside. Sure, we may differ on how public land should be used. Some people want to extract as much value from them as possible.
Where others believe in preservation, I fall into the preservation camp. But no matter what, we need to talk about this. Our society is overwhelming. We scroll through our phones.
We pay student loans, medical bills, subscriptions, car insurance. We work jobs to pay for all these things. Even when our quality of life is technically good, we're stuck in a rat race.
It's hard to escape the confines of modern life. But we can all escape to public lands, to the mountains, the deserts, the oceans, the lakes.
Out here, all that matters is our relationship with the land. It doesn't even matter how we engage with it.
But often the way we do engage is a passion that defines us, that makes us feel a deeper version of ourselves than we are stuck in that circle of working and paying and subscribing.
When we ski, when we hike, when we hunt, when we catch a wild trout, when we trad climb, when we ride ATVs, when we overland, when we camp, when we walk the dogs, when we take our children to discover what the world is out there outside of schools and ideologies of any kind, we are truly free. This is it.
This is the great freedom of the American experience, the ability to be whoever we want to be, to connect with the land, to be simply ourselves. On public lands, there are no political boundaries, no divisions by race, gender, or class, just people meeting the natural world as they are.
That's not to say politics, race and gender don't matter. Of course they do. They inform our experience of the outdoors. But on public land, we get the rare chance to just be, to find ourselves.
Take that away, and you take away our root freedom as Americans. We also must never forget that this land was never truly ours. Indigenous people lived here far longer than those of us descended from settlers.
That history should shape how we think about land, especially land not owned by individuals. I believe we can move forward positively. I've never seen the outdoor community more united.
I hope this moment leads to deeper conversations, not just about how we use public land, but about whose land it is and whose land it should remain. My guest today is not just an advocate for public lands, but a person who is speaking up for inclusivity in the outdoors in general.
She is here to remind us that the freedom we feel when we are out there should be experienced by everyone. Teresa Baker is determined to make a difference in the work of diversity and inclusion in outdoor spaces.
She is committed to creating outdoor experiences that speak to culture, environmental responsibility and inclusion while bridging the gap between business and community.
She has created such projects as the Buffalo Soldiers Trail, the Women's Outdoor Summit for Empowerment, the Women's Over 50 Outside Campaign, and the Outdoor CEO Diversity Pledge, whose signatories include 180 brands and nonprofits. Now let's open the container with Teresa Baker. Okay. Well, I am excited to have a longtime friend and collaborator here in Teresa Baker.
Good to see you.
Teresa Baker
00:08:57.410 - 00:08:58.370
Good to see you.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:08:59.330 - 00:09:19.210
And Teresa and I were talking about what we were going to discuss on this podcast, and the big thing that came up was a great thing to talk about. Right now, which is joy, the idea of joy.
And, Teresa, I guess we'll start by me asking you, what is joy for you, and what do you mean when you say that word?
Teresa Baker
00:09:20.570 - 00:10:08.140
Yeah, I think in this moment, as a country, there's so much stuff that ugly, and I think we need to bring joy back. We need to remember our joy, because once that's gone, what's the purpose?
So for me, joy is being able to get outside, walking a trail, hanging out under the redwoods, and just simply listening to nature. You know, that's joy for me.
And my hope is that we can get the outdoor industry back to remembering what that feels like, because it can be an escape for a lot of us during these ugly times. So for me, that's what it is.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:10:09.020 - 00:10:22.380
I love that, and I know it's important.
I keep trying to remind myself, my wife, friends, and I keep trying to remind friends how important it is, you know, when you feel overwhelmed by the world just to get outside even a little bit.
Teresa Baker
00:10:23.310 - 00:10:24.910
Absolutely, absolutely.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:10:26.350 - 00:10:33.230
Do you think that joy can be a means of resistance, of passive or even active resistance?
Teresa Baker
00:10:34.670 - 00:11:38.840
I think it's absolutely active.
I think there's so much thrown at us in our personal lives and in our work lives, in our political lives that seeks to just snatch that away from us at times. But if we give into it, then it's a direction that we will continue to take, moving away.
But if we are intentional and saying, even though A, B, C and D is happening, I. I am going to remember my joy and I am going to get outside and embrace everything that it offers. So I absolutely think that it's not.
I don't think it's passive. I think it's active. You have to participate in order to feel what that joy can do to you as an individual.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:40.610 - 00:11:57.250
And I guess it is such a. It's such a powerful weapon. Right. Against people who want to control you and people who take. People who take delight in making you feel upset.
I mean, bullies in general. Right? Anyone who makes you feel.
Teresa Baker
00:11:57.250 - 00:12:22.339
Yeah, yeah. It's just. It can be ugly at times.
But I'm intentional and not allowing my joy to escape me because that's when the troublemaker in me takes over, because I'm going to find a way to push back. So as long as I have joy, the world is okay. The world is safe.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:24.580 - 00:12:27.860
And what about when that troublemaker comes out? Then what are we going to see?
Teresa Baker
00:12:28.260 - 00:13:11.400
You know, I still, you know, I think it's good trouble. I remember John Lewis and what he spoke about good Trouble. And sometimes it's intense.
But I think we need good trouble, especially right now, so that we can push back against some of this negativity and just to remind people that joy is still there and that we have the ability to make change. We just have to act. We can't constantly talk about the changes we want to see without putting any action behind it.
So that's my focus, is whatever I put out there, action will follow.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:12.440 - 00:13:54.770
I like that. Thinking about John Lewis and civil Rights moment, I think of that as so integral to who I am, who this country is.
Right from when I grew up, when I started, was born in the midst of that. And then I felt like we had so much movement towards a better country, a better world. Right down to Sesame Street. Right.
Sesame street started the year I was born. Right. But I think it's all interconnected. It felt like there was this great movement when we were children, people our age. Right, right. And.
And do you think we've. Do you think we've lost, that we can tie back into that? Why are we, why are we so far backward now, do you think?
Teresa Baker
00:13:56.530 - 00:16:07.770
I think we get what we settle for, what we accept we get. I think there needs to be more pushback in these political times.
I look at what took place last weekend and I was like, damn, this is amazing to see this type of pushback, to see this message that we're sending as a country. And it may be hard for some people to participate in something like that, but. But it's absolutely needed in this moment.
We can't just sit back and accept what's being thrown at us. And I think people spoke loud and clear last weekend that they're not going to just sit back. So we need to be proactive in our approach in this.
We need to be open minded. Not everything is going to go the way we want it to, but too many pieces are going in the opposite direction.
And I think businesses, especially the outdoor industry, we need to speak louder. We need to make sure the message is out there that we're not for having our public lands attacked. We're not for having DEI measures pushed back.
We have to continue to move forward in this work to.
Despite what they throw at us because, you know, midterms are coming up and I don't want to get too political, but we have the means to change some things. So let's remember our joy and show humanity and compassion as we move forward in this moment.
And I've told people that I'm actually excited for this moment because in this Moment. Folks that claim to have been allies in this work will do one of two things. They will show up or they will coward.
And I am waiting to see who shows up so that when we move beyond this moment, I'll know who to gather with.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:16:08.010 - 00:16:51.710
You know, I heard someone or I saw someone online say that. Basically, we were telling, hey, liberal white people. Now, now you know what it feels like to be a black person right now.
You know, what we've had to deal with for years and years that you feel the press, you know, this is where you're at.
But I think, you know, whatever you want to think of that, I think that to build on it, you know, I think especially the idea of joy is something that's central to the black community and, you know, a long history of civil rights movement, of peaceful and intentional and constant resistance is something that the whole country can learn from right now. Right?
Teresa Baker
00:16:52.350 - 00:18:01.620
Yeah. I think history has given us the blueprint, period. A good blueprint and a bad blueprint. So we need to take pieces from both and move forward.
The joy that the black community experiences as a people, it's engraved in our DNA. We will find joy in turmoil, and that is just how it's been for us as a people.
I don't know if people can relate to black people in their joy if they're not black. I don't know that I think people can relate to joy, period. Because joy isn't something that's assigned to one group of people.
Joy is something that's inside of all of us, and we have to remember that as we move forward. But we have to move forward with compassion. Otherwise, we're just as ugly as the other side.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:18:03.140 - 00:18:38.650
I like that. I don't know if you know at all the Langston Hughes poem the Negro Speaks of Rivers, but. But it's always one that, to me, is really powerful.
One that connects.
I think it connects the black community, but it connects everyone to this basic idea of the river, the soil, the earth in a way that we can all learn from. And I think that is the kind of leadership we need right now, is an understanding of looking at the planet, the outdoors, and society in a new way.
Right?
Teresa Baker
00:18:39.700 - 00:20:10.060
Yeah. I think we're all capable of leading. Every individual is capable of leading in their own individual way, good and bad. We have to.
For me, I look to history in that those who came before me laid a foundation for me to follow. They've made it easier for. For me. The fact that they were means that I can be here on this podcast today.
So I always tell people that I look to my legacy for guidance. They will show me the path as they always have. And I live in obligation to those who came before me and an obligation to those who will come after.
So I'm following a path that I don't have an option, you know, I can't throw my hands up and say, this is too hard. I can't. Because what they endured was way more than I could even come close to assigning myself to.
So understanding where and who I come from guides me and lets me know that I'm on the right path.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:10.380 - 00:20:27.210
Getting back to the idea of joy, maybe.
When and where have you been recently when you've been able to tap out, to experience real joy outside of all these other crappy things we have to deal with?
Teresa Baker
00:20:27.690 - 00:21:32.500
Yeah. I'll tell you, there are two places, three places, really, that I get excited for.
That's the Big Sur coast and the redwoods near Humboldt Avenue of the Giants. That place is, like, amazing. I can just sit there in the forest and I don't need to have anyone around me. It just. It embraces you.
I call it my cathedral because these trees are so huge and there's so much history there and I'm learning so much about the area. But that is my joy. Being in places like Big Sur, the Redwoods, and of course, Point Reyes.
It's just amazing, you know how I feel so much pressure being released when I'm in those spaces. I know I have to get back to the real world, but in that moment, I'm there. That's my joy.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:21:33.380 - 00:21:46.420
Well, what is the real world? Right. Doesn't it feel like that is. You know, I mean, it's almost like when we get in those places, as you said, it's like a cathedral.
We do have this sense of such a deeper sense of who we are and what we're connected to.
Teresa Baker
00:21:48.340 - 00:22:33.730
It is. It is, of course, part of the real world, but. But it feels like an escape to me. For me, it feels like I don't have to have a conversation.
I can walk for hours with just me and my camera, and I don't have to be in conversation with anyone. I can go down a trail that I've been down 50 times before and still see something new and still feel something new.
It's an attachment for me that, like I said, in a way, it feels like an escape. I don't have to be concerned or overly concerned with the things that will be once I return.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:22:34.370 - 00:23:02.340
Yeah. And, I mean, that seems. I think that's kind of the importance, why public lands are so important to us, right?
Because everything else we have to pay for or we have to be part of some kind of hierarchy or to listen to someone or do something, right?
But we can go on public lands no matter who you are, no matter your partner, politics, your race, your gender, you know, your whatever, you know, and you get out there and you're simply yourself, right? And don't have to pay for it. You don't have to be a part of anything.
Teresa Baker
00:23:03.300 - 00:24:18.310
Yeah, it is. And I.
When I tell people that this is yours, you know, I sort of have to go into an explanation behind what I mean, but I want people to know that our tax dollars pay for these places like our national park. And it's something that's. It's a currency that we are entitled to.
As Ranger Shelton Johnson always says at Yosemite, this is a currency that we're given and we have the right to be in these spaces. And that's what we have to fight for.
We have to continue to make sure these places are public, that are open to any and all of us, and that people aren't disrupting that peace by building on these lands and taking from these lands. We have to remember the indigenous people who occupied these spaces long before we were there.
So these public lands belong to us, and we have to continue to stand up for them and make sure that they are secured for future generations.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:24:19.340 - 00:24:36.380
And you're. I think people know you as an activist, an advocate, but I think you're also.
I think you'd like to think of yourself as a photographer primarily, right? You get out and take photos, and especially of wildlife, right? That's your real passion, isn't it?
Teresa Baker
00:24:37.100 - 00:25:42.100
Yeah. I think no matter how many photos I take, I can never capture the real beauty that's in front of that lens.
And that's how amazingly stunning our public lands are. It's just me and my camera. I can literally be outside hiking for five hours, and I will have only gone two miles.
And it's because I'm not trying to take on the distance. I'm trying to take on the beauty that surrounds me, the serenity that surrounds me, the peace that's in these places.
And I try and capture that with my camera, but nature outdoes me every time. So my hope is that that's what people do.
They get out and take as many photos as they can to remember the moment so that you can look back on those photos and remember the feelings you had when you were there.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:25:43.300 - 00:25:54.530
So do you feel that the outdoors can heal us as well, both personally, societally, generationally. Do you feel healing when you're out there as well, communing with trees and wildlife?
Teresa Baker
00:25:55.170 - 00:27:54.510
Yeah, I think there is a healing that takes place. But I don't know if people realize it's a healing that's taking place, because in that moment, for me anyway, everything else goes away.
And sometimes it's hard for me to explain that to a person who hasn't experienced the Big Sur coast or the redwoods. It's hard for me to get them to understand the connection that I feel to these places. It's genuine, it's sincere, It's a mode of relaxation for me.
But I think healing is there because when you look at the ugly history behind, especially my ancestors in these wooded areas, it hasn't been positive.
And for me to get back out there, in spite of what some of my ancestors endured, it's in honor of them, those who came before me, so that I can say, those that did the ugly deeds to you, they didn't conquer the outdoors, because I'm still here. And for me, that's the connection that I'm hoping to make. And I know it's not just African Americans who have experienced ugliness in wild spaces.
I think about the indigenous communities all around. I just want to be a reminder that there's good there. And in spite of the past, we can still look to nature as a healing piece of our being.
So it's healing in that aspect.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:27:54.510 - 00:28:45.440
I think I found. I was looking at the work of the poet Camille Dungy, who's up here in Fort Collins, and.
And I found this quote from her I wanted to bring up in her interview.
And she says in a memoir about her ancestry and the soil, she says, part of my drive to think so deeply about the greater than human world in direct relationship with my personal and cultural history, comes from a desire to construct meaning from and a connection with what is beyond me and also what binds me to the rest of the world. It's a spiritual question and a practical one. And that seems to be right on kind of with what you were saying about being outdoors. Right.
Feeling both those. Both the practicality of it and the deeper spiritual part of it.
Teresa Baker
00:28:46.160 - 00:29:43.920
Yeah, it's absolutely spiritual. I am not a religious person. I believe in God. I believe in spirituality, and I think that's a part of nature. Nature accepts you as you are.
Nature doesn't ask you to be a certain way. It accepts you as a whole. And what we give back is the protection of those spaces because nature gives us so much up front. It just welcomes us.
There isn't a sign that says only if you are 1, 2, 3. Only if you follow under those categories are you welcome. Nature doesn't do that. I wish that's how it could be in what I'm calling the real world.
But at least we have that in a nature form.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:29:44.560 - 00:29:50.800
I love that. I love that what we can give back is to protect this place that gives so much to us. That's beautiful.
Teresa Baker
00:29:51.200 - 00:29:51.600
Right?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:29:52.720 - 00:30:19.480
Okay, well, moving on to the not as fun stuff right now. Maybe the more fun, maybe the more important. Your work is very deeply rooted in diversity, equity and inclusion.
And right now there is a kind of stunning, to me war on that concept and that idea. And why do you think, why are people so afraid of something that should be so welcoming to everyone?
Teresa Baker
00:30:21.720 - 00:32:21.100
It's because they are afraid. It's because they're like, once we're on equal ground, it's over.
When you look at the racial demographic shift that's taking place in this country, people have to understand that no matter what you do, you're not going to stop the racial demographic shift. You're not going to stop it. So let's politically go in there and say, let's try and erase all their history.
Let's try to remove everything that we put in place to make sure that people are treated equally and have equal access across the board. This is a moment where this country is being tested. You know, where are your values?
If you don't believe in diversity, what you're saying is that one group of people should have more rights than others. That is exactly what you're saying. So if you're white and male, you're in.
If you're anything other than that, then we're going to try and pause all the work that you've done. But like I said, this is a moment for allies to rise up.
Allies to rise up and stand by what they said they would do, and especially in the outdoor industry after, you know, 2020 when Mr. George Floyd was murdered. So we're the allies, and I think we saw some of them last year with all the, you know, marching that was going on.
So it's out of fear that they're doing it, but they're not going to stop us. There's too many pieces that people don't realize that are happening, that are happening. So it's fear that they're pushing back.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:21.900 - 00:33:12.870
Yeah. And it doesn't. And I mean, you don't need to be afraid Right.
I'm a older white male, and I am more than willing to see everyone come aboard the train, the trip, the party, wherever, you know, so it doesn't have to be that way. It really doesn't. And I think you have done such great work. I mean, starting in 2018, right. You started the CEO diversity pledge.
You brought that into the industry, and I think, you know, you were able to come to Outdoor Retailer and where you had a great platform to be able to see companies face to face and get them to level up and join the pledge and do that. Now, seven years later, how do you see your work there coming to fruition? You know, how is that blossomed after planting those seeds seven years ago?
Teresa Baker
00:33:13.670 - 00:34:41.339
Yeah.
Chris Perkins and I, you know, started the Outdoor CEO Diversity Pledge, and it was intentional for me that after five years, I wouldn't put much effort into it. I wanted these companies to take a hold of it, own it. I wanted them to drive the work behind it.
And we have over 180 brands that are still part of the pledge, and I'm still in touch with many of them. And they, to this day, reach out and ask advice on what to do, or before they make a step, they'll reach out and say, what do you think of this?
So the fact that they're even thinking about it says that what Chris and I created was a positive thing for the outdoor industry. And I recognize that this work is not easy. I recognize that this work is difficult.
But what I want to do as a human being is give people the opportunity to try, fail, and try again without having everyone blast them if they make a misstep. That was the purpose for the pledge. It still is. And I'm happy to see that so many brands are still committed to that work.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:34:42.299 - 00:34:57.019
That's great to see.
And, I mean, do you feel that most brands approached it because they really wanted to do the work, because they were scared if they weren't going to do the work, or were some of them just being performative and how can you shake those differences out?
Teresa Baker
00:34:57.019 - 00:35:01.259
Right. So you just really want to bring the troublemaker out in the end.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:35:01.659 - 00:35:03.669
I like that. Yeah. I cause trouble. Yeah.
Teresa Baker
00:35:04.140 - 00:36:05.650
You know, when Mr. George Floyd was murdered, there were Chris and I actually had to shut the pledge down.
There were so many people reaching out, wanting to sign on to the pledge. We had well over 200 brands at that point, and we shut it down. And I was watching.
I was watching what these brands would do, because what I didn't want to happen was have someone point to the pledge and say, see? We care. And when we saw that, when I saw that happening, they were removed instantly.
During that time, there were reports that were due if they didn't turn in a report on what they were doing once a year. That's all we asked. Give us a report. They were removed if they didn't submit a report. So we tried our best to monitor what was happening with that.
But, yeah, of course, there were people who signed on just because they felt it was the thing to do in the moment.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:36:06.050 - 00:36:23.170
Now the pledge has evolved a bit, and now it's In Solidarity is the organization it's kind of evolved into. And how has that kind of evolved? And how has your work expanded under In Solidarity from the CEO pledge?
Teresa Baker
00:36:23.890 - 00:37:53.340
Yeah, the In Solidarity Project is where the pledge is housed. We have a film project would say the Redwoods League. It's housed there. We had a job board. I recently removed it. It was housed there.
So everything was housed under the In Solidarity Project. And it's amazing. You know, we. We had a film opportunity that was awesome to see happen. It was a grove of redwood trees in California that.
I don't know how this happened, but no one knew about it. And some of the biggest redwood trees were there. And Save the Redwoods League purchased the land from a private owner.
And I reached out to them and I said, hey, give me this grove of redwoods.
And let us tell a story about the importance of making sure folks from underrepresented communities are a part of these grand openings and these takeovers and whatnot.
So that film project was done there at Richardson Grove, and that was the whole purpose for moving the pledge under In Solidarity projects so that we could do various projects and still have it land on one platform.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:37:54.060 - 00:38:05.360
And now you're also involved with the Outdoor Diversity alliance, and that is also kind of evolving and changing too. So could you tell us a bit about what that is and how that works?
Teresa Baker
00:38:05.600 - 00:39:26.150
Yeah, yeah. I'm constantly coming up with stuff. I'm like, I might get this entire outdoor industry involved in some capacity.
But about three years ago, I guess, I did a gathering at Patagonia's headquarters with some of the CEOs who had signed the CEO pledge. And we. We met at Patagonia and we talked about how we can move these efforts forward around making sure the outdoor industry was more diverse.
And a guy that I think you all know, guy named Ian, I think you guys know him. I said, ian and I were sitting next to one another because we went to this turtle conservation in the area.
And I said to Owen, owen, if we leave this moment and nothing happens, nothing becomes of was a waste of time. We got to see some amazing turtles, and we got to see one another in person, but it would have been a waste in my eyes.
And it was then that Owen suggested oda, the Outdoor Diversity alliance, and we just started building from there. So this was Owen's idea.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:39:26.630 - 00:40:09.290
And that's Owen Comerford, who. Who was on the Rock fight as well on our. We gave a little plug there to our sister podcast.
Of course, one thing I liked about it that I read in the mission statement was that it has a commitment to learning. And the quote is, we will stumble forward in meaningful action with the understanding that discomfort will be part of the journey.
And I love that because I think that, you know, that does speak to people who are, you know, I think we talked about it before.
The people who want to do something right, but they're very afraid, or they're afraid they're going to make some kind of mistake, or they, you know, maybe they've been so isolated in segregated communities, they're not even sure to act with other. You know what I mean? So I love that part of it.
Teresa Baker
00:40:09.850 - 00:42:07.750
Yeah. I wanted to be intentional with oda. I wanted it to feel different than other nonprofits. I wanted to do things differently.
I wanted to make sure companies that came on board knew that perfection is not an expectation. We want people to try at this. And the fact that we have these brands right now, we're at, like, 20 brands, we want them to work together on this.
And I think that's an easier approach than individuals trying to go at it alone.
And, you know, we met in April of this year at BOA's headquarters in Denver, and we had probably a group of 30 people representing the brands and whatnot. And it was fun. It was joy in that room because people were excited to see one another. And that's what we need.
We need to have in persons where we can have conversations and we can talk about what we're working on without giving away trade secrets, but to show what's worked for them and what hasn't, so that a new brand coming on board doesn't have to trip down the avenue that didn't have a positive outcome.
And that's the hope for oda, is that we can continue to build and make it fun, above all, because this work is ugly at times, it's frustrating at times. People make mistakes, and they. They feel, oh, that's it for me. Time for me to step aside.
So we want to make sure people have the educational pieces so that we can move this outdoor industry forward.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:42:08.950 - 00:42:34.400
I think that's a great point, too, and I think that seems to be where a lot of resistance might come from. Some people, this isn't some kind of mandated. You're going to come in with your fist and make sure stuff is happening.
It's supposed to be a way to make things look right, you know, make things look more like this country, in this world.
Teresa Baker
00:42:34.400 - 00:44:40.870
Right, right, right. Because like I said, these outdoor spaces belong to us all. But in some places, it doesn't feel that way. So how can we change that perception?
How can we make people feel that these are your places? How can we convince brands that this is the work they should be involved in?
And if we look at the projection of how this country is going, your customers are part of the groups that don't feel welcome. So how do you change that? How do you get them to trust you enough to buy your product over someone who's not a part of this work?
And I think that's where we're headed. People are looking at brands, seeing what they are about, and they're making decisions.
Is it brand X that I'm going to work with or buy from, or is it brand B? So what are you a part of? And you have to be vocal about this. You know, silence scares people.
So when you don't hear people talking about this work, it's like, oh, I need to shy away, too. So we need people speaking up about it. It's great that you all are doing this podcast, but we need your voices, too.
Your voices matter because when you speak up, you encourage others to do the same. So that's my ask of open container and, you know, rock fight. That is my ask of you all to step up and use your voices where you can.
People are like, rock fight, Teresa. Oh, you gotta be careful. That's cool. I'm at home in that arena.
So I just want everybody to feel they have a voice, and I want you to use it so that others can hear you and be inspired to do more themselves.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:44:42.310 - 00:45:24.930
I love that. And hopefully I can live up to that as well. I certainly will make a pledge here, keep doing that. But I think it's important.
But as you said, too, we have to keep doing it right.
I know with Elevation Outdoors, sometimes I would try to diversify the photographers, the writers we were getting, and that would be hard sometimes because they just wouldn't be there, which meant I'd have to try to find people and Develop them or work even harder to find people. And then you would find someone and get that work going.
And then you have to start all over again and keep it going because it's kind of this ongoing process to do. It does take work because you're making a complete shift of the paradigm to use that.
Teresa Baker
00:45:25.650 - 00:46:37.750
Yeah. I think you have to be visual in what you're doing. It's not a one and done commitment. It's an over and over and over commitment.
And when you say they're hard to find, where are we looking, you know, for these writers, for these photographers who are the brands hiring as their photographers? I think Chris Burkhart does an amazing job in working with Elle Boogie, Elle Renee, and bringing her on and. Yeah.
Helping her become part of this community. So I think there are individuals out there that are doing their part and we need to highlight them more so that people understand, okay.
To do this work and still be cool. So shout out to the. To the brands that are using photographers of color.
And I'm not saying once you start bringing in these people that you push everyone else aside. I'm saying build a longer table so that more people can be there and more people can be invited in.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:46:38.550 - 00:47:00.140
Build a longer table. I love that. I think that's a great metaphor for. To give to people who would be apprehensive or worried or, you know, in some way. That's fantastic.
Now, are there some companies that you've really seen that you're really impressed with the work they are doing or companies that are really great to, you know, give some props to?
Teresa Baker
00:47:00.860 - 00:48:14.130
Yeah, you know, it's a small company and from the moment I met them, I was impressed, even though they harassed the hell out of me. And that's Rob over at Granite Gear.
I think Granite Gear does such an amazing job with working with people like Jose Gonzalez on creating bags and whatnot. I think they do amazing to be so small. They used to do the IG Live program.
You know, it's been a while, but they used to do that and they would talk to people from underrepresented communities on who they are and what they were doing. I think, of course, as it relates to the environment, Patagonia has always done an amazing job with the environment.
I think all the brands that have signed on to oda, the Outdoor Diversity alliance, is committed to this work. Smartwool BOA thread. I think they're all doing amazing work and we need to continue to support them in that work and encourage them to keep moving.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:48:15.250 - 00:48:46.550
Do you think that the Outdoors itself, just being involved in the outdoors, the outdoor industry, the outdoor life.
Do you think that can help people be more open and see people better and see a wider scope of the world, or do you think it's can also do the opposite, where a lot of mountain communities are isolated and insular and hard for underrepresented groups to have access to? Right.
Teresa Baker
00:48:47.590 - 00:49:50.040
Yeah.
I think there are places that are so isolated that it's going to be hard to find communities of color or underrepresented communities within those communities. But you got to fight harder. You have to make.
If there are events happening, you have to reach out to communities whom you don't have a relationship with and establish those relationships so that they know they're there and that there's an invitation that's been extended to them so that they can get into these isolated areas and learn about them.
There's a lot that can be done, and that's part of our job at oda, is bridging that divide, making sure that we are everywhere, because that's where we belong. That's where we have the right to be. So we have to find avenues that can bridge that divide.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:49:51.559 - 00:50:14.290
Now, I think we hit on this earlier, but I think it's time probably to hit on it really hard, in earnest. Talking about public lands. How.
How worried are you right now for the future of public lands, of the outdoors, of parks, of everything, considering the current administration and Congress?
Teresa Baker
00:50:15.410 - 00:50:59.930
Yeah, I think we have an uphill battle, to be honest. But I also think there's enough people that care about these spaces.
My friend Robert Hanna, who works here in California on public land matters, people are fighting their asses off to undo some of this mess that has taken place over the past six months. People are fighting for these public spaces. We need to keep sharing their stories. I think it will be an uphill battle.
I think what will happen is we'll be five years up the road undoing some of this mess.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:51:00.330 - 00:51:00.730
Right?
Teresa Baker
00:51:01.210 - 00:52:19.800
That's what I think will happen. There will be time spent undoing this mess, and hopefully the damage will be at a minimum.
But, you know, with our politicians being too damn scared to act accordingly to what the people are saying they want, it'll be hard, but we have to keep fighting. These places are worth it. You know, from Alaska to California, we have a battle on our hands. But as a collective, we can do something about this.
And that's why it's important that we collaborate. We come together and work, get a plan in place and work our asses off and trying to stop some of this madness.
But even in that, there is beauty in these places that once we venture out into, we'll understand the why. The why we must put our asses on the line to protect these spaces so we can do it. We just can't give up.
We can't see stuff happening and throw our hands up and be like, I did all I can. You haven't done all you can, so we have to stay at it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:52:20.990 - 00:52:46.110
And I like what you said, too. I mean, do you think it's a chance to bring even, you know, to cast an even wider net for all these people who care about public lands?
I think one thing we're seeing is that, you know, a lot of more conservative people care about public lands as well and don't want to get rid of them. Right.
So is it a chance, do you think, then, to actually bring even more people together over this shared love of this place where we're simply who we are?
Teresa Baker
00:52:47.570 - 00:53:34.670
Wouldn't that be amazing if that's what brought people together? You know, we have all these differences, but we stand true when it comes to our public lands. And if that's what brings us together, I'm for it.
I don't. I don't think the divide between people is that wide, that we can't get beyond it with humanity and compassion.
So I think with all the voices I'm hearing from the side conversations I'm having, people care about this, and now is the time to work, to reach across the table and work with someone that you've had disagreements with in the past. And I have faith in humanity that we can do it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:53:35.470 - 00:53:50.760
How do you think we can continue to engage communities, to build bigger communities that are going to care for outdoor spaces, that are going to care for more diverse communities? How do we continue to build these communities, especially from where we are right now?
Teresa Baker
00:53:52.200 - 00:53:56.920
I think I'm going to speak only from the outdoor industry perspective.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:53:56.920 - 00:53:57.320
Sure.
Teresa Baker
00:53:57.640 - 00:55:04.740
I think like oia, I think Powell, Burton, they all have a genuine love of these outdoor spaces.
And I think as a collective, they can continue to spread the word on the importance of protecting these spaces, get their athletes involved, get these elite athletes more involved in telling the story. I think it could come down to storytelling people telling the stories on why these spaces matter to them from a historical lens, from a today lens.
What this land has meant to your ancestors and what it means to you today.
Telling those stories and connecting the past to the now is how we continue to build trust in one another, and that's what we need we need trust in one another that we will do the right thing in spite of of the huge hurdles that are in front of us.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:55:05.300 - 00:55:25.620
I believe. I believe for sure.
Well, unfortunately, that's bringing us around to the end of the podcast and at which time I always like to ask the same question to everyone who's on here. And the final question is, what gives you hope?
Teresa Baker
00:55:28.350 - 00:56:35.960
What gives me hope is that I'm here with purpose. I don't believe I would be here in this moment working with folks in the outdoor industry if I didn't have purpose.
And I have faith and trust in who I am. And I know that I can make a difference.
I know that I can continue to make a difference and with the people that trust in me, that I surround myself with the naturalist community that I just became a part of by taking a naturalist course with ACR here in Marin County. I trust in the relationships I'm building, and if I'm wrong, time will show that. But I trust that people are being sincere.
And that brings me joy, that brings me happiness knowing that I have a voice in how we move forward with the protection of these outdoor spaces and with building a more diverse outdoor industry.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:56:37.000 - 00:57:06.070
Well, Theresa Baker, I have trust and hope in you and your mission, what you're on. And I think that you do bring the perfect combination of joy and troublemaking to the outdoor industry and to the world in general.
Now, for people who want to get involved with ODA to learn more about In Solidarity or even just people who want to learn from you, what is the best thing for them to do? How can they contact you? How can they get involved?
Teresa Baker
00:57:06.790 - 00:57:54.680
Yeah, they can reach out to outdoor diversityalliance.org, send us an email.
They can visit the website, see the brands that have signed on in solidarity project in solidarityproject.com you can reach out to me at either of those spaces. I'm on insta causing trouble all the time. They can reach out to you all and say, hey, put me in touch with Theresa.
I'm trying to be everywhere all at once to do as much as I can in this moment. So I'd love for folks listening to reach out and let's collaborate on something.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:57:56.280 - 00:58:07.240
Love it. Thank you so much. Hopefully get to check out those redwoods and Big Sur coast, one of my favorite spots with you sometime soon.
So good to have you on the show. Thank you.
Teresa Baker
00:58:07.960 - 00:58:13.080
Thank you. I appreciate you inviting me on and having this conversation.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:58:14.600 - 00:58:46.300
Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight llc.
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on, and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com to learn more about Teresa Baker and her work, head to insolidarityproject.com outdoor diversityalliance.org or follow her on Instagram. Our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Guest that's thanks for listening.
