Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Colin opens the show taking a closer look at this weeks big story: YETI telling retailers they will be sunsetting Mystery Ranch after 2025.
YETI's decision to phase out Mystery Ranch's consumer-facing business while retaining its military operations has raised eyebrows in the outdoor industry. Colin looks at the implications of this move and questions why YETI wouldn't continue to leverage Mystery Ranch as a specialty brand alongside its broader offerings.
Producer Dave contributes insights on the industry's dynamics, reflecting on how acquisitions often reshape brand identities and market strategies.
Then Colin and Producer Dave talk about the odd move of French ski brand blackcrowes setting up a shop-in-shop at two Rapha clubhouses.
Lastly the duo offer their Parting Shots. Producer Dave brings back his book club with another recommendation while Colin defends the real consumer who buys outdoor apparel.
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Episode Transcript
Colin
00:00:00.560 - 00:01:58.657
Rock Fighters.
It's November, which is bad news if you're a turkey, but if you're a retail buyer, it may be the best month of the year because you're laying plans to crush it on your shop floor in 2025. And I have a tip for you. Royal Robins. That's right, Royal Robins. And if you're like, really? Yeah, really.
Royal Robins seems to be gaining traction in a really interesting way.
They're one of the true OGs of outdoor brands, part of that early group of California climbers who kicked off the modern era of the outdoor industry right alongside Tompkins and Chouinard of the North Face and Patagonia. So if anyone can step up, they can. I spoke with the Royal's brand president, Eric Burbank, and they're making moves and planning routes.
Focus on natural fibers, tight merchandising, and a range that knows what it stands for. All the stuff that Royal himself would be down with too, I bet.
Eric will be coming on the Rock Fight next month so we can dig more into Royal's comeback story. And I'll tell you, I've been wearing one of their new wool hoodies, guys, and it feels pretty damn good.
So this November, don't be a turkey, check out Royal Robbins, and next November you'll be thanking yourself. Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True. It's Monday and producer Dave is back in the producer Dave producer's chair.
Today I'm going to give some expanded thoughts on YETI taking Mystery Ranch to the shed and coming back by themselves. Before we get to that, have you subscribed to Rock Fight's weekly newsletter?
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And all right, let's start the show.
Chris DeMakes
00:01:58.721 - 00:02:02.725
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin
00:02:03.905 - 00:02:47.995
All right.
It's been a few days since Rock Fight broke the news that Yeti would be sunsetting Mystery Ranch's consumer packed business after 2025 while keeping their military business. And Boseman built facilities in place as they look to expand YETI bags and packs.
And if you missed Wednesday's episode of the Rock Fight, that's where Justin Halsman and I reacted to multiple sources who reached out to rfhq. You know, Rock Fight headquarters from the Grassroots, the Grassroots Outdoor Connect show. Outdoor Grassroots Outdoor Alliance Connect show.
It's a mouthful that took place this past week in Kansas City. That's also where producer Dave was. But unlike what I've heard from some, he was not our source. Our source will remain anonymous.
But it was not producer Dave. He was busy doing other stuff. Like, I don't know, what were you doing? You were eating Kansas City barbecue most of the time.
Producer Dave
00:02:48.035 - 00:02:52.647
Probably I was. And yes. And wearing comfortable socks.
Colin
00:02:52.791 - 00:02:56.215
There you go. Cause you believe in the sock.
Producer Dave
00:02:56.295 - 00:02:59.063
I do believe in the sock. Thank you, Colin. Thank you.
Colin
00:02:59.199 - 00:10:10.983
That episode was more of an instant reaction to the news. And it just, you know, we just found out about it the day we recorded that episode.
And later that same day, Gear Junkie ran an article covering the story. And thank you to them for giving us credit for breaking the story.
And for those keeping count at home, that's now two outdoor industry stories we've broken here at the Rock Fight. Folks just want to, you know, little pump our tires a little bit there.
But now that I've had a few days to talk to some other folks and process what happened, I figured we'd open today's show going a little deeper on the topic because even though we've been through this type of situation before, I think there's some having a tough time with what it all means. So let's just start with how it all went down. Right.
So according to those who reached out to us from GOA Connect, YETI had a sales representative on site at the show in the Mystery Ranch booth and they were informing retailers about their plans.
As a reminder, Yeti, which is a three and a half billion dollars cooler, drinkware, chair, bag, among many other things, brand bought Mystery Ranch earlier this year for $36 million. Now, Mystery Ranch is the Bozeman, Montana based pack brand that started in 2000 by co founder Dana Gleason.
Dana is of Dana design fame for the old timers listening here. And most Mystery Range products are tactical in nature with a big following in the hunting world.
And while they do make products overseas, they also produce here in the US Hence the military business.
Now when the acquisition went down in January of this year, YETI praised Mystery Ranch's capabilities and how what they do aligns with YETI from the Mystery Ranch side of things, Dana Gleason said, quote, yeti's passion for innovation and the outdoors aligns closely with our founding vision. So you know, like all the typical stuff you hear people say when these things happen.
So for me there were a couple of interesting things in all of this.
My initial question coming out of this was given the size of Yeti, nearly a $4 billion business, and the size of acquisition, which was about $36 million.
Yet when I heard the news that Mystery Ranch was going bye bye, my first thought was why wouldn't YETI just kind of continue to operate Mystery Ranch as a cool specialty focused brand? They could still expand their bag line at yeti, but then have Mystery Ranch serve as the more specialty arm of the brand.
It seems only like the upside of Mystery Ranch just provides legitimacy and the cost of operation being basically a rounding error to a billion other brands that YETI is. Now the simple answer why that's not in the card is that YETI has very little interest in the specialty market.
Prior to this news, I had three unrelated conversations with folks from three different specialty retailers who had told me that they had been cut off from selling YETI entirely in their shops in recent years because they didn't want to carry a broader assortment of YETI products. They wanted to have coolers and maybe some other stuff.
But YETI was going to require them to sell more of their stuff and when the dealer said no, Yeti cut him out. So YETI is big and they want to stay big. They're also weird in how they communicate.
The only head scratching thing to me at all and really how this went down was yeti's inability to confirm what they were doing after we broke the news about Mystery Ranch.
Like I mentioned, Gear Junkie published a piece about that story in which YETI wouldn't confirm anything and they just made a blanket statement that reads as follows.
Reading from the article, they said we continue to be excited about integrating Mystery Ranch's talent and designs into our business and future YETI expansion, building upon their legacy as a premiere maker of incredible packs. How many adjectives do you think are in this, Dave?
That's impressive going into 2025, we plan to have key products for outdoor, everyday and hunt under the Mystery Ranch brand. We have also been hard at work on a pipeline of new bags we are excited to introduce next year.
Our team in Bozeman remains committed to Mystery Ranch's mission to support those who serve in the military and wildland fire and the mission products will remain under the Mystery Ranch name going forward. Gear Ducky's article also states that YETI is responding to rumors of the phase out. It was their words, phase out.
The problem with that and with the YETI statement is these aren't rumors. They had a brand representative sitting at a trade show booth talking to retailers one after another about their plans and there were no NDAs.
These weren't private conversations.
In fact, we almost didn't even talk about it on Wednesday's POD because when I first heard about it I kind of assumed my source was revealing something confidential. And I then confirmed with them that this was public and they responded, yeah, they're telling everyone.
So if they were looking to keep it quiet, they weren't trying very hard.
Now I suppose that's, you know, the word spreading organically versus them outright saying it and possibly having a bit of self inflicted PR problem is why they won't put it on the record. But people are going to find out at some point.
But they also probably don't have to worry about bad PR because it seems like there is just a lot of love out there for yeti.
I was looking at some threads on Reddit that were posted after the Mystery Ranch acquisition went down earlier this year and if there was going to be outrage, it would have been found on Reddit. If you frequent that site, you know what I'm talking about. But consumers were largely not that worried at all.
In fact, Mystery Ranch fans, they weren't upset about it. Some people were even commenting that it would be good for the brand to have some skew rationalization at the hands of a bigger owner.
Will that goodwill continue when Mystery Ranch is no longer available in the consumer sector? I mean, we'll have to see.
But for me the main learning this past week is that we now know what interest YETI had in the brand in the first place, which was their military business and the pack design, knowledge and infrastructure that Mystery Ranch has built up in Bozeman, as apparently that will continue to operate in Montana as YETI expands into its own bags and packs business.
And lastly, before we bring producer Dave in to get his thoughts, any Mystery Ranch superfans out there look don't shed a tear, because this is what happens. This is business as usual. Acquisitions happen. Brands grow, they shrink. They sometimes disappear entirely.
I mean, all I have to do to get a few people listening to this to start nodding along is say the name Moonstone or even Cloud Veil. You know, at least Mystery Ranch will go out kind of on top with a clean death.
And you won't have to hear me talking about them in 2031 as another zombie brand during their third attempt at a comeback after YETI sold off their trademark or something.
But, well, we at least hope that's not what's going to happen, because if Yeti hits some hard times in the future, we may have to brace ourselves for the Mystery Ranch relaunch. But for me, the most interesting thing to come out of this is what happens now. And who takes Mr. Ranch's place at specialty shops?
Because if I were the sales manager of a backpack brand that cares at all for the US Outdoor specialty market, the second I got wind of this move, I would be pummeling my sales team to get moving and reach out to dealers. Because more importantly to them than a brand just getting shut down is that the open to buy for backpacks in 2026 just opened up.
Getting placement in any part of a shop or taking someone else's share is tough, tough work. And for many dealers, it will probably be simple to fill in the Mystery Ranch gap on their pack wall with maybe a couple of more ospreys.
But to the Pingoras, the deuters, the Nemos out there, this is your call to action. And I wouldn't wait around. I mean, create a adios Mystery Ranch sales program and go get that check.
So that's what I'm interested to see, what happens to the broader pack market in the coming years as that space opens up. But, Dave, I imagine you have some Mystery Ranch YETI thoughts that I'd love to hear about.
Producer Dave
00:10:11.119 - 00:10:14.343
I don't know, Colin. What is there to say? What is there to say?
Colin
00:10:14.439 - 00:10:15.955
That's the show, everybody.
Producer Dave
00:10:16.895 - 00:10:35.815
Right? And we're done here. I do want to say that I really do enjoy my Nemo pack, by the way. So there are options out there. Well made, thoughtful design.
They are out there.
Colin
00:10:36.275 - 00:10:37.323
They exist.
Producer Dave
00:10:37.459 - 00:12:25.075
They do. So unfortunately, we've seen this playbook over and over for sure. And look in all of this. This is our podcast Speculation.
Can't speak to the overall financial health of Mystery Ranch. I have no idea really what's going on there. There may be real structural issues that they're nipping in the bud and they're just not talking about.
There could be cultural issues. We have no idea those kind of reasons why. Okay, so, but let's just say. But as an industry, right?
As an industry, this is just not a positive thing at all. You know, I heard a couple folks, you know, definitely people were talking about this at goa.
I heard a couple folks talk to this as the Columbiaization of Yeti.
You know, another brand that famously loves to internalize everything and then they invented it or versus a third party or go their own way outside of the specialty world and just kind of play over there in their own sandbox and. Yeah, I definitely see that.
But I will say just about Colombia, though, while they've definitely jettisoned brands before, they have found the value of a diverse portfolio of unique brands. Right. And we like to poke sticks at some of their branding choices, for sure.
But by keeping a stable of different brands, they do contribute to the overall health of the industry. They're able to play in the specialty.
While the master brand, Columbia, does remain a little bit aloof, but, you know, we need that mix of brands that are unique perspectives and outlooks and even vibes.
Even if sometimes all the products seem to look the same, it's still nice having a unique, you know, a vibrant galaxy of new that attract new and existing customers. And it's just obviously, you know, better for the health of the industry.
Colin
00:12:25.535 - 00:12:42.815
Yeah, I mean, that's obviously the brand. Right? I mean, the brands are what. What category is more of a sea of saving this than the outdoor category? But it's.
What do you gravitate towards brand wise? It's kind of like, Right. You know, it's the like, oh, that resonates for me.
Yeah, they have kind of the same stuff over here, but like, I like these guys.
Producer Dave
00:12:42.855 - 00:12:58.215
But it's like we talk about with retail, though, if we lose our diverse mix and get, you know, funneled down to two choices, that's gonna be its own gatekeeping to the industry in terms of who really wants to participate. It's nice having multiple doors or prisms kind of interact with.
Colin
00:12:59.075 - 00:13:09.251
Speaking of Bran, I'm a little worried that you said you kind of. You're kind of pivoting to this being the stick poker podcast. This is the rock fight podcast. You know, you're throwing. You're not poking sticks.
We're throwing rocks.
Producer Dave
00:13:09.363 - 00:13:13.339
We're always, we're always looking for new ideas for shows. Colin. Right?
Colin
00:13:13.427 - 00:13:14.723
The spin off of the rock Fight.
Producer Dave
00:13:14.779 - 00:13:20.491
That's right. It's a little closer Combat. That's right. We're going to get deeper and closer to our subject. We're going to stick poke.
Colin
00:13:20.643 - 00:13:21.643
Actually a pretty good idea.
Producer Dave
00:13:21.699 - 00:13:52.583
Right? There you go. But by taking players off the board, obviously it does leave room for new players. Right? And you gotta love that.
But it doesn't mean we should always have to cheer the process of creative destruction. Right? Especially from brands that seem to have carved out a unique niche and a place.
And product stories like Mystery Ranch, I mean, that's the thing, too. It's not like its product wasn't resonating and it has a. It has a cut, you know, a devoted customer to it.
Colin
00:13:52.679 - 00:14:15.759
No, they're in the sweet spot. Right. I mean, that's kind of what the thing I was saying about, like, why not just let them be the cool specialty brand? Because they're at that.
I mean, so, okay, they get sold for 36, so they're probably worth somewhere in that 18 to 22 range. Right. They're not that big, but they have loyal fans and that. Like, they're still in that kind of.
I know about them before other people did or don't even know about them at all. Like, they're cool. Right. They're still at that perfect spot.
Producer Dave
00:14:15.847 - 00:14:49.385
Right. Well, and that's why I think.
And look, at the end of the day, there's probably nothing more to this than what I say is finance people salivating over cost savings versus maintaining two brands. And like you said, even though it's a small rounding error in that they can see the cost savings.
And of course, I also see maniacal laughs coming from the boardroom over clearing the way for yeti's line of packs that will mysteriously look a lot like this former brand we once knew. I can't place my finger on it.
Colin
00:14:50.265 - 00:14:52.585
Slightly decontented for cost purposes. Right.
Producer Dave
00:14:52.665 - 00:15:18.001
But I can't also help think that there might be a bit of jealousy involved.
And what I mean by that is, what would a $3 billion rocket ship like Yeti, who makes a gazillion percent margin on their plastic things, what would they have to be jealous about? And nothing really. Right. Except when you're a brand like yeti, I say you're built from the fires of testosterone mountain. You know what I mean?
It's just like they're definitely kind of.
Colin
00:15:18.033 - 00:15:20.017
Pegged that dark lord Sauron.
Producer Dave
00:15:20.121 - 00:16:01.383
That's right. Right. That side cruelty into the one cooler. But a brand like Mystery Ranch actually already has that. They have legitimacy.
Badass American made that real tougher than you.
Adopted by one of the hardest to, to attract subcultures to, you know, as their core customer and not something that they kind of just created over YouTube videos. Right? I mean, really, it's just, it's legitimate and that kind of exposes Yeti for the tumbler that they are.
I mean, insanely profitable tumbler, right? And you know, but at the end of the day, they make plastic things.
Colin
00:16:01.479 - 00:16:05.143
And, well, you need a tumbler to go inside the cooler. So you do.
Producer Dave
00:16:05.239 - 00:16:11.367
Well, you know, Mystery Ranch is the pack you take on the hunt and you know, Yeti is what you put your catch in to keep cold.
Colin
00:16:11.511 - 00:16:13.951
Right. It stays in the truck though.
Producer Dave
00:16:14.023 - 00:16:53.735
It does, it does. But look, and look, they're not the first to. This is great kind of classic catch and kill. A brand, you know, not wanting to compete with it.
You know, even when you own it, you don't want to compete with it. And so I don't think that's anything new necessarily, but it does seem a little petty because it's so small. But this is.
I did do a little searching back and Colin, you can go back to the fitness wars of the 1980s, right?
I mean, think back then when, you know, General Jane Fonda was leading the charge through her VHS inspiration speeches and Danskin and Bally and Capicio Legs, they were girding the flanks.
Colin
00:16:53.815 - 00:16:54.595
Legs.
Producer Dave
00:16:55.575 - 00:17:06.675
And of course, after setbacks, Nike would emerge victorious. But it was a hard fought battle, dude, there were leg warmers and unitards everywhere. Colin, we shall never forget.
Colin
00:17:07.135 - 00:17:09.687
If you don't mention Richard Simmons, I'm going to be mad.
Producer Dave
00:17:09.871 - 00:17:33.099
Right, well, thank you, thank you. But go back to the 80s. This is a classic case of catch and kill. Reebok was on a high.
They had displaced Nike as the number one sports brand on the power of women in aerobics. You had a slew of new competitors coming in.
LA Gear and Avia were challenging Reebok at the studio, Aviya even making, yeah, making inroads into real broader actions.
Colin
00:17:33.107 - 00:17:35.055
He was on the horizon, right?
Producer Dave
00:17:35.635 - 00:18:03.455
And so what did Reebok do? Instead of he fucked it up, they bought, well, that was later, but then they bought Avia and unceremoniously killed it, right?
And it wasn't just, it wasn't even, they didn't even hide it. It was just like instead of having two of the brands, they didn't want to compete with this upstart that was kind of gaining some kind of cool.
And now Avia's apparition haunts the aisles of Walmart to this day. And that's kind of what happens.
Colin
00:18:03.575 - 00:18:17.799
What was the. Is that a fair comparison? I mean, I mean this is such a big size difference between yeti for YETI to look at Mystery Ranch as a threat.
And you really think, I mean like a 20 as a 24 year old brand at that point. I mean, I don't know how much bigger Mystery Ranch could really get to on their own.
Producer Dave
00:18:17.887 - 00:18:30.301
I don't think it's a threat. I don't think it's about, you know, competing that kind of way. I think in the case, both cases, I imagine ego has as much to do with it.
It's just more of sharing the limelight.
Colin
00:18:30.453 - 00:18:30.789
Right.
Producer Dave
00:18:30.837 - 00:19:09.065
Right. I think that's it. It's not really via really.
I don't know if they would ever really going to be able to catch Reebok or Nike at that matter in their backyard. It's just now they definitely won't. Yeah. What they were just kind of hanging around and kind of taking some of the shine.
But like I said, this is not a new, this is not a new practice. The outdoor has been filled with it too. I, you know, kind of going down this list.
Let's pour some out, Colin, that are no longer with us like Tailwise Jerry Outdoor products. These are from the 70s and the 80s. Jerry's still kicking kind of. Yeah. Dana Design more on the zombie side than right.
Colin
00:19:09.145 - 00:19:09.793
Yeah.
Producer Dave
00:19:09.969 - 00:19:38.425
Reichley, you know, the boot maker. I think the moot kind of absorbed them. Of course there's Go Light and, and like you mentioned Cloud Veil and Moonstone.
I mean it's just, there's just, it's just like you said, it's the way of how this industry works. And sometimes it's for the better and sometimes it's just it leaves us kind of hanging as to why. And I say, Colin, good night.
Sweet pine cones, may you someday emerge as Tall Timbers versus the fate of Mystery Ranch and being turned into kindling.
Colin
00:19:40.045 - 00:20:18.389
You're right. And it's a. And I don't mean to come off as just jaded and be like, hey everybody, get over it. I mean because it is like I didn't even.
I mean I was obviously aware of Mystery Ranch and knew what they were up to. But if you had said to me before this past week, when did that brand start? I would have said like early 2010s.
I didn't realize they were actually founded in 2000, which by the way makes their survival and even growth and success, no matter how big or small it is even way more present. They came without a doubt right this Is smart wool coming out of the plastic socks of the 90s. Same thing, 2000.
This is when the go lights and the ultralight thing is really taking hold and everyone wants lighter and faster and they're like, you know what we're going to do? We're going to go burly burlier.
Producer Dave
00:20:18.517 - 00:20:21.741
Well, you know, it's the same thing of, you know, hoka going maximal.
Colin
00:20:21.813 - 00:20:24.301
Yeah, exactly at a time from the negative heel.
Producer Dave
00:20:24.413 - 00:20:37.835
Right? Yeah, sure, sure. Again, new encounter grain. If you can. If you can weather always the initial rejection to new concept always wins out. Right?
It's going to win out.
Colin
00:20:37.955 - 00:21:00.907
And it is a bummer. And it's a bummer that yeti doesn't value specialty as evidenced by those three retailers I talked about who.
Why wouldn't you just let them sell the coolers? No, you're not going to sell our full assortment. You're not worth our time. You're out. And it's kind of the same mindset here.
It's like, all right, we got what we needed from these guys. Maybe there's some threat to your point. And here's the technology we like and guess what we're going to do? We're going to put it in the yeti.
Producer Dave
00:21:00.971 - 00:21:13.763
Yep, yep. I think this is the larger issue that we talk about with trade shows.
It's when these brands get to a size that they then turn on the industry that help create them and overall it weakens it for everybody.
Colin
00:21:13.939 - 00:22:22.675
Right, right.
But now we saw the summer at outdoor retailer like a new brand like Pingora, who one of the co founders was one of the first employees at Codepoxy and they' doing something different. You mentioned Nemo earlier. Nemo is really working hard to import, to put different recyclable materials and recyclability into their products.
And this isn't apparel. Right.
I just got a couple of packs have arrived that we're going to be testing for gear and beer and you look at the complex nature of how these things are made and like how to, you know, and it's definitely, it's like apparel in terms of it's matured and we know how things fit and how they should be made, but there's also not as much room for like there is for apparel.
So this does open up a spot, you know, and as long as again, like the only brand out there that is sort of the, you know, the 800 pound gorilla for the category is Osprey at this point, or I guess REI might be number two if you're, you know, because of what their stores are. But here you go guys. Here's the opportunity. Someone just really cleared a spot out.
You know, you were going to, you know, I mentioned the Nemos and the Deuters and the Pingoras. You were going to have to scrap for some of that share. Well, some share just opened up.
So who goes in and wins it is going to be really interesting to watch to me.
Producer Dave
00:22:23.045 - 00:22:24.165
Yeah, agreed.
Colin
00:22:24.285 - 00:22:32.493
So. Well, there you go. That's all we have. We're not talking about. We're done. No more Mystery rancher or yeti talk.
Producer Dave
00:22:32.669 - 00:22:42.549
No, no. That's just a no until they relaunch Mystery Ranch as this OG Originals collection of Mystery Ranch to the consumer.
Colin
00:22:42.677 - 00:22:44.661
It's happening. You know it was going to go, right?
Producer Dave
00:22:44.773 - 00:22:48.621
Absolutely. This is just the beginning of the next originals collection.
Colin
00:22:48.693 - 00:22:54.265
Just wait for a couple of bad quarters of down sales and then they're like, oh, we got to do.
Producer Dave
00:22:54.705 - 00:22:55.889
Or a collab.
Colin
00:22:56.017 - 00:23:08.881
Or a collab. It's coming. Also, by the way, like, we're not looking to break news here. We're just the only ones who aren't afraid to say something.
There's a big difference. It's like we hear stuff, we're like, yeah, we'll talk about that.
Producer Dave
00:23:08.993 - 00:23:12.365
I think that's like a broken clock being right twice a day, Colin.
Colin
00:23:13.385 - 00:26:45.255
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So one other story we want to talk about this week, there was a press release came out earlier this month that we didn't get a chance to talk about last week. So I wanted to bring it up today. That press release was about French ski brand Black Crows. All one word, by the way, not two words, not capitalized.
It's a little weird. I don't know. Like Black Rose, which has opened up two pop up shops inside cycling brand Rafa's Seattle and Boulder locations.
Those stores opened up on November 1st and they will be open through the winter ski season.
According to Black Rose president Pat Sherlock, the rationale for putting the shops inside Arafah stores where that they allow us to celebrate two treasured pursuits, skiing and cycling, while creating space for locals to engage with Black Crows and prepare for the upcoming winter season. I mean, the reason I wanted to talk about it is it just seems like a kind of a weird move.
I mean, I understand the collaboration that can exist between cycling and skiing, but look, Black Rose is a French brand, so maybe they're not quite as well known in the States as other ski brands, but they are available in places like rei. It's not like they're breaking into the US Market. It's not that kind of move.
So I assume for them they're trying to attract a specific type of customer. And like I said, there's some synergy between a summer sport and a winter sport.
But Rapha stores are known for catering to a specific type of cyclist. It's not just a bike shop that is now having a ski shop added into it. These places are known as clubhouses.
The Rapha Clubhouse Rafa has built its brand kind of leaning into the vanity of road cycling, which, you know, I'm sure there are Rapha cycling enthusiasts who also ski, but it just isn't really an obvious thing to integrate a ski shop and shop into a location that most people go to for coffee and a group ride. So if there isn't an obvious brand move happening here and there isn't an obvious collaboration happening, what's the upside for either brands?
The last thing I'll add before getting Dave's thoughts on this is Rapha has been struggling, so perhaps they're the ones who are initiating this.
There was an article on Bicycling.com last month that details how Rafah has had seven consecutive years of financial losses and kind of saying that they're sort of at this point where they really need to get their shit together if they're going to make it at all. So, again, maybe it's Rafa is the one that's pushing for this. But even if that's the case, this does seem like an odd move.
I don't know, Dave, what do you think?
Producer Dave
00:26:45.555 - 00:26:59.711
Well, I'm not going to lie. When you first brought this story up about Black Crows, I was stoked because I saw them a few times live and I've liked them since the 90s.
And I think Southern Harmony and Musical Companion is just an excellent album.
Colin
00:26:59.843 - 00:27:02.183
And do you have the remedy, Dave? Do you have the remedy?
Producer Dave
00:27:02.279 - 00:27:09.687
I do have the remedy. I think the remedy, actually, for our industry is so that raw, real energy that only the crows can give you.
Colin
00:27:09.831 - 00:27:12.479
Bring back the black. Are they still touring? They must still be touring.
Producer Dave
00:27:12.607 - 00:27:18.567
You know, I think they had a falling out. I think the brothers kind of, you know, that typical, typical thing.
Colin
00:27:18.591 - 00:27:22.695
But they were Oasis before Oasis kind of.
Producer Dave
00:27:22.735 - 00:28:33.619
Right. Just kind of that raw. Wearing leather pants. But no, yeah, I agree with everything that you're saying. It seemed like a weird fit together.
I get the idea of it. And on a paper that makes sense, right, You've got a European ski brand looking to make inroads in the US market.
Rafa is obviously, it's got its fans, it's got its niche and it's got its reputation.
But, yeah, I do think it's a little miscalculation in terms of understanding possibly the American cycling market and versus the ski market, where in Europe that may make a lot more sense.
Where here you would think that possibly there's plenty of outdoor specialty shops that maybe aren't fully into ski that would have made a more natural partner, you know, as you're trying to break into to the fuller ski side of things, create a unique point of difference during the winter. I just. I think that there's.
There's a lot of places my mind would have gone if I'm going to introduce Black Crows in that way or try to expand introduction.
And I do think your point about Rafa might be the more interesting take here in that here is this brand that had a lot of hype around it and it made a lot of.
Colin
00:28:33.627 - 00:28:35.475
Juice in the mid 2010s.
Producer Dave
00:28:35.555 - 00:29:30.907
That's right. And carve their niche. But they haven't been able to get to profitability.
Look, even at Polar Tech days, we were always kind of mystified how cyclists would pay so much for a bike and then so little on clothing. And that seems to maybe still hold true, or at least that look, it's such a road specific look.
And that is only going to be so far in the United States. Even in the highest popularity or say an Olympic year, you're still going to only be able to attract so much to it. But look, I like niche businesses.
I think having a true personality and point of view is definitely the right way.
But yeah, getting a little more gravitational pull or breaking away from that is going to be tough for both of these in that way, which just does, you know, Colin, I don't see why Rafa just wouldn't do what any other self respecting cyclist would do to gain a competitive advantage.
Colin
00:29:31.091 - 00:29:31.899
What's that?
Producer Dave
00:29:32.027 - 00:29:38.195
Well, juice, epo, liquid gold, man. Vitamin T, the sauce, Hollywood hormones.
Colin
00:29:38.275 - 00:29:39.295
I don't know, man.
Producer Dave
00:29:40.035 - 00:29:40.747
What are we doing?
Colin
00:29:40.811 - 00:29:49.731
Consecutive years of losses. I don't know what exists out there. Like just a grand theft. Like, what do they need to get some cash in there?
What's the EPO equivalent of making money?
Producer Dave
00:29:49.843 - 00:29:56.167
They better. They better stay away from Portland because they'll lose their bike, that's for sure. Holy cow. Where'd it go?
Colin
00:29:56.191 - 00:29:58.079
I was trying to. I was just in for.
Producer Dave
00:29:58.127 - 00:30:02.759
I was just in for a little doping and then I left and my bike was gone. What the hell?
Colin
00:30:02.807 - 00:30:11.623
Maybe that's the thing. Okay. We finally got weed pretty much, you know, established. We need like now we got like, where's the doping shop that we open up?
Can we have medicinal doping like we did with. That's how we worked for a week.
Producer Dave
00:30:11.639 - 00:30:13.223
That's next to the mushroom boutique.
Colin
00:30:13.319 - 00:30:19.311
Yeah, that's a good point. Get in line behind mushrooms. Psychedelics are gonna be first. Then we'll get into blood doping after that.
Producer Dave
00:30:19.383 - 00:30:20.531
Right? There you go.
Colin
00:30:20.603 - 00:30:47.615
It's just weird.
I'm trying to like, if you're, if you're a person who would go to a Rafa clubhouse, because that's, that's how they really define these things, is like, we want this to be the place where you gather on the weekends. Your group ride starts here. We have a little cafe, the whole cycling experience and you walk in.
And even if you're a skier and if you're in Seattle or Boulder, you probably are a skier and you walk in and like, oh, there's a ski display for one brand. Not just like. It's not a ski display.
Producer Dave
00:30:48.035 - 00:30:57.303
Disney. Well, it's not necessarily the vibe of a Rafa. Like it at least my perception as an American.
But, you know, attending ISPO for all those years and seeing them Kind of rise up.
Colin
00:30:57.319 - 00:30:58.935
Yeah, it's more of a free ride brand, aren't they?
Producer Dave
00:30:59.015 - 00:31:15.795
Yeah, they had a cooler vibe to them. A little more counterculture, a little more again, that free ride kind of thing.
And I always dug their graphics and just kind of the way they presented themselves, it was a little more rock and roll, frankly. And now we feel like Rafa's more of like chamber music.
Colin
00:31:16.135 - 00:31:52.927
I feel like the best case scenario would be if you go into the clubhouse, you see the black rose display. You may be like, oh, yeah, I need some ski stuff. And then there'll be like a reminder to go to the ski shop you usually go to.
Like, you probably wouldn't get it there. I think that's almost like the best case outcome here.
Um, and if, look, if this is just, you know, Rafa grasping at straws, I feel like there's other maybe straws you could grasp if you want to like expand and get more people to come into your shops. I don't know, it's just that it's. It's a, it's a very much a head scratching, kind of weird collab going on here.
So anyone, black crows or Rafa who wants to come on and talk to us about this collaboration for sure, totally.
Producer Dave
00:31:52.951 - 00:31:55.787
Would love to know. Right on.
Colin
00:31:55.931 - 00:32:07.363
If you heard our episode about Ultra and Smartwell, you know that Dave and I are big fans of the collab when executed well. So we would love to hear, like, what it is that we're missing. So that was an example of one we didn't like though.
Producer Dave
00:32:07.419 - 00:32:08.215
Play nice.
Colin
00:32:09.515 - 00:33:31.105
Hey, you outdoor retailers, listen up. You're sick of it, aren't you?
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Get in touch by sending an email to infomalpine.com and set up a line showing today Northwest Alpine made here for all the right reasons. All right, it's time for the parting shot.
Producer Dave
00:33:39.375 - 00:33:41.075
It's time for our party.
Colin
00:33:43.295 - 00:33:44.783
Who goes first? You going first.
Producer Dave
00:33:44.919 - 00:33:56.647
Okay, Mine is going to be a book and it's for all of those, you know, coming out of the election and the trade show season. So I'm picking a nice kind of feel good topic that we can kind of get behind.
Colin
00:33:56.751 - 00:33:58.087
Is that a Dave Berry book?
Producer Dave
00:33:58.151 - 00:34:01.875
It's called the Sixth Extinction, An Unnatural History.
Colin
00:34:02.695 - 00:34:11.517
We're keeping it light here on the rock fight today. Maybe I should go first because no one's going to listen to mine after that.
Producer Dave
00:34:11.541 - 00:34:17.157
You speak. Right? Right. There's been six extinction events in the human, in the history of the planet.
Colin
00:34:17.261 - 00:34:18.645
Let's hear about the sixth extinction.
Producer Dave
00:34:18.725 - 00:35:27.185
So the Sixth Extinction, it's a Pulitzer winning prize book by Elizabeth Colbert. Many of you have probably have heard of this or read it. It is about the six extinction events that has happened during the history of the planet.
Times when, when life kind of gets reduced by up to 75% is really kind of this extinction event. And, and it chronicles through them.
Of course, you know, you know about the dinosaurs, but there's actually the, you know, the mega fungal extinction and the coral reef extinction and the, you know, the Neanderthals is an extinction. And of course we're building towards one about pollution. Right.
And so it just, it's nice to frame that what we're seeing happen through human history isn't necessarily unique. We're not as special as we think we are that there has been other extinction events too in the planet.
And look, over millions of years, the planet does regenerate. It builds back a base where life can flourish again. And I don't see why that won't happen here. It's just whether will we be around to witness it?
Colin
00:35:28.035 - 00:35:36.203
You can get more from producer Dave's Nihilist radio over on iHeartradio. And that's right, that's right.
Producer Dave
00:35:36.339 - 00:35:38.587
And the Rainforest Action Network, the Fuck.
Colin
00:35:38.611 - 00:36:01.679
It all podcast is brought to you by. No, I've always said that. I've never liked anybody who's like, oh, we need to save the planet. Like no, we need to save ourselves.
The planet will be just fine. It has proven through millennia that it like, like no, you could fuck up things pretty bad here and something else will kickstart it over again.
It will be fine. It's just going to be a matter of can we figure out how to not kill ourselves in the process.
Producer Dave
00:36:01.767 - 00:36:04.835
That's right. Unforced error, I believe is what that's called.
Colin
00:36:05.135 - 00:36:07.439
We're big fans of the unforced error here on the Rock Fight.
Producer Dave
00:36:07.527 - 00:36:08.635
That's what you are.
Colin
00:36:09.095 - 00:37:57.235
So my parting shot this past week on LinkedIn, I was actually tagged by Rock Fight's UK head of international, Neil Valio, on a thread by a person who declared that they recently bought a coat epoxy puffy jacket over a Patagonia puffy jacket because Because Patagonia is pretentious and codepoxy is not. And that in and of itself is a worthy topic for my parting shot.
But then I read through the comments on this thread and many of whom were folks in and around the outdoor industry responding to a inflammatory statement designed to get comments on a social media platform. And my own response to this was hey, they're both pretentious. But buried in the comments was one that read, I'll stick with my Walmart brands.
They keep me just as warm. And then there was a follow up to that that was or Costco the best $20 pair of pants. And for me reading this, that was actually my takeaway. Right?
That's the everyday person out there that many of us aren't considering when we go deep on podcasts like this one and when we're talking about the outdoor industry bullshit that we all are consumed within our daily lives. That's the person who can't recognize the greenwashing of something like Polartech's shed less fleece or REI.
Only responding to the PFAS issue in 2023 because they're gonna trust the hangtags and the blurbs on a website.
I don't know anything about a pair of $20 pants at Costco other than they absolutely exist and I bet that there's some sort of hang tag on them explaining why the environment was saved by their creation.
So my parting shot is, remember outdoor industry people, we live this shit, but we don't get to be a billion to trillion dollar industry on our backs. Most of the people who buy the stuff we produce are simply shopping for clothes and shoes that make them feel good. So please act accordingly.
That's my parting shot.
Producer Dave
00:37:57.395 - 00:38:33.959
Colin. Nice. Thank you. I Get that. I think that's a great, great message.
And it is easy to come off sometimes as a little pretension, as we kind of do focus on some of these issues that to the mainstream might seem as arcane, but still, we shouldn't stop doing it. And so I look at both Patagonia and Cotopaxi as laudable in what they're trying to do. But I do get the air that may be you put some people off.
And I felt that too, Colin. I've actually turned my Cotopaxi in for a Balenciaga. I figure that might be just a little less pretentious.
Colin
00:38:34.007 - 00:38:35.063
The least pretentious brand.
Producer Dave
00:38:35.119 - 00:38:41.783
That's right. That's right. And so. Because if I'm going to spend seventeen hundred dollars for a jacket, it better be unpretentious.
Colin
00:38:41.919 - 00:38:47.895
I mean, isn't the whole thing kind of bullshit? If you have a brand, aren't you pretentious by default? Hey, look at me.
Producer Dave
00:38:48.015 - 00:38:55.575
Yeah, right, right. And look, choose me over something else. Yes, right. I know. It's kind of part of the party, part of the game.
Colin
00:38:56.555 - 00:39:17.267
All right, well, we can wrap it up there. The Rock Fight is a production of Rock, llc. Our producer today was producer David Karstad. Art direction provided by Sarah.
That blank white space is mocking me. Gentzert. I'm Colin Shrew. Thanks for listening and here to take us out, our guy Chris Demaix is back again to sing the Rock Fight Fight song.
We'll see you next time, Rock Fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:39:17.331 - 00:40:15.785
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Rock fight welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree we talk about human powered outdoor activities and pic bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head.
This is where we speak our truth this is where we speak our truth Rock flight Rock fight Rock fight Welcome to the Rock Fight Rock fight, Rock fight welcome to the Rock flight Rock flight Rock fight Rock flight Rock fight Rock fight welcome to the Rock Fight Rock fight Rock fight, Rock fight.