The Real Impact of MAP Policies

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Today on The Rock Fight Colin is joined by outdoor industry insider Eoin Comerford and brand and creative expert Producer Dave (aka The Monday Boys) to hit on the following headlines and topics that are percolating around the outdoor industry:

• Outdoor Industry History! In what year did these outdoor headlines occur? (04:41)

• Industry ups and downs: Clarus & Fenix struggle in their recent earnings while Hoka and UG continue to thrive. But is the Deckers rocket ship starting to slow down? (08:10)

• Hope for ski resorts? Two recent stories buck the trend of bad news for snowsports. Was this a good week or a sign of things to come? (17:35)

• The Rock Fight LIGHTNING ROUND! The fastest 3 minutes of news in outdoor media. This week we hit the new House of Sport store coming to SoCal, Dad's leading the back to school charge, and insole maker Ortholite sold for $770m! (21:23)

• A recent lawsuit out of the hunt/fish world highlights the importance of MAP pricing. We discuss. (25:52)

For The Parting Shot, apparently last Wednesday's tribute by Colin about Malcom Jamal Warner was just the beginning of a bad week for Gen X because we also lost Ozzy Osbourne and Hulk Hogan. We pour a little out for these 80's icons (even if Hulk did turn out to be a scumbag). (42:16)

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Episode Transcript:

Colin True

00:00:00.320 - 00:00:45.860

Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True, and today we're talking about minimally at advertised prices.

I mean, what could be more exciting than that? But before we get to that, before we get to that, tomorrow, be sure to check out a new episode of Open Container with Doug Schnitzbahn.

Follow and listen to Open Container on your favorite podcast app.

And please be sure you click Follow and leave us a five star review on whatever podcast app you're using right now so you never miss an episode of the Rock Fight. And hey, if you're on Apple podcasts, we would certainly appreciate a written review.

Send that written review, a screenshot of that written review to myrockfightmail.com and we'll hook you up with some Rock Fight stickers and. All right, stick around. We'll be right back.

Eoin Comerford

00:00:46.420 - 00:00:53.540

Do you care that it's minimum advertised prices as opposed to minimally advertised prices? No, I don't.

Colin True

00:00:53.780 - 00:00:54.740

It's all boring.

Producer Dave

00:00:55.300 - 00:00:57.620

I think that's an important distinction, frankly.

Chris DeMakes

00:00:58.880 - 00:01:02.160

To the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.

Colin True

00:01:04.960 - 00:03:38.280

Don't let our big time production value and celebrity names fool you. Looking at you, producer Dave, but Rock Fight LLC is a small business and growing brand.

And even though we have our own consigliere, he advises on other matters. We've got to consult a lawyer every now and then on the legal structures that every business needs.

But for a small business like ours, the cost to hire general counsel or pay a retainer is a non starter. So what's an outdoorsy founder to do? I mean, come on, we're not flashing that outside money. Enter Conatus Council.

They can help your business with fractional general counsel and legal services.

From strategy consulting to advocacy and government affairs to real world implementation for outdoor recreation industry businesses, Forest over at Kanatas Council has helped Rock Fight navigate some of these areas. And let me tell you, knowing someone has your back means you can focus on running your business.

I mean, he had at least three edits to this read to quote unquote, protect us from ourselves. I mean, that's what I'm talking about. Forest cares just as much about the outdoors and the outdoor industry as our listeners. So, got questions?

Conatuscouncil.com to get in touch with Forest. The first six hours are free. Wait, what? What? I can't say that. Oh, initial consultations are free. Okay, fine.

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Chris DeMakes

00:03:38.360 - 00:03:47.400

Be a shop floor hero. Endeavor's here to stay. Shop floor hero is the way.

Colin True

00:03:50.930 - 00:04:00.570

Okay, I'm here with outdoor industry insider Owen Comerford. And back from his recent suspension, podcaster producer Dave. Dave, is it time to reveal why you weren't here?

Producer Dave

00:04:00.570 - 00:04:06.930

I don't even remember. Like, it's been so long ago, and I clearly had other priorities, like, what's going on?

Colin True

00:04:07.250 - 00:04:08.450

Well, welcome back, Dave.

Producer Dave

00:04:08.450 - 00:04:09.010

Thank you.

Colin True

00:04:09.330 - 00:04:10.210

We missed you.

Producer Dave

00:04:10.370 - 00:04:10.730

Sure.

Eoin Comerford

00:04:10.730 - 00:04:17.459

Poor Dave. He's just trying to recover from, you know, a whole week of OMA and just give him some grief.

Colin True

00:04:17.539 - 00:04:21.779

Are you bummed out that you missed out on our conversation about Solomon? That's really the real question.

Producer Dave

00:04:21.779 - 00:04:30.419

I am. Well, look, if I'm going to forget a conversation, Solomon's going to be the one. Clearly, that. We've proven that, so I think that works.

Eoin Comerford

00:04:30.659 - 00:04:33.299

Poor Solomon. What did they ever do to you?

Producer Dave

00:04:33.379 - 00:04:39.019

Nothing. Nothing at all. They made the product. I mean, it's a little narrow, but I, you know, overall, I like it.

Eoin Comerford

00:04:39.019 - 00:04:40.899

It is a little narrow. I give you that.

Colin True

00:04:42.419 - 00:05:04.190

All right, we're going to kick off. It's been a couple of weeks since we've done this. We're going to kick off the show today with our. With another outdoor industry year. Qu.

Okay, so I've got a couple of stories that are from the same year from old issues of snooze. And I'm going to read that I got to paraphrase them a little bit, because I might tip the hand if I read them verbatim. But the first one is.

And then I'll give you choices of years, Then you guys, guess what year this came out. All right, Gotcha.

Eoin Comerford

00:05:04.190 - 00:05:04.510

All right.

Colin True

00:05:04.510 - 00:05:33.810

Okay, the headline is, Colombia squeezes plastic. Columbia says they're putting recycling on the front burner.

They're now taking all of the 35,000 pounds of plastic they collect every month and compacting it down for manageable recycling. The move is taking a huge hunk of plastic out of the landfill and generating revenue.

They say they are also now recycling 12 tons of cardboard a month. Sorry, that's the end. And they're now recycling 12 tons of cardboard a month. That's the end of that little blurb.

Eoin Comerford

00:05:33.810 - 00:05:35.210

Okay, hold on.

Producer Dave

00:05:35.770 - 00:05:43.370

We can't recycle the plastic without turning a profit on recycling the plastic. Just recycle the plastic.

Colin True

00:05:43.930 - 00:05:45.930

Don't worry. We're making money. It's okay.

Eoin Comerford

00:05:47.450 - 00:05:49.930

That was when you could actually make money recycling plastic.

Producer Dave

00:05:50.730 - 00:05:54.070

Oh, see, you write that. That's the tell right there. Oh, wait a minute.

Eoin Comerford

00:05:54.070 - 00:05:57.510

That one is old as f. Okay, here we go.

Colin True

00:05:57.670 - 00:06:52.050

The next one is. That's a good point. The next one is a fabric story. The duty on unnamed boot brand. I don't want to tip who it is, shot up from 10 and a half to 37.5%.

Essentially, the reason for the increase is the US Customs decision that the primary intended use of the product is protection from the water, which requires a heavier tariff than the end use Gore and others prefer, namely hiking. Gore has already spent an excess of $100,000 in legal fees over the matter and hopes to reverse or lessen the severity of the ruling soon.

Where does that leave the boot manufacturers? Merrill honor orders written now and will develop strategies to minimize impact, but thinks that they may also have to raise prices by 5 to 10% soon.

Danner is apparently sitting high and dry with much of their production sitting stateside. Others are scrambling for ways to beat the system as the case looms closer in the courts.

Eoin Comerford

00:06:53.190 - 00:06:58.870

Well, again, see, the fact that they said that $100,000 worth of legal fees was noteworthy.

Producer Dave

00:06:58.870 - 00:07:00.390

I thought that was, like.

Eoin Comerford

00:07:02.470 - 00:07:02.990

Years ago.

Producer Dave

00:07:02.990 - 00:07:04.710

That's just for the consultation.

Colin True

00:07:06.630 - 00:07:13.990

Good point. Maybe we should have edited that one. The choices are 1991, 1999, 2019, or 2021.

Eoin Comerford

00:07:14.550 - 00:07:19.910

Are both of them the same year or same year? Same year. Okay, well, I'm definitely going 1991.

Producer Dave

00:07:20.660 - 00:07:22.740

All the way back to 91. Okay.

Eoin Comerford

00:07:22.740 - 00:07:23.220

Oh, yeah.

Producer Dave

00:07:23.220 - 00:07:37.700

All right. Well, you know what? Just to spread it out a little bit. I'll go 99. I can't believe that it's 2019 or 2021. I mean. But yeah, I'll go 99.

I'll go right before we party.

Colin True

00:07:39.380 - 00:07:43.940

The first story was July. The second story, September in the year 1991.

Producer Dave

00:07:44.100 - 00:07:49.740

Oh, it was. There we go. Back when $100,000 meant something to your lawyer.

Eoin Comerford

00:07:49.740 - 00:07:50.260

Meant something.

Producer Dave

00:07:50.660 - 00:07:53.120

Right. And when you Money recycling.

Eoin Comerford

00:07:54.000 - 00:07:54.640

Exactly.

Producer Dave

00:07:54.720 - 00:07:55.600

That's amazing.

Eoin Comerford

00:07:56.080 - 00:07:56.600

It did.

Colin True

00:07:56.600 - 00:08:09.280

They did. Definitely was a little old. And some of the brand like GT was the boot brand. Like who's gt? Like, you know, so like it wasn't.

I knew that would say that that was too old. But it is still amazing that these are very similar topics that we're talking about today in 2025.

Producer Dave

00:08:09.280 - 00:08:10.880

Heck yeah. Oh my gosh.

Colin True

00:08:11.200 - 00:09:09.200

Today's opening shots presented by the ultimate comfort of more than 30amazingly crafted and diverse styles, from Lem's footwear, including the Primal Zen head, to Lemz Shoes.com to learn more. A couple stories to kick things off today. A few different brands were in the news this week for their financial performance.

All of the following was reported on sgb.

First up, Claris, owner of Black Diamond, Rhino, Rack and Rocky Mounts, was called out by one of their investors for their struggles with profitability.

Next up, the chairman of Phoenix, parent company of Royal, Robbins and Fjallraven, described Q2 in his investor letter for Q2 Q2 as another struggling quarter. On the flip side, Decker has reported, Wait for it. That Hoka and Ugg both outperformed expectations in Q1 of this year.

It should be noted, though, that Teva and the recently released relaunched super shoe brand Anu posted a combined 19% decrease. Owen, just taking a look through this all coming out the same week. Any thoughts on these results? Any surprises from your analysis?

Eoin Comerford

00:09:10.480 - 00:09:55.290

I would say that the Claris investor commentary was interesting because it specifically pointed to a lack of scale and a previous lack of product focus as the issues that were driving their profitability challenges.

So to me, that indicates we're likely to see more divestitures of their subscale businesses like they just did with peeps, and also more SKU rationalization within the core Black diamond business. So I would say that's kind of what's probably coming there.

Actually, my favorite part of that article was where it pointed out that Insider Monkey said Claris was not on its list of the 30 most popular stocks among hedge funds. Like. Like, oh, ow. Like zing, you know?

Colin True

00:09:55.290 - 00:09:58.890

And another Insider Monkey, a position or is that, you know, I don't know.

Eoin Comerford

00:09:58.890 - 00:10:01.490

But it's like in other news, the sky is blue. I mean, come on.

Colin True

00:10:01.490 - 00:10:02.530

Yeah, right, right.

Producer Dave

00:10:04.530 - 00:10:07.570

Let me point this out to you. That's just fantastic.

Eoin Comerford

00:10:08.130 - 00:11:02.490

Oh, that was wild.

But, but, you know, but I would say though, in all seriousness, you know, we're big fans of Neil Fisk and the gang at Black diamond and so definitely, I know they're doing the right things and they'll turn that around. But yeah, it was pretty funny in terms of Phoenix. It was really. Sales were down about 3.1%.

I thought it was interesting that on the wholesale side they pointed to the fact that Fjallraven, due to market unpredictability, had purchased fewer goods for reorder, which resulted in a shortage of goods for direct orders.

And the company chairman said it seems that dealers are depending more on reorders than before due to the market's unpredictability and we must change accordingly and thereby slightly increase the inventory risk. Which, by the way, was one of my predictions for 2025.

Colin True

00:11:03.930 - 00:11:05.290

Do we like a bell to sound.

Eoin Comerford

00:11:12.310 - 00:11:48.890

Yeah, so, but, but you know, so, so that, that is kind of what I think we're going to see more of, especially as you go into the fall. Just right. Lower percentages, pre orders, more leaning on the brands to fill in.

On the positive note though, they did, they did say that they had less clearance inventory year over year and that was the main driver for lower digital sales. And as that and some restructuring actually meant that their bottom line actually held up pretty well despite the.

The top line issues then for Deckers. Okay. I mean, that was an absolute banger of a quarter. Right? Sales up 15.

Colin True

00:11:48.890 - 00:11:49.770

It just keeps going.

Eoin Comerford

00:11:50.250 - 00:12:28.670

Yeah. Hoka up 20. Ugg up 19. And that was an important.

Because investors had been a little bit spooked because things had slowed down with HOKA in a prior quarter. They thought, oh, it's the bloom off the rose here. But no, that was big. It turns out people love themselves some big old squishy shoes.

What I would say though, that it's actually not. It comes. Almost all of the growth in both come from international and mainly from distribution.

So increased distribution with international wholesale. The U.S. market, which they call choppy, was actually down 3%. Right.

Colin True

00:12:29.870 - 00:12:31.390

Oh, the tide is turning.

Eoin Comerford

00:12:31.630 - 00:13:10.330

Exactly. And then you look at USD to see another weak spot.

And they said it was really because people prefer the brick and mortar experience and that DTC is really more price driven online. DTC is more price driven. So that's interesting too. Just that the focus is really on brick and mortar wholesale expansion for those guys.

Finally, the other interesting thing there was they specifically pointed to the fact that they're going to go after a more differentiated assortment by segment. Both D2C versus wholesale and then even within wholesale. It seems like big box versus specialty versus run specialty.

Colin True

00:13:10.330 - 00:13:24.010

So line segmentation on the return track here.

Dave, does this make you feel pretty good about the points you made about hoka's new advertising campaign that they released a couple of weeks ago, the whole leaning back into the ultra of it all?

Producer Dave

00:13:24.010 - 00:14:14.620

Well, it certainly would point to some of that wholesale business getting back into those channels, finding that distribution in Europe where there's going to be stronger specialty. What I do note is interesting.

The brands that are doing well, even the afjal, Raven, it looks like it's more opportunity, operational issues maybe resulting in some of the downturn. I don't know if there's any softening in their demand. Obviously hoka, you know, same kind of thing.

But, you know, you look at Teva, you look at Anu, even Royal Robinson, these are brands that like, in the near term have really not done a great job of distinguishing themselves from just a brand storytelling differential. Right.

And so it's just this idea that without that kind of sharper distinction that it's just, it's harder to, harder to maintain, especially during the downturn times.

Eoin Comerford

00:14:15.100 - 00:14:15.460

Right.

Producer Dave

00:14:15.460 - 00:14:25.540

And so I think this is one of those points where maybe not focused on that real sharp differentiation can bite you when the, when demand turns.

Colin True

00:14:25.540 - 00:14:39.020

Do you think? I always like to think of like the room when things get pitched.

You think like 12 months ago, someone from HOKA like ran into a marketing meeting, like, guys, I just got back from the airport. Everyone's wearing our fucking shoes. We need, we need to do something a little more hardcore immediately.

Producer Dave

00:14:39.260 - 00:15:12.040

And I, you know, like, you take Teva, they have been wanting, wandering in the lifestyle kind of fashion since you worked with them. They just, they can't get out of that. It's like moths to a flame and they keep getting burned up by it.

But I know some of their recent strategy, like others, is to focus back on that core, start getting back onto that kind of, what's that central purpose, reason for being, if you will, reminding this next generation of why some of these legacy brands belong, why they, why they have authenticity to exist. I think it's really important.

Eoin Comerford

00:15:12.440 - 00:15:27.800

Or Colin, is the reason for that ad campaign because somebody came in and said, those fuckers over there at Rock Fight are just calling us a mall walking shoe. We are we're coming for them with this ad campaign.

Colin True

00:15:27.960 - 00:15:31.080

We'll put this into the win column for us, I think, is what we're saying. Right.

Producer Dave

00:15:31.400 - 00:15:32.280

Oh, my gosh.

Colin True

00:15:32.440 - 00:15:50.610

What's the over under for Anu when they. When they can it again? Are we putting it, like, is it like, how many more seasons?

Like, six more seasons, you know, like, it's like what's been out for a year and it's already in the lost column, you know, so when do they. And it was. It was Dave Powers regime who approved that thing. So it was the new CEO gonna be like, yeah, I didn't want this to be.

Producer Dave

00:15:50.610 - 00:15:56.410

I give it one. One bad quarter and it goes. It's the first one off the wall.

Eoin Comerford

00:15:56.410 - 00:16:26.470

I. I think we're gonna see another sort of scenario where they just. No, no, they spin it out to somebody else, like, has been spun out, right, Who. Who embraces the brand and says, hey, this is.

We've got something here, and gives it some love because it's just such a little redheaded stepchild within the, you know, this huge Hoka Ugg world that it's just. It's just. You can't. You can't get any oxygen in that, which needs to languish for a while first. You can't.

Producer Dave

00:16:26.470 - 00:16:38.680

You can't spin it off until it languishes. It's got a yellow around the edge a bit. No, there's plenty more right. Turns yellow a little bit. You hang it, you know, put it out in front.

Hang it out.

Colin True

00:16:38.760 - 00:16:55.960

Yeah, it is. I mean, you can argue that probably that's what they should have done the first time, because spin it up.

And as we've been noting lately, with the amount of shoes we're seeing in the marketplace, there's probably somebody out there who's interested in making their own shoes who would come calling if they said, hey, anyone want to buy this? You know, we got a brand. You want it?

Eoin Comerford

00:16:56.360 - 00:16:56.760

So.

Colin True

00:16:57.800 - 00:17:02.630

Last question on this one, Owen. Are there any dots here to connect to inform us what's happening in the industry in general?

Eoin Comerford

00:17:03.830 - 00:17:21.350

The US Market is really tough right now, even for hot brands like Hoka. It is tough, and it is super tough for. For online versus brick and mortar. So, you know, I think brick and mortar is relatively resilient.

But, yeah, if you're. If you're online in the U.S. woof.

Colin True

00:17:22.550 - 00:17:25.990

And Dave, to your point, that's why you can't just, like, hang out in the middle of the road.

Producer Dave

00:17:26.550 - 00:17:30.550

No, no, that's right. Middle of the road. Brands that get run over you gotta pick a lane.

Colin True

00:17:30.550 - 00:17:31.990

Stand for Squish like grape.

Producer Dave

00:17:32.310 - 00:17:34.470

Squish like grape, yes.

Colin True

00:17:35.270 - 00:18:06.670

All right, a couple more stories.

We were in the news the last couple of weeks on the snow sports front, providing potentially a refreshing dose of hope for the skiing world after a season that was dominated by the actions of Vail Resorts. First was the news that the town of Nederland is buying Eldora, their local resort and a go to spot for many in the Front Range.

And then earlier this week, Utah's Solitude announced a new plan with the sspu, which is the Solitude Ski Patrol Union. Quick tip there. You never want P and U next to each other in your acronym. Just, that's for free.

Producer Dave

00:18:07.950 - 00:18:15.630

Colin, I do want to point out too, the SS at the front of that. That's not very advisable either. I mean, that's really kind of missing on two counts.

Colin True

00:18:16.750 - 00:18:22.830

Straight out of the third grader playbook. What's the name of your boat, Billy? Oh, it's the sspu.

Producer Dave

00:18:24.270 - 00:18:29.170

Yes, the Stinky Gestapo we're coming for. Oh, my gosh.

Colin True

00:18:30.210 - 00:18:52.890

Oh, that's amazing. All right. The SSPU is the first ski patrol to unionize under Altera, who's the owner of Solitude.

The deal received a 100% approval from its bargaining unit.

We obviously don't talk about snow sports very much here in the rock fight, but it's a critical activity, both from, you know, a gear and apparel point of view and as an activity that many enthusiasts participate in as well, calling it's outdoor entry point when newcomers to the outdoors. What's that?

Producer Dave

00:18:52.890 - 00:18:54.850

I said it's outdoor whether you like it or not.

Colin True

00:18:55.600 - 00:19:08.480

No, it's not.

Oh, and between climate change and the corporations that are often driving what happens in snow sports, do you see positive news like these two stories as outliers or possibly the tide turning for the category?

Eoin Comerford

00:19:08.480 - 00:19:59.920

I mean, both, both news stories are really very welcomed, but I see them more as outliers. You know, just the. The industry.

As long as it's basically this duopoly, right, that's built on expensive season passes that create a tragedy for the commons in terms of overuse resorts during peak parts of the season, we're not going to see changes, right? And we need to see way more investment to support those volumes so you don't have, you know, lift lines that are snaking around the parking lot.

And we also need just a restructuring of this whole season pass thing, which is going to somehow somewhat discourages overcrowding, but that also encourages accessibility to people who can't fork over you know, $1,200 for a season pass. So yeah, structurally there's just too many problems.

Producer Dave

00:20:01.120 - 00:20:17.920

Do those interesting about that pass too.

Does it also trying to encourage interstate travel or cross border travel as opposed to encouraging the local population to use their local facilities. Does that add to the crowding?

Eoin Comerford

00:20:18.160 - 00:20:56.360

I think it does.

And that's one of the strategies of these guys has been to go out and buy local ski hills like they like Vale bought my local ski hill here, Mount Brighton, which is basically an old, I think it's an old converted trash heap.

But they bought that so you could have that local use during the season, just as for warmups, et cetera, but then also tie you into then when you do go for your big ski trip. Ski people here might go for two big trips a year and they'll go out west typically that you would then go to a Vail resort.

So yeah, they're just trying to lock you in as much as possible.

Producer Dave

00:20:56.600 - 00:21:01.960

Right. And I imagine your streets are filled with Coloradans during the winter flocking to your mountain.

Eoin Comerford

00:21:03.960 - 00:21:05.720

Absolutely. Oh yes, yes.

Producer Dave

00:21:05.720 - 00:21:06.680

Good, good. I love that.

Colin True

00:21:06.680 - 00:21:10.440

Have you skied Mount have you skied Brighton? Yeah, up in. Just up by solitude.

Eoin Comerford

00:21:10.440 - 00:21:12.600

No, no, no, no. Michigan.

Producer Dave

00:21:13.240 - 00:21:16.520

Michigan, that's right. Go. Love it.

Eoin Comerford

00:21:16.680 - 00:21:20.120

300Ft of vertical. That's right.

Colin True

00:21:20.680 - 00:21:21.320

Can you.

Eoin Comerford

00:21:23.780 - 00:21:24.100

Oh.

Colin True

00:21:24.500 - 00:21:56.910

All right, let's, let's move into the Lightning round. All right, so I'm going to do a little, a little tweak to the format.

I'm going to throw a headline and a summary at you guys and let's get a real quick reaction from the crowd, see who chimes in on each one. So the first up on the Lightning round Dicks is to open a new House of sport.

Dicks announced they'll be opening a new House of Sport in Glendale, California on October 7th. As we're recording this, there are still three Dick's Public Lands locations operating per their website.

What's the over under on how long those three will last?

Eoin Comerford

00:21:57.230 - 00:22:10.190

I think they're going to stick around for a little while purely to continue acting as the on ramp for premium outdoor brands to enter Dick's. As soon as House of Sports takes on that mantle or becomes that on ramp, I think they're gone.

Producer Dave

00:22:10.190 - 00:22:20.330

I'm just going to say I think it's going to be sooner rather than later that they will be bundled together as a acquisition by a resource extraction company and sold by the Trump administration.

Colin True

00:22:21.290 - 00:22:40.010

Next up, dads are leading the back to school charge.

According to a new survey, 70% of US consumers started their back to school shopping earlier this year with started early this year with dads leading the charge. Apparently 66% of men in the survey are starting their back to school shopping early. Thoughts on what dads are prioritizing for back to school?

Eoin Comerford

00:22:40.250 - 00:22:57.460

Sounds like complete bullshit to me. I'm sorry. A, how many dads are leading back to school shopping in any household that you've heard of?

And B, when was the last time that men were so super planful that they were doing shit months early? I mean, come on, I just saw.

Producer Dave

00:22:57.460 - 00:23:07.460

That there's going to be a run on gray New Balance sneakers or something like, oh my gosh, they're just flying out the door. Why is this, oh, dad's leading the back to school charge? Of course.

Eoin Comerford

00:23:08.020 - 00:23:08.740

Absolutely.

Colin True

00:23:09.390 - 00:23:40.190

The correct answer is there's gonna be a lot of Ozzy Osbourne T shirts sold for every kid in America in 2025. All right, last story in the lightning round. Ortholite sold for $770 million.

British multinational company Coats has purchased insoul maker Ortholite for a reported $770 million. Ortholite supplies over 500 million pairs of insoles to over 500 brand partners and has 310 co branding agreements.

Dave, based on those numbers, is Ortholite the greatest ingredient brand of all time?

Producer Dave

00:23:40.510 - 00:23:50.790

Right. It does seem like that. I'd have to say from straight and green, if you remove the medical side of gore.

Yeah, like, oh my gosh, those are huge numbers.

Colin True

00:23:50.790 - 00:23:51.989

What are they going to say?

Eoin Comerford

00:23:51.989 - 00:24:20.960

There's money in them, Their souls, I mean, wouchers. So the interesting thing is that the sales price was driven by Ortholite's 26% EBITDA margin. That is. Ooh, that is some serious, serious margin.

You know, most brands, if you get to 10%, you're like high fiving. You know, there's cartwheels. Oh yeah. So 26% is amazing. It also would indicate that Ortholite chargers brands about 50 cents per insole.

So now you know.

Colin True

00:24:21.120 - 00:24:33.660

Yeah, the next time I hear someone refer to the outdoor industry as like a core type of industry around like this niche activities and like 500 million pairs of insoles from one maker. That is not including the ones that they don't make. So that's a lot of stuff.

Producer Dave

00:24:34.140 - 00:24:38.140

Let's just 50 cents an insole. And what are those retail for?

Colin True

00:24:40.380 - 00:24:42.780

30 bucks minimum. 50 bucks? I don't even know.

Eoin Comerford

00:24:42.940 - 00:24:52.220

But if their EBITDA is 26%, so that means that the actual insole itself probably costs them less than 10 cents. Oh man.

Colin True

00:24:53.580 - 00:24:57.900

Basically, we all made bad decisions, guys. We should have been trying to get that insole business a long time ago.

Producer Dave

00:24:58.060 - 00:25:01.100

That's right. We're like, no, not insoles. That's not sexy enough.

Colin True

00:25:01.180 - 00:25:01.660

Boring.

Eoin Comerford

00:25:02.620 - 00:25:10.840

That's right. See, that's how, how soul could could sponsor the bathrooms at every outdoor retailer. That's they had you.

Colin True

00:25:11.640 - 00:25:16.160

Yeah, I mean like, you know, Soul like urinal cakes. Did I pee on in Salt Lake.

Eoin Comerford

00:25:16.160 - 00:25:17.520

City over the years or.

Producer Dave

00:25:17.520 - 00:25:19.720

Or like bad puns.

Colin True

00:25:20.119 - 00:26:45.210

All right, today's lightning round on the rock fight is brought to you by Lem Shoes. Are you looking for shoes that offer both long lasting durability and all day comfort? Look no further than Lem's.

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All right, our main topic today is presented by Oboz, the pride of Bozeman, Montana, who is also the cupid to the outdoor world. And we're talking about map pricing minimally or minimal minimum advertised pricing? Whichever one pick an M. Yes.

Last week, per sgb, there was an article about a class action lawsuit that is charging the ata, which is the archery trade association, with conspiring with distributors and retailers such as Dick's, Bass Pro and Cabela's to artificially inflate the pricing of gear and apparel through the implementation of minimum advertised price, AKA MAP policies.

If you're wondering why we're talking about something coming out of the hunt and fish side of the outdoor world, it's because map is a key functionality to outdoor retail. How this plays out could have ramifications to the brands and retailers that we talk about the most here on the show.

Owen, before we get into the details, can you just walk us through what MAP pricing is and how it's intended to function?

Eoin Comerford

00:26:45.450 - 00:27:59.780

The first thing is it is minimum advertised price. There are very specific laws around this area. So a dealer, sorry, a brand can't tell a retailer how much they can sell something for. Right.

That would be price fixing and so you can't do that. They can tell you how much you can advertise it for though, as part of their brand policy.

Because advertising impacts their brand and therefore they are allowed to control their brand and thus the advertised price of their product. That's the first thing. The second thing is it has to be unilateral.

So in other words, the brand can state, this is my policy, but it can't be discussed or negotiated. Right.

It has to be unilateral because again, if there's a conversation about it either between the brand and the retailer or between retailers or between brands or what have you, that's collusion, which is also highly, highly illegal. So MAP policies in and of themselves are fine.

It's when, it's when people kind of get around them and do stupid stuff like talk about them as an industry organization, that's when things go awry, which is kind of the case here. I mean, it's like the first rule of MAP policy. Don't talk about MAP policy.

Colin True

00:28:00.420 - 00:28:13.110

Well, so how does it go? So if you're, you're back in your days at Moose Jaw and you're dealing with one of your vendors, how does MAP enter those conversations?

So give a real world application for how you would have applied MAP back in your retailer days.

Eoin Comerford

00:28:13.740 - 00:29:49.690

Sure. So pretty much every brand worth it salt had a MAP policy and it's just a published policy. And I mean it's a good thing for the industry, right.

Because it does put some sort of pricing out there. And really what it ensures is that, it ensures that it's a relatively level playing field.

And high value retailers, like an independent specialty store where they're adding value by introducing people to the brand and they've got all the stuff and the inventory and display and you know, fitting you with the shoes and all those things. Those high value folks, you know, can, can be sort of on the same level as an Amazon or a big box player that's just, you know, hawk and stuff.

So, so I think it's important from that perspective. But, but basically, you know, we would have all these MAP policies and I mean, wow, every single one of them was different. Right.

We sold over 600 brands. Right.

So we had, had 600 different map policies and they, you know, it's different, you know, timing and different, you know, some of them were, you could discount, you couldn't discount. There's certain products you can do, there's certain dates you can do it, there's the amount, like it's, it's.

So it was like a, we had a map coordinator and like it was almost a full time job to basically make sure that what we were doing wasn't good.

You know, wasn't going to, you know, come a cropper of these various things, you know, and we would, we would plan our big promotion and then we would make sure that, you know, that we were above abiding by it. But you know, again, it couldn't be a conversation.

You just had to take the policy, see what it is and then see how would be, how it would be impacted.

Producer Dave

00:29:49.930 - 00:29:57.130

So what would be the ramifications if you ran afoul of someone's MAP policy? Like what, how did that play out?

Eoin Comerford

00:29:57.770 - 00:31:08.720

So the key thing again, if done properly in a unilateral way, is there should be a notice, automatic notice. So it shouldn't be up to you, like, oh, you know, we're going to call out this retailer or that retailer, but now we'll let this one slide.

No, no, be automatic.

And so best practices is that you have, there are services which are map watcher services which will scan the Internet, et cetera, find people that are not compliant and then automatically notify them. Right. It doesn't go through the sales rep or the national sales manager just automatically, boom, you get a notice.

And then again, best practice is that that notice kicks off a very defined and non negotiated again process.

So it's like, typically it's like a three strikes type of approach where you get, one is a warning, two is the first level infraction where maybe you're cut off from reorders for a month or two months and three might be you're suspended as a dealer for six months and four might be we're never going to let you back. Right. But the key thing again is it's unilateral. Everybody follows the same policy and there's no conversation or negotiation.

Producer Dave

00:31:08.960 - 00:31:14.500

Have you heard of stories of retailers being canceled, if you will?

Eoin Comerford

00:31:15.140 - 00:31:42.580

Oh, absolutely, yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah.

And you know, there are definitely, what I would say is that there, there were, there were brands that got the reputation for, for that and retailers then treated them accordingly. Like, like Patagonia is a great example. Patagonia, they did not f around with their MAP policy.

And it was just like, here's the policy, here's what it is. You don't, you don't want to play along, you're out. And they did, they deleted some dealers.

Colin True

00:31:42.660 - 00:32:00.820

So how did the rise of D2C through like the 2010s complicate this? Because now you have brands competing directly with their wholesale partners they can discount throughout the whole calendar as they see fit.

There must have been some sort of like, you know, complication with that on your end as a retailer, well, 100%.

Eoin Comerford

00:32:02.100 - 00:34:15.130

That level of hypocrisy has not been welcomed by the industry at all. You know, when I joined the industry in 2008, I would say, you know, most brands had pretty solid map policies that were relatively well followed.

It was really, it was, it was the advent of brand D2C that really kind of messed all that up. And interestingly, you know, I mean, yeah, there are brands that definitely do break their own map policy nowadays.

What, what they, what they'll do is they'll, they'll decide to break the policy and then they'll, you know, like, they'll say, oh, you know, shit, sales are really bad right now. And so what we're going to do is we're going to, we need to do promotion on our D2C site.

So they'll, they'll then, you know, announce a change to their map policy, like with zero notice to anybody else for the next 72 hours the day that they, or in some cases the day after they launched the promo on their own site. So, yes, absolutely.

But because ultimately what ended up happening was the D2C sites, yeah, they started to break their own app policies and then there was like, no, no, you've got to stay signed in line, stay in line.

But then the D2C people were like, well, hey, if you want to grow this business and to compete, you know, we need to be able, we actually need you to relax the map policy for us. The D2C which then create, which then sort of like, you know, relaxed it for everybody.

And that really is what led to a lot of the kind of the price issues that exist today within our industry and the discounting.

Because, you know, and what I would say is a lot of experience at map pods to the point where, you know, I became somewhat of an expert on the subject. But yeah, there are definitely best practices out there.

You know, to me, for example, if a brand asks me like, you know, what, what's the best, what's the best practice in terms of map policy? First of all, again, I would tell them it is unilateral.

Like, I've seen brands that have, that have put it in their, like, tried to put it in their dealer agreement. I'm like, are you, are you, are you fucking kidding me? Right? You want a dealer to sign this agreement that includes a map policy? Are you insane?

Right? So that's the first thing is get it out of there. It's a unilateral policy.

Colin True

00:34:15.130 - 00:34:19.810

It's just stating why is that insane. Like what? Just, you know, because you can't connecting.

Eoin Comerford

00:34:19.810 - 00:34:30.010

Those dots because again, that would be collusion. If they're agreeing to a map policy. You can't agree to a map policy. It's a unilateral policy. Right.

Producer Dave

00:34:30.010 - 00:34:32.050

Calling the first rule of map policy.

Eoin Comerford

00:34:32.770 - 00:34:37.090

Don't talk about map policy. That's right. That's right. The second thing is.

Colin True

00:34:39.299 - 00:34:39.579

A lot of.

Eoin Comerford

00:34:39.579 - 00:35:14.040

Map policies, especially back in the day, used to be, oh, you had X number of promo days per month or per season. So you can be on sale for 10 days this season at up to 25% off, whatever.

But it was up to the retailer's prerogative to decide what those days were that just led to basically, then somebody was always on sale. Right. In that scenario. A. Right.

So as a consumer, you're like, okay, it's just like, I'm going to go online and who's on sale with this brand this week? That's where I'm going to. That's where my business is going to go.

Colin True

00:35:14.040 - 00:35:14.600

Right, right.

Eoin Comerford

00:35:15.000 - 00:35:31.600

That's the first thing. The second thing is it became a map tracking nightmare. Right. It's like, okay, well, okay, such and such retailers on sale this week, Are they on?

Do they have days left this season? Do they not have days? How many Is somebody counting the days? You know, it's, it's just make it easy on yourself.

Colin True

00:35:31.600 - 00:35:33.120

This is our cause. Right, right.

Eoin Comerford

00:35:33.120 - 00:35:48.780

So, so, so the best practice is one, have some very specific windows map holidays, you know, they're called within the calendar, which almost always magically align to the REI sales events. Right. Funny how that works.

Colin True

00:35:48.780 - 00:35:49.380

So weird.

Eoin Comerford

00:35:49.780 - 00:36:18.800

So weird. So those are the, those are the dates that you can be on sale. And oh, by the way, you should limit the amount that it can be discounted. Right.

So it's like, so that it can be advertised, not actually discounted, but that you can advertise on the discounted. In my mind, as a brand, it should never be more than 25%. Right. If you want to be a premium brand, having your brand at 28, 30% off. No. In season. No.

That, that's no good at all.

Colin True

00:36:19.280 - 00:36:26.000

All right, so before we get into kind of what spurred this conversation, number one, if you had a map coordinator, I think you guys missed the boat that should have been called the Navigator.

Eoin Comerford

00:36:26.160 - 00:36:27.840

Okay, Right. Fair. Fair.

Colin True

00:36:27.840 - 00:36:34.720

Thank you.

And all the things it could have been nautical terms for, like it's going to run a ground, you know, we're going to, you know, I don't know, there's all sorts of Places you could.

Producer Dave

00:36:34.720 - 00:36:37.560

Take that Darby Dragons.

Colin True

00:36:39.080 - 00:36:50.120

But so, okay, so this specific case, this whole thing on the, you know, the ata, what is being alleged here and how, you know, what are the kind of ways this could play out?

Eoin Comerford

00:36:51.160 - 00:38:38.720

So I think the key thing here is I don't think they're going after MAP policy as a concept. What they're going after is the whole collusion area aspect.

They're saying that the ata, this industry association, encouraged or colluded with its members to set price. That is definitely illegal.

Now what I will tell you is that this is also a classic, you know, lawyer money, you know, trying to grab some of that sweet, sweet class action money. Right? I mean, that's what this is. I mean, oh my gosh, somebody overpaid for their bow by $50.

They'll, they'll, you know, you know, it's, it's an incredible damage to that, that one poor individual bullshit, right? This is some lawyer saw something or somehow. So maybe somebody got pissed off.

But like what, what, what can happen in these scenarios is, you know, some, some, you know, somebody, a brand or retailer, somebody is like, ah, show these fuckers and actually tells somebody, you know, shows them an email or whatever that shouldn't, should never have been in an email. And now, you know, they have a smoking gun. And yeah, the hits the fan. So.

But yeah, it's, it's, it's unfortunate because it, you just don't want to do that. And it's a cautionary tale for, I mean there's lots of industries that use MAP policies, obviously outdoor industry, electronics, other places.

But yeah, you need to have really tight policies. Train your people on what MAP policy means, what you can and cannot do, what you can and cannot say.

You know, that was key training for all merchants at Moose Jaw and at Walmart is, you know, you really need to know what you're doing here because you don't want to run afoul of this stuff because it's serious. This is serious, serious stuff.

Colin True

00:38:39.120 - 00:39:02.340

Well, it's, it's maybe like the, the last guard rail. I mean you think about if, if the.

I was talking to a retailer about this over the last couple days and they said oh yeah, if we didn't have MAP pricing like, you know, say buh. By independence, right?

Because if to everything we just talked about with the DTC business, if you didn't have to honor that, these kind of, you know, if brands could just do what they wanted, Jesus, what would happen? I mean it just like it would, it would be, it would be the model as we know it would be over.

Eoin Comerford

00:39:02.340 - 00:39:43.240

It would. But I would say though that the pendulum is swinging a little bit back to brick and mortar.

I mean, you go back to the conversation around Hoka or even Fjallraven, a lot of it was, hey, our brick and mortar, our wholesale business is really strong. D2C is a bit of a dumpster fire because it's mainly online and it's mainly price based. Right. So they see it.

So I think most brands now have sort of said, okay, whoa, hold on a second, dtc, you're the problem, not the solution here when it comes to this stuff. So we're going to take a back and. Yeah, and map policies properly implemented are a key bullet in the gun there, Colin.

Producer Dave

00:39:43.400 - 00:39:56.040

The charge they're making, you know, is, you know, artificially inflating the pricing of gear and apparel. It seems like a really rough time to make that claim when prices are just skyrocketing everywhere. And I just don't.

Colin True

00:39:56.280 - 00:39:57.640

Is this a tariff workaround?

Producer Dave

00:39:57.640 - 00:40:04.930

Yeah, right. I'm not sure it's map policies that are causing it. It's just, it's a rough time to claim that's what's causing it.

Eoin Comerford

00:40:05.250 - 00:40:12.770

Well, there we go. We're going to see a truth social on here saying that it's not inflation because of tariffs, it's those MAP policies.

Colin True

00:40:13.010 - 00:40:15.570

Map prices, they're keeping the prices high.

Producer Dave

00:40:16.050 - 00:40:18.210

None of those people know what a map is.

Colin True

00:40:18.930 - 00:40:56.510

Well, if anybody listening to this has, I'd love to hear just anecdotally, experience with map as a retailer, as a brand, kind of to Owen's point, obviously he's speaking from experience. This isn't just conjecture. This is sitting in the se in dealing with all of it. Love to hear from what you have to say as well.

Send your feedback to myrockfightmail.com and today's episode of the Rock Fight presented by Oboz. Who wants to share their love of hiking.

And we want to help them by uncovering all the different ways that we love to take the long walk, including the following number. One hiking plus one campfire and one beer equals one instant philosopher. I'm looking at Dave right now. He's definitely. He fits that mold.

Eoin Comerford

00:40:56.670 - 00:40:58.790

Only one beer, that's all you need.

Colin True

00:40:58.790 - 00:40:59.550

It gets you going.

Producer Dave

00:40:59.630 - 00:41:06.390

I removed the numbers. I took the number out of the one Instant philosopher. And to read, to read instant philosopher.

Colin True

00:41:06.390 - 00:41:11.470

There's, there's, well, there's no map pricing with this. You can, you know, you can have as many as you want.

Producer Dave

00:41:12.030 - 00:41:15.390

I feel like it was reduced a little bit. Now we have a discount philosopher.

Eoin Comerford

00:41:15.870 - 00:41:16.270

But.

Colin True

00:41:17.070 - 00:41:20.870

Well, the more you add to the philosopher, the better the philosophy gets, the.

Producer Dave

00:41:20.870 - 00:41:22.430

Weaker that sauce gets, right?

Colin True

00:41:22.430 - 00:41:38.600

Notice number two, the shade from a tree is better than the shade you get from that guy Carl at your office. So get out there and go hiking. Number three, hiking is a guilt free excuse to ghost everyone. Just get out there, go hiking. Don't talk to anybody.

We had a cell phone range. No one will even know.

Producer Dave

00:41:38.600 - 00:41:43.160

I thought you were going to say it's a guilt free excuse to carb load, which is also kind of fun.

Colin True

00:41:43.240 - 00:42:17.220

Also, hiking means the obo's Catabatic lt.

The Catabatic has quickly become an obo's favorite and the LT takes the Catabata collection to a whole new level with a lighter package and additional environmentally friendly materials. From fast packing to day hiking, the Katabatic LT is your new shoe of choice.

And this hiking appreciation moment is brought to you by oboz of Bozeman, Montana, certified B Corp, 6 million tree planter and inhabitant of the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. Don't hug those bison. Oboz is the maker of premium quality footwear for the trail and the cupid to the the outdoor world. Oboz love hiking.

Chris DeMakes

00:42:18.740 - 00:42:20.820

It's time for our party shot.

Colin True

00:42:22.500 - 00:43:12.960

All right, parting shot time. It's been a tough week for Gen X guys.

So this week, on Wednesday's episode, before that episode even had a chance to come out, on that parting shot for that episode, I talked about Malcolm Jamal Warner. And then before that episode even came out, we lost Ozzie. And then the day before we recorded this episode, we lost Hulk Hogan.

And all three played an instrumental role in my youth. Like I said on Wednesday, Theo and the Cosby show was a legend.

I knew some Sabbath growing up, but the no more tears era of Ozzy was when I really started to appreciate him in that spot. And then Hulk Hogan's last heel turn on the political spectrum was regrettable.

But Rocky iii, where he played Thunderlips, that might be the movie that defines my childhood. So tough beat in the old guy entertainment club this week. I guess my parting shot is for life and time today. That's kind of all I got.

I was kind of struggling on this one. This just sucks.

Eoin Comerford

00:43:13.040 - 00:43:13.870

Oh, God.

Producer Dave

00:43:14.820 - 00:43:38.380

I'm going to say, though, I'm going to bring it back, that we should honor their sacrifice because that is what may have brought us a resurgence of south park this week in terms of them finding cultural relevancy and bringing that sharpness back to bear that made them A Gen X favorite in the first place. So you lose a few.

Colin True

00:43:38.380 - 00:43:41.040

There are some who are not afraid. That's true. Right?

Producer Dave

00:43:41.040 - 00:43:43.040

You lose a few, you gain a few.

Colin True

00:43:43.920 - 00:43:55.160

You know, obviously the, the.

That episode that aired this week, everyone's talking about the Trump stuff, but they just closed a massive partnership with Paramount and they just were shitting on Paramount.

Producer Dave

00:43:55.160 - 00:43:57.000

Billion and a half dollars like the.

Colin True

00:43:57.000 - 00:44:03.840

Day after, like a billion dollar contract and. Okay, thank you. I'm going to shit all over you now that those guys are great.

Producer Dave

00:44:04.320 - 00:44:06.080

Isn't that something? Oh, my.

Colin True

00:44:06.080 - 00:44:06.910

27 years later.

Eoin Comerford

00:44:07.060 - 00:44:07.300

Later.

Producer Dave

00:44:07.460 - 00:44:13.220

27 years later. You know, I actually got to. To see the original VHS Christmas.

Colin True

00:44:13.940 - 00:44:14.980

The spirit of Christmas.

Producer Dave

00:44:15.060 - 00:44:26.220

Spirit of Christmas. That's right. Those were floating around Southern California.

And who would have thought that someday that VHS tape which just cracked us all up would be worth a billion and a half dollars?

Eoin Comerford

00:44:26.220 - 00:44:36.430

That's just speaking. Speaking of things floating around. Never. Never again into south park again. Maybe it's my aversion to poop jokes, but. Yeah, no, it just was not.

Producer Dave

00:44:38.260 - 00:44:39.860

See, you're missing Mr. Hankey.

Eoin Comerford

00:44:40.180 - 00:44:40.900

That's right.

Colin True

00:44:41.300 - 00:44:56.900

I think it probably worth watching the one that came out the other day though, at least some clips of it because, man, they just roast the shit out of Trump and it's phenomenal and just the most and in the truly aggressive way, like you're going to threaten to sue us and we're trying to make you say that. It's great.

Eoin Comerford

00:44:57.700 - 00:44:58.580

I'll check it out.

Colin True

00:45:00.580 - 00:45:14.620

All right, guys, that's the show for today. The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight LLC for Owen Comerford and producer Dave, who produced this episode. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening.

Oh, I forgot to mention Sarah Gensert, our art director. Sarah Genser, as always. That's Sarah.

Eoin Comerford

00:45:14.940 - 00:45:16.340

That's Sarah, exactly.

Colin True

00:45:16.340 - 00:45:26.180

He's back to take us out. Guys, the day after this comes out, I'll see Chris to makes and less than Jake here in San Diego. I'm very excited.

So, yes, I'm one day away by the time this episode debuts.

Eoin Comerford

00:45:26.180 - 00:45:31.420

Is he going to perform the Rock Fight live at his show? Does he know the cultural significance that he has?

Colin True

00:45:31.740 - 00:45:41.990

I should buy you it email and be like, hey, you know the song you wrote? That's a big. It's a big deal. Now I mentioned you on every episode. That's got to be helping your own SEO.

Eoin Comerford

00:45:44.470 - 00:45:45.670

Or, or, or not.

Colin True

00:45:46.150 - 00:45:55.030

Or maybe not. Yeah, it's like, God, what is this shitty podcast it is constantly talking about? Like, anyway, here's the Rock Fight fight song.

We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.

Chris DeMakes

00:45:59.080 - 00:46:58.070

Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight? Welcome to the Rock fight? Where we speak our truth? Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree?

We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews? Ideas that aim for the head? This is where we speak our truth? This is where we speak our truth? Rock fly, Rock flight? Rock flight?

Welcome to the rock flight? Rock flight, Rock flight? Welcome to the Rock flight? Rock flight? Rock flight? Rock flight? Rock flight, Rock flight? Welcome to the Rock flight?

Rock flight Rapide range.