The Self-Inflicted Wound Hall Of Fame! Plus: Takeaways From REI's Annual Member Meeting
- colin7931
- 13 minutes ago
- 43 min read
Welcome to Monday's on The Rock Fight your home for the best outdoor industry discourse! There are two big topics on the docket today.
First! After checking in on the recently released Outdoor Retailer floor plan (04:59), Colin, Producer Dave, and Outdoor Industry Insider Eoin Comerford go through the key takeaways from the annual REI members meeting that went down last week.
Here are the topics they hit along with time codes if you want to skip around:
Takeaways from the earnings report including a look at revenue, merchandise/inventory, and payroll. (10:28)
The impact and go forward options after REI's board failed to get three seats filled thanks to efforts by REI's union. (21:10)
What's the brand vibe? Taking a look at the erosion of of goodwill when it comes to REI and how does all of this information impact the broader outdoor industry. (24:19)
Second! Colin, Producer Dave, and Eoin present the inaugural inductees into the Self-Inflicted Wound Hall Of Fame. The history of the outdoor industry is loaded with numerous brand boners, some of which make you stop and ponder, "how did that happen?!"
Today we present three hall of fame worthy examples and suggest how the outdoor industry can avoid such blunders in the future. (30:13)
The 2025 Self-Inflicted Wound Inductees are:
Lulu's See Thru's. Presented by Colin True. (35:45)
Backcountry Sues Everyone. Presented by Eoin Comerford. (40:04)
The Higg Index Debacle. Presented by Producer Dave. (45:02)
Lastly, for The Parting Shot, Eoin wants REI to stop gaslighting us and it's a totally fair request. (53:33)
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Episode Transcript:
Colin True
00:00:00.240 - 00:00:02.040
You're listening to Rock Fight Radio.
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00:00:02.040 - 00:00:59.820
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Colin True
00:00:59.820 - 00:02:23.010
Got DJCT right here with you and that was Bold Sock. The first big hit we ever had from Fitz.
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It will be sure to put a smile on your toes. And now back to the show. Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True and today we're digging into some outdoor industry current events and also taking a look at some missteps of the past.
But before we get to that, come back to the Rock Fight this Wednesday where I'll be joined by Shawnté Salabert to run through some outdoor adventure headlines. And hey, are you heading to Switchback in June?
If so, be sure to put the Rock Fight live on your agenda for Tuesday, June 17th at 5 o' clock in the trailheads Theater. I'll be there. Producer Dave will be there. Owen will be there. Shantae will be there.
If Switchback is going to be the event of the summer, then this will be the event at the event. Don't miss it. And lastly, are you following the Rock Fight on your favorite podcast app? And if not, what the hell man?
Hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode of the self proclaimed best podcast for the outdoor industry and the outdoor community. If you don't want to do it because I asked you to, click follow for producer Dave. It could just save his life. Stick around. We'll be right back.
Chris DeMakes
00:02:23.250 - 00:02:27.090
Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Colin True
00:02:30.450 - 00:03:51.930
All right, folks, time to set the record straight. A few weeks back, listeners heard me rant on about a new sandal from Lem's shoes.
That sandal, the new Switchback sandal, was a classic single strap, single post style that I, without much knowledge, accused of being just like someone else. What I wasn't informed on was Lem's unique take on making footwear.
And let's just say a few rocks were thrown back at me, and rightly so, because Lem's has really elevated the design of minimalist natural movement footwear, anatomically correct, zero drop comfort, and lightweight outdoor performance.
And the Switchback, it's crafted from a single piece of material and features a unique single strap design with one buckle for super ease of use, added comfort, and getting it on outside. You can go get yourself a pair right now@lemshoes.com where you'll also find that Lems is running a 20% off sale from now until May 11th.
Oh, and hey, retailers, did you know that Lemz is looking for wholesale partners? Hit them up@supportemmsshoes.com to add a little flavor to your shoe wall.
And be sure to stop by and say hi to the Lem's team at their booth at Switchback in Nashville this June.
Check out the new Switchback sandal and all of Lem's shoes by heading over to lemshoes.com all right, it's Monday, which means I'm here with producer Dave, who is back after a week away, as well as outdoor industry insider, consiglierity of the rock fight, and new nickname alert newly minted boat guy Owen Comerford's here.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:03:52.010 - 00:03:55.450
Oh, wow. You just called me Captain Comerford then.
Colin True
00:03:55.530 - 00:03:57.370
Okay, there you go. We'll change it.
Producer Dave
00:03:58.630 - 00:04:00.550
I think Captain works really well, actually.
Colin True
00:04:00.870 - 00:04:05.270
Can the Consiglieri be a captain in the old Mafioso scene? I don't know.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:04:05.270 - 00:04:07.670
I don't know if they have captains. I'm pretty sure the capo.
Colin True
00:04:07.670 - 00:04:08.950
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Producer Dave
00:04:09.110 - 00:04:10.230
Capo. Yeah.
Colin True
00:04:11.430 - 00:04:16.070
What if you're a capo and your own consigliere? I only listen to myself and you're dead.
Producer Dave
00:04:19.270 - 00:04:21.110
That got dark very fast, Colin.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:04:21.190 - 00:04:21.830
Yeah. Really?
Colin True
00:04:22.070 - 00:04:26.310
Well, you know, he got about. What do you think he's putting in the lake? What is he doing on the boat? Which is really what we need.
Producer Dave
00:04:26.310 - 00:04:30.820
Colin, the consigliere is a civilian. They're not. They're not involved in that.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:04:30.820 - 00:04:31.100
Right.
Producer Dave
00:04:31.100 - 00:04:33.220
They're outside of all of that, just.
Colin True
00:04:33.220 - 00:04:36.100
Giving good advice, that's all they're doing. They're not getting their hands dirty.
Producer Dave
00:04:36.100 - 00:04:36.620
That's right.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:04:36.620 - 00:04:47.900
I've already mapped out the really deep, you know, parts of the lake. So, you know, how deep is your lake? That's, it's not, it's not deep. I think at its deepest point is probably like 80ft.
Colin True
00:04:48.140 - 00:04:50.860
That's not the ideal spot for hiding bodies.
Producer Dave
00:04:51.820 - 00:04:52.220
No.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:04:52.460 - 00:04:53.500
As far as you know.
Colin True
00:04:53.580 - 00:05:05.640
Yeah, there it is. All right, well guys, before we get into our main stories today, listen, just real quick out retailer or at least their floor plan this past week.
You know what, what do we think?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:05:06.600 - 00:05:50.990
I mean it is if you're looking for brands, newer brands, maybe brands that you haven't heard of in the outdoor industry, I think there's a lot of those there.
I think it, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's the floor, the space is a little bit less than certainly I think even last year, which was a lot less than last year.
But as you look at the floor plan, I think the thing that jumped out at me is that actually the lifestyle section is bigger than the outdoor section and the outdoor section is somewhat dominated by some of the more value oriented entries, more, you know, the factory direct type stuff. Westfield, for example, StanSport, Eusubio, some of those folks.
Colin True
00:05:51.150 - 00:05:56.230
Is Westfield selling malls or what are they doing? They like, you know, can you buy them all from Westfield?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:05:56.230 - 00:06:01.500
Totally different Westfield. Colin, as far as I know, there's no, there's no relationship between that.
Colin True
00:06:01.500 - 00:06:03.060
Is Simon going to be there too?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:06:03.860 - 00:06:26.850
I worked with the Westfield folks, got to meet the founder, et cetera, when, when we were at Walmart because we were actually working on the Ozark trail product at the time. Oh, nice. They make a great entry level tent and backpack. So. But yeah, maybe not some of the core outdoor brands that, that you might think of.
Colin True
00:06:26.850 - 00:06:30.010
Dave, did you have an opinion on the outdoor retailer floor plan?
Producer Dave
00:06:31.050 - 00:07:04.070
It's a floor plan. No, Owen summed it up. It's just, it's the new state of outdoor retailer and let it go from there.
I, I think there's a place for this type of brand and product and to see the category evolution, frankly, that got overwhelmed and ignored in a sense from the kind of the old version of outdoor retailer. So if this is part of the wide outdoors in terms of experience and you know, and participants.
Colin True
00:07:04.150 - 00:07:04.670
Yeah.
Producer Dave
00:07:04.670 - 00:07:07.590
Then this is, this is to me part of the maturation process.
Colin True
00:07:07.750 - 00:07:12.590
All right, so you guys, you're basically gonna make me say it. This is what's Coming on, you guys. I have to say it like, this is rough.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:07:12.590 - 00:07:13.030
This is.
Colin True
00:07:13.030 - 00:07:43.170
I'm sorry, this is just rough. Like, I love you, Sean Smith to death. I think he's a returning champion on the pod. You're. Nothing you guys have said is wrong, but, man, like, it's.
We'll see what happens here. But. And obviously everyone's gonna think maybe we have a conflict because we will be at Switch.
We're not getting paid to go or anything or paid to say this, but I'm just. That was. I don't know if that's a widening, Dave. If like some of the brands that are there, like who. It's a. It was a tough floor plan.
So I definitely am concerned for the long term.
Producer Dave
00:07:43.170 - 00:07:54.050
It's only tough if you're comparing it to something that doesn't exist. Like what. What are you making you say? You sound as if, like there's something else that could be in its place.
Colin True
00:07:54.050 - 00:08:13.420
And there's nothing compared to what we saw last year. I think it is rough. I mean, Owen is right.
It's a, it's a, about a third of what, what it used to be and definitely almost half of what it was last year. So. Yeah, man, sorry. Like, I just gotta call it like I see it.
I was not, I was a little, I'm a little worried for the, for the future of our friends over at, at Emerald after watching after this one.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:08:13.740 - 00:08:18.620
But there is talk of, of I think moving it out of June and maybe moving out of.
Colin True
00:08:18.620 - 00:08:20.060
There are rumors. Yeah.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:08:20.220 - 00:09:33.930
If. And I think if that happens, all bets are off potentially. I do think it'll be interesting because of the overlap.
You know, people were saying, oh, Switchback is right on top of Outdoor Retailer. It's actually not quite right because realistically Switchback is only. It's like I think they have Education Day Monday, then they've got.
It's only a two day show and so you could very easily go from Switchback to Outdoor Retailer. Do both because Outdoor Retailer has the Tuesday education day and then it's open Wednesday through Friday. So you could get two, two days at each.
I'm not sure you even really need two days at each and just call it a week. So, you know, I think it'll be interesting to see how many people do that, you know, kind of go from one one to the other.
But it's definitely going to give you a different set of brands because of the focus more on the lifestyle and, you know, the other piece. But yeah, it's. I don't, I don't recognize many of the brands there. So it's hard for me to, to say you know, what they are or not.
The ones I do recognize, as I say are more some of those more more value oriented players on the outdoor piece.
Colin True
00:09:34.970 - 00:09:51.440
And I think the opportunity still exists and frankly if I'm rooting for one thing to happen just selfishly is that you know, switchback stays where it is and or moves like back to August next year. And I think all of a sudden like that just opens things up in a really interesting way for how this could potentially play out.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:09:51.440 - 00:10:03.040
So I hope those are if or moves to August and the switchback jumps right on top of it again. Now we'll know that really it's just that they're just in it together. Right.
Colin True
00:10:03.440 - 00:10:53.100
It'll be interesting. This topic never ceases to be interesting for sure.
But yeah, just as it looks at looks for this year, I think it's going to, I think we could almost just give the win to switch back for this one. But if or sticks around and they move well, then you know, maybe all bets are off. We'll see where it goes.
Because Dave, I think you are right that that is still the opportunity for them to be that sort of emerging brand show. But we'll see. We'll definitely see.
But let's get into today's opening story which is presented by Oboz, who loves hiking and as the cupid of the outdoors, Oboz wants to help you love hiking just as much as they do. And big news last Thursday as REI released their 2024 earnings and also held their annual members meeting.
We're going to get into the financials and the big takeaways from the meeting in a second. But generally speaking, let's start a little more broadly with our industry insider. Owen, what were your takeaways from what you heard on the call?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:10:53.980 - 00:14:55.630
Yeah, I would say it was better from a loss perspective. The total loss was sort of cut in half but really I look more at the operating income which was better. Right.
It was about a loss of 155 million versus 214 million the year before. So narrowing the loss it sounds like also getting closer to neutral cash flow as opposed to just burning cash. So those are good news.
That's all sort of good news. The challenge was that continued to see softness in the top line.
So sales down over 6% and actually if you look at the the peak in 22, it's down 8.4% and that's despite opening 15 new doors over that time. So really Sales are tough. When you look at the recent history, and I was initially looking at going, oh, this is not great.
But then I'm like, well, okay, hold on a second. 22 is just. This was this crazy outlier year. Everybody was buying everything inside 21, 22, Covid, et cetera. So let's look back a little further.
So I look back to 2019. So in 2019 they did 3.1 billion as opposed to the 3.5 billion they did this year. So they're up on 2019 now. They've also opened a bunch of doors.
So since then they've opened 30 doors. And doing the math, you have to sort of figure out how much is E commerce, et cetera.
But doing the math, I think from a comp store basis, they're down about 5% versus pre Covid. So not great, but not disastrous from the top line.
I think the thing though, to really look at, and especially if you Compare it to 2019, is the profitability piece.
It's like the big question I think on everybody's minds in the new C suite over at REI isn't necessarily how do we ratchet sales back up again to those amazing peaks of COVID It's really, hey, how do we get this thing profitable again? That's the key. And the two big drivers that just jump off the page from a financial perspective are gross margins.
And gross margins are down from, again from the 2019 levels. They're down 470 basis points. So that's 4.7 points of margin, right? So even though it improved last year to 40.4%, it's down from 45.1% back in 2019.
So that's tough, right?
The interesting thing about that is in talking to some REI insiders, I thought that was just, oh, shit, everything has been on sale for the past forever, right? Because they had all this inventory and they had to blow it out, especially on the private brand side.
And what they told me was, yeah, there was some of that, but actually the bigger piece is how they account for the co op member benefit, right? So if you'll remember, the co op provides for a dividend for their members that is 10% of full price sales, yada, yada.
So that's accounted for differently when it's a dividend because it becomes this sort of liability on the balance sheet and it goes below the operating income line.
But they decided when things kind of went to shit and they started losing money, they decided that they would still give this member discount, but they would do it As a promotional discount as opposed to a dividend. And so that's treated differently from an accounting perspective. It comes out of gross margin as opposed to being below the gross income line.
So that's a big part of it here you have to kind of understand. But it's a big kind of drag on the business from that perspective. Is that piece the member. The member beneficial?
Colin True
00:14:56.270 - 00:15:04.270
Well, how does that sort of then play into the plan going forward? Like, you know, what do you do to address something like that? Keep on keeping on. Like what?
Producer Dave
00:15:04.270 - 00:15:07.230
Yeah, build your way out of it. I mean, is that.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:15:08.430 - 00:15:23.550
Well, yes, I think you have to help with overall margins. I think that's why we're seeing, for example, the current focus on things like exclusives. Right. Because exclusives drive full margin business.
Yeah, right. Because you can't get it anywhere else.
Colin True
00:15:24.030 - 00:15:26.670
The promotion is new. It's not a discount, all that stuff.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:15:26.670 - 00:15:34.030
Right, exactly. Backcountry isn't going to add to their latest 20% off coupon. You, you get it at full price, you know, and so shots fired at.
Colin True
00:15:34.030 - 00:15:35.870
Backcountry early in the show.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:15:36.590 - 00:17:09.950
I don't know, there's been a lot of coupons lately, I'm just saying. But shots to come apparently. But anyway, we've got little precursor there for the fans. But the.
No, the member reward is a big chunk of change for rei and you need a healthy REI to be able to afford that long term. But yeah, you're seeing it in that margin number. But the rest of the margin has to be working.
Well, that is selling more product at full margin or selling more high margin private brand product as a percent of the total to really afford that. That dividend.
So yeah, so that's the big one, but really the bigger one, if you actually look at it as a percent of sales delta over pre Covid is payroll. So their Payroll as a percent of revenue is 25%. That is an insane number relative to the rest of the of. Of what they are, which is big box retail.
Okay. Right. You look at. I mean, Dick's is like half that number. I would say roughly as a percent of.
I'm exaggerating maybe, but I would say most other retailers would be in the 15 to 18% range, let's say. So to be 25% is. It's just, it's way over the top. Right.
Colin True
00:17:09.950 - 00:17:20.520
When they point to like that's why you're. You're what you're paying for. What you go to REI for are people who are compensated, who are knowledgeable and everything.
That's, they would probably point to that as a positive differentiator, wouldn't they?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:17:20.920 - 00:18:10.900
Oh, totally. And I think they would be right.
And that's probably the big challenge that maybe lays ahead for the executive team is can we still afford that level of service? Because they do. They pay a very competitive wage.
We went up against when I was a moose show all the time in terms of trying to hire people that love the outdoors. And we were at let's say 15 bucks an hour starting wage, they were at 18. So they do pay well.
And the floor of an REI relative to other stores is very well staffed. I mean there's basically sort of somebody in each section.
You walk into a Dick's Sporting Goods, unless you're just having somebody running to grab you a pair of shoes, you're not going to find somebody. And if you do, they're probably out of high school and don't have the first idea.
Colin True
00:18:10.900 - 00:18:11.780
Don't ask them questions.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:18:11.860 - 00:19:46.480
Yeah, no idea.
So I think that may be part of the challenge going forward is how do we maintain what makes REI special from a retail experience, but not spend as much money from a payroll perspective? How do we do that? In fact, how do we even make it better while having less payroll?
So I think that's going to be tricky and I think it's the reason you've seen some things like them pulling back on their rental programs and other areas, pulling back on experiences, etc. Because. Experiences. The issue there was, was payroll.
You know, I mean, they were making money at the experience level, but they were losing their ass because they had hundreds of people involved in that, in that, in that business unit. The other thing I would say too is, and you know, I hear, I've heard this from a number of people in the industry is corporate is very heavy.
We'll just say that, we'll say that their, their spend on corporate, their corporate overhead relative to the size of the business is, is extremely high, much more so than similar sized big box retailers. And obviously they've had some layoffs over the last couple of years. And in the member meeting yesterday, M.B.
the new CEO, pointed to the fact that there were hard times ahead, tough choices, et cetera. I think some of those tough choices potentially are going to mean more layoffs as they really need to skinny down that payroll number.
Colin True
00:19:47.590 - 00:20:24.430
Well, and I'm sure it's frustrating for them.
You look at the history, just take out the COVID years of just the continued decline, always at least at that down 5% mark, and then you see that nugget of payroll by just sitting there going, well, if we cut that in half, all of a sudden that swings things in a major way. But boy, think of the PR fall out of that from the folks like the REI union and everybody.
If you bring on all of these executives in C suite from these other outside the industry, big brands. And I'm sure, to your point, pretty, pretty nice sized salaries, I'm sure. And then.
Oh, and but then we also just kind of slashed a big chunk out of our. How we pay our employees. That probably wouldn't go over very well.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:20:25.310 - 00:21:10.350
No, not at all. And they have been cutting. Right. If you look at the numbers, they've actually cut, what is it, 40, sorry, $84 million in payroll since 22.
That's a, that's a chunk of change.
The problem is that their sales have declined in line with the cuts in payroll to the point where actually, so they were at 25% of payroll in 22 when, you know, when they had $964 million of payroll, they've cut it down to 880 million. Great. But the problem is that sales are down by over 300 million over that time. So it's still 25% of sales. And that's the challenge.
Colin True
00:21:11.720 - 00:21:38.760
So speaking of things like the union, perhaps the biggest news of the day were the three candidates put up by REI to join REI's board were not elected, meaning they were not supported by the membership base. With credit of this outcome going at least in part to efforts by REI's union to affect the outcome of the vote.
I mean, when you sit back and look at this and you have a company and it's kind of membership based, doesn't seem like they're on the same page. We're going to kind of do a vibe check in a second here, but what would you suggest?
Like, how does this kind of resolve, how do they get these folks on the same page?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:21:41.030 - 00:23:38.430
It certainly isn't a good look because the union did back two candidates or nominees. Excuse me. And I think they had 10,000 nominations for these folks, probably more than any nominees in the history of the REI board.
And in both cases they were rejected by the advisory group that looks at all these nominees, that reviews the nominees to see if they are acceptable to be placed in front of a member vote. And so it's not a great look because.
So the three that they put up didn't get elected and then they eliminated the two that the union had put forward.
In looking at the comments that came out both publicly and in the member meeting on Thursday, basically what they inferred was, hey, listen, we look for board members that have experience running multi billion dollar retail companies. Those are the people that we want.
And while they didn't say this exactly, basically what they inferred was these people didn't have that level of experience that would make them quality board members. To which I say, I get it. If I'm on the board, the things I value in other people are the things I probably value in myself.
My expertise, my retail expertise. Do I want somebody who's going to be disruptive? Probably not.
But at the end of the day, as a company that embraces diversity and has it in their board in terms of racial diversity, gender diversity, diversity of thought, though, is a different animal. Diversity of perspective.
And I really feel that REI is at a point right now where they need that they need to think differently about where are we going as a company. We've had a number of rough years with a board of a certain constitution where they're all kind of the same retail MBA type folks.
Maybe it is time for new voices.
Colin True
00:23:39.150 - 00:23:42.270
Should we tell them now that we're gonna nominate producer Dave for next year?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:23:42.350 - 00:23:43.070
100%.
Producer Dave
00:23:44.110 - 00:23:45.710
I'm waiting for the white smoke.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:23:46.030 - 00:24:10.260
Okay. Yes, it would be almost as shocking as an American Pope, but hey, never say never. They said they'd never be an American Pope.
They probably said they would never be a producer. Podcast producer on the board. That's right. And for good reason. Yeah. Are you a member? Are you a member, Dave?
Producer Dave
00:24:10.260 - 00:24:10.700
I am.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:24:10.700 - 00:24:14.820
Okay, you're in. Maybe we should make this happen.
Producer Dave
00:24:15.620 - 00:24:16.260
Let's go.
Colin True
00:24:16.340 - 00:24:17.620
The campaign starts today.
Producer Dave
00:24:17.860 - 00:24:18.660
Let's go.
Colin True
00:24:19.140 - 00:25:02.810
Well, something that can't really be reflected in the numbers here are kind of the attitude towards REI, the brand. Right. And Owen, there were two comments on your LinkedIn post last week by two people I respect.
One was Wes Allen, Rock Fight's retail correspondent and also a competitor of rei. He owns a retail store. And Fitz Cahal, who hosts the Dirtbag Diaries.
And both Fitz and Wes observed that the goodwill towards REI as a brand seems to be fading.
And as I was watching the meeting last week and reflecting on this, there's something that feels very similar to me that what we've observed at outside over the last few years, you know, things kind of look the same pretty much on the exterior, but maybe it's not the same thing that it. Not the thing that it once was anymore. Dave, from a brand perspective, what do you see happening at REI on the heels of what we just got done?
Discussing?
Producer Dave
00:25:02.890 - 00:25:07.750
Well, you mean from just the optics, Is that what you're referring to?
Colin True
00:25:07.750 - 00:25:14.790
Well, look, it's more of a brand discussion to people. The goodwill is eroding. Right. I mean, it kind of like in terms of like how people feel about.
Producer Dave
00:25:15.670 - 00:26:57.500
Brand is so much bigger than this. When you talk about the membership and then you just talk about the general consumer. I mean, look, REI isn't funded just on their membership. Right.
This whole thing works because they're attracting a much larger group of people to buy into what they're doing. And I'm not sure they're connected to this kind of goings on in the Mecha Nations.
Even the union issues that they have in, you know, media just doesn't cover it. They're just not aware of it. They want a space that feels good with products that they want and need and ideally prices that they can afford. Right.
So if they could figure out how to keep delivering that to the certain group of people, they're going to be immune from it. I mean, they hit all the right chords from the membership, the core user. Yeah, now you're definitely starting to.
The sheen is starting to wear off in the sense that we can expect them to do the right thing all the time or at least have that perception anyway. And that could be fair or not. You know, some miscues and some, you know, just.
It's the, it's the feel of the entire retail industry and outdoor industry right now. Is it just, it's, you know, as it's getting more cutthroat and it's getting, you know, these businesses are tightening.
You know, when you're talking about job losses and you're talking about all of these people who work in the experiential side of things. And you know, this is the, this is the consumer touch point. This is the feels the vibes of the brand are really go through those folks.
And if we have less folks doing that, you're going to have a decrease in that visceral sense of what the brand stands for. That the green vest has always been, you know, kind of symbolic of.
So that's just kind of how I, you know, it's going to erode if we keep pulling away from funding those types of exercises.
Colin True
00:26:58.620 - 00:26:59.660
What do you think, Owen?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:26:59.900 - 00:27:37.530
Well, from my perspective, it does sound as if the new leadership has gotten the message. Right.
If you again, listen to some of the commentary from the CEO at the member meeting, MB said we have work to do to regain full trust of our community. And they said that they were committed to elevating more members and employee voices. So they said all the right things.
Now the question is what will actually happen, right? Will they actually be able to to make a difference and to re engage with their members and their employees?
Colin True
00:27:38.090 - 00:27:51.290
Lastly, on this topic, guys, everyone says that a healthy REI is crucial to a healthy outdoor industry. And we've heard the sentiment from outdoor brands as well as independently owned specialty retailers.
What does all this information about the state of REI say about the state of the industry?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:27:51.770 - 00:28:40.360
What I would say is if the strongest player in the industry is struggling, it just talks to the fact that the overall industry is having challenges. I would also say it points to an overall challenge with the core and authenticity. And that's what a lot of this is about, right?
Is if you do go on Reddit and look at the keyboard warriors, what you'll see is them talk about, oh, there's way too much vuori or run or athleisure or clothing or this or that and harkening back to the old REI where you could go in and get fully outfitted for a backpacking trip. So I think it's not just a challenge of sales volume, but a challenge of authenticity and core and community within the outdoor space.
Colin True
00:28:40.920 - 00:28:58.790
All right, well, today's opening shot of the Rock Fight was presented by Oboz, who wants to share their love of hiking. And we want to help them by uncovering all the different reasons we love to take the long walk, including the following reasons.
Number one, you can find use the word scramble in a sentence and not be talking about eggs. Dave, you know what I'm talking about there.
Producer Dave
00:28:58.870 - 00:29:06.230
Actually, I would say that's point. Number two, you could also use the word scramble to describe a 1980s video game, but.
Colin True
00:29:06.790 - 00:29:08.150
Or a podcast recording.
Producer Dave
00:29:08.150 - 00:29:08.870
That's true.
Colin True
00:29:09.829 - 00:31:24.520
Number two, when you're hiking, you're trading bars on your phone for bars in your belly, which is worse. You decide sometimes those bars are gross. Number three, you might be chasing adrenaline, but you'll probably find peace and maybe a little quiet too.
Number four, there are no HOA rules out here. Just pee where you want at. Number five, hiking means the Bridger Boot Collection.
The Bridger Ridge is here to help you smooth out the rough trails in front of you with enhanced stability and protection. The Bridger Ridge is Oboe's first boot with Gore Tex. So bring on the smiles and the miles in the Bridger Ridge.
And this summer, if you find yourself in the Paramus, New Jersey area, be sure to stop in Camp Campmore and check out their full offering of Oboz boots. And shoes. That's right, Campmore. Not just a cool throwback black and white catalog. You can actually buy your oboes in their New Jersey shop.
And this hiking appreciation moment is brought to you by oboz, a Bozeman, Montana certified B Corp. 6 million tree planter and inhabitant of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem.
Oboz is the maker of premium quality footwear for the trail and the cupid to the outdoor world. Oboz. Love hiking. All right, today's main topics presented by Garage Growing Gear, your hub for ultralight gear.
Learn more by heading to garagegrowinggear.com and as we've been kind of alluding to with our conversation with REI and many other regular topics here in the Rock Fight.
The outdoor industry has a long history of self inflicted wounds, problems that may not seem obvious to others or missteps made where upon reflection, we're not quite sure about how that even happened. But that reflection will also provide an opportunity to learn and hopefully ensure that those kinds of mistakes won't happen again.
And with all that's going on in the world, whether that be at a brand or retailer, or even perhaps at our federal government who wants to gut our public lands and impose tariffs for no good reason, we thought we'd look at some of the more notable examples of our industry's self inflicted wounds and see what we could learn from them. So today we're going to create a hall of fame of brand boners and we each brought an inductee to discuss.
But before we do, let's define what we're looking for. And for me, it's simple.
All right, I'm looking for that instant knee jerk reaction that is just unabashed astonishment that this thing happened that no one in the room said, hey, maybe we should press pause on this and think about it. So Dave, what do you think about unselfinflicted wounds as it comes to some of our pals in the outdoor industry?
Producer Dave
00:31:25.320 - 00:32:07.820
Colin, usually a self inflicted wound is notable by how obviously self inflicted that it is. You know, a lot of these things we look at, like you said, just don't pass the test of what what are you doing?
And that's what makes them fun to look back on and just kind of like let's, let's relive some of these and make sure that we've learned the lessons of them and not repeat some of these mistakes. Or if we want to, in our gluttons for punishment, we can go ahead and repeat them.
I mean, that's part of the, the joy of Being human too is short memory. I mean we're living in a time right now. Who would have ever thunked? But here we are. Speaking of short or of self inflicted wounds.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:32:08.540 - 00:32:09.260
Exactly.
Colin True
00:32:09.260 - 00:32:19.660
Owen, did you have any memories of sitting in those rooms where you're like maybe we should have. Shouldn't have gone forward with that one. We all have. I'm not saying we're not immune from it.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:32:19.660 - 00:33:37.750
On this call, I would say at Moose show we were all a huge believer in fail fast. And so it was, hey listen, let's give something a try. If it doesn't work, there's no blame, no finger pointing.
It's just laugh about it and move on to the next thing. So we did lots of stuff that just didn't work at all. But we had fun. And. Yeah, so nothing maybe to quite these levels. Maybe the jail catalog.
We did a catalog that was that. We did it in a. We actually shot the whole catalog in a jail. Jackson State Penitentiary in Michigan.
And you know, like so we had all these young models, you know, lolling around in north face jackets and stuff. And then there was a prison activity book in the middle where you had to try to not get shaved in the shower.
And so ultimately we thought we were just fucking hilarious. And then quite rightly some people pointed out about like, hey, you know what? The plight of the incarcerated is a real thing.
You are just making total fun of this. And there are a lot of people who are injustly incarcerated as. But this is really in poor taste. And we're like, yeah, you're right.
We kind of dropped the ball on this one.
Colin True
00:33:37.830 - 00:33:39.110
How many of those did you print?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:33:39.910 - 00:33:41.830
A couple hundred thousand. No big deal.
Colin True
00:33:43.030 - 00:33:48.550
Not really a rare thing on ebay these days. Then there's enough of them out there that you could probably find one.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:33:49.590 - 00:33:52.150
I'm sure I have one in the bookcase right next to me.
Producer Dave
00:33:52.390 - 00:33:57.910
You should send one to Chase at Utah State University for their archive. That would be.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:33:58.630 - 00:34:02.390
He was on me for that actually. Yeah, you're like, that will never see.
Colin True
00:34:02.390 - 00:34:03.070
The light of day.
Producer Dave
00:34:03.460 - 00:34:04.180
Oh, come on.
Colin True
00:34:04.580 - 00:34:47.360
Well, so we each brought an inductee because like I said, we want to build a hall of fame. We want to do this again. But some honorable mentions again to set the kind of mood here.
A recent example could be the obsession with NFTs by brands like Nike and Outside.
And I did a chatgpt deep dive and there's been more of these that maybe you realize that folks who really went down the rabbit hole in NFTs that has yet to seem to really work out for folks.
A recent example, not to throw REI back under the bus like we've just been talking about a bit so far, but their endorsement letter of Dou Burgum, not really a great look in hindsight. Dave Yearhood we had the Columbia Tim Boyle vs. The Portland Protesters where he wrote a letter saying, you know, they need to clean up the streets.
Producer Dave
00:34:48.160 - 00:34:58.000
Right. Well, you know, I think the pictures of Tim Boyle out with batons, you know, beating people was probably not a great look.
But, you know, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
Colin True
00:34:58.000 - 00:35:00.960
You should send those pictures along with the Owens catalog to Chase.
Producer Dave
00:35:01.200 - 00:35:03.520
Right, right. That's solid. That's solid.
Colin True
00:35:03.980 - 00:35:13.980
And what I'd forgotten about as I was kind of researching this was when the North Face refused to make logos for oil and gas companies. But then everybody threw back at them like, hey, you know, all of your shit is made out of oil and gas.
Producer Dave
00:35:14.860 - 00:35:17.340
The billboard campaign. Right?
Colin True
00:35:18.060 - 00:35:19.180
That's a really good one.
Producer Dave
00:35:19.260 - 00:35:21.740
That is a good one. That is a good one.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:35:21.820 - 00:35:22.180
Wow.
Colin True
00:35:22.180 - 00:35:26.940
Yes. That's more the pious hall of Fame than the. Than the self inflicted Wound hall of Fame.
Producer Dave
00:35:27.580 - 00:35:30.860
I mean, you gotta think they probably actually made some good press out of that. Anyway.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:35:31.020 - 00:35:39.190
There's a. There's a whole pious. I think there's a whole pious annex in the hall of Fame. I mean, the outdoor industry, you get pretty darn pious.
Colin True
00:35:39.510 - 00:36:05.570
So, yeah, there's definitely all these that we've talked about in the past on the show. So we each brought one to the table here to induct in the hall of Fame. And mine is the Lululemon See through tight scandal of 2013.
I want to get ahead of this to anybody who says that Lulu isn't an outdoor brand and thus should be qualified. Like, no, Lulu's enough of an outdoor brand. They qualify.
They're making stretch products and outdoor products you can hike, you can do outdoorsy things in. So I absolutely. They qual in this regard.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:36:06.050 - 00:36:11.330
And this is like the ultimate example too. So it's too good not to bring up.
Colin True
00:36:11.810 - 00:37:02.510
Okay.
So 2013, Lululemon had to issue a recall for several products after it was discovered that the fabric they used, which is a stretch fabric called Luan, became quite sheer, let's just say, especially when an individual would bend over. So if you didn't quite pick up on, that means people could see your ass when you bent over wearing these tights.
The recall affected roughly 17% of Lulu's invent and caused a nearly $67 million hit to the brand. There was of course, immediate fallout from this. You can go back and find articles right now in like USA Today, like will Lulu survive?
You know what's happening. But it was mostly bad PR and angry customers. The CEO at the time, Christine Day, did step down shortly after the recall was issued.
I couldn't find if it was ever confirmed that that recall was the reason for the CEO change, but the timing is suspicious. Owen, do you know if that was.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:37:02.510 - 00:37:05.960
Was there a direct correlation there or do not know? No.
Colin True
00:37:05.960 - 00:39:13.120
Okay. It happened though, so there might be some correlation. But anyway, that was rough for Lulu. I mean, but they were already a billion dollar company.
They were growing at the time. But the ultimate self inflicted wound wasn't really that.
It was what came several months later when during an interview with Bloomberg, Lululemon founder Chip Wilson suggested that it wasn't the fabric that was the problem, but it was the women trying to wear the pants that caused the issue. The quote of frankly, some women's bodies just don't work for the pants. And he doubled down on this multiple times.
He reiterated the point during several other interviews as well, suggesting that the pants became see through because women were buying sizes that were too small for them. These comments of course, created massive outrage. Wilson issued a video apology, but it was too late.
And he then resigned as Lululemon's chairman of the board. Not too long afterwards, he then in 2015, stepped down from the board entirely.
He wouldn't let it go though, because in 2018 he said he believes the company would be in better shape if he were still involved. That was in 2018. I just looking at this, preparing for this.
On February 2nd, Lulu reported an annual revenue of $10 billion, which was a 10% increase over the previous year. It's probably a reason we don't talk about Lulu a lot on this pod because they're just generally doing pretty good.
Lulu's kind of crushing it in the world where that's not happening. So you know why they belong on this list. You know, I think all three of us can sympathize with a product that leads to a recall.
You know, Lulu was fortunate that they were big enough that they could absorb that hit in 2013. But the whole thing started in March and had kind of run its course by the end of summer until that one guy had to open his mouth that fall.
And lastly, like, what lessons can we learn? Just be quiet, Chip. Like why? Like why? Why did you have to go on TV and say that? Like, ultimately it really only hurt him?
Because this is probably the first line of his obituary. Kind of stink that won't wash off, but man. Hey, founders, executives, marketers, anyone with a microphone, including those of us on this podcast.
Sometimes you gotta use that inside voice. Just shut it down. Just don't say anything. Have your thoughts, but go ahead.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:39:13.600 - 00:39:25.900
It really spoke to his ego more than anything. Same thing about him saying it would be so much better if he was still involved. Classic sort of founder ego.
Because it couldn't be the pants problem, it couldn't be his product's problem. It had to be the customers issue.
Colin True
00:39:26.140 - 00:39:26.540
Right?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:39:26.620 - 00:39:33.340
So, yeah, yeah, just keep it to yourself. Not good. But where is he today, by the way?
Colin True
00:39:33.580 - 00:39:35.660
I don't even know what's, what's Chip up to these days?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:39:36.140 - 00:39:39.100
He is a major shareholder in Amer Sports.
Colin True
00:39:40.060 - 00:39:42.300
Well, worked out pretty well for Chip, I guess.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:39:42.620 - 00:39:44.900
I. I think Chip is just fine.
Colin True
00:39:44.900 - 00:39:45.900
He's just fine.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:39:46.060 - 00:39:47.100
Yeah, he's still.
Chris DeMakes
00:39:47.180 - 00:39:47.580
Okay.
Colin True
00:39:47.580 - 00:39:55.540
That might be the case, but I could still, you know. Yesterday, Chip Wilson passed away, notable for the time he told women they shouldn't.
Producer Dave
00:39:55.540 - 00:40:04.000
Wear his pants because they were too big. Yeah, right. Maybe some businesses just aren't built for everybody's ego.
Colin True
00:40:04.400 - 00:40:08.880
Owen, who'd you bring to the induction ceremony today for the self Inflicted Wound hall of Fame?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:40:09.360 - 00:41:46.220
Well, I kind of teased it earlier in the show, but it is my friendly competitor from back in the day, backcountry.
So In November of 19, Jason Blevins of the Colorado sun broke the story that revealed backcountry had filed dozens of trademark oppositions or lawsuits against smaller companies that had backcountry in their names, arguing trademark infringement since 2018. And all of this was handled by the law firm ipla.
So why they belong on this list is because it just caused an absolute shitstorm because they were going after really lots of small, really nice brands. Backcountry Babes, which was a women's avalanche education and ski clinic, which had been founded in 1997.
They went after them Backcountry Nitro, which was a nice small coffee company. Backcountry Denim company, which is jeans company.
And then even in my backyard here in Michigan, Marquette Backcountry skis like a niche hand built backcountry ski maker. Right.
And so they just went after all these people and it was, it was a shit show because the, you know, our, our customer base just said you can't just own the term and monopolize the term backcountry. That is who we are for a lot of folks that are backcountry skiers. So you're going to basically own that it was not a good look.
And also the fact that they brought in some pretty nasty high priced lawyers to bully these brands was just rough.
Colin True
00:41:48.390 - 00:41:52.070
What lessons were learned for the industry? What are the takeaways for this one?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:41:52.870 - 00:43:39.500
Well, I think lesson one is don't be a dick. Okay. I mean, I think that's probably the biggest one, but because why I say that is the outdoor industry is different.
And I know we like, oh, we're in the industry and we just think that, no, I've been in other industries and the outdoor industry is different. It's different because of the way the industry works together.
It's also industry is different in the fact that our customers see themselves as part of a community and they really value openness, access, all the things, all the things we're talking about as it relates to rei. And so you can't go around like this being a bully, being a dick.
And so that was, I think, one of the biggest drivers behind the whole boycott that, you know, that was actually quite effective and it really did hurt them from a sales perspective for quite a while. And at the end of the day, I mean, despite a big public apology and they dropped all the suits, et cetera, the CEO ultimately lost his job over this.
He was gone early the next year. And I actually feel a little bad for the guy because he was really misled by these asshole lawyers.
I think probably his sin was not understanding the industry he came from.
He was a banker and so he didn't, I don't think, like, I think if, if anybody, you know, on the pod here, if a lawyer came to us said let's go out and you know, sue the hell out of all these little browns with backcountry in the name, you'd go, what? Do you have any idea how that's going to go down? That is an awful idea. Right.
And so, but there wasn't that sense of like, oh yeah, it sounds like a great idea, yeah, let's, let's fuck these guys, let's go after them. So yeah, it was just a really, a true self inflicted wound, quite frankly.
Producer Dave
00:43:40.370 - 00:44:06.760
Right.
And you know, like you said about the industry's kind of norms, this doesn't even address the fact the likelihood that this not, none of this is enforceable. There is no way in any world that the term back country can be enforceable now. You got to have the resources to combat it.
You know, again, the only ones that make out in an IP dispute are the lawyers themselves. Right. But this wasn't enforceable from the beginning and they knew it, you know, and then they just.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:44:06.760 - 00:44:08.640
They figured they could just bully people.
Producer Dave
00:44:08.800 - 00:44:16.720
Right. And again, you're right. That's bad advice. Absolutely bad advice. I doubt the merchants at Backcountry were thinking about that. Right.
They were just trying to do their job.
Colin True
00:44:17.200 - 00:44:25.280
You know, of the three of ours, this is. This is the most. Like, no one in the room like, raised their hand to be like, guys like, no, we can't.
Producer Dave
00:44:25.280 - 00:44:28.880
Maybe they did. Maybe they did. Probably no idea, right? Yeah.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:44:29.120 - 00:44:52.940
Or maybe that maybe they didn't. Beyond. Maybe beyond the c. The. The CEO and the lawyers, they didn't know it was happening until it broke. I'm sure there.
I mean, I know some of the executives that were at Backcountry at the time who since moved on, who I know they would have known. So I doubt everyone knew what was going on. They probably found out about the same time everyone else did when that story broke.
And they're like, we've been doing.
Colin True
00:44:53.420 - 00:44:54.060
We did what?
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:44:54.060 - 00:44:57.300
To whom? Are you fucking kidding me? Yeah.
Colin True
00:44:57.300 - 00:45:04.980
Update your resume, boys and girls. Dave, what do you got? Who's your inductee?
Producer Dave
00:45:05.610 - 00:45:09.050
I don't know if mine's as sexy as those two. Those are pretty fantastic.
Colin True
00:45:09.770 - 00:45:11.330
I'm excited about it because this is.
Producer Dave
00:45:11.330 - 00:48:06.860
A self inflicted wound, but it had help. Colin, I want to talk about the H.I.G. index or the H.I.G. index debacle. And this one I think had some help.
So maybe it's not completely self inflicted, but it certainly did go down that way. So for those of you don't know, because this is a little obscure and like I said, not as quite sexy as the other two stories.
But in 2012, a group called the Sustainable Apparel Coalition, or SAC, SAC created this index to assess environmental social impacts on footwear and apparel, trying to make it easy to understand.
This is part of a whole group of like sustainability standard organizations, SSOs that certify brands and you know, standards and metrics and for fair, or excuse me, for. For environmental use, for social performance. You've heard of Blue Sign, Okio Text, Fair trade, things like that. And they're not new.
I mean, Okio Text goes back to 1992 in fact. But the original goal of the HIGG Index was to create this standardized science based tool for measuring environmental social impacts.
However, in 2022, New York Times released an expose detailing the flawed methodology of HIG and highlighting how the tool favored synthetic materials like polyester over natural ones. How it used outdated and non transparent data. And so they just Kind of laid bare this whole, this whole system.
And of course, you know, critics immediately cried greenwashing, which is, you know, possibly the worst thing you can have for a trust mark built on sustainability. And then. Right. I mean, just in rapid succession, the Norwegian consumerist Lordy ruled that they no longer could trust it.
It was misleading and forcing big brands like hmm and Neurona to suspend their use. I mean it just.
And they then this, this, the Sustainable Apparel Coalition had to halt operations of it and suspend it and you know, you know, pending an independent review. Now this all happened like in six months.
Like this was just a rapid unraveling of one of the top three or four marks that we had in the industry to use it to verify this stuff. And so they doubled down in the same kind of way. Nope, we're right. We're right. But then, you know, had to kind of walk it back.
And so what did, what did they do? What any good brand steward would do in the face of a PR crisis is that they rebranded. Right. That was the big takeaway within a year.
And the Sustainable Apparel co. Okay, first I'm going to say they, they realized that HIG was the problem. So they're going to do the work.
They're going to, to expand the offerings beyond just apparel. They're going to focus on more accurate real time data.
They're going to help brands track and reduce admissions and supply chain issues and they're going to call it worldly.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:48:07.180 - 00:48:08.700
It's the same methodology.
Producer Dave
00:48:09.900 - 00:48:31.490
Yes, I believe so, but we don't know. But it's worldly, Owen. And, but is it worldly? It's worldly. So that the HIG index now became worldly. I'm not sure how it stands for all of the, that.
I, honestly, when I saw it, I, I thought it was a new New York Times game. I was really kind of psyched for it. But that is not it. But not to be.
Colin True
00:48:31.490 - 00:48:37.370
When you're trying to evade the authorities, first thing you do is you change your name. I mean, shave your beard, change your.
Producer Dave
00:48:37.370 - 00:49:00.550
Name, you got a new id.
Well, and then, you know, the Sustainable Apparel Coalition also facing the similar kind of stink, if you will, they had to go through their own thoughtful and meaningful rebranding exercise and they became name Cascale. Right, The Sustainable Apparel. And I kid you not, this is how they came about this, that the CAS is SAC reversed.
Colin True
00:49:01.430 - 00:49:04.790
The ca Sustainable Apparel Coalition. The initials.
Producer Dave
00:49:05.350 - 00:49:05.910
That's right.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:49:06.230 - 00:49:06.910
Okay, sorry.
Producer Dave
00:49:06.910 - 00:49:23.360
The CA in CAEL stands for collective action and the LE stands for the ambition to Scale and drive impact at scale. That's the, that's the new brand name for the Sustainable Apparel Coalition.
Colin True
00:49:23.520 - 00:49:38.480
And then according to Sophie Benson, friend of the POD environmental journalist who attended the launch of Cascale, they, they rolled out a red carpet, had a giant party to celebrate themselves, even though they basically exist shamefully. And they had merch for sale.
Producer Dave
00:49:38.640 - 00:49:39.440
Yeah, right.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:49:39.680 - 00:49:40.400
Clothing merch.
Producer Dave
00:49:40.800 - 00:49:41.520
Clothing merch.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:49:41.520 - 00:49:41.840
Yes.
Producer Dave
00:49:41.840 - 00:49:42.040
Right.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:49:42.040 - 00:49:44.320
Yeah, yeah.
Colin True
00:49:45.120 - 00:49:46.160
Because that's the way to go.
Producer Dave
00:49:46.400 - 00:50:24.400
You know, I, I guess, you know, again, the. Yeah. Anytime you're trying to. And again, the science shows us that polyester based things do have a longevity that can be more beneficial.
However, if you're trying to sell poly, you know, polyester and synthetic petroleums as a viable alternative to naturals, that just doesn't pass the common sense test to most people. So you're going to be in trouble there and you're going to have to figure out ways to do that and transparency is going to be the key to that.
Not, not. Honestly, Cascale I thought was a, a dish soap like out of the, the proctor portfolio.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:50:24.400 - 00:50:24.600
Right.
Producer Dave
00:50:24.600 - 00:50:51.580
It does feel like that. And the process to come up with it really feels a lot like.
I don't know if you've seen the Avatar type font skit on Saturday Night Live with Ryan Gosling. I feel like there's something going on in that same. That's right, Papyrus. But yeah. So that one was compounded itself, I think.
And I think they've lost any equity that they had, you know, with hig and it's gonna be hard to get that back for sure.
Colin True
00:50:51.980 - 00:51:02.860
I guess. It's such a great story and honestly I feel like that's the best of the three. Cause of when you take how far it goes and how in depth it goes.
Was it self inflicted? I guess it was completely the whole thing self inflicted.
Producer Dave
00:51:02.860 - 00:52:05.780
There's a couple things and self inflicted just in the sense that, yeah, they took the process of what? They took their process and delivered it as truth.
Look, the major brands also have a place in here because they also took this story and they made it even simpler. Right. And so they watered it down even more. And so now you take something that was kind of amorphous at the top and try.
And all of a sudden you've got everybody making these declarative statements of purity and that's. Now you're into the greenwashing thing. So I do think it was a, a combination that.
And then they undermined their own kind of mission by promoting this oversimplified, you know, favorable Metric rather than the, the, the, the murkiness that really is. And again, as one who's had to market ingredient brands before, murky is hard to get around.
But that's the reality of the science and everyone working on these issues. Like we said, there's no one answer. But man, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't, but they damned.
Colin True
00:52:06.100 - 00:52:14.980
Did you have a lessons learned or is it kind of all of it lessons learned? I mean, yeah, don't take the easy solution brands. Maybe do your research.
Producer Dave
00:52:15.060 - 00:52:50.580
Research, right. Make sure your declarative statements are passed the, the smell test. Right.
I think just again, there's just this sense that you got to be okay with ambiguity and the murkiness. You're going to have that.
And number the last one, I would say kind of what I already reiterated is that look, when common sense is screaming one thing, even though you have this like, you know, you could point to these metrics or this, you know, data to you can, you know, spin it around to make it right, you got to watch it. And common sense is, it will get you.
Colin True
00:52:51.860 - 00:52:52.340
Wow.
Producer Dave
00:52:52.740 - 00:52:53.540
That's my view.
Colin True
00:52:53.540 - 00:53:00.100
I think that's a great inaugural class to the self inflicted wound hall of fame. I think all three of those are wonderful.
Producer Dave
00:53:00.420 - 00:53:08.100
Right. And I have now stocked up on Cascale and my dishes have never looked cleaner. Colin there removes food. Yep.
Colin True
00:53:09.140 - 00:53:44.170
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Check out all the gear you could ever need and want@garagegrowngear.com all right, last. You know what Owen's got to do. Our parting shot. Today we got the parting shot from Owen. The floor is yours, sir.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:53:44.650 - 00:53:51.450
Thank you. So, you know, I don't have an axe to grind with aero. Yeah, I would say. You know, I think as you've said.
Colin True
00:53:51.610 - 00:53:54.250
I could replay the first part of the podcast for you if you.
Eoin "Captain" Comerford
00:53:54.330 - 00:56:01.490
I was. Hey, I was merely reporting on the numbers, Colin. I wasn't grinding any axes. I really don't.
And I wish the best for the new team there and I do think the industry needs a good rei. But there's one thing that just has irked me forever with rei. And it's how they tried to gaslight us with their impact report financials.
It's just complete bullshit. Okay, so they talk about this year of 282 million invested back in the co op community invested. Okay, so let's look at that number.
Okay, so we've got 85 million is employee profit sharing. So basically it's 401k matches. Okay. Which any company does. Right. They don't ask for a gold medal because they're doing just basically 401k match.
But okay, so that's the first one. The second one, 189 million is CO op member awards. Okay. Basically a loyalty program. Moosera. We had a loyalty program. It was called Moosera Rewards.
We gave 10% back. Yeah. Again, we weren't asking for a medal for that item because we realized we were doing it selfishly as a loyalty program.
So the only really noteworthy number out of all of the 282 million is the 8.9 million that REI donated to 300 nonprofit organizations, which is great, and I applaud them for that. The one thing I would say, though, is that 8.9 million is only 0.25%. So a quarter of 1% of the $3.5 billion that REI did last. Okay.
Which is well below the 1.5% that the average GOA independent retail store gives to local charities. So, yeah, just please stop the gaslighting. Just move on. We've been doing this for years. Maybe as part of the new, more direct, more in touch rei.
Let's get rid of the bullshit.
Colin True
00:56:01.650 - 00:56:12.990
Yeah, that's invested back into the co op community line. That's the. We know you're not going to research this, so it's going to sound real good in print, you know, just like, oh, wow, that's great.
They invested in the community. Isn't that great?
Producer Dave
00:56:13.230 - 00:56:17.830
There's a bunch of experienced facilitators that would like to raise their hand.
Colin True
00:56:17.830 - 00:56:59.240
Yeah, how about you invest back into our car jobs? Wow. Good one good parting shot. We're going to wrap it up there today, everybody.
Come back on Wednesday to hear Gear, Abby herself, Shantae Salibair, and then again on Friday. And who knows, maybe there'll be some other things in between. Stay tuned. The Rock Fight.
To find out on Tuesday, though, you'll get a new episode of Open Container, hosted by Doug Schnitzbahn. And the Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight llc. Today's episode was produced by producer David Karstad, art direction provided by Sarah.
The real hero here, Gensert for Owen the Captain Cumberford, I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And here to take us out, it's Chris Dmeigs with the Rock Fight fight song. And we'll see you next time, rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:56:59.400 - 00:58:02.080
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree we talk about human powered outdoor activities and pig bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music the latest movie reviews Ideas that aim for the head this is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock flight.
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