Click Here To Listen!
Today on The Rock Fight (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Colin is joined by Rock Fight regulars Justin Housman, Eoin Comerford, and Producer Dave to power rank the current top 5 outdoor footwear brands!
This episode presents a (sorta) thorough examination of the outdoor footwear market, as The Rock Fight crew rank the top five footwear brands currently shaping the outdoor industry. They start with a candid acknowledgment of the overwhelming amount of brands, before holding a focused discussion on footwear that will set the stage for category rankings to come.
The episode wraps up by establishing the current five outdoor footwear brands with the most juice going into 2025 as well as an encouragement to our listeners to send all of their (angry?) footwear feedback to myrockfight@gmail.com!
Check out hundreds of wildly cool products by visiting and shopping at:
Thanks for listening! The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight, LLC.
Sign up for NEWS FROM THE FRONT, Rock Fight's weekly newsletter by heading to www.rockfight.co and clicking Join The Mailing List.
Please follow and subscribe to The Rock Fight and give us a 5 star rating and a written review wherever you get your podcasts.
Want to pick a fight with The Rock Fight? Send your feedback, questions, and comments to myrockfight@gmail.com.
Click Here To Listen!
Episode Transcript
Colin
00:00:00.160 - 00:03:13.038
Hey guys, it's Colin. Real quick before we get going. On today's episode, we ranked the top five best outdoor footwear brands.
And as you'll hear during the episode, we started out intending to do more than just footwear, but then realized that would take like eight hours. So we decided on the fly to do just shoes. So lucky for you, we're going to do this again for apparel, gear and accessories.
But for today, it's footwear only, and I think you'll agree that's enough. Thanks for listening and enjoy this episode of the Rock Fight.
For years, outdoor brands have shouted to the skies, each claiming their gear is better, tougher and smarter than the next. They bragged about seams and fabrics, about features you didn't need.
And when the world started caring about the planet, those same brands tried to have it both ways, making the same old stuff but slapping on a green label to soothe the conscience. But Livesyn isn't like the rest. Livesyn was born to help you strip it all down, to live with intention. Own less, live more.
It's a simple creed, but simplicity is what matters most. We've been timeless since before we even had a name. Livson grew out of a deep hunger for freedom, a love for this earth and the people who walk it.
We don't obsess over the gear. We focus on the life the gear lets you live. Retailers think on this.
How many brands do you carry that are cut from the same old cloth, filling racks with sameness? Couldn't your floor use something different?
A brand that doesn't just sell clothes, but sells a way of being Lifts and gear is built to last, to be repaired, to stick with your customers for a lifetime of trails, peaks and adventures in the Ozarks. We have an honest, gritty sensibility with a sharp edge of style. It's what happens when the love of the land meets a modern streak.
And if you're wondering Lives founder Andrew Gibbs Dabney can explain it better than anyone. Look, here's the straight talk. We believe in liveson enough to put our name on it. Send in your fall 25 preseason orders by January 15th.
Mention this podcast and you'll get the Rock Fight preseason special, a clean 2% off stacked on top of Lipson's own preseason program. Discounts don't wait. Stock the brand that's burning hot in the outdoor world, the brand that's here for the long haul.
Be a rock fighter, not just another retailer. Liveson. Own less, Live more. Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True. It's Monday and today we're kicking off 2025 with the Rock Fight's first outdoor brand power Rankings of the year.
We're gonna definitively rank the best outdoor brands going right now. But before we get to that, have you subscribed to Rock Fights weekly newsletter?
I ask you every time, but if you haven't, you really should because you still have time to get some more original Rock Fight content. This is a real newsletter, guys, with real content, not just another outdoor link aggregator. Head to Rockfight Co.
Click Join the mailing list to sign up.
And if you're new around here, we'd love for you to subscribe and join the Rock Fight by hitting the follow button on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on. Also, give us that five star rating.
Hey, make sure you come back to the Rock Fight this Wednesday where Justin Hausman and I will be talking, taking our weekly turn through the headlines to come out of the outdoor adventure community. And lastly, come back this Friday to hear my conversation with another industry insider, Matt Powell.
Matt is coming on the show to offer his 2025 predictions for the outdoor inactive space. It's an action packed week here at the Rock Fight, but first of all, let's start this show the Rock Fight.
Eoin
00:03:13.174 - 00:03:15.450
Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin
00:03:17.880 - 00:03:20.048
You're listening to Rock Fight Radio.
FITS
00:03:20.144 - 00:04:17.040
A ball sock for all times. It's no ordinary sock. It does what it says it does. Fit Are socks marine? Oh, but they don't fall down. This sock fits better than your sock.
A funky shaped sock that's an elegant solution to bunching in the toes, heel slippage and falling down at the ankle. A sock with padded tip knit structures that achieve whole foot comfort that you can really feel like who A sock that acts like a base layer.
A sock that's all about the base layer. A thermo regulating moisture wicking body forming base layer fits as a sock that fits better than your sock. Maybe even the best sock ever.
It really could be fits a bull sock for old times. It's no ordinary sock. It does what it says it does. Fit, fit, fit, fit, fit, fit. It really could be fits.
Colin
00:04:19.450 - 00:05:01.828
Welcome back to Rock Byte Radio. I'm DJCT and that was Bold Sock, the newest track from Fitz.
Fitz has been knitting the hit since 2014 with their patented whole foot comfort approach to making fine gauge merino performance socks. With their custom fit feel. It's like nothing else they make some of the best basics in the biz. Retailers.
With all new branding and new packaging on the way, the time is now to get in on a refreshed sock wall for spring and fall. All right, let's get back to the show. All right, today we have quite an assembly of talent here on the Rock Fight.
We have producer Dave, we have Rock Fight consigliere Owen Comerford, and we have a Rock Fight co host, gear expert and cicerone, Justin Houseman. Happy 2025, everyone.
Eoin
00:05:01.964 - 00:05:02.800
Thank you.
Justin
00:05:03.100 - 00:05:05.028
Yeah, it is 2025. Happy New Year, guys.
Colin
00:05:05.044 - 00:05:07.172
This is where we all talk all over each other for five seconds.
Eoin
00:05:07.236 - 00:05:10.120
Absolutely. It's great podcasting.
Colin
00:05:12.940 - 00:06:01.164
So I feel like we've been dancing around this subject for the two years this podcast has. Last week, producer Dave hit on it because he bringing the idea the concept of relegation.
On last Monday's episode of the Rock Fight, we figured out it was time. Today we're ranking the best outdoor brands, at least in two categories of outdoor brands.
Before we get to the ranking, let's just talk for a minute about why we're doing this. I think, first, because it's fun. What more do we talk about, if not brands in the outdoor space?
Secondly, there's so much PR spin and fanboy or fan girl adoration for the brands in the outdoor space.
I think it's important to draw a line in the sand and establish who the top dogs truly are or who has fallen from top dog status and maybe who's rising through the ranks. But I want to get all of your thoughts on this. Owen. Why do you think we should. Why do you want to do this ranking today?
Eoin
00:06:01.252 - 00:06:27.590
I'm not sure that I do.
I think we're going to get just massive amounts of hate coming off of this because the one thing that I can absolutely guarantee is we will be wrong about things and somebody's going to call us. It's going to be interesting. I have already changed to a PO box and I've got disguises for traveling through airports. It's going to be interesting.
Colin
00:06:27.670 - 00:06:34.090
Dave, why do you think maybe Rock Fight's particularly suited to create a ranking of brands?
Producer Dave
00:06:34.510 - 00:06:49.894
I don't think we have a choice going. I think this is an inevitable result of half formed opinion and half baked ideas.
And I think that this is what experience and a little alcohol will get you is. Greatness is being drunk.
Eoin
00:06:49.942 - 00:06:53.814
Right? Greatness is being thrust upon us is what you're inferring. We have.
Producer Dave
00:06:53.822 - 00:06:58.198
No, that. That is. That is exactly right.
Colin
00:06:58.254 - 00:07:13.354
Justin, you've been reviewing gear you know, as long as you've been a journalist, like, you know, when doing a review, you know, does the brand play into your experience evaluating a product? You and I have talked a lot about, like, you know, what brands do you actually care about.
But when you are reviewing something and evaluating something, do you consider the brand?
Justin
00:07:13.502 - 00:07:30.386
I guess I do. I mean, I should say no, but yeah, I mean you have a soft spot for certain brands. I've also developed the, the I, I hope anyway talent to.
I feel like I can rank the brands without pissing the brands off. You know, I feel like I've, I've figured out a way to sort of slot like, you know, I think Justin.
Colin
00:07:30.418 - 00:07:32.114
Comes out of this clean. The rest of us are, yeah, you.
Justin
00:07:32.122 - 00:08:02.238
Guys are gonna, you guys are gonna look bad. But I, I have to maintain my, my bona fides. No, I, I don't know. I feel like, I feel like, yeah, you, I mean some brands are just better, right?
Like, you know, their product's gonna be better when he gets in, when it gets in your hands. I mean that's, that's. No, I mean that's true for anything.
But I, I guess I would, I would like to be more sort, you know, clear eyed about it when I'm going in to review something. But no, you do, you know, you know, like this is, this product is probably going to be good because it came from X brand or this product, right?
It's probably not going to be good because it came from Y brand. So yeah, I'm a human being.
Colin
00:08:02.294 - 00:08:36.770
All right, well, here's how this is going to work, right? So we're going to start with just two products, two categories of product.
We actually talked about doing four, but we realized there are so many outdoor brands. We're gonna start with the first two, which are apparel and footwear. We'll get to gear and accessories another time.
And what we're gonna do is create a list of what we're calling the current top five brands in each of those categories.
Now we've developed a list that we're gonna be going off of and this is where you, the listeners are probably gonna be nodding along an agreement or getting really, really angry at us when we didn't. When we don't talk about your favorite brand, but we've assigned, we've pre, we've done some work ahead of time. Credit mostly to Owen.
Owen did a lot of work on this this week.
Eoin
00:08:37.530 - 00:08:40.946
Rock fight of all time blame to Owen. I see where this is going.
Colin
00:08:41.018 - 00:08:43.922
Okay, so yes, go on LinkedIn.
Eoin
00:08:43.986 - 00:08:46.002
And park the bus over here.
Colin
00:08:46.186 - 00:10:06.480
So we've designated each brand as a quote unquote, it brand. Right? This is the brand at the top of their category. A must have brand, a challenger brand, someone who's up and coming, gaining notoriety.
The steady Eddy brand ones just, you know, they just keep on keeping on.
And then of course, as we've come as become, as has become famous on the Rock, fight the zombie brands, the once sort of big brand in the industry, now really going nowhere with little hope for a return to glory. All right, so these.
So these designations are to establish how much juice a brand has within our industry and community if the brand is trending up or down. So I'm going to go through the list of brands that we've come up with and we're going to decide if that brand should be in the top five.
We'll do it brands. And then on down the list we have five spots to fill. So we're going to go through each one and designate them.
You know, green, which is just in yellow to maybe red is out. And then we'll go back and debate the greens and yellows.
And we've been joking around, but to the listener, we fully acknowledge we're going to miss some folks here. So we talk a lot about the Rock Fighter. There are so many outdoor brands. We'd be here all day if we tried to get to all of them.
So afterwards, send the most glaring omissions to myrockfightmail.com obviously, we'll all be posting about this on LinkedIn as well, so I'm sure the dialogue will be continuing there. But any questions about the rules from our panelists here today?
Producer Dave
00:10:06.580 - 00:10:10.424
And we're just already missing some really important brands. And I can't believe that we're at.
Colin
00:10:10.432 - 00:10:12.620
This point, we're already having second thoughts.
Eoin
00:10:13.280 - 00:10:40.594
What I would say is it brand, though? It doesn't necessarily mean that it's the biggest brand by revenue or anything. Right. It really means it's the.
The brands that people are talking about that you said has the brand juice.
Right now, the top five. Are we talking like top five like that we think are the.
I mean, it's not just the five it brands, it's the five what, like biggest brands or the five brands that we like the most? What's our top five? What's the. What's the.
Colin
00:10:40.682 - 00:10:49.618
Well, that's what we're gonna go through. I said to Owen, we were prepping this, like kind of a tiebreaker for me will be if I'm starting an outdoor Shop today. I gotta have this brand.
Justin
00:10:49.674 - 00:10:52.946
Ah yeah, that's right. You mentioned that. I agree with that. I think that makes sense.
Colin
00:10:52.978 - 00:10:53.590
Yeah.
Eoin
00:10:54.570 - 00:11:29.838
My sort of corollary to that though is there are some brands like on the gear side that have been selling the same shit for years that you kind of have to have, but they're almost zombie brands. Right. So it's not just about sales or kind of do you have to stock it or not? It's more around. Are these the brands that are defining the industry?
Innovating people are talking about these brands. They're driving demand, full price sales.
People are coming in to the stores to actively get this stuff as opposed to, ah yeah, I'm going to get a down puffer and I'll choose between this brand and this brand. I don't really care. You know what I mean? Yep.
Colin
00:11:30.014 - 00:11:49.210
Yeah. I mean there's a nuance and I mean it's all subjective, right?
I mean if we were talking about like the best football teams right now, even though like the Bengals didn't have a great season, you'd have Burrows having an incredible year. Right. So you still kind of have to mention them. Right.
So there's kind of, there's going to be that level of like, well we got to talk about these guys like you know, even if they're in race, not necessarily the biggest or seen as the best.
Justin
00:11:49.910 - 00:11:57.728
I like that you put it into, into, into, into a topic that I'm, I'm already knee deep in right now anyway, which is the playoffs. So this is great.
Colin
00:11:57.864 - 00:12:37.266
All right, well listen guys, before we get started, we first have to talk to you about our new sponsor, Garage Grown Gear. Because the Rock Fight brand power rankings is brought to you today by Garage Grown Gear.
And Garage Grown Gear is your one stop shop for ultralight backpacking gear. Their specialty, if you didn't know, is small and cottage outdoor brands. Hundreds of wildly cool products to help you lighten up your pack.
Maybe a few brands they sell over there we might talk about today.
I'm not sure, I haven't really cross referenced it but you know, if you want to know what their top five best sellers are this holiday season, it's probably not going to be the same top five bestsellers you've seen at any other outdoor shop. There was the 9 gram pad inflator by Alpen Blow. Justin, you know those guys I, I'm.
Eoin
00:12:37.298 - 00:12:40.030
Going to with that name like that, I'm going to know them.
Colin
00:12:40.330 - 00:12:46.962
There's the crazy warm mesh net base layer by I'm not Brinj Brinj.
Justin
00:12:47.026 - 00:12:47.538
Probably not.
Colin
00:12:47.594 - 00:12:48.834
Brinj, you say? Brinj.
Justin
00:12:48.882 - 00:12:49.934
Yeah, that's probably wrong.
Colin
00:12:50.082 - 00:12:55.206
I gotta tell Lloyd over there to send a little pronunciation guide with some of these brands, you know, next time. Do you know that one, Owen?
Eoin
00:12:55.318 - 00:13:01.450
No, that's new to me as well. I thought Alpamville was really big in the 80s, but I may be thinking of something else.
Colin
00:13:04.590 - 00:13:14.502
The most lightweight bear bag on the market by Attotech. A bear bag. All right. And then a Polartech Alpha hoodie by Farpoint Outdoors Gear. Dave, you know those guys.
Producer Dave
00:13:14.566 - 00:13:15.126
I do not.
Justin
00:13:15.198 - 00:13:19.242
Did we talk about that hoodie? Is that the one? The Polartech Alpha one I talked about? We got all excited.
Colin
00:13:19.306 - 00:13:22.074
We talked about the Senshi when we were talking about with.
Eoin
00:13:22.242 - 00:13:22.570
With.
Colin
00:13:22.610 - 00:13:33.658
With Shantae that time. And then the gen 3 night core NB10000 power bank. All right, well, Justin, I have some notes for you on the naming convention.
Gen 3, but, but sounds pretty awesome, though.
Justin
00:13:33.714 - 00:13:35.658
And I've heard of Nightcore, so that's good.
Colin
00:13:35.714 - 00:13:54.742
Oh, there you go. Listen, guys, discover more small brands and see what's new at Garage Growing Gear and sign up for their newsletter by heading to Garage Grown Gear.
That link is also in the show notes. And thanks to GGG for sponsoring this part of the show. All right, Go, Lloyd. We're all pro Lloyd here on this podcast.
Eoin
00:13:54.806 - 00:13:56.950
Absolutely. Lloyd is good people.
Colin
00:13:57.070 - 00:13:59.690
All right, guys, let's get into the list. Are we ready to do footwear?
Eoin
00:14:00.110 - 00:14:01.990
Footwear kicks it off. I love it.
Colin
00:14:02.030 - 00:14:10.210
Okay, okay, so first on the list for footwear on running, are we giving it a green, a yellow, or a red?
Eoin
00:14:10.990 - 00:14:13.158
That's an it brand. We're starting off with IT brands.
Colin
00:14:13.174 - 00:14:20.370
Right, Sorry. Thank you. Yes, we are starting with the it brands. We have five IT brands on the list, and on running is the first on the list.
Justin
00:14:21.470 - 00:14:56.896
Yeah, I, I, Yeah, it's. It's, It's. It's. It's a. It's a. It's a green. It's a green for me, for sure. I mean, I do feel like, based on what I see around and, and what. And I.
So I'm in Northern California, so there's a lot of trail runners here. A lot of trail runners with, with disposable income. I don't see as many.
It used to be that all I would see was on running shoes, and I've seen a little bit of that Tide receipt. A bit. Now that's just as anecdotal. I don't feel like, you know, I don't know if that if that sort of crest has hit its peak or not.
But I think I'll put them in the green. But I have an eye on them.
Colin
00:14:56.968 - 00:14:58.752
It's a green or yellow. It's not a red.
Eoin
00:14:58.856 - 00:15:05.406
It's definitely not red. It's green. But with. I have an eye on you. On running, I have my own. You.
Producer Dave
00:15:05.478 - 00:15:22.430
I think, I think that's exactly right. They, you know, have they hit their peak? Maybe. Are they going away? No. Are they slacking? I don't even know if it's slacking.
It's like when you get that, that much exposure and that much adoption that quickly, there's, there's only one direction to go even as you continue to, to grow.
Colin
00:15:22.470 - 00:15:25.150
I mean they're working with Zendaya so I think they're doing something right.
Producer Dave
00:15:25.270 - 00:15:26.330
Are they really?
Eoin
00:15:28.310 - 00:15:46.064
I think if there's any danger to the brand is that, you know, are we seeing it more on sort of squishy middle, slightly overweight, 50 something white people than we are on trail runners and people who are truly athletic. But that's true of every footwork.
Producer Dave
00:15:46.112 - 00:15:46.896
I resemble that remark.
Colin
00:15:46.928 - 00:15:54.300
And I don't say that's the mark of success for a running brand. Right. It's like how many do you see at the airport? That's how you know they've made it.
Eoin
00:15:54.600 - 00:15:58.420
It's all on. And the next brand we'll talk about hoka. Yeah.
Colin
00:15:58.500 - 00:16:14.180
Well, good. Yeah, good segue. I mean if we end up with more greens, we'll obviously have to like whittle it down. Right.
But the Hoka for me, that's automatic green. Like they to me just can every quarter it feels like, well guess what guys, we blew it away again. Just incredible success coming out of hoka.
Justin
00:16:14.260 - 00:16:47.450
Yeah. And I'm seeing, I have a friend who just bought a, went out and bought a pair of, of hiking boots and he bought Hokas. And he's not a runner.
He would never think of buying Hokas otherwise. And they, they, he thought they were the best looking boots. He thought they fit the best, they felt the best and he loves them very much.
So yeah, they're, they're expand there. It's not just for your, it's not just for runners, it's not just for airport comfort. You know, they're doing lots of, lots of stuff. Right.
I mean I would say nine times out of 10 if I see someone running past me on the street that we're in hocus at this point.
Colin
00:16:47.750 - 00:17:00.218
Yeah. And they're sort of challenging.
Not challenging, but they're kind of up There with, with what the north face has done for so long of like, they seem to maintain their, their cred, trail cred while also still being appealing to everyone. Like, like right.
Justin
00:17:00.354 - 00:17:33.643
I could see them. I, I feel like they might be.
I, I, I do feel like if you are a absolute serious, you know, long distance runner in whatever road or, or trail, I could see you maybe leaning towards some of the, like another brand that we'll talk about in a minute that is a bit more, higher price point, a bit more of a premium product. Even though Hokos are nice, I could definitely see them maybe losing their edge for like at the higher end of the market.
But I don't think that's necessarily where they want to live anyway. And so I think, yeah, I think they're, they're, they're smooth, they're smooth sailing. I mean they're, they're going to be on top for a long time.
Colin
00:17:33.731 - 00:17:37.515
All right, next on the list is New Balance. I go red.
Eoin
00:17:37.667 - 00:17:38.699
Yeah, I don't know.
Colin
00:17:38.739 - 00:17:43.483
This, this looks like a, we have five slots. Like sorry, New Balance. You're not getting in one of these spots.
Producer Dave
00:17:43.611 - 00:18:15.880
Well, first do they are taking an outdoor lens? Does that fit? I think, I don't think you can deny that New Balance is not on up. Their marketing investments are huge.
They're really leaning into generation athletes. They're spending money on television. They're putting their brand in, in, in live, live events. They're all over social. I, I just, I, I just, I don't.
By every measure they're on a, on the rise. It's the question does that fit with a Hoka that's fair.
Eoin
00:18:15.920 - 00:18:26.500
I mean they're, they're, they're absolutely taking share right, right now from, from the, from the Nikes of the world. But from an outdoor lens, probably not. I think that that's a fair comment.
Colin
00:18:27.170 - 00:18:29.386
I'll mark them as yellow and we'll come back to it.
Eoin
00:18:29.458 - 00:18:37.546
That's how I'm, and when we say top five here, Colin, are we saying five total brands that we're talking about that can fall into.
Colin
00:18:37.618 - 00:18:39.510
Yeah, we're pulling five out of this list.
Eoin
00:18:40.210 - 00:18:44.762
Okay, got it. Not five per five IT brands. Five challengers, five.
Colin
00:18:44.866 - 00:18:46.570
No, five shoes.
Eoin
00:18:46.650 - 00:18:50.074
Five brands that are okay. Interesting. Got it.
Colin
00:18:50.162 - 00:18:55.910
Birkenstock is next. That's another one that feels it should be an auto green. But what do you guys think?
Justin
00:18:56.360 - 00:19:08.896
I can tell you from experience that everybody under the age of 20 has a pair of those like I don't know what you call them, the sort of crocky not Crocs. The kind of like the cloggy.
Colin
00:19:08.928 - 00:19:10.480
The Boston Clogs, I guess.
Justin
00:19:10.520 - 00:19:33.258
I don't know where they're. They're like suede across the whole top and a little ankle strap. Every. Every high school kid at my gym, it works out on them every day.
All the kids in their pajamas, they work out, and they work out in standard. At least where I live, the standard high school kid workout attire, if you're a guy, is those. Berkey. Whatever. Maybe they're the Boston Clocks that.
Don't know.
Colin
00:19:33.394 - 00:19:36.074
The ones that are famous for working out with high school kids, too.
Justin
00:19:36.162 - 00:19:56.464
They love this gym. They love this cheap gym. And with their. With their, like, checkered pajama pants and their. And their. And their bur. Clogs. That's.
That's just like, they are freaking everywhere. I would say that. Like, where it used to be 90% of the adults you saw walking around were in bloodstones. Now it's getting to be those.
Those freaking clog things. At least. At least up here. So.
Eoin
00:19:56.552 - 00:19:56.976
Okay.
Colin
00:19:57.008 - 00:20:03.888
Yeah, this is one of Dave's ride or dies, so we don't need him to weigh in on this one. So the. We'll just make it green for now.
Producer Dave
00:20:03.944 - 00:20:06.140
On my feet. On my feet right now.
Colin
00:20:06.600 - 00:20:09.740
With his checkered pajama bottoms, he's hanging out with the high school kids, too.
Eoin
00:20:11.800 - 00:20:13.184
Socks or no socks?
Producer Dave
00:20:13.312 - 00:20:14.992
Oh, no, I have socks. It's cold.
Eoin
00:20:15.056 - 00:20:15.952
Yeah, you got to go. Socks.
Colin
00:20:16.016 - 00:20:16.848
He's in Portland.
Producer Dave
00:20:16.944 - 00:20:21.520
I have the big burly expedition. Sucks. Yeah, you bet.
Colin
00:20:22.780 - 00:20:38.880
All right, next on the list is Nike, the big dog. This is the last it brand on the list is Nike. So what do we think? Do we.
If we're looking outdoor, I think it's tough to give Nike a spot on this list, but if you're having a footwear conversation, you have to talk about Nike. Owen, what are you thinking about Nike these days?
Eoin
00:20:39.420 - 00:20:52.974
It gets to what the definition of a knit brand is. Nike is definitely in a bit of a tough spot. Losing share, still trying to cauterize the wounds that it's created. Yeah, it's not a nip brand for me.
Justin
00:20:53.142 - 00:21:05.182
Okay. They are killing it, though, with the Jordans. I mean, like. Or are they?
God, like, every freaking suburban dad with some money has those shoes right now. I mean, they're everywhere.
Producer Dave
00:21:05.326 - 00:21:12.270
Those words do not work in the same sentence, though. You can't put suburban dad in killing it with that. There's just. Don't. I guess you're right.
Eoin
00:21:12.310 - 00:21:13.198
There's not that many of them.
Producer Dave
00:21:13.254 - 00:21:15.970
I Mean, that's typically the backside of the mountain.
Justin
00:21:16.470 - 00:21:33.262
That's good. Good point. I mean, I live in a bubble obviously, so I, you know, and I don't leave it.
But my God, like all the, all the young dads, you know, with their like thousand dollar Scandinavian strollers are wearing Jordans. I mean, they're everywhere. All my, my, my friend who coaches little league, all the kids are wearing Jordan cleats.
Producer Dave
00:21:33.406 - 00:21:38.142
Well, also too, I might assert, the Jordan isn't Nike. Right. That's not the swoosh.
Colin
00:21:38.206 - 00:21:38.686
That's fair.
Producer Dave
00:21:38.758 - 00:21:46.744
So it's like, it's a different. Yeah, it's, it's crushing a lot on a lot of different levels. But yeah, is, you know, you know, that's true.
Justin
00:21:46.792 - 00:21:54.504
There's, you know, it's a shame too, is I still have some. I don't know if they still make it, but some Nike all condition gear. That ACG brand they had for a while. Yeah, that stuff is great.
Producer Dave
00:21:54.592 - 00:21:57.848
Still do have that brand. Yeah, they do. Great stuff. Really great stuff.
Justin
00:21:57.944 - 00:22:02.680
My favorite jacket that I was just wearing all week in Yosemite was, was acg. And they make some awesome shoes.
Producer Dave
00:22:02.760 - 00:22:10.922
So I put ACG on this list before I'd put Nike just as being an OG outdoor brand. But I'm not sure it's an it because of. It's just.
Eoin
00:22:11.096 - 00:22:12.310
I don't think it's an it at all.
Colin
00:22:12.350 - 00:22:20.886
But they're a downward trending, you know, it brand. Right. And again, we'll see where they end up. But after the last couple years, I have. There's no way that Nike can end up on, on our list.
Producer Dave
00:22:20.958 - 00:22:28.646
No, I would say Ugg is just asking, where's my place? Right here. That's what they're saying. And that's right. Like, wait a minute.
Colin
00:22:28.678 - 00:23:04.710
That's why. Well, UGG is a glaring omission on this list for sure. We'll get you next time. All right, let's move into the challenger brands. Guys.
Let me just write off kind of how. How many we have here. We have four Challenger brands. We have Topo Athletic. We have Norda kind of playing the role of our. That's our super shoe entry.
We have UFOS and tread Labs. Let's start with Tread labs. I think Tread labs is an automatic red. Sorry to the sandal people out there. I question if they're an actual challenger.
Like, you know, I would throw a bedrock in the tread labs spot. Who. Also not on the list. But Tread labs. Anybody want to fight for tread labs?
Eoin
00:23:05.610 - 00:23:12.958
This was my personal one here. I just really like what they're doing. This was the, the founder of Chacos. Yeah, yeah.
Colin
00:23:12.974 - 00:23:13.694
Mark Fagan.
Eoin
00:23:13.742 - 00:23:46.312
Yeah.
Has put together the tread labs. It's early, right? I mean they're pretty early in there. But they sold out of their, their men's sandals last summer.
I personally bought a pair after a rep told me he had bought a pair and paid full price. I'm like, wow, if an outdoor industry rep pays full price for something, you know, it's got to be good.
Okay, so I think they look great. I've been interested in them for a while. I think they look really comfortable. I like what they're doing, but I haven't had any.
I don't, I don't know if I've seen any in person either.
Colin
00:23:46.376 - 00:23:57.800
What about ufos, our after sports shoe on the list?
I mean that's another one of these easy to sort of disregard when you see it, but then you kind of see how well they're performing and they start to show up everywhere. You have to take them seriously.
Eoin
00:23:57.880 - 00:23:58.280
Yeah.
Producer Dave
00:23:58.360 - 00:24:28.180
I think, look, this is in this kind of opera world, this is where Birkenstock's starting to play in. Right. The recovery side. I mean even when we were at Tre, Birkenstock was making a straight up position as a recovery shoe.
And UFOS has always been in that. I mean, you know, that goes back to like the go light days where we were kind of recovery was the beginning of, of that concept.
And UFOS is just kind of the late. They've been around a while. It's not like they're new. They have, you know, but they are starting to get some heat.
Justin
00:24:28.520 - 00:25:23.592
This isn't it. This is interesting.
I've never thought about this before, but I'm realizing now as I'm looking at, at the ufos, I feel like I'm more inclined to go with a brand I trust and to. For like a cozy recovery shoe. I, I might be the minority here.
I'd be more willing to take a flyer on like a more expensive like boot that I need to do some cool stuff for me because I'm interested in what new technology might be out there. Like how are they solving this problem? Like how like how does Zamberlin do this versus Oslo or whatever, you know, like, like I could.
I'm more willing to try a brand I haven't used yet. When it comes to like something I'm just going to slide my feet into at the end of a day. I want something I know for a fact my feet love already.
So like I'm less inclined to try out a kind of an up and coming cozy shoe brand, for lack of a better term, but that might just be me. I feel like they have a harder road to hoe or fugly. Well, that too. I mean, honestly, I'm more willing to put up with a fugly point.
Colin
00:25:23.616 - 00:25:27.282
Would you buy a pair of Crocs over a pair of ufos? Probably. Then if they saw what you deserve.
Justin
00:25:27.346 - 00:25:30.322
I. Yeah, yeah, Honestly, probably. They're a lot cheaper, you know, so.
Eoin
00:25:30.346 - 00:25:52.802
Probably it's tough because UFOS to me, really has a. Created a piece of the market that wasn't really there before and has really defined it for themselves.
And yes, there's lots of other folks that are trying to get into the recovery space, but they've almost cordoned it off and said, no, no, this is actually its whole separate category that we're really trying to own and have done well, I think.
Colin
00:25:52.906 - 00:26:34.062
All right, I'll mark them as yellow for now. Let's get into the. With Norda. And then we have Topo left. I would probably put Topo yellow, Norda red. I like what both these brands are doing.
Justin, you and I talked about Norda's. You were. I know you're a big fan, but in terms of if we have to take other things out to put them in, it's kind of hard to say.
Like, well, that's a $300 super shoe.
Like, you probably have to be pretty into the footwear game to really, you know, feel like you'd want to go to bat for them Versus Topo is sort of this slowly just kind of creeping up on everybody.
Kind of like, you know, feasting out of Altra's myster stakes for the most part and kind of becoming a new issue, especially among through hikers and ultra runners. But I still might mark both of these as I would probably go yellow, Topo red, Norda.
Justin
00:26:34.126 - 00:26:39.182
Which one would you be more? Like, would you be more surprised to see Norda blow up or. Or Topo blow up?
Colin
00:26:39.206 - 00:26:41.262
I like Topo more. Surprised.
Justin
00:26:41.326 - 00:26:53.438
Norda, really? See, I just agree. I feel like Norda has a. I feel like Norda has a. Has a. Has a pretty clean road ahead of them if they want to.
I mean, like, so when we did our test, it was them versus Speed. Speedland. Speedland, right.
Producer Dave
00:26:53.574 - 00:26:53.934
Yeah.
Justin
00:26:53.982 - 00:27:28.600
To me, that's a no doubter. Like, Like Speed Land seem cool. People really love them. I know that. But like, Norda feels like it has much more of a broader appeal. Exactly.
It's more. It's a Shoe I can understand. I'm not like. Like, I look at the Speedlands that I'm a little bit conf. I'm like, I don't know. This is the Nord.
Just look dope. They feel dope. They're great. They're expensive. But I. I feel like we're in the. I feel like we're. It's like I talked about on the episode, like.
Like, I love Hoka. They're great. I have five pairs of Hoka, but, like, now that I have Nordas, hokas feel like toys.
So, like, if I'm going to take this, my running seriously, I could see myself easily spending 300 bucks on a pair of shoes. And if I don't feel like they're gonna have a lot of.
Producer Dave
00:27:28.640 - 00:27:30.888
Do you put craft in this kind of same space?
Justin
00:27:31.024 - 00:27:33.640
Totally. Yeah. Yeah, I would. I would. Yeah.
Colin
00:27:33.800 - 00:27:40.328
All right, let's mark them both yellow, because, I mean, I think a lot what happens with either one of those, it depends on what we do with Ultra.
Justin
00:27:40.504 - 00:27:44.280
Yeah, that's. That's such an interesting point. Yeah, I agree with that.
Eoin
00:27:44.400 - 00:28:17.510
So. So Norda was my add to the list here, and really what I put.
Why I added them here is just brand buzz that I'm hearing, like, talk to a lot of people, and Norda has come up more times this year than almost any shoe brand that I, you know, outside of on and Hoka. So there's definitely buzz, I would say, around Nordisk specifically.
I feel that, too. And I've seen. I've actually seen a few pair around, which is, you know, that's. That's a. It's a niche brand.
It's an expensive shoe, and every time I do, if I'm wearing them, we talk to each other, you know, so.
Colin
00:28:17.550 - 00:28:29.830
Yeah, so we're about almost halfway through our list, guys. I'm starting to feel like we should do four episodes here. Just. We can spread them out. We could do it. That doesn't have to be in the next four weeks.
I just feel like there's enough time here. There's enough meat in this bone that we should probably just make this the footwear episode.
Eoin
00:28:29.910 - 00:28:32.758
I think you're kind of. Well, at least footwear could be its own for sure.
Colin
00:28:32.894 - 00:28:41.142
Sure. I mean, honestly, the way this is going, I mean, I think the accessories one would still take. It'll still be about a half hour conversation.
What do you think?
Producer Dave
00:28:41.246 - 00:28:41.894
Let's just go through it.
Eoin
00:28:41.902 - 00:28:42.422
I'm fine with that.
Producer Dave
00:28:42.446 - 00:28:43.562
Yeah, let's go through it.
Colin
00:28:43.726 - 00:28:51.298
All right, now we're into the Steady Eddies which actually, I love this category. These are just the folks that, like, you know, they're just, they're, they're, they're steady, man. They're just keeping on.
Producer Dave
00:28:51.434 - 00:29:01.202
Once challengers, they might even been it brands. And now they've settled into the Lake Placid of footwear, which, I don't know.
Justin
00:29:01.226 - 00:29:03.458
I'd almost want to be a Steady Eddie if I'm a brand.
Producer Dave
00:29:03.514 - 00:29:05.778
Oh, yeah. Solid. You bet.
Colin
00:29:05.914 - 00:29:49.320
Oh, yeah.
Depends, because all of these, that, that thing I said earlier of you want to put in who you want to have in your shop, like, almost all of these make a really strong case of, like, you want this brand on your footwear wall. For the most part. Yeah. So the Steady Eddies, as a. As a full group, we have Merrill, Keane, Oboz Ultra. Hey, dude. Sorry. Hola, Kai. And Vans. Let's take.
Let's break that in half. So let's do. Let's talk Merrill, Keenan, Oboz.
Because, like, those three, like, there's no way that all three of them end up on the list, but one of them definitely is going to end up on the list. Right. So, you know, Dave, kick us off with Merro Keen, Oboes. What do you got on the trifecta of hiking boots brand?
Producer Dave
00:29:50.260 - 00:29:57.560
Well, this feels like if you blindfold yourself and try to pick one out just by handling it, you'd have a really hard time.
Eoin
00:29:58.500 - 00:29:59.440
Totally.
Producer Dave
00:30:00.180 - 00:30:03.080
Which I think we should do. We should probably set that up.
Colin
00:30:03.700 - 00:30:07.692
That'd be a great. The Pepsi Challenge about this kind of feeling.
Justin
00:30:07.756 - 00:30:11.580
I could probably do that by putting them on. Right? I'd be pretty good. Yeah.
Producer Dave
00:30:11.740 - 00:30:12.702
That's amazing.
Justin
00:30:12.836 - 00:30:15.194
So I can't believe you don't have Danner on this list.
Colin
00:30:15.282 - 00:30:20.010
Look, for Steady Eddie, clearly there was no.
Producer Dave
00:30:20.050 - 00:30:26.170
There's no excuse. Like, wait a minute, what are we. What are we doing here?
Colin
00:30:26.290 - 00:30:48.326
But you probably wouldn't put any of those on a list of the top five over any. Some of the other ones that are going to end up on this list. That's kind of the point. Right. So I. All right. Merrill, Keane, Oboes.
I think the case for Merrill, it's still number one. You know, Owen and I were talking about this week, as much as we give them grief, they still try a lot of stuff.
They doing weird collabs, naming their shoes, weird things. It's.
Eoin
00:30:48.358 - 00:30:48.566
It's.
Colin
00:30:48.598 - 00:31:32.326
You're always kind of cocking your head to the side and going, huh, that's a weird choice. But they're at least out there doing it.
And it is one of those, you know, if you're, if you're opening a gear shop, they're one of the, what first 10 calls you make to, to, to stock your shelves. I think the best of these three is Oboz. I like their product the best between Keane, Merrill and Oboz.
But I'm not sure if I would say that they belong on the list above the other two. And then, you know, Keane is maybe the steadiest of Eddies on all of these on this entire list.
They just, you know, they just keep showing up, doing their thing, make some boots, make some weird sandals and, you know, go home at the end of the day.
So I don't know, I guess I would probably say Oboz selfishly, if I was going to pick one of these three, we can mark them all yellow and come back to it. But I'm curious, you know, Owen, what. Do you have any thoughts on these?
Eoin
00:31:32.478 - 00:32:30.588
Yeah, I mean, the overall hiking boot category is under pressure within outdoor stores because it's losing shelf space to, to, to more running or trail running type type shoes.
If you're an outdoor gear owner, you're like, well, do I want to have hoka, do I have on or do I want to have, you know, the second or third style of Keen? And the answer is you want to have HOKA or on.
The other issue is with stores, a lot of the driver in footwear is the backroom space versus shelf space. And hiking boots take up way more space than running shoes. And so the, all of these folks are facing an uphill battle right now.
Of the three, the one that maybe has the most juice would be Oboz in terms of growth and what it's doing and, and getting out there in the market. Merrell is just returned to growth in the last quarter, so it's been a tough go for Merrill the last, you know, two, three years.
Justin
00:32:30.644 - 00:33:07.168
Yeah, I'm putting oboes in my store, I think. I mean, I like a lot of Keen products and I do think they have a pretty big following out there.
It also kind of depends on where my story is and who, who I think I'm going to be selling shoes to.
You know, if it's like a middle aged and above crowd, like I'm definitely stocking Keens, but I'd rather if I'm going on a, if I'm doing something that I actually need, good, solid, like boots for Keen would work for sure, but I'd still probably take Oboz and always makes kind of more fun. Well, I love those katabatics, right? Like they're, they're they're great. Shoes are pretty great.
Colin
00:33:07.224 - 00:33:07.984
Such a good shoe.
Justin
00:33:08.032 - 00:33:17.632
And so like, I, you know, I, I, I, I don't, quality wise, I would say they're probably pretty close, but I'd probably, I'd stock oboes over Keane and definitely over Merrill. Like, no question there.
Colin
00:33:17.736 - 00:33:51.836
All right, I'll mark Merrill and Keane as yellow and oboes as green. That's still good. Now we're at, we're at four greens.
We know we're up with probably a few more, you know, hard greens and then we can come back and debate it. Maybe, you know, the Merrill or Keane passes oboes when we get of list. Next on the list, we had Ultra and I think that's just an.
I would put that automatic yellow. We don't, it's not a red.
But also, like I said, the conversation we just had around those other brands, you know, if we decide Ultra goes in, that means like Norda, you know, topo. Those brands probably don't. Where do we feel about the state of Ultra?
Eoin
00:33:51.948 - 00:33:54.652
I mean, are they suffering financially right now?
Colin
00:33:54.756 - 00:34:03.890
No, but there's definitely some, you know, there's some rumors about decisions are making going on behind the scenes that are, you know, there's some folks who are maybe not gonna be too happy with some product drops coming up.
Justin
00:34:04.750 - 00:34:28.964
I see a ton of them. I just see, I see a lot of Ultras around. I feel like people that I know that wear them, love them so much. I, I don't know. I mean, they're getting vf.
All of my takes are anecdotal and I live in a very affluent place. So, you know, keep that in mind.
I'm not looking at like numbers or anything like that, but, but I do feel like where I live is probably kind of the target market market for a lot of these brands because there's people that go outside with, with, with disposable income and man, I see a lot of Ultras.
Eoin
00:34:29.012 - 00:34:29.380
A lot.
Colin
00:34:29.420 - 00:34:33.636
Yeah. A year and a half ago, it's like they're, they're right there with Hoka is like the other automatic.
Justin
00:34:33.748 - 00:34:36.388
You've always kind of been down on ultra. I think this is a beef.
Colin
00:34:36.564 - 00:34:36.916
Yeah.
Eoin
00:34:36.948 - 00:35:09.612
But so I, I own a pair of Ultras and you know, I, when I look down on them on my feet, I'm like, man, oh, and have you given up? I mean, you just look like a complete, you know. And then I say, okay, I'm not going to wear these.
I think so to me, they'll never be kind of an it brand unless they're Sort of the anti IT brand like the. The five fingers were at some point. But yeah, I don't know.
I guess I feel like they're the IT brand for thru hikers still. But I'm not sure if that's necessarily the case and that is obviously a tiny market share.
Colin
00:35:09.796 - 00:35:37.352
So I. I was. I'm the biggest. I was was the biggest lone peak fan in the world.
That was my go to show shoe when I was running ultras and but just the last couple years the quality has been a real concern with the outsoles you're starting to see.
I've seen at least two special shopped in last year now who are all in on Topo who don't have Ultra anymore through hikers are starting to like hiking guy.com that he's a pretty big YouTube presence. This guy on. He's switched over Darwin on the trail. He's now wearing topos.
Justin
00:35:37.416 - 00:35:38.056
Is he really?
Colin
00:35:38.128 - 00:36:00.306
So yeah. So it just there feels like there's a little shine coming off the old Ultra and they're.
And they were more like the authentic trail brand versus HOKA was more the big sneaker brand. But also they kind of coexisted in that space. So I'm not writing them off. They're obviously doing well to your point. You see them everywhere.
Dave, you've been quiet on Ultra and I know you're a fan so anything you want to say about Ultra?
Producer Dave
00:36:00.338 - 00:36:23.452
I think all of this is right from a styling perspective. It's hard to ever see them being an IT brand. Like you said, they do have kind of that middle of the road.
But I almost see them as like a working trail shoe. Like I see them, I see them on a trail. I don't see them on the street as much or how you see HOKA and things like that.
But I do see them on people's feet. You know.
Eoin
00:36:23.476 - 00:36:30.156
I agree. I feel like the way I see Hokas when people are running is the way I see Ultras when people are hiking. Like they just seems like that's the dominant.
Producer Dave
00:36:30.188 - 00:36:30.428
Yeah.
Eoin
00:36:30.444 - 00:36:31.932
I see on a trail isn't all right.
Producer Dave
00:36:31.956 - 00:36:32.956
You know and it's.
Eoin
00:36:33.148 - 00:36:42.140
Dave has. Dave has a good point I guess you all do about styling. I mean to me topos feel like a more palatable ultra. Like they feel pretty similar.
They do got the big wide toe box.
Colin
00:36:42.220 - 00:36:43.500
The way they don't look as bad.
Eoin
00:36:43.540 - 00:36:45.260
They don't. They look more like a regular shoe.
Colin
00:36:45.340 - 00:36:55.802
You know that's always been issued. I have a size 13 foot. So that was my. Was my problem with Ultras. Is like, like exactly what Owen just said.
Like I loved running in them, but it's like, hey, let's go out to dinner. I'm like, well, I can't wear those.
Eoin
00:36:55.906 - 00:36:56.170
Right?
Justin
00:36:56.210 - 00:37:03.626
Well, don't forget six toes on each feet. The people with, with 12 toes, they love ultras too, because they have a real wide toe box.
Colin
00:37:03.738 - 00:37:05.210
Getting a little personal now, buddy. All right.
Justin
00:37:05.250 - 00:37:05.786
Also, we.
Colin
00:37:05.858 - 00:37:07.018
I told you that in confidence.
Justin
00:37:07.114 - 00:37:27.146
When we have. Well, you showed me your feet, Colin. I wouldn't really. This is getting weird. Those bedrocks size, size. I also feel like you and I aren't.
It's hard for us to judge because like our feet are so damn big that like the structural integrity of a, of a 13 ultra is probably so different than like a size 9, you know?
Colin
00:37:27.218 - 00:37:27.990
All right.
Eoin
00:37:28.530 - 00:37:32.666
Your clown shoes, they're flopping around. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Producer Dave
00:37:32.858 - 00:37:33.242
All right.
Colin
00:37:33.266 - 00:37:37.418
Hey dude is next on the list. I'm just making them red and we're moving on, right.
Eoin
00:37:37.474 - 00:37:39.018
I, I don't even. I know.
Colin
00:37:39.154 - 00:37:40.474
Advocate for a dude.
Justin
00:37:40.522 - 00:37:45.994
I've, I've heard of hey dude. That's it. I know that they're big. I guess I don't know jack shit about hey dude.
Eoin
00:37:46.042 - 00:38:14.412
Yeah, they probably were in it brand last year. They sort of took the category by storm. I'm not sure how outdoor they are, but definitely huge.
Obviously were then bought by the Crocs folks and it hasn't worked out. And they're trying to put the pieces all back together, but still a lot of volume in the hey dude camp right now.
But it's a little bit more kind of southern frat boy than outdoorsy person, I would say.
Colin
00:38:14.436 - 00:38:32.968
Yeah, it's the sec. It's the shoe of the sec. Right.
And the last two on the Steady Eddy list was Olokai and vans, you know, and you mark them as completely relegated out of the top spot. You know, I agree. I think, you know, they're. They're trending downward, both of them. You know, I'm not sure how much what, anything.
There's more to say. I don't think we're going to make the cut.
Justin
00:38:33.024 - 00:39:44.532
I just want to say something about vans. Just because coming from the surf world, Olakai, actually you could say this about Olkai too. I think.
I think that if I don't know, Olakai will to me always exist. There's always gonna be a market for, for nice high end sandals that have like a Hawaiian sort of link in some way, shape or form.
And vans are never going to go away. I'd realize that, I realize that they're just like hemorrhaging cash and it's a huge problem. But it seems like this happens. Well, I don't know.
I feel like this has happened before and they rally around the skate highs and the slip ons and like people remember why they love vans and like, I will always have vans in my closet. I, I'll acknowledge right now the quality isn't great, but I will always have vans. There's just something, it means a lot to me.
We talk a lot about brands that actually you care about or that I, you identify with. That's, for me, that's vans. Like there's just something more than any other thing of apparel or footwear or anything I own.
I feel like when I put on a pair of Vans, I'm making a kind of a statement like, hey, yeah, maybe my 40s, but I still surf or whatever it is, you know, and, or it's a slight connection to like a beach vibe that I, that I, that I want. I, I think it's a huge mistake they've ever even bothered to go into any other category.
I mean, I don't know why they tinkered around with like, I forget what they're called, but their, their line of.
Colin
00:39:44.556 - 00:39:46.564
Like hiking and they got trail runners coming up, buddy.
Justin
00:39:46.612 - 00:39:59.108
I just don't, I saw that. I, I don't see the point. I mean, I feel like I would just double down. Oh, it's like my canvas shoes and just, and just, and just own what you are.
I mean like, I, I, I just love, I love, I think the checkerboard thing is brilliant. Like, I just love them and I always will.
Eoin
00:39:59.164 - 00:40:14.862
I think van's just a classic example of that sort of corporate overlord driving growth at all costs and which drives expansion into categories they shouldn't be in and then ultimately dilutes the overall brand and kills the golden goose. I don't know if vans can be killed though.
Colin
00:40:14.966 - 00:40:25.214
At least they can't. No to your point. I've got a pair of vans. I wore out the dinner last week. I mean, they're like a pair of Timberland yellow boots.
I don't know what Chuck Taylor's that will be in your closet.
Producer Dave
00:40:25.262 - 00:40:27.198
Chuck Taylor and converse with him.
Colin
00:40:27.254 - 00:40:28.942
Chuck Taylor's the same thing in the.
Producer Dave
00:40:28.966 - 00:40:32.910
Sense of the American closet. They're part of a youth wardrobe. Right?
Colin
00:40:32.950 - 00:40:33.486
They're in the Kidding.
Producer Dave
00:40:33.518 - 00:40:56.110
Denim is part of the youth wardrobe. A T shirt is the youth wardrobe. I would say that the vulcanized shoe rather it be a Vans or A Converse fit into that same thing.
You could probably argue that fleece tops start to fit into that kind of too. Right. So that's why they're not going to go away. They're going to ebb and flow for sure. But it's just. It's part of the youth uniform.
Justin
00:40:56.770 - 00:41:32.884
I don't know what I would replace it with. Like that's like. As I'm sitting here thinking about it, I. I have some shoes from. It's not Ultra, but it sounds like Ultra starts with an A. Astral.
That. Yes. Thank you. Some Astral, some Astro. Some black Astral high tops that look a little bit like skate highs. And I'll wear though I wear them.
I love them. They're waterproof. They're way better shoe than my Van Skate eyes. That might be what I would end up replacing them with.
But like there's not a replacement in my culture. In my culture there's not a replacement for vans. There's nothing else I could buy that would be like.
Well, vans isn't around so I mean maybe simple shoes comes back in a bigger way around.
Colin
00:41:33.012 - 00:41:43.680
Simple airwalks would be. Even then. Even then you would still have a pair of slip on vans. I mean vans. Vans will. A pair of like slip on checker vans will never be zombies.
They will never get to that point.
Producer Dave
00:41:43.980 - 00:41:52.116
Is that are they are. Does that. Do they become a zombie? Just in a different way. They're the faster kind of Generation Z zombie.
Colin
00:41:52.228 - 00:41:53.780
They're the 28 days later.
Producer Dave
00:41:53.900 - 00:41:56.852
They're the fast zombie. They're not going to lump around.
Eoin
00:41:56.956 - 00:41:58.116
They're not the plotting zombies.
Producer Dave
00:41:58.148 - 00:42:04.354
But yeah, but they're there and they're everywhere and they don't die. I mean one could say Dr. Martins fits into that as well.
Eoin
00:42:04.522 - 00:42:04.962
Whoa.
Colin
00:42:05.026 - 00:42:10.578
Well, speaking of zombies, we have reached the zombie category. I don't. I'm not sure much time we want to spend on talking about zombies.
Justin
00:42:10.674 - 00:42:12.722
Zombies. Zombies is the most fun.
Producer Dave
00:42:12.906 - 00:42:13.458
Yeah.
Colin
00:42:13.554 - 00:42:18.002
So we have Muck, Boot Hunter, Boot Sanuk, Chaco.
Justin
00:42:18.066 - 00:42:19.090
I thought they were gone.
Colin
00:42:19.170 - 00:42:32.570
No, they got sold Zamberlin and well, Vasque. Vasquez gone. Vasquez gone. Yeah. But I think we just want to give. I think I want to give them as an. As a. As an example of like. Yeah, ven.
Eventually you can die. It can happen.
Eoin
00:42:33.030 - 00:42:39.678
Cause Asuka was absolutely a zombie brand and somebody actually put the bullet in the head. Yeah, that's.
Producer Dave
00:42:39.774 - 00:42:58.712
They've said that they reported it but there's no proof. It's not fully dead yet. I don't believe it. They've said so, but I just don't believe it.
Some reanimator is going to scoop that right up and bring it back. I guarantee you're going to see Vasquez at Walmart. No doubt about.
Eoin
00:42:58.816 - 00:43:05.336
Right next to. They're gonna challenge high tech at Big five. They're gonna. Right there next to the. And one shoes.
Producer Dave
00:43:05.448 - 00:43:08.340
That's right. And one in Avia. You bet.
Justin
00:43:08.960 - 00:43:51.060
See I would, I would actually if I saw. No, I wouldn't because I would know what they were. I know they're just labeled and they're and they. And they suck.
But if I saw a pair of Vasques, cheap, cheap Vasques at some. In some newfangled way, I'd almost have to try it out of nostalgia kinda. I mean I've really, I've really enjoyed the Vasques that I've had.
Dude, I have like an anniversary. I was just putting away my winter boots for my Yosemite trip and I have this.
It was like a one off they made a few years ago when everybody was making like a retro version of like the brands that had been around for a while were making like suede retro versions of shoes they sold in the 90s or whatever. And like I have the one pair of asks I'll always keep are going to be these ones from them and they're. They feel great.
They got big luggy Vibram soles. They look awesome. They're so much better quality than anything else I'd seen from Basque for a while.
Producer Dave
00:43:51.100 - 00:43:55.806
Dude, these, these new ones are going to be pleather Vasque with, with Bibram.
Eoin
00:43:55.838 - 00:43:57.198
I get to get outsole. That's right.
Producer Dave
00:43:57.254 - 00:44:00.046
That's right there. Exactly.
Colin
00:44:00.238 - 00:44:04.510
It'll just be a, you know a, a yellow like octagon at the bottom with no name in it.
Eoin
00:44:04.550 - 00:44:05.130
Right?
Colin
00:44:05.750 - 00:44:25.634
Yeah, that's right on the zombie list. So I think the only. We've talked about Vasque even though they're. They're the dead ones here. I mean Chaco's probably the one to talk about.
We've had some fun at Chaco's expense, but they're one where I of this list. They can make a real case for making the list because that they definitely pass the. Are you gonna carry Chacos in your outdoor store?
But they are absolutely.
Producer Dave
00:44:25.742 - 00:44:30.430
I go back. Does Teppa fit in the same boat? Are they in the same boat as Chaco?
Colin
00:44:30.770 - 00:44:31.498
100%.
Producer Dave
00:44:31.554 - 00:44:31.818
Right.
Colin
00:44:31.874 - 00:44:34.074
And it's maybe, I mean but actually.
Eoin
00:44:34.242 - 00:44:35.162
Cooler in some ways.
Colin
00:44:35.226 - 00:44:39.990
Teppa might be more Steady Eddie because they're Kind of just like, you know, a lot of kids will just wear Teva now.
Eoin
00:44:40.370 - 00:44:46.794
They've actually had some change to the. To the shoe and the footbed and other things within the last decade.
Colin
00:44:46.922 - 00:44:47.258
Right.
Eoin
00:44:47.314 - 00:45:09.170
With the smush stuff that they've got going on. Chaco, like, the biggest innovation that Chaco had in the last decade was you could buy optional packages of different straps.
So you could change out the colors of your. Of your Chacos. That would. That was. Which I. I like that. I like that. But, man, they are the chunky Chocos.
Producer Dave
00:45:09.250 - 00:45:15.010
I don't know. That might. Next to the Grateful Dead licensing partnership. I suppose that would be the innovation.
Justin
00:45:15.090 - 00:45:21.470
Dude, if I could buy multiple colored straps for my bedrocks, they were. They were. It was possible to swap them out. I would do that all the time.
Colin
00:45:22.510 - 00:45:23.494
No, you wouldn't.
Eoin
00:45:23.542 - 00:45:24.134
Yeah, I would.
Colin
00:45:24.222 - 00:45:26.054
You like to think you would, but I don't think you would do it.
Eoin
00:45:26.062 - 00:45:33.942
Oh, dude, you. Well, maybe you're right. You might be right about that. If I didn't have kids, I would do. If I had five minutes of spare time a day, I would do it.
Colin
00:45:33.966 - 00:45:42.854
All right, I'm gonna make Choco yellow. They have to be considered for our final list. But everybody else on this list is red. Is it any.
Oh, and anything you want to mention about, like, muck boot or hunter boot, like those brands?
Eoin
00:45:42.902 - 00:46:00.050
Well, I mean, it's just that they're a hunter. Yes. Went bankrupt last year. And that they're.
Yeah, they're bought by authentic brands, which is almost the definition of a zombie brand, is when you're bought by authentic brands. I think that is the definition. That's amazing.
Colin
00:46:00.210 - 00:46:02.750
It's the biohazard logo is what they have.
Eoin
00:46:04.490 - 00:46:20.082
Authentic brands, actually, in fairness, they are the regenerators. Right. They've got the paddles and the serum that they pump into these brands and defibrillator and. Right. And then keep the brand going.
You know, like the whole board riders thing and all the rest of it.
Producer Dave
00:46:20.106 - 00:46:20.730
I mean.
Eoin
00:46:20.890 - 00:46:31.066
Yeah, they specialize in this category. In fact, I'm surprised they weren't the ones to buy Sanuk. Maybe the price wasn't quite cheap enough.
Colin
00:46:31.138 - 00:46:47.722
All right, Justin, Not a lot of boots on this list, and you are a boot aficionado. Zamberlin made the list, though.
So talk for a bit about Zamberlins and the boots that you would maybe like to see included or where do boots actually fit into this list? They feel kind of steady. Eddie. Ish at best, don't you think?
Justin
00:46:47.826 - 00:47:43.934
Yeah, yeah, but. But again, like, they're I mean, boots are never going to go away.
I mean, boots obviously have a place for like, serious mountaineering activities and things like that that you can't replace with trail runners. So obviously there's. And there's always going to be. I, I don't know. I. This is probably isn't true.
I just feel like there's always going to be enough people like me out there who would rather wear a boot than a trail runner anyway to keep them going. I mean, I just don't get excited. We talked a million times before about opening a new box of trail runners. I just don't care.
I'm over here the other day, like, polishing up some of my full leather, full grain leather boots, you know, like, oh, I'm not gonna wear these again this year. I'm gonna put these in a nice little box and just like, you know, because I'm gonna have them forever and I love them so much.
And like, I've had this pair of Zamberlins for a year. I haven't used them yet, and I use them this last week. Oh, God, they're amazing.
They're just so much better than like any other shoe I would wear to do anything. You know, I had my daughters with me, didn't wear them once. You know, they were great on the snow, they were great on ice.
They were great just walking around like, God, and they're beautiful and they just feel good and like, like.
Producer Dave
00:47:44.102 - 00:47:50.334
All right, send your, send your, send your trail mix recipes to Justin Houseman at Rock.
Justin
00:47:50.462 - 00:47:55.806
I just, I just love boot. I just love. I just don't feel. I just love boots. I just love them. I just, I'll never love.
Colin
00:47:55.878 - 00:48:05.022
No, I think you're, what you're describing though is they're not going to die. They'll never. Like, most of these boot brands won't become zombie brands, but they won't ascend to it brands, right?
And, and they're a complete necessity.
Producer Dave
00:48:05.166 - 00:48:08.590
We thought the same thing about Vasque. Like, what the heck?
Colin
00:48:08.670 - 00:48:13.246
All right, that's a good point. They had the freaking Sundowner and they became a zombie brand. I take it back. Never mind.
Eoin
00:48:13.318 - 00:49:14.764
Good point, Dave.
I just don't feel like there's, there's not room to be in it brand. Like, there's only so much innovation you can do in a boot, right? Like, so it's gonna be an iterative change all the time.
And so, like, to me, it's like Scarpa. Scarpa's quality for me is off the chain. I, I love Scarpa's Pretty solid. Yeah. As far as these. These are concerned, these are phenomenal shoes.
I mean, like, what. But what are they gonna do? They can't really make them that much lighter. They can't really do a whole lot. So they're never going to be sexy unless.
Unless cultural shifts like change, you know.
I do think that they're. I mean, San Berlin, they make a beautiful product. Handmade in Italy. Just wonderful boot. As are. As are many of these Scarpa.
We haven't even talked about La Sportiva. They probably deserve a mention on here somewhere. Sure. There's, there's. There are so many great hiking boots out there.
I think the challenge from a retailer, again, if I'm getting back to opening the retail store conversation, is I can't really fit 5, 6 hiking boot brands in my store.
Colin
00:49:14.812 - 00:49:15.596
You're gonna pick one?
Eoin
00:49:15.668 - 00:49:45.576
Yeah. What would you have if you were gonna have a boot brand?
Well, you'd have to have something that's more entry level. So you're gonna have to probably go with. With like a Moab or a Targie, you know, just for the person just coming in off the street.
And then, and then one or two high end, you know, boots or brands. So an Oboe's. And then maybe depending upon where you live in the customer base, maybe you do have a Zamblin or somebody, something like for that.
Really? That's tough. You gotta hopefully move some of those to make it worthwhile to be in your store.
Colin
00:49:45.688 - 00:50:22.530
All right, guys, here's where we've gotten to. We have four that are green. We have on Hoka, Birkenstock and Oboz are green. And then we have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. We have eight yellows.
We have New Balance, Toppo, Norda, Ufos, Marro, Keen, Ultra, and Chaco. So do we like our greens? Do we want to. Is anybody. We want to move to yellow as we create our final list.
Do we feel like those four, they're auto in and we're really just talking about the final spot. Let's start there. Dave, why don't. What do you think we have on Hoka, Birkensak and Oboz as our greens?
Producer Dave
00:50:22.870 - 00:50:29.774
I think the question is, do you look at a brand like a Norda or an UFOS that are clearly trending up quickly?
Justin
00:50:29.902 - 00:50:35.582
Yeah, yeah, that's. I want to put Norda on here. That's the only one I would add to the green, I think.
Colin
00:50:35.766 - 00:50:39.364
Okay. HOKA versus On. Do we need both of them or should we pick one or the other?
Eoin
00:50:39.502 - 00:50:40.360
Oh, you can.
Producer Dave
00:50:40.480 - 00:50:42.968
Oh, can't have both.
Eoin
00:50:43.024 - 00:50:43.384
No.
Producer Dave
00:50:43.472 - 00:50:50.380
How can you not have both in a discussion of footwear? But I love doing it just for that purpose.
Colin
00:50:51.760 - 00:50:57.288
All right, well, that means Hoka. I'm adding the. I'm writing it in. It's written in blood. I love the idea.
Justin
00:50:57.464 - 00:51:04.340
I love the lens of. I'm a store owner and I'm stalking one. I would probably pick Hoka over on, I think.
Producer Dave
00:51:04.960 - 00:51:06.242
Yeah. Yes.
Eoin
00:51:06.306 - 00:51:09.618
But you could probably. Because you could have Hoka and Norda in the same store, I think.
Colin
00:51:09.674 - 00:51:16.386
Well, and if you have Birkenstock, I think that takes UFOS and Chaco out. You've. You kind of have a sandal.
Eoin
00:51:16.578 - 00:51:16.994
Yeah.
Colin
00:51:17.042 - 00:51:19.586
Right. Okay, so, Burke. I'm adding sandal.
Producer Dave
00:51:19.618 - 00:51:24.034
I think is different. I think that you're gonna. You're gonna sell a certain amount.
Colin
00:51:24.162 - 00:51:28.578
We have a weird store where we only carry five different pieces of footwear, so we have to make choices.
Eoin
00:51:28.674 - 00:51:30.818
Birkenstar doesn't make any kind of sports sandal.
Colin
00:51:30.914 - 00:51:33.794
Well, if you don't need to, man, you can go to the gym in them, apparently.
Producer Dave
00:51:33.842 - 00:51:41.054
You know, that's true if you consider concerts a sport. I. I mean, that's kind of.
Eoin
00:51:41.142 - 00:51:42.862
Well, I kind of do kind of.
Producer Dave
00:51:42.886 - 00:51:43.118
Right.
Colin
00:51:43.174 - 00:51:43.454
Let's.
Producer Dave
00:51:43.502 - 00:51:44.690
Especially festivals.
Justin
00:51:45.510 - 00:51:54.702
Yeah. If you're going to, like a Dave Matthews Band show or something at the Shoreline somewhere outdoors, Birkenstocks is a logical choice.
You could walk all day. You can take them off to put.
Producer Dave
00:51:54.726 - 00:51:58.062
Frisbee and watch the methane seep up from the grass.
Colin
00:51:58.126 - 00:52:05.428
Oh, and I need. We need the. The adult in the room. We're going to designate you as that person for the Merrill Keen Oboes conversation. We greened oboes.
Eoin
00:52:05.574 - 00:52:06.088
Yes.
Colin
00:52:06.184 - 00:52:08.020
Is Oboz what you would take?
Eoin
00:52:08.720 - 00:52:19.416
I mean, from a purely sales perspective, it would probably be Merrell just because, I mean, the Moab is the number one hiking boot in the market. Right. It just is.
Producer Dave
00:52:19.568 - 00:52:34.188
And I would even say, based on the conversation we had about what categories are trending of those brands, they're the one most positioned in multiple categories. Like, you can have a Merrell runner, you can have a hiker. You can have a light hiker.
Colin
00:52:34.264 - 00:52:34.548
Yeah.
Eoin
00:52:34.604 - 00:52:34.980
Yeah.
Colin
00:52:35.060 - 00:52:42.148
It makes it really hard not to put Merrell on this list. Part of me really just wants to give it to Oboz, and then we could take it away from them in six months if we don't like where they're going.
Justin
00:52:42.284 - 00:52:44.164
Merrell does kind of make more sense.
Colin
00:52:44.292 - 00:52:52.580
But Merrill probably is still. It's. It's a little like. Not having Merrell would be kind of like taking Hoka off the list in a way. Right. How do you not have Merrill on the list?
Producer Dave
00:52:52.620 - 00:52:54.920
How do you not include Teva in this discussion?
Colin
00:52:55.340 - 00:52:57.080
Well, that's your bugaboo.
Eoin
00:52:58.540 - 00:53:02.340
But believe me, there are so many, there are so many footwear brands like we haven't talked about.
Colin
00:53:02.380 - 00:53:04.516
Justin and I right now are screaming about bedrock, you know.
Producer Dave
00:53:04.588 - 00:53:05.508
Oh yeah, they're the same.
Colin
00:53:05.564 - 00:53:15.120
Let. What if we did Meryl and then we. If. Do we have our sort of up and comer be Nordic?
Because we all seem to really like what Norda was doing to me from this list.
Eoin
00:53:15.160 - 00:53:32.160
To me, I would, I don't think there's a, I don't think anything else would challenge it for the, for like the potential.
If you want, if you want to have it. If you want to have a sort of the, if we're going relegation type thing. Like, I think Norda is, is, is the promotion potentially. They're definitely getting promoted.
Colin
00:53:32.320 - 00:53:33.200
Right. And then like.
Eoin
00:53:33.240 - 00:53:35.072
Yeah, I forgot about the whole.
Producer Dave
00:53:35.256 - 00:53:43.200
I think the list next to this needs to be the brand. So right next to who are the top five downward trending brands?
Eoin
00:53:43.540 - 00:53:46.796
There you go. Yeah, who's. Yeah, who's. Who's. Who's going. These guys are up.
Producer Dave
00:53:46.948 - 00:53:48.956
Who's going down? Who's next? Who's going?
Colin
00:53:49.028 - 00:53:55.196
Okay, so our top five lists we have is Hoka on running Birkenstock, Merrill and Nordic.
Producer Dave
00:53:55.228 - 00:53:55.756
Okay.
Colin
00:53:55.868 - 00:53:57.436
How does that list feel to everybody?
Eoin
00:53:57.548 - 00:53:58.396
I'm okay with it.
Colin
00:53:58.468 - 00:53:59.680
A lot of trepidation.
Justin
00:54:00.020 - 00:54:02.780
I'm just not a giant Merrill fan, but I'm okay with it.
Colin
00:54:02.900 - 00:54:10.856
I'm not either, but I think it makes sense. Yeah, I would definitely put in Oboe's if I was making my personal list. But in terms of like going off of these. Owen?
Eoin
00:54:10.968 - 00:54:31.624
Yeah, Yeah, I think so. I mean, it gets back to the whole definition of what the it brand here is. But yes, I think those, those would be.
And I think Merrell is going to be back on the upswing here. I think that they're, they're doing a lot of the right things in terms of supply chain and cutting back on hand and inventory and.
Producer Dave
00:54:31.792 - 00:54:32.280
Yeah.
Colin
00:54:32.360 - 00:54:33.880
Dave, you okay with the list?
Producer Dave
00:54:34.000 - 00:54:49.058
I think that sums it up. I'm okay. I think there's an intellectual reason for Merrill, but.
But I'm not totally convinced that they'll pull it off for obvious, you know, mothership reasons. But let's, let's see.
Eoin
00:54:49.194 - 00:54:57.026
And yeah, just because the brand isn't in this top five doesn't mean it isn't a great brand. It just isn't like the that's exactly what brand means.
Producer Dave
00:54:57.098 - 00:55:01.026
Yeah, no, no, it's absolutely. It means they're clearly lacking in some kind of moral.
Colin
00:55:01.138 - 00:55:12.908
Just close up shop now, people. The rock fight. Half spoken. Right, last thing. Who's everybody's sleeper pick for who could become the next IT brand on this list?
Who's your sleeper pick?
Justin
00:55:12.964 - 00:55:14.460
Norda, for me, no doubt.
Producer Dave
00:55:14.620 - 00:55:21.400
Mine's not on this list, but I am going to put my finger on acg. I think.
Colin
00:55:21.860 - 00:55:22.380
Wow.
Producer Dave
00:55:22.460 - 00:55:57.418
I think acg, I think that Nike's. They're going to return to their kind of core basics. I think ACG will get moved into some focus. It has the retro heritage.
They're clearly good at contemporary style. They. They have a performance kind of credibility they just haven't leaned into.
And I think if that, if they get, if they get part of that kind of Nike refocus, I think they could. I, I don't. It's not right now and I don't even know if it's on their main radar as the first priorities of categories, but I hope you're right.
Eoin
00:55:57.474 - 00:55:58.310
Pretty strong.
Producer Dave
00:55:58.770 - 00:56:02.186
Pretty strong category that I think they could see some success in.
Colin
00:56:02.258 - 00:56:04.310
So, Owen, who's your sleeper pick?
Eoin
00:56:05.010 - 00:56:15.050
Wow. It's tough. I mean, based upon personal experience, I would say tread labs.
I really like what they're doing, but in terms of what I'm hearing in the market and overall buzz, I would have to give it to Norda.
Colin
00:56:15.130 - 00:56:18.330
I'm going Topo. I think we're already seeing it. It might actually be.
Eoin
00:56:18.370 - 00:56:18.666
Not.
Colin
00:56:18.738 - 00:58:03.404
It might be. You could question if you should even call it a sleeper, but I think Nord is going to get there for sure.
They're going to become important, but they're also really expensive and I understand that the trail running category that is becoming more palatable to have more expensive models, but I think Topo is going to just eat Altra's lunch for the next 12 months.
Because even if Altra writes the shift, so to speak, and some of the issues they've had and they start listening to their retailers and things like that, it's going to be a minute because you know how these cycles work and Topo is slowly creeping up and it's. So they're going to have a nice run here, I think, and then who knows how it all shakes out. I do agree on Norda, though.
I think, I think that is the, that that might be the next big trail running brand and maybe they eventually add a lower cost model or something like that and kind of expand their offering. But. All right, well, we got our list hoka on running Birkenstock, Merrill and Norda. So let's wrap it up there, guys. Hey everybody listening to this?
Come back on Wednesday when Justin and I will be running through headlines to come out of the outdoor adventure community. Bunch of interesting stories that came out during the holidays. Can't wait for that.
Also, come back on Friday to hear my conversation with Owen's biggest competitor for insider of the outdoor industry, Matt Powell. And we want your emails. We want your emails, especially about this episode.
So please reach out, tell us what we missed, tell us what you want to hear on these types of episodes going forward. Send that feedback to myrockflight mail.com the Rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight LLC, our producer today. Producer David Karstad.
Art direction provided by Sarah I think I got it working. Gensert for Justin Houseman and Owen Comerford, I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And like always, he's back to take us out. It's Chris Demaik.
He's here to sing the rock fight fight song. We'll see you next time, rock fighters.
Producer Dave
00:58:03.452 - 00:58:05.200
All complaints go to Colin True.
Eoin
00:58:07.540 - 00:58:11.228
If it comes down to it, I'm doxing. Colin. That's just it. It's. That's.
Chris DeMakes
00:58:11.324 - 00:59:07.960
Oh D.
Rock fight, Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fighting to the rock fight where we speak our truth Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree we talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, me music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head this is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth.
Rock fight Rock flight Rock fight welcome to the rock fight Rock fight Rock fight welcome to the rock flight Rock flight Rock fight Rock flight Rock flight, rock flight welcome to the rock fight Rock fight Rock fight.
Colin
00:59:10.420 - 00:59:11.060
Rock fight.