What better way to start your week then by entering The Rock Fight for the best outdoor industry commentary you'll find anywhere?!
Today Colin is joined by Monday regulars Eoin Comerford and Producer Dave and they break down the following topics:
After being acquired by Kontoor Brands last month, Helly Hansen has announced their intention to make a meaningful push into the United States' outdoor market. After announcing Helly's intentions, Kontoor CEO Scott Baxter said "Get ready, this is going to be fun." Points to Kontoor for the smack talk. (04:55)
TJX announced last week that Sierra will be adding 20 new doors in 2025 with their long term plan to have as many as 325 locations. Is this growth plan a sign that Sierra could become outdoor's most dominant US retailer? (17:55)
Lastly for The Parting Shot, Colin begs all would-be outdoor pundits to simple leave The North Face alone! (31:59)
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Episode Transcript
Open Container!
00:00:00.080 - 00:01:03.000
The outdoors is not a niche. It's way bigger than that. The outdoors is essential to our lives, essential to who we are as a species.
And as the world continues to get smaller, as new advances in technology push us to the limits of the planet, the outdoors is more important than ever. Open Container is here to explore this new idea of the outdoors.
We'll strive to uncover stories about creativity, adventure, conservation, politics, and the people who make the outdoor space so vibrant. The world is full of anxiety right now. Climate change, politics, cultural upheaval. But fear not, there are answers in the outdoors.
I'm Doug Schnitzpahn and on this show we will talk to people who are looking to nature to find the solutions we all need.
We will be having honest conversations about how the outdoors can change us, how it heals us, how we learn from it, and how we can build a better world from what we learn about being outdoors. So please join us, open the container and find out what's inside. Let's get some.
Colin True
00:01:08.020 - 00:02:29.312
Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True, and today we're kicking off your week with a bunch of outdoor industry commentary.
But before we get to any of that, come back to the Rock Fight this Wednesday when outdoor journalist Justin Hausman and I will be talking about the latest headlines to come out of the outdoor adventure community. What topics will we be discussing? I don't really know yet. You'll have to come back to find out.
But also come back to the show on Friday where Patagonia will be here. They're here to return fire at the Rock Fight regarding last week's assertion that they are not leading the industry.
In the case of pfas, you're not going to want to miss that one. And lastly, it's time for you, the listener of the Rock Fight, to subscribe.
You need to subscribe to the show where all you need to do is tap the Follow button on whatever podcast app you are listening to us on and also subscribe to News from the Front, Rock Fight's weekly newsletter that comes out tomorrow. So head to Rock Fight Co and sign up now. And all right, stick around. We'll be right back. You're listening to Rock Fight Radio.
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FITS!
00:02:29.376 - 00:03:39.384
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Colin True
00:03:39.512 - 00:03:54.204
And now back to the show. All right, producer Dave heads everywhere are now rejoicing because he has overcome the dreaded Denver virus.
He's back on the rock fight along with outdoor Industry insider and rock Fight Consiglieri, Owen Comerford. What's going on, boys?
Eoin Comerford
00:03:54.392 - 00:03:54.804
Hello.
Producer Dave
00:03:54.852 - 00:03:55.076
Hello.
Eoin Comerford
00:03:55.108 - 00:03:55.860
How's it going?
Producer Dave
00:03:55.980 - 00:03:58.900
Rumors of my demise are vastly overstated.
Colin True
00:03:59.060 - 00:04:04.836
Yeah, I feel like I dodged a bullet. I hung out with you. You know, we were pretty close for three or four days there. I don't know how.
Producer Dave
00:04:04.908 - 00:04:05.960
It was brutal.
Eoin Comerford
00:04:06.380 - 00:04:08.324
Are we talking like 104 degree temps.
Producer Dave
00:04:08.372 - 00:04:16.324
Or like, out for three days straight down, like, no movement? Yeah. Happy to be back. Happy to be back.
Colin True
00:04:16.492 - 00:04:25.110
And it's a sad day in the Comerford household because he's headed back north this. This past by time. You listen to this, I think he'll be entering the state of Michigan, leaving Key Largo behind.
Eoin Comerford
00:04:25.410 - 00:04:36.670
Probably by the time I'll. I'll be on the second day of the drive, so probably. Probably some. Somewhere in the. In the. In the mountains just north of Knoxville, Tennessee.
Colin True
00:04:37.250 - 00:04:41.670
Have you been looking at the forecast for next week? Are you avoiding seeing what's going on in Michigan right now?
Eoin Comerford
00:04:41.970 - 00:04:54.980
It's actually not bad. I think we're talking 40s, positively balmy up there.
Yeah, no, we missed the, like, the 10 degrees weather, so, hey, it's all good, you know, That's a win.
Colin True
00:04:55.680 - 00:06:18.870
All right, guys, well, let's get into it. So first thing we're going to do today, first of all, today's opening shot.
The first thing we're going to talk about today, you know, it's presented by Garage Grown Gear, which is your hub for ultralight gear.
Learn more about Garage Grown Gear by heading to garagegrown gear.com and to start things off today, we're going to follow up in a story that Owen and I spoke about last week here on the Rock Fight.
Contour CEO Scott Baxter commented this week on their new on Contour brand's new acquisition, Helly Hansen and Scott Baxter said that they are poised to make a meaningful push into the US Outdoor market. This is per a article that was on Shop Eat Surf Outdoor.
Scott Baxter cited a lack of category innovation along with Contour supply chain expertise as the reasons why heli could disrupt the status quo. He ended the article. Well, the article ended with him being quoted as saying, get ready, this is going to be fun.
I mean, first of all, I love the competitiveness here. I love the drive and the shot across the bow to the status quo for what?
You know, I think a lot of people, including ourselves, have accused the outdoor industry for often being boring. So a little bit of like, hey, we're coming for you is is awesome.
I guess my question is to kind of kick off the conversation is, okay, you know, what are you coming with? Like, what can Ellie Hansen do to actually disrupt things? Are we talking about product?
Is it more nuanced, like, and more on reliable delivery or pricing? You know, Owen, let's start with you. What what can hel do to deliver on this? Or is it just good theater?
Eoin Comerford
00:06:19.530 - 00:06:27.810
First of all, it's great theater. I mean, the fact that he's quoted as saying, get ready, this is going to be fun. You know, he's just a week after.
Colin True
00:06:27.850 - 00:06:30.386
He was quoted as being like, fuck you, V.F.
Eoin Comerford
00:06:30.578 - 00:06:31.154
Yeah, exactly.
Colin True
00:06:31.202 - 00:06:33.026
I mean, I wasn't quoted as saying that. That's my quote.
Eoin Comerford
00:06:33.058 - 00:08:12.150
But you know what I mean, you're paraphrasing. I'm paraphrasing. But yeah, they're going to love it here.
Yeah, I mean, I think there's definitely upside for the brand in the US they're about $100 million in the US according to versus 400 million in Europe and in total about 650 million. And they've actually grown the Canadian market to 100 million. And the Canadian market is what, a fifth of the US market.
It's relatively small, so there's definitely upside. Now, part of the Canada thing is that obviously they're in Canada Tire, which is the biggest retailer in Canada. So that's an aspect to it.
But still, yes, there's definite upside. And I think one of the things is that Baxter and the contour people realize is that you have to really drive demand. Right.
It's about creating the demand engine for the brand. And the reality is that Heli is not that well known in the US market, right.
When people start listing off all of the top outdoor brands, Heli probably doesn't come into the conversation until number 10 or number 20. I mean, I don't know. Right. But it has all of the aspects, it has all the product, it has the technology, all the things.
It really just needs more that mindshare.
And so I think what we're going to see is we're going to see a major marketing push behind the brand sponsorships, Times Square billboards, yada yada, right?
I mean really trying to push it out there to, to, to take some of that mind share as a premium top of the mountain brand that, that can really go after the, the north faces and the Patagonias of the world.
Colin True
00:08:12.580 - 00:08:39.100
Dave, when you and I spoke about, you know, when MIA made their announcement that they're going to push into the US market this past fall and we went through like all the European brands that have tried or want to try and stuff like that, and a big point you kept coming back to is, you know, a lack of advertising, kind of a little bit of a lack of what Owen was just talking about, right?
So just based off of that alone, if they invested from you, given on your, your brand background, if they just said took their current product line and just even advertised in a meaningful way like what do you think they could expect?
Producer Dave
00:08:39.220 - 00:09:57.996
Well, I think two things here is one is the relatively still unknown aspect of Helly Hansen. So they've got a chance to kind of fill this space with their current kind of position. And that current position is it's unique in its own right.
I mean most brands come to the outdoor through alpinism or kind of the backcountry. Right. Kind of idea. They're coming at it through, let's call it arctic work, right?
This idea of this proving ground of the ultimate kind of conditions that create this bed of innovation, that alone is unique.
So if they were to lean in and promote that as their kind of truth as to being in the outdoor that's already distinct from everybody else in the playing field and that's going to create for some really powerful emotional, I mean they do a good job anyway of it. I think Heli's been one of the better branded elements of outdoor and work kind of crossover pieces for a long time.
I've seen Heli as a great opportunity for 20 years, frankly, in terms of underexposed, uniquely positioned, badass product, I mean, that's the. It's a really great combination of attributes, really, to go after this larger outdoorness.
Colin True
00:09:58.188 - 00:10:10.514
For an industry that just prides itself on authenticity and being the authentic one and being the sort of the original. They're 150 years old, nearly 150 years old. They can make claims that nobody else can.
Producer Dave
00:10:10.602 - 00:11:22.840
Well, there's also too. Just when you're talking about performance wear, like you said, there's authenticity, but there's also capability.
And so many of our outdoor brands want to go lifestyle and they want people in T shirts and hats and kind of shorts and show this easiness. And that's a big piece of the business. But if you're not rooted in some form of, like, badass capability, it's hard to build. It's almost.
It's our athletic performance metrics, right? And if you look at outdoor, it's kind of founded on three base capability principles. One, like I said, is alpinism.
The second is work working outside the durability, the aspect of that piece, and I'll put the third is really kind of military, right? The ultimate backcountry experience is the military. And if you add those three together, that's kind of a credibility foundation.
And heli already hits those in these ways.
But doing it in this even more extreme way, which is this northern Arctic, you know, plus the water aspect to it really brings a unique angle to the brand. I just, I think they're ideally suited to tell emotional storytelling based on rational kind of credibility.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:23.420 - 00:12:53.622
I think the other thing to mention here is that they're not just some European brand coming into the US Market trying to figure it out and trying to figure out how to market in the US Contra does that, right? They have major national brands in Wrangler and Lee now, different target audience, okay? But they have that muscle. They know where to push.
There's an engine in place to get that. Exactly. And so they just, they. They want to really feed this into that engine. They have the brand, they have the product.
It's now getting the story, getting it out there into the right people.
Because they know, right, that in order to be successful at retail, in wholesale, what have you, you have to create that top of the funnel so that when the consumer walks into their, whatever, their local rei, their local specialty store, and they see two different shells, one from the North Face with five different shells, right? They see that heli one and they go, okay, I know that shit's going to work. And yes, it's $400 or whatever it is. It's not an inexpensive piece of kit.
But I've seen the product story. I get the whole Nordic thing. This thing has been built and developed for the last 150 years. It's going to work and it's going to be worth my dollars.
And when I go outside and somebody sees me with the iconic HH logo on my chest, they know that I know my shit. And I bought a product that really is worth my dollars.
Producer Dave
00:12:53.686 - 00:13:29.762
And to that point, they can play with that story. They can play in work, they can play in outdoor, classic outdoor, they can play in lifestyle, they can play in deck.
They could turn this into a preppy boat brand if they wanted to based off of this. I mean, there's just so many different ways they can go. And like you said, these stories, I mean, this is the.
And we've talked a little bit about this, Colin. When we were doing research, they invented fleece. I was ask really get credit for that now.
It was a tougher version of it that wasn't as soft and silky as the double sided velour, but still it.
Colin True
00:13:29.786 - 00:13:31.778
Was like they've added polypro too.
Producer Dave
00:13:31.834 - 00:13:39.970
Yeah, right. And it's just like. So there's some real storytelling that can go on that can move them in all sorts of categories if they decide to play there.
Colin True
00:13:40.010 - 00:14:19.170
Well, and to that point. Right, so Baxter mentions innovation specifically, which, contrary to popular belief, sustainability isn't the most overused in the outdoors.
It's innovation. Everyone talks about innovation and no one's really innovating anymore. So it's truly the opportunity. Opportunity.
I mean, everything you guys just laid out makes a ton of sense.
And if they do it right and put a little money behind it, which sounds like they have, they have the expertise, they have the resources, probably with, with what they have now, they can make a meaningful, you know, inroads to the outdoor Marketplace in the U.S. is there a path to innovation? Is that just good, you know, copy?
Like, hey, we're going to focus on innovation because I mean, I don't, I think they're, they're in the same position as everybody else is. Like, where is the innovate? What it is left to innovate when it comes to outdoor apparel anymore?
Eoin Comerford
00:14:19.880 - 00:15:05.340
I think they have a lot of actually proprietary fabrics and materials that they can leverage and continue to innovate within that. So Leafa is this internal brand. So Leafa Loft is, I believe, what they use for their insulation.
They've also got Leafa, which is part of their synthetic base layer technology. I have it, love it, it's really great product. And then they've also got Helitech, which is their two layer technology.
So they definitely have all pieces and they perform very well.
And I think they were really lean into those almost sub brands to create that, that technology innovation umbrella for the, for the, for the consumer to understand the value, I guess.
Colin True
00:15:05.380 - 00:15:12.040
Last thing, Dave, is if you were managing the product launch at like REI with Helly Hansen, would you bring the band Hanson out to perform?
Producer Dave
00:15:13.540 - 00:15:15.440
No. Arctic Monkeys.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:16.660 - 00:15:18.044
Ah, much better.
Colin True
00:15:18.132 - 00:15:19.612
That's much better. That's a good one.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:19.636 - 00:15:20.172
Yeah.
Colin True
00:15:20.316 - 00:15:57.114
No, I think that's an interesting point. I mean everything you just mentioned, Owen too is the wrapping it back into the storytelling. Right. And just creating.
These are words that a lot of people aren't familiar with.
These are, you know, if the, if this is where ingredients and internal kind of product naming conventions can work for you, even if on a, you know, side by side basis, they work roughly the same as a lot of other things that are out there. But this is all relatively new to this space.
They really are positioned in a way that many of the other brands who have tried to kind of break into our space, meaning the US space is going to struggle with. They don't have the resources to kind of put behind a real strong push into this market.
Producer Dave
00:15:57.202 - 00:16:40.426
You know, they've been here for a long time. They've had a North American headquarters in Seattle. It's not like they're just completely new to this.
They've been doing it a while and it's been ownership restraints and kind of like keeping them from like full on focus of growth. So yeah, they're kind of like already starting with a head start. Then you put the new ownership on that.
Both has the skill set and the desire to grow and I think they're going to be able to unleash them in a way that they just haven't been before, you know. And being from Norway, you know, frankly they probably want to keep their old Canadian ownership.
That would be a potent combination to take out there. Canada plus Norway seems to be the new, the new allyship there in terms of resisting oppression in the world.
Colin True
00:16:40.498 - 00:16:43.722
So where's that oppression coming from? I'm not sure.
Producer Dave
00:16:43.746 - 00:16:45.790
I've heard somewhere to the east.
Colin True
00:16:47.350 - 00:16:49.810
Hey wait, Owen, you're in the east?
Eoin Comerford
00:16:50.550 - 00:16:56.370
I don't know. Is it the 9th province? The 10th province?
Producer Dave
00:16:57.590 - 00:16:58.606
Yes, yes.
Colin True
00:16:58.718 - 00:17:01.410
Is that what Mar A Lago is? Is the 10th province.
Eoin Comerford
00:17:03.430 - 00:17:04.730
The United States?
Producer Dave
00:17:05.110 - 00:17:05.970
Yeah.
Colin True
00:17:06.390 - 00:17:14.808
Like I mentioned that part of the podcast brought to you by Garage Grown Gear, who wants to remind you that ultralight backpacking, it isn't all about deprivation, suffering and pain.
Eoin Comerford
00:17:14.984 - 00:17:16.540
Those are just the best parts.
Colin True
00:17:17.120 - 00:17:40.014
Seriously, a little dark copy of the day from our friends at ggg. There's been so much innovation lately to use that word again to lighten up gear that keeps you comfortable in the backcountry.
And Garage Grown Gear is a great place to find that innovation.
From ultralight air pumps that inflate your sleeping pad, to comfy inflatable pillows, to even camp chairs that are under a, under a pound for a camp chair. Every time I read one of these, there's always something that makes me pause and go, that's awesome.
Eoin Comerford
00:17:40.032 - 00:17:40.450
Awesome.
Colin True
00:17:40.530 - 00:18:00.790
And that's completely sincere. That's not in the copy. Find it all over@garagegrowinggear.com there's a link in the show notes or just open up that browser.
GarageGrownGear.com support what they're doing like they support your favorite podcast, the Rock Fight. All right, next thing that was in the news this week. There was a feature again on Shopee Surf Outdoor.
Eoin Comerford
00:18:01.850 - 00:18:02.930
We're calling it ciso.
Colin True
00:18:03.010 - 00:19:20.580
Sorry, ciso. I gotta get in that habit. Ciso. There's a feature in CISO along. Earlier this week, TJX announced a profitable year.
And while it didn't specifically address the financial performance of its off price outdoor retailer Sierra, they did announce that after opening 22 Sierra locations in 2024, they are planning to open 20 more locations this year. So total Sierra locations are currently at 117 per TJX CEO Ernie Herman and CFO John Klinger. And I swear I'm not making up those names.
Those are just, just great names. I love those names so much. I had to double check that that was what their names were. Great names.
They see the long term potential of sierra to hit 325 stores. So I just wanted to look at the number of doors at big outdoor chains. So REI is currently sitting at 180. Dick Sporting Goods is at 850.
We got Academy at 298 and then on the smaller side, Shields clocking in at 34. I mean, I don't know guys. Sierra most closely resembles what you'd find at REI right now.
I know they've been mostly an off price, closeout retailer, but it's not to say that it can't only be that.
So I want to ask you both, is that is Sierra the biggest threat to REI, not Dick's or backcountry.com or Shields is Sierra the next big outdoor retailer.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:21.320 - 00:20:52.660
In short, no. Tjx, which is the TJ Maxx conglomerate.
Their whole corporate mantra, the secret sauce that they have discovered that has been incredibly resilient for the last two decades through Covid, through everything, is what they call the treasure hunt of off price. This idea that people just love to go into these stores and it's a pastime, right?
The people that are buying in these stores, it's not just, oh, I need a jacket, where do I want to go? Oh, I'm going to stop by here.
It's more like, no, it's the joy of the deal going in there, going through all of those racks and racks and racks of product that there's no branding, there's no nothing. It's just here's a product, here's a price tag, here's the compare at I'm saving 50% off or I'm finding a brand I've never even heard of.
Actually quite a few of the smaller brands that I work with, they will actually sell to Sierra just to offload some old inventory. So you might find something from a pretty cool and interesting outdoor brand, you know, on the rack of men's extra large.
So, so that's, that's the deal. So I don't think that's changing.
I think what you are going to see that's going to change is to support this level of growth, you're going to see even more SMU special makeup product come from outdoor brands.
Producer Dave
00:20:52.740 - 00:20:52.932
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:52.956 - 00:21:08.068
I mean there's no, there's no way that. Because we're talking about three times the number of stores they have today.
So God, I hope we don't have three times the amount of off price goods in this industry, you know, in the next five to 10 years. That would be really bad.
Colin True
00:21:08.204 - 00:21:28.280
Those are the dots I'm sort of connecting here. Right.
Because at some point, and we know that, you know, brands are making product for them now outside of just the offloading, the second hands or the closeouts.
So at some point does it become, you know, just, does that just open up the opportunity for them to just kind of move more into a full on full price competitor with rei?
Eoin Comerford
00:21:29.700 - 00:22:06.010
I really don't think so. No, no. I think what's more likely is A, a lot more SMU product and B, more dilution of what Sierra stands for.
So Sierra really used to be very much about outdoor. Right. That was the core was outdoor product. And what I think you'll see is it's Just going to get more and more diluted down to outdoor active.
And so that could be anything. So, you know, here's my big prediction is starting this year and into next year, we're going to see a whole shit ton of surf.
You're going to see a whole shit ton of Volcom Billabong.
Colin True
00:22:06.670 - 00:22:09.398
It's like they don't have a bunch of stores where they were being sold before.
Eoin Comerford
00:22:09.534 - 00:22:10.534
I don't know.
Producer Dave
00:22:10.702 - 00:22:46.334
But let me just step in. Couldn't you say that that defines REI's mix too? That they are outdoor active and that's just the industry itself.
And so Sierra's gonna step up and why they might not challenge on the first price kind of aspect of REI's business. They're certainly maybe reverting back to this idea of a. My first thoughts, to stop to look for good gear. It's an outdoor store for outdoor people.
Right? You know what I mean? It's just a different mix in a different way.
Colin True
00:22:46.422 - 00:23:01.254
The opinion is sort of softening. There was a time not that long ago when you would have thought like, oh, well, that, you know, you couldn't put first run quality product in there.
But now I feel like, I don't know. The marketplace is being conditioned to see good product in a place and the.
Producer Dave
00:23:01.262 - 00:23:12.490
Marketplace is being conditioned. We're losing jobs, we're losing purchasing power. When does this become the primary stop for most people trying to find value in their outdoor wear?
Eoin Comerford
00:23:12.910 - 00:23:45.564
I think it can be a stop along the way to see if you can get a deal.
But if you're going for a backpacking trip, you're not going to find even a third of what you need in any kind of Sierra store because it is truly the treasure hunt. So maybe there's a backpack that might work. Will it fit you? Probably not. Are you going to find any backpacking food? No. A stove that works? No.
But yeah, you'll find just a whole shit ton of shells from every brand under the sun.
Producer Dave
00:23:45.732 - 00:23:54.360
So the equation doesn't work across the board in all categories. There's going to be just those categories where it does work and others that it just doesn't.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:54.520 - 00:24:09.656
I mean, it's really where.
Where there's the most product out there and also quite frankly, where there are brands that are most willing to add on to their production run at 25 to 30% below wholesale to fill out their order book.
Colin True
00:24:09.808 - 00:24:32.828
Right there you go with 325 doors. If they achieve that, I don't know, I just kind of. It doesn't seem like a stretch to even see like a deal like what Ultra did with rei. Right.
Just sort of like, hey, we're giving this big sort of chain exclusive to this product where maybe they'd say yeah, it's the treasure hunt. But for this one sort of launch we're going to drop in here with this and it's going to, you know, and kind of use this, the platform of 300 stores.
Oh, you're making a face. No, no, not even close.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:32.964 - 00:26:56.840
No, I don't.
As much as we beat up on brands on this show and maybe sometimes too much, but no, I don't think there is a brand that's dumb enough to launch one of their new innovative products in Sierra that would, I mean that, that is the death knell for, that would be the death knell for a brand. I do not see that happening. No, just, just. No, no, no.
What's much more likely and what does happen with for example the, the Marmot Precip is where brands will just knock off their top selling product. So it's like hey, you know, we, we or, or certainly a product that maybe has peaked, right? So we're known for this product, we sell it all day.
You, we make them by the boatload right now. And so actually we make really good margin on this product that we make a lot of.
So adding an order for 20,000 of them at 35% off, we're still making a ton. It works out well. So yeah, I think you'll see more of that, more of core product that goes in there.
I think the other thing worth thinking about here is the scale. So doing a little bit of math here, if you look at all of TJX's revenue and then their total square footage, they do about 417, $420 per square foot.
Okay. Average Sierra store is about 18,000 square feet. So each store does on average about 7.5 million. So you extrapolate that out.
170 stores, $878 million.
So basically if all that math, sort of maths, then Once they add 20 stores next year they're basically going to be a billion dollar retailer just for Sierra. So I do think that is worrying that basically you've got the 800 pound gorilla in REI which is doing what, 3.7, 3.8 billion and then.
But you've got this other group that has almost twice the number of stores ultimately or close to the same number of stores next year that's doing about 25, 30% of that volume. So it's like woof. That is A lot of volume in our industry in an off price channel.
Colin True
00:26:56.920 - 00:27:41.210
Well, and to your point, maybe this has got me where I'm thinking I should buy go versus what I was saying before. If you have, you're doubling the number of stores to get there and to your point, right now there's probably not enough closeouts to fill that.
So it's going to become much more SMU related reliant.
So now that's just going to become a part of a brand strategy in terms of like, or whoever's building it, whether it's factory made or a brand is, or, or handling it, whatever that is. So it, it still almost kind of ends up in the same place right where you're gonna have so much product.
And I mean, how does this even impact like the secondhand market? I mean it just sort of like it feels like this whole thing is going to be incredibly disruptive to the outdoor space.
Maybe they don't become the we're going to derail rei, but to have that many locations with that much stuff and become that meaningful to these outdoor brands, I mean, it really does change the landscape here.
Eoin Comerford
00:27:41.830 - 00:28:37.374
Yeah, I think the interesting point too is where do they put those stores?
Because if you're at 350 stores, you're in sort of every, not just every major market, but really every secondary market and maybe even into tertiary markets to where that can't support an rei, let's say. And so the Sierra in that market potentially comes in and the main player in that market had been an outdoor specialty store.
And it was safe because the market was too small to support an rei. And so it had coasted for a lot of years.
And then the next thing that you know, in that secondary tertiary market, a Sierra drops down in the strip mall and it's like that specialty retailer loses 30 to 40 to 50% of its business overnight. That's the real danger here, I would say.
Producer Dave
00:28:37.462 - 00:28:58.120
But is it also too a result of our contracting options? I mean, do you need a singular place to move this product if you have more retail that are able to move product more broadly?
End of season sales, we get to move through, we bring in the new. But if you don't have that going on, it all kind of funnels to one.
Eoin Comerford
00:28:58.660 - 00:29:19.228
It does talk to the thing that we've talked about a lot on this show, which is just the overproduction within our industry and an unwillingness to pull back.
And for all of the great conversations about sustainability, every incremental unit you produce is unsustainable by the fact that you are producing it, right?
Colin True
00:29:19.284 - 00:29:19.612
Yep.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:19.676 - 00:29:32.760
And so every incremental unit that you produce that you're then producing and selling at a discount is ridiculous. Not just from a business perspective, but from an environmental perspective. And all you're doing is feeding the Sierras of the world, right?
Colin True
00:29:33.380 - 00:30:23.944
Yeah, I guess that's just kind of what I'm getting to with my sort of weird theory that maybe this becomes a knockoff. Rei is just, I see that number of 325 and you start to kind of do the math like you did Owen of like what it will take to fill those doors.
And what does that mean to the challenge, current challenges of the industry?
The fact that we want to put more emphasis on secondhand and yet all these brands are going to have to fill these other stores because they're not going to walk away from that money and that they know that they can probably produce goods to help Sierra accomplish these goals.
So at what point does it just become a dominant player Just by the fact that there's, to your point there, there's a store in every major market and every suburb in that major market has a Sierra that has most of the stuff you need. I just, you know, just trying to kind of figure out how this all plays out.
That is just sounds like a massive amount of stores and a massive amount of stuff in order to be able to pull that off.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:24.112 - 00:30:27.460
So that's, I wouldn't say it's. I wouldn't say this is good news for the industry.
Colin True
00:30:28.400 - 00:30:35.288
We got there. All right. There's the summation we were looking for.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:35.424 - 00:31:56.650
Yeah.
Unfortunately, you know, obviously if people were working to these betterment of the overall industry, then there would be this like, well, no, we don't want this channel to exist. It's very bad for the industry. It's bad for the brands themselves that this channel exists because it undermines their own dtc.
It undermines the retailers that are paying them full wholesale for that product. So it's killing themselves. And if the industry all came together and said no, let's starve these guys that are sort of bottom feeders to a degree.
Right, let's starve these guys out, not let this expansion happen and kill the golden goose, then we could be successful and we could help to keep our industry standing. But the problem is you can't have that collective action.
A, it's illegal, it would be collusion, but B, also everybody still wants to optimize for their own individual result and they just don't think about the greater good of the industry. And so it'll come down to a sales manager and an executive team making a decision that might make sense in that moment for that brand at that time.
And they'll just keep feeding this beast until it ultimately eats itself.
Chris DeMakes
00:31:59.230 - 00:32:01.690
It's time for a party shot.
Colin True
00:32:03.070 - 00:34:17.870
All right, we're back with the parting shot. Dave, you missed it last week, but I'm gonna. What I'm.
What we're do is I'm gonna throw out a parting shot, and I want you guys to weigh in on whether or not you think it's, you know, it or if I just missed the mark entirely. My working theory that I want to put in front of you guys this week is that everyone needs to leave the North Face alone. All right?
So last week I had two encounters with, you know, quote unquote, core industry people who are aching to on the North Face. And I wanted to put out a call that everyone just needs to knock it off. All right?
I don't want to ever stop being critical of the North Face brand or product moves. That's way too much fun. But they catch just as much shit as everyone else.
But lately it seems like anytime they do anything, I receive an email about how they have lost their way and they aren't core anymore.
All right, so so far in 2025, we had the skims collab where this was a big running theory, like, oh, my God, the North Face isn't what they used to be.
Last week on LinkedIn, I got tagged in the comments of a post that started by asking the question, the North Face an outdoor brand or just cosplaying as one?
And then also last week, I was sent a collaboration that the North Face is doing with actor Barry Keoghan with the same implication of, like, is this sort of abandoning the core?
And at this point, it's almost comical to me because the running theme is what was overly stated in the second example I mentioned is about the North Face abandoning the Corps.
And I say it's funny because we were saying the same thing about the north face in 1999 when I was working at Eastern Mountain Sports, because there was a department store nearby that was selling the North Face products. So we're pushing 30 years of the is the North Face still legit conversation.
I mean, Dave, you and I even addressed it like last fall when they had the we play different video that came out. And there's a lot of people who are just immediate blowback of like, oh, they haven't been. They haven't been like this in so long.
They're not core anymore.
So the one conclusion we came to then, and I stand by it now, that as long as a brand is making reputable outdoor gear and apparel, they're an outdoor brand who caters to core outdoor consumers. So I want to ask you guys for my parting shot.
Do you approve of my request that everyone just leave the North Face alone and accept that they're an outdoor brand until they stop making outdoor stuff? Or all of a sudden, Alex Honnold says, ah, my North Face stuff failed me. It doesn't work anymore.
And then we could say, ok, you've abandoned the core. Like, that's, that's when we can actually allow that assertion to get some traction. What do you guys think?
Eoin Comerford
00:34:18.730 - 00:34:22.194
For me, it's just, it's just a tired trope, quite frankly.
Colin True
00:34:22.242 - 00:34:22.466
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:34:22.498 - 00:34:30.978
You know, I mean, somebody putting together that as, you know, like a core of a LinkedIn post is just like, okay, where have you been for the last 20 years?
Colin True
00:34:31.034 - 00:34:32.402
You're just begging for clicks.
Eoin Comerford
00:34:32.466 - 00:34:49.229
It's just, it's just, it's, it's lazy, quite frankly. And you know, back in Moosera, back in the day, Moose Jaw, when I joined Moose Jaw, north face was 45% of the business. So. Yeah.
The entire business of the entire business was 45%. Yes.
Colin True
00:34:49.389 - 00:34:50.609
All categories.
Eoin Comerford
00:34:51.269 - 00:35:10.461
Yeah. The whole effing thing. Yeah.
Because we were, we were one of the few online stores that they linked to from their site before they went D2C, which was back in 2008. But one of, one of the seminal moments for Moose Jaw was actually when the North Face released Hot Pink Denali's.
Colin True
00:35:10.525 - 00:35:11.357
I remember that.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:11.493 - 00:35:18.938
Right. Which is 2003. Okay, so we're 22 years ago and at the. Was like, oh, this is ridiculous. How, how could they do this?
Colin True
00:35:18.994 - 00:35:19.914
They've abandoned the core.
Producer Dave
00:35:19.962 - 00:35:21.114
They've abandoned the core.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:21.162 - 00:35:33.290
Oh, my God. Hot Pink. You know, and, and at the time, you know, our, our founder Robert Wolfe said we were never going to sell Hot Pink Denali. That's ridiculous.
And of course, we ordered a shetan and they sold out, like in three days.
Colin True
00:35:33.330 - 00:35:33.994
They sold out.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:34.082 - 00:36:25.924
Yeah. So it's. Yeah, yeah. Here's what I would say. It's part of the bigger trope.
And I think we're probably victims of this too, which is that, hey, the outdoor industry is actually part of the fashion industry. We just, nobody wants to, you know, it's like the emperor has no clothes. So it's part of that.
Just that the North Face is probably one of the bigger brands who actually somewhat embraces that and is actually authentic about the fact that, hey, yeah, we're kind of part of the fashion industry, guys. And so we are going, hello. Exactly. Hello, Gucci collab. Hello, Supreme. Hello, whatever, whatever. Right.
And so whereas for the quote unquote, core purists, that's a little bit cringe. It's like, hey, guys. I mean, that's the business we're in. People, you know, wake up.
Producer Dave
00:36:26.092 - 00:37:04.656
Yeah, well, no, I'm with you. Look, any mature brand is going to have more than a singular look.
You know, they're going to have a multitude of personalities that they can reach to and speak to. And so to me, that just shows the depth of the North Face brand, that it can authentically speak to multiple sides.
So, yeah, I think that's a weird way to look at it. I mean, and then, of course, there's always my consistent litmus test of an outdoor brand, a core brand. Do they make a dome tent?
And if they make a dome tent, they're in. Just straight up. They're in. And North Face still makes a dome tent, right?
Colin True
00:37:04.728 - 00:37:08.656
Yeah. What are the cries for? Is Eureka still cool? You know, they're going out of business.
Producer Dave
00:37:08.728 - 00:37:21.112
And I would say that there's also a third. Third. A third filter that you could probably look through a lens. And that's Conrad Anchor. All right. Is he still with the brand or not? Yes or no? Yes.
Then what are we talking about? What are we talking about here?
Colin True
00:37:21.216 - 00:37:58.630
That's another parting shot I want to do down the future is the value of these, you know, athlete teams. Like, why do we still. I saw. I saw a couple signings this week about people like, oh, we signed this athlete. I'm like, why? Like, what are you.
What are you going to do? What does that do for you in 2025? But that's another parting shot. We'll get to that one. But, yeah, I think the.
This is the most insidery of inside baseball thing that you hear, because there's like three people in the inside in the outdoor industry going, oh, my God, they're not core. And there's a million people who just think the North Face is an outdoor brand that they've known their whole life. And it's just. It.
Yeah, I think, Owen, I like what you said. It's just. It's just lazy. You're just searching for something to comment on. Who cares?
Eoin Comerford
00:37:58.790 - 00:37:59.270
It's just.
Colin True
00:37:59.310 - 00:38:22.016
It's the North Face. Yeah. Would I be. Would that be the product that I would seek out of the brand I would seek out? Probably not.
Not but also I know that if they said, hey, you need to go climb this mountain today. Here's a kit of North Face apparel that you're going to wear to go up the mountain.
It will probably be very comfortable and perform great and do everything that I would need it to do. So. All right, so we can, we can all agree that everyone needs to leave the North Face alone. Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:38:22.128 - 00:38:29.500
Not to protect the North Face. They're big people. Just, just stop, stop being lazy and come up with a better take.
Colin True
00:38:30.120 - 00:38:46.684
Exactly. That's. We were critical of like, you know, the skims collaboration from the environmental point of view, that was a little hypocritical. Of course.
That's that I feel like was well earned criticism. But we weren't hypocritical of the idea that, you know, like, hey, you want to collaborate with skims? Although actually I think Owen, you were.
And then it sold out.
Eoin Comerford
00:38:46.772 - 00:38:52.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Revisionist history here. Don't. Yeah, fortunately not. Go back and listen to that.
Colin True
00:38:53.060 - 00:39:03.904
Owen was on board from day one. He thought it was great. Just like the, the Hoka loafer. He thought that was real and I knew that was of them.
Eoin Comerford
00:39:03.992 - 00:39:06.580
Yeah, yeah, they're the best, unfortunately.
Colin True
00:39:07.240 - 00:39:13.296
Before we wrap up, Owen, why don't you talk about you just launched something on LinkedIn on Friday. What do you have going on over there?
Eoin Comerford
00:39:13.448 - 00:40:30.160
So a lot of times what comes up on this show is potentially a lack of innovation in the industry. And the reality is there's a shit ton of innovation in our industry. It's just, it's not necessarily coming from some of the big brands. Okay.
So there's a lot of graphics, great, great innovators out there that are doing really cool stuff that just don't get the exposure. So I thought, you know what, let's actually, you know, let me use some of the, some of the platform on LinkedIn to really highlight these folks.
And so every Friday I'm going to drop probably around 10:00am Eastern Time outdoor Founder Friday. So it'll feature a new founder every week and just that's doing something interesting in the space.
We started off, I guess just last Friday with ewer, which is a really cool women's apparel out of Missoula, Montana. And there'll be more cool brands here as we go over the next while until I run out of brands, I guess.
So if you are an outdoor founder led brand that wants to be part of the, part of this Outdoor Founder Friday, just reach out to me on LinkedIn, just connect DM, what have you. I'll send you the details and we'll see if we can get you a little bit of traction.
Colin True
00:40:31.210 - 00:40:35.138
Right on. Love that. That's true. All the fun stuff is at the small brands.
Producer Dave
00:40:35.234 - 00:40:40.178
Can you get them into Sierra? Just. Just a question.
Colin True
00:40:40.234 - 00:40:41.310
Not at full price.
Producer Dave
00:40:43.530 - 00:40:44.430
Fair enough.
Colin True
00:40:46.330 - 00:41:31.070
All right, everybody. That's the show. Come back on Wednesday to hear Justin and I run through some outdoor adventure headlines.
And come back on Friday to hear Matt Dwyer from Patagonia. Come on to talk about pfas. Tell us why we're wrong. We love it when people come to tell us why we're wrong.
Check out the latest from the Rock Fight podcast network. Aside from this show, check out Open Container Doug Schnitzbaum's show. New episodes of that drop tomorrow, every Tuesday.
Make sure you follow that show. The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Flight llc, our producer today. Producer David Karstad. He's back.
Art direction provided by Sarah the Breadmaster Gensert. And for Owen Comerford, I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. Here to take us out, our guy Krista makes.
He's gonna sing you right into another work week, another chance to get out there and excel. He's gonna do that with the Rock Fight Fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:41:39.250 - 00:42:26.810
Welcome to the Rock fight Where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock side Rock fight. Rock fight.
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Colin True
00:42:29.270 - 00:42:29.910
Rock fight.