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An Outdoor Journalist Weighs In On Outside's AI Chatbot


Today on the show Adventure Journal's Justin Housman returns from a weekend in the wilderness to give his thoughts on Scout, the outdoor trip planning AI Chatbot featured in a recent episode of the Outside Podcast, and discussed by Colin here on THE ROCK FIGHT.


If you haven't already listened to that episode of THE ROCK FIGHT check it out here.


On this episode Justin and Colin talk about how the discovery and learning are elements that come with the planning of adventures, how embracing AI could ultimately have an adverse effect for media companies like Outside and how storytelling is ultimately what matters.


Have a question or comment for a future mailbag episode? Send it to myrockfight@gmail.com or send a message on Instagram or Threads.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

this transcript was automatically produced and may contain typos and errors from the original audio

Chris DeMakes (00:07):

Here we go.

Colin (00:08):

Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows sometimes agree to disagree. I'm Colin. True. Joining me today, I ask chat g v t to create the greatest outdoor journalists of all time and it told me, you can't do better than my co-host Justin Haman's here everybody, he's back.

Justin (00:26):

I don't ever mention how much I love chat g p t. It's always been right about everything I've ever asked it to generate. It's my favorite piece of

Colin (00:34):

Technology, like two plus two.

Justin (00:37):

What is that again?

Colin (00:40):

Well, today's show we're going to talk about continue the conversation that I started last week with my episode of the Rock Play about outside ink's, new AI chatbot. I'll link that episode in the show notes in case you've missed it. But first, last week was a hausman free zone, so we need to get caught up on what we've been doing on our outdoor excursions. Mostly we get hear about your trip up to was supposed to be Yosemite. What happened? How did it all go last week?

Justin (01:04):

Well, it went great Yosemite. I have the worst luck when it comes to trip planning and weather. It doesn't have to be like an outdoor trip either, just vacation and stuff. I dunno what it is about me, but I have terrible luck. But I canceled my backpacking plans again because the hurricane Hillary was sending absurd amounts of moisture up to the mountains. So I ended up doing a little fly fishing up at near Mount Shasta, which is such a weird zone to me. It doesn't really feel like it's part of California at all. That sort of volcanic Shasta, the Lassen region, nobody really goes there. Well, Shasta has a little mountainy infrastructure, but the zone between Shasta and Lassen is just like a no man's land. So even I've lived in California my whole life and you tend to forget how 98% of it is just empty.

Colin (01:55):

It's a very empty state for as overcrowded as it's proclaimed to be,

Justin (02:00):

Right, it's incredible. I mean it takes me about, I would say 45 minutes driving north from where I live, which is the northern reaches of the Bay Area to where it's just nothing on I five. You don't hit another town until you get to Redding, which is four hours away. So it's four hours of absolute nothing. It's amazing.

Colin (02:20):

Well, so before we get into today's topic, I just want to remind you all, if you're listening to the rock fight, you definitely have outdoor gear and apparel that you're not using and you know what you need to do. You got to head to gear trade.com, click on the sell your gear tab because since 1999 they've been your go-to solution for anew outdoor gear and apparel. I know Justin, you've got a lot of gear in your garage. You still need to, we got to get this up in a box. We got to get gear trade to send you another box. Yeah,

Justin (02:44):

We do. Or anybody send a box, are you listening? Send me a box. I'll put some outdoor gear and send it to your house

Colin (02:53):

And Gear Chain will send you a box and a shipping label. All you got to do is load it up and ship it off. Avoid that pile of donations you haven't run yet to your local thrift shop. Send it to Gear Trade, make cash money off your unwanted stuff. Go to gear trade.com today.

Justin (03:08):

Can't be anything unwanted. You can't be putting your kids' toys in there.

Colin (03:12):

That's a good point. They actually just did a nice video of what you can send to under

Justin (03:16):

Media. Please don't put your dirty dishes in the box.

Colin (03:19):

Well, and some nuance. Yeah, don't do that. But then also things like you can send the rope bag but not the rope, right? That's important. But yeah, go anyway. Go to gear trade.com and check it out. But as for our conversation today, which is about outsides podcast out the outside podcast, recent episode and their new AI initiative, they're calling Scout. I covered this on a solo episode of the Rock flight. I went up this past Tuesday. We're recording this on the 24th, but if you miss that episode, the brief recap is that Scout is built on the back of chat G P T. It's being presented as a solution to the planning woes of busy outdoor enthusiasts. And I kind of took issue, not kind of, I took issue with the

Justin (04:00):

Premise

Colin (04:01):

And the manner in which they were rolling it out. Outside's had a bunch of misses over the past few years, including another foray into tech when it came to NFTs and I just, in my solo episode, I talked more about the outdoor community nature of it, but with Justin here and a reminder that Justin is a real live breathing journalist. I wanted to talk further about this. So my opinion's already out there. Like I said, I'll link to it if you haven't heard it yet. But you listened to the podcast yesterday, the outside podcast. What were some of your impressions listening to it?

Justin (04:30):

I don't really know even know where to start. I guess I would say that put my journalism cap to the side for a second. I largely would agree with you and your take about the planning is an integral part of any kind of trip. I do. I do get of their point about how it's Friday, maybe you've had a long week, you don't necessarily have time to do. I really want to sit on, figure out where to go hiking around here. I mean I do that and I've lived here for a really long time and I still kind of wake up on Saturday mornings going, God, where are we going to go today with the family? But it's not that hard. I don't need AI to step in

Colin (05:12):

Minutes before 20 minutes ago before we press record, I was researching trails on Mount Gia, not even intentionally. I saw Oling like, oh yeah, I want to do that hike and now all of a sudden I'm down a rabbit hole and I was getting so excited about it and so yeah, I get what you're saying that sometimes on the random Friday night or Saturday morning, it's a little inconvenient at times, but I kind of feel like I'm constantly making plans to go do outdoorsy stuff.

Justin (05:35):

Totally. And I don't feel like you're going to learn anything. I mean it's basically getting into a relationship with someone who knows more than you do about a thing and you just do whatever they say. What's even the fucking point, right? It's like, oh, I want to go hiking tomorrow. Where should we go honey? And they just tell you and you, all right, great.

Colin (05:56):

The discovery half of the fun with this. I think that's maybe that's really ultimately what rubbed me the wrong way. It was like by painting this as a problem and then a solution to that problem,

Justin (06:08):

Right?

Colin (06:08):

You're discounting what actually I think I like most about this, which is learning about where can I go and what am I going to see when I get there

Justin (06:16):

Or what about just not even having a plan, just fucking go, just go. Just do what people did before the internet existed. It's like it's really hard to even think about this. I don't know what happened. I would've done, I mean I'm old enough to remember pre-internet days, what did you do when there was no internet? So you're like, I want to go to Kings Canyon. Okay, I've heard of that. Sounds cool. Do I have time to go to the bookstore and get a book about it? Maybe What if you don't? What did we do? I don't even remember what we did, but it was fine and it was fun and that's how you learned and you probably got way better, all the things from planning to sort of resource what resources you needed to help you figure all this sort of stuff out. It doesn't really seem like it's going to be helpful to anybody other than whoever it is that makes money off of things like Chad, G P T and maybe particular businesses at certain trailheads. They're going to get inevitably more people funneled to that zone because if people are using AI to plan their trips, inevitably it is going to be the same fucking trip all the time. I think that when it comes to something like this, it's silly. It's a gimmick. It makes some kind of sense to me at least from a business perspective if you think that there's a resource here to be mined.

Colin (07:33):

You mentioned what did we do? I remember I moved to New Hampshire in 1997. That's when I started really getting into hiking and I discovered the AMC's White Mountain Guide, which was this book about, I'm holding my fingers up, no one can see it, but it was two inches thick and it was every trail and the White Mountains of New Hampshire and it came with three different maps. And you would go on the map and you would read about a hike, which was sort of like, what's that old surf guide? I can't remember what it was. It was like a blurb about this hike. It's like a paragraph. And then you would find it on the map and you're like, oh, that's where it goes. And then you're like, great, that's where we're going to go. And then you'd probably have your AAA map to show you how you actually get to that trailhead.

(08:08) And then once you got there, a lot of times you'd be like, oh, there's another trail going over here. Oh, there's a sign for a waterfall over here. Oh, there's something up this way. Or maybe you go back for another bench, you're like, oh, I was here before for that other hike. And it just becomes this sort almost snowball effect as you start to learn an area and where you want to go and all those, and I would never give up the convenience we have now of learning the stuff we can via the internet, but to sort of paint the picture of like, boy, I'm too tuckered out to think about these things. I'm just not going to go at all. I just reject that kind of fully.

Justin (08:37):

You could still do that. I mean maybe that's your entry point too, like a wilderness area that you don't know in the outside podcast. She goes to that trail in the Cascades and look, maybe that was all she needed. And she's like, oh, okay. Now she struck off and did her own thing after that. I mean possibly we kind of wondered at Adventure Journal for a long time, should we try to be some sort of clearinghouse for resources for someone who is trying to do something, learning about they want to go backpacking and they don't know what they need to bring, they don't know where to go. And we were like, okay, well we could just compile lists, compile lists of gear, compile lists of places, compile all these sorts of things and just let them live in a tab on the website. And our idea was that okay, that would be super s e o friendly and that people would be just googling for that source stuff and find us. And presumably that's what outside's been trying to do in the last couple years with something like this. Just you're a one-stop shop for everything you could possibly need to get you outside. So the concept makes sense to me as a business sort of idea, but where it breaks down really quickly for me is the way that chat G p t works is so stupid. It doesn't know anything, so it's just no, it

Colin (09:56):

Just scrubs the internet

Justin (09:58):

So it's not finding something you couldn't find yourself, which is your point about why you scout. Why not just use chat g p t yourself but also just do it your fucking self. There's a really interesting podcast that the New York Times puts out called Hard Fork and it's all about tech stuff and they did a really cool one on how stupid chat G B T is getting and AI in general. They mentioned on the outside podcast about how chat G B T because it went online or whatever in 2021, so it only knows things up to 2021. That's it. It doesn't, but that isn't necessarily the case with all large language models. That's just this particular iteration of chat G P T. But anyway, this podcast is interesting. It is basically like, look, nobody really knew this was happening, but ever since chat G P T and things like it went online, the internet is increasingly more and more full of AI generated content. So when something like chat G B T is scrubbing the internet for stuff, it's increasingly getting stuff that's coming from AI and not humans. So that's why you start hearing a lot of chatter about how chat GBT is getting worse because ITT can't feeding off of itself and so it's almost like inbreeding or something where it's just more and more

Colin (11:09):

Well and there's organizations that are now making it so they can't be scrubbed. Oh,

Justin (11:13):

That's interesting. I didn't know about that. Yeah, I

Colin (11:15):

Just read about this yesterday. I think the New York Times might be one of them, but so it won't even take the information from that place. But sorry, go ahead.

Justin (11:21):

Well, so basically at a certain point, whether it's something that's trying to find you a good trail or whatever the hell, it's eating itself, it's regurgitating its own bullshit and it's getting worse and worse and worse. And so to rely on something like that as a business model seems stupid. To rely on that as a source of knowledge seems stupid because I just said it's degrading itself constantly and as we go further, more and more of the internet's going to be ai, so it needs to be getting fresh information from somewhere else. It's going to be completely senseless pretty quick. It seems like

Colin (12:03):

You're tying yourself to chat G P T and to your point, there's no determination here yet. There's no clear winner a chat. G P T is the kind of AI du jour right now because it has a really easy interface. To your point about business, I've named episodes of this podcast using chat G P T to help offer solutions, those kinds of things and it's useful, but who's to say that in a few years that it's the eighth best option because other people have figured out to address what you're describing. It's a little early to be building. I feel like a platform that you're going to sell to your consumers off the back of

Justin (12:39):

I'm not afraid of losing my job or something like that to ai. I mean I don't care enough. I like what I do, but okay, I'll go do something else if I have to. My life isn't wrapped up in my career, but when I hear any journalist embracing this and I don't care at what level, I don't care if you're using cha G b t, I mean alright, you want to name your podcast fine, but it it's not that hard to come up with a name on your own or we've talked yesterday, we were talking about this and I don't feel like naming their names, but people that we both know who use it to maybe write newsletters for their product or whatever, I think that's a terrible idea, but whatever, if you're that busy, I get it. The problem is when you're listening to journalists, especially journalists that work for outside and backpacker and they're like, so we're helping build this thing that just scrubs all of the knowledge that we've ever contributed to this website and it's going to just spurt it out for you.

(13:32) It's like, well, you're helping the thing that's going to kill you and it's like you're doing it on purpose. Why would you want to aid a system that is going to do the things that you are ostensibly paid to do it outside magazine, you probably get paid to come up with cool trip ideas or write stories about it and you're going to help AI do that for you. You're literally going here, do my job and replace me please, and here's a bunch of ways to help it. This I find completely baffling just from a self-preservation standpoint

Colin (14:04):

I guess I say in the episode, and I mean I'm not just here to rake outside over the coals. I think they've made it very easy to do that for the past few years. You can nitpick a number of decisions, journalistic decisions, obviously technology decisions, all of these things, but it's just the whole thing's confounding from the premise that we've just spent time talking about, which you can pick at for sure. It's a weird thing you're ignoring a basic instinct that we have as outdoorsy people to plan our adventures to. The passing off your episode as a legit episode of your podcast when it's obviously sponsored content and it's so poorly executed and sounds kind of amateur and I'm not, this is from basically an amateur guy. It sounds really bad and usually their podcast sounds pretty good. I listen to their podcast regularly. So that's what it just felt insulting and then who internally was like, wait a minute, are we doing this now? What are we talking about? What are we putting out there? This is a great idea. We're going to add this to outside, plus it's going to be this wonderful thing. Is this a hail Mary? Because it's exactly what you just said. I feel like there's a better chance of that podcast being episode being written with this AI than people planning their adventures with this. To

Justin (15:25):

Be honest, it sounded like it was. I mean there wasn't a lot of spark there.

Colin (15:30):

No, which

Justin (15:30):

Is what the thing is. So we already know that AI can't reproduce, at least maybe eventually, but it doesn't seem like it's going. No one who's involved seems to think it's going to be able to ever replicate enjoyably readable pros or whatever. So at best, at best say this takes off, say you're outside here, gear Junkie, say any outdoor publication or any publication period at best, you're creating something that's going to be able to generate maybe some listicles or some how-tos or some trip suggestions and that's it. It's not going to do anything else, but

Colin (16:08):

That is also about what half of the outdoor media is that stuff?

Justin (16:11):

Well, yeah, and so it's like, I guess what are you in the business to do at a certain point? Are you in business to just exist? If that's the case, fire all your staff and just have AI compile listicles for trails. What's even the point? If you're actually interested in creating a community around doing these sorts of things and telling good stories and inspiring people, then you're not going to touch something like ai. It has no life, it's not going to do at all. Maybe it can help. It can help with generating emails, customer facing emails or something like that, but even then, personally I don't think it's worth it. You can tell at least I feel like I can tell now when I'm getting things that are from ai. Yeah,

Colin (16:56):

No, I agree with

Justin (16:57):

That. It used to be the Gawker group, that Gizmodo Group now just came under fire for publishing a bunch of stuff that was just written by ai and you can could tell months ago, they've sucked for a while, but you could tell months ago when their content started switching over to AI based and so I just don't know. That feels to me like you're desperate and you're scared and you think that maybe this will stave off the inevitable rather than just doubling down on the thing that got you to where you are and that people will actually want to read, which is why AJ is successful. I mean it's very clearly made by humans that you kind of know we're small, who we are and where our point of view is and whatever, but you feel like you're part of a community and you're never going to feel like that when it's just a computer just spitting, do you like this? What about this at you? It just seems sad and soulless to me.

Colin (17:53):

It's like everything else though. There are the upsides to your point, there's the medical upside. If you're writing a ton of HR emails and it's, it's an easy thing to generate. There's absolutely going to be amazing implications here. And look, I'm sure down the road it will be incorporated to your point, if the AI is taking over the internet, it's going to be part of the way we do these things. It's just strategically and as a community, I just had so many issues and then even especially like I said, the rollout of it, this wasn't a, Hey, we're thinking of doing this. We're investigating the world of AI and how it works in the outdoor world and what it could mean in terms of how you plan your trips and how easy it could be. Or actually, this isn't as good as we thought it was. To your point, what's the tax you take? This is we're developing this thing and it's going to be available to you later this year and here's our preview of it. And I was like, wow, are you short on stories? What the hell is going

Justin (18:54):

On? Think about the logical sort of extension if this works out. Say if you own a media company and this is your idea, right? You're going to have AI generate something that presumably is a big part of why people come to your site to begin with. The best case scenario for you is it works and what does that mean? You don't need any people anymore. Why would you pay anybody at the end of, so what happens is you have basically you have the person that owns it or in this case the capital group that owns it. Let's just say it's one person though. Let's say that rock fight becomes huge or whatever, and there's Colin at the top and a bunch of people below him and you decide, fuck it, I'm going to use AI to generate all these podcasts and all this sort of stuff.

(19:36) So now you have Colin who owns it and you have probably one person to make sure the computers don't break maybe another person to just kind of smooth the edges out and put the content line and that's all you need. You don't need anything else and you can generate fuck tons of content constantly still, I guess what are you going to do quit? It just baffles me that if people are working in media groups right now, like, Hey, let's roll some AI out. Let's help it. I'm listening to these two people that both work outside talk about their experience using this and the third person, the only other person involved is the only one who won't get fired because of ai, the engineer who helped develop it, the other two people, you're done. There's just no point If this works, you're done. That sounds awful to me. Just awful. Fuck, I'm out. I'm on a farm, I'm out. Fuck that. I'm done. I'm Amish at that point, I'm making chairs.

Colin (20:28):

You'd be an Amish guy, you're beard with the Yeah, I'd be sick in the hat and

Justin (20:32):

Stuff. They base Harrison Ford's character on me in witness and

Colin (20:35):

Witness

Justin (20:36):

Crazy. Is that the Amish one? That's the Amish

Colin (20:37):

One. Yeah, it was filmed in my hometown actually. I'm not concerned about that happening. I think it's something like the recent rise in direct to consumer brand. Everyone's like, oh, you don't need to go to, you don't do anymore or do retailers anymore, and they're like, that's proven not to be the case because guess what? People like to go to stores and shop and stuff like that. I think this is kind of the same thing where a balance will be struck, right? Magazines will, I don't know. I can't predict the future in this one. It's a little weirder. I also on that topic too, by the way, I think it's very interesting timing. I mentioned in the episode you have the W g A writer strike going on and here's an outdoor company, here's a media company announcing we're going all in on ai. That is

Justin (21:17):

Not a good look. Let's have some solidarity as fucking people.

Colin (21:21):

Writers. Writers are on strike. I don't care if they're writing movies and TV shows, writers are on strike and you're like, Hey, look at our AI thing. It's great. Just not well thought out. And to that point, and not to get any conspiracy theories that we should probably start to wind it down because I don't think we're going to come to any real conclusions, but no,

Justin (21:37):

We did. I think we've come to some,

Colin (21:42):

We definitely did. It feels to me, I would wonder what do the creatives inside and outside think of this versus the ownership? This feels very much like a top-down push, like go promote this

Justin (21:54):

Thing that we're fucking, of course.

Colin (21:57):

Well, and the creators are like, okay, we have to because we work here.

Justin (22:00):

I mean that's true. It's like I've worked, when I worked at Surfer, it changed hands three or four times with these, I mean thankfully I never had to deal with that, but it changed hands for these capital group's. Not the right word. What the fuck I'm talking about hedge fund, whatever. They're always vaguely different things that they wanted to do. They never had. These people don't care. They get paid a shit ton and if they get canned, they get massive stuff, they don't care. They sit in a boardroom and they say things that sound good and they just leave and we're the ones that have to implement it like, oh, okay, I guess we have to do this. It doesn't, none of that shit matters. I guess these poor people are outside. They're trying to keep their jobs. I get that. I feel bad to a certain degree talking shit, but I can't help myself.

Colin (22:45):

Like I said, don't want, I don't think this is just talking shit. I do think this is an important marker in what we're doing. If this was just the last thing I ever want to do on a show called The Rock Fight is just be a complainer who's like, there's got to be a little heart, a little understanding of what's the premise here. It wasn't just to say, this made me angry. I'm going to complain about it. It's like, no, I see this as a symptom of a bigger problem in this thing that I love and especially outside and how important it was at the time that I started getting into this stuff, the role that outside played. I'm like, wow, this isn't just, Hey, your stuff's not quite as good as it used to be, right? This isn't that your 20th album isn't as good as your third album. This is what are you doing, man? This is your family member who's off the rails and talking about MAGA stuff at Thanksgiving, honestly. So it's like what do we do about this? And I don't think we can do anything because it's just the situation for them. You go, and this isn't Span con, I'm not accept any money, but you go subscribe to Adventure Journal and you have subscribe to the mountain that and these places who are doing it, right? I guess it's really all,

Justin (23:50):

I mean, we're not immune to the same sorts of things that drive companies outside to produce these sorts of things. I mean, it's not easy coming up with, we only make four issues a year and it's not easy. We're lucky enough to get pitches for 99% of the stuff that we published, thank Christ. If not, I dunno what we do. It's not easy, man. And when I first started at surfer, the going phrase, there's only so many ways to wrap a burrito, and I've mentioned to you, there's only so many stories you can write each year, and for the most part that's true. So the secret sauce though is you realize that that's only a problem for the producer, right? That's only a problem for the people that make the magazine. If I have a job that I don't really love and I like to get out and I like to read about it, I don't really, I'm not sifting through stories constantly and my head isn't constantly in production of this sort of stuff.

(24:49) So if I get 12 issues a year or I don't even know if outside of Mexican magazine anymore, they probably don't do 12, they probably do like 10. If I get 10 issues a year, and yet if they're the same basic stories that I read five years ago, I don't care. I mean, that's the thing is the readers don't even care. It's the people that make it that care. I truthfully think that people will still enjoy reading good stories about people doing things outside, even if they've basically read that story a million times. The problem is that it gets boring for the people that make it,

Colin (25:18):

But what you're describing is, and this is true about this is just storytelling. This is the difference between the thousand people. Here I am skiing at a ski resort, I don't care, Teton Gravity research how great your cameras are. It's still people snowboarding and I don't care. Now, if you have a story about a snowboarder that does something that I relate to as a human and then it happens to be snowboarding focus, now I'm interested, right? This is same thing in movies and tv. The stories are all the same. Why was Marvel successive for so long is because there was kind of a human element to a lot of those movies that you then developed the relationship with these characters and now they're getting away from that and they are starting to suck. So it's the same thing. Just stop making, oh, will Grant was on the show talking about the last ride of the Pony Express that was, I don't ride horses. I don't want to go ride the Pony Express. I was riveted by his book because the adventure was, he was interesting. What he was doing was interesting and so I don't know. I think that's the stuff that we're missing. We're just looking, this is just another thing. Even if they're moderately successful, it's just going to be another thing on outside Plus, and it's pointless because you're building it off the back of something that already exists I can use for free. So what are you doing again?

Justin (26:35):

One thing I've learned in the last few couple of years is that Google is so much more powerful than I thought it was. You can type that kind of shit into Google. Where should I go hiking this weekend? I mean, it's not going to give you a little box with an answer, but you can kind of already use the internet that way.

Colin (26:51):

I have never run up against having a problem finding something to do outside because of the limitations of the internet. Well, unless you have anything else to add to this, I think we could probably wrap it up there. I definitely want to hear what anyone thinks about this, including people from outside and if we're right and you're on the inside and outside and it's not cool over there, you can speak anonymously.

Justin (27:13):

Exactly. Yeah. Keep an anon. I mean, that's fine. I would love to hear from people there, but honestly, I kind of know what they'll say because I've been through this before with surfer.

Colin (27:24):

Send your feedback over to my rock fight@gmail.com. We are doing mailbag. We're going to be doing a mailbag later this week and we definitely want to hear what you have to say, so send it on over the topic. You're there whenever. If

Justin (27:35):

You're AI software and you're listening to this, so you're scrubbing this too, I would love that too. Information. Please send us your thoughts. You're probably verging on self-awareness. I'd love to hear what you have to think about about this sort of thing.

Colin (27:45):

If you're listening to this, be sure to subscribe to Follow the Rock Fight wherever you get your podcast. Leave us a five star review. I said I wasn't going to say that anymore, but I really feel like I need to say that. It'd be great if you did that for us. Let your outdoorsy pals know that they should check out our show. Like I said, send your feedback to My rock bite@gmail.com.

Justin (28:02):

What's weird is this actually haven't this entire time, this has just been a chat bot. Isn't that funny? I'm actually surfing right now of that.

Colin (28:10):

Yeah, we mailed it in for, we're using Scout for this.

Justin (28:14):

I would like, I just want to sign out with some kind of rallying call to any human beings that still exist in the world. We can fight this. We don't have to accept this.

Colin (28:24):

Could we rock? Fight it?

Justin (28:26):

Yes. I think if you mean literally, yes, I'm very good at throwing rocks. Anybody who wants to join,

Colin (28:32):

I love that. I love that. This is a production of Rock Fight L l C, and here to take us out is less than Jake's own, own Krista makes and we'll see you next time.

Chris DeMakes (28:44):

Rockside, we go where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human power, outdoor activities and pick bikes about topics that we find interesting like five culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth.

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