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Apple Maps Gets Outdoorsy, NPS Uniforms At Pride & SUP'ing The Texas Water Safari

It's Headlines day on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) as Colin & Justin run through stories to come out of the outdoor industry and community including the following:

  • How will Colin & Justin get MORE out of their weekends? (05:24)

  • A new bike saddle has been introduced that aims to reduce sore tushy's everywhere (spoiler: the boys aren't sure this is gonna get traction). (09:58)

  • National Park Service employees will be allowed to wear their uniforms while participating in Pride related events. (15:00)

  • Apple announces big changes in the forthcoming IOS 18 that will give new resources to outdoorsy folks. Cue a classic Housman technology rant. (22:32)

  • Austin's Veronica Sosa completes the brutal 264 mile Texas Water Safari on a stand up paddle board! (35:00)

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Episode Transcript

Chris DeMakes (00:07):

Here we go.

Colin/Justin (00:08):

Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True and joining me today, roll out the red carpet because next week the king returns to outdoor retailer. It's Justin Houseman. I wonder if anybody will recognize me. I don't know. Is anybody going to be there that you used to know at outdoor retail? Well, I mean, yes, presumably. Yeah, I guess who knows? Things happen. Things change. For all I know, the people that I had dealt with before are now working for The Tick mit, which is going to be having a booth there. The Tick mit, have you seen this? No. What's the tick mi? I think it takes ticks off your closer body. It looks like a giant MIT that you put on and then this is the kind stuff that's going on Outdoor retailer this year, but who knows?


That sounds super useful. People change heads. Hey, you know what? Honestly, I'm kind of excited. That's why I'm excited to go. Probably going to be. We had this guy at Adventure Journal a few years ago who wrote us and said, Hey, I live in Montana. I'm always dealing with bear spray and all the bear spray like straps that you can have that go to your belt normally are really, it's hard to, it's not like a holster. You have to undo something and there's like a multistep. It's, hold on a second Bear. I got to get this out. Yeah, hold on. Give me a sec. As you're fumbling around. And so he developed a bear spray holster where it's like basically you're just John Wayne or whatever. I prefer Val Kilmer and Chin Stone, your dock holiday, just really fast. And that's the kind of stuff I'm looking forward to see in this kind of cottage industry.


I made this in my garage also. I'm going to be loaded with Bear spray because I presume there's bears in Utah. It's all over the Salt Palace. They just release them and every once in a while someone just gets taken out. That's what happens. There's a way to increase relevance, right? It's a trade show and escape room. Tooth and Claw will be also filming a live podcast from a door retailer. This year there's just going to be bears wandering around the facility. Alright, well today we are going to run through some of the more notable or exciting headlines that come out of the outdoor industry and community, but before we get to that, we've got just a few housekeeping items. We want you to quickly, just quickly guys follow and rate the rock fight wherever you're listening, whether that's on Apple, not that quickly. I mean be thoughtful.


Well, if we're going to get to the part about writing a review, otherwise it could be really quick. You just click five stars and you're done. That's a good point. But if you are an Apple Podcast listener, we really need you to leave us a written review and from now until the end of June, if you leave a written review and email us at my rock, we're going to send you a rock fight or a gear and beer sticker. We've been on the road, so those of you who we owe stickers, they we're going to start shipping them next week. They are coming. We just have to kind of wrap up this next round of trade shows and then I'm going to start shipping out stickers. But if you want a sticker, leave a review and sentence proof on Apple Podcasts. Speaking of gear and beer.


Gear and beer now has its own podcast feed. A new episode dropped this Friday. We talked about Topo Athletic and some summary wheat beers. It was a good episode. So go follow and rate gear and beer wherever you're listening to the rock fight. And also five stars, right to the five star. Just go right to five. You don't need to think about it too hard. Did you know, you know, Colin, that five is apparently the highest number that humans for the most part can instantly calculate. Like recognize five things. If you have five stones or five socks or whatever, your brain can go five just same way. You can where like three rain man seeing the toothpicks on the floor. You can essentially, I know what that is. I know the number. Yeah, but obviously we're not. Yes, I don't remember how many there were of Yes, but I mean for the most part, unless you're highly autistic, you can see five.


You don't have to count. You just recognize that's five. Once it gets to six, you have to stop for the most part and count. Isn't that weird? Is that a real thing or are you just making that up? No. Yeah, I heard a radio lab about this or something. I think certain animals have certain limits. Like a bear can maybe do three or something like that without having to, I dunno how they would know. So bear podcasts, they have a maximum of three star ratings. That's right. Yeah. Yes. I just find ever since I heard that, or maybe I read it somewhere, I've constantly testing it out. It seems to be true. It seems like a bunch of shit. You have like, oh, okay, 1, 5, 6. Wait, wait, wait a minute. That's more than five. You can instantly tell it's five. Just boom. That's five. That's amazing.


Yeah. Well, when they're leaving the five star review, how else can our listeners follow us and follow along with the show, Justin? Well, I would prefer an email, don't you Colin? I love getting emails from our listeners. I love getting a good email at my rock or you can not even really or and you should not even can. And you should go to Instagram. We are and give us a follow there and leave us a pithy comment on our Instagram posts and also maybe even more importantly, subscribe to our newsletter. You're going to love it. It's going to fill your Sundays with joy and with wonder. Maybe some horror at times, depending on what's in it. Maybe some nausea, perhaps some envy, hatred from time to time newsletter. That's a thing. Totally. Yeah. We're trying to touch all the bases, but you can subscribe or I guess join the mailing list on our


Alright, Justin, it's time now for more with Themore, our weekly segment presented by Themore, the original ingredient brand who has been providing insulation solutions from Italy. So you know what's good since 1972 old, right? They're from the old country. Is that the old country? I think anywhere in Europe. That's just the country to my understanding. Well, that's true. If that descent and you grew up here, that is definitely the old country. Yeah, sure. So last week we detailed our three goals that we want to accomplish to get more with Themore out of our summer, and I'd like to report, I've done none of them so far. It's been a week. I'm behind. We lost the whole week of the summer. So you did you do anything? Yeah, I've done none, but I also didn't set out to do any this week. I still, we got Salt Lake City coming up, I got to focus, but once that's in the rear view, boom, I'm doing all those three things that I definitely remember that I said I was going to do for the summer and I 100% remember what they were you're going to, which that takes place.


Yes. You said old, what were the other two you did? Yeah, exactly. Yours are a little bit more what? You got to plan for backpacking with your daughter. You got to plan that. Oh, and catching a fish up in the, that river in the Sierra. That's right. Catching the Oh, that's okay. Is for three of those. You need to kind of plan out. Mine were a little more like I had, I can't catch a fish in the West Walker right now. The water's too high, so that's not on me. That's true. Yeah, that's on God until the water recedes a little bit. The big one. I feel like I lost time. One is I want to surf twice a week and I didn't get into the water this week, so I'm a little bumed. You don't, I'd like to put You don't have a job.


I'm doing my job right now. Whatcha talking about? Well that's true. These things dont edit themselves. You can go surfing whenever you want. Well, I mean technically you're probably right. So for this week as some coming weekend though, because I didn't get a lot done this week because we're headed to Salt Lake City next week. I want to get more out of this weekend. So here's what I'm going to do more out of this weekend. You tell me if you're going to do more than me this weekend. Okay. Alright, so it's Friday when we're recording this. I've already gone for a hike today. I'm already on my weekend. I'm already up on you. I'm already doing more. Yours started on Tuesday. Yep, that's right. So I went for a hike already today. Tomorrow morning. I've done two hikes. I'm going to go for a hike or ride my gravel bike tomorrow morning.


I already did that tomorrow morning. You already though already? Already tomorrow. Tomorrow morning already? Yep. How dare you? I have a hockey game tomorrow night. Not interested Sunday. I'm either going to go to the climbing gym or get out for yet another hike. Okay. You going to do Sunday as well, or you're waiting on Sunday? Yeah, dude, I'm done. I've already went to Salt Lake City. How was the show? We did great. We killed it. We did really good. This is amazing. I can cancel my flight now, actually. I mean, summer's over for me. I'm already in fall. I got my thermal insulation. You can ski ski this weekend. Weekend I think, right? Yeah, I got my carbon jackets full of Themore. I'm good. I do have news for you though. We are going to get up early because we're staying in Park City next week when we're in Utah.


We're going to go for a hike on Tuesday morning in the mountains. It might be a little cool up there. Red Root South. That's fine. That's good. I'll throw more it up there too. I'm not afraid. Excellent segue because today's episode of the Rock fight is presented by the original ingredient brand Thermo. Who wants you to get more out of your outdoor adventures with products like their 100% recycled Evo down. Last week we talked about Eco Down. This week it's Evo down and Evo down is a synthetic in installation that you can find in jackets suited for running and hiking. Most notably, you'll find Evo down in over a dozen carbon jackets. Do you know Carbon, that brand carbon just by I know their logo. That's it. Yeah, they Canadian brand. I believe out a Toronto. I think out of Toronto. Canadian, yeah. I always say Canadian too.


Isn't it weird? I don't know why I can't do that. Why is that? It's so hard. It's really hard not to do that. But you know what, we'll call it that from now on. It's Canadian. We just changed the rules. Yep. So you'll find Evo and Carbon Spartan coordinates, which is a sick vest. Perfect for early morning summer runs or hikes in the mountains like you and I are going to do next Tuesday. We're not going to have a carbon jacket with us, but if we did, it would be perfect for that. But you, you know why it would be perfect because of the ther Evo down. That's it This summer, everybody out there do more in the outdoors with Themore. I mean, it's right there in the name more. Alright, man. Let's take a quick break. When we get back, we're going to talk about some headlines.


This episode is brought to you by Switchback Spring, the new outdoor industry gathering for education, networking, and business. Coming to Nashville June, 2025, connect with peers and players in gear footwear, apparel, hiking, camping, trail running, and more for three days of learning discovery and celebration Switchback spring is the new go-to meetup for specialty retailers, brands, media and outdoor organizations. Mark your calendars for June 16, 18, 20 25. Visit switchback for all the details and start planning your new outdoor industry adventure. Alright, first up, according to an article posted on new this week, in order to combat a soar tushie while riding your bike, Australian engineer Robin McCann has invented the Babs Rider bicycle saddle, which is comprised of two sides that pivot in time with your pedaling and allows individual movement of the legs. Whereas a normal saddle fights against your legs as you pedal leading to discomfort.


This one works with your natural emotion. I sent you a little, I texted you a video. Have you, oh, there it is. There it is. There it is. Okay, I'm watching it right now. I have a major inclination to make fun of this, but then you watch it and it actually makes a lot of sense. You think about when you take some time off from riding bikes and you get back on, you're like, oh man, my sit bones and all the spots that hurt. Well, I thought it was going to, it's not really apparent when they're writing. You can't really, I wouldn't know that anything was happening since I was staring at their butt from behind or something, but I could see it actually making a difference. I also think this could never, I really enjoy how the little animated thing here of a normal saddle, it looks like your pelvis is making a very frowny face.


Well, it's unhappy. It's sore. It doesn't want to sit on a traditional saddle, but I don't know, man. I just don't know if this thing could ever, do you think this thing could ever gain traction? I just can't see anyone who would ever, there's so many products and I'm unfortunately not going to be able to name a single one of them, but make all the sense in the world, but we will just never be adopted. Do you feel like this? You get it? Does it make sense when you see it kind of the way they're explaining it? It does. It does. I will say I don't really give much thought to my saddle. I mean, it just seems to be fine. I mean, yeah, I get sore if I ride for 50 miles or something, but it seems, I don't feel like there's a problem that needs to be solved.


It's also impossible to imagine what Colin's talking about without looking at either watching a video of it or seeing a picture of it. I mean, the way you just described it I wrote is their copy, but I have no idea what you're saying. This is literally two separate saddles, kind of that move with your butt as you pedal. Yeah, it's like a little angel is cupping each buttock as you pedal. It looks very busy. I also want to say addi a funny name. Aax is like an anti-anxiety drug, so I'm sure that that has nothing to do with why it's called that or maybe it has everything to do with it. It's basically like Xanax. It's just a different kind, so that's kind of a funny name. Do you think they'll come out with a version? It's two devils to go with the two angels holding a mirror up.


I mean, have you ever had a suspension seat post? No. See, they are brilliant. Suspension seat posts are awesome. You wouldn't even really know for the most part, depending on what kind you get, it just looks relatively like a normal seat post. Just see a little bit of give on the, and it's amazing. It is a wonderful thing, especially honestly, I've seen old, when we were first figuring out suspensions on mountain bikes, there were suspension seat posts then that was trying to do the same thing. But I had one on my previous cargo bike and it was amazing. But even that, those are not widely adopted and they're basically just regular seat posts. I can't fathom this thing, but fuck. I don't know. Maybe. No, it looks too weird. It looks too weird. We saw the photo of it before we watched the video and you're like, what is that?


It also looks like you have to think about it when you sat down. You have to be like, okay, where am I putting my foot of charm of on? First? Part of the charm of a bike is, I don't think about it at all other than how much I love it. It's like, oh, here we go. I don't even look at it when I get on. I just sit. Yeah, it looks like a half transform transformer dude kind of pulled apart. There's nothing more frustrated than that when you can't figure out where the head goes. Why were they so hard? What the fuck? They were so hard When you got one, when you were a kid, did you follow the directions? Did you try to figure it out on your own? This is the first time I've learned they came with directions for how to transform them.


Okay. Really? There's no way. I mean, I don't read the instructions now. You think I was going to do that when I was 10? Do you read instructions when you get a new board game, if you play with the family or, I would never get a board game. What? No. Alright. We're playing board games in Utah next week. I like board games, but I don't have the, no, I'm not going to sit here and learn a whole new game for an hour and a half. They're so fun. We've gotten Settlers of Catan a few years ago and it was the best thing ever, but the concept that was the best. It's like I would never do that. So fun. The seat, it's sort of like this seat where it probably works fucking great. The concept of learning it and getting it and sitting on it.


I'm not really interested and board games are the same way. I have a blast, but I would never buy one. It does seem like this is the, we're solving a problem for something that's existed for a couple hundred years and no one really thought there was a problem before. Right? Yeah. I mean, good for them. Great. Innovate the shit out of it. Disrupt for them. Disrupt these bike saddles. But yeah, I don't think it's going to go anywhere, but I thought it was pretty good. Thought was, I mean, the comments turned off in the YouTube video from the, that's not a good sign company making it. Never a good sign. Never a good sign. Never a good sign. Let's move on. Per NBC news, despite a previous memo directed to National Park Service employees to refrain from participating in or attending any demonstration or public event wherein the wearing of the uniform could be construed as agency support for a particular issue, position, or political party last month, the NPS said they will allow employees to participate in pride related parades and events in uniform.


I think you shared this one with me. I mean, this is kind of a win. It's also kind of a sad win. It's a little ridiculous that we have to really concern ourselves with this kind of shit, but what did you think when you read this article? I feel like every time these sorts of things happen, it always ends up biting the person in the ass who decided that you couldn't wear a pride pin or a pride flag or a pride jersey. I mean, that was a big deal in the NHL, right? But now they've kind of backed off and they're letting the players do it. But it was a huge thing and I kind of get the knee jerk reaction to just be like, we're not going to make any statements. I mean, how is this hurting anybody? It makes no sense to me, and it just sets a really shitty precedent.


Imagine if you imagine working for the National Park Service and pride is a big part of your life, and June is a special month to you, and they just come out and be like, yep, you can't wear a rainbow pin or whatever. You can't put or can't walk in the parade in your uniform or something or that. Yeah. I mean, it just seems like unnecessarily cruel and totally tone deaf. I mean isn't like everything right now about trying to be the most inclusive possible in the outdoors. I mean, that's what everything is. Trend is. That's the major trend in the outdoors. I mean also what's weird is that this kind of thing where social media managers are probably not consulted with enough in these sorts of things because they're going to have their fingers way more on the pulse of how something like this is going to shake itself out.


But I saw this because it was blowing up on social media and they were just being roasted. The National Park Service was, and they have a great national, I mean the National Park Service has a really good social media team. You would think that they would've been able to anticipate and they probably would have, Hey guys, if this gets out, this is going to look really shitty. The activist Patagonia is marshaling hundreds of thousands of supporters to the cause here and adding all over the National Park Service about this. I just can't believe that the social media manager wouldn't have been able to say, Hey, you know what, guys? This is not going to go over well with anybody under the age of 60. Obviously, it's a totally fear-based decision. I think if there's been one thing that's been consistent in the current climate, it's when people want to do things individually and you don't let them, there will be blowback.


I mean, I think even, which surprised me, did you see the comments made at that graduation ceremony by the chief's kicker last month? I mean, I didn't actually see what they were, but I mean, I get the gist. Yeah, he was a little more on the conservative side and that pissed me off immediately. But at the same time, there was then blowback, Hey, this is how the guy feels is his religious beliefs, his teammates stood up for him like Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kel knows guys stood up for did really? Yeah. I mean just they said, we disagree on things, but he's a good teammate and we're excited to have him back in camp. I'm kind of like, cut him. Get the guy out of here. But I think this is a thing where if you as an organization, a government run organization too, decide, Hey, you can't wear that uniform when you to hike, go walk in something that is, you're American given right to do.


That's a problem. Well, I can sort of get the political thing. I can get that. You can't have a Democratic party sticker or a Republican party sticker on your hat or uniform or I'm going to vote for so-and-so, or you can't wear a MAGA hat. That all makes sense to you. That makes sense. This shouldn't really be a political issue. I mean, the political issues are choices. This isn't one, it just seems like, so it is kind of weird that this does come up in a Democratic administration. You'd think there'd be a lot of sympathy towards this, so there must be some level of pressure coming to, for someone to make this decision. Like I say, it's a fear-based decision, but also it's got to be rooted in some level of reality of some sort of pressure being applied by somewhere. Wouldn't you think? Well, I'd have to think that MPS has run any other corporation has run, which is any idea anybody has to be run up to the person right above them for the most part.


Right? I mean, Deb, how excited where all of us, when Deb, well, those of us on the progressive side, when Deb Holland was put in charge of the interior, so if the National Park Service is going to have some sort of broad ruling like this, does Deb Holland have a say in it? Or is this the kind of thing where there's somebody in charge of, I don't even know what that would be, the uniform standards or something like that for the Rangers and they just decided this on a whim and put that memo out? I mean, you got to wonder. You do have to wonder if National Park Services constantly fending off conservative challenges to what they want to do or reading the tea leaves and saying, well, if Trump wins in 2024, we already know they're going to slash our budget, so let's not, let's piss off even more if we can help it.


I mean, maybe, I don't know. I mean, it's probably somebody in a tough position that's bending to outside forces that they'd rather not deal with maybe. I don't know. It's a good question about it being, it's a democratic administration, one that's proven to be pretty left in terms of its support for identity politics, but then putting out something like this, I mean, it does make you think that there's somebody that's afraid of what would eventually, how that would make them look, I guess. Yeah. Which also makes it show why it is either tone deaf, however you want to describe it. Like this is the fight you're picking like, Hey, don't go March the pride parade in your uniform. Well, it's also, it feels like everything is building toward this. We all know that outdoor participation is growing. We know that the outdoor participation economy is huge and getting bigger.


We know that there's some bills about to pass the Senate that are going to siphon off even more money for outdoor stuff, and everybody is trying to get everybody outside, and then it's like a record scratch where you're like, oh, by the way, you can't celebrate anything to do with Pride month. Just like where is that coming from? That is so against the flow of what's going on right now with the outdoors. It is also where there is kind of a convergence of the right and the left. Right, because there's plenty of conservation groups that are more conservative as well. Well, that's true. Right? Yeah. So there you go. That's true. I mean, who knows? I don't know who the biggest lobbyists are with the National Park Service. Honestly. It could be hunting groups. I mean it very well could be. It could be the NRA. It probably is. Actually, that's a really good point about how much they stand to gain from ammo sales and stuff like that. We should continue to speculate. I think we know. We know.


No, but I was, let's get Deb Holland on. Yeah, let's do it. Let's get around's. Get Deb on. Yeah, come on, Deb. Well, I will say that I haven't been to a National Park property yet in June, but I very well might this weekend go out to the Point Reyes National Seashore, and I'm really curious if I'm going to see any kind of, well, I'd like to tell you if you're going to do that, you can't wear your rock fight uniform while you're there. Okay. Why it clashes with corporate policy. Sorry, I just passed. I see what you mean. On federal land. On federal land, yeah. They know what they did because it's naked. Being naked is our uniform. You'll get arrested, buddy. Totally. Exactly. Yeah, that's totally true. Yeah. Alright, well next step. The tech world was buzzing this week after Apple announced several updates coming to iOS that will be available on iPhones starting with the iPhone 14 and all newer iterations.


Two of these updates seem to be great for enthusiasts of outdoor adventure. According to coverage of these updates and Gear Junkie, the new iOS will allow for texting to rely on satellites rather than cellular service or wifi and the much maligned Apple maps. We'll get a boost by integrating elements of all trails, but without having to pay all trails $36 fee as rock fight's leading tech correspondent. Alright. We have a huge army. I know you're the number one. You're probably looking at as Strava right now. While we're talking, how long have I sat on my ass? What are your thoughts on these developments here? I don't know. Isn't that wild? I've been thinking a lot about this since I saw this press release come out a couple of days ago. Yeah, I don't know what I think about it because my first thought is I already use my phone for Gaia and that kind of thing.


I guess I do pay for it. I don't trust that the Apple Maps will be even remotely as good unless they don't have a good track record unless they bought Gaia, which I doubt they did or something else like that. Well, they own all trails I'm assuming. Is that what it is? Or are they partnering with all trails? Do we know that? I don't think it has anything had to do with all Trails. Yeah, no, it is. They're elements of all trails. All trails is put actually. Yeah, it is. Okay. Well that's interesting because to me that might have been all trails like Bid to Stay alive, right? Because they're like all, please Apple full of a guy. We'll give away whatever we want. The first time I saw a map or a Google map that had a trail on it, I thought, oh well, third party, I guess not even third party, but these sorts of map development software businesses must be toast because if Google couldn't do it, why would you pay for Gaia?


Why would you pay for all trails? So maybe that's just all trails trying to preserve a shred of future, just trying to survive. But yeah, the partnership thing is interesting because, and I don't know enough about it, I'm not sure if it's even public, but what is the relationship between all trails and Apple in this? Was this a Apple just sort of acting on their own and then needed to make good with all trails using all trails information? Is this all trails needing Apple? I don't know enough about that, but it is. Isn't this how this always works where you have some kind of software comes up, everybody falls in love with it and then it just gets bought by Apple or Google? I mean, isn't that just kind things for Right? We were talking about that with I think it was fits. Maybe we were talking about what happened to Skype.


He's like, oh yeah, Microsoft just bought it and then just phase it out. They just absorbed it. So I mean Apple's probably going to do that with all trails, right? I mean, I hate to say it. What is the point of all trails once Apple gets ahold of its data? Well, that's it, right? I mean was all Trails going to compete with the world's biggest tech company and why is all of a sudden Apple going to be like, no, all trails, you're fine. Your brand is so important, guys, you'll be fine. We'll keep you around. We're only Apple. Yeah, so I don't know. I mean, what sucks is I'm a huge critic of basically every piece of technology that's ever been invented since 1975 for the most part. Before then was okay, but I used them before 75. Good. Yeah, fine. Yeah, when things are still largely mechanical.


That's the demarcation. I was, okay. Basically if a car had a car, if the bestselling car in the country had a carburetor up until then, it's fine after that. It's problem fuel injection was actually the start of Skynet. A lot of people don't realize this, and I'll have a special podcast on this later. That was the extended edition to the Terminator where they actually have to send John Connor back to kill the guy, the German guy that invented fuel fuel injection in Germany in 1945. But so here's my issue with that is that I don't like, I've been on the record probably I'm not a huge fan of all trails, largely because I'm not as target audience. I don't want to be influenced by where somebody else is going. I don't want, I get why it works. I get why it's so popular and I don't have a problem with it. I just don't use it. I don't want, if I'm reading about a trail and there's 45 reviews in the last week, I'm not going to that trail now. I know it's going to be crowded, so I'm not a big fan of having honeypots revealed. Is that a bad term? Isn't it a euphemism for vagina? Is it? Is it? Yeah. Okay. I'll allow it. Keep going.


I don't love the instinct to reveal that. I understand why people want to share things that get excited, but I don't want to find that through an app. I want to stumble upon these things. I want to look at a map and go, this looks interesting. I know enough about a topographic map to know that this is probably a little canyon. This is probably a drainage. It probably has cool views. This is obviously higher than this other place. That's how I like to decide where I'm going to go. I don't really want it to be crowdsourced from trail crowds, all crowds, they should call it all crowds. So anyway, where am I going with this? Is that even though I'm not a big fan of that personally, I understand why people like it, but it's like if Apple and Google do all the same, well first of all, when is Apple's going to buy Google or vice versa?


I mean, at some point we're going to have one thing that just does everything probably, and I don't like going down that road. I mean that really bums me out. So that's kind of cool, but it's also like is inReach done now? I mean, are you going to need a spot anymore? Are you use any of this? You're just going to have your phone do all these things, which is cool. I guess it's better, it's more efficient and we will probably not have a real conclusion here when it comes to the Ultras, the apple thing that's going to play out over time. The other piece of it though, using the satellites over wifi or cellular towers, that's one where it's a little more depressing, especially from your point of view. But I think we need it frankly. So reliant on the tech that we're kind of in this pickle though, where if these people you're talking about who are going out to these crowded places that they're finding on all trails and all of a sudden they find themselves in a place where your cellular phone doesn't work anymore, but they've been reliant on it the entire time.


So I think that's the most interesting development of the two. The other thing I think was it's ultimately it's going to come into a branding and legal battle probably to who owns what and then what the product ends up being. But I do think that this does mean that we're just going to become more reliant on our devices, obviously, which we already are. I don't know if it's, I guess it's probably entirely just me getting old er. I'm not willing to, I'm still using the ER there, but I guess if you're listening to this and you're thinking, what a fucking Luddite or old man yelling at clouds, I get that. I don't think there's anything to gain from this stuff. I really don't. On a human level, this is my main issue with these sorts of things. Yes, I do use Gaia occasionally while on a really deep backcountry trip.


I have the map in my phone in case I download the map. It's just a replacement for a paper map. I have the case, I need it. I'm not looking at my phone. I'm not doing any of that shit, and I always have a paper map too, even though you don't really need to, but I use the paper map first. Your phone dies. I like that. Yeah, exactly. I just feel like you're removing the parts of the experience that make these things valuable, that make these things magic, that make these things worth doing. I mean, if you're on your phone and it's the same goddamn map that gets you to your job or whatever, the same voice telling you, turn right at the trailhead. I dunno how it's going to work, but if it's the same Siri that's guiding everything else that you do, and now you're in King's Canyon with it and now they've developed starlink of their own and now it's talking to you the whole time and you're still just, it's feels like what, you've taken all the joy out of this.


You've taken actual human experience of these sorts of things out. It pisses me off. But that's subjective though, right? I mean, that's your experience. Other people may not have feel the same way, right? Is it though? I mean honestly, is it, I mean, I'm self-centered enough to wonder if that is subjective. I'm not trying to talk you out of your experience, but I don't know. I think there are people who can have just as meaningful experience and be connected in a different way. I don't know if it's going to be, I'm not trying to defend them for the sake of the argument, but I also think, I'm sure that there are people who can have a magical experience and not be as disconnected as you need to be. To have that same experience, I guess is what I'm trying to make. Yeah, you might be right. I don't like hearing that, but you might be right. You don't hearing people think differently than you. I know. No, that's fine. That's hard. I mean, that's the thing, and I wouldn't begrudge anybody for using these things, even though I just said what I said. Just to me, it's robbing things. I mean, it's like having robot umps in baseball, right? It's like, okay, sure you get all the calls, right, but half the fun is the upright or wrong yelling at the ump.


This is why I get mad at Strava. I don't need my outdoor experiences to be brutally efficient. That's the last thing I need or the last thing I want. I come somewhere in the middle in this because I think there is some element of what you're saying that is true because I feel like there is a black and white nature to what you get out of the outdoors and being in the moment and not being, if you're out there and you're looking at TikTok instead of looking at your surroundings and yeah, what are you doing? What's the point? Don't think it's that. My point is not that you're connected all the time, it's more that you're not using your own human faculties and I see your own brain to figure out what you're doing and where you're going. It really isn't about because I mean, I'll tell you right now, if I'm backpacking and I happen to, this never happened, but if I happen to stumble onto a peak that had perfect cell service and I'm done for the day, I'd watch a Dodgers game on my phone and I wouldn't feel weird about it at all.


It's not the being connected. It's when I'm discovering things on my own. That is a far more rewarding experience than if I'm hiking to a point that 30,000 other people said was cool on all trails. That's just completely different experience, so I'll revise my pushback because I think what you're saying right there, that makes all the sense in the world, you need to have attaining that level of self-sufficiency, attaining the knowledge of it and the rewards that come with that. However, I think that this is probably the path where to get to where you want people to be, this how they're now going to travel that path. They're going to go on those hikes and that could be the case and it might be a gateway and eventually, I don't like this. I want to find it on my own, and that's awesome. I probably did that my own, and I'm not saying I did it the right way.


I realize it sounds like, no, you did the way that was available. Not what I'm saying. These things weren't available to us when we were coming up and doing these things. This is like I had a map because that's what you could get like, oh, okay, here's the map. There's the trail on the map. Follow the trail. I also think it's worth pointing out that it's, we need as consumers, we need to factor in the cost of these kinds of things. So maybe it's free on your phone. That's great. Do you know someone that works at all trails? Do you know somebody that works at Gaia? Their job is now probably in danger. Maybe that's crazy. Maybe that's being way too, maybe I'm asking too much of how things work, but I just feel like we're just caught up in this sweeping wave to make everything more efficient based on how fast computers can calculate these things, and at a certain point we're going to look around and go, well, shit, none of us have anything to do.


It just seems like a really, really depressing place. I got a more important question for you though. Yo, you can have Robo Umps or every ump is Angel Hernandez. I want to yell at Angel Hernandez. That's fun. That is so fun. He's cop. The compilation videos are so, I mean, why would you want to pull when the batter looks like, are you fucking kidding me? The catcher gets that about to throw the ball back and they do the pump fake. Are you fucking serious? And they throw. That's the fun part of baseball. I'm with you on this. I feel like we're at the tipping point in that either wipe out technology, I don't want to hear reviews anymore. Give it all I want replays. Yeah, either it's not real. This is all for fun. And so when you have replays, it's like either live with the human mistakes or make it completely accurate all of the time.


I don't want in between. I don't want to go like, well, if they had reviewed it, they would've overturned it. Like, no, no, no. We're either all one or all the other. That's how I think about that. Okay. Hypothetical. Yeah. What if Angel Hernandez is the, not only just the voice but actually navigating for you on your Siri Apple map, so you don't have any idea. You're like, shit, is that the right way? How many miles? Fuck, I don't know. Alright man. Well, lastly, according to Explorer's Web 54-year-old Austin Base, Veronica Sosa completed the 264 mile Texas water safari on a standup paddleboard in 97 hours and 14 minutes, 9 7 97 hours. That was also less than three hours before the cutoff time. This was her seventh time finishing the Safari, but her first on a paddleboard instead of a canoe. In the article, they detailed that this event follows the San Marcos in Guadalupe Rivers from central Texas to the Gulf of Mexico where the paddlers face heat, rapids log jams, mosquitoes, mud, alligators, and of course exhaustion.


What about bales of razor wire? Is that happening in this river? I know we got to make this harder and you may get murdered by the border patrol. We're just going to add it's the most Texas thing of all time. Yeah, big congrats to Veronica. Of course. Why are some, I'm reading this and I'm just getting so stoked for her, and I'm like, why are some of these big adventure swings? There's really incredible and inspiring and others. I'm just like, that is the dumbest thing. I would never do that. You're an idiot for even trying. Well, I have a great example to throw it you in a minute, but I want, before I get there, have you heard of this? Have we talked about this Texas water safari before? I saw a YouTube video of some dude who had done it as in a tandem kayak or something like that.


This is a brutal event. It's fucking brutal. It is insane. If you watch any documentary or anything about this, the people look like death. I mean, they all look just finished the Barkley and just as traumatized by it. So amazing. I want to to know, did she have to stand up the entire time it said that she kneeled. She was up in that knee. Oh my gosh. Paddle paddling knee. Gosh, she would not have made it if she had to stand the whole time. It was kind of her own rules. I think something like this is rad because this is obviously, she's a paddleboard enthusiast, I presume she's not a professional paddle boarder. It's just who isn't inspired by people just taking on these, I mean low stakes in the sense you're probably not going to die, but just brutally difficult thing that doesn't really have any obvious benefits.


Just to see if they can do it. I mean, it's pretty damn cool. I mean, how many people run marathons? A trillion. How many have done this? Not many. I think that's pretty damn cool. And she's 54. That's sick. Yeah. That's great for her. I mean, God, I wonder if I've paddled 264 miles in my life. Damn it. Okay. As much as I just finished talking about not liking Strava, I would love to know how far I've paddled in my life. That would be really cool to know. This is like when you want to see the pile of food that you've eaten in your life. Yes, it's exactly the same thing. I wish that there was, maybe you could get a microchip and I don't need a readout. I don't. It's just there for, I want it and it could somehow tell me, it's like a dog chip.


The, it's just like it's in there and you can access the information. It's feel like it. I could access it, but I don't need a obsess TV on there all the time. I have no idea how far I've paddled for a little bit. I had a device, I tested it out a long time ago. I think it was called Trace. They may still exist in snow sports, I'm not sure. But you put it on your surfboard and you had something else that you wore. I don't quite remember. And using satellites, of course, it would trace what you did. And so would I remember what it did. If you had a GoPro, it would connect to it and it knew when you took off on a wave and it would turn your GoPro on and it would film it and it would analyze, it would show the data over the video of you doing it.


And so you could go first a surf and it would show, you'd have your GoPro footage, and I would usually have it on my head and it would show how fast I was going. It'd be like, here's the speed. And then if you did a turn, it would tell you the angles of the turn. It was kind of neat, but the only thing I cared about at all was the paddling, because it would show little marks. How, I don't remember. I think one day I did 11 miles. I think that's a shit. And this just a normal session and all these squiggly lines back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and that part was really cool. But yeah, I don't know. I wouldn't mind having that again. Do you want to go back and rerecord the apple thing that we just did?


Now that you're all about technology? Do you want to start that over or, yeah, I've changed my mind all. I bet I could work myself up into such a pro tech. You're just going to go the other way now. Four seconds. Let's just record both of them and then what the viewers, the listeners. That was mildly interesting. Not enough to deal with all the crap. Yeah, exactly. And if you got competitive about it, it would be weird. But anyway. Anyway, that's a really, really, really long way of the paddle. So let me ask you, you've done seven times. That's great. So I'm going to add this to the mix. A couple weeks ago we debated, I'm not going to talk about which one's hardest, but which one would you do? So we talked about Everest versus the Faron Island swim. I'm glad you brought this up.


Yes, yes. Now let's put in this paddle. You got to do gunpoint. You got to do one of those three things. Which one you going to do? The paddle. Oh, the Faron Island Swim or climb Everest. What do you think? Probably the paddle. Yeah, dude. The paddle. I mean, I can't do that. I think this would be way harder than you. At least the swim's going to be over in a day. Yeah, but you physically can't. You would die. I don't know if I could physically do. I guess you could. Okay. Maybe I could. Do you have to do this or is it like if you tap out, you tap out? Is it like which one are you most likely to survive if you actually have to? I think it's that. Do it. If you could tap out, if you cares. I have a far better chance of bleeding the paddle than I do.


Yeah, you're right. Swimming the fair lawns or climbing Everest? Everest. I would panic and die pretty quick. Everest? I would die quickly. Again, the whole thing about Everest says you could die and you could do everything right and die. I mean, you'd just be like, Hey, your brain is bleeding now. The moment I was like, oh wow, I'm at 25,000 feet. I've never seen anything like this before. This is really alien and weird and it's also, I'm in the desk. I would just die of panic right at that moment. There's no question about it. The paddling will just get monotonous as shit. This will be tough though, man. A hundred hours. The cutoff is a hundred hours. Do you ever read the Stephen King story? The Long Walk? You mentioned this one before. I need to read it. Fuck. Well, I'll re it again. All these little boys.


I think there might be girls actually. I think about kids and it's almost like a game show and it's like, I don't dunno, 50 of 'em, a hundred of 'em. And they just start walking and then it's over. When the last one is still walking, everyone else dies. And if they stop, they get shot. But it would be kind of like that, I guess, where I could probably paddle for a really long way if I thought once I stopped paddling I was going to die. Well, congrats to Veronica. Nice work. Is that a little downer? Is that a downer on Veronica?


Alright man, we can wrap it up there. What else going on? We talked about what we're doing this weekend. We're going to see you on Monday when this episode comes out. We're actually be hanging out. I think I'm going to just paddle to Utah now after listening to that story. Is that possible? Can I just make a really wild route there on water all the way? There must be some way to do it. No, there's no way to do. There's no way. It's not how it works. Yeah. Nevada's a little dry. Yeah, but I would Too bad otherwise I would. If there's a way just directly there, leave right now. That would be your weekend. Then you would do more this weekend. I would do way more this weekend. All right. The rock fights of production of rock. Fight LLC, our producer today and every day. This is David Kasad for Justin Hausman. I'm Colin Tru. Thanks for listening here to take us out. It's Krista Makes with the Rock Fight Fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters. Yay.

Chris DeMakes (42:09):

We go into the rock bike where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human power outdoor activities. Then pick bikes are about topics that we find interesting, like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Welcome to the the.


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