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Electronic Clothing, Belt Buckles, Listener Mailbag & Pickleball Corner

Welcome back to THE ROCK FIGHT an outdoor podcast where we aim for the head!

First up, Justin Housman was supposed to be backpacking through Yosemite National Park but instead he's on THE ROCK FIGHT. Find out what happened.

Then we open up the mailbag as Colin & Justin respond to listener feedback and questions.

Finally Colin & Justin go through this weeks outdoor headlines including a new line from Primus, new belt buckles from Arcade, the release of an on water navigation app from NRS, the role of electronics in clothing and a check in on the state of Pickleball Corner.

Have a question or comment for a future mailbag episode? Send it to or send a message on Instagram or Threads.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT (this transcript was automatically produced and may contain typos and errors from the original audio):

Colin (00:00):

This episode of the Rock Flight is brought to you by Gear Trade since 1999, gear has been your go-to home for a new outdoor gear and apparel. You know you have that jacket packer tent that has been left out of your past few adventures. Why not load it all in a box like gear Trade? Sell it for you. Heck, they'll even send you a box and a free shipping label. It's that easy to get cash money for all the stuff you are not using. Head to gear and click the sell your gear tab to learn more. Gear Ready to pick a fight. It's time for the Rock Fight Fight song. Let's go. Rockside,

Chris DeMakes (00:38):

Rockside. Rock bike. Rock Fight, Rockside. We go to the rock bike where we speak our truth, stay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human power, outdoor activities and big bikes about topics that we find interesting, like my culture, music, the latest movie reviews. And for the head, this is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Flag, flag rock back through. Welcome to the welcome,

Colin (01:34):

Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth. Slay sacred cows sometimes. Agree to disagree. I'm Colin. True. And joining me today, his big blue zamberlan look as good in his living room as they do in the mountains. It's Justin Hausman

Justin (01:47):

Because he's my emotional support puppy with me this morning. Couldn't

Colin (01:50):

Even put a shirt on 'cause he should be in the mountains. What happened, man?

Justin (01:53):

Weather looked bad. I, uh,

Colin (01:54):

Yeah, you're not supposed to be here this week.

Justin (01:56):

Yeah, I'm not supposed to be here. I, but, you know. Okay, so here's the thing. I've spent a lot of time complaining about, uh, having to get permits in Yosemite. I've never backpacked in Yosemite. 'cause the permitting process seems, uh, just complicated. And, and I, yeah, I don't, I've changed my mind. I have the drop of a hat. I, I don't like, I I I don't like being like, tied down to things. And so, you know, to get a wilderness permit in Yosemite, you either have to get one like six months in advance or like a week in advance. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you can also walk up. But like, you know, a week in advance, the ones start popping up that are available. But you have to know the trailhead. You gotta know your first night's camping, all these things. And that's just a lot of research.

(02:33) Um, and, uh, I usually like just showing up and I guess you could do this and hope a permit's available, but I love just showing up at a ranger station and being like, I need a permit. Where am I going? Where's what, what, what's good right now? Yeah. You know, and so anyway, I've never gone, I've never back backed Yosemite, but I got a permit for this week and, um, I actually got a bunch because I was like, oh, this is available. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I'm just gonna grab a bunch and then kind of research it later. And, uh, but the weather just looks shitty. It looks like it's gonna be thunderstorms all weekend. And, uh, turns out you could just, just got on the permit for next week. So, you know, there you go. Hope for better weather. But, um, you know, I like a mountain thunder. I like a mountain thunderstorm. I don't like it when they're forecast. In my experience in Sierra, if it's forecast, it happens. Like there's, you know, if it, if it just pops up on a normal day, that's great. That's beautiful. But like, all day long when you're just kind of waiting like, shit, I gotta get to the next site to set up beforehand. Like, uh, you know, and like, yeah. I don't know. Yeah.

Colin (03:23):

And you can be flexible for some people. Flexible. I'm sure if you, this was the window and you had to go, you'd be there right

Justin (03:27):

Now. Yeah. I mean, if it was, well, of course, you know, if I had a nine to five and it was like, this is the weekend I have off. But that's the benefit of not having a real job.

Colin (03:35):

Well, so today we're gonna start off actually with a mailbag. We got a couple of responses to last week's show. And the first one was very short. It was in response to my little diatribe about my, my retail experience in Bishop. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, should I say the name of the retailer? You think we should say it? Because it's in the, basically it was really short. I don't think

Justin (03:53):

So. You know what? I don't think so. No.

Colin (03:55):

Okay. Well then, we'll me keep it short. Basically it was, the person guessed the name of the retailer. That's all the email was, was it Ex Retailer? And they were right, mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And apparently, uh, there's a reputation.

Justin (04:07):

Well, see that's the thing. You, we, you don't wanna mention the name because now it might give people more reason to write in and be like, they're gonna want to guess.

Colin (04:15):

Okay, that's a good point. Do you have any guesses? So, you

Justin (04:17):

Know, like, isn't the owner's fault, like hire, I like, I don't, that's tough. You know, like the kid, the kids that work there don't, they don't give a shit. So like, if nobody goes in there ever again because of our podcast, enormous reach and uh, you know, they're,

Colin (04:31):

I hope they hear it. I like they, they weren't, they were not young. I mean, they were definitely more close to, I

Justin (04:36):

Keep saying kids 'cause I assume that Yeah, that's

Colin (04:38):

Totally, and I, I, not to just keep railing on them, I'm gonna put a social media post up about it. You know, I, I definitely, uh, well I put that on LinkedIn. I guess I should put it up on Instagram too. But it's, I I just love that it made me feel a little bit better about my behavior. I thought maybe I kept thinking like, God, was I coming off poorly, but then I went to that next door and it was great. So I, you know, like, well, it's

Justin (04:57):

Not the, I mean like, I need to be there with you to see exactly what happened, because I'm only getting it from yours for all I know you walked in there with a giant flashing light that was just like, huge fucking kook. Like, I don't know.

Colin (05:09):

That's exactly what I thought. You

Justin (05:10):

Know, like, what if you did, I, I'd be surprised. But Bishop might have rules about things You can and can't wear, things you can and can't do. I want, take your side. I'm taking your side. But also, um, you know, there's a hardcore crusty surf local in me that, that is all that's naturally on the side of the locals no matter what happens. So well experience, I dunno, experience. Maybe, maybe you had your hat on wrong. Like, I, I don't know.

Colin (05:33):

I could have, uh, I definitely tend to wear, I'm definitely, I can be a little childish and wear it backwards at a time every once

Justin (05:38):

In while. Did you have that Fenway hat on? I did. They

Colin (05:40):

Hate No, the East Coast. Yeah. It wasn't my, it wasn't my Fenway hat, but the Sage, the summit. I'll say that. That was the one I went to next. And they were wonderful. So that's

Justin (05:47):

A great name. That's a really nice name, great name.

Colin (05:49):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. They were great. So I, I definitely, maybe I, even if I was coming off poorly, I still feel like it's on the retailer to, to accommodate the customer. And the next, and the next retailer was great. So it wasn't a hundred percent me. Anyway. I thought that was funny though, that there was an immediate guess by somebody saying, oh, was it this place that they were?

Justin (06:04):

And they were, well, well, one, are there two, one are there like two outdoor stores in Bishops? So

Colin (06:08):

That's true. I probably just said the name of them by not saying the name of them by saying Exactly.

Justin (06:11):

I wanna compliment Sage to Summit for, uh, I realize it's common to have like a plate, you know, X two Y or whatever in the mountain earring sort of space. But not calling it Sage and Summit. Like, thank you Sage to summit. Like, I'm so tired of something and something else. Names in this world. Agree.

Colin (06:26):

So I agree. Great job. And all of their vows were in the words. They didn't go like sg

Justin (06:30):

You know, summit wasn't like an upside down, like Delta symbol or something. Yeah, that's

Colin (06:34):

An thing people know. Like, what did we call the segment last week? You know, Haman's, just knock it off or just stop. Is that what, just stop with Justin

Justin (06:40):

Houseman. Like

Colin (06:41):

<laugh> <laugh>. And then we got another, uh, email. This one's a little longer. It was from Philip. Uh, he's throwing a couple of rocks at us. Rock number one. He writes, he says he enjoys the show. So thank you Philip. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, thanks. But number one, you ready for this?

Justin (06:54):

I don't know.

Colin (06:55):

I don't know if you, this might be the whole podcast after I read this for you. Okay. Let's hear it. Justin specifically calls you out. Chill out on the Tacoma saturation. It's gonna be okay. Don't let it ruin your day.

Justin (07:07):

That's okay with me. That's fine. Tacoma, Phil, I get it.

Colin (07:10):

Well, this is, this is someone, this is coming from someone who lives next to the city of Tacoma. I used to live up there

Justin (07:14):

Too. Oh, does he think I'm talking? Wait a minute. Wait a minute, wait.

Colin (07:17):

And I swear people feel obligated to own these things. Okay, thank you. What I do pick a rock fight with is the use of indigenous names for these gas guzzlers. Just change the name to Magnum or Lt Gray. Probably do better in focus groups.

Justin (07:30):

That's funny. LT grave would be badass.

Colin (07:33):

That's a great name for a car actually. Yeah. And then rock number two, I may, I might've missed it, but have you really gone this long and haven't talked about the scourge of foiling? No one needs an invisible katana swords slicing through the surf breaks at 20 miles per hour. Especially when mounted by tech bro. Kooks.

Justin (07:48):

Well, yeah.

Colin (07:50):

Yeah. We've got talks foiling. What are your what

Justin (07:52):

Your thoughts. Yeah. And I'm deeply conflicted because it, like, when you're out at a spot that makes sense for foiling and guys are good, I've never actually seen bad foiling. So I don't know. Surely that's a thing somewhere. Like you have to learn. Thankfully in my experience, people are learning in places where there aren't other people, which is good. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But, um, when you're out at a wave that that is, that likes a foil, so like a kind of a, you know, a fat wave that's not really throwing. Um, and that just kind of peels for a long time. Man, it looks fun. Like it looks real, real fun. And I, I'd love to have that in my bag just to be able to do that. Um, but I don't, there's no way in hell I'm learning. And,

Colin (08:29):

Uh, I was gonna say, what does it take? The

Justin (08:30):

Concept is terrifying to me. Yeah.

Colin (08:32):

I think my, all my experience with foiling is watching like Kai Lenny's, you know, Instagram videos. So like what are Well,

Justin (08:38):


Colin (08:38):

Yeah. And that's what I mean. Right? So, but what, what is the, what are the conditions? What do you need to be? Go out on

Justin (08:43):

A foil. You need a, you need a, you need a wave that isn't really like, well, it depends. I mean, you can ride a foil and probably just buy anything, but you need, you need a wave that isn't a closeout. You need a wave that's probably not a top to bottom barrel un unless you're like way out in front of it, that's fine. But they, they seem like I've all, I've people ride foils at the spot where I like to surf up by my place. 'cause it's kind of a longboard zone. Mm-hmm. And so you get all lot warbly waves that kinda lurch and back off and lurch and back off. But there's still energy under the, you know, under the water. So you can just cruise on these things to do these huge swooping turns for like hundreds of yards. It looks like a blast. Um, you know? Mm-hmm. Once you start getting into where, like I've, I've surfed in Waikiki and there's like dudes on foils that are just like cruising around tourists. And that's, they're good, but it's scary.

Colin (09:26):


Justin (09:27):

Um, uh, but even then, like you just, you want kind of a, they work so they're really great for mellow unbroken waves or waves that don't break hard enough to really enjoy it on a surfboard. I mean, that's what their, that's what their ideal situation is. But again, I've never, I've never seen someone just struggling on one. So I don't know. That must, I'm sure that's happening all over the place and it's probably really, really scary. Uh, but I mean, there, there're a giant metal, multiple metal blades under the water. Yeah. So like, you know, I do know that from some of the guys I've talked to, you know, the learning curve is gnarly because when you fall you may hit it and people do they hurt themselves badly. Oh yeah. You know, but it's, it is kind of a miracle. No one's been decapitated yet.

Colin (10:03):

Uh, yeah. Well obviously Philip must have some experience here. 'cause it is like, that is something that I, if you saw somebody show up at a place and they weren't sure what they were doing and didn't have the good judgment to not, to not go where there weren't other people that could get ugly. Yeah,

Justin (10:17):

For sure. And I, that's gotta be happening in places. I just, thankfully where I live, I haven't seen that yet. But, uh, you know, I just,

Colin (10:23):

That's just not even on the radar for me. Like, I watch these videos, I'm like, I can't even, like, you know, I wouldn't, I don't even trust myself on a

Justin (10:29):

Longboard. No, it's definitely, it's definitely like an expert level thing. Like, you don't, you're not getting on a foil unless you've served for a super long time. I would think. I mean, I'm sure you could, but like,

Colin (10:38):

There is something to though those videos though, when you watch someone who's good at it. And it's like, even if you, like, if you watch a good surfer, it's like, wow, that looks really like aspirational. I wanna do that. But the foiling just looks like, like, holy crap, that looks fun. It

Justin (10:48):

Does. The only, the only, like, I, my, my thing is with surfing has always been, I like the most minimal approach possible. Uh mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And like, even though foiling, there's not like a motor, there's not, uh, like I would never go kite surfing 'cause it's just I who wants to deal with all that shit. Like, that's just a lot of crap. Like, I don't want that. Yeah. Same thing with like, like wi like what do you even call like a wind board? Whatever the old school one's called that had sails on 'em. I don't even know what that's called anymore. Windsurfing. Windsurfing, thank you. Like that. Even that, like, I'm sure that's fun, but it just looks too complicated. I don't even like to wear a leash unless I have to. So, uh, you know, like I just want the most minimal situation possible. And a and a foil is already adding like, complication to it.

Colin (11:26):

All right. So we're gonna send, that's a good

Justin (11:27):

Question, Phil. I don't know. I just, honestly, I just prefer that people stay the fuck away from me when I'm surfing anyway. Foil or not. So like, I don't really wanna

Colin (11:35):

See that should be the general, that should be the disposition. I mean, like, I don't know. I went out to a place I thought was gonna relatively empty the other day and there was a lot of people there and I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna hang over here because I just don't wanna, 'cause of course it's a busy day. Most of the people, it's a pretty easy break. And it was a, it was a small day, but there's still the one guy who's just catching every single wave and surfing in between everybody else. And I'm like, I don't wanna be near that guy, number one. And I don't wanna be the guy that hurts anybody else. I'm just gonna go over here where it's breaking a little less than it is over there and be by myself.

Justin (12:01):

God bless you. God bless you.

Colin (12:03):

Anyway, yeah, Philip, thanks for the email. Appreciate it. Thanks. If you wanna be, have your email read here on the rock fight, my rock is where you send it. Please send it in where we wanna do more reader emails. We're getting more and more of 'em every week. And we're gonna read the good ones. So, uh, send it in my rock What do you think about the, the, the Tacoma situation? Land cruisers, whatever. Send it over.

Justin (12:23):

Yeah, if you wanna hear me, you know, if you wanna hear me just rail on your vehicle choice, which I'm happy to do. Please

Colin (12:29):

If you wanna hear Justin have an aneurysm live on. I was

Justin (12:32):

Just this morning, just this morning on Facebook trying to talk somebody outta buying a Tacoma. So this is very ap. Very, very good timing. Am

Colin (12:38):

I? Well, let's talk about some outdoor headlines. We got a bunch of stuff that happened in the industry this week. Uh, I think we're gonna start, we'll start gear, because you're going backpacking. I saw there was a, there was a, a press release put out, um, by Primus. They're launching a new stove system. Did you see that this week?

Justin (12:52):

I did not, but I looked at it and I, I definitely like Primus and I like the set. I like the sort of nesting, self-contained stove system was usually works super good.

Colin (13:02):

Yeah. It's the, the Alti stove system. It's a wind resistant cooking solution. And you know, the kind of thing I thought that was interesting to bring up beyond, I mean, obviously neither of us have u used it, so we don't have a lot of opinions about the thing itself, but you know, we talked a lot. We talk a lot and some of that is probably more 'cause of me and my background, but like about soft goods and, you know, some of the issues in the industry, but hard goods innovation is often more real, you know, than soft goods. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I think it sometimes takes a backseat 'cause more people c care about clothes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But if you wanna see real innovation and stuff that people are constantly doing to make the outdoor experience better, like the hard goods is where to look.

Justin (13:38):

Well dude, like, like camp, like backpacking or expedition level, whatever you wanna call it. Cooking systems have gotten so good in the last like, few years. I mean, it's insane. I feel like everybody's kind of, I mean Jet, I don't think, I dunno, was Jet Boy the first to do the sort of the like kind of

Colin (13:54):

Cylinder contained, contain super fast boiling

Justin (13:56):

Contain. Yeah. And like that, like, so everybody's kind of doing that now and you don't have to have that sort of thing. It's just awesome that that's like an option. And like, you know, titanium pots are way cheaper than they used to be. You don't even, I mean like anodized aluminum is almost as light and works just as good. Like Yeah. There's just so many awesome setups. And like, this one I love, this is the, um, forget what you call it, but it's not like a, it's not like a direct flame, like a single, it's like a, like a radiated heat or something like that. Like the, the, all the heat comes out of a circle that's probably like, I'm guessing looking at like three and a half inches in diameter. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I have one from M Ss R. And um, they're way more efficient and they're way less prone to getting blown out. 'cause you don't have like a single blue flame coming up. Like it's just the whole thing gets hot. Um, and so they don't blow out that easily and they boil water so fast and they're just, they're just awesome to use. And like, this one looks dope as hell and Primus stuff is about as good as it gets.

Colin (14:47):

You gonna try it out?

Justin (14:48):

Probably. Yeah. I'd love to. I mean, everything I get from Primus, I'm always like, wow. It's kinda like snow peak and you're like, well this is incredibly well designed <laugh>. Um, like someone who actually like, gives a shit made this. But Prius's stuff is always burier. Like pri I mean, Primus has been around for, they're like the first camp stove company they've been around for. Really? Yeah. Primus has been around for super, super long time.

Colin (15:08):

There you go.

Justin (15:09):


Colin (15:10):

Go Primus and talk about other innovations. This one kind of caught my eye was arcade, but you're familiar with arcade belts?

Justin (15:17):

Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I ca I'm just not, I just don't care about belts. I'm, I'm familiar with them. I actually think I may have done some early copywriting for them when they first came out. I think I might have. Okay. But yeah, so I'm, so

Colin (15:28):

I put out a release this week that they're on a mission to revolutionize how a belt can function and move. And they announced its new a two buckle, the first introduced with select styles in spring 2023. And available across the brands adventure range, performance stretch belts. I think I have an arcade belt that I use on a pair of, uh, cycling shorts that I use. I, but I, I just, how kinda excited can you be about a new innovation on a belt buckle? Well,

Justin (15:51):

I'm looking at it and it looks like every seatbelt buckle, it looks like an, I don't know, like this, the, the dual tabs on the side. I mean, I don't understand what's so unique about that.

Colin (16:02):

My takeaway from this is like, look, I'm, they have something new to talk about. That's great. You know, I, I see the value of like, if you're gonna have something with pants, uh, that needs, that requires a, uh, a belt, like great, I get it. But wouldn't they be better served by more doing like, kind of almost like a pit fiber style marketing approach versus just trying to get, be gearhead pumped about a belt.

Justin (16:21):

Right. A belt buckle. I mean, God, it, are there people out there, they're like, you know what that looks, fuck that belt, that buckle technology. Have you seen that? Wow. That makes it more easy to cinch. I mean, I don't <laugh> I don't

Colin (16:31):


Justin (16:32):

They do have a Santa Cruz skateboards one. How amazing is that?

Colin (16:36):

I don't know. It just seems like a, in the best case scenario here, it's like, oh, that's cool. Is maybe the best you could get somebody, somebody to be excited

Justin (16:43):

About a belt. Yeah. Like Yeah. But I like, I've never, I've never really chosen a belt based on the bat. Like how it fastens, you know. Well I go, I look at, I I would not pick one if it was overly complicated or stupid. I have some like 6, 8, 6 belts

Colin (16:58):


Justin (16:59):

That have like, you know, mul like tools in the, or like, you know, the, the clasps or whatever, or like a flathead screwdriver, you know, and it's like, I'm never ever gonna use these tools for this. Right. But, you know, and I barely tolerate them. 'cause it's like, I, I'd rather this is just a normal belt, you know, I just forget, like the part is fine. Like the part that holds my pants up is great. I just don't care about that sort of thing. Yeah. I

Colin (17:20):

Think, think you look at like, look at baseball players been wearing the same belts in the major leagues for like a hundred years. Very good point. You know, like I'm wearing a leather belt right now that if I wore this belt mountain biking, I don't think I'd notice. You know, it's like,

Justin (17:31):

It's still a utility belts like Batman style. I've never been, I've never actually looked at, let's see, see the utility belt looks just like every other belt. There's no, there's no like compartments for things come on.

Colin (17:41):

Oh, are you on their website?

Justin (17:42):

Yeah. If you have a utility belt, it needs compartments. Right.

Colin (17:46):

See that's what I mean. Like you need, I think the, the brand advice I'd give these guys, like if you wanna be able to be excited about this, don't talk about the innovation. Like the innovation thing we talked about on a lot of things is pretty tired. That's why I was just making a point like, hey, hard goods. That's kind of cool. Yeah. This is sort of, this is soft goods and it's an accessory. Yeah. So yeah, like if I'm an outdoor retailer, maybe I'm, I'm gonna get some arcade belts, but it's like, make it a rev. Make people wanna be interested in what you're doing because you are interesting. Not because your product is interesting. 'cause your product really isn't that interesting. It's belts.

Justin (18:13):

I am surprised that their belts aren't a hundred dollars. I mean like, that's kind of what I thought they would be like 40 bucks. That seems they got a lot of belts for like 25 bucks. 35 bucks. Makes sense. That's shockingly cheap.

Colin (18:23):

Well to again, to my point, don't go after renovation then you're selling like basically costs appropriate belts. Yeah. For adventury people. Yeah. Make people just wanna wear your stuff. 'cause you're cool, not because you're so innovative. That'd be my

Justin (18:36):

Are you into, are you into, like I've seen those pictures of you with like bright green sunglasses on. Are you into like belts that like pop?

Colin (18:43):

Uh, no, I don't care. I mean, I think really I think of the, the, the green, uh, sunglasses are just, 'cause I was buying a new pair of gooders and I'm like, oh, I'll get some green ones, you know, and they were 20

Justin (18:51):

Bucks. Like, you're never gonna see my belt. Like I, I've never, that's it. I'm never tucking, I don't tuck. I haven't tucked a shirt in other than at like a wedding in at least 15 years. And if I am, I'm not gonna be wearing one that's like, I'll bright purple and pink. You know, my belt isn't gonna be, you're not, if I'm gonna, if you're gonna see my belt, it's gonna be like muted. I don't, yeah. I don't know. Yeah. It's not, this isn't for me. This isn't for me. No.

Colin (19:12):

I, I think innovation is the wrong, uh, ploy here. Uh, RK belts, um, one of the, what I do think is a is the right ploy though for, uh, n r s and On Water launched a new navigation app, which is, which I didn't even realize that this was a, a need. I thought this was interesting. So Northwest River supplies. Yeah. The on water launched navigation app for paddlers. While other adventure sports have long benefited from widely used mobile technologies, paddle sports has been left behind. That seems like a glaring miss. Right.

Justin (19:40):

Totally. I, I thought about that.

Colin (19:42):

I would've assumed too, yeah. That my whatever app I have on my phone would probably work if I wanted to go kayaking, but I guess not.

Justin (19:48):

Well I, it probably does. If you are, uh, the kind of per, if you're a good enough kayaker or experience stuff that you can look at, uh, topo or something and be like, right. Or even a satellite image, it'd be like, oh, I, I know exactly where a putout would be. Or put in, I'm sorry, put in takeout, put in. Is that how Yeah.

Colin (20:05):

Right. Yeah. Put in takeout. Put

Justin (20:07):

In takeout. Like I know, I could tell and like bends in the river, you can probably tell like, you know, where there's gonna be a rapid or, or whatever. But yeah. This seems like a super obvious thing.

Colin (20:16):

I it is I think leads to a larger conversation on sort of outdoor navigation and G p s I mean, so I guess when you're out next week, are you gonna be using any sort of g p s or app on your phone? Yeah,

Justin (20:26):

No, I do. I do. I I fought it for a long time. 'cause I, I learned how to, I honestly, my skills are so bad. I don't even know if I could orient anymore. But I, I learned how do, like proper orienteering with a topo a long time ago. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I, and I bring an orienter compass with me just 'cause I like to screw around with it. And you never really, you know, you never know what could happen. But, um, right. But no, I, I, I use, I use Gaia like pretty much regularly. I mean like, I guess there might be times where it's kind of fun to not know where you are, but it just doesn't, it just, it's just too damn easy, you know? Yeah. Like I, I always have a topo with me in case my, you know, I lose my phone or something. But like, uh,

Colin (21:03):

I don't know. Like I, I I, I get where it's too far into this world. I don't you, I dunno if you people can even go outside anymore without kind of having that, you know, it's like, are we, are we beyond I, what does it, what do we lose if you lose satellite reception? Right. I mean, I guess people, a lot of people getting lost in the woods.

Justin (21:18):

Well, there'd be way fewer people out there. I mean, that's the thing. Yeah. That's

Colin (21:21):

Probably true.

Justin (21:22):

If you, because the thing is, if you wanna have that experience without that stuff, you just don't bring your phone. That's really easy. Right. You know, like, I don't take my phone with me around here 'cause I can't possibly get lost even if I don't know the trails or whatever. I know if you just walk south or whatever, you're gonna hit a town, you know, or whatever. But like, um, you know, it's like I often, I I I will look at G P s all the time when I'm not, I mean I never really get lost in the back country. Right. I have, but it's exceedingly rare. But I just want, you know, like where am I? Like how much longer do I have to go? Like, like, oh, let's look at like, what's that peak? You know? Like I'm always looking at it and I just dunno why you wouldn't, you know, I mean <crosstalk> No.

Colin (21:57):

And I would imagine that the people, people who aren't, no one's gonna be like, oh, I'll get into going hiking because I know I have a G P S that'll help me where to go. It's almost like it's the, now you get in the hiking first and then you realize like, oh, I can add these things to my experience. It'll help me be safer. Yeah. And have a more pleasurable time.

Justin (22:12):

Um, but you will see people sometimes that are just like walking, looking at their phone and like, first you're, at first you're like, oh, what are you like on TikTok? And you're, oh no, they're actually just looking at theirselves on g p Well,

Colin (22:22):

Like this, this trip you and I are gonna do. Like, if I didn't, if I weren't going with you, I would definitely have the map downloaded on the app and I'd probably be, I'd have it on my bike. Just kind of helping me follow around. Right. I mean, it's kind of like that's, that's typically if you're in a new spot.

Justin (22:33):

Well, I've like, I've definitely had trips in the last few years. Well, I haven't gone backpacking for a while, but, um, even with car camping, well car camping, this happens all the time. 'cause I, I don't really, like, if I'm going backpacking, I'm usually, I'm either going to a place I already know really well mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I don't, I'm not worried about it. And I almost certainly have that like, map already on my phone anyway. But even if I didn't, I don't really need it. Like, I know where I kind of, I'm going or I'm day hiking from a car camping situation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in that case often I won't have a map downloaded 'cause I don't, it feels safer. Like I don't feel like I'm even, which is stupid 'cause I'm just as, I'm just as remote. I just didn't walk there <laugh>.

(23:09) You know, so like Right. Um, so in that like, there'd be times where I'm like day hiking and I realize, oh, I don't have a, I don't have, I don't have a map or a g p s of where I am at all. So you just kind of like use your wits, you know, like Yeah, I know it's, I know you can get obviously like good map readers and co and like experienced outdoors people get lost. I know that that can happen. Yeah. I still think that's crazy. Um, at least in good conditions, you know, like I still don't, uh, you know, knock on wood, I, the only time that's happened is I've been lost on a trail. Like where I'm on a trail that isn't the trail I thought it, and I dunno where it goes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or I've been lost where a trail I was on turns out to have been an old trail. And you get to a spot and it, it doesn't go anymore. And you're like, oh fuck. You

Colin (23:54):

Know? I'm like, yeah, but you're still on a trail. It's gonna lead somewhere.

Justin (23:56):

It lead somewhere. Right. Yeah. So I I've never just been like off trail in the trees and you're like, oh shit, I have no idea where I like, that's gotta be an absolutely terrifying experience. <laugh>, I don't know. Anyway, I, that's a long way of saying I think, I think, uh, any, all these like mapping apps are dope. I mean, I don't love the fact that they probably increase crowds and I don't,

Colin (24:14):

That's, I don't know if they do. I feel like the people have to get there before they even realize it. I don't know. Or maybe not. Maybe. I think,

Justin (24:18):

I think that's largely true. I do think, like, I've been using, I've been using all trails a lot for the one thing I do think it's good for, which is trip reports, like mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Otherwise I hate that it exists. 'cause I don't love that. You know, it'll tell you where to all these little honeypots of, of good places to go. But yeah, there's really, unless you wanna spend like hours and hours joining Facebook forums. Yeah. Right. Or going to like backpacking light and being like, anybody been on this loop lately? Like, it's just so easy to go to all trails and be like, oh, here's someone who was there last week. Oh, it's, it's doable. Great. You know? Great. I'm done. That stuff is, it's awesome to have that.

Colin (24:51):

Uh, a couple other headlines we got. So e wool making its us debut this fall. You heard of e

Justin (24:56):

No. What is

Colin (24:57):

This? So Canada's e wool and they make, uh, heated clothing. And I wanted to see your thoughts on heated clothing. And it's a, if you look at their website, it's, it's looks like they're, they're focused primarily according to the website, on, on golf, motorcycles, things like that. But it is battery powered clothing to heat up your gloves, your jacket, those things.

Justin (25:16):

I mean, this isn't new. Like, I have a pair of, I have a pair of, uh, I think I have something that came out like last year. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. They're, they're mitt, they're mittens

Colin (25:24):

You, they're battery powered.

Justin (25:26):

Yeah. And they're like, use, they say ai. I don't really think it's ai, but they're like, you know, you'd be like, I want my hands to be 68 degrees at all times or whatever. And like, it tells, it can tell like how hot your body is and how, how like what the temperature's outside and it like regulates that. And you know what? Dude is badass.

Colin (25:41):

See, I thought you were like, why would

Justin (25:42):

You want that

Colin (25:43):

On this? I thought you were

Justin (25:44):

Gonna be selling

Colin (25:44):

Anti e clothing.

Justin (25:46):

I, I like, I think it's, I mean, I don't know, like, it seems kind of complicated and silly, but at the same time, like, I don't know, my hands get fucking cold in gloves when it's really, really cold outside. Like if I have like gloves that will heat my hand, like, why wouldn't you want that? Like they don't, they're not, he, they're not that much heavier than regular gloves. I mean, they're expensive as shit. So, but if I lived, so if I lived in Minnesota, hell yeah dude, I'd have all kinds of heated stuff. Well,

Colin (26:07):

That's it. I don't, I I don't know. I I think they, it's to where your principal, you like

Justin (26:11):

Heated seats in your car? Yes.

Colin (26:13):

You do. I do. They, they just, what's the difference on a cold morning? The, well, I guess there's a bit of the earning it, right? It's kind of a conversation. Yeah's why I think it's a good follow up to the G p Ss conversation. Right. I think if, if, yeah, if I'm living in Minnesota and I gotta go out in the morning at six in the morning and scrape the ice off my car, then yeah. Gimme my heated, you know, my battery powered gloves, you know. But then what are you dependent on if you're out in the mountains, like tromping around up there and stuff like that too, you know? Well,

Justin (26:35):

I I I think it's, if you have like big dangling cords everywhere and like giant battery packs, that's dumb. But like, if it can get to the point where it's really dumb, that big of a deal, like I don't know why you wouldn't. I mean to me this seems like the e-bike versus regular bike debate too.

Colin (26:47):

It's like, it kind of is. Yeah. It's

Justin (26:49):

Like, okay, I don't love the, I don't want something that's like augmenting my power. I was like, what the fuck do you think gears are? Right? Like it's not like, like you're like it's the same. Yeah. Okay. I don't want a heated, I don't want heated gloves, but gimme, gimme like deer hide gloves with like down in them. What?

Colin (27:05):


Justin (27:06):

It's the difference. It's just a different way of warming yourself body heat or external heat. Who caress <laugh>

Colin (27:12):

If you get cheated as like an emergency thing too. Like if you get caught somewhere. Yeah. And now it's like, you know, you can't move and now it can give, definitely there's a safety aspect of it too. That's,

Justin (27:20):

Or don't you use hand warmers?

Colin (27:21):

No, I've never used hand warmers. The little

Justin (27:23):

Like packs.

Colin (27:24):

Yeah. I hate those things.

Justin (27:25):

They work so good. Like, I don't know why you wouldn't do some

Colin (27:28):

Jumping jacks.

Justin (27:28):

Um, okay. Or you just put these things in your gloves <laugh>

Colin (27:31):

Or, or you, you warm 'em up 'cause you're doing jumping jacks and you get cardiovascular fitness out.

Justin (27:36):

Come on. I mean, I think it's, I don't, I don't, you're, I, I get why you would think I would be a hater and I, again, I would be if it was bulky and stupid. But if, and maybe they are. I haven't seen these clothes. Yeah. I mean they've tried to do this with wetsuits for decades. Well, it does. It's never quite taken off. Largely

Colin (27:49):

Because I thought it was funny about, 'cause it just, so it's like another one of these things where like, they've been trying to get this stuff going for years. I mean, battery powered. I've seen batteries in clothing at like an outdoor retailer back in the mid like two thousands. Yeah. You know, so it's not like a brand new idea. Uh, so I just thought the headline was funny. Like, oh, we're entering the US market. And I'm like, are you coming after? Are you going like, we wanna be sold at r e i and it doesn't really have any distribution in the press release and distribution goals in the press release. And it looks like they're mostly selling towards like the golf and mo like Moto makes sense. Like if you're like, if you're a motorcycle person. Yeah. You know, un unless you live in a really warm place all year round, this is probably, you know, you need to have something like this. Um, well yeah, but if it's coming after outdoor, I would be, I don't know, it's gonna be interesting if

Justin (28:29):

They were like, what if it wasn't a battery thing? What if and what if we just come up with, came out with some like super material where, uh, you could just like, I don't know, like some kind of, some kind of crazy material and didn't add any thickness or, or, or complication. It just, it just created heat. Like would you have

Colin (28:45):

An issue with that? Well, they've tried to do that, right? With the reflective foils and stuff like that. Oh, like Columbia? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess mostly I just kind of come down to like the, the e-bike thing makes sense to me. And of course my knee jerk reaction when e-bike starts growing is, you know, fuck that. You gotta earn it. I gotta ride up the hill. You gotta ride up the hill. If you can't ride up the hill, you should get better at riding up the hill. And then someone points out to me, no, hey, you know what? There's people who are older or they have disabilities or they don't wanna maybe ride like you do. And it's like, that makes a lot of, that's a good point. Right. Uh, to, in terms of like mountain biking specifically, like here now, yeah. My wife doesn't like to ride bikes as much as I do, but she likes to ride bikes.

(29:17) If she had an e-bike, you know, the, the typically five to 10 mile ride we do together could become a 15 to 20 mile ride now because she has that pedal assist. I think there's other problems coming with that because especially down here in Southern California, most of the e-bikes I see are like 11 year olds like out riding around like with cars without helmets on. And I'm like, eh, that's a moped. Like you're, and they're not pedal assist, right. They're, they have throttles. So it's creating these, all these other problems. However I get it right. There's a, there's a segment of the cycling community that is not being served that can be served by e-bikes. If you're talking about people who wanna go out like peak bagging in the winter or do you know more kind of the pure sports that we like to do? I don't know. I I, there's a part of me that doesn't like the idea of electronic, you know, clothing. Well,

Justin (30:03):

Yeah. And I'll give you an example. Last winter we went out and cut, um, our Christmas tree down in the, in the in stance Lost national

Colin (30:10):

Forest. Yeah. To the national forest, right? Yeah. I've done that.

Justin (30:12):

Yeah. I got a permit for that, which is fun. Like, we usually cut our tree down.

Colin (30:14):

I love doing that.

Justin (30:15):

Yeah. Yeah. But this time usually we do it around here, so we're like, oh cool, we get to go to the actual mountains. This will be great. It was really, really cold <laugh>. And, um, we, it was all, it was like really cold and sleeting and like just kind of windy and like, it wasn't like so cold that it was just dumping snow, but it was like colder, you know what I mean? Yeah,

Colin (30:32):

Yeah. I know.

Justin (30:32):

Yeah. So the baby was, I don't know, I don't wanna do math young, you know. And like my four year old was probably three, you know? Yeah. And they were like not getting outta the car. Um, and my wife was definitely not either. And so I'm like out there like with a, with a saw like, you know, in like knee deep wet snow. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> with really, I have like, you know, lots of pairs of very nice gloves. God, people love to send me gloves, you know? And I, I don't, I think I just don't have terrific circulation. My hands are just aching. They're so cold and and hurting. Right. And it's like the whole time I'm like, I wish I had those fricking, why don't I have those mittens on right now? Like those heated mitt, like this would be so much easier. You know, like I could barely use the saw and like, it was like hard to get the tree off and it was just like dragging the tree up and like throwing in the back of the truck. Like all, it was just, it just sucked. You know? And it's like, had my hands been warmer, that would've been a much more pleasant experience. Now would that have made me soft? Yeah. Yeah. Sure would've. But you know, I already have a family. I already, you know, like it's, I've already done, I've already shown off enough. Right. I, I've already got all the things. But think of all the

Colin (31:30):

Character your kids would not have developed by not having that experience. You know, they've

Justin (31:34):

More comfortable, tiny and miserable. They have no idea whether dad, dad's hands are like mechanic's, hands or a teacher.

Colin (31:40):

Dunno. Those that, that this is why Christmas vacation is the greatest Christmas movie of all time. Because it's like that that is those, those are, those experiences aren't supposed to be pleasurable. <laugh>. There's no, it's

Justin (31:50):

True. It wasn't, it wouldn't have been if my hands were warm either. It was still unpleasant experience's.

Colin (31:54):

Now there's a big difference. There's like, like 33 and drizzle and sleet is way colder than like 19 and just, yeah.

Justin (32:01):

And I don't, I guess it's just the water, but Yeah. You know, but I was actually thinking like I have, why am I not using these? I have them, you know, they're just like in my drawer at home, you know? Yeah.

Colin (32:10):

I dunno. I thought that was interesting. Good. Another one of these. And so evil. See I not a great name Electronic wool, but it's not.

Justin (32:16):

Well it's funny because as soon as you said evil, I'm like, oh, what? Like electronic wool as a joke. I didn't really think about that.

Colin (32:22):

Yeah. And the last bit of news, we gotta do it. I, I made sure, like I looked it up. Pickleball Corner here on the rock fight, pickleball Kingdom spans new franchise into Wisconsin. If you look at the press release, it's a massive indoor facility. Yeah. They're a franchisor of indoor pickleball facilities with, uh, clubs in Chandler, Arizona, north and Central Florida. Atlanta, Georgia, orange County, California, Texas, Arizona, Oklahoma. I think, I think pickleball Man, you sent me a clip this week of what pickleball is. It was the most, I thought it was a joke. I I actually asked you, is this real? Is this, is this somebody making fun of pickleball or is this pickleball that they stand still for the most? See I

Justin (33:08):

Like, did I send you the other ones of it going faster? Like that there, there, I guess those, I think that was like very, that was like a very low level pro. Or maybe it was like, 'cause it was mixed doubles. I don't know. But I've seen some,

Colin (33:19):

The mixed double. I don't know why they do doubles. Don't do doubles with pickleball. I don't

Justin (33:22):

Know why there's doubles at all with pickleball. Pickleball to me seems like it should be a single sort of thing. I, because ball

Colin (33:26):

Then you actually have to move to get to the ball. I mean

Justin (33:30):

Yeah. But then it's probably even more apparent you should just be playing tennis. 'cause if you can move fast enough to cover that whole little pickleball court, you could probably cover a tennis ball court too.

Colin (33:37):

You might, maybe there's some other clips and I should look 'em up with people playing a little bit more high-paced kind of frenetic game of pickleball. The thing I noticed about it though is between the serving, the way you return, serve all this stuff, it looks like ping pong that on you're standing on the table. Well,

Justin (33:49):

So the, the clip I showed you, I'm like, okay, well this is pro like I could, I am, I am easily a pro pickleball player without ever having touched a pickleball paddle <laugh>. And then I found some higher level ones and I'm like, okay, so I might not win every time, but I'd probably could. I could, I could definitely get hang, I could jump right into this right now and be just as good as either of these two.

Colin (34:08):

You'd score a few points.

Justin (34:09):

Yeah. I'm sure I would lose the world champion. But like you wouldn't be able to tell I hadn't been playing it. So what

Colin (34:14):

Is it though? Because there's, there was another article that I was gonna, before I found this one about like Sterling, which is I guess the, the paddles or rackets or whatever they call and like, they're talking about the expansion of the sport and it went from being the, the an older person sport and now it's growing everywhere and they're taking advantage of this massive growth. Like what is it? I I mean

Justin (34:32):

I I I don't know. I I don't, I I don't know. I mean there's been big New Yorker articles about it too, trying to figure it out. Like, I, I can't, I can't figure out what the draw is. It's free. That's important, right? Like for the most part you don't, well you probably not, not

Colin (34:48):

In Wisconsin ed, the pickleball kingdom. Yeah. It's

Justin (34:50):

For the most part, you go to your, you go to your local thing and it's free mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I can't imagine the equipment costs that much and you can just get out and start moving around having some fun. I mean, I, I think it makes a lot of sense for people that don't already have other interests. You know, like, I, I don't know. I don't know man. I don't know. Like, yeah,

Colin (35:07):

I don't wanna just come up as a total hater, but I feel like pickleball is succeeding because it feels like anybody can do it. It's like the is why's, it's like the participation trophy of sports at this point. It

Justin (35:17):

Is why, I mean like how if you have a family, you probably have a set of those stupid beach paddle ball thing, whatever the hell that's called paddle ball. I don't

Colin (35:25):

Know, like the beach paddle ball game that you play

Justin (35:28):

With your kids. Yeah. Which just like, not even remotely fun, but like everybody owns that, you know? Right. And it's like, I don't know, pickle ball's kind of the same thing. I mean, every town has a tennis court and most people don't play tennis. So there's, there's like all the opportunity in the world to throw up your little pretend tennis court.

Colin (35:42):

I don't know. Well, we'll keep an eye on things on Pickleball Corner here on the rock fight because I've this

Justin (35:45):

Fascinating. If you play pickleball, if you play pickleball and you've gotten good at it, we'd like to hear from you. Also, I'd like to know if you also play tennis, because if you're like a pretty good doubles pickleball player, God play tennis, doubles tennis is a blast. I love doubles tennis. I,

Colin (36:00):

I, I'm, I'm not trying to be a dick for the sake of being a dick, I don't think you are either. Please email us my rock please. I want to understand more. All right, well, we'll keep our eyes on pickleball. Please reach out one of these days. Someone's gonna reach out. We're gonna hit get in front of a pickleball player and they're gonna tell us what's going on with it. It's gonna happen, I swear. In the meantime, I dunno. You got anything else? You good? I'm good. I think that's all I got. Yeah. Alright, so we're gonna talk to you in two weeks. Next time we chat, we'll hear all about the, the Sierra and what's happening up in Yosemite and, uh, mosquitoes and snow and get an update on mm-hmm. <affirmative> on your backpacking trip. Mm-hmm. Uh, in the meantime, if you have any anything else, please email us my rock

(36:41) We'll be back next week. Well, actually this is gonna go up, this is, it's, it's uh, August 11th. This will be up late next week. So, uh, this will be the second episode of the week. So I guess I'm not, I have nothing to tease. Go back and listen to the other episodes we put up this week and, uh, I guess that's all we got for today. Yeah, go outside. Have some fun. Yeah. Alright. For Justin Hausman, I'm Colin Tree. Thanks for listening to the Rock Fight. And the Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight L L C.

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