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Outdoor Enthusiasts On The Decline? Shaun White Launches The Snow League & Amazon Gets Greener

Neither Justin nor Colin. But hardcore nonetheless.

It's time for a round of outdoor headlines here on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head)!

Today Colin & Justin run through stories to come out of the outdoor industry and community including the following:

  • The Outdoor Industry Association trend report shows that outdoor participation is up but hardcore enthusiasts are declining. (09:23)

  • Snowboarder Shaun White announces the formation of a new snowboard league. (19:13)

  • Amazon & Burton make green choices in how they ship their goods (28:53)

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Episode Transcript

Colin (00:08):

Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak out truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin. True and joining me today, I tried to give him Covid, an outdoor retailer, but he said, no way. It's Justin Hausman.

Justin (00:25):

I was just about to say that you do sound like you've had Covid for like a week. Your voice is a little flat, my friend.

Colin (00:31):

It's better than it was. The episode I recorded last week before I knew I was sick. I listened to it over the weekend. I'm like, Ooh, I have travel and covid voice going on that episode. It was a little

Justin (00:41):

Rough. Yeah, my voice was hoarse after we got back because I'm not used to speaking to any other human beings besides my children, which is a whole different octave that I use in my voice and you. So that's it. I will

Colin (00:52):

Say would've so good this, we're recording this on Monday the 24th. It goes up on the 25th Tuesday. We're going to talk to Christina Henderson from Switchback this week. We haven't done it yet, but I think no matter what else I'm going to say to her, I want to thank you for choosing Nashville because why do we keep putting all these trade shows at high altitude arid climates after we get off of airplanes?

Justin (01:09):

Oh yeah. I have a cold sore thanks to this trip. My lips are so damn dry.

Colin (01:13):

So I didn't give you covid, but I gave you a cold sore.

Justin (01:15):

Nice. Somebody did. I don't know.

Colin (01:17):

Well, today we're going to run through some of the more notable or exciting headlines that come out of the outdoor industry and community, including the latest outdoor participation numbers released by the OIA, Sean White's New League of Snowboarding people and

Justin (01:28):

Amazon's snowboarding people. Is that what it's

Colin (01:30):

Called? No, I called it that

Justin (01:31):

The New League League of Snowboarding people makes just as much sense as any other sports league. That's

Colin (01:36):

Kind of what I thought. It was

Justin (01:37):

Funny when I heard it. I've never heard in my life

Colin (01:38):

As well as Amazon's new environmental commitment. But before we get to that, we've got a few housekeeping items for you guys. We've asked you a lot. We're going to ask you again. We need you to follow and rate the rock fight wherever you're listening on any podcast app, please leave us that five star rating.

Justin (01:54):

We know we're paying attention. We know we Santa across. Do look with the numbers. We know if you don't, we know and we don't forget.

Colin (02:00):

Can we reverse engineer it from the lack of rating to find out who didn't actually leave

Justin (02:05):

The rating? Probably. Probably is away. We'll work on that. Yeah, we have ai, we have Chad GPT. How hard could it be?

Colin (02:11):

And if you're an Apple Podcast listener, we need you to leave us a written review please. And from now until the end of June, which is this week, this is your last week. We'll probably keep it going. But anyway, email us at my rock and we'll send you a rock fight or a gear and beer sticker sticker. Start shipping out this week. We're back from traveling. We're back from Covid. I'm back from Covid. We got to shout out. We got to meet Jenna Quick who's one of our listeners last week at our live show and give her her's stickers in person. That was really cool. That was

Justin (02:41):

Awesome. That was actually really fun. That was really cool. That was kind of the highlight outdoor retailer.

Colin (02:46):

Hey, and remember Gear and Beer now is its own podcast feed. Go follow and rate gear and beer wherever you're listening to the rock fight. Leave us a review on Gear and Beer at Apple Podcast if you're doing that as well. And also in addition to all that Justin, how can our listeners follow along and reach out to the show?

Justin (03:02):

Well, email is probably the easiest and the one that we get the most excited about and you can find us at or you can send us your email at my rock Colin's addition to every possible social media out there and our Instagram handle is rock So send us some notes there. I can't remember what Colin's OnlyFans address is. Colin, can you remind we're

Colin (03:25):

Running a specialist. If you send me a review at OnlyFans, I'll send you a customized video along with your rock fight stickers.

Justin (03:33):

Also go sign up for a newsletter that's at the website and click on join the mailing list and your inbox will be delighted Every Sunday with Collins Bon Motts and I dunno, whatever the fuck it feels like putting in there, it's going to show up in your inbox.

Colin (03:50):

Well Justin, are you ready for more?

Justin (03:54):

Yeah, not always, but I am right now. Yeah, why do you ask? Because

Colin (03:57):

It's time for more with Themore.

Justin (04:00):

Are you talking about the Italian installation brand that basically created the idea of insulation? Yes.

Colin (04:07):

It's our weekly segment presented by Themore who is like you said, the original ingredient brand providing insulation solutions from Italy since you remember

Justin (04:14):

1972, the year column was born. Just kidding. That's not the year you were born.

Colin (04:19):

Alright, so quick check are getting more out of our summer. How are you doing against the goals we set a few weeks ago?

Justin (04:25):

Well, do you really think I remember those goals? Catch the fish that you can't do that fish in the West Walker. Can't do that yet. Yet. It's open. It's open, but the river's too big. I might go this weekend so that could happen this weekend. Although the river's probably moving too fast. What was the other

Colin (04:40):

One? Backpacking with your

Justin (04:41):

Kids? Backpacking. I have thought about it and talked about it with another dad. We were trading backpacking options. Excellent. So that's in the cards. Was surfing more part of it? I surf this hot game. Baha trip. Baha trip. I have friends that are going. Does that count?

Colin (04:56):


Justin (04:57):


Colin (04:58):

Yeah, I'm over for two between trade shows and covid. I'm like, you're not even close. I'm not even close. I got up for to walk the dog this morning. I thought that was great. So I'm going to try and go for a bike ride later. But

Justin (05:08):

You mean the yo-yo trick? What you mean the yo-yo trick walk the dog. Is that what you're doing or are you actually walking your actual dog? Were you

Colin (05:14):

A yo-yo guy back in the

Justin (05:16):

No, but I do think it's extremely

Colin (05:17):

Cool. Your things are a little more lofty so you're going to have to plan yours out. I'm going to try and get back on track this week, but we got to commit to doing a little bit more this week. We've had a lot going on in the last couple of weeks. This week we're going to do more. You said you got in the water, which is great. Now did you see up in your neck of the woods? There was a big story. There's a guy who kind of emerged from the woods in the Santa Cruz

Justin (05:35):

Mounties. He sure did emerge from the woods. John the Baptist, like wandering after only 10 days, looks like 40 years as far as I'm concerned.

Colin (05:43):

So that guy looks like he's been doing way more than you. Clearly.

Justin (05:46):

He's been doing more than me. Yeah, for

Colin (05:47):

Sure. What are you going to do as we lead into the holiday week here in the us?

Justin (05:51):

Open ocean paddling.

Colin (05:53):

Okay, say more. What do you mean?

Justin (05:57):

The waves have been shit. I'm going to get out my biggest surfboard. I'm just going to paddle. Just paddle

Colin (06:01):


Justin (06:02):

Just paddle, get all, oh boy, get all yoked. Get all tanned. Yeah, that's my plan. And then if the day comes where I need to paddle from here to I don't know the Faron for some reason I'll be halfway. I'll be ready. That's my plan.

Colin (06:15):

So is that when you say are you going to be kneeling on the board

Justin (06:18):

Sometimes, yeah.

Colin (06:19):

Or just in the prone position.

Justin (06:20):

Paddling back forth. Back and forth. Yeah, your back gets tired, hop up on the knees, back and forth.

Colin (06:24):

How long are you going to do that?

Justin (06:27):

Probably like 20 minutes and be like, this is hard. Turn around and just go back, get a donut.

Colin (06:31):

Well I'm also going to get more in the water. One of my goals is to surf two times a week so the next time we record I better have surfed twice. That's going to be my goal.

Justin (06:38):

Well anyway, I'm going to be spending some time in the ocean doing paddle boarding. You're going to be surfing in the ocean. That's good. Just looking at the ocean generally speaking, more likely in your case it sounds like you go there a lot and just leave

Colin (06:47):

Only that one time.

Justin (06:49):


Colin (06:50):

Well it's interestingly, we both mentioned getting in the ocean because today's episode of the rock fight is presented as we said by the original ingredient brand thermo. Who wants you to get more out of your outdoor adventures with products like eco down fibers, ocean eco down fibers. Ocean is made exclusively from Ocean Cycle certified plastics, which is the same ocean bound plastic that makes up 80% of the plastics found in our oceans eco down fibers. Ocean is light, extremely soft, durable and warm and allows for a more sustainable choice for outdoor brands. Looking for a better way to keep you warm on chilly summer mornings and evenings. Hey outdoor apparel brands. Maybe you're out there listening to this. Instead of that cheap off the rack fill, you put it in your puffy coats, maybe hit up themore. Take a look at eco down fibers Ocean as the insulation solution for your next jacket. And of all of our listeners, don't forget to do more in the outdoors this summer with Themore.

Justin (07:41):

We should probably explain that ocean bound plastic is, I guess it's exactly what it sounds like, but it took me a minute. If you see a bottle bounding around outside of a creek that flows into the ocean, that plastic is bound for the ocean, right? That's

Colin (07:57):

What that means. It's not already in the ocean.

Justin (07:59):

Yeah, it's really difficult, if not impossible to deal with the ocean. Well the ocean to deal with plastic that's been in the ocean, depending on what you want to do with it, the salt water degrades it really, really fast. So you want to catch that stuff before it even gets out there. I mean, it's great to clean up the plastic in the ocean. There are some things you can do with some of the plastic like fishing nets and stuff like that. You can turn in other things, but most of the time if you're getting shorts or something made out of recycled bottles or whatever, that's stuff that somebody took to a recycling facility. It's not something that we'd fished out of the sea. So keeping it from the ocean is hugely important. It also is one of my biggest bugaboos in life. I get so angry when I'm walking around creeks and there's plastic bottles lying around it. I mean as someone who spends a lot of time in the ocean, you see all that stuff out there and it's pretty horrific. So good on themore for doing that.

Colin (08:46):

Alright man, let's take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to kick off headlines with an absolute banger of a story. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by Switchback Spring, the new outdoor industry gathering for education, networking, and business. Coming to Nashville June, 2025. Connect with peers and players in gear footwear, apparel, hiking, camping, trail running, and more for three days of learning discovery and celebration Switchback spring is the new go-to meetup for specialty retailers, brands, media and outdoor organizations. Mark your calendars for June 16, 18, 20 25. Visit switchback for all of the details and start planning your new outdoor industry adventure. Alright, so first up, we got a story. It was reported by SGB. The Outdoor Industry Association last week releases 2024 trends report and it shows that in 2023, outdoor recreation grew to record levels growing 4.1% to 175.8 million participants, which is up 14.4% from the 153.6 million participants in 2019.


Among the positive trends is that over half of women in the US are participating in outdoor activities with female participation rates hitting 51.9% up from 50% in 2022. But while this growth is to be celebrated, the category of core or very frequent participants is spiraling downward. Apparently in 2019 it was measured that 99.4 million participants were core versus 88.4 million in 2023. And this decline is what the OIA has said is contributing to lower retail sales even while overall participation is on the rise. I mean there's a lot to unpack here and probably a good opportunity to down the road bring someone from the OIA to sit with us and kind of dig into some more of the specifics. But I think this kind of goes hand in hand with what we're seeing in the outdoor space when it comes to media and trade show and gatherings. I mean, I dunno, the badass hardcore of it all doesn't seem to matter anymore. People just recognize it going outside as healthy and they're doing it more and it's probably likely that our hardcore generation is starting to age out in a way. I don't know. What do you think of all this?

Justin (10:53):

I don't usually these sorts of things strike me as not untrue but identified. I mean, I would love to know what a core participant is. I'm guessing it's someone who's usually, when in the surf world it's like, oh, you went surfing four times in a year. It's like, okay, that doesn't fucking count. I doubt very much that core participants in terms of what you would consider someone who's built a life around these things is really declining all that much. I don't think that core participation and the rise of just new participation or whatever you want to call it, those things don't necessarily have to have anything to do with one another. You can celebrate that new people are coming in and that's wonderful, but that shouldn't in and of itself cause there to be fewer core participants. I don't

Colin (11:37):

Think there's a cause ality between the

Justin (11:39):

Two, right? I mean maybe there is but Well, fuck. It's funny. I will say that part of the reason I surf less is it's so much more crowded. That has a lot to do with it. So it is possible.

Colin (11:51):

You're also 45 with two kids. Well,

Justin (11:53):

Right, but even if, I mean honestly, my kids are in daycare all day. I can go surf whenever I want. I mean good. It used to be a big priority all the time and now it's like I look at the cams and there's 37 heads bobbing. I'm just say, I'm not dealing with that. If you talk to most of us that have surfed for a really long time, we'll all talk about this. Crowds have kind of made it less pleasant to go. You can't just go for a quick surfing and get a bunch of waves now it's like a thing. So I could see that. But surfing is very, it's a shared resource. It's not the same thing as hiking or climbing or riding a bike or whatever. So that might be useless data. But anyway, I don't think it's good. I think it can't be a good sign. I mean, why would that be the case? Let's talk through it. Right? I guess there could have been a bulge in people that got super hardcore into stuff and that you're right, they're aging out okay, but why didn't somebody, wasn't there a younger generation coming up also wanting to do the show all the time? I mean, to me it feels like there's fewer people who build their lives around these sorts of things. I guess remember that guy we met at or who was living in his van and selling that phone leash? I saw

Colin (13:01):

An ad on Instagram today for it

Justin (13:03):

With him and he just wanted to live in his van. How often do you see people like that anymore who aren't super rich and live in their van means do vp. vp,

Colin (13:11):

My dad Van, the

Justin (13:11):

VP of marketing for, or they're still the VP of marketing, they just do it out of a sprinter. Right? It's possible that you just can't be a core participant as much anymore. I

Colin (13:22):

Think there is something to the generational thing though, because when the kind of industries really started to come of age, like the MTV sports generation where it was so Dan Cortez. Yeah, it was so badass to do

Justin (13:34):

These things. I call them the Dan Cortez

Colin (13:35):

Generation. Yeah, sure. And I worship at the altar of Dan. We still have a long-term goal to get Dan Cortez on this show. I think if we get with the day Dan Cortez comes on. We're wrap. We're a wrap. It's over.

Justin (13:46):

Is it still a goal if you've never tried? I have tried. You've tried? Yeah. How did you try? What do you do? There're

Colin (13:50):

Supposed through social media, LinkedIn.

Justin (13:52):

Anybody know Dan Cortez out there? I've

Colin (13:53):

Done that too. Let's do it. We've a bigger audience now probably than the last time I did it. If anyone listening knows Dan

Justin (13:58):

Cortez, who's the most, yeah, who listens to us with the most poll.

Colin (14:02):

I'm sure there's somebody, come on now, let's

Justin (14:04):

Go that we know we need

Colin (14:05):

Dan Cortez to come on the rock fight and

Justin (14:06):

Talk about him. Somebody, I want to

Colin (14:07):

Talk about MTT sports and rock and jock softball, but to me it's like that was, so I was talking with Adam Ruggiero actually earlier today from Gear Junkie. He

Justin (14:18):

Kind of got some Dan Cortez like

Colin (14:20):

Qualities. He's got a little Dan Cortez in him, doesn't he? The hair especially. But we were talking about how backcountry skiing, about how we can't get past the risk and it's a foregone conclusion that you're probably going to die doing this. And now I think even younger generations would look at that, who they're much more thoughtful. The kids who are being raised today, they, they're much more in tune with things socially. They're going to look at that.

Justin (14:43):

They're scared, they're saying they're scared. They're

Colin (14:44):

Scared they're, they're probably smartly scared of things versus our generation was like, dude, you could die doing this. Let's fucking

Justin (14:50):

Go. I go, I don't think that's it. I thinks more depressive than that. I think something to, I don't think it's that it has to have something to do with people just can't afford to do it anymore. It has to be,

Colin (14:59):

Well, maybe it's just all of the above. I mean this is why we should definitely have somebody without speculating too much from the OI On. They don't

Justin (15:04):

Know. You think they'll know this

Colin (15:05):

Data source that they're

Justin (15:07):

Reporting from? Sure. But they're not going to have any answers. I mean, I don't know. All the evidence you can muster for something like this is going to be anecdotal. At least that's true in our seats and I can tell you for sure that crowding does make people who have done something for a really long time without having to suffer crowds want to do it less So there could be some of that. I mean I remember, I mean, I'm not going to put words in his mouth, but Daniel Duane, one of my favorite writers who he writes a lot about climbing now wrote a story and I think it was in the New York Times maybe, and he was talking about climbing Cathedral Peak in Yosemite and which is beautiful if you've never seen his, wow, what a beautiful thing. And he said when you first started climbing it, you just go there and just climb and you might see somebody and now every time you want to go to climb, there's a really long line at the crack so he doesn't go anymore. So is it that, is it partially that? Where

Colin (15:59):

Do you go somewhere else? Right?

Justin (16:01):

Where do you go somewhere else? But that doesn't, I mean you see I'm where I'm getting at. Yeah, totally. His wholeness of that situation is technically speaking less because he isn't doing it as much. No, that's a

Colin (16:11):

Good point. For as much as I pick at skiing, because as an outdoor activity, whatever, I still really enjoy skiing. We lived in Utah for four years. I skied every winter and had a blast doing it with my kids. Loved going skiing. I will never go out of my way to go skiing right now because the last couple of times I've gone is exactly what you described. It's crowded if I lived in the town, sure, but I'm not living in the town, so that means I'm a weekend warrior's, got to drive to the ski resort and deal with all the crowd crowded nature of the sea ski resorts and the risks that come with it. I'm just not willing to do it.

Justin (16:40):

The data's also weird because it says, okay, so we're years past the pandemic now, or at least years past when the surge started. So theoretically these people should be core. There should be people that are core now who didn't even do these things five years ago or four years ago, so why is that number still not, it's not being replenished. You see what I'm saying? Well that's

Colin (17:00):

It. That's why I wonder if there's a healthier approach to it if it's just like, Hey, I enjoy going outside but I do lots of different things versus I make this my life and is that necessarily why that he a bad thing? I don't know if that's a bad thing that the core numbers aren't getting replenished and I guess on the one side where it is getting replenished, there's another quote from the article that the traditional hardcore high frequency participants who are most often male and white will make up a smaller share of the participant base year over year in the indefinite future. As

Justin (17:27):

I see that as being sad and it has nothing to do with the ethnicity or whatever people, oh my God, are we going full

Colin (17:34):

Five news

Justin (17:34):

Right now? I keep thinking back to when I was a kid growing up surfing, there were lots of, just in Australia they call 'em tradies guys who just had the least responsible job they could possibly have. They paid decently. Usually it was in carpentry or something like that where they could take a job or leave a job and they had old battered trucks and they didn't have a nice place because they loved to surf and that's what they wanted to do.

Colin (18:01):

The top of Pyramid of the core, there's

Justin (18:04):

Probably, yeah, but I don't even think that happens anymore. Well's find out, if I go back to that same town where I grew up, there'd be very few of those guys left. There'd be guys that drove trucks that work in construction, but they'd be, the contractors in their trucks are $90,000. It's just a whole different situation. And so I think there's a lot of this probably has to do with people just can't afford to be a dirt bag the way that used to be able to.

Colin (18:25):

Well, or in Central Coast, California, maybe they've moved to the

Justin (18:28):

Georgia Coast or something,

Colin (18:30):

The East coast or

Justin (18:31):

They don't respond to fucking surveys. No one has ever asked me how often I surf or fish or hike ever. So I don't even know where these surveys are.

Colin (18:39):

Well you know what, I'm going to reach out to OIA. I'd really like to have somebody, this is an interesting one to dig into because I mean there might be just some really simple things that clarify what we're talking about. I think there's probably an element of truth in almost everything that we're saying. I do think things are obviously different and in a lot of ways they're getting better. I mean the female participation, the diversity is improving all of the things that we've wanted to have happen.

Justin (18:58):

Well yeah, but that shouldn't, yeah, totally. But again, I still don't understand why those groups, I guess maybe what you're saying is that they're participating is more than they were in the past, but they don't feel the need to build their lives around it and do it 20 times a week. Yeah.

Colin (19:13):

Alright. A lot of coverage in this next topic and for our purposes, I'm pulling this from outside, online and from the ap. This past week, Sean White announced the formation of the Snow League a new season long series.

Justin (19:23):

I'm guessing these are like crime fighters that in the Arctic.

Colin (19:27):

Yep. DC Comics is sponsoring and that

Justin (19:30):

Would be so

Colin (19:31):

Dope. That'd be way better than what this actually is.

Justin (19:33):

So much fucking cooler.

Colin (19:35):

A new season long series of half bike competitions for snowboarders and free skiers that will debut next winter over the course of five events with a combined purse of 1.5 million

Justin (19:45):

Over five events, five

Colin (19:46):

Events for the first year, and so it's going to start in the US and then there'll be four other events around the world. The announcement of the Snow League came just days after X Games announced the X Games League that will be more team-based versus the Snow League is more individual based. But regarding the Snow League White was quoted as saying in the end, we really want to be that premier thing where it's amazing to go to the Olympics and win a medal, but this is winning Wimbledon or the NBA finals. It's almost more prestigious. I just want to get your way in on this because I figured you can reference professional surfing in the same sort of platform. Maybe my gut here is that this may succeed on one level, but that it will never be for the audience. The audience would ever be there for this truly to achieve what they say they want to achieve. What are some of the, can you draw any comparisons to what surfing has tried to do over the years to make professional surfing a thing or to Yeah,

Justin (20:37):

They started calling themselves the league and every surfer in the world threw up in their mouth. What's the World Surf League? Nobody likes that. I have good friends that work for the WS, I'm sorry if you're listening to this, but nobody, they know this and maybe we're considered old news, no one cares anymore, but there's not a core surfer on earth who likes the name World Surf League. What is this league bullshit? This is like to give it an impro tour of some kind of jockish thing where it's like a real sport. Nobody wants that in the community. To me it seems like it's probably more palatable to the snowboarding community because they've kind of always hitched their wagon to the Olympics and that sort of stuff. Like nobody in surf really, other than the surfers really Nobody cares about surfing the Olympics. Most of us would prefer it. So I dunno, maybe it makes more sense a little bit for something like snowboarding. I don't know.

Colin (21:32):

I just look at any of these things though as sort of if you really, and look, maybe it's just look, he's in a press release talking about what he wants this thing to be. So he's referencing Wimbledon and the NBA finals. I get it, but it's like none of these sports can get to that level. I just,

Justin (21:45):

Well, of course not, and I don't know anything about whether or not, surely there's some kind of world championship of snowboarding now. Right? There already exists there.

Colin (21:54):

There's apparently a lot of demand though for something better, which is what probably

Justin (21:58):

Response to can't see. I have a hard time imagining that. I mean it takes a long, well, I guess he's probably in it for the long haul. It takes a long time for these course of things to gather any kind of momentum or develop any kind of cachet or people care. It seems like it would be a while. I don't know why it would replace the Olympics already. That already seems like a really big deal. The it's not going to replace that. That seems like a huge deal to people in that community already. So I don't know why this would be cooler. I mean, the league thing to me that says that there are people involved that are outside the world of snowboarding who are trying to tap into some kind of the same sort of bullshit that people have said for fucking ever, we're going to turn this into a mainstream thing and we're going to capture the dollars in Kansas and all this sort of shit. We've been doing this for a long time and snowboarding might have gotten closer than most, but I have no idea if that's the case. But I mean the X Games League, I mean, is this the same marketing firm? Is it one consulting group? It's like

Colin (22:59):

We have to the Word league into it.

Justin (23:01):

People are going to, I

Colin (23:02):

Look at it's, look, the WNBA and Women's Professional Hockey, which Women's professional hockey is apparently this past season just started to maybe get some traction. The WNBA just started to have a season where people, the last couple of years starting to get actual coverage like headlining sports center and things like that. And that's basketball and hockey. Two sports that have huge sports mainstream appeal and the WNBA took literal decades to start to take off. It really didn't until superstars kind of started to break through and the public was ready for women's basketball to be a thing. And I just, to your exact point for snowboarders, if this is the right thing, snowboarders out there, you can write in my rock and say that yes, this is the right thing and I will believe you, but if you're saying that this is going to attract anyone who's not already on the inside, I just don't see it. I would never watch this. I don't care. I don't care about halfpipe snowboarding

Justin (23:58):

Unfortunately for this sort of discussion. My frame of reference is solely rooted in surfing. I don't pay attention to snow sports other than adventure, snow stuff. And this is not my, I dunno, there's a

Colin (24:08):

Good comp here though, right? Yeah,

Justin (24:10):

But surfing did, and also it kind of ruined it. Viewership numbers are lower than they've ever been, at least again, amongst actual real surfers who care, there's virtually no prize money anymore. They're pulling teeth to get sponsors. It's not going well. Was there

Colin (24:26):

A window though, where the athletes really benefited from the WSL? Yes. There was. How

Justin (24:30):

Long did that last? Not WSL, but the As p? Well, first of all, there was no Surfing Professional league until the seventies and they made it and snowball. It kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and there was a period probably in the mid to late nineties where the A SP was, I mean, it was huge and you could get, people were climbing over broken glass to sponsor tour events and surfers made a fortune. Low level pros were making a couple hundred grand a year, but that's gone. That's gone. A lot of that has to do with just industry shakeups and stuff like that, but I don't think the, they're trying to say, okay, look, you don't have to have as much sponsorships. We're going to pay a bit more in the purse so that you can make a living as just being a competitor, but they're losing so much money. I'm not sure how much longer they can do that. I

Colin (25:19):

Guess it all depends because ultimately though, if this is being done probably for the athletes, right, so you're saying at the beginning when there was a window where surfers really excelled and were able to make real money with this. I imagine this the next year, I'm sure there's going to be a handful of snowboarders here who are going to do really well. It'll get a bunch of attention. They'll actually make money doing this versus what they would've done normally. Yeah,

Justin (25:42):

Probably. I mean, if they're creating this out of thin air, then there's not already a tour then it makes all the sense in the world.

Colin (25:46):

I think the thing is, to your exact point, and surfing's probably a good compeer is like how sustainable is it? If all of a sudden there's actual, and I'm wrong and there's interest in this and peacock comes knocking and it is like, Hey, we're going to televise this and here's now here's NBC network money. Then maybe there's, I'm meeting Crow in two years because like, oh my god, now look, people are following this and watching these events, and it's a big deal to see these five, six events every year because it's Sean White and it's snowboarding and we've made it this big deal. I think that's going to be a tough hill to climb, but that would probably be the most likely outcome where this is successful. Right.

Justin (26:23):

Well, I'll tell you what I would do is I would probably put it behind a paywall. I would just be like, okay, look, we're going to have

Colin (26:31):

Bring back's going to a

Justin (26:32):

Subscription kind of, this is going to be a subscription thing, like the 50,000 or whatever,

Colin (26:37):

Tyson and Jake Paul and the Snow League.

Justin (26:40):

Well, not like that, but I mean I would do, even though I still like to watch surf contests because it's something about the fact that it's live. I don't know, even though I don't like the product, I don't like how they've jakafi it,

Colin (26:54):

But you're watching good people surf

Justin (26:56):

Surfing. Yeah, it's cool. And at a good wave, it's cool. It's unscripted, whatever. It's not edited. I like that. So I would, I'd pay 20 bucks a year to the WL to watch that or something like that. So that to me would be the smart thing to do because I don't think you're going to get main, I mean, we've been trying to get mainstream audience behind this stuff for

Colin (27:17):


Justin (27:17):

And decades and decades. Why would this work now? I mean, they'd be smart to do a paywall and then, I don't know, pay some 11-year-old kid to figure out how to package this on various social media platforms I haven't even heard of and go that route.

Colin (27:29):

Well, we'll see. I mean, maybe they're the one, maybe the Snow league breaks through maybe the ones who they've figured it out.

Justin (27:35):

I still rather watch. I still would rather watch What would be cooler is if you've ever heard the Norwegians, like in World War II that just basically went and attacked this German very early nuclear power plant. They're trying to figure out how to enrich uranium or something like that in Norway and these thank you heavy water uranium. I suppose that would be right. These just Nordic skiing badasses in Norway were like Uhuh and just went up and destroyed it. And how rad is that? That's what the snow leak should be.

Colin (28:09):

Espionage and snow sports.

Justin (28:12):

Well, yeah, dude, that's why everyone likes the biathlon. That's all I really want to watch is biathlon. I

Colin (28:17):

Mean, it goes back to one of the first points we make is that everyone just keeps trying to make the sports. We love a thing, and honestly, I like snowboarding. I've snowboarded and had a great time. I'm not interested in watching snowboarding. I don't want to watch. I won't watch. I'm not going to watch mountain biking races from, I mean, I watch the Olympics. There's a whole other reason to be invested in it. Right? I don't have a favorite. Just

Justin (28:39):

Raw jingoism. What's that? Yeah, just jingoism. Just raw, pure.

Colin (28:44):

I totalitarian my fucking red patriot, white blue on. I got my Budweiser, I got my pit fibers. I'm ready to go. I'm growing my mullet out. I'm ready. Yeah. Well, lastly, today, according to SGB, Amazon plans to replace 95% of plastic air pillows with paper fillers and cease using plastic air packaging by the end of 2024, which will eliminate almost 15 billion plastic air pillows annually. This is in response to concerns raised by environmental groups, including Oceania.

Justin (29:13):

Ah, you mean the largest international advocacy organization dedicated solely to ocean conservation. That Oceania why?

Colin (29:19):

Yes. Man, that just rolled right off your tongue. You had that memorized.

Justin (29:23):

Well, I didn't even think That's just how I would think to describe it.

Colin (29:25):

Oh, excellent job. I'm sure. I'm sure they would approve that copy. Matt Littlejohn, which is apparently is his real name from Oceania, said that Amazon's effort to reduce plastic waste is welcome, but there's still more the company can do. Matt Littlejohn little can you imagine growing? Is Robinhood still a thing? You grew up with a name Little John. That could be cool. That could be good or bad. I'm just saying,

Justin (29:47):

Wait, I can't remember. Was there other character specifically called Little John that was

Colin (29:51):

Right? Little. Yeah, he's guy who bites in the river or whatever. He ran the that. That's

Justin (29:54):

Right. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

Colin (29:55):

Yeah, yeah. But he's big. That's the whole thing. He's not little. He's a

Justin (29:58):

Big dude. He's not little. His name little guy. He's the guy that my dad fought on the rolling logs in the river in that. Right.

Colin (30:06):

So first off here, credit where credit is due. I don't care if it's Amazon, right? They need to lead. Would love to see this in more brands. I mean, what do you think though, when you see stuff like this?

Justin (30:19):

Well, they wouldn't do it unless it was cheaper for them. I mean, no,

Colin (30:25):

They just cracked. Oh, here's actually how we make it cheaper. Okay, we can do it now. Sure.

Justin (30:29):

I mean, why in the world? What about Amazon or Jeff Bezos makes you think that they've actually really give a shit about something like this?

Colin (30:36):

Well, this, so it's funny you say that. This is where I always look at the outdoor industry when it comes to environmental stuff, which is always more expensive, whether it's fabrics or packaging or whatever it is. It's more expensive to do the thing that isn't mass produced on a gargantuan level, right? Sure. So you're the outdoor industry. You say you make stuff to enable us to go outside, so you have to lead in that regard. We're going to do the hard thing that's more expensive because we care. So just as we are writing this and about ready to record, Burton announced on LinkedIn that they're ditching poly bags for glassine, which is apparently a packaging made from wood pulp and fully recyclable. And it's, yeah, everything's still wrapped in poly bags. I mean, I don't

Justin (31:17):

Get that. I mean, there's probably a good reason for it, but I don't understand why I open a box. Why it's in a bag.

Colin (31:22):

Well, it can get stained. It can get damaged. It does level offer, level of protection and making sure that your product gets to you or the store. Because if you go to a store that's just hundreds of garments wrapped in, people are throwing away plastic bags all day long, and it just seems like an easy one. I'm not saying it's not more expensive, but it doesn't get cheaper until you do

Justin (31:39):

It. I mean, I long for the day when I get a product from, well, first of all, I would like to be able to just go down the street and buy something. I mean, I can go to REI, but it's kind of far away. But I long for the day when I don't have to order something online. There's a store down the street.

Colin (31:56):

All of those who went to the store are still in poly bags,

Justin (31:58):

In plastic bags.

Colin (31:59):

Yeah. They don't come in bulk. Not wrapped individually in plastic bags.

Justin (32:03):

I don't know. What are you going to do? I'm sure that, I'm sure feeling of horror is everybody has it that works in the outdoor space. Like, oh my God, but what are you going to do? Quit your job?

Colin (32:16):

What do you mean? The horror of all the plastic bags?

Justin (32:18):

Yeah. I mean, were you going to write a letter? I don't even know what we're supposed to do. It's not like it's

Colin (32:22):

Well, in the worst case, worst case, everything's labeled up with hang tags of how Stanley made. It was after it was shipped in a plastic pack.

Justin (32:30):

Yeah, I mean, it's awesome, but unless we get massive government subsidies to figure out how to do this without having to pay for it, then I just do think the trickle down effect of Amazon doing this, it's got to be significant. If they're going to do less of it, other companies be like, for us to do this? Maybe. Maybe. I mean, I will be, honestly, I'll think twice. If I order something from a brand and it shows up in the most inefficient packaging possible with tons of plastic pillows, or it is a poly or whatever in a styro container, I'll like, you know what? Saran wrapper, I don't think anything from this brand again. Yeah, it matters to me when it's not like that. It's not because I want it to be fancy or have some sort of bobo touch to it, but if I get a package and it's in something that isn't plastic, think already from you.


Again, high nice work. Well, good on Amazon. Yeah. Well, I guess score one for you, Bezos. I can't, no, I can't join you there. I mean, I'm glad that they're doing that, but I don't trust them. I'm sure there's a reason. I'm sure that it turns out they're going to like, oh yeah, this glass E, but is that Amazon or that's Burton. Whatever Amazon's going to use. Oh, it turns out it's filtered from the blood of children that we enslaved somewhere to make this. It's the only way we could get this paper to optimally protect the vibrator you ordered.


Could Bezos just give up one of his mega yachts? Would that make the same difference? Of course. What would turn my head, not this. Well, all of these billionaires, just write a check and you can, why don't we just get 'em? Let's just get 'em. The race, dance and Ghostbusters maneuver. Get her what? Yeah, kind of. Well, but successfully. Why don't we just get, why are we letting these guys run around you ever think about this? Get 'em pretty? What do you mean? What are you proposing? I mean, get them. I mean, get their asses. Let's get them. We all know that. They're just, I mean, granted, they're probably on some Greek island all the time, but why do we do this? It's just wild that we all sit around going, God, the billionaires are fucking us all up pretty bad. Anyway, did you see the new Tour de France documentary?


I haven't watched it yet. When are we going to rise up, Colin? Well, Amazon Burton. I guess you get the environmental award for the week. Good job. All right, man. We can wrap it up. Anything else going on? It's hot up there. Huh? It's hot. Yeah, it's kind of warmed down here. It's hot. Yeah, but that's all right. It's summer. God dammit. It's got to be hot. You know what I should do right now? What's that? I should just go jump in the creek behind my house. You absolutely should do that. The cold as shit. But you know I'd be stoked when I got out. You'd be stoked. And it's what like 90 degrees outside? There you go. Alright man. Well, guess what? The rock fight. It's a production rock flight LLC. Our producer today was David Stead, keeping us honest, making action figures, doing all the things that he does for Justin Hausman. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening and here to take us out. It's Krista Makes. He's going to sing the Rock Fight Fight song and will see you next time. Rock fighters Rockside

Chris DeMakes (35:24):

Rock. Fight the where we speak our truth. Stay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human power, outdoor activities and pick bites about topics that we find interesting. Black Five, culture, music, the latest movie reviews. Aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth to. Welcome to.


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