Outdoor Retail Shakeup: Closures, Comebacks & Community
- colin7931
- 1 hour ago
- 30 min read
On this episode of The Rock Fight, Colin sits down with Todd Frank, owner of The Trailhead in Missoula, MT, and board member of the Grassroots Outdoor Alliance, to dig into the state of specialty outdoor retail.
With recent closures like Summit Hut and Next Adventure , the question looms: what’s the future of independent gear shops? Todd shares what makes specialty retail resilient, the challenges of D2C and online competition, and why resale programs could be a lifeline for shops like his.
They also dive into:
Why community connection still sets local shops apart.
The role of GOA in elevating specialty retailers.
Why some markets (like Missoula) thrive while others (like SoCal) struggle.
The importance of brand storytelling in making product choices.
Todd’s pick for the next big comeback brand (hint: it’s all about Black Diamond).
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Episode Transcript:
Colin True
00:00:00.160 - 00:00:10.320
Today's episode of the Rock Fight is presented by Fjallraven. Learn more about what's going on at Fjallraven and how to make cold optional by heading to fjallraven.com Rock fight.
Chris DeMakes
00:00:10.560 - 00:00:15.600
Rock fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:00:16.000 - 00:05:06.690
Rock Flight welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True, and today we get a little more insight into the state of specialty retail when I am joined by the owner of the Trailhead, Todd Frank.
But for some programming reminders, be sure to come back to the rockflight on Monday, where producer Dave and I will be joined by outdoor industry insider Owen Comer to talk shop about the outdoor industry.
On Tuesday, head to the Open Container podcast feed to get the latest from Doug Schnitzbahn and next Thursday you'll get an all new episode of Gear Abbey with Shantae Salibair and me as well. Sign up for our newsletter by heading to rockflight Co or Pops right up there on the homepage.
You fill in your email address and then you'll get the next newsletter. You follow us over on Instagram to get video clips from all of our podcast episodes.
You can also reach out to us by following us on Instagram and also you can send us an email by emailing us@myrockflightmail.com send us out your feedback, some questions, some criticisms, some jokes. Send us a joke. Maybe send us a good joke. We'll read it on the podcast. But today we're talking a little bit about outdoor retail.
Earlier this week, on the Monday episode of the Rock Fight, we talked about the news that Summit Hut in Tucson, Arizona had announced that they were closing. That announcement came not long after Next Adventure in Portland, Oregon announced that they were closing and using those shops as a springboard.
Producer Dave, Owen Comerford and I dug into the evolving landscape of outdoor retail because a lot of this comes back to the perception of the outdoor industry by the old guard.
There's a great many industry veterans out there who think the industry has to be a certain way, that the core outdoorsy individual is the primary driver of commerce in the outdoor space, and that the changing assortments and retailers, which seem to be trending away from gear and more to apparel and footwear, can only be seen as a bad thing. And all of that, along with the fact that many of the current shop owners in the outdoor space are the same as they've been for a long time.
It may be setting us up for some bad times ahead in the old outdoor industry.
And a leading voice on the retail front, as many of you know, is the Grassroots Outdoor alliance, the organization that represents the interests of roughly 100 of the best outdoor accounts in the US and one of those dealers is the Trailhead out of Missoula, Montana. And the owner of the Trailhead is Todd Frank, who's been in this game for longer than he may want me to say publicly on this podcast.
And in addition to owning the Trailhead, Todd sits on the board of the goa. And after Monday's episode came out, Todd reached out to me and offered to join the show to talk about all of this.
So Todd is here today with me to talk about the changing outdoor retail landscape and what may or may not be coming down the pike. So welcome back to the Rock Fight, where today it's a check in on outdoor specialty retail with Todd Frank.
And we'll get right into that after a quick break and a word from our sponsors. Today's episode of the Rock Flight is presented by Lemz Shoes. As the summer season wraps up, now's a great time to get ready for fall with Lem's.
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Looking at you, producer Dave But Rockvite LLC is a small business and growing brand and even though we have our own consigliere, he advises on other matters. We've got to consult a lawyer every now and then on the legal structures that every business needs.
But for a small business like ours, the cost to hire general counsel or pay a retainer is a non starter. So what's an outdoorsy founder to do? I mean, come on, we're not flashing that outside money. Enter Conatus Council.
They can help your business with fractional general counsel and legal services from strategy consulting to advocacy and government affairs to real world implementation for outdoor recreation industry businesses. Forrest over at Kannadas Council has helped Rock Fight navigate some of these areas.
And let me tell you, knowing someone has your back means you can focus on running your business. I mean, he had at least three edits to this read to quote, unquote, protect us from ourselves. I mean, that's what I'm talking about.
Forest cares just as much about the outdoors and the outdoor industry as our listeners. So got questions? Conatuscouncil.com to get in touch with Forest. The first six hours are free. Wait, what? What? I can't say that.
Oh, initial consultations are free. Okay, fine. All right. We're here today with Todd Frank, the owner of the Trailhead and Trailhead River Sports out of Missoula, Montana.
Welcome to the show, Todd.
Todd Frank
00:05:06.930 - 00:05:08.610
Thanks for having me, man. This is great.
Colin True
00:05:09.330 - 00:05:21.690
I'm glad we made it happen. We met last year when I was in town for the outdoor media Summit.
And you, I think you had sent me a note that morning on LinkedIn through something I had just said in the podcast. And then we bumped into each other at, like, a coffee shop or something like that. So it's great to get you on the show.
Todd Frank
00:05:21.690 - 00:05:26.990
Well, let's. Now, let's be honest. It was at the bar to the store here. You were out having a drink on the.
Colin True
00:05:26.990 - 00:05:28.910
That's right. That's what it was on the walk.
Todd Frank
00:05:28.910 - 00:05:32.990
And then I drug you into the store, made you do a tour, and, you know, gave you my whole shtick.
Colin True
00:05:33.710 - 00:05:51.470
I will. I want to start by blowing smoke up your ass, because I've said this on the show before, but I. And I do picture the quintessential outdoor gear shop.
Your store is what I have in mind. And, like, that's what I had in mind before. And, like, you were, like, almost a manifestation of that. So the trailhead is an incredible shop.
Anybody who's in Missoula should go in and see Todd's store. It's beautiful.
Todd Frank
00:05:52.440 - 00:06:06.360
Well, you know, my joke is we have a fantastic store that just doesn't make very much money. So if we could figure out how to make the money part of it, then people would duplicate what we do.
But at this point, I think it's a harder thing to duplicate because it isn't terribly profitable.
Colin True
00:06:07.080 - 00:06:43.700
Well, excellent segue into why you're on the show today. So let's talk about what's happening at Outdoor Retailer. Right. So earlier this week, the show's gonna go up on Friday, September 5th.
Earlier this week, we were talking on the show about the news that Summit Hut out of Tucson is closing. That led into A larger conversation about things sit with specialty retail and the outdoor industry in 2025.
Like we talked about you, like we just mentioned, you're a shop owner, but you also sit on the board of the Grassroots Outdoor Alliance. You bring a really interesting POV to this conversation.
Plus, people were getting sick of Wes Allen coming on the show, so we had to bring in a different voice. But let's start broadly. So how do you view. View the overall health of outdoor specialty retail?
Todd Frank
00:06:44.020 - 00:07:10.230
You know, I think on the whole, if you compare it to what's happening in the rest of retail, outdoor, specialty.
Outdoor is actually in pretty good shape, I think, you know, because we're small and we're pretty nimble, and we can kind of change direction a little more easily. You know, outdoor specialty has weathered the last three, four years pretty darn well.
That being said, you know, it's still really challenging from an operational standpoint, so.
Colin True
00:07:10.390 - 00:07:20.390
Well, how is it different today, then from maybe when you started the shop? I got to imagine, I mean, going through.
From when you started through the, you know, the rise of D2C and the Internet and everything has kind of changed the landscape dramatically.
Todd Frank
00:07:21.120 - 00:08:07.080
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, in the old days, it was pretty easy. We bought stuff we liked and we put it in our store and we tried to sell it.
And if we didn't, we liquidated it and bought more and tried again. And, you know, we've just seen a continued erosion of margins over the last.
Call it 20 years from D2C, from the Internet first, you know, so, you know, it's just more complicated than it used to be.
I think, you know, at this point, the thing that we were having a discussion in the store the other day about is we essentially need to have a fully functioning web store so people can just look at it and then come in and buy stuff off the floor.
And so, you know, we have all the expenses of an Internet business, but we don't get any of the benefit because our consumers still would rather walk in the front door and touch and feel it. And that's. That's the map. That's sort of the magic we offer.
Colin True
00:08:08.200 - 00:08:16.360
So when you hear the news of next Adventure in Portland Summit hut just this last couple of weeks closing, you know, what's your reaction? Is it surprising to you, given those challenges?
Todd Frank
00:08:16.910 - 00:09:54.940
I mean, yes and no. I think both of those businesses were around for a long time. I know, you know, reasonably well know both the owners.
I have not spoken with either one of them directly, so I can't.
I Can't give any insight onto what was going on internally, you know, outside of just the broader understanding that, you know, when, when stores tend to sort of go down one path more than another. And they were different paths for next adventure than it was for, for the summit.
Hut, you know, you tend to over index in a certain category or a certain way of doing business, whether it's the Internet or whether it's like building your own OEM kind of products, you know, you just, you get, you can get leverage really quickly. And I think that, that, you know, and then a small change can have a huge effect.
You know, most of the grassroots people are not really great Internet people. Most of them aren't big enough to do a lot of things on their own.
And so we're, in a way that's kind of our superpower, is that we're so slow to change internally, technology wise. Most of the group doesn't do business with Amazon. They don't have robust websites that make up more than 50% of their business.
Those sorts of things sort of insulate us from a lot of the broader market changes that happen.
So while I was saddened, I guess in a way we've seen that happen with odd members of the group, you know, over the years that I've been involved where you're like, wow, I didn't see that one coming. And again, I haven't spoken with them directly, so I don't know internally what was happening.
But I can certainly speculate that, you know, the online business has gotten a lot more challenging than it used to be.
Colin True
00:09:55.420 - 00:10:55.430
Yeah, I connected with Dana through LinkedIn. She has expressed some interest potentially in coming on the show down, down the road. We'll see.
No pressure, of course, Dana, but we'd love to have you. And same thing with the folks in Portland. You guys are. Anybody from that. That shop would be welcome to come on to talk about it.
You know, a big worry of mine prior to this, I've said it on, I think on the podcast before, is who's going to open new shops. It seems that, like, if a retailer doesn't turn the keys over to new management and they simply close, kind of, that's it.
And when we spoke about this on Monday's episode of the Rock Fight, you know, producer Dave talked about how actually there is a new shop that's opening in Portland, which is, you know, losing next adventure.
Then I also learned this week, talking to a rep in the Midwest, that this past spring a new store opened up in Minneapolis, which lost Midwest mountaineering Not that long ago, it's not right now, I think it's an appointment only shop in Minneapolis.
But it felt like for a city like that to lose a Midwest mountaineering like, God, what a gaping hole in sort of the landscape of, like, outdoor retail. I mean, do you think some of these new stores are signs that, you know, more outdoor shops are coming, or do you think maybe these are outliers?
Todd Frank
00:10:56.470 - 00:11:51.040
Well, I think it's probably a little both, to be honest with you. I think it's probably market dependent in a lot of cases.
Where is there room in a marketplace for somebody to come in with a very, very tight perspective or point of view on what they want to do? You have to have enough people to make that work. You can't probably go into many markets.
I think it would be challenging to go into LA and open up somebody to compete with an REI and the costs of doing that.
And by that, I mean a more general specialty outdoor store, where I think if you're in a marketplace that has room for a true core specialty climbing shop or a running store or. You know, the old adage that I heard a long time ago was that, you know, in the beginning you could only buy golf clubs at the golf course.
And then it sort of evolved, and you could buy golf clubs at the sort of general sporting goods store, had a golf department.
Colin True
00:11:51.440 - 00:11:51.840
Right.
Todd Frank
00:11:51.840 - 00:12:49.020
And then it sort of evolved into Golf USA and the big golf megastores. And now, you know, in Phoenix, there are stores that don't sell anything but golf balls. Right, right, right, right.
And they're they're 3 or 400 square feet, and it's a dude sitting behind a desk and, you know, and he's making it work. And so I think my balls. Exactly.
I think it's just continuing to evolve, you know, and I, I, I mean, I'm optimistic in general that, that brick and mortar specialty stores like mine, you know, we bring something to the table that brands just can't duplicate. Right. And so what we're trying to do is find that intersection with value and consumers, like, where do they see what we do as being valuable?
And I think, you know, we found our own path. And people in grassroots are doing some things differently than we are. Some of them are doing the same.
You know, we, as you know, have had a lot of success with resale. And you talk ad nauseam about it on your, on your podcast.
Colin True
00:12:49.020 - 00:12:56.030
It was impressive. I loved your resale. I'm like, guys, everyone go to Trailhead. You got to see the resale section. It's Incredible. Well, yeah.
Todd Frank
00:12:56.030 - 00:13:33.090
The thing I, of course, always look over my shoulder at is as vendors work harder and harder to try to make it work for them, we keep going. It's just not built for vendors to do online.
If there was ever a piece of business that specialty brick and mortar could just do better, it's that one thing. And I would love to see brands double down on that and say, we're going to support resale in all of our specialty stores in Grassroots.
We think everybody should have a component of it. You know, my daughter, who's. Who started that, and she and the guy that runs it are going to do an education session at the next Connect trade show.
Colin True
00:13:33.090 - 00:13:33.890
Oh, that's great.
Todd Frank
00:13:34.370 - 00:13:52.130
About how to set up, you know, because for us, it was really about not building a new business, but how do you integrate a piece of it into what you're doing? So, you know, there. There are these. These little nuggets of.
Of bright light that I see that I think on the whole, you know, specialty is in a really pretty good place relative to everyone.
Colin True
00:13:52.530 - 00:15:38.670
I think a lot of people, maybe the more influential voices at brands kind of need to kind of recognize what's happening and maybe and sometimes get out of the way, right?
Because when you do step back and look at things and it's really interesting, like, I think everybody, the people of our generation who grew up in this industry and look at your shop and say, that's it. That's the model. And I'm like, I'm not. I said this on Monday's pod. I don't know if that's the model anymore.
You have a really unique thing where you are and what you have access to. And I think about.
You mentioned the golf analogy you just said is really interesting because someone else, actually, the same rep who told me about what happens going on in Minneapolis was also talking about how, hey, think about climbing gyms, right? Climbing gyms now are not just, you know, people who want to go and train to go outside. They are sort of outdoor hubs for a community.
And think about if you go to a climbing gym.
The last three pairs of rock climbing gym shoes I purchased were at a rock climbing gym because I probably needed my kids outgrew their shoes or whatever it was. I wasn't thinking, I'll wait to go order online or go to REI or go to Nomad Ventures down the street or whatever. I said, no, I'm here at the gym.
I'm going to go buy those shoes that are right there.
And it's like that That I wonder if there's almost a return to form to that, but then also just the kind of generalist expectations of the assortments in shops. I think it's just changed forever.
I mean, unless your shop specializes in something where it's located, like your shop is in a particular place that demands a specific assortment, what's wrong with that sort of softer assortment that will drive what it will be successful in most shops anyway? You know what I mean? You know, I'm kind of getting at. I think that's sort of.
And I do think there's some people in the industry, especially in the brand front, who still just kind of want to say, like, no specialty retail needs to be that hard goods assortment and that footwear assortment. It's like, yeah, but why not assort based off of what's near the store and the consumer's there?
I don't know, there's just too many more options to kind of pigeonhole it into one thing anymore.
Todd Frank
00:15:38.910 - 00:16:32.980
Yeah, I mean, I do think you as a retailer, you run a risk of doing like losing the core values of what somebody walks into a store like ours for. I mean, you walk in and we have hard goods up front. We want to tell people that's what we do.
We know, you know, we've got all this great clothing and we, you know, we have all this stuff happening. But at the end of the day, I, I think part of our identity is to show people that no, we care about this gear.
Like, we love this gear and we're going to help you figure out what the right piece of it is, you know, and that's, I mean, it's certainly challenging.
But I think the shops, you know, that, that I've seen that have gone away from that, you know, then, you know, they just, I mean, there's a lot of business to be had in some markets there. And again, I think it's really market dependent.
And, you know, I've been in Missoula for 40 some years now and have a pretty good sense for what our community wants from us.
Colin True
00:16:33.300 - 00:16:33.660
Right.
Todd Frank
00:16:33.660 - 00:17:10.400
You know, and so I don't know that it's really about me driving that as much as it is about consumers that come in.
But, you know, what we hear from people all the time that walk in our front door, especially in the summer when we have visitors, is, God, we don't have anything like this at home.
Like, you know, we got an REI or we got, you know, this other store that does a lot of clothing, but we don't have anybody that has, you Know, a wall of backpacks or 11 kinds of backpacking stoves or, you know, the sort of stuff that, you know, honestly, we don't really make a lot of money selling that stuff, but it really is. It's part of our identity, and it's. It's a core component to what we bring to the table for brands.
Colin True
00:17:10.560 - 00:18:23.160
But there's a local demand, though, too, right? Because I think. And I get that. And if I.
If you're from a place where, you know, maybe the outdoor activities aren't as rich as they are in Missoula, and you walk into your local REI or shop and it's mostly, you know, cool pants, no disrespect, cool. And like. And Merrell hiking shoes. Right. I get why, then walk into your shop, you're like, holy shit, this is an outdoor store.
But then it's also, if I'm the person who owns that store, that local store, that is a little softer focused because the activities just don't support it.
Because, you know, you know, okay, if I stock ice axes and backpacks, but I sell two of them a year, you know, because I can go on to garage grown gear or any number of outdoor sites and procure that stuff for anybody going on, like, a destination trip, you know, do I really want to tie up that much money in inventory that just isn't going to move, right. Versus I think there's other ways you can kind of service those people.
Like, how do you bring attention to those categories without maybe overextending yourself on the inventory front?
And I think that might just be more the era that we're heading towards, because I think ultimately what we do agree on is what is the experience, Right? And Owen mentioned this on the show on Monday, too. It's like, it's that just that.
That vibe you get in when you walk in a shop and you're like, okay, I'm in here. And now I just really want to go do something outdoor. Ultimately, what your.
I think the mission should be for a good outdoor retailer, I mean, that's.
Todd Frank
00:18:23.160 - 00:18:55.970
Certainly what our mission is. We want people to walk in and walk out of here being like, oh, man, let's go on a hike. This is really inspiring.
And we're lucky because we live in this place that's at a nexus of a whole bunch of different kinds of activities. And I think what I see the challenge is if you're trying to have a store, and I don't want to pick on la, but in la, you know, it's. It's.
It's a larger barrier to get people from your front door to an activity that is logically adjacent to the category that you're selling.
Colin True
00:18:56.290 - 00:19:49.990
Well, okay, LA is an interesting example and this has been kind of surprising things. I've been in Southern California for five years now. I'm really fortunate that where I live I do have nomad ventures nearby.
So I have a really solid, you know, outdoor gear shop that I can go shopping at. I don't have to be overly reliant on REI and Dick's when I want to have that retail experience.
But the thing that I think is misunderstood about Southern California is how mountain it is and how much outdoor opportunity there really is. And I. And also then it's very populous so you would think, okay, there's a million like fuzz shops. Like why can't we have a few more outdoor stores?
I don't, I don't really know why there's this dearth of outdoor shops in this area. I mean, if you want to put it in downtown la, I agree with you.
But in the surrounding area, you think, man, I feel like we could support more stores here, but there's just no outdoor shops anymore here. Ever since a 16 left, it's like, no, we're, we're not going to even try. And I'm wondering, curious why that is.
I'm not saying that you have the answers, but I've always been really curious like why we don't have more outdoor shops in Southern California.
Todd Frank
00:19:50.550 - 00:20:23.820
Well, yeah, I mean, I would just say this is that the places that I've been to that have had very successful, robust outdoor gear marketplaces oftentimes are close to destinations that people are specifically going to ski or they're going to climb or they're going, you know, and you go to a place like LA and there's so many other distractions within those communities that people are spending their money on that you gotta be a pretty core person to want to, you know, seek out a shop in a place like that where it's just, you know, it's going to be a drive.
Colin True
00:20:23.820 - 00:20:33.660
Right, right. Plus then, you know, backcountry put that shop in the Grove, which was just a terrible idea because it was not a great looking store either. Anyway.
Actually it was a good looking store, which is a bad assortment. Anyway.
Todd Frank
00:20:34.060 - 00:20:36.380
Well, we could go down that road for a long time.
Colin True
00:20:36.780 - 00:21:08.010
Sorry. Shots fired in backcountry. Moving in the Goa piece of it all. Like, so I've posited on the show and probably, I think even when Gabe Meyer Came on.
I wonder if GOA has kind of the weight or the ability to be a more vocal group, maybe put some pressure back on the brands. That would maybe raise the value of a brand's presence in GOA stores and thus elevating specialty retail in general.
As a GOA dealer and someone sitting on the GOA board, I mean, do you think that the organization could do more to raise the profile of specialty dealers and kind of leverage what you guys do as a group with outdoor brands?
Todd Frank
00:21:08.490 - 00:23:21.790
Man, we're trying, yes. I mean, I think we can, but I think that's something that's, that's central to what we talk about as an organization.
And you know, we're, I mean we want, we want all specialty to do better.
And so we, you know, while Grassroots is a relatively exclusive group, you know, we have about 105 shares, owners of, you know, the people have stores, you know, that number changes a little bit based on the, you know, losing a store, gaining a store, or the board of directors can adjust, add additional share. So, you know, I mean, at this point, frankly, we're running the largest trade show for outdoor in America.
I mean we, you know, we literally, I think in some ways are. It's sort of us and REI or us and the rei, Dick's kind of side of the business.
You know, we represent something that brands, you know, I mean, they need to be in store.
You know, a brand told me one time, they said, you know, if we're doing well on specialty and Grassroots store, on the floor of Grassroots stores, we know we're doing well because that's the most competitive market that we could ever put our product on the floor in. And if we do well there, that means we're probably going to do well in the broad market.
If specialty is not picking up our product for some reason or it's not doing well against a competitor, then that's a really important time for us to look back.
And I think, you know, we bring a level of authenticity and two party validation to products in our stores that you just can't buy in a D2C format or an online format because there's just so much noise. And when people walk in and they see that curated collection.
Yeah, I mean, I do think brands understand how important specialty is and I hear it all the time. We really want Grassroots to be successful. We want you guys to be stronger. Should we have a bigger voice in the overall industry?
Probably we're not consumer facing at all.
Like there's no sign on our door that says, you know, we're like, you know, when you go to an independent brewery, there's a little sign on the door that says, we're a member of the Independent brewers association, you know, so I think there's opportunity for a more consumer facing side of it. But that's, you know, those are lifts that as an organization we're just continuing to talk about and work on every day.
Colin True
00:23:22.350 - 00:24:21.620
It is funny for all the, you know, the discourse around like shows and things like that, you know, for the Connect show, which I would wager pre Covid. I mean, how much of the industry, largely speaking, was even aware of the Connect show, right?
I mean the people, the people with the brand who needed to know were there. Right. It's kind of like the overall general awareness of GOA Connect. I mean, less than 20% maybe.
You know, I think you could probably argue was pretty, pretty small. Like the people who who needed to know knew and that was it. And now I hear I get asked a lot. Oh, we went to Connect. Like what was it?
Should I, should I go to that? You know, like, like people don't even quite get like what the. What it is yet, but it's becoming a little bit more of a common topic.
And I've said, you know, the folks, I think even at Switchback or whatever, I'm like, figure out a way to co locate with Joa Connect if you want your show to be relevant. I'm not sure I. Not that you guys would ever even agree to that, but it's just like everybody you would want to have at your show is going to Connect.
So like, that is definitely, I think the, the set you guys are setting the bar for what, you know, an event should be right now in terms of on the trade side anyway, in 2025.
Todd Frank
00:24:22.490 - 00:24:28.210
Well, you know, of all the trade shows that have existed and I don't really want to go down the trade show rabbit hole that far.
Colin True
00:24:28.210 - 00:24:30.330
No, I didn't either. It wasn't on my list to do today, but, you know.
Todd Frank
00:24:30.330 - 00:24:55.710
Yeah, but I think the thing that we just talked about today was of all the trade shows that have been in existence, Connect is the one trade show that has this laser focused mission. It was built by retailers for our needs. It answers what we want to get done at a trade show.
And the question is, could a broader trade show still do that? Like, that's the.
Colin True
00:24:56.350 - 00:24:57.230
I don't think so.
Todd Frank
00:24:58.670 - 00:25:15.730
I think, I mean that's the challenge that I think we're all faced with is I think everybody recognizes. Sure.
It'd be wonderful to go back to the days where we had those amazing networking events at or, but you know, we weren't doing the kind of work we're doing at Connect at all.
Colin True
00:25:16.130 - 00:25:59.590
Try to, I think there's still like, we've said it with like such. We switch back and you're right, we shouldn't go on a total rabbit hole with trade shows.
But it is like recognize what the event is for and if the event is for getting together, that's not, That's a worthy initiative. Right. But to your point, my two favorite things, events I've been to in the last few years, GOA Connect and then the OMA Media Summit.
I'm not Media Summit. Media Media event. Because it's laser focused about what it's about. You come here for this and it's like, okay, good.
I know, I'm, I know why I'm spending money to show up at this event. Right.
And then if the other, if like a switchback or somebody can grow to be that sort of big gathering where it's like, well, you got to go to that because like, that's what we do every year. That's great too. I'm on board with that. I endorse that. But you know, that needs to be earned over time for sure.
Todd Frank
00:25:59.830 - 00:26:36.870
Yeah, yeah.
And I, you know, I think, yeah, I mean there's, there's lots of pieces to it, but I think, you know, that re vendors are going to tend to show up where retailers want to be to do business.
And so if you can figure out how to make that happen, you know, there's probably a solution to this problem that we're all trying to solve for and we're part of it. You know, we're not the outdoor industry. Like, we get that.
And one of the things that we continue to work on at Grassroots is to make sure that we go back to that North Star of, you know, what is Grassroots? What are we doing? Why are we here? What's our mission? And make sure that we sort of truth test everything we get asked to do against that.
Colin True
00:26:37.470 - 00:26:48.910
That's why I think you guys should kick in the door in some of these brands and be like, listen, GOA is doing this across the board. Get on board with it or you're out. That brand's out of our stores. You're out.
Todd Frank
00:26:49.550 - 00:27:02.670
Yeah, well, you know, like, at the end of the day, I like to joke that I'm the low volume, high maintenance guy that you're going to deal with. I'm a total pain in the ass. But, you know, I don't do Very much business either. I want a lot. You're not going to get much out of it.
Colin True
00:27:02.670 - 00:27:07.730
Why do we think this guy's so important? I don't. Have you seen the. Have you seen the. The pos. Not great.
Todd Frank
00:27:08.210 - 00:27:09.090
No, not great.
Colin True
00:27:11.090 - 00:28:09.190
All right. Hey, listen, I appreciate you joining me today. I do have one question for you before we leave because this is a bit of a teaser.
This is going to come out on Friday the 5th. On Monday's episode, we're doing this. We're going to do a little kind of predictions episode.
And so I'm going to ask you now as a teaser for that Monday episode, so, you know, kind of universally accepted this year that, like, you know, the comeback story of the year was Mountain Hardware. Right. It started a bit last year. Right.
But everybody kind of pretty happy with where Hardware has gotten to, given where it was over the past decade or so. So we're going to make our predictions. Fall 26. You know, the Mountain Hardware comeback award winner will be. And I'm going to give you 10 options.
You tell me who you think it's going to be. All right? On the list we have Marmot, Columbia, Nike, Choco, Under Armour, TNF Vans, Hydro Flask, Black Diamond, Prana, or Solo Stove.
Now, I know there's probably some on there that maybe you don't carry in your shop, but they all sort of. We wanted to go with, like, publicly traded company people. We could really kind of track their finances to see how they would do.
Todd Frank
00:28:09.430 - 00:28:09.910
Yeah.
Colin True
00:28:09.910 - 00:28:14.950
So that list, is there anybody who jumps out as, like, that's gonna be the next year's Mountain Hardware?
Todd Frank
00:28:15.029 - 00:28:17.590
Absolutely. Yeah. Black diamond for sure.
Colin True
00:28:17.590 - 00:28:17.990
Yeah.
Todd Frank
00:28:18.230 - 00:29:02.280
You know, I mean, I will tell you that, you know, this business has always been about relationships. And, you know, we had completely stopped buying Black Diamond. We left them, which is crazy for a shop.
This was, you know, my account number with Black diamond is the same as my account number with Patagonia. I mean, we've been doing business since they were one company. And we stopped for about two years. We stopped buying product.
And, you know, I trust the team of people running that business right now more than I have trusted any team running any business that I do business with in a decade or more. Neil's the real deal. I mean, he is like a straight shooter. And I think that.
That if they play their cards right, you know, I think there's an opportunity there that doesn't exist.
Colin True
00:29:02.840 - 00:29:03.360
Yeah.
Todd Frank
00:29:03.360 - 00:29:14.280
For other. For other people, sure, I do. I will.
I got to throw out, though, that, you know, the Mountain Hardware thing The national sales manager for Mountain Hardware was my heart or my apparel buyer for about 14 years.
Colin True
00:29:14.440 - 00:29:16.120
Oh, we're taking credit. I love it.
Todd Frank
00:29:16.200 - 00:30:16.910
So fully taking credit for the success of Mountain Hardware because she took the mission to those guys and said if you want to get back into special. Now to be fair, we don't buy Mountain Hardware here because we have a large regional chain based in Montana that has had a big hardware commitment.
And the second that they don't buy it, we'll buy back in.
But you know, one of the long term tenants I've always had is that if I truly want to be special, be called a specialty outdoor store, people need to walk in my store and see brands that they don't see everywhere else in town.
And you know, we have a large state like level retailer and then we also have shields and between the two of them there's not a lot of room left for us to find things that nobody else carries. I mean it's gotten right, you know, but they're out there and we just have to work harder at it and you know, it's riskier. So you know, we have.
Yeah, it's a good balance. Right. But fully credit for the Mountain Hardware thing, I'm just going to put that out there.
Troy can call me if he wants and argue with me, but I'm going.
Colin True
00:30:16.910 - 00:30:26.480
To say Aaron, no, I think Troy Psychot, president of Mountain Hardware. Where's, where's, you know, where's Todd's kickback? You know, he can't carry your brand. You better make sure you're sending some checks to Missoula.
Todd Frank
00:30:26.480 - 00:30:38.840
You know, I trained Aaron on what it means to be a specialty retailer. Of course she went on to do a whole bunch of other amazing things afterwards. So, you know, full credit to her as a, as an amazing person.
Colin True
00:30:38.920 - 00:30:41.000
I get her on the phone, she's like Todd who? What?
Todd Frank
00:30:41.000 - 00:30:41.880
Yeah, exactly.
Colin True
00:30:42.680 - 00:30:45.480
I don't know. I never lived in Missoula. I don't know what you're talking about. But the.
Todd Frank
00:30:45.480 - 00:30:45.800
Right.
Colin True
00:30:45.800 - 00:30:46.120
Yeah.
Todd Frank
00:30:46.120 - 00:30:46.730
Never heard of him.
Colin True
00:30:47.360 - 00:31:10.120
Well, we might have to. I might, I might have to eliminate. But I, I agree. I think Black diamond is the, the hands down favorite. You know that would just be.
You wouldn't make any money if you bet on them in Vegas. You know I think they're because. And I agree with the Neil, Neil, former guest of the pod, just legit leader and doing all the right things there.
We may have to take him take Black diamond off the list for Monday's episode because it just seems like it's it's too. It's just too obvious. It's not gonna be a fun conversation. So that's what I thought you were gonna say.
Todd Frank
00:31:10.120 - 00:31:27.100
But, yeah, no, I love Columbia's new. New campaign. I think it's fantastic.
You guys did a bunch of work on it, and, you know, we haven't bought Columbia and probably close to 30 years here at the store. But that doesn't mean I don't have a ton of respect for, like, trying to figure out how to be in the right place at the right time.
Colin True
00:31:27.100 - 00:31:53.450
And it sounds like talking to Matt Sutton, who came on last week, that, you know, that. That if they're gonna see this through, maybe you would rethink that. Their goal would be to make you rethink that. Right. And I actually got in.
It was some guy who was getting into it with me on this, on the whole campaign on LinkedIn, and he's like, did you think about buying anything after you saw the video? I'm like, actually, I kind of did.
I immediately went to the website to see what their assortment looked like because it made me interested in the brand. So it did make me want to. I didn't, but I also was. I definitely looked. Yeah.
Todd Frank
00:31:53.450 - 00:31:59.810
I mean, I think, you know, when. When we look at why brands make sense for our stores, can we tell a story about that brand? You know?
Colin True
00:31:59.810 - 00:32:00.170
Right.
Todd Frank
00:32:00.410 - 00:32:30.700
I mean, you know, if the Sandal guys we tell a story about because they're from Missoula, you know, the Mystery Ranch pack guys, because they are from Bozeman, I mean, there's, you know, there's a lot of stories that we get to tell about why we support a particular brand. And, you know, if you have a good story to tell retailers, you know, we. We can kind of. We have our choice. We can sell almost anything.
So give us a good story and give us a place to sell something nobody else has in the market or at least is not grossly over distributed, and we'll find a way to sell it.
Colin True
00:32:31.100 - 00:32:33.660
Todd, thanks for taking a few minutes to hang out with me today.
Todd Frank
00:32:33.740 - 00:32:35.100
Yeah, thank you. We'll talk soon.
Colin True
00:32:36.780 - 00:33:10.040
All right, that's the show for today. Thanks to my guest, Todd Frank. What do you think about all of this sense?
Send us your emails to myrockfightmail.com we want to hear all about it, especially if you're a retailer, if you're a brand, if you're one of those curmudgeons I talked about earlier that thinks the industry is going down the toilet. Send me your emails. Myrockfightmail.com. the Rock fight's a production of rock fight llc. I'm Colin true. Thanks for listening.
And back to close us out and take you into the weekend is the voice of the rock fight Krista makes with the rock fight fights song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:33:18.440 - 00:34:05.660
Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big fights about topics that that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Todd Frank
00:34:08.380 - 00:34:08.860
Rock.
Chris DeMakes
00:34:10.620 - 00:34:11.020
Fight.