Summit Hut Closes: Is The Era Of The Outdoor Gear Shop Over?
- colin7931
- 1 day ago
- 37 min read
Today Colin is joined by The Monday Boys (outdoor industry insider Eoin Comerford and brand & creative expert Producer Dave) to talk about the following topics and news to come out of the outdoor industry over the past week!
The Footlocker/Dicks merger is one step closer to being finalized. What's next? (05:55)
The Lightning Round: Nike loses to While On Earth, Polartec's Warm Weather Fleece, and Athleta's disappointing second quarter. (11:05)
The big news of the week? Retailer Summit Hut announces that it will be closing its doors. Is this a sign of the outdoor industry's demise or just another sign that things are evolving? (18:12)
The Outdoor Brand Scorecard! Eoin put together a scorecard to evaluate outdoor brands relationship with their retailers. (32:26)
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Episode Transcript:
Colin True
00:00:00.160 - 00:01:05.430
Hey, everyone, before we keep going here, I need to tell you about our teammates at Darby Communications.
Like I've been telling you, if you run an outdoor, an endurance or an active lifestyle brand, there is no better PR and digital marketing belay partner or drinking buddy than Darby. They can help your business reach new heights, and they might just keep you from falling on your ass.
Since we started working with Darby, more and more people. And this is an important point now. Guys, I want you to hear me on this.
More and more people have reached out to us here at the Rock Flight because of that messaging. Look, guys, I'm dead serious. If they can help us, they can help anybody. Hit them up@darbycommunications.com do it today.
Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True, and joining me today, straight from the top of the podcast charts, it's the Monday boys. Outdoor industry insider Owen Comerford and brand and creative expert producer Dave. What's up, guys?
Producer Dave
00:01:05.430 - 00:01:05.750
Hello.
Eoin Comerford
00:01:05.750 - 00:01:06.190
Hello.
Colin True
00:01:06.430 - 00:01:09.230
We are straight from the top, from the podcast charts. Yeah, I want everyone.
Producer Dave
00:01:09.230 - 00:01:10.750
Well, we're at the bottom of the top.
Eoin Comerford
00:01:11.790 - 00:01:13.630
Well, that's still close to the top.
Producer Dave
00:01:13.630 - 00:01:15.310
It sure is. It sure is.
Colin True
00:01:16.110 - 00:01:18.910
The sports chart, not just the outdoor charts.
Eoin Comerford
00:01:18.910 - 00:01:21.470
Right, right. Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Producer Dave
00:01:21.550 - 00:01:28.100
We have conquered the outdoor charts, except for the. The meat eating carnivore group, which who's.
Colin True
00:01:28.100 - 00:01:29.020
Ever going to top. No.
Producer Dave
00:01:29.020 - 00:01:34.260
And you want to stay kind of your distance from that. You don't want to get caught up in that frenzy. Oh, my gosh.
Eoin Comerford
00:01:34.260 - 00:01:41.460
But that, yeah, the sports track, I mean, we. We beat some pretty, like, known names out there. That's kind of wild.
Colin True
00:01:42.100 - 00:01:45.220
Basically, what we're saying suck at other outdoor podcasts.
Eoin Comerford
00:01:45.700 - 00:01:55.760
No, we're not saying that. No, no, we're not saying that. Colin is saying that. Producer Dave and I are definitely not saying that. Thank you.
Producer Dave
00:01:56.000 - 00:01:56.720
Thank you.
Colin True
00:01:56.960 - 00:02:38.460
On today's show, we are going to be talking about some headlines that come out of the outdoor industry. But before we get to any of that, some programming reminders. Tomorrow, Doug Schnitzman opens the container like he always does on Tuesday.
So head over to the open container feed and follow that show. His guest this week is author and photographer Andrew Cornelak. And no doubt we'll have another episode of the Rock Fight later this week.
But what really matters is that this Thursday, September 4, is Gear Abbey launch day, hosted by our own Shante Salibair. Gear. Abby will answer your Burning Outdoor questions.
So be sure to follow that show as well so you don't miss Thursday's two episode drop and hey, Dave, how, how can our listeners get more out of their experience with all of the Rock Fight properties?
Producer Dave
00:02:38.540 - 00:02:49.340
Rock Fight Co, Colin. Rock Fight Co. Newsletters, websites, lots of pretty pictures. That's the place to go.
Colin True
00:02:49.900 - 00:02:52.500
One of these days I'll write another newsletter. It will happen, I promise.
Eoin Comerford
00:02:52.500 - 00:02:52.820
I know.
Producer Dave
00:02:52.820 - 00:03:01.880
But you know what? Now that you've got press junkets and all this heat coming from this highly rated PODC podcast, who knows it's true? Who knows it's true?
Colin True
00:03:02.200 - 00:03:07.440
I think pretty sure we're booked on the Tonight show next week, guys. I hope you got your, your flight ready. Like, oh my God, the Rock Fights.
Producer Dave
00:03:07.440 - 00:03:10.600
I think you're gonna say we were booked on Colbert, but then you know.
Colin True
00:03:12.280 - 00:03:13.560
Oh, is that something going on?
Producer Dave
00:03:13.880 - 00:03:18.040
We're the first guest after they shut it down. That is exactly right.
Colin True
00:03:18.040 - 00:03:25.480
Oh, guys, you just missed the cut. Oh, and how can our listeners also reach out to us?
Eoin Comerford
00:03:26.150 - 00:03:47.270
Well, they can email us@myrockfightmail.com, reach out on LinkedIn, just search for Rockfight or on Instagram, where we are RockfightCo. All one word and you can follow along, Send us a message. But please, email, I think is the best. It's the one that makes Colin happiest, I think.
Colin True
00:03:47.990 - 00:03:56.790
Well, you as well, you're an email guy. Dave is a purely text guy. So I have to live at the intersection of text and email with coordinating with you guys generational trauma.
Producer Dave
00:03:56.790 - 00:03:57.510
You can do it.
Eoin Comerford
00:03:57.510 - 00:04:08.830
Well, actually, Colin is a phone guy. That's true. Yes. He, he'll just. I'll see that pop up on the phone. I, I don't have an extra 30 minutes.
Colin True
00:04:08.830 - 00:04:17.190
I'm sorry. I'm never offended if, no, if people don't answer, but if I'm out and about, I'm like, I'll give it a call. Maybe you'll pick up.
You know what's going to happen.
Producer Dave
00:04:17.190 - 00:04:20.710
We have the three mediums covered between phone, email and text, so.
Colin True
00:04:21.430 - 00:05:03.040
All right, so quick Mailbag.
After our conversation last week on the Mon with the Monday boys about the Nike Lava Dome and then also the new trend of gravel shoes, we heard from Wilderness Exchange owner Don Bushy, former champion on the Rock Fight, who had this to say about gravel shoes.
Specifically, said Colin, I can concur that every specialty retailer on earth is euphoric to add gravel yet another category to their already bloated and skewed drifted footwear walls. At.
While at Wilderness, we're even setting up a new gravel micrometer tech bench where we can determine through customer sourced field specimens the average gravel size of the surface in question and accurately recommend the appropriate tread, tread depth for their local trail.
Producer Dave
00:05:03.520 - 00:05:04.000
Wow.
Colin True
00:05:04.160 - 00:05:05.480
Excellent email, Don Bushy.
Eoin Comerford
00:05:05.480 - 00:05:10.080
See, that is the kind of service that really sets independent specialty retail apart.
Producer Dave
00:05:10.080 - 00:05:12.000
Yeah, I agree. I agree.
Colin True
00:05:12.800 - 00:05:36.080
I wish more footwear designers and product people would talk to people like Don Bushy before they start making things. Because I can see it. You could see the room, right? Like, hey man, what if we had a gravel? You know, gravel bikes are crushing it out there.
What if we had a gravel shoe? Oh, my God. Great idea, Bill. Let's, let's get on that. You know, like no man talk to Don. He doesn't want a gravel shoe.
Eoin Comerford
00:05:36.560 - 00:05:48.000
A lot of it is also, you know, we're really a trail running brand. Nobody will believe us if we do road, but if we do gravel, that's the stepping stone. Yes, exactly.
Colin True
00:05:48.000 - 00:06:33.880
Look out, Asics, here we come. Thanks, Don, for writing in. All right, let's move on to the opening shot of today's episode, which is presented by Lem's Shoes.
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Producer Dave
00:06:34.520 - 00:06:35.080
Boom.
Colin True
00:06:35.160 - 00:07:08.970
All right, guys.
So today, first up, per sgb, Foot Locker shareholders have voted to approve the acquisition of the famed retailer by Dick's Sporting Goods, bringing the merger of the two one step closer to fruition, said Mary Dillon, Foot Lockers CEO, quote, we are now one step closer to joining forces with Dick's and even better, positioning the business to expand sneaker culture, elevate the Omni Channel experience for our customers and brand partners, and enhance our position in the industry. So, Owen, just looking ahead, it's been a minute since we touched on this story.
Any big hurdles still looming, you think, for this merger to be finalized?
Eoin Comerford
00:07:09.210 - 00:07:32.940
Well, I think that was pretty much it they've passed the FTC review period where somebody might have raised an objection about the antitrust or uncompetitive nature of two really big retailers joining together. That's passed. So yeah, I think it's going to close here on the 8th of September.
Colin True
00:07:33.820 - 00:07:45.660
So we've been tracking this story since it was announced in May.
And given how the tariff turmoil has played out since then, do you think there's any concerns or predictions for the footwear world if and what sounds like and when the merger is finalized?
Eoin Comerford
00:07:46.020 - 00:10:29.910
I don't think so.
Like we were talking about last week that just that the overall momentum that we're seeing in the, in the footwear category, it has been such that it hasn't really been derailed by the whole tariff thing. It's just been a bit of a road bump for footwear.
Plus most of it's now concentrated in Vietnam, which is actually settled in at a 20% level, which I think is going to stick for a while. Who the heck knows. But that's the current feeling.
The other thing I would say is that the for industry is not unused to tariffs because it's one of the higher tariff areas. Historically anywhere from 20 to 37.5% is what they were facing even before all this thing happened. So I think they're used to working through that.
To me, the concern from investors and the stock was down a little bit post Dick's earnings on Thursday. The concern though is that Foot Locker may be just becoming more of a boat anchor, right?
You've got Dick's and they're going in different directions, right? You've got Dick's Q2 comp sales up 5% continued really strong results there. Foot locker down 2% yet again continued down, down and down.
Dick's Gross margin up 33 basis points. Foot locker down 50 basis points. So it's not, not a great scenario there.
I think overall though, like what, what does it mean for the wider industry is that, and this came up on Dick's earnings call yesterday, they view their relationship with all these brands, especially Nike, as really the way for them to unlock the, the value at Foot Locker by improving their, their assortment. Right?
So getting more quote unquote high heat styles into those stores which then drive a differentiated assortment, more full price sales, more higher value sales. Right? All this, all this good stuff. The issue though is that there's a finite amount of those high heat styles or demand for those high heat styles.
So the allocation, if they are going to get more allocation has to come from somewhere so it's either going to come from the D2C sites for those brands. Maybe probably not. Right. Or it's going to come from other retailers.
And that's probably the bigger concern, especially for the outdoor industry because we stock a lot of these brands, whether it's on or Brooks or Hoka, et cetera, but we're not really core for those brands. And so are we going to see potentially less of the high end, the Cliftons, the Clouds, et cetera, from those brands for outdoor?
Producer Dave
00:10:30.370 - 00:10:41.890
I'm actually more interested in this conversation of Dicks and footlocker. You know, that merging together in one. Colin, it must be set. Are we waiting for Dick Locker?
Colin True
00:10:44.610 - 00:10:45.090
Yes.
Eoin Comerford
00:10:46.930 - 00:10:47.330
Right.
Colin True
00:10:47.650 - 00:10:48.810
The call of the House of Sports.
Producer Dave
00:10:48.810 - 00:10:51.490
Is that in the inevitable. Is that where this goes to?
Eoin Comerford
00:10:51.890 - 00:10:52.250
Yes.
Colin True
00:10:52.250 - 00:10:55.370
You had to Dick Locker on your way to House of Sports, I think is what happened.
Producer Dave
00:10:55.370 - 00:10:58.690
I think so too. The best of both worlds together.
Colin True
00:11:01.050 - 00:11:01.850
That's amazing.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:02.250 - 00:11:02.890
No comment.
Colin True
00:11:05.690 - 00:11:30.320
And with that, it's time for the lightning round.
All right, so earlier this week, San Francisco 49ers running back Christian McCaffrey has taken an equity stake in performance and apparel footwear brand While on Earth. I've never heard of them, but apparently that's a thing.
Owen, do you think McCaffrey's involvement will result in an on the bench line of performance clothing for those who are often injured?
Eoin Comerford
00:11:30.400 - 00:11:41.199
I think maybe it might be that the special 3F line for a fancy football fiasco. I think that would be speaking from personal experience.
Colin True
00:11:41.680 - 00:11:44.640
Oh, did you have McCaffrey last year on your fantasy football team?
Eoin Comerford
00:11:44.640 - 00:11:57.680
Maybe on one of them. I mean. Yeah. Hey, that's rough. That is rough. I think the interesting thing here is that he's given up that sweet, sweet Nike money to do this. Right?
Colin True
00:11:57.680 - 00:11:58.160
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:58.240 - 00:12:35.500
And while it, while, you know, I think people look at the, the Kim Kardashians of the world or whatever and then think, oh, well, I can, I can do that. If you think about it, right, let's say he's given up 2 million a year. Okay. Just from.
From a dollars and cents perspective and he's got partners and whatever else. Okay, this thing's going to need to be like a hundred million dollars and it's going to lose money for like two or three years.
Of course, all new brands do. Right. So it's going to require money, right, to get.
I mean, this thing needs to get to be like $100 million before he gets paid back for all those Nike dollars he missed along the way. I mean, I don't know. It's it's interesting.
Colin True
00:12:35.820 - 00:12:57.970
Next thing last week, performance textile maker Polartech debuted Power Dry mesh which they describe in short as lightweight warm weather fleece.
So Dave, not to take a shot of our at our former employer, but when trying to mark when we're trying to market something eternally associated with cold weather, which is fleece, and now they're trying to do it as something you can use in the summertime. Are we officially scraping the bottom of the fabric barrel?
Producer Dave
00:13:00.450 - 00:14:18.400
Oh well, look, Power Dry is a long time part of the Polartec stable, right. It's one of the base layers known for See this is the interesting. It's known for moisture wicking. It's got dry in the name, right?
And so you've got this moisture wicking base layer. They are and you know it's a bi component knit. So you're putting two pieces together, you're not blending it.
And this has really been kind of Polartech's calling card, like putting fibers where they need to go to do the most good. So it kind of fits into that that they're expanding out and they've done different versions of Power Drive before.
So this isn't totally new and I think it's just more in the actually speaks to a couple things. One, versatility is what they're all about. They're trying to give you the widest range with their lines for your use.
But really too this just speaks to the time period they are in their brand and kind of their ownership. They're in the iterative stage. We're not seeing any kind of leaps in technology or leaps in innovation.
It's how can we mine more out of our current platforms to give them a little bit, just a little nudge in a different direction to create a new use case story. So I think that's how it just all fits together. But the idea of something of warm weather, fleece is a tough word for that.
But this idea of just warm enough is I think something they're really, really looking at.
Colin True
00:14:19.120 - 00:14:24.880
It's an interesting answer, but the correct answer was yes, we are officially scraping the bottom of the fabric barrel.
Eoin Comerford
00:14:25.840 - 00:14:35.360
No, hey, actually I work with a brand called Ewer and they just released a warm weather version of their fleece treasure dress and it sold out in hours.
Colin True
00:14:36.320 - 00:15:20.130
I think on a garment perspective that makes a lot. I see that and I know what they're going for with this. It's like all kidding aside and I think that makes sense. Sense.
I just think the Dave's point Fleece, when I'm if I'M a product designer, and you're showing me. Oh, here's summer fleece. It might be a little like, okay, guys, like, you know, how many other lightweight fabrics do I have to choose from?
But that's an interesting point about what you were doing, and I'm sure I can picture it in my head, and I can. I want to go check it out now. All right, last story for the lightning round.
After a disappointing second quarter for Athleta, their owner, Gap Incorporated, is predicting a reset to return to form will take a fair amount of time as they make moves to right the ship. Oh, and Athleta is a founding member of brands that led to the rise of Athleisure.
Given where modern trends are and where Athleta sits today, can we safely say that Athleisure is officially dead?
Eoin Comerford
00:15:21.090 - 00:15:35.700
No, but that's. That's a classic. True hot take. No. Yeah. No, no. The industry is dead, Colin. Everything dead. Podcasting is dead.
Colin True
00:15:35.940 - 00:15:36.860
Podcasting's dead.
Producer Dave
00:15:36.860 - 00:15:37.220
That's right.
Colin True
00:15:37.220 - 00:15:39.940
The rock fight's on the charts. We can't have podcasting anymore.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:40.340 - 00:15:55.860
No, but I would say it is definitely oversaturated.
I mean, basically, every brand that is even, like, tangentially related to anything active has joined the Athleisure trend, including, let's face it, a lot of outdoor brands, Right?
Colin True
00:15:55.860 - 00:15:56.580
Oh, yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:57.220 - 00:16:22.150
So, yeah, I think that's really more of the story here.
The other thing I would say is that they just also announced as part of this that they've moved on to their second president since REI's Marybeth Lawton left the president role two years ago. So I'm guessing MB is going, aha. So, yeah, see, this is. You know, I guess things weren't so bad when I was first.
Colin True
00:16:22.150 - 00:16:24.110
Weren't so bad back in the day, huh?
Eoin Comerford
00:16:24.110 - 00:16:24.830
Exactly.
Colin True
00:16:25.870 - 00:16:32.030
Mb, as always, you're always welcome to come on the Rock Fight and we can talk about. We don't have to talk about rei. Let's talk about Atleta.
Eoin Comerford
00:16:32.030 - 00:16:34.090
Let's talk about athletes. What the heck's going on?
Colin True
00:16:34.090 - 00:16:34.570
Yes.
Producer Dave
00:16:34.570 - 00:16:36.970
Stirring up some tea right now. Let's go.
Colin True
00:16:38.970 - 00:17:59.930
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Colin True
00:18:12.490 - 00:18:27.070
All right, Today's main event on the Rock Fight is presented by Oboz, who wants to share their love of hiking. And we want to help them by uncovering all the different ways we love to take the long walk, including the following.
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Producer Dave
00:18:27.070 - 00:18:28.070
Yes. Yes.
Colin True
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That's a common thing.
Eoin Comerford
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Yes.
Colin True
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Number two, because your phone's low battery, warning means freedom, not panic. Is that how you feel, Dave?
Producer Dave
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No, not with the.
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It's still panic.
Producer Dave
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Yeah, right.
Colin True
00:18:41.110 - 00:18:46.150
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Okay.
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I like that.
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00:18:47.830 - 00:20:31.320
Okay.
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Okay, big story today is about Summit Hut because news out of the specialty retail world last week is that the well known GOA dealer Summit Hut out of Tucson, Arizona announced they would be closing. Per a post on their Instagram page, the retailer stated that, quote, the past few years brought a combination of pressures too great to overcome.
Rising costs, brands selling direct, new big box competition, the push for lower prices, shifts toward online shopping and a changing customer base all played a part. Summit Hut ended up In a tough spot. Too big to run super lean, but too small to compete with national chains.
We looked at every possible option, but in the end it just wasn't sustainable. So Summit Hut joins Portland's next adventure. As Goa accounts calling it a day in 2025.
The reaction was swift, with most people lamenting the loss of a shop that has often been held up as an example of a special. As an exact shining example of a special outdoor retail.
And then of course, there are those who are wondering how the industry can survive if a shop like Summit Hut can't make it. A lot to talk about here. So let's start with the big picture, I guess just for both of you, maybe.
Owen, if you want to kick us off, what are your general thoughts after hearing this news about Summit Hut?
Eoin Comerford
00:20:31.560 - 00:21:17.440
Well, first was really sadness for Dana and Jeremy and the whole crew there who really poured their heart and soul into the business for the past decades. This was not a decision, I'm sure that was made lightly and yeah, it definitely hurts.
Second, it really got me thinking about all the factors that are feeding into the issue and the pressure that is on independent outdoor specialty stores, whether that's D2C competition, aging core customers, rising labor, rent, operating costs, even.
Actually climate change is something because the climate is affecting how people get go outdoors or how they can go outdoors in places like Tucson, Arizona. So yeah, a lot of different thoughts swirling around over this one.
Colin True
00:21:18.160 - 00:21:19.200
Dave, how about you?
Producer Dave
00:21:19.440 - 00:21:44.020
You know, I just, I kind of echo all of that. I've been to it one time in my career down in Tucson and I just the big wide open kind of space.
I always just kind of looked at it as definitely an aspirational model in terms of just creating an inviting store. It definitely had. They were kind of a little more ahead of the game, modernized in terms of merchandising and just kind of creating this open space.
Eoin Comerford
00:21:44.180 - 00:21:44.580
Yeah.
Colin True
00:21:44.580 - 00:22:05.540
We've talked about how there have been transfers of ownership of outdoor retailers over the past few years, especially per the goa. There's some good statistics about changing off to new owners and stuff like that.
But when two stores like Summit Hunt or Next Adventure outright close and there is no new shop not named REI that we know of anyway to take its place, what does that really say about the state of outdoor retail?
Eoin Comerford
00:22:05.700 - 00:24:00.880
I think you have to look at the chains that are doing well today within GOA are the chains that are growing, adding stores. I call them the mini chains. They have like 20 plus stores.
Really the big three that I'm seeing right now, you've Got Gearhead Outfitters, you've got Half Moon Outfitters and then Mountain High Outfitters. So they're all outfitters apparently, but really they're not outfitters because they're all very lifestyle focused.
I mean, you might see some gear like a Patagonia Black Hole, duffel, et cetera, but despite their names, you're really not going to out for yourself for a backpacking trip in any of these stores. And it's really much more focused on fashion driven what I would say are more impulse purchases. And there's nothing wrong with that, right?
Because they're just stocking what is selling. But they're not a classic gear store in the Summit Hut sense. Right.
And I really feel that that true outdoor gear shop, like a Summit Hut or Next Adventure for that matter, is in a much tougher spot because, well, a gear has gotten so specialized, right. You can't just have like, you can't like have one, you know, expedition pack on the wall and call it a day, right.
I mean, you can't have just one tent, right. I mean, you really have to have a lot of, a lot of different, different assortment.
And it's also, it's, it's become such a considered purchase that unless you're an outdoor gift store that's at a destination, like, you know, the entryway to, you know, to a national park or something, people are going online, right? And they're going on just to research.
And then when they, when they're online, they're seeing, oh, I can get 15% off my first purchase at, you know, whatever site.com, right. And so then they're going to maybe buy there and not so much in that, in that local gear store.
Colin True
00:24:01.200 - 00:25:33.860
So I'm just becoming growingly increasingly more convinced that the loudest voices in the room here, they don't understand where the industry is actually headed and simply want to force the industry to fit their own definition of it. Like based on what you just said. Exactly, right. I mean, the things that are growing are different than what we've had historically.
I mean, we don't know what's happened at Summit Hut. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of factors.
I mean, Dana said it in her post, or whoever wrote the post, that there were a lot of factors that played into this decision. I've actually reached out to Dana as well to hopefully she'll join the pod at some point to kind of talk about it.
But I just feel like the days of the hardcore gear shop are over. We've talked about this on the podcast, but this kind of just really drives home the point to me.
I don't think this doesn't mean that the outdoor industry can't grow and thrive, because it is growing and thriving just in a different way.
I mean, if you look at the recent OIA participation report, again, more people participating, it's being led by blacks and Latinos, so different people are going outside than have in the past. I think the reality is the broader path that's being forged by retailers, it's focused, like you said, went on less technical products.
And even REI is likely to be the new normal. And if you want or need that more technical product, you can go to a GGG or you can buy direct from the brand to get them.
I mean, honestly, we kind of apply Occam's Razor to the industry. Isn't that sort of the simplest and most likely explanation for what we're seeing?
I mean, I got multiple messages this week of like, how can the industry hope to survive if Summit Hut can't make it? I just don't think. I think that just doesn't acknowledge the sort of broader trends that seem pretty obvious.
If you really take the step back and look at it.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:34.730 - 00:25:36.090
I don't know it's quite that simple.
Colin True
00:25:38.570 - 00:25:39.610
It's that simple.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:39.850 - 00:25:42.650
Of course it is. You're absolutely right. Colin, thank you.
Colin True
00:25:43.450 - 00:25:44.170
Moving on.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:45.050 - 00:27:02.930
No, just because. Okay. What I think you have to ask yourself the question. First of all, I'm not sure I totally buy that all outdoor gear shops are going to go away.
I think there is going to be sort of a molding and a difference and some folks that maybe don't change with the times somewhat, maybe they won't survive. But a good gear shop that's providing great service to their customers I think has a place.
But let's just take what you're saying as actually the truth, that outdoor gear shops are going to go away as we know them. I guess the question becomes, what will that do to the industry? What will it do in terms of participation?
I personally think that would be an awful thing for the industry. It would be an awful thing for participation.
I think a lot of people's first experience with the outdoors and getting into the outdoor gear is at their local gear shop.
And maybe the local gear shop didn't carry everything, but you went in there and there were people that loved doing the things that you were trying to get into, perhaps, and were excited about it and could tell you about it and could tell you about what kind of pack you needed and do all these things and really shepherd you through that process. And if that goes away, are we just relying on ChatGPT for that? I mean, is that where we're, where we're going here?
Colin True
00:27:03.410 - 00:28:24.670
I don't. Why does it have to be one or the other? I mean, if I went.
If you went to a gearhead outfitters who is not kind of to your point, like a little softer, sorry for the word. Right. Why couldn't you have that same experience?
Just because they're not selling kayaks and ice axes, but they're selling, you know, they sell some hard goods with mostly soft goods and shoes. I think, like, there's a lot more.
I think the younger consumers especially are conditioned to shop that way and look at different things and go to secondhand stores.
And maybe like, maybe it's like, ah, you know, I can go to a gearhead online or I can go to ggg or maybe there is that sort of store that is still positioned by the national park that has more things. And when I'm in town I go there, but I can still have the new authentic experience is just. Is a little bit different than what we experience.
And you're right, I am speaking hyperbolic with some hyperbole that, you know, it's all going to go away. It's not all going to go away because there are locations where it will make sense to do it.
I just think it's a. I bristle at the, you know, the industry can't survive if we don't have it the way it was before. And I think what we're seeing is there's a clear evolution.
Maybe we don't know where it ends up that is happening and people are still going outside more than they ever have before. So I just want to kind of almost meet it on its own terms and be like, okay, so what does this actually mean? Where are things being sold?
Where are people actually shopping? And what does that mean for getting more people outside or supporting the people who are already going outside?
Producer Dave
00:28:25.150 - 00:30:10.690
Well, I was just going to say I agree with Owen in that the shop isn't dead. It's changing and we might be in a downward ebb, but it will flow and it will fill the spaces left.
Once we see where the legacy, let's call it the legacy specialty world is kind of falling apart. E Commerce is filling in these new brands. GGG being part of that world. And somewhere there's going to create these spaces.
And I think to your point, it's going to be from people who have not been traditionally A part of the industry ecosystem. Building these spaces, for example, we've lose. We're losing Next Adventure.
I mean, you can't really replace that as a footprint in Portland specifically. But nearby is opening up a new core outdoor shop by a couple from Venezuel, and they're really focusing kind of on the Latino experience in outdoor.
They bring some, you know, heavy, like out wilderness, backcountry, wilderness chops. But it's a small concept piece and it's going to be very much weighted to trying to be more. Inviting more people in. And so that's an example.
Does it replace Next Adventure? No, but it's absolutely the seeds for the next generation to grow and finding that spaces in between.
And maybe they couldn't have done that necessarily if you still had an outside presence right. By some of these folks. And so maybe there is some creative destruction going on.
As much as I hate to see some of these great places and spaces go, I just, I think that there's too much, too much vitality in this industry. And again, what we represent, the idea of going outside to nature is a very strong pull. So I think it's going to bring. Bring us along with it.
Colin True
00:30:11.560 - 00:30:16.600
But where are all the straight white males supposed to shop if that's what the future is? That's what I'm worried about.
Producer Dave
00:30:17.160 - 00:30:19.640
Well, Dicks and Foot Locker emerging.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:19.720 - 00:30:20.080
Okay.
Colin True
00:30:20.080 - 00:30:25.000
There. I feel better. Thank you for reminding me about the Dixon Foot Locker. Got worried for a second there.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:26.440 - 00:30:52.840
Yeah. But I'm certainly not willing just to write off traditional outdoor gear stores.
I think that there's a lot that can be done both from the retailers, but also from the brands to give make sure that those stores are healthy in the future. And so. And we'll get to this in a little bit. But I did start looking at what's.
What are some of the brands and what are some of the things they can do to help those stores.
Colin True
00:30:53.160 - 00:31:54.560
Yeah, listen, I am not obviously, I love gear shops. I'm of the same generation as you guys of like, that's my memory as well. I just some sort of.
You know, again, my reaction to this is, number one, we don't.
We weren't running Summit Hut, so we don't, you know, only they really understand the position they were in and why they were had to stay open or decide to close. There are multiple trends at play going on here, and I think the landscape is changing.
Is there a world where a more traditional gear shop can thrive? I'm sure there is, absolutely. And I want that to happen. Because I agree with you, Owen.
I think there's nothing quite like walking into a shop like that and just that feeling of like, oh my God, all I want to do is go outside and do stuff now. But I also don't think. I also think that that doesn't mean it can't be experienced in other ways.
And probably the trends are moving that way for certain markets specific. And there's the presence of online and all the other ways that you can procure things these days that kind of complicate that.
So I don't know, just be interesting to monitor how this plays out in the coming years.
Producer Dave
00:31:54.640 - 00:31:57.200
How's your Spanish, Colin?
Colin True
00:31:58.800 - 00:31:59.440
Not great.
Producer Dave
00:31:59.760 - 00:32:00.320
Not great?
Colin True
00:32:00.320 - 00:32:00.720
No.
Producer Dave
00:32:00.960 - 00:32:03.200
Loco por la Adventura.
Colin True
00:32:04.000 - 00:32:05.480
Is that the name of the shop in Portland?
Producer Dave
00:32:05.480 - 00:32:15.010
That's the name of the shop. I wanted to give them a. I mean, I mentioned them, but I didn't say their name. Loco. Loco por la Adventura. Base Camp Mountaineering Center.
Colin True
00:32:15.090 - 00:32:15.770
When does it open?
Eoin Comerford
00:32:15.770 - 00:32:16.930
Crazy for adventure.
Producer Dave
00:32:17.250 - 00:32:21.050
That's crazy for adventure. Yeah, they are. They're open now. They're open now.
Colin True
00:32:21.050 - 00:32:25.330
All right, so yeah, you gotta go. You gotta take some pictures, right?
Producer Dave
00:32:25.970 - 00:32:26.770
Absolutely.
Colin True
00:32:26.850 - 00:32:56.610
All right, so let's move on to the next piece of this conversation because we know there's a lot of complexity in running a retail shop or a brand that is evident more than ever in today's outdoor landscape, as evidenced by the conversation we just had.
But let's move from the retail part of it to the brand side because our own consigliere attempted this week to quantify who was out there doing a good job on the brand front.
And this week, Owen created a brand scorecard to see was checking the most boxes when it came to how he views best practices for partnering with retailers. So, Owen, walk us through what you created.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:56.770 - 00:33:48.590
This actually started with the whole Summit Hut thing, right? Because I was thinking about the impact of D2C and brands, all this stuff on outdoor special retailers.
And I started to look at how many brands have email signup discounts and then it became this whole. Basically it blew a whole afternoon. But anyway, let's get into what this snowballed into. So I came up. It's a hundred point scale.
The first thing is email signup. Okay. You get 30 points if your email signup is not a discount. All right, so if there's no discount, that's that, that is 30 points.
And then really if, if it's. If it's 10 point, 10% or under, I'm going to give you a little bit. I'll give you I'll give you 10 points. If it is 15% or under, you get five points.
But if it's like 20% or more, zero points. Okay.
Colin True
00:33:48.670 - 00:33:49.030
Okay.
Eoin Comerford
00:33:49.030 - 00:33:50.910
So that's, that's the discount for if.
Colin True
00:33:50.910 - 00:33:53.630
You start shopping on their website, you get a discount off of your order.
Eoin Comerford
00:33:53.710 - 00:33:54.840
Exactly. Yes.
Colin True
00:33:54.840 - 00:33:55.320
Okay.
Eoin Comerford
00:33:55.320 - 00:35:38.720
Right. The second thing was, is your main message a sale message, like on your homepage? The first thing you see is that, is that a sale message?
Now, in fairness, I did this the Thursday before Labor Day, so it is kind of a salesy period. So whatever. But even with that though, 64% of the brands I looked at didn't have one. Interesting. So it is possible to not have a sale message.
And if you didn't, you got 20 points. The next thing I looked at was the top navigation on the site.
So the persistent navigation, if you have a persistent sales section always there at the top of the page, you get zero points if you don't have one. If you avoid that, you get 10 points. Okay, so this is all about sort of the whole discount orientation of the site. That's the first thing.
The second thing we looked at was to what degree are you supporting your retailers by suggesting that they are a place that you could buy the brand? The main thing is on the product page, the PDP. Right.
Because if you get 30 points on the product page, like below the add to cart, you're saying, and this is available in these actual stores right near you. And there were actually three of the 25 brands that did that. So you get 30 points for that.
You get 20 points if you didn't actually call it the brand. But there's like a link that says buy it locally or find a store near you right on the product page just below the add to cart button.
So that was worth 20 points.
And then if you had a dealer locator up in the top navigation, again, so prominently up there at the top of the page, not buried at the bottom, at the top of every page, you get 10 points for that. So all of that adds up to 100 points. And then I just, I did like 25 total brands.
Colin True
00:35:38.800 - 00:35:45.120
So who are the top brands like and who could stand and maybe, you know, take a little look in the mirror and reevaluate their priorities in life?
Eoin Comerford
00:35:46.000 - 00:36:29.410
Well, so there were two brands had the a perfect 100 point score, although one of them has an asterisk. So Oboz, our own sponsor, Oboz, love hiking oboes. That same oboes, 100 points, perfect score. Brooks also get 100 points.
But a bit of an asterisk because they do offer a discount for their email, but only on their apparel, which isn't really their core stuff. So I'm like, okay, so they get 100 points with an asterisk.
But then the other folks that were in what I call tier one, so 75 to 100, Nemo equipment, obviously. Big friend of the pod, Rab. Another friend of the pod, by the way. I didn't have them on the initial list and then they bugged me.
So I figured out their score.
Colin True
00:36:29.810 - 00:36:30.530
What about us?
Eoin Comerford
00:36:30.930 - 00:36:42.370
Nice job. Yeti is up there. And then not a friend of the pod. No, unfortunately. And then Solomon, which is absolutely, totally a friend of the pod.
Colin True
00:36:42.690 - 00:36:44.530
Massive friend of the pod Solomon.
Producer Dave
00:36:44.930 - 00:36:46.370
That brand I've never heard of.
Colin True
00:36:46.450 - 00:36:49.330
We love them so much. We talk about them all the time.
Eoin Comerford
00:36:49.970 - 00:36:53.070
The reality is we probably do just because of the one time we.
Colin True
00:36:53.070 - 00:36:53.870
Sure we do.
Eoin Comerford
00:36:54.110 - 00:37:13.070
So. Right, right. They were the, they were the tier one and then sort of tier two, sort of the 50 to 75.
And this is in, in order of, of of decreasing score. So arc' Teryx on Big Agnes Xed Cool Osprey, smartwool, Fjall Raven and Patagonia.
Colin True
00:37:13.070 - 00:37:15.710
And actually Patagonia, some heavy hitters in tier two.
Eoin Comerford
00:37:15.710 - 00:38:15.100
In tier two and Patagonia was kind of right there at the 50 point level. They used to be like top of the like one. I was, I've watched Patty Gunny over the years.
They now have a discount, email sign up discount which they didn't used to have and they dropped their retailer locator from their product page within the last 12 months. So that's okay. Shame. Yes.
But the thing that really occurred to me though as I looked at most of these brands in these top tiers is, you know, these are, these top scoring brands are some of the healthiest brands that are out there right now in terms of growth, et cetera. Right.
And so I guess the question you ask yourself is are they healthy because they do all these things or is it because they have healthy sales and demand that they can afford to do these things? They don't have to discount. They can afford to support the retailers because they're healthy or vice versa.
So yeah, a bit of a chicken or an egg kind of scenario.
Colin True
00:38:15.490 - 00:38:19.290
Honestly, that plays in a little the conversation we were just having coming off the Summit Hut news.
Eoin Comerford
00:38:19.290 - 00:38:19.450
Right.
Colin True
00:38:19.450 - 00:39:00.190
It's like that's kind of. And Dana, or again whoever wrote it alludes to it and the reasons why they're closing of like these market forces are chaotic if not anything else.
Right.
And so the idea of like, this is also who you're up against and what they're doing, and then the power that these folks have in terms of the money they have in their pockets to spend versus an independent retailer.
And when I say, like, you know, hey, the, the era of the gear shop maybe being over, it's not to say that the era of the specialty outdoor retailer is over. It is to say, like, I see why the special is going where it's going, right?
The assortment and the inventory and things that you have to have to be a true traditional gear shop.
It's gonna, it gets hard, especially if you don't have like a big national park or something next door for people to constantly be coming in to use that stuff for.
Eoin Comerford
00:39:00.430 - 00:39:32.330
Obviously it would help if, you know, when somebody does go onto whatever the site is, let's say Osprey is a great example. You go on the Osprey site, no discount, right? For, for the, for signing up for their email.
And, you know, when you do all that research and you figure out which of, you know, I don't know, expedition packs are the right ones for you, and you get onto that product display page, there's a link right there that says find it locally. Okay, Right, right. That is what we need if you're going to support gear stores long term.
Colin True
00:39:32.650 - 00:39:35.690
All right, so do we want to talk about the third tier?
Eoin Comerford
00:39:36.170 - 00:39:48.570
Well, let's skip the third tier and let's just go to the fourth tier, which is the lowest tier. So this is 0 to 24 giving a tier. Well, just because, you know, they're kind of in the middle. I mean, they're whatever.
Colin True
00:39:48.890 - 00:39:51.630
All right, all right, that's fair. Let's go to the bot bottom. Let's do it.
Eoin Comerford
00:39:51.630 - 00:40:36.850
Yeah. And so tier four again, from high to low, but high being 20 points.
We've got Cotopaxi, Friend of the Pod, Helly Hansen, obviously the new Contour brands, Keen, Columbia, Kelty, Marmot and Prana. So I think you can see it's sort of the opposite of the other side of that scale in terms of brands that are maybe not doing so well.
So again, are they not doing well because they're, they're not doing these things, or are they doing these things because they feel the heat? They need to, you know, cut off any sales to, to their, to their retail partners. They need to.
I mean, all of these folks had discounts of anywhere from 10 to 20% off.
Colin True
00:40:36.850 - 00:40:43.250
So, Dave, are you worried bummed that we didn't see this before we talked to Matt Sutton at Columbia.
Producer Dave
00:40:44.370 - 00:41:36.710
Well, we're gonna, we're gonna definitely separate church and state on our conversation about the. Yes, yes, but look, I mean, to that point, is it not doing well? It's also, you've got a lot of direct first kind of mindsets here.
You've got some, you know, they've.
All of these brands tend to be much more inward focused and so, you know, maybe you'd think they'd be a little more sensitive to the needs of a retailer seeing that they run their own retail and would know that.
I also find it interesting that some of the, you know, if you're doing all things right in the retail space, yet your brand isn't growing like you want it to, maybe it's not your retail space, maybe it's not even your product, maybe it's your brand, maybe it's some other things that you're not taking a look at in the same way. So this does kind of reveal some, I don't know, opportunity areas to assess from.
Eoin Comerford
00:41:37.350 - 00:42:34.410
What I would tell you is that I think a lot of what I put out here is not news to most retailers. If you ask the west sounds of the world, which side of this group are they buying from? It's definitely the people at the top of the, of the list.
Right. Because they're supporting them. They're supporting and they're driving full margin sales. So it is a virtuous cycle, I think at the top of this list.
So one thing I did want to point out as a correction here, that actually versus the version that went out on LinkedIn, Mountain Hardware actually was initially in this Tier 4 group and friend of the prod, Troy Saicott reached out and corrected me that actually they do have a link on their product page to their dealers and so that bumped them up into tier three. So just so that we're all clear that. Yes, good call. Yes.
Colin True
00:42:35.130 - 00:43:00.550
I tell you what, this is interesting about this.
And again, just back and all this stuff can get tied back to all of our conversations around core versus casual and the way even the Columbia ad reaction and there's so much vibe and emotion tied into so many opinions on the show included Right. In the outdoor industry. And what I did love about this, Owen, is that I loved having a metric to go off of.
Eoin Comerford
00:43:00.550 - 00:43:00.830
Sure.
Colin True
00:43:00.830 - 00:44:10.050
Right. All of that was a saying about, well, maybe why would a gear shop stock certain things or whatever. And it's like, well, did anybody. It's all feel.
It's like, well, this brand kind of does well and Everything.
But it's like, hold on, let's put some numbers to this and show you why perhaps that something's either a little bit more challenging or what are the broader market forces that are happening that are leading to the results you're getting or not getting in your shop with these particular brands. How does this apply to your assortment?
Because your point about like a Wes or somebody like them, if they're in that top tier, you know, maybe they're not having some of the same issues as some of the other brands who are a little bit heavier on brands at the bottom tier.
And it may sound like a small thing, but to your point, like people are, we're learning this with, again with talking to Lloyd at GGG and with all the other brands that we have a chance to talk to because of our podcast and you start to understand the landscape of outdoor brands and outdoor adjacent brands is much larger than you may think. And the business that's happening on the direct side is much larger than you might think.
And that will trickle down to these folks who are incredibly important to our industry on the retail side. And they might not even have any purview of like, why it's even happening, you know.
So, like doing this is actually, it's fun, but it's also, I think, really important.
Eoin Comerford
00:44:10.610 - 00:45:24.290
Yeah, it does. Lots of people are asking me about adding other brands to the list.
And yeah, this is definitely not meant to be exhaustive, but more illustrative of, hey, these are some of the things that really matter in terms of what drive business for a retailer or full price business for a retailer. These are things that really matter.
And so it's pretty straightforward for people to come up with their own score and to say, okay, should I be on sale or should I not? I think it would be cool to revisit this. Maybe not during a sale season, to be fair to all the brands.
Maybe during peak season, peak fall season, peak spring season and see, see where they are, see where we come out. Also track these things over time.
Like I'm saying with Patagonia, for example, actually going backwards as they remove dealer links from their homepages just to keep track on where the vibes are going. Or like Viori, for example. I thought Viori would be top of the list. Top of the list, not.
So no links to the dealers on the PDP, but more surprisingly, a 20% discount for email signup, which isn't. I don't think that's how they used to be, which tells me what's going on with Vuori.
Producer Dave
00:45:26.450 - 00:45:52.500
Is it what's going on with your Fiori or is it again just another one of those indicators of the influence that performance marketing still has on this. And so that's such. You get that over and over and over.
And so you've got this pull between the wholesale side, the brand people and this performance piece. And 20% is infuriating. If I'm both in a brand or a sales perspective and for I would argue for a brand like Riori, is it even really necessary?
Eoin Comerford
00:45:52.900 - 00:45:53.180
Right.
Producer Dave
00:45:53.180 - 00:46:09.700
Are you really attracting that much more first time consumer because of the 20? No, they're there because they want the brand or they felt the product in store and how soft it is. Like, it's like be confident in that. Right.
Continue, continue to lead versus like have to grovel.
Eoin Comerford
00:46:09.860 - 00:46:26.990
So that's become so endemic just in terms of like almost any DTC brand. The expectation when you land on the site is here's at least 15% off for signing up for email.
And it does, I think beg the question, okay, we're acquiring that customer, but we're acquiring them with a discount right off the bat. Is that the right way to go?
Colin True
00:46:27.550 - 00:47:00.760
Well, guys, that's the show for today. No parting shot today. We went along with everything else. And so we do want your emails. Send them in. Retailers, send it in.
We'd love to hear what you think about Summit Hut. What do you think about the state of the world? What do you think about Owens metrics and the brands that you work with?
Send your feedback to myrockfightmail.com the Rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight LLC. Today's episode is produced by producer Dave Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert for Owen Comerford. I'm Colin True.
Thank you for listening and here to take us out, it's Chris Da Makes with the Rock Fight Fight song. And we'll see you next time. Rock Fighters.
Producer Dave
00:47:00.920 - 00:47:01.480
Yay.
Chris DeMakes
00:47:01.720 - 00:48:02.870
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