Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Colin & Producer Dave offer their thoughts on their time at last weeks edition of The Running Event/Switchback.
Then Eoin Comerford makes his debut as a weekly regular on THE ROCK FIGHT!
Eoin will be appearing each Monday on the show to offer his unique insights into what is happening in the outdoor industry. This week Eoin looks at a positive report to come out of REI, Arc'teryx's dominance in China, and offers his reaction to the BEA's Economic Impact Report that arrived last week showing the outdoor recreation economy has grown to $1.2 trillion.
Finally Colin & Producer Dave offer their Parting Shots where Colin praises the upcoming Women Led Wednesday while Producer Dave talks about the folks at Native Women Running.
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Episode Transcript
Colin True
00:00:00.520 - 00:02:22.263
Hey, you outdoor retailers, listen up. You're sick of it, aren't you? Another sales rep walks in.
They're showing off some flimsy forgettable apparel line that looks like it was meant for a mall. The so called outdoor brands churning out gear that won't make it past the doors of a Costco come Saturday. You need something else.
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They make gear that's simple, light, strong, and made to last. Hey, and where do you think they make it? You know where it is. It's right here in the usa.
If you're thinking, wait a minute, Northwest Alpine's black spider hoodie, made with Polartech power grid, is sewn up right here in the States. Yeah, you heard that right. And if you're tired of black, don't worry, they've got colors too. So here we are in a time when everything's uncertain.
Costs are going up, tariffs are looming, and old bloated brands are hiking prices. Northwest Alpines here with American made gear ready to stock your shelves.
Get in touch by sending an email to infooortorthwestalpine.com and set up a line showing today, Northwest Alpine made here for all the right reasons. Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True. It's Monday and today we're going to break down what went down in Texas last week. That's right.
Today we're talking about the running event and switchback. But even more exciting is today we're debuting a new weekly segment with one of the leading voices in the outdoor industry.
Owen Comerford is joining the Rock Fight.
And starting today, you'll be able to hear his insights on news coming out of the industry each and every Monday as Owen joins producer Dave and I to break things down. But before we get to all of that, have you subscribed to Rock Fight's weekly newsletter now coming out on Tuesday.
So if you haven't gotten it yet, you're gonna get it now. Cause you're gonna go subscribe to it by going to rockfight. Co clicking Join the mailing list and you'll get it tomorrow.
So make sure you sign up for that.
Also, if you're new around here, we'd love for you to subscribe and join the Rock Fight by lobbing a stone at the follow button on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on. Give us that five star rating, guys. We need you to follow the show. It really helps us out. And speaking of the show, let's start it up. Let's go.
Chris DeMakes
00:02:22.319 - 00:02:26.315
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:02:27.455 - 00:07:48.031
All right, this past week was the Running event in Switchback in Austin, Texas, which was kind of exciting given how much we've talked about Switchback spinning off into its own event next year.
And I think for a lot of folks and myself included, this edition of TRE felt as much like a pregame for Switchback as it did the Running Industry Singular National Trade show.
Now, I didn't see the actual trade show component of the running event and I'll get into that in a few minutes, but producer Dave and I spent a full day on the show floor. Well, producer Dave spent a full day on the show floor, I should say. So we'll dig into that part of the event in a minute with him.
But before we get to that day, one of the Running Event.
The running event featured a lineup of panels and talks that has been the hallmark of this event since it was founded, and we got to go to some of those. The Running event has never been just a bunch of exhibiting brands.
There has always been a retailer centric education component to the event, and running retail has always been the heart of this show. Every year the running event holds an awards show that showcases the best of Run Specialty and this has evolved over the years.
I remember when I first went to the show over a decade ago now, it was sort of controversial that Fleet Feet was going to be included in those awards because they kind of have their own thing. But you know, so as this thing has evolved, it's really now become the central hub of the entire running industry.
But for all the chatter on the outdoor side of things, the Running event is kind of a model for what many talk about the most when it comes to a trade event. It's specialty retailers and brands who value specialty retailers coming together for both commerce and community.
And that works for the most part because this is a running show. People who show up are part of the running world. Even the addition of Outdoor with Switchback was designed with Run Specialty in mind.
As trail running grows, there's a natural crossover at Run Specialty with many outdoor brands, but that expansion doesn't come without risk as I'll get into to in a second.
But by keeping Run as the event's North Star, the Running event has largely maintained an enthusiasm among its constituents and has really become the super bowl of Run Special of the Run specialty calendar. But that's not something that former Rock Fight guest and the Running Event show director Christina Henderson and her team have taken for granted.
There's a lot of goodwill towards the show, but my experience there this year is that they're not resting on their laurels. No, instead they're continuing to push things as hard as they can.
Because my main takeaway from the Running event is that this is a very ambitious event. The sheer volume of stuff that happened there was, I mean, borderline overwhelming.
There was so much to see and do, from trail cleanups and group runs and yoga sessions to the full day of programming before the trade show even kicked off. But that also feeds into the history and the grassroots growth of it all.
Everything felt like it had a purpose, and that purpose fed into the larger goal of continuing to grow this community where there was both ROI for the cost in attending while providing that gathering that we are so often clamoring for and demanding now. All that said, as you grow and evolve, eventually there will be criticism.
However, the biggest complaints I've heard in talking with folks has been around a topic that is pretty familiar with criticism, and that's Switchback and the outdoor of it all. So if I'm a run shop owner, it's hard to be upset with more options.
And if I head to TRE for the trade show component, I would think that it would be interesting to have some outdoor brands to shop. And because this is a run focused event, it's not like the inclusion of Switchback is limiting the attendance of other run brands.
This is an addition to that said, I've had a few different conversations with some brand exhibitors, some folks from some brands who are exhibiting who were optimistic that Switchback getting its own show next year could lead to the Running event returning to be a run only event without the switchback component. Now, I don't share that optimism and a Switchback Spring is even a modest success.
I would expect Switchback, the switchback component of tre, to grow, not shrink.
But if this is Switchback Spring pregame, let's look ahead to next June because this was an impressive event and it makes me feel like those who put this on are ready for the big time. And I'll admit I'm excited to see what Switchback Spring is going to look like.
Watching the Running event unfold was like seeing a hot prospect in triple A who can play any position, is hitting like 410 with 22 dingers in April, and is just waiting for that call to the big leagues. The opening night party and reception put on by Hoka was something straight out of, like, 2006 outdoor retailer. I mean, that kind of thing.
That is not really what I'm looking for anymore.
But at one point, while sipping a beer and watching some crazy video being projected on a giant plastic shoe, I leaned over to producer Dave and said, this is absolutely the type of party we would have gone to at or at some point that would have kicked off a night where we would have ended up blackout drunk in some weird local bar. So I am excited to see what happened to Switchback Spring.
My only word of caution to Christina and her team is don't expect a one for one translation of the running event to a standalone outdoor event. Because, you know, outdoor events, I think, are so divisive because they're an assembly of the different factions of the outdoor community.
I mean, sure, there is crossover between climbers and skiers, backpackers, day hikers, mountain bikers, paddlers, but they all have their own agenda.
So an outdoor show has a tougher challenge when it comes to making everyone happy than an event like Tre does, which is, at its core, a running event. So that's kind of my initial thoughts. Let's bring producer Dave in.
I mean, Dave, you got to hang out through the first day of the trade show exhibition hall. Like, you know, what did. What did you think of the running event?
Producer Dave
00:07:48.143 - 00:08:07.319
Well, Colin, you know, that was my first time at the combined effort, so I didn't really know what to expect, what all this meant, you know, And I have to say, a long line and a frenzy to get into the show was not on my bingo card, I have to say.
Colin True
00:08:07.447 - 00:08:09.579
Immediately, you thought it'd be more milling.
Producer Dave
00:08:09.627 - 00:08:32.371
In, like, slow down, you know, trade show. But no, there was a line two, 300 people deep at, you know, 20 minutes before the show opened, which was crazy.
And then when it opened, you know, just people flooded in. They were literally running to the running event through the door as the doors opened.
Colin True
00:08:32.483 - 00:08:34.459
And I think it was required. That's why.
Producer Dave
00:08:34.547 - 00:08:36.055
Well, you know, I'm.
Colin True
00:08:36.155 - 00:08:38.255
If you were walking, they like, I'm sorry, you have to leave.
Producer Dave
00:08:38.295 - 00:08:40.595
Crack spikes are made for a reason, Colin.
Colin True
00:08:41.375 - 00:08:45.143
They ruined the. That's why they need a new convention center in Austin as they ruined the dead.
Producer Dave
00:08:45.199 - 00:10:49.727
They did. So that was pretty. That was. I got to say, to start things off, that was pretty something else. And, and I can see why.
Look, like you said, there was some old school or vibes. You had vertical booths. There's a lot of color, a lot of swag, which is, you know, a tre thing. But it just, there was an energy.
You could see people were genuinely happy to be there. Lots of retail badges that I saw. So this wasn't just, you know, booth personnel kind of littering the hallways. Definitely people.
People walking around with big bags of stuff. I mean again, this is the tre thing. So. Yeah. So overall I thought that was great.
I thought the switchback piece, like you said, this is, you know, switchback is not running changing to outdoor. It's running, embracing or having offering from outdoors. So this is still a running based event.
And so even the brands that you know, show up are still going to be more of the apparel and footwear side. That's not very little gear unless you count nutrition supplements gear or some kind of vest to hold all of your stuff like that.
But yeah, I think it what to me, it tells me that look, these clearly go together.
Like there's just, you know, we've talked about the, you know, the trend in retail in terms of the fusion more trade ending up in run specialty and you know, obviously run specialty, you know, brands moving out into the lifestyle world. You know, look, every other category has converged. I mean look at action sports. You know, went from individual sports into the idea of action.
Outdoor becomes outside. Why is it any kind of surprise or kind of running an outdoor would be merging meeting together at trail. I just, it just totally makes sense.
So to me, I thought that was great. I think this is the future for sure.
And yeah, I'm excited to see what happens to the outdoor side of this equation as it does spin off to become its own own piece again. But certainly a great, a great footprint to start from.
Colin True
00:10:49.871 - 00:11:56.065
What did you think of the day one programming piece of it? Because that's the one thing I didn't really talk about my openings. I want to talk about it with you.
There were some really good panels that I sat in. I really liked what people had to say.
But I also liken this back to a little bit of what I said when we left the outdoor media summit is I don't always, not that I don't always know. I know that there are a lot of times I leave these things and there's not a lot of tangible action items. Right.
I feel like if I'm going to go spend an hour in a room with experts who are there presenting something, you know, I'd like to know, like, oh, why did I, why did I go to this? What's the call to action? Like, here's, here's how you can do what we just described.
And there was a couple that I went to that were, that were good, they were well done, they told some interesting stories, but it was more just like, hey, I did this thing. Isn't it great? And we're like, yeah, that's great. And then you kind of moved on with your day. So.
And it seems like whether, I know OIA had their Catalyst show last week. We didn't get to go that obviously because we were in Texas.
But between that, you know, there's the summit and that the outside festival is trying to do again. Outdoor media summit. You know, any one of these kinds of things where you're sitting in a room listening to a panel of people.
Why is it so hard to get, you know, to have clear takeaways from, like why you spent money to sit in the room and listen to these people?
Producer Dave
00:11:56.525 - 00:12:00.185
That's because none of us know what we're doing, Colin. We're all making it up.
Colin True
00:12:01.245 - 00:12:02.693
It kind of feels like that though.
Producer Dave
00:12:02.709 - 00:12:28.313
It does. Well, look, you've got also too, you want the macro, right? We all live in our kind of micro, especially at the retail level. Right.
You're just trying to get your stuff sold through. You're trying to balance your inventory. You're just trying to make that get your customer through the door.
Here's a chance to actually sit back and maybe see some of these more macro or concepts and talk about that, which you don't always get the time to do. So that's going to be a little less action oriented just in that basis.
Colin True
00:12:28.489 - 00:12:28.801
Right.
Producer Dave
00:12:28.833 - 00:13:23.479
When you start talking about that. But you're right also to the opportunity. Can we get even more micro, almost classroom kind of lab type. You know, I would love to have a.
I would love to have a class on building the perfect planogram. Right. You know, can, can we get into the weeds of some of this retail science if you will really just really drill down with experts.
And I don't know what's out there for that, but it just seems like that's an opportunity too. Like when we talk about social media. Here's some generals. No, no, here's some actually spending plans that you can, if you have.
How would I put that if I have $500? What am I trying, you know, get very specific because I do think there's a lot of, well, of course everyone wants to do their own thing.
I think there's a lot of overlap when it comes to these type of footprints of these types of shops that are transferable to region for sure. And some do it really well.
Colin True
00:13:23.567 - 00:13:41.171
The best one that we saw was the OIA's tariff conversation and it felt like it wasn't like there was like here's the list of takeaways.
But it felt very much leaving there, like, oh, I could see how a retailer or a brand or whoever was sitting in that room could like learn from that and then go make plans for how they're going to deal with these things that are coming down the road again.
Producer Dave
00:13:41.203 - 00:13:58.291
And that's a perfect example though of kind of the macroeconomic scene that you get to talk to and you don't always, always have the time for. My favorite session was the Taco House a couple blocks away. Their, their, their carnitas was fantastic. I considered that.
Colin True
00:13:58.323 - 00:14:09.655
Well, what I, I guess what are you, what you, you. So I didn't get to go to the, to the day to, to the actual show. So what, what were some of your key takeaways from what you gave us some high.
But like what. Take us through. What, what did you see? What, what, what did you like?
Producer Dave
00:14:09.735 - 00:14:50.637
Colin, I think you, we've kind of mentioned it at first but you can't, you can't ignore the energy that this event brings. And there's definitely, we talk about the pent up kind of desire to have gathering places. I think that the addition of outdoor adds a piece of that.
For sure. You can see where it's going. More options for retailers makes more sense.
And so I thought that was just a number one, really great, great enthusiasm to see. Hopefully that translates to the numbers. You know, secondly, I will say outdoor. I don't know if everybody got it.
I think sometimes we're missing the point here a little bit. It is a small section of the show and it is like you said.
Colin True
00:14:50.661 - 00:14:52.237
Do you mean the brands or do you mean the retailers?
Producer Dave
00:14:52.301 - 00:16:05.925
The brands, you know, the exhibiting brands. Exhibiting brands. Thank you.
Look, it's not that you need to go in and have the biggest booth or the most technology and compete with the large running brands. But you got to try. And it really felt like some brands there were just there, they can say they showed up.
The sales folks said, yep, I filed my T and E report. But did you really do anything? Not much. Did you make an impact? No. And not everyone, not everyone played by that. I will say like Meryl and Teva.
Kind of the usual suspects in that. They showed up, looked like they were trying. I'm going to specifically shout out to Vivo Barefoot Wear.
They didn't have a huge booth, but what they did with what they had was excellent, excellent presentation, immersive, beautiful, like, well done. So I just, I think that's part of that. The brands have to, they gotta try.
If we want to have energy and gathering and kind of make a place that's got some stoke to it, they're the ones that are going to have to, to bring it. Right. It's, it's that chicken and the egg, right? You're waiting for the retailers to try, try again, right?
Let's lean into this and make a space where people then talk about, wow, that was really cool. Let's go.
Colin True
00:16:06.625 - 00:17:05.673
So back on the outdoor side of it, I mean, I do feel like that's the approach for the brands and again, I wasn't there, but. So I'm curious your purview.
This doesn't surprise me to hear you say what you said because I think there's a very prescriptive way that a lot of outdoor brands will show up to a show and it's like, oh, it's a trade show.
I'll roll in with my backdrop into my 10 by 10 booth and have a table and sit there with a couple of shoes out and someone will want to come and talk to me.
As opposed to the mindset of I'm an outdoor brand entering the running show, how do I want to make myself appeal to the running buyers that are at the show? And some of that is probably just the complacency that we've gotten to with these outdoor events.
Even though we haven't had them as consistently as we've had them over the last four or five years, that's just kind of how you would show up and kind of back into that. Even during the heyday of Outdoor Retailer, people would just kind of show up like, ah, we're supposed to be here.
You know, I don't know what we're going to do. We're just going to be at Outdoor Retailer. And it kind of feels like that's what the outdoor scene was in switchback for a lot of brands.
Is that fair?
Producer Dave
00:17:05.729 - 00:18:02.157
Yeah, for sure. I definitely felt that.
And look, money and size isn't really the only indicator of creating an interesting space and having an interesting conversation.
I mean, the, again, going back to kind of the edible aspect of this, there's a cherry bund, you know, they've got this kind of Cherry tart energy supplement type thing that they're selling in drink and which is a very niche, of course. But, you know, they all got. They came in kind of the matching track suits, you know, bringing a little swagger to it.
And they've got a little 10 by 10, but come on, like, good for them, you know, because you walk by and you can't. You can't help but. You can't help but look, just a little bit of creativity goes a long way in these spaces.
And it also, I think, communicates to the retailer that of your enthusiasm, like, do you even believe in your product enough to, you know, to kind of gear up for a show a couple times a year? Because if you don't, why should I? Right? Yeah, yeah.
Colin True
00:18:02.221 - 00:18:19.045
No, and this is how things happen, by the way. I'm not being overly critical. Right. I mean, what did you say in your open? The amount of retail badges you saw that were coming into the show.
This is an event that has been. We go back to outdoor retail. Like, oh, no one writes, orders those things back in again, the heyday of it.
It's like, no, people show up to the retailers, show up to the running event.
Producer Dave
00:18:19.085 - 00:18:19.445
Yeah.
Colin True
00:18:19.525 - 00:18:44.255
So you kind of miss the memo if you think you're just going to roll in. And I worry about the brands who just sent in, like a sales manager or a sales rep for the.
To switch back to the outdoor side, who then sat on their phone for two days, barely talked to anybody. And then when they kind of submit their report back, like, yeah, it was okay. We didn't really talk to them. No matter if people were interested.
I don't really know if this is for us next year, you know, that kind of thing. And they didn't really even make an attempt to engage with the amount of retailers who were probably in the building with them.
Producer Dave
00:18:44.295 - 00:18:46.635
No, not at all. That's a really good point.
Colin True
00:18:48.615 - 00:19:10.345
In the meantime, it's time. Right now, though, it's time for our weekly segment to make sure you're getting more out of the outdoors. It's time for more with Thurmond.
So have you been paying attention to the weather here in the United States this week? It's getting kind of wintry out there.
Dave knows he had to fly back in some wintry weather last week from Texas, and it, it didn't go real well for him.
Producer Dave
00:19:10.505 - 00:19:11.925
White knuckles, Colin.
Colin True
00:19:12.985 - 00:20:51.727
It's everywhere. The Pittsburgh Steelers and the Cleveland Browns played inside a snow globe last Thursday night. It was raw, cold and wet.
And as we approach the Thanksgiving holiday, looks like that trend is going to continue on both coasts.
And if you're about to find yourself at a place where you could use some help staying warm, sometimes the best thing is to have just a classic puffy jacket. A puffy jacket like Carbon's Quest 2 that is powered with Thermore's Evodown. And Evodown is the performance insulation.
It's made from 100% recycled fibers from post consumer plastic bottles and designed for activities where you need warmth and breathability. Thermore's Evo down is found inside of Carbon's Quest 2 and is the solution you need this upcoming season. I mean, think about it.
Not only are you gonna be going, you know, outside to keep your, you know, keep your sanity through the holiday seasons, but you're also gonna be party hopping. You'll be going in and out of houses, offices and restaurants. You'll need some versatility in your life.
And you can find that versatility in the Carbon Quest 2 powered by Thermore's Evodown. So find the Carbon Quest 2 by head heading to carbon. That's carbon with a K dot com.
And learn about Thermore by heading to thermore.com because whether it's making amazing new garments or staying warm and safe out on the trail, you can do more with Thermore. Let's get into this week's chat with our outdoor industry insider and consigliere, Owen Comerford.
All right, everyone, Owen Comerford is back on the Rock Fight.
And we're actually pretty excited to announce that this is going to become a regular thing with Owen joining us every Monday to provide additional insight into what is happening in the outdoor industry. We're going to need to come up with a segment name. Guys. I don't know if it's like Cumberford's Corner, if you go back to the outdoor consigliere.
Like, we need to come up.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:51.751 - 00:20:54.183
We need to workshop that something. Yeah.
Colin True
00:20:54.319 - 00:20:58.143
We're excited to have you here, though. Thanks for joining the. Thanks for joining the Rock Fight. Like joining the Rock.
Producer Dave
00:20:58.199 - 00:20:58.895
Yes, welcome.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:58.975 - 00:21:05.555
Joining, like, yeah. I mean, on the whole Consigliere vibe, it's like, I'm joining the Rock Fight mafia.
Producer Dave
00:21:05.975 - 00:21:06.815
I like that.
Colin True
00:21:06.935 - 00:21:07.519
I like that.
Producer Dave
00:21:07.567 - 00:21:19.965
Not only do we win kill somebody to join this company, do I. We don't do that. No. We just create bruises. That's really all we're doing. It's a rock fight, you know? Yeah, yeah. Right. Okay.
Colin True
00:21:20.045 - 00:21:30.549
Just to kind of set the table for the listeners though, you know, Owen, like, you know, what do you why did you want to join the show? And you know, what can our listeners expect to hear? What can people expect to get from you appearing on the show?
Eoin Comerford
00:21:30.637 - 00:22:31.935
You know, if I don't know if your listeners have followed me at all on LinkedIn, if they haven't, they should, I guess this year where they sort of came out of LinkedIn hibernation because, you know, I've spent the better part of seven years under, you know, the careful watch of corporate comms, people at Walmart and exporting goods and heaven forbid, you know, you would say anything, you know, even close to controversial, let alone anything period on LinkedIn.
So, you know, as I moved out of that role, I really had a chance to Talk more on LinkedIn and it just started fairly organically and just giving some thoughts and got some good feedback.
And I realized part of that success was filling a vacuum, a similar vacuum, I think, to the one you've seen, which is the lack of really, I would say, analytical reporting on the outdoor industry. There's sort of glad handing and PR hand waving and all that sort of stuff that goes on regularly within our industry.
Producer Dave
00:22:32.235 - 00:23:12.167
Press releasing.
Press releasing, exactly. Not reporting, press releasing. So yeah, so I think it was a reaction to that.
And then, you know, as we've, as I've been on the show a few times, I think we're of like mind in a lot of ways, but not everything, which I think will be good too because we can kind of hash it out a little bit on various topics.
But yeah, it was just another way to chat and to hopefully have another place for our industry, our somewhat fractured industry to maybe, you know, come together and have a, you know, have a, have something to listen to and maybe talk about and comment on and, and yeah, all those good things.
Colin True
00:23:12.271 - 00:23:17.807
Well, we're going to hand the keys of the car to you and let's hear what you got. What are the things you want to talk about today? What are we starting with?
Producer Dave
00:23:17.911 - 00:27:17.365
So, you know, in classic press releasing fashion, there was a press release, I think it was last week from REI about their new Chief Marketing officer.
Interesting in and of itself, but buried in this release was actually a change in tone, I would say from rei, and I'm quoting here from the the Wall Street Journal, but they said Ernst said we're now seeing the market return to an equilibrium that REI is well positioned to meet.
And additionally they said a spokeswoman for rei, which doesn't publish mid year financials, said the company has met its projected profit through July.
So that sounds a lot Better than what was going on in January when they were laying off over 350 people and expecting conditions to remain very challenging throughout 2024, quote, unquote. So sounds like a bit of a turnaround.
And indeed, in talking to various brands and folks in my network, there is a thawing of Open Dubai happening at REI somewhat in spring of next year and actually quite a bit in fall.
And that open Dubai was impacted by all the supply chain stuff and overbuying with private brand and everything else that has been cover kind of ad nauseam. But I think this is good news. This is good news for the industry that REI is back out there buying stuff.
Let me jump into that. You talk about the turnaround piece of this and definitely doom and gloom.
How much is that of them trying to dress up essentially mass layoffs with some kind of reason to be. Things are awful, horrible.
So therefore this justifies that when really it's those actions that then dress up the spreadsheet numbers that we then see today.
Yeah, there's always a little bit of that, I would say, going on. Some of it is just the passage of time and sell through of inventory. Right. And so, you know, so part of it is that too.
So, you know, has demand rebounded necessarily or have they just actually moved through this inventory glut?
Because if you look at their financials from last year, we get this one time of year, it's like analyst Christmas in April when we get one time a year to see what's going on in REI's financials. And the major hit was margins. Right. Last year, that's what killed the profitability by a huge chunk.
So even if they just got the inventory to a better place and at the same time then were able to cut the discounting that was going on, that's really going to help. And then, yes, it does give air cover maybe to address some labor issues within the company.
But I think now they're starting to see that that really free up. I got you.
But the interesting thing is that, you know, if that were just a sort of an isolated commentary last week, it would be one thing. But the vibes coming out of Goa show in Kansas City were actually also rather good.
The Daily reported that outdoor brands and retailers are cautiously optimistic, which is new for us, at least for the last couple of years. So opposed to cautiously pessimistic, which is.
Normal or ridiculously pessimistic? Yes. So, yes, constantly griping maybe, but no, I think so. It sounds good. I'm hearing actually some other brands that are getting at once orders.
So, you know, some. Some of their retail partners had really cut back on preseasons and are starting to get in, get into some at once orders.
So maybe there, maybe there is a thaw. Maybe we actually will see, because I was thinking it'd be middle of next year, but maybe it's a little earlier than that.
Colin True
00:27:17.825 - 00:28:07.615
Cool. Is it fair to say that the REI problems that we talk about a lot and we've, We've.
I think the three of us have talked about at some point in some of your previous appearances on the Rock fight, Right.
That are just mostly like us problems, you know, I think most of the problems, it seems like rei's face have been similar to what everybody else has been facing over the last couple of years. And we don't like some of the maybe management moves that they're making and kind of how we perceive the REI brand.
But really, if you play this out, maybe they're not exactly what we want them to be, but they're not going anywhere. Right. I mean, I gotta imagine in a few years, like, you know, they're probably, you know, if the industry's doing well, they'll be doing well.
Like, and it just.
We'll probably still be complaining about something else when it comes to rei, you know, is this really more of a perception problem than really an REI problem, or is there a chance with a lot of these, some of moves they've made over the last couple of years? Is there any real risk, I guess, to REI in the future from your lens?
Producer Dave
00:28:07.695 - 00:29:52.893
I think so. I mean, REI is in such a strong market position, 20, whatever it is, 4 million members. Right. I think REI is going to be fine, quite frankly.
I mean, they're the dominant player. They've got the dominant retail footprint. They can really call the shots they want to call with the brands.
You know, I think actually given their strength in the market, they don't pull that lever maybe as much as some might in that situation. So they're, you know, to a degree, maybe to their detriment at times, they've been the kinder, gentler, you know, giant of the industry.
But REI is going to be what it's going to be. Right? And, you know, I think that the challenge with our rei, to a degree, I think their biggest challenge is their aging demographic.
And that's the piece that I think their new CMO is really going to have to tackle is, okay, how, you know, how do we get, you know, new people, you know, into the, into the co op, into the membership, how do we really reinvigorate and re energize this brand?
You know, so we, so we're not just sort of a private brand with some, you know, some nice gear that we're really kind of bringing people into the co op because there are lots of very passionate REI customers out there. But I think a lot of them, unfortunately for REI are in their 40s, 50s and 60s. So what about the 20 year olds?
Are they going to shop in specialty retail? It's not like specialty retail has a monopoly on those people either. Or are they shopping elsewhere?
Are they shopping at Dick's Sporting Goods or Uniqlo or whatever?
Colin True
00:29:52.989 - 00:29:58.585
Right, Yeah, I guess that's an industry problem, right? More than it is just an REI problem.
Producer Dave
00:29:59.385 - 00:32:54.705
Well, you know, it kind of, kind of links to another story that was out there about the, you know, the great sales from archeryx. Right.
And you know, if ever there was a brand that is all about, you know, all about the Benjamins at the top and at the top end, right, it's arc'teryx.
This is, this is not the brand that your college, you know, your college senior is wearing, you know, their five or six hundred dollars shells, et cetera. And let me say, I love our jerks. I mean I have my Makai jacket from years ago is still my go to in the winter. Absolutely love it.
But yeah, I mean they were up just big numbers like over 30% on the quarter which is really, really strong when you consider what the rest of our business has been going through. Right. So those are crazy numbers. And I think that was a comp on top of like a 60 something comp the year before.
So like they've doubled in two years basically for this last quarter. So huge numbers, half a billion dollars in sales. I mean, wow. But I think it does talk to.
And this is not just an outdoor industry problem, but the rich keep getting richer and the young keep getting poorer. It's a challenge. But yeah, they're, they're really killing it right now over there. Dr. X, how much of that is China and international versus North America, do you know?
Great point. So a lot of it is China. So, so this is, these are, these numbers are for amer altogether, but plus 56% in China versus plus 7% in the Americas.
It's like wow. And I don't know that most Americans know what arc'teryx is in China. Like in China arc'teryx is like sort of is outdoor luxury. It is the brand.
And you think arc'teryx is expensive in America? Try Buying it in China, it is ridiculous.
You'll actually like a lot of outdoor stores who are in major metros, New York, Louisiana, whatever that sell arc'teryx. They'll report. Yeah, they'll have people coming in from.
Flying in from mainland China with, you know, massive suitcases and wanting to basically buy up the whole store so that they can. Right.
Because it's so. So because ARX is so cheap, quote unquote in America versus versus China. So yeah, it's a different vibe. And also in China it's primarily D2C.
They have I think 60 plus stores in China. So it's a very different, different vibe.
Very, you know, brand forward and obviously owned primarily by a Chinese company, which really helps the overall, you know, it's almost a quasi nationalistic thing because of that.
Colin True
00:32:55.405 - 00:33:50.585
Yeah, Dave and I spoke a little bit about the armored, particularly arteryx probably a couple of months ago now. But it was just the. It is an absolute brand win.
You know, my kind of big picture comment was like, do you even think of arc'teryx as an outdoor brand? The same way you think of the other outdoor brands we typically cover on this show.
And it's because they've kind of from day one, or at least not day one, but mid 2000s, they kind of started separating from the pack and going a different road in terms of much more Lululemon sort of track of how they built their brand versus how a Patagonia or North Face or Marmot or somebody would build has built their brand over the same amount of time. And you know, I don't know if they recognize the opportunity coming in China.
But while everybody else is kind of to the first story you talked about with REI has been over the last few years, like, oh man, things are really rough out there. Arc'teryx is like, hey, we're in China, we're doing all right. So it's, it's been, it's quite the story for sure. Yeah.
Producer Dave
00:33:50.625 - 00:37:24.659
But I think the interesting thing though is that China hasn't been.
The Chinese market hasn't been a panacea for all brands and you know, some have had a really tough go and you know, the market has been pretty slow in coming out of COVID And yes, you've got good, you know, year over year comps there because of the full lockdown a couple of years ago. But not everybody has bounced back to this level. I think, I think that I wouldn't just say, oh, arc'teryx is doing great because of China.
They're doing great, period. And I think they're even outpacing in China as well.
I think one thing I would ask is what does this bode for the rest of the industry? Is this an indicator? I mean premium and luxury have traditionally been more resilient to recession and just as an overall kind of anecdote.
So I think you're talking about it's arc'teryx. Their positioning is what helped them and their ownership has helped them in China before they even got there.
Where other brands have not positioned themselves as a more of a luxury type of item. But now we see is the trend holding that's going to keep that up.
We've seen the luxury sector also decline a bit recently as well, which again is counterintuitive to its usual strength. Strength during kind of economic kind of slumps or downturns. So what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I think certainly arc'teryx's luxury aspects are helpful and at the top end of the market, I mean you look at the Monclers of the world have also done relatively well compared to the rest of the industry. But yes, luxury is starting to wane a little bit I think. But not because the rich are getting any poorer.
I just think they're spending their dollars elsewhere also and I think this is interesting is the question to which fashion plays a role within the outdoor industry. And it's something that we in the industry never want to acknowledge.
You talk to any brand and maybe in quiet backroom conversations they'll acknowledge that there's a fashion aspect to their business. But no, no, no, they're an outdoor brand. They're all about the enthusiast and the mountain climbers and the rock climbers.
But the reality is that fashion plays a big part in the non equipment side of our business. And GQ actually just came out with an article that said RIP GORP core. Now some of you may be wondering what the hell is Gorp core?
Which just the fact that nobody in our industry talks about Gorp Core tells you something, right? Because what Gorp Corp is is actually this idea that outdoorsiness is a trend. Like looking outdoorsy is a trend, right? Named for obviously Gorp.
The sort of trail mix type stuff. And you know, it was everything core, Normcore, Dad Core, Gorp core.
But now what's at least some of those in the know are saying is it's dead, that trend is over. Not that people are going to stop wearing Patagonia fleece and Merrell boots and you know what? But it's not really a trend trend anymore.
And so that tailwind, perhaps that has helped all of us over the last. Call it five, 10, even going back maybe 15 years, maybe that tailwind is dying a little bit.
Colin True
00:37:24.787 - 00:37:38.455
Do people not say. I mean, I kind of just felt like people just started saying Gorp Corp because they got tired of saying athleisure, right?
It's kind of felt like the evolution of, like, the thing we're calling. That's not super technical in the space. Is that really not as an accepted term, you feel like, in the industry?
Producer Dave
00:37:39.025 - 00:39:15.761
No, because. Well, first of all, I think. I think athleisure and gorpcore are different. They're very different trends.
In fact, if anything, athleisure has taken over from gorpcore as the trend. Right? Athleisure is much more of a sleek look, right?
Whereas gorpcore is warm fleeces, puffy jackets, hiking boots, random carabiners hanging off your stuff for no apparent reason. That kind of looks versus flannels. You know, everyone loves a good flannel if you're into Garp core beanies.
Whereas, you know, the athleisure look is much more about sleek and skin tight and that kind of thing.
Yeah, I think all of that's related, for sure. I do think a nuance to gorp core is that if you understand what gorp is, you don't know what gorp core is. Right.
And if you actually have no idea what gorp is, then you understand Gorp core is a fashion trend that brings outdoorsy vibes.
I think what you do see, though, is, is that you see more specialty outdoor retailers actually selling at leisure. And, you know, the. The true kind of true outdoorsy vibe, right? The vor. The vor of the world. The. The true athleisure vibe, right?
Taking over and sort of killing that. That old outdoorsy, you know, look. Because obviously, especially retailers, there's only so much open to buy. There's only so much room on the.
On the floor. And so if we're going to add a viori, if we're going to add an. On running or whatever else, you've got to take something out.
And that something is traditional outdoor.
Colin True
00:39:15.953 - 00:39:19.405
Somebody's adding viori. They just got valued at $5 billion, right?
Producer Dave
00:39:19.865 - 00:39:23.205
5.5. $5.5 billion. Sorry.
Colin True
00:39:24.025 - 00:39:25.057
That point five.
Producer Dave
00:39:25.201 - 00:39:56.191
Just cap this, though, in the sense that this athleisure aspect, this is, though, getting into the breaking down, the gatekeeping aspect of outdoor, right? And this is a generational shift. So we talk about the young, you know, trying to get younger. These are ways to do that. Right. My.
We've always talked about kind of the mountain to bar kind of aspect. We want clothes that can be versatile in doing everything. Now, I don't even want to have to necessarily look outdoor with my mountain to bar.
I just want something that I'm comfortable in. We all know it's going to work, right? We've been talking about that forever. That I don't.
Colin True
00:39:56.223 - 00:39:56.455
Yep.
Producer Dave
00:39:56.495 - 00:40:45.827
That's just not the selling feature now. Now it's just comfort and ease and brands that are, are like viori, that are stepping in to fill.
That could be the new outdoor uniform, frankly, of the next generation.
Yeah. And. But they're not necessarily finding it in outdoor stores, I think is the problem. Right, right, right, right. Yeah.
So, yeah, it's, it'll be interesting to see where it goes. That valuation, by the way. And this is, this is, it's not totally apples, apples to apples, but the F Corp.
Home of The North Face, Smartwool, a bunch of outdoor brands, all of the $4.7 billion is their current market cap. That's insane compared to $5.5 billion for a viewer.
Colin True
00:40:45.971 - 00:41:18.271
Well, last thing we should probably touch on and I just want to tee you up with this week, because all of this we've been talking about kind of goes under the heading of the size of the economic impact of the outdoor industry on the economy. And we got the BEA report released. Their numbers is kind of becoming like an annual tradition. You know, we all get excited in November for what's.
What's the number going to be this year? Turns out we're a $1.2 trillion contribution to the US outdoor economy. Would love to get your, your thoughts on the.
Is it just another report and like, hey, it's slightly bigger than the last report, or is there anything that's interesting in this report from your perspective?
Producer Dave
00:41:18.343 - 00:43:43.103
Well, I think, I think it's great. First of all, I mean, we can all sort of pat ourselves on the back that we're part of this thing. Although I, you know, it's, it's funny.
I'd see a lot of pitch decks right from early stage outdoor companies, and this number comes up quite a bit. It's like, oh, you, you know, we're part of the $1.2 trillion outdoor industry.
And, you know, I always kind of chuckle because, you know, I, I know what the actual numbers say about our little corner of the industry. Right.
The, the, if you look at Circana data, it would say we're about a $28 billion industry. Outdoor retail, like our, our Type of outdoor retail. Not hunt fish, but kind of the outdoor specialty type stuff. Yeah.
28 billion, which, you know, is not nothing, but it's only about 2.3% of 1.2 trillion. So there's a lot in that 1.2 trillion. Everything from hotels and restaurants and, you know, heli skiing and you name it. Right. It's oil and gas.
Yeah, right. I mean, it's. But no, it's cool. But I think that the great thing, though, is that it's showing continued growth and that.
And that we're continuing to outpace we. The greater industry. We're continuing to outpace the overall economy.
Not just from a dollar's perspective, but I think even more importantly from a jobs perspective. Five million jobs now are related to the outdoor economy. Five million.
And that's growing at almost double the rate as the rest of the economy over the last number of years. So people are finding their livelihoods around this, which I think hopefully gives us a little bit more clout in Washington.
You know, we've been trying to get the Explore act passed now for gosh, God knows how long. It finally passed the House in April. There's some revisions. There's a lot of optimism. We'll get it done in the lame duck session here. But.
And it actually passed with zero. Like the ultimate bipartisan bill. There was zero opposition.
I mean, this is just makes good sense legislation about, about, you know, and it's not just, it's not vast funding, $, anything like that. It's just like, let's, let's all figure out how to work together to make it easier to get outdoors and to drive, you know, more outdoor recreation.
It's really straightforward. So. So fingers crossed we get that done. And across the line this year.
Colin True
00:43:43.159 - 00:43:51.183
Well, all right. Well, first edition of. Of a comfort corner where the outdoor industry consigliere. Thanks for coming on, man. We'll. We'll see you next Monday.
Producer Dave
00:43:51.239 - 00:43:53.155
Absolutely. See you then. Thank you.
Colin True
00:43:54.705 - 00:45:12.841
Rock fighters. It's November, which is bad news if you're a turkey, but if you're a retail buyer, it may be the best month of the year.
Because guess who is ready to crush it on your shop floor in 2025. Well, that'd be Royal Robbins. That's right, Royal Robbins. And if you're like, really? Yeah, really.
Royal is one of the true OGs of outdoor brands, part of that early group of California climbers who kicked off the modern era of the outdoor industry right alongside Tompkins and Chouinard of the North Face in Patagonia. So if anyone can step up, they can. I spoke to Royal's brand president, Eric Burbank recently, and they're making moves. They're planning routes.
They're focused on natural fibers, tight merchandising, and a range that knows what it stands for. All stuff that Royal himself would be down with. So Eric will be coming on the Rock Fight soon, and we can dig more into Royal's comeback story.
And I'll tell you, I've been wearing some of their wool hoodies. They feel pretty damn good. So this November, don't be a turkey. Contact your local Royal Robins sales rep today.
All right, so thanks to Owen for coming on. His mic was a little delayed, so he'll have that next week. The audio will be better, folks, but thanks for.
We're excited to have him here, excited for him to be part of the show. But right now, it's time for the parting shot. Going first.
Producer Dave
00:45:12.873 - 00:45:13.885
You're going first.
Colin True
00:45:14.305 - 00:47:16.187
I'm going first. All right, so my parting shot today comes off the heels of a conversation you heard here on the POD last week.
Last week on the Rock Fight, you heard my conversation with adventurer Sunny Strower about the gender gap that still exists in the outdoor adventure community. And as a result of that conversation, I heard from another outdoor industry leader, Cassie Abel of Wild Rye.
Now, Wild Rye is a women's specific outdoor apparel brand.
And in her message, Cassie brought my attention to something that's been happening, that's something that's actually happening this week that I didn't even know about. And I want to highlight for my parting shot. And that something is Women Led Wednesday.
So it started in 2018, and women led Wednesday is a day put aside to support and shop from brands led by women. Now, if you head to womenledwednesday.com, you'll find a list of brands you can support with your dollars.
There's a huge variety of places to support, like Three Legged Coffee, Brewery, Adventures in Good Company, Ewer Switchback LLC, Nara Juliana Bicycles. There are literally 17 pages of brands crossing over a shit ton of categories that you can support.
And frankly, you could probably do most of your holiday shopping using this website as your go to resource. But it's like Lasani and I talked about when I spoke to her. Women in the outdoors are still being held back.
So initiatives like Women Led Wednesday are not only useful, but important to highlight voices in our industry and adjacent industries who are perhaps not getting the attention they deserve as they work to grow their businesses and brands. And as long as There are shitty comments being made by men to folks like Sunny on social media. It's easy to feel helpless.
So, like, you know, how do we change society? Right? These are the kind of the voices that are kind of clicking around our head a lot of times.
And one way is to shop at and support brands that are listed atwomen led Wednesday.com because the more of these brands that are successful, the more it normalizes brands created by and led by women. So go spend some money with these amazing women and these amazing women led brands. This is not a paid spot. I just truly believe in this.
And you can either give all your money to Bezos this holidays or you can spend it in a place like this. That's my parting shot, so I'll go here.
Producer Dave
00:47:16.251 - 00:48:57.853
Well, Colin, my parting shot is actually, shall I say, a dovetail from what you're talking about.
I met Verna at the TRE show and she helps lead up a coalition called Native Women Running, and they are trying to increase representation of Native women in the running world. They put together teams across the country for race events.
Just trying to build kind of awareness around that this is a viable activity for everybody and to participate in the benefits of running in the running community. And it's just one of those. It's kind of a very narrow or focused niche.
And a lot of brands talk about how they want to increase inclusion and they want to do the work. This is a very easy way for you to get your brand involved and make a meaningful difference that is sorely needed in our space.
It combines kind of the conservation efforts and kind of connection to the land that we talk about in the outdoors. And it gives you a chance to actually put some, like I said, action to this. And like you said, you can.
Look, I know you all have the money in your budgets for this, so don't tell me that you can't. You have money to participate in this. Make the call, go to the website, visit what they're doing. It doesn't take a lot and it makes a big difference.
And you want to start kind of moving our space forward. This is how you do it. So Native Women running. We'll do more with them in the future, I hope.
But like I said, it was just one of those conversations that stood out amongst a lot of going songs at the show and one that I think is worthwhile. And let's do this. All right, man.
Colin True
00:48:57.869 - 00:48:58.541
We can wrap it up there.
Producer Dave
00:48:58.573 - 00:48:59.829
Okay, let's do it.
Colin True
00:48:59.957 - 00:49:00.925
Anything else? Are we good?
Producer Dave
00:49:00.965 - 00:49:01.665
That's it.
Colin True
00:49:02.245 - 00:49:25.041
All right. Well, the rock flight, it's a production of Rock Flight llc, our producer today. You heard him. Producer David Karstad. Art direction provided by Sarah.
Make that logo bigger gensert. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And here to take us out is our guy, Chris Demaikes. And he just has a new EP out called Uncharted from Leston.
Jake, you gotta check it out. It's so good. He's here to sing the Rock Fight fight song. We'll see you next time, Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:49:25.113 - 00:50:23.685
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